View Full Version : How would you feel?
Casual Observer
06-19-2004, 10:34 AM
The more I've made myself unavailable over the years, the more I've been approached by women with some clear interest in flinging. Weird.
Not weird--normal. This is how relations between the sexes are supposed to work, but cultured social engineers think that we're supposed to migrate into some collective group hug and therapy session everytime we're in a mixed-gender environment.
It's not that I want a man who is more womanly. You're all wrong. It's that I want a man I can actually share with, one who is open and honest.
But look at what you've written here ET, and you'll see what I'm talking about when it comes to responding intellectually versus emotionally/instinctually.
You speak of a male best friend with whom you share everything and you speak highly of his virtues and the fact that he is wanted and had by many other women...but not you. Intellecutally, he is very appealing to you and serves as an excellent purge and process object--I've been in this position too many times myself, more than I care to recall.
Then you speak of your current (or former?) boyfriend whom you distrusted (perhaps with good reason) and whom exhibits behavior that you say you find unattractive and yet you remain(ed) with him for an extended period of time, despite your reservations and the fact that he wasn't like your best friend. So I ask you, ET:
If you really say you want someone like your best friend--open, honest, and in your view, sexy, masculine and cool--why aren't you pursuing him with all due haste? Though I've never seen your photo or met you in person, I don't doubt that you're a personally attractive and engaging woman, and I certainly don't doubt your sexual appeal, so what's holding you back from all these opportunities? Do you see the intrinsic paradox here?
Repeat this paradox in this country by 160 million times, and you have the inherent differences in relationship paradigms between what people say they want versus what they actually pursue.
Yes, it is an act, just as you said, before when you were being yourself, it wasn't working. I suppose that is because you were choosing shallow women to date.
You said yourself when you were real and not playing some silly mystery game that is wasn't working.... maybe for early 20's women.
Actually, what I said was that when I tried doing it the way it has been presented as normal and real by the popular lamestream media (Oprah, Cosmopolitan, Dr. Gray, et al) I was a miserable failure--because I wasn't that way to begin with and it was unnatural. I wasn't being myself, it was unnatural. And it's unnatural for most men, because--wait for it--we're different than women.
Your supposition that these women must have been shallow is not only prejudicial and baseless, but irrelevant to the discussion.
I'm a private person, and rather introspective. Compartmentalizing isn't something I have to cognitively, consciously do--it just happens naturally that way, as a hard-wired component of personality. This is a trait common to men. Conversely, the "realness" of which you speak (as ill-defined an attribute as there ever was) regarding what are essentially feminized men and the means by which they conduct relationships, is not a natural condition. This is demonstrated by the typically male purpose of communication--to exchange information--where as women communicate simply to communicate; the process of communication is a form of self-therapy for women.
It seems there are more men and women I like in the more forward-thinking regions, where it's okay for a woman to be a "slut" (heaven forbid!), and men consider women equals. Men and women really aren't that different, I am finding. They have just been trained to be.
Being particularly sexually expressive myself (though historically in the context of a long-term relationship), I've never had a problem with a woman that would be defined as a slut; it's just not a dirty word to me. I've always been drawn to women that are innately and acutely aware of their sexuality and the power it holds. These women tend to be more sexual in expression and sex is a much, much larger component of their personality and is well-integrated into their daily lives and that's pretty ideal, in my limited view and personal experience, anecdotal as it may be in this regard.
However, men and women don't need to be trained to be different. We simply are different by biology.
Perhaps I've not explained myself well at all in the previous posts, ET, but my point is simply this:
When I tried--operative word, tried, as in actively, cognitively--to be what women said they wanted (versus what they actually responded to), I was a miserable failure with them, winding up as the best friend in the best case scenario (which, as any man will tell you, is the absolute worst case scenario). When I stopped trying to be something I wasn't and started just being me, my situations, experience and relationships improved immensely and it was a mutually satisfying condition because there were no inconsistencies in my behavior in the eyes of my partner.
I don't wish to bust your balls, ET or to be argumentative, but I'm just not sure you're willing to concede that the way men are today isn't the result of something as temporal and evolutionarily superficial as the introduction of strip clubs and that there's no vast male conspiracy to universally be unfaithful misogynistic assholes that leave the toilet seat up, so I'll leave it at that. :)
Way more than two cents.
erotictonic
06-19-2004, 10:51 AM
The more I've made myself unavailable over the years, the more I've been approached by women with some clear interest in flinging. Weird.
Not weird--normal. This is how relations between the sexes are supposed to work, but cultured social engineers think that we're supposed to migrate into some collective group hug and therapy session everytime we're in a mixed-gender environment.
Nah, I don't think it should be all Care Bear shit. lmao. I don't think men or women should viciously pursue the other gendar... just be yourself and you will attract members of the opposite sex that are like-minded.
It's not that I want a man who is more womanly. You're all wrong. It's that I want a man I can actually share with, one who is open and honest.
But look at what you've written here ET, and you'll see what I'm talking about when it comes to responding intellectually versus emotionally/instinctually.
You speak of a male best friend with whom you share everything and you speak highly of his virtues and the fact that he is wanted and had by many other women...but not you. Intellecutally, he is very appealing to you and serves as an excellent purge and process object--I've been in this position too many times myself, more than I care to recall.
Then you speak of your current (or former?) boyfriend whom you distrusted (perhaps with good reason) and whom exhibits behavior that you say you find unattractive and yet you remain(ed) with him for an extended period of time, despite your reservations and the fact that he wasn't like your best friend. So I ask you, ET:
If you really say you want someone like your best friend--open, honest, and in your view, sexy, masculine and cool--why aren't you pursuing him with all due haste? Though I've never seen your photo or met you in person, I don't doubt that you're a personally attractive and engaging woman, and I certainly don't doubt your sexual appeal, so what's holding you back from all these opportunities? Do you see the intrinsic paradox here?
He's far away from me... or I would be. And no, I will never, ever be attracted to another male like my ex for any real relationship... maybe as a throw-away fuck toy.
Repeat this paradox in this country by 160 million times, and you have the inherent differences in relationship paradigms between what people say they want versus what they actually pursue.
Yes, it is an act, just as you said, before when you were being yourself, it wasn't working. I suppose that is because you were choosing shallow women to date.
You said yourself when you were real and not playing some silly mystery game that is wasn't working.... maybe for early 20's women.
