View Full Version : Double Standard - Take 2
Kittie
08-02-2004, 06:48 AM
Personally I think it's fucked up to ask us to choose between our current income (the assumption of course being that the majority of it comes from dishonest men) or having the knowledge that all my customers were honest (and the assumption that it would mean a drastically reduced income because it's so obvious that I make all my money from people who lie).
It's fucked up because it's unfair to assume that the majority of men who go to strip clubs are dishonest. There's no way that you could ever prove such a thing unless you gave a lie detector test to every man who ever went to a strip club.
It's fucked up that you feel the need to find a way to bring it to our attention that there are some men who lie to their SO's. As if we didn't know that. As if we are just mindless money-driven machines with no sense whatsoever of the human condition.
I think it's fucked up that there is the assumption that we don't think about these things because if we did, then we'd start to feel guilty about it. Why in the hell should I feel guilty about someone else's choices in life???
Now, say I have a customer, and he tells his wife that he doesn't go to strip clubs. But his wife doesn't quite believe it and so she comes in to the club and shows me a picture of her husband and asks me if I've ever seen him or danced for him before.......and I tell her no.....now that would be something for me to feel guilty about. That would be me participating in the lie.
I'll say it once again that I am not responsible for the actions of my customers. The only actions in this world that I am responsible for are my own. As long as I am honest with myself and honest with the people in my life, then the way I see it I am doing all that I can do.
If you still want me to answer the question...........I choose to continue doing my job to the best of my ability; I choose to remain truthfull; I choose to make as much money as I can to help support myself and my family.
Moneywise
08-02-2004, 07:22 AM
Dayum... How the hell did I stumble upon this mudfest? I must have taken a wrong turn at the fork in the road.
:sneaks back out while no one's looking and rushes towards Funprovocativehotsextalk Drive:
Wrong turns can produce heart attacks. One must be careful from this point on.
Kittie
08-02-2004, 07:43 AM
Totally off topic, but I just wanted to say that the dog in Moneywise's avatar is totally adorable. ;D
mobius7
08-02-2004, 08:06 AM
Question: How in the flying fuck do you know that strippers are getting the bulk of their money from guys that are lying? YOU DON'T. Stop thinking that just because you are a liar, everyone else is, and a little lying is "human" and okay. Not in my book. Your last post is incredibly hateful, and yes, this shouldn't even be an issue.
Polecat's posts are fucking dead-on, as usual.
More later when I feel like it.
I will answer your question, although you didn't answer mine. :)
You are so absolutely correct. I don't know strippers/entertainers/sex workers get the bulk of their money from lying men. Just pulled that out of my ass. Of course, looking at this situation, does the percentage of 'lying men' even matter? So its OK of only 10% of your money comes from lying guys but not OK if 90% does? Such a firm foundation for your argument. You say even 'a little lying' isn't OK, but you gladly take money from those little liars.
I'm not married, and am not currently serious with anyone, so I am not one of those lying customers. Maybe I will be at some point...but then again, maybe I won't. I simply brought up a question that has obviously bothered people who aren't at peace with their choices.
Personal responsibility, and the idea that ones actions/choices do affect others....such a scary thing to consider.
Kittie
08-02-2004, 09:26 AM
Going back to the original thought about whether dancers are contributing to a double-standard or committing an act of hypocrisy by claiming to value honesty but providing services to customers who may be dishonest.............
I don't think that the values or morality of a dancer can be judged by the actions of her customers, as she has no control over what actions her customers choose to take in their personal lives. Her morality and level of hypocrisy can only be judged by her own actions.
For instance, lets say we have a dancer named Sativah. She says that she values honesty above all things in her relationships, and demands it from her SO. One night her boyfriend comes home from a night out with the boys. She asks him where they went and he says they went to the local sports bar, had a few drinks, and watched the game. The next morning, as Sativah is getting ready to do some laundry, she notices that the shirt her boyfriend wore to go out has glitter all over it. As a stripper, she knows that glitter on a man's shirt usually means he's been at a strip club. (That or he's been stealing her makeup; either way, there's somethng he's not telling her.) Totally pissed off, she storms into the living room and proceeds to rip him a new asshole.
But that's funny, because just the week before, she told her boyfriend that she couldn't lend him any money for his car payment because she needed it to make a payment on her car. However her car note was already paid up for the month; she just wanted to keep the money so she could buy herself some new outfits for work.