Actually, what I said was that when I tried doing it the way it has been presented as normal and real by the popular lamestream media (Oprah, Cosmopolitan, Dr. Gray, et al) I was a miserable failure--because I wasn't that way to begin with and it was unnatural. I wasn't being myself, it was unnatural. And it's unnatural for most men, because--wait for it--we're different than women.
Your supposition that these women must have been shallow is not only prejudicial and baseless, but irrelevant to the discussion.
Call it what you want.... it is shallow in my mind.
I'm a private person, and rather introspective. Compartmentalizing isn't something I have to cognitively, consciously do--it just happens naturally that way, as a hard-wired component of personality. This is a trait common to men. Conversely, the "realness" of which you speak (as ill-defined an attribute as there ever was) regarding what are essentially feminized men and the means by which they conduct relationships, is not a natural condition. This is demonstrated by the typically male purpose of communication--to exchange information--where as women communicate simply to communicate; the process of communication is a form of self-therapy for women.
The "realness" explanation I gave you should understand by now... it was well explained earlier what I meant. I meant no games, no lies, no bullshit, and openness. That is the real person. Not doing something fake in order to attract members of the opposite sex. I know guys like this... who had good childhoods with proper father figures. You think it's not a natural condition. I think it has been bred... what you see as a child is how you act in adulthood for the most part. It comes from breeding... expreriences. Not from nature.
It seems there are more men and women I like in the more forward-thinking regions, where it's okay for a woman to be a "slut" (heaven forbid!), and men consider women equals. Men and women really aren't that different, I am finding. They have just been trained to be.
Being particularly sexually expressive myself (though historically in the context of a long-term relationship), I've never had a problem with a woman that would be defined as a slut; it's just not a dirty word to me. I've always been drawn to women that are innately and acutely aware of their sexuality and the power it holds. These women tend to be more sexual in expression and sex is a much, much larger component of their personality and is well-integrated into their daily lives and that's pretty ideal, in my limited view and personal experience, anecdotal as it may be in this regard.
I'm glad to hear this.
However, men and women don't need to be trained to be different. We simply are different by biology.
Perhaps somewhat.... but they are bred largely by society. If you don't think we are shaped largely by environment, I don't know what to tell ya'. My example here would be that as I have experienced more and more abuse and learned more and more about men, and hung around them more and seen how they are, I get more and more like them. This is not because I was born this way, but because of my experiences. Some men believe hitting a woman is okay, others don't. It's mainly because they grew up in households where this was happening, usually. You compartmentalize... and your father probably did too. Perhaps I've not explained myself well at all in the previous posts, ET, but my point is simply this:
When I tried--operative word, tried, as in actively, cognitively--to be what women said they wanted (versus what they actually responded to), I was a miserable failure with them, winding up as the best friend in the best case scenario (which, as any man will tell you, is the absolute worst case scenario). When I stopped trying to be something I wasn't and started just being me, my situations, experience and relationships improved immensely and it was a mutually satisfying condition because there were no inconsistencies in my behavior in the eyes of my partner.
I don't wish to bust your balls, ET or to be argumentative, but I'm just not sure you're willing to concede that the way men are today isn't the result of something as temporal and evolutionarily superficial as the introduction of strip clubs and that there's no vast male conspiracy to universally be unfaithful misogynistic assholes that leave the toilet seat up, so I'll leave it at that. :)
LOL. Like I said, it's not all males, just a large majority. Some men think the guys on this site are shallow and silly too. You just put more words in my mouth... same as the care bear shit from earlier. I think I could type until hell froze and you would not understand where I'm coming from lol.
Way more than two cents.
I will agree to disagree. Yes, I am different than most females, I'll agree with that. I've drawn conclusions that yes, the way relationships are basically run in society - marriages - aren't working, and there have to be better ways. Since males and females generally both like to play around - why get married? Have an open relationship. This is happening more and more in the more forward-thinking areas of the world. Change is happening.... and I am evidence of that. Imo, marriages embedded with lying and cheating is a dying existence.
SpinKitty
06-19-2004, 01:19 PM
I disagree that it's having my cake and eating it too. It may be if I was dating the men I claim to dislike. I can't change the world. I can't judge every man I dance for. Some of them I may like, some of them not. Who said I don't think men should go to sc in the first place?
I get your stance totally here. I just disagree with the fact that a person who knows they aren't monogamous should marry and lie to their unknowing partner. Either way - man or woman.
:great: Right On Tonic !
ET quit making me feel guilty That pisses me off ;D
FBR
If that is SpinKittys real ass in her avatar Im in love LOL
FBR
mr_punk
06-19-2004, 04:50 PM
No, not trying to be dramatic, just expressing my feelings. I don't think there's anyway you could understand from a victim's pov.in this instance? probably not. if i had to give you one piece of dating advice it would be this: don't always expect a man's world to revolve around yours, as much as your world may revolve around his.
Ah, you need to find someone that would agree to it. They are out there. Otherwise, you are lying and cheating. Wrong. Way wrong. I can imagine you would be impossible for me to live with...sure, they're out there. i never denied that much, but it's very rare in my experience. exactly, how many people do you think would be willing to enter this type of relationship? a very small few, some, or most?
No, not limit your dating options. You don't tell someone on the first date. lol. If things get serious, insert here. I wouldn't Want to date anyone seriously that wasn't on the same page. What fun is it to date an unknowing fool?no, you wouldn't tell someone on the first date, but the end result would be the same. you won't be dating that person for very long. once again, how many people do you think would willingly accept such a suggestion?
Thanks for being honest. So, lying is fair play in your book of rules. i never said it was fair. i can't be any clearer than that. most relationships aren't equitable in every given situation. both parties don't reach complete agreement in every given situation. one party or the other or both is going to have to compromise or acquiesce at certain points in the relationship just to keep the peace.
See, that is something I now can't understand. If your relationship is not worth enough but to sacrifice it for an HJ at a sc, then why have it?who ever said it wasn't worth it? i suppose, that's the great thing about compartmentalization. if a guy cheats does that mean he's going to leave you for the other woman? does it mean he loves you any less?
I disagree that it's having my cake and eating it too. It may be if I was dating the men I claim to dislike.no, i don't suppose you would. like i said, since you girls do this for a living, it must be difficult to see the conflict of interest. in any case, it's really not so much about the men you're dating.
I can't change the world.well, i'm not asking you to change the world.
I can't judge every man I dance for. Some of them I may like, some of them not.really? and i wonder what it would take to cause you to dislike them.
Who said I don't think men should go to sc in the first place? I would go with my SO, and as long as he told me, I would tell him to go have his fun. I just don't want the cheating and lying - it's unnecessary in my world. And I consider it wrong.actually, i'm not talking about your approval of sc. in any case, you don't mind if your SO goes to sc as long as he notifies you of his intent. however, just how many of your customers do you think tell their SO about their trips to the sc? in my experience, they usually just go without saying a word. do you think they also tell them of times they asked a dancer for her phone number, a date or a BJ? i don't think so.
my point is that although this type of behavior would gain your disapproval. you're perfectly willing to profit from it. of course, i'm not suggesting that you ask each and every customer the circumstances surrounding his visit. however, you can't possibly believe that every customer has the explicit permission or approval of his SO to be there in the first place. so, although you're perfectly willing to judge or criticize the behavior as offensive. i guess, it must be not offensive enough. since, you seem to have no problem working in a place which facilitates this behavior nor does this offensive behavior prevent you from being reluctant from profiting from it possibly at the expense of his SO. now, that's called having your cake and eating it too.
erotictonic
06-19-2004, 10:26 PM
Oy Vay.... I should have expected you guys to run to an AskMen (or Maxim for that matter) article looking for reference. Those two sources are GREAT for isolating the special cases and drawing wide-sweeping generalizations that usually do not apply to anyone near exceptional.
LMFAO! I wish I would've said that.... ;)
erotictonic
06-19-2004, 10:46 PM
No, not trying to be dramatic, just expressing my feelings. I don't think there's anyway you could understand from a victim's pov.in this instance? probably not. if i had to give you one piece of dating advice it would be this: don't always expect a man's world to revolve around yours, as much as your world may revolve around his.
Oh sheesh! lmfao!!!!! Revolving around whose??? The guy I did tonight, or the guy who was begging me to marry him last week???? Are you kidding me????? ::) You are DREAMING..... I am a woman of the new generation.... we know what kind of power and control we have and we use it. YOU giving ME dating advice? LMFAO!!!!! You are paying for sex and women's attention..... I'm gettin' laid whenever I want by mostly whoever I want. Trust me.... I don't need any advice from you in any capacity. lmfao!!! Too much.
Ah, you need to find someone that would agree to it. They are out there. Otherwise, you are lying and cheating. Wrong. Way wrong. I can imagine you would be impossible for me to live with...sure, they're out there. i never denied that much, but it's very rare in my experience. exactly, how many people do you think would be willing to enter this type of relationship? a very small few, some, or most?
Who knows? But if you are not waiting on a match....then you are settling for less.
No, not limit your dating options. You don't tell someone on the first date. lol. If things get serious, insert here. I wouldn't Want to date anyone seriously that wasn't on the same page. What fun is it to date an unknowing fool?no, you wouldn't tell someone on the first date, but the end result would be the same. you won't be dating that person for very long. once again, how many people do you think would willingly accept such a suggestion?
Thanks for being honest. So, lying is fair play in your book of rules. i never said it was fair. i can't be any clearer than that. most relationships aren't equitable in every given situation. both parties don't reach complete agreement in every given situation. one party or the other or both is going to have to compromise or acquiesce at certain points in the relationship just to keep the peace.
No one is compromising ... they don't know! That is just weak.....
See, that is something I now can't understand. If your relationship is not worth enough but to sacrifice it for an HJ at a sc, then why have it?who ever said it wasn't worth it? i suppose, that's the great thing about compartmentalization. if a guy cheats does that mean he's going to leave you for the other woman? does it mean he loves you any less?
Yes. Love never involves lying. You don't know what love is. You're saying it's not worth it every time because you know that if you got caught, that would be the end of the relationship. Therefore, your relationship means no more than to sacrifice it for an HJ in a sc.... pretty fucking low.
I disagree that it's having my cake and eating it too. It may be if I was dating the men I claim to dislike.no, i don't suppose you would. like i said, since you girls do this for a living, it must be difficult to see the conflict of interest. in any case, it's really not so much about the men you're dating.
No conflict of interest. I'm sure you do business with people you don't agree with on a daily basis too. You can't judge everyone you do business with.
I can't change the world.well, i'm not asking you to change the world.
This was attached to something else. It made more sense in context, but you missed it I suppose.
I can't judge every man I dance for. Some of them I may like, some of them not.really? and i wonder what it would take to cause you to dislike them.
Same to you.... I wonder what it would take to cause you to dislike the people you do business with. ???
Who said I don't think men should go to sc in the first place? I would go with my SO, and as long as he told me, I would tell him to go have his fun. I just don't want the cheating and lying - it's unnecessary in my world. And I consider it wrong.actually, i'm not talking about your approval of sc. in any case, you don't mind if your SO goes to sc as long as he notifies you of his intent. however, just how many of your customers do you think tell their SO about their trips to the sc? in my experience, they usually just go without saying a word. do you think they also tell them of times they asked a dancer for her phone number, a date or a BJ? i don't think so.
That's not my business to know.
my point is that although this type of behavior would gain your disapproval. you're perfectly willing to profit from it. of course, i'm not suggesting that you ask each and every customer the circumstances surrounding his visit. however, you can't possibly believe that every customer has the explicit permission or approval of his SO to be there in the first place. so, although you're perfectly willing to judge or criticize the behavior as offensive. i guess, it must be not offensive enough. since, you seem to have no problem working in a place which facilitates this behavior nor does this offensive behavior prevent you from being reluctant from profiting from it possibly at the expense of his SO. now, that's called having your cake and eating it too.
Plenty of people's actions would gain my disapproval. I could be working in a clothing boutique.... am I not supposed to sell a person clothes when they come in just because I disagree with them? Nada. I provide a service, they buy. It's as simple as that.
Just because RJ Reynolds produces cigs does not mean that you have to smoke 2 packs a day. Just because dancers dance does not mean you have to go in an sc and get an hj and cheat on your wife.... we provide a service... we don't control who pays for it, or howso.
erotictonic
06-19-2004, 11:26 PM
Look, the reason why you guys are cheating is because it is FUN... let's admit it. But if you love your fucking wife so much, why not let her have some fun too????? lol. I just got LAID, and it rocked.
That's just insanity.... cheating and lying when deep down, your wife wants to play around too. Just give her the go-ahead, and watch her go wild. Hell, take her to the sc. Have some fun together. Do a threesome. You might even find you like each other again. ......