Is it a double-standard? Absolutely. She demands honesty from her BF, but doesn't seem to think it's all that important for her to be honest with him. It's also pretty hypocritical of her to say that she values honesty above all things when it's obvious that she doesn't.
This is just one example of how strippers (like everyone else in society) can sometimes be guilty of having double-standards and being hypocritical. I'm pretty sure that kind of stuff happens all the time. Actually, after spending as much time in the dressing room as I have over the years, listening as the drama unfolds, I'm absolutely positive that this shit happens all the time.
Can dancers be guilty of hypocrisy? Of course. But it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not a customer is a moral or honest person. You can't judge one person by the actions of another.
mr_punk
08-02-2004, 10:50 AM
I am done with this one.i did try to warn you, Darren. ;D
polecat
08-02-2004, 12:42 PM
You guys are right. Drug dealers, tobacco companies, gun runners, sweatshop owners, slum lords, you know what, there are no interdependencies... these are all just good hard working people trying to make a buck.
For as long as you continue to try and shove strippers as rubbing elbows in this company, you will always get this kind of response... because, quite frankly, it's distorted and incorrect.
Strippers work in legal, accepted locales and are providing ENTERTAINMENT for adults. They are there to make money providing such entertainment and by all local and regional acceptance and values.
This differs wildly from a drug dealer or gun runner model. Every single dime made by these is by knowingly committing a crime or with prior knowledge that their chosen career IS unworthy or otherwise morally objectional. In order for a stripper to fall into something even comparable would be:
1) The customer is married or has an SO.
2) The customer has lied to his wife or SO.
3) Between the customer and his SO, one of the two have a morality measurement system that believes lapdances are a form of 'cheating'.
#3 being the biggie since by comparison, most dancers do not truly believe what they do is 'cheating' since many also have boyfriends/husbands and do not consider going to work every day and grinding away on guy's laps as having any comparison to taking the guy home and fucking them... nor is there any real emotional bond or likewise. It's a form of entertainment for $$ and nothing more.
What I find of particular interest is the mindset that suggests the opposite (i.e. strippers are obviously like drug dealers or gun runners, and are in the business of encouraging and accomodating 'cheating' and 'lieing") would also suggest that having a stripper for a girlfriend or wife would be unacceptable.
So the question really becomes- those giving this 'double standard' mentality, would this disqualify you from ever having a relationship with a stripper? I mean, after all, they are the devil's lapdog spreading vile sins every day in exchange for money. Their very existence is simply daily debauchery of inflicting sin upon married and attached men after all, right?
Darren
08-02-2004, 05:50 PM
You guys are right. Drug dealers, tobacco companies, gun runners, sweatshop owners, slum lords, you know what, there are no interdependencies... these are all just good hard working people trying to make a buck.
For as long as you continue to try and shove strippers as rubbing elbows in this company, you will always get this kind of response... because, quite frankly, it's distorted and incorrect.
Strippers work in legal, accepted locales and are providing ENTERTAINMENT for adults. They are there to make money providing such entertainment and by all local and regional acceptance and values.
This differs wildly from a drug dealer or gun runner model. Every single dime made by these is by knowingly committing a crime or with prior knowledge that their chosen career IS unworthy or otherwise morally objectional. In order for a stripper to fall into something even comparable would be:
1) The customer is married or has an SO.
2) The customer has lied to his wife or SO.
3) Between the customer and his SO, one of the two have a morality measurement system that believes lapdances are a form of 'cheating'.
#3 being the biggie since by comparison, most dancers do not truly believe what they do is 'cheating' since many also have boyfriends/husbands and do not consider going to work every day and grinding away on guy's laps as having any comparison to taking the guy home and fucking them... nor is there any real emotional bond or likewise. It's a form of entertainment for $$ and nothing more.
What I find of particular interest is the mindset that suggests the opposite (i.e. strippers are obviously like drug dealers or gun runners, and are in the business of encouraging and accomodating 'cheating' and 'lieing") would also suggest that having a stripper for a girlfriend or wife would be unacceptable.
So the question really becomes- those giving this 'double standard' mentality, would this disqualify you from ever having a relationship with a stripper? I mean, after all, they are the devil's lapdog spreading vile sins every day in exchange for money. Their very existence is simply daily debauchery of inflicting sin upon married and attached men after all, right?
But you ignored the philip morris examples, and the other legal activity examples. As long as we all keep hearing whatever parts we want to hear and ignoring the rest we will all just go on talking to our own walls. So this thread is useless. Nobody, except for the guys that lie, are able to admit even the slightest bit of imperfection.