Casual Observer
06-20-2004, 12:13 AM
PC, your response is so thoroughly laden with elitism and reactionary accusations of misogyny that I hardly know where to begin. And maybe a point-by-point response would achieve little clarification on the issue, and serve no greater purpose. Like you said, we're of different stuff.
Now, I may not be the Master of Ass that PC is, but living in my own "liberal and progressive locale" on the East Coast for 25+ years, I believe I can say with certainty that you grossly overstate the appeal of your top ten percentile men--and I'm not even talking about metrosexual-types either. And I didn't find your bad boy analogy remotely germane to what I was talking about and I think you knew that when you wrote it, but wanted to draw a hyperbolic contrast between your view and mine. But I won't accuse you of intellecutal dishonesty because I know what you were trying to say; I just didn't find it accurate to the discussion.
Your 90/10 split is an interesting viewpoint about how the separation takes place among individuals in pursuit of relationships with like-minded individuals, or perhaps representative of an easy way to make distinctions within a broader population to support an admittedly minority position. Specifically here, it also conveniently makes it easier to believe that one is unique and needs someone equally unusual to be with; everyone likes to think that about themselves--and sometimes it's even true (here on SW/SCJ, I think it to be true more often than not in several categories, based on my few months lurking here...but perhaps I'm not qualified to make such a statement). And I don't even think I necessarily disagree with this viewpoint, but I find your application of the idea to be, distorted, for lack of a better word. Maybe merely biased, which is understandable; you prefer it for a reason, be it anecdotal or empirical evidence. Regardless, there's an assumption that your values are superior in the calculation of where folks stand in your 90/10 split, and that consideration of other values is not really done--thus the M word being liberally used when it's not accurate.
Your reduction of that idea to one of geographical or political boundaries is pretty presumptuous, but maybe not surprising. Indeed, the entire East and West Coasts are not socially akin to Wyoming, West Virginia or Arkansas, but they're also not the anomoly that the SF area is, in case you were not aware. ;)
Simply throwing around the M word doesn't make it stick. How do you determine that condition in an individual by casually rejecting an alternative hypothesis or paradigm that in no way remotely resembles the classical definition of the word?
Your post reeks of condescension and elitist pity, though I'm quite sure you didn't mean to do that. Your other posts don't generally strike me in that fashion.
Two more cents.
PS...glad you enjoyed yourself ET. But I'm not sure which point you're proving anymore with your last post. I'm confused--this happens sometimes, especially when posting at 3:08AM EST. LOL
Have a good night, folks.
polecat
06-20-2004, 12:50 AM
A few clarifications..
PC, your response is so thoroughly laden with elitism and reactionary accusations of misogyny that I hardly know where to begin.
I'm not sure what other terminology can be used to describe someone that actually thinks what that AskMen or the majority of Maxim articles suggests are some sort of gender basis of women.
To actually support something as prolifically biased as "women want to fuck married men" and support such an article as a defining female trait IS misogyny... It's just like saying black people like watermelon is racist.. yet you wont see anyone pointing out and referring to it as the R word.
I can say with certainty that you grossly overstate the appeal of your top ten percentile men--and I'm not even talking about metrosexual-types either.
Here is a gross misinterpretation and embellishment of the information given.
If you'd actually read and tried to understand my points, you'd see very clearly that it results in LESS widespread appeal rather than more. But since life isn't some game of trying to "score as much pussy as we can!" or "he who dies with the most pussy lives!" discussion, I thought we were talking on a more real, human and tangible level.
Appeal is lower, rejection is higher, but hits are more human, longer term, more fulfilling. Obviously lobbying behind being more selective with mates shouldn't possibly be construed as having "wider appeal"... but instead having higher quality. Obviously there may be some men more interested in quantity... others quality.
It should have been pretty clear given the percentages and assertions of sub-sets within the percentages. Finding the RIGHT match is the heart of the discussion.
Regardless, there's an assumption that your values are superior in the calculation of where folks stand in your 90/10 split, and that consideration of other values is not really done--thus the M word being liberally used when it's not accurate.
Another incorrect assumption.
To be more clear.. someone that falls inside my 10% that I find "exceptional" may be in that 90% of what others find otherwise.
You keep trying to judge or label every single facet of one's description and assume it's an elitism or superiority thing when nothing could be further from the truth! People are grey, not black and white. What one person finds exceptional, another finds useless and loathsome.. hence the nature of humanity.
The point being- the component of society that is closer matched for each of us lies in a very slim, narrow percentage of those we come in contact with. This is truly what makes them precious and exceptional to ourselves. It doesn't make them better/worse than the others, just in that comfort zone from which we are compatible.
Simply throwing around the M word doesn't make it stick. How do you determine that condition in an individual by casually rejecting an alternative hypothesis or paradigm that in no way remotely resembles the classical definition of the word?
I never rejected the AskMen hypothesis.. there are indeed women that fit into their category. I simply rejected that this was a gender based trait, or somehow a defining behavior for women.
The only casual rejecting I see are those that continually repeat portrayals of the reverse as "this isn't relevent to this discussion" or "dont find it accurate to this discussion"...
The main difference being- I recognize and acknowledge the other point of view, I just simply draw hypothesis from where it is derrived.. my opinions. Example- the AskMen article.. Are women courious by nature into the unavailable or mystery of a married man? No, not in the slightest. In reality, younger, more naive, self-loathing or otherwise specialized sets of women may be.. but this is not a trait of "women" in general. AskMen and Maxim always try to formulate this kind of swill then a pack of males jump behind it as being some sort of "gospel" or "the way things are"... I simply suggest I not only disagree with the premise, but I also cite why I believe some men lobby behind it.
Cheers
Darren
06-20-2004, 12:54 AM
My first post on SCJ.... read it and weep, ya' fuckers! :D I hope you all welcome me with open arms.
I have recently read the dramatic kissing thread. In lieu of this, I have a question for you guys. If the situation were reversed - your SO was going to SC and kissing dancers or receiving extras or whatever you personally do, and they were lying about it and you found out, how would that make you feel? Do you lie about it? And do you think your SO has cheated? I found that I could feel it when my ex cheated, and it made me look elsewhere emotionally which may have led to physical indiscretions.... :-\
This a fair question and deserves a fair and honest answer.