Worse is as if we are just trying to suck up to dancers to get a shot at their pants then join the liars. If you are a dancer that just wants to hear what you want to hear, join the liars.
I agree truth rocks. So when I hear a dancer with an obvious personality disorder (though no fault of her own, usually due to some fucked up father who has abused his daughter - they should rot) I am not going to pull anymore punches. If you beg for truth, truth you get. I am not trying to get into any dancer's pants because I don't cheat, so.... I am going to do them a favor. I am going to tell the truth. And the truth some of the dancers suffer from personality disorders.
Let's all tell the truth - I agree.
Kittie I loved your analogy. I always stop by the local car wash before going home and invest a buck in the vacuum system to suck away all traces of glitter LOL
Of course there are double standards..on both sides. Im laughing at the male suckup pontifications Ive seen here LOL Mutual exploitation is a given. Dancers want our money regardless of what personal situations we might have going on. I doubt any of the dancers I know give a shit about Mrs FBR. Likewise as customers, we want the dancers grinding our dicks. To me its a very staightforward business transaction, not a great intellectual exercise.
FBR
polecat
08-02-2004, 06:11 PM
But you ignored the philip morris examples, and the other legal activity examples. As long as we all keep hearing whatever parts we want to hear and ignoring the rest we will all just go on talking to our own walls.
Nope. Not one bit. I listed 'tobacco companies' in my list as well. Go back and re-read the reply. Same-same.
Every cigarette that is sold is absolutely, 100%, completely and utterly known to be at the health expense of someone else. Also, you're drawing a 'legal' line where I was drawing a 'moral' line.
To create that equivalence is to also secure that every single lapdance is contributing to the unfaithfulness or a lie of a man. It assures that every single lapdance a stripper gives is therefore morally objectionable and unethical. Clearly, this isn't the case.. and there is no laboratory proven 'cancer' from lapdances... so whether or not the activity even CAN be measured as cheating or not is still completely incomparable. It's a matter of varying opinion where one's feelings on a lapdance happens to fall.
And the 'get inside one's pants' and casting anyone that disagrees with you as being troubled or having issues was predictable. It's a sick and sad result but completely expected.
Darren
08-02-2004, 06:35 PM
No you didn't, you said
"This differs wildly from a drug dealer or gun runner model. "
You just quoted me and picked out the two the illegal ones because it suited your argument. It is right there above you. Where is philip morris in that quote?
and yes, since we are going to tell the truth, yes I think you are kissing ass and you are not helping them by doing so. Your making their problem worse by telling them what they want to hear, not what they need to hear.
There is reason why Erotic has had life time of miserable failures with men - it has something to do with her personality, but she is totally 100% oblivious to it. She is hot so guys tell her what she wants to hear. She is completely fuckin crazed about men that lie to her - completely has to be in control or she can't bear it. But you want to paint her as a saint. Go on and do it. She will just continue to be fucked up and never come to realize her problems have something to do with her. But you are not helping her at all. You may be making you feel good, and giving her temporary good feelings, but in the long run your just feeding into her own self deception. She projects her hatred on to men and doesn't have a clue as to why she has been cheated on and she never will - she is hot chick so there will always be some guy that comes along and tells her how right she is, whatever to get into her pants.
Honesty sucks when people see things differently doesn't it?
Well, I see things differently. My guess is she is nightmare to live with, but she can't see it, and your not helping by telling her how wonderful she is. Unfortunately she never will see it - being hot is going to cause her to spend a life time of men lying to her and telling her is she is just fine. Sad, but not unusual.
Darren
08-02-2004, 06:46 PM
To create that equivalence is to also secure that every single lapdance is contributing to the unfaithfulness or a lie of a man. It assures that every single lapdance a stripper gives is therefore morally objectionable and unethical. Clearly, this isn't the case.. and there is no laboratory proven 'cancer' from lapdances... so whether or not the activity even CAN be measured as cheating or not is still completely incomparable. It's a matter of varying opinion where one's feelings on a lapdance happens to fall.
Nobody has ever said and you and the women keep throwing this bullshit into the discussion. What so hard to understand about nobody blaims the dancers for the men lying? I have said that half a dozen times and the dancers and you keep saying the exact opposite. It is just bullshit. Guys lie because they are horny and they can. They don't blaim their horniness on the dancers.
Please guys, stop the crap and bullshit.
"NOBODY BLAIMS THE DANCERS FOR THE MEN LYING" The Men take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for their lying.
and if you say they do again and ignore that sentence you are blind or just sucking up.
polecat
08-02-2004, 06:47 PM
No you didn't, you said
"This differs wildly from a drug dealer or gun runner model. "
I didn't list every, single, solitarty quoted reference since I made the assumption that the quoted reference was a quoted reference.
I also assumed that since I didn't refer to tobacco companies being an exception that you'd be able to figure out I wasn't creating exceptions. There were none. All the same. That's the reason for quoting parts of a post.
You just quoted me and picked out the two the illegal ones because it suited your argument. It is right there above you. Where is philip morris in that quote?
Tobacco companies.. now, if I stated specifically philip morris, I'm sure we'd now have 2-3 replies of you going "What about Marlboro? Or Winston-Salem?" kind of bullshit nonsense.
If I were trying to do your current accusation ("picking and choosing") then why am I making it VERY clear there were no exceptions? ALL the examples you listed fall under the SAME model: the drug dealer/gun runner model. Tobacco companies included! Your list was 100% accurate as given... in it's entirety. Slumlords, sweatshop owners.. the whole nine yards.
I'm glad you think anyone that has healthy opinions about the industry, women in general and relationships as obviously 'kissing ass" or "sucking up" or whatnot. From someone that insists upon pushing blame on others, away from the source of the real issue, I take that as a compliment.
I also find it funny that you would be one condemning others you know nothing about as being either suckups, liars, or troubled. It's a grandstanding tactic to point at any moment in a person's life that was less than perfect as being the evidence of your "your a stripper and therefore you are fucked up morally and all my own blame is washed away" mentality.
Very typical.. very expected.
Darren
08-02-2004, 07:00 PM
I also find it funny that you would be one condemning others you know nothing about as being either suckups, liars, or troubled. It's a grandstanding tactic to point at any moment in a person's life that was less than perfect as being the evidence of your "your a stripper and therefore you are fucked up morally and all my own blame is washed away" mentality.
Very typical.. very expected.
Dude, what percentage of her messages are rages against men? Be blind as you want, but it is also very typical that there is always some guy that will suck up ... and very expected.
And as expected, you threw in a sweeping generalization to make yourself look good.
"your a stripper and therefore you are fucked up morally and all my own blame is washed away" mentality."
No, I said Erotic has psychological problems. I didn't make some sweeping generalization that all strippers are fucked up morally. Infact I've said quite the opposite. Morally I have no objection to stripping.
Your throwing that in there to make yourself look good. Let us be honest, that is not what I said, you know it is not what I said, but you really don't care. You just want to look good to the stippers. Maybe it will increase your chances of getting laid? Let just keep on whipping up bullshit and ignoring what people are saying - what matters is who do the strippers like enough to get laid right?
The problem here is we really don't want any truth, we just want us to be one big happy family, so let's do that instead.
All strippers are perfect.. repeat after me... we shall nothing negative about them lest we not get a crack at getting in their pants.
polecat
08-02-2004, 07:01 PM
There is reason why Erotic has had life time of miserable failures with men - it has something to do with her personality, but she is totally 100% oblivious to it.
I just had to add..
While your perspectives may be correct from your own experiences and past history, most women will understand this is the perspectives given from a man that has a history of lieing, cheating, paying for sex, etc.etc.
I'm not trying to draw elitism behind different opinions, but the differing histories ARE going to result in different outlooks upon things. Some who has lied, been lied to, cheated and been cheated upon, and/or maintains a sex life through paid-for sex only is obviously going to have a vastly different perspective from people that don't experience all of the above. Herein lies the difference in opinion and why such discussions can clearly not hope to reach agreement.
And for the record, if any stripper here or anywhere else threw themselves at me, I'd decline the offer. I have NO desire to get inside ANYONE'S pants.. and your repeated flocking to such hilarious and ill-founded nonsense is absolutely hysterical. My track record proves this. So, nice try but try again. I dont have enough time for the women in my life the way it is. It's comedy to suggest I'd be trying to add more LOL.
Darren
08-02-2004, 07:10 PM
There is reason why Erotic has had life time of miserable failures with men - it has something to do with her personality, but she is totally 100% oblivious to it.
I just had to add..
While your perspectives may be correct from your own experiences and past history, most women will understand this is the perspectives given from a man that has a history of lieing, cheating, paying for sex, etc.etc.