I have been on the flip side of this. In a monogamous relationship with a woman that strayed.
While I admit it took a long time to get over it, I did get over it, but not until I got past feeling like a victim. There are two people involved in a cheat. The cheater, and the cheatee. Cheatee's want to believe they are entirely victims, but in truth they do share some of the responsibility. Either because they picked a non-monogamous SO to begin with (e.g., someone who looks hot but is obviously flakey and not ready to be monogamous), or because they pushed their SO away. In my case it was the later. Busy at work, and busy with many hobbies, I took the relationship for granted and it hurt her badly.
Yes I did go through a period of thinking all women sucked but it passed. People make the choices that seem best to them and I realized if I was her in her shoes I'd have made the same choice.
There is more to a relationship than perfect monogomy so you have to decide how much else you are willing to lose and I decided to forgive, however...
I don't and never have cheated on my SO, but... even though you forgive, it is like having an arm ripped off. Yes you heal but it is never quite the same again. The pure innocent trust does not come back. That is something a cheater forfeits forever even if the relationship is otherwised salvaged.
Anyway as I said, I don't and haven't cheated, but there is something missing in the relationship that cannot be restored. When I go to an SC the flirting, touching, yes even light kissing, allows me to re-enjoy some of the unblemished feelings I had for my SO that I can't feel for her again, without crossing the line of having sex, or getting off with another woman. I am not sure that entirely makes sense but there it is.
polecat
06-20-2004, 01:28 AM
Fantastic post Darren. Very realistic and quite accurate.
I was in the same situation.. but wasn't able to live with one arm (so to speak)... you're absolutely correct in that depiction.
The concepts of trust and communication that have both been destroyed in a relationship are really difficult things to restore... in many cases, impossible.
I think this is the very basis from which my own (and possibly ET's) belief systems are formed- it's much less destructive to a relationship to be open and honest about one's needs that are unfulfilled and possibly mismatched sexual prowess than the destructive quality that occurs with lying, cheating and endangering an SO without their knowledge.
I'm sure there will be some that disagree with that- it's totally a morals thing. They may see the lying/cheating thing as the less destructive thing or establish it's possible to do this forever to a mate. Other's may simply say the pairing is incorrect from the start and shouldn't occur at all. These are all valid opinions.
Jay Zeno
06-20-2004, 06:47 AM
I don't know. I got to fully trust again. It feels better to forgive than to sport an open psychic wound.
Misogyny, to put it plainly, is hatred of women. Let's not throw the term around too loosely. Some people will, as a rhetorial device, take a somewhat gray statement and rephrase it as extremely black or white in order to argue against it more easily.
Someone can definitely be a philanderer, a womanizer, a Lothario, a profligate, a "playah," without being a misogynist.
Richard_Head
06-20-2004, 10:08 AM
I'm not sure what other terminology can be used to describe someone that actually thinks what that AskMen or the majority of Maxim articles suggests are some sort of gender basis of women.
Geez, give us a little bit of credit PC, just like you, we were agreeing with the hypothesis not taking every word as gospel and applying it to all women, and I'm guessing the rest of the exceptional people here see it that way too.
aggieed
06-20-2004, 11:50 AM
...love has many facets and vagaries.
You know, for a second there, I thought that said "love has many facets and vaginas." :D
erotictonic
06-20-2004, 12:16 PM
Oh sheesh! lmfao!!!!! Revolving around whose??? The guy I did tonight, or the guy who was begging me to marry him last week???? Are you kidding me????? You are DREAMING..... I am a woman of the new generation.... we know what kind of power and control we have and we use it.really? your world certainly seemed to revolve around someone when you wrote:
Yes, I agree that it was totally selfish, as was the rest of the relationship. It was TOTALLY about what he wanted at the time, with NO regards to me. Why did I stay so long? The only thing I can come up with is that I was a stupid moron. Of course, I was trapped in his web of bullshit.you certainly didn't seem exercise your "power and control" then or were you too busy playing the victim and feeling sorry for yourself?
I suppose you are trying to push my buttons, but it doesn't bother me because that was a long time ago. I'm a different person now. Speak to the hand on that one.
You are paying for sex and women's attention..... I'm gettin' laid whenever I want by mostly whoever I want. Trust me.... I don't need any advice from you in any capacity. lmfao!!! Too much.you know, it really doesn't quite work like that for me. i pay for the sex, but not for the attention. you see, they are not one in the same. i go elsewhere for the attention. that's the beauty of compartmentalization. the same principal applies in the sc. i don't go for conversation or fantasy. i'm just there for the mileage. you can find those other things outside of a sc. i just found that it lowers the possibility of getting caught when compared to sleeping or having a relationship with say two or more civilian women at the same. otherwise, you may have to deal with receipts, unexplained phone calls, unexpected absences, people who don't quite understand that it's not a serious relationship, or people who just want more than you can give, etc. it's just one big headache and a lot more work.
Who knows? But if you are not waiting on a match....then you are settling for less.not really. no relationship is an absolute perfect match, ET. however, you can come so close that it may seem that way, but it just seems that way. if you go into any relationship with the idea that the other person is a perfect match. you're bound to be dissappointed. people are individuals and over time, people change, wants and needs change and those changes don't always mesh with the changes of the other person. however, that's not to say those changes are bad. it's just different that's all.
No shit, Sherlock. Tell me something I don't know - for once. And yes, you are settling for less. I didn't say a PERFECT match, I just said a MATCH. And to me, anyone you have to lie to in order to maintain a relationship holds VERY different ideals, and is NOT anywhere near a match.
Yes. Love never involves lying. You don't know what love is. You're saying it's not worth it every time because you know that if you got caught, that would be the end of the relationship. Therefore, your relationship means no more than to sacrifice it for an HJ in a sc.... pretty fucking lowLove never involves lying? ;D ;D. that's nice. you're a romantic. well, love isn't a static emotion, either. it changes over time. the love that a person feels for another in his teens or twenties isn't the same type of love that the same person feels in his thirties or beyond. love has many facets and vagaries. however, that's not to say that you love the person any less, just a bit differently. like i said, people change over time.
No shit, sherlock again. I'm 33. The person that I was at 21 is not even a shadow of who I am now, nor is the person I was a year ago. Another slur in order to push my buttons. You knew good and damn well I'm not 20ish..... ::) Love never involves lying. If you loved someone, you would never want to hurt them by cheating and lying. It's best for them to know. That's how my world, and plenty of others, works. It's got nothing to do with romance, but experiences. Being a cheater and a liar makes me feel low and cheap. Being open and honest makes me feel free as a bird. I want my freedom, I don't want to be bound by lies and deceipt.