Well let me just add then that you can't even fucking imagine how bad I feel for her. I've spent half a lifetime with a woman who has a personality disorder (borderline personality disorder). And let me tell you I don't for a minute blaim the woman. It is not her fault at all. It was brought on by a fucked up father who should rot in hell for screwing her over.
But, let me also say that having spent 10 years professionally and half a life time personally dealing with issues like borderline personality disorder, I know in the long run the only really kind people are those that don't become co-dependents. You can't save people that are drowning by jumping in with them and drowing with them, but nor can you save them by telling them they are fine. YOu do infact have to be honest, and that hurts like hell. Very few women that have BPD or other related personality disorders are lucky enough to have people clear minded enough to tell them the truth.
But dont think for a minute I don't fucking feel sympathy for them.
Darren
08-02-2004, 07:27 PM
And for the record, if any stripper here or anywhere else threw themselves at me, I'd decline the offer. I have NO desire to get inside ANYONE'S pants.. and your repeated flocking to such hilarious and ill-founded nonsense is absolutely hysterical. My track record proves this. So, nice try but try again. I dont have enough time for the women in my life the way it is. It's comedy to suggest I'd be trying to add more LOL.
Good, but since we are being honest it is a human nature (in particular a guys nature) to do what we can to keep our options open.
And I have declined the offer myself (because I really do love the hell out of my SO and the thought of hurting her hurts to bad to really go through with), but that doesn't mean I didn't suck up in their presence to keep my options open. See I can be totally honest. I admit my personality is not entirely self consistent. On the one hand I'll suck up to a dancer to increase my odds. But then given the opportunity, I can't go through with it. But then honest people are aware that is human nature - we have inconsistent wants and drives in our psyches.
Darren
08-02-2004, 07:49 PM
Personally I think it's fucked up to ask us to choose between our current income (the assumption of course being that the majority of it comes from dishonest men) or having the knowledge that all my customers were honest (and the assumption that it would mean a drastically reduced income because it's so obvious that I make all my money from people who lie).
Well kitty, I am honest mode so...
I would tell you to choose your income. It is not your fault at all if men come that lie their SOs. There you go babe. Don't feel even a bit of guilt about it. But here is the caveat...
I'll only get mediaval on your ass (in a good kind of way :)) if you go on a rampage about how fucked up it is that men lie about going to the SC while at the same time you are collecting the $$s.
Do you get it? Infact it is not you're responsibility to police your customers. But on the flip side don't be a dumb ass and bury your head in the sand and pretend some of your customers don't lie to their SOs, or worse, don't get all get righteous on them because they suck for lying.
I think it is fine that you strip. I think it is great that you strip. DO THE BEST FUCKING JOB YOU CAN AND TURN THOSE MEN ON AND MAKE A MILLION.
But don't get all judgemental on your customers either. If you do decide to get judgemental then I'm going feel judgemental towards you. If you don't get judgemental, then I will treat you the same way and I fully support your job and hope you make millions.
Darren
08-02-2004, 09:20 PM
Of course there are double standards..on both sides. Im laughing at the male suckup pontifications Ive seen here LOL Mutual exploitation is a given. Dancers want our money regardless of what personal situations we might have going on. I doubt any of the dancers I know give a shit about Mrs FBR. Likewise as customers, we want the dancers grinding our dicks. To me its a very staightforward business transaction, not a great intellectual exercise.
FBR
I couldn't fucking agree more.
And the thing is a guy can want his dick ground on the one hand, while still loving the hell out of his SO on the other. No hate for women or dancers is involved. Sometimes it is just a feeling of lonliness, maybe the guy isn't getting much affection from his wife, sometimes not even that, it just a cheap thrill, but he doesn't hate.
Now I short diversion on women and personality disorders. The most common of which is borderline personality disorder...
The problem is women with borderline personality disorder (not their fault, but I have included some links below)) can't even fathom that humans can have such contradictory drives because they themselves are unable to acknowledge their own contradictory drives. Everything has to be black or white, all good or all bad. If a man lies in any way, he is 100% evil. Women with BPD can't comprehenend a middle/grey ground. Nor are they able to see their own flaws because to do so would make them completely flawed. Thing is guys like us, we can acknowledge our flaws... we don't like them, but we know we have them.