No conflict of interest. I'm sure you do business with people you don't agree with on a daily basis too. You can't judge everyone you do business with. sure. like i said, you can have your cake and eat it too, as long as you acknowledge that's exactly what is going on. otherwise, you just create a fool's paradise for yourself. otherwise, it seems a bit hypocritical to judge the behavior when you facilitate and profit from it.
Yea, whatever. You continue to harp on your silly-ass cake and eat it too. I'm beginning to wonder if your brain processes information well. Not meaning to flame, just calling it like I see it. You don't tend to understand logical explanations. You just go back to more of the same. Others have noticed it too.
Just because RJ Reynolds produces cigs does not mean that you have to smoke 2 packs a day. no, you don't have to smoke 2 packs a day. however, at one time, RJ Reynolds also profited from the sales of cigarettes while hiding, refusing to disclose, denying or acknowledging to the public any information about their own findings about health risks of smoking.
I have no idea wtf this has to do with anything. The original reason I posted this was to show that just because I dance, that doesn't mean married men have to cheat, and that I can't find out if each man is cheating when I dance for him. That's clearly not having your cake and eating it too if I unknowingly dance for a married man who's cheating. You seem to want to harp on that, because really you have no explanation for your cheating or lying, so you choose to try and tell me I'm wrong for thinking you're wrong.
Look, the reason why you guys are cheating is because it is FUN... let's admit it.who ever said it wasn't fun. i'm sure that married guys, who lie about going to a sc or anything else, don't go there not to have fun.
whatever..... so what point are you making ?
But if you love your fucking wife so much, why not let her have some fun too????? lol. I just got LAID, and it rocked. Do you think I give a rat's ass where he is right now? lol. Boys watch out... you might be next.well, i never said, she couldn't have her fun too.
Yea, but if she doesn't know you are, then she may be denying herself that. That's unfair. Quit being such a wimpy weakling and tell her you're doing it.
That's just insanity.... cheating and lying when deep down, your wife wants to play around too. Just give her the go-ahead, and watch her go wild. Hell, take her to the sc. Have some fun together. Do a threesome. You might even find you like each other again. ......and what you're suggesting is pretty unrealistic. a threesome? you have got to be kidding. how many women do you think would go for a threesome? all women aren't interested in other women and i don't think too many guys would go for a MFM threeway, either.
You must be pretty naive. Happens ALL the time.
Casual Observer
06-20-2004, 12:19 PM
I think this is the very basis from which my own (and possibly ET's) belief systems are formed- it's much less destructive to a relationship to be open and honest about one's needs that are unfulfilled and possibly mismatched sexual prowess than the destructive quality that occurs with lying, cheating and endangering an SO without their knowledge.
Is anyone really challenging this notion? I don't think anyone here is seriously questioning this concept, other than perhaps Mr. P, and maybe not even then. I won't presume to speak for him.
Perhaps we're talking about a matter of degree (specifically, pertaining to the level and type of communication) rather than absolute and artificial limitations or extents.
Darren
06-20-2004, 12:50 PM
Men and women really aren't that different, I am finding. They have just been trained to be.
I mentioned a book in another posting called the "The Blank Slate : The Modern Denial of Human Nature" by Steve Pinker. Again I recommend reading this. And maybe you can get an idea of the basic essence of the book from the title.
Men and Women are similar in more ways than dissimilar, but there are areas in which they are indeed dissimilar. The reason why I recommend this book is because much of our confusion stems from viewing these issues without considering the thousands (hundreds of thousands) of years that preceeded our modern society. Learning to see things in terms of how we were preceeding modern society (which is a relatively new on the historical scale) and understanding that genetics do play a role in the way we are (we are NOT blank slates, we are in fact products of hundreds of thousands of years of adaptation and we do have drives that are burned into us above and beyond what we learn in society).
If/once you accept this, the difference between men and women in regards to sexual attitudes is surprisingly simple/clear. The difference is that sex for pleasure with a non committed sex partner is a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher risk behavior for a woman than it is for aman. Remember, most of our history preceeds the availablity of birth control. If a woman was to engage in a casual sexual encounter for pleasure only there was a very high risk of her becoming pregnant. While the man could just slip away into oblivion and take no responsibility, there is no way a woman can do the same. For months it would be obvious she is with child for everyone else in her community to see. She would then have a dozen or more years to spend caring for the child, possibly alone.
There are others risks for the woman as well including death during child birth, and possibly woman are at higher risk of sexually transmitted disease.
So to get to the point. Yes woman are more responsible/mature when it comes to having casual sex... this is a result of having a greater consequence/risk factor then the males. There are several other differences between men and women that follow from this difference.
ET, youre getting pissed I can tell LOL MrP loves to debate...he'd argue the fuckin sky is green if you said it was blue LOL Thats just him. Youre an excellent wordsmith and debater so dont get all pissy and go hide on the Pink Site, please. I can see it coming. You deserve more than boring SW lockstep.
FBR
polecat
06-20-2004, 04:44 PM
most men and women don't tell each other everything, most men and women don't tell of their affairs or have open relationships or even want open relationships. most men don't tell of their trips to the sc and most women aren't interested in threeways.
And most men and women that get married also wind up getting divorced inside of two years.
I wouldn't consider following the trends or ideals of "most men and women" to have much redeeming value whatsoever given their proven track record.
Katrine
06-20-2004, 08:20 PM
Uh oh, arguing with the Punkster. I shoulda warned ya, ET.
;)
erotictonic
06-21-2004, 06:09 AM
most men and women don't tell each other everything, most men and women don't tell of their affairs or have open relationships or even want open relationships. most men don't tell of their trips to the sc and most women aren't interested in threeways.
And most men and women that get married also wind up getting divorced inside of two years.
I wouldn't consider following the trends or ideals of "most men and women" to have much redeeming value whatsoever given their proven track record.
Yes. What "most" men and women are doing is not working. Hence the changes occurring in the more liberal areas. So don't give me that bullshit.... it's what "most" men and women do, so it must be right. Alot of people are also realizing that it doesn't work after a few tries, and they are changing. Look at me. Look at the city of San Francisco. I don't see anybody hiding anything there. lol. What's the fucking point? You can see here that I and polecat pretty much hold the same ideas... where is polecat from? San Francisco.... go figure. You guys, lose that small-town mentality and catch up!
mr_punk
06-21-2004, 10:08 PM
ET, youre getting pissed I can tell LOL MrP loves to debate...he'd argue the fuckin sky is green if you said it was blue LOL Thats just him.you got me all wrong, FBR. i know the sky is blue. unfortunately, some people deny that the sky is blue and insist on having me believe the sky is green. :no:
They maintain A relationship, but it's not a good match.if two people believe they are satisfied with their marriage. how would you know, it's not a good match for themselves? telepathy? ::) if you don't mind, let me ask you something out of curiosity. have you ever been married?
How do you know? Speak for yourself.... It really IS region and age-specific. I didn't look at your age, but I would guess you to be a bit older. The majority of people in say, San Francisco, would be interested in all of the above.San Francisco! you might as well add Sodom and Gomorrah to the mix ::). seriously, i never dismissed the notion that it isn't region and age-specific. that very well may be the case. however, using an "extremely liberal" city like SF as a shining example of the societal and sexual values for the rest of the country to follow, is about as useful as using Washington D.C. inside-the-beltway politics as an example of a local political discussion inside a barbershop ::). what makes you think that in areas outside of SF. the people who live there have those same "extremely liberal" values? oh, there may be people who live in those areas, who wouldn't be out of place in SF. however, while you wouldn't blink an eye in SF. it probably isn't the norm nor is it as socially acceptable outside of SF. most people are frightened by things that don't seem normal. after all, isn't this one of the reasons why strippers hide their occupations?
If you have to lie in order to maintain the relationship, like I said, you need to find a closer match. You are betting on the fact that no one is going to be like me.... while you're talking to Me!and i'm sure you realize that you're just one person of a small few on a PMB, out of how many people in the continental U.S.? the odds are really in favor (unfortunately) of my position. your view, is a bit provincial. i'm looking at the big picture. i mean, it may very well be applicable, if we're just talking about SF. however, most of the U.S population don't live in SF. most people won't accept, or hold those same values towards an open relationship outside of SF.
And yes, there are some sort of games going on in any relationship, but alot of them are innocent, and don't involved all-out lying and cheating.innocent? define innocent game-playing, please.
Either way, lying and cheating is damaging to any relationship. It makes your partner look like a fool. I don't want someone I love to look like a fool. I don't even want my friends to look like a fool, much less my SO.you forgot the part about not wanting to look like a fool yourself. that seems to be an important part of your motivation also, right? in any case, exactly how did you catch this guy cheating on you in the first place? i'm always looking for new ways to avoid exposure. ::)
This is supposed to be your life mate, who you trust in more than anyone else in the world.well, what can i say. i'm incorrigible. at least, i told you the truth (or some version of the truth) and that must count for something, right? :mischievous:
You can say "most people", but you don't know that. Speak for your lying, cheating self.well, i know this much, like it or not, most of this country does not have the liberal sexual mores of SF. in europe, it might be socially acceptable for the PM of France to have a mistress. OTOH, it is not socially acceptable by most people in this country for a sitting U.S. President to enjoy a BJ by someone other than his wife under any circumstances. unless, you think there wouldn't have been such an uproar over the issue, if he just had permission from his wife ::). you see, in this country (or should i say plane of reality), we like our violence, but a boob in mixed with our violence results in complaints to the FCC. so, you can ignore the reality if you wish, but do so at your own peril.
And most men and women that get married also wind up getting divorced inside of two years.well, those expectations can be a bitch during the first two years. :)
I wouldn't consider following the trends or ideals of "most men and women" to have much redeeming value whatsoever given their proven track record.marriage isn't bad. it can work fairly well under the right conditions. in any case, you don't have to put much personal stock in the trends or ideals of "most men and women" about relationships or marriage. all you have to do is find what works best for yourself. however, it would be a mistake to dismiss the value that most people do place upon the idea of marriage in this country. if they didn't, there probably wouldn't be so much fervor and excess expenditure of political capital over the idea of two people of the same sex getting married. frankly, i could care less. i say, give them the chance to be miserable or financially ass-raped in divorce court like the rest of heterosexuals. ;D
Yes. What "most" men and women are doing is not working. Hence the changes occurring in the more liberal areas. So don't give me that bullshit.... it's what "most" men and women do, so it must be right.uhh..i never stated that what "most men and women" do was right or wrong. i'll leave judgement up to you. since, you seem to think that people would be better off, if you ran their lives for them. my only point is show you that lifestyle choices like threesomes with the neighbor's wife or open relationships isn't the norm for most of the population. look, you don't have to follow their example. you don't have to accept their choices for yourself. it's not a dictatorship. however, your flippant dimissal and denial of the actual reality of the issue is a bit hubristic.
erotictonic
06-22-2004, 05:52 PM
ET, youre getting pissed I can tell LOL MrP loves to debate...he'd argue the fuckin sky is green if you said it was blue LOL Thats just him. Youre an excellent wordsmith and debater so dont get all pissy and go hide on the Pink Site, please. I can see it coming. You deserve more than boring SW lockstep.
FBR
Thanks, FBR. Nah, I wasn't pissed, maybe a little irritated. Any enjoyment I received from arguing with him is quickly diminishing, however. Heh. Now I'm getting bored *yawn*. Nah, I'm not going away. You can't get rid of me that easily. ;)
erotictonic
06-22-2004, 05:58 PM
ET, youre getting pissed I can tell LOL MrP loves to debate...he'd argue the fuckin sky is green if you said it was blue LOL Thats just him.you got me all wrong, FBR. i know the sky is blue. unfortunately, some people deny that the sky is blue and insist on having me believe the sky is green. :no:
They maintain A relationship, but it's not a good match.if two people believe they are satisfied with their marriage. how would you know, it's not a good match for themselves? telepathy? ::) if you don't mind, let me ask you something out of curiosity. have you ever been married?