The problem with a woman with borderline personality disorder is that it is just beyond them to comprehend that humans can love their SO on the one hand and yes, even go out to a SC on the other hand and like it and absolutely no hate is involved. Instead they project their hatred for the opposite sex on to the opposite sex and assume this must be the reason why they were cheat on. In fact most men don't cheat for anymore reason then because it feels good and they can. On the down side, when it comes to women with personality disorders, the reality is they are incredibly diffult to live with .. it is never ending bottom hole of want, control, and need. There is no making them happy because no matter what you do, they perpetually stir up crisis in order to be reassured they are loved and in control. The drive their SOs away in a constant stream of tests ... tests that their SOs invariably fail, validating the BPDs belief system that nobody loves them as much as they love themselves, that the opposite sex is evil, ... see HTTP links for more...
The unfortunate thing about women with BPD or related disorders, there is always someone new in their life who buys their story, they are just victims, nothing is their fault, and who re-affirms for them them that they are just fine, that the problem really is with everyone else. Those who are co-dependents mean well, but in fact do more harm then good.
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html
http://www.stanford.edu/~corelli/borderline.html
http://www.bpdcentral.com
Darren
08-02-2004, 09:46 PM
Every cigarette that is sold is absolutely, 100%, completely and utterly known to be at the health expense of someone else. Also, you're drawing a 'legal' line where I was drawing a 'moral' line.
Come on people, are we all dense?
Philip Morris couldn't actually give a rat's ass if kids or people smoke. The government forces them to put those labels on the box, but let's be fucking honest about. Honestly it's in their best interest if kids and people smoke like chimneys. It is all totally fucking legal (like stripping), but point is the more people that smoke, the more money they make. But I will bet when it comes to the executives, to their own children, a different set of rules apply. They don't want our children dying of cancer. Just all the other little fuckers that they want $3.00 from.
It is all very well and good when a Philip Morris executive gets all holier then though telling the world they don't smoke and the risks are right there on the label. It is all legal too. I am sure they are superior individuals for it, but they do without out a doubt benefit from smokers, even smokers who ignore the label.
Let's stop BSing. Dancer's really couldn't give a rat's ass either if men lie if they are making money. They only care about lying when it directly affects them. What is so fucking hard to understand about the simple analogy. Enough lying and sucking up. When we don't put our fucking heads into the sand it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to acknowledge that dancers don't give a rat's ass if men lie to their SOs as long as they are making a buck. They just claim it is not their responsibility. Fine, it is not Philip Morris's responsibility if you smoke. That is the analogy. Just don't bitch when you are a victim rather than a benificiary and all is well.
erotictonic
08-02-2004, 11:58 PM
OMFG! This is THE funniest shit I have read in quite a while!!!! You don't like to be called a LIAR do you Darren? lmfao! I have healthy ideas about what relationships should be.... they shouldn't be embedded with lies, and if you are lying about who you are, then you are conning someone. Sad but true. It pisses you off, doesn't it Darren? lmfao!
So far I have a personality disorder, and I am somehow causing men to cheat and lie to me. LMFAO! Is your wife causing you to lie to her too???? Thanks for the diagnosis Darren, this is coming from someone I have never met, and I have chatted with through text for all of two hours max. LMFAO! Do you think I'm like this in real person, you fucking dingaling? You don't know me AT ALL. I just can't believe the idiocy of someone who would try to diagnose someone over the fucking internet that they have never met and haven't even chatted with more than two hours. Darren, you are making a fucking fool of yourself.
Now, according to the gospel of Darren, God help us: strippers, who are providing entertainment, are like Philip Morris and crack dealers. And polecat is supposed to tell us we are hypocrites because that will "help" us in our denial. Thank you Darren for your awesome insight. I am so impressed. The one who is in denial is you, Darren. You tell yourself that everyone lies, so that you can feel better about being a lying bastard yourself. Everyone doesn't, and NO, after all of the bullshit you have pulled to try and make it so, lying is still not seen as right by any standards in any society.
Now, thank you to all who have participated in this lively discussion, but I see no need to reply, since Darren won't understand it anyway. You have not comprehended one post in this entire thread correctly Darren, which is why I couldn't care less what you think.
I don't really care whether you or anyone else thinks I am a hypocrite. I hold myself with pride and dignity, I am intelligent, and I expect the same from people that I hold relationships with.
Goodbye.
Kittie
08-03-2004, 01:50 AM
Personally I think it's fucked up to ask us to choose between our current income (the assumption of course being that the majority of it comes from dishonest men) or having the knowledge that all my customers were honest (and the assumption that it would mean a drastically reduced income because it's so obvious that I make all my money from people who lie).