How do you know? Speak for yourself.... It really IS region and age-specific. I didn't look at your age, but I would guess you to be a bit older. The majority of people in say, San Francisco, would be interested in all of the above.San Francisco! you might as well add Sodom and Gomorrah to the mix ::). seriously, i never dismissed the notion that it isn't region and age-specific. that very well may be the case. however, using an "extremely liberal" city like SF as a shining example of the societal and sexual values for the rest of the country to follow, is about as useful as using Washington D.C. inside-the-beltway politics as an example of a local political discussion inside a barbershop ::). what makes you think that in areas outside of SF. the people who live there have those same "extremely liberal" values? oh, there may be people who live in those areas, who wouldn't be out of place in SF. however, while you wouldn't blink an eye in SF. it probably isn't the norm nor is it as socially acceptable outside of SF. most people are frightened by things that don't seem normal. after all, isn't this one of the reasons why strippers hide their occupations?
If you have to lie in order to maintain the relationship, like I said, you need to find a closer match. You are betting on the fact that no one is going to be like me.... while you're talking to Me!and i'm sure you realize that you're just one person of a small few on a PMB, out of how many people in the continental U.S.? the odds are really in favor (unfortunately) of my position. your view, is a bit provincial. i'm looking at the big picture. i mean, it may very well be applicable, if we're just talking about SF. however, most of the U.S population don't live in SF. most people won't accept, or hold those same values towards an open relationship outside of SF.
And yes, there are some sort of games going on in any relationship, but alot of them are innocent, and don't involved all-out lying and cheating.innocent? define innocent game-playing, please.
Either way, lying and cheating is damaging to any relationship. It makes your partner look like a fool. I don't want someone I love to look like a fool. I don't even want my friends to look like a fool, much less my SO.you forgot the part about not wanting to look like a fool yourself. that seems to be an important part of your motivation also, right? in any case, exactly how did you catch this guy cheating on you in the first place? i'm always looking for new ways to avoid exposure. ::)
This is supposed to be your life mate, who you trust in more than anyone else in the world.well, what can i say. i'm incorrigible. at least, i told you the truth (or some version of the truth) and that must count for something, right? :mischievous:
You can say "most people", but you don't know that. Speak for your lying, cheating self.well, i know this much, like it or not, most of this country does not have the liberal sexual mores of SF. in europe, it might be socially acceptable for the PM of France to have a mistress. OTOH, it is not socially acceptable by most people in this country for a sitting U.S. President to enjoy a BJ by someone other than his wife under any circumstances. unless, you think there wouldn't have been such an uproar over the issue, if he just had permission from his wife ::). you see, in this country (or should i say plane of reality), we like our violence, but a boob in mixed with our violence results in complaints to the FCC. so, you can ignore the reality if you wish, but do so at your own peril.
And most men and women that get married also wind up getting divorced inside of two years.well, those expectations can be a bitch during the first two years. :)
I wouldn't consider following the trends or ideals of "most men and women" to have much redeeming value whatsoever given their proven track record.marriage isn't bad. it can work fairly well under the right conditions. in any case, you don't have to put much personal stock in the trends or ideals of "most men and women" about relationships or marriage. all you have to do is find what works best for yourself. however, it would be a mistake to dismiss the value that most people do place upon the idea of marriage in this country. if they didn't, there probably wouldn't be so much fervor and excess expenditure of political capital over the idea of two people of the same sex getting married. frankly, i could care less. i say, give them the chance to be miserable or financially ass-raped in divorce court like the rest of heterosexuals. ;D
Yes. What "most" men and women are doing is not working. Hence the changes occurring in the more liberal areas. So don't give me that bullshit.... it's what "most" men and women do, so it must be right.uhh..i never stated that what "most men and women" do was right or wrong. i'll leave judgement up to you. since, you seem to think that people would be better off, if you ran their lives for them. my only point is show you that lifestyle choices like threesomes with the neighbor's wife or open relationships isn't the norm for most of the population. look, you don't have to follow their example. you don't have to accept their choices for yourself. it's not a dictatorship. however, your flippant dimissal and denial of the actual reality of the issue is a bit hubristic.
Whatever.... the obvious differences of opinion can be summed up:
1) you think it's okay to lie and cheat, and i don't.
2) your ideas are old-school, mine are progressive.
Now, let's agree to disagree.
THE END.
mr_punk
06-22-2004, 09:36 PM
no problem. however, i would be careful using the word "obviously". since, you obviously failed to realize that:
1) i never said it was okay to lie and cheat. i never said it was wrong to lie and cheat, either :). people lie on a daily basis depending on the circumstances however, unlike yourself. i do realize that sometimes, lies arise out of necessity rather than immoral reasons. futhermore, there are also many different types of lies (ie: innocent game-playing ::)) and they may not all be equal in the eyes of the different indiviuals. it's not as black and white as you believe.
2) SF isn't the center of the world and it in no way represents the entire U.S. population. it's just a slice and not the whole pie.
3) no, i'm not old school. i'm just being pragmatic. feel free to be progressive as you like. however, your progressive ideals about alternative lifestyles sweeping the nation and becoming an societally accepted practice is just that, an ideal. it's may very well change in the future or perhaps not, but that really isn't the case at the moment. you really shouldn't get so wrapped up in your ideas that it's clouds your perception of the present reality.
4)on a more positive note. i'd like to add one more obvious difference you missed: someone once said (FBR perhaps?) that the sc is all about denial for both customers and strippers. so, you should be congratulated. you do fit the norm in that respect. ::)
erotictonic
06-23-2004, 12:07 AM
no problem. however, i would be careful using the word "obviously". since, you obviously failed to realize that:
1) i never said it was okay to lie and cheat. i never said it was wrong to lie and cheat, either :). people lie on a daily basis depending on the circumstances however, unlike yourself. i do realize that sometimes, lies arise out of necessity rather than immoral reasons. futhermore, there are also many different types of lies (ie: innocent game-playing ::)) and they may not all be equal in the eyes of the different indiviuals. it's not as black and white as you believe.
2) SF isn't the center of the world and it in no way represents the entire U.S. population. it's just a slice and not the whole pie.
3) no, i'm not old school. i'm just being pragmatic. feel free to be progressive as you like. however, your progressive ideals about alternative lifestyles sweeping the nation and becoming an societally accepted practice is just that, an ideal. it's may very well change in the future or perhaps not, but that really isn't the case at the moment. you really shouldn't get so wrapped up in your ideas that it's clouds your perception of the present reality.
4)on a more positive note. i'd like to add one more obvious difference you missed: someone once said (FBR perhaps?) that the sc is all about denial for both customers and strippers. so, you should be congratulated. you do fit the norm in that respect. ::)
Jesus H. Christ.
Kat and FBR, you were right.
What part of "THE END" do you not understand??????