Well kitty, I am honest mode so...
I would tell you to choose your income. It is not your fault at all if men come that lie their SOs. There you go babe. Don't feel even a bit of guilt about it. But here is the caveat...No, it's not my fault. To say that it is would be to imply that I have control over others' lives and actions. And the last time I checked, I wasn't omnipotent.
I'll only get mediaval on your ass (in a good kind of way :)) if you go on a rampage about how fucked up it is that men lie about going to the SC while at the same time you are collecting the $$s.I haven't yet and I don't intend to. Perhaps you're confusing me with some of the other pinkies.
Do you get it? Infact it is not you're responsibility to police your customers. But on the flip side don't be a dumb ass and bury your head in the sand and pretend some of your customers don't lie to their SOs, or worse, don't get all get righteous on them because they suck for lying.As I already stated in an earlier post, I am aware that some of my customers may be lying. As to what percentage, I can only guess, but like I said before, given the wide variety of people who come through the club doors, I'm sure that at least one of them is teling lies to someone.
I think it is fine that you strip. I think it is great that you strip. DO THE BEST FUCKING JOB YOU CAN AND TURN THOSE MEN ON AND MAKE A MILLION.Thanks for your blessing. I intend to do just that.
Darren
08-03-2004, 03:55 AM
OMFG! This is THE funniest shit I have read in quite a while!!!! You don't like to be called a LIAR do you Darren? lmfao! I have healthy ideas about what relationships should be.... they shouldn't be embedded with lies, and if you are lying about who you are, then you are conning someone. Sad but true. It pisses you off, doesn't it Darren? lmfao!
Actually, no, it doesn't piss me off, but you are incapable of understanding that normal people don't have this obsession over lying men that you have and can hold conversations about less than perfect situations without internalizing it.
I am somehow causing men to cheat and lie to me.
Part of your personality disorder, you like to turn everything into a conversation about you, or view it as an attack on you. when it has nothing to do with you. Nobody ever said you are causing them to cheat and lie but you are incapable of understanding an issue from a 3rd person point of view. You have to turn into a personal attack so that you can be the key figure in the discussion, the center of attention. Well, it wasn't about you personally, nor did any guy ever say you (or any dancer) makes them lie. You can keep on hearing that because it makes you feel good to think we are attacking you, but sadly, we are not. Not everything is about you.
Do you think I'm like this in real person, you fucking dingaling? You don't know me AT ALL.
Yes, I bet you are exactly like this in person. And this type of behavior is going to keep on driving men away.
Now, thank you to all who have participated in this lively discussion, but I see no need to reply, since Darren won't understand it anyway. You have not comprehended one post in this entire thread correctly Darren, which is why I couldn't care less what you think.
You wanted the truth, no lying, so you are getting it. And the truth is you come across like a woman with some serious emotional problems, particularly with regards to men and men who you can't control every aspect of their life (the one's who lie to you). You are trying to make the topic a topic about you and your agenda which is to yell some more about evil lying men. It is not all about you.
Darren
08-03-2004, 06:07 AM
I haven't yet and I don't intend to. Perhaps you're confusing me with some of the other pinkies.
Thanks for your blessing. I intend to do just that.
No, it is cool, you were honest that you know some of your customers are lying to their SOs.
The thing is that I don't even have any problem with Philip Morris selling cigarettes. In fact I would say as long as they are going to be in the business of providing tobacco products they should sell the best damn product they can. Now they'd have to live in a cave to believe that their customers are all healthy, over 18, moderate smokers... they know full well they make money off of children (that sneak smoke), elderly that should have quit long ago, people who's spouses disapprove of smoking (like my next door neighbor who is wife just gave him hell again for smoking but he is too addicted to quit), or those who really don't want to accept responsibility for their own actions (the one's who sue later and blaim Philip Morris for their own choice to start smoking).
The problem for me would be is if Philip Morris was spouting a bunch of crap about the weak morale character of people who become addicted to smoking. And maybe some of the executives even tell their children something like, who knows, but that would be a contradiction/double-standard akin to what mobius started this thread with. Then I would have a personal problem with it because on the one hand Philip Morris would be casting moral judgement on their customers while at the same time thriving off their business.
On the flip side some people do have a problem with Philip Morris because they do see that they thrive off the addictiveness of cigarettes, and the reality is they benefit because of a kind of human imperfection (we get addicted to some substances). Are they responsible though for people's addiction? Personally I don't think so, I think it is clearly a choice and people should take responsibility for their own choices. But not everyone agrees with me on that. Some people feel that the contradiction between their business and the effects on our society and the individuals is not okay. Same with stripping really. You can find plenty of people that think of strippers as whores, and temptresses. That is not me, but again you'd have to live in a cave not to be aware of that point of view.
See, isn't it just fricken wonderful when people post viewpoints, trying to look at both sides of issue, without internalizing it and turning it into a personal issue? :)
Katrine
08-03-2004, 10:03 AM
Well stated Darren.
We all lie to ourselves. Or if we cannot, then we self-medicate in various ways to squelch the little voices in the our heads.
Me, I am extremely cogniscent of the wedding bands, finger paint stains, and paunchiness that come with the territory of "married man". I am just too jaded to care. So, maybe that is number 3 way of dealing with the truth. Self-denial rounds out the categories and appears to be the most debate provoking explanation for a simple question of, how do you cope?"
Jay Zeno
08-03-2004, 10:29 AM
Darren, I don't think you're any more qualified to diagnose erotic with BPD here than I am to diagnose you with OCD.
Be that as it may, whatever that term means......
Is there a whiff of hypocrisy for a given dancer to complain about cheating men-pigs while knowingly catering to them and making money off them? Sure, you could argue that.
Dancers make that near-sex experience available - but are they to blame for someone's infidelity and/or dishonesty? Of course not. Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
Darren
08-03-2004, 10:32 AM
Well stated Darren.
We all lie to ourselves. Or if we cannot, then we self-medicate in various ways to squelch the little voices in the our heads.
Me, I am extremely cogniscent of the wedding bands, finger paint stains, and paunchiness that come with the territory of "married man". I am just too jaded to care. So, maybe that is number 3 way of dealing with the truth. Self-denial rounds out the categories and appears to be the most debate provoking explanation for a simple question of, how do you cope?"
Self-denial is a demon that we all struggle with (if we are being honest with ourselves). It is hard to see our own flaws.
With regards to where you stand on the dancing, you are honest with yourself about where you stand, you are not judgemental of the customers... what could be cooler then that? To me nothing. I have no trouble with the idea that we have conflicting drives/wants/needs. As I said, really there was no judgement in the question. It is just an exploritory question. Hey as far as I am concerned the Philip Morris peeps could say "yea, you know what, we don't care if people are dying ... we are in it for the money". Okay well it is honest, and while I might thnk the attitude stinks on some level, I respect it because it is an honest no BS statement.
Katrine
08-03-2004, 01:14 PM
"yea, you know what, we don't care if people are dying ... we are in it for the money".
Sounds pretty accurate to me,but I am evil and I don't believe that people are inherently good.
Here, take a morality quiz and see where you stand.....
http://www.outofservice.com/morality
Katrine
08-03-2004, 01:20 PM
BPD
http://www.medleague.com/Articles/Medical%20Topics/Borderline.htm
Interesting.
Darren
08-03-2004, 02:11 PM
BPD
http://www.medleague.com/Articles/Medical%20Topics/Borderline.htm
Interesting.
These are better descriptions...
http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/basics/main.shtml
http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/psychology/781/bpd-dsm.htm
Splitting and fear of abandonment are two of the most telling traits, and they must be INTENSE and long standing. Fear of abondment takes on various forms (e.g., constantly "testing" in a relationship for reassurance; obsessive fear that one is being lied to or fear that a loved one will leave and not return; controllling others and needing to know where they are at all times, etc.).
Following is a definition of splitting from the book I Hate You, Don't Leave Me by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:
The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes and villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile another is good and bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another person. At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally devalued and dismissed the next.
Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two contradictory states atone time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely unaware of one feeling state while in the other.
When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do, sooner or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished to the dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in other to preserve the all-good image of the other person.
Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying to reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the sense of his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more dramatically and frequently.
sadbuttrue
08-03-2004, 05:22 PM
:yawn:
This is not a T.R.:
I had a great time at the SC last nite. It was a belated set of birthday dances. I didn't ask the current fave whether she was still with her S.O. She has never asked me if I have an S.O., though I believe I have told her I don't. I don't care! She doesn't care! It's just dance to either of us, like actors who made love on set. Not quite that good (shucks). We go home and that's it.
I told her a whole bunch about my recent situation with the ATF and how I probably would not be able to dance with her or the ATF if they were in the same club, which may happen.
(I do tell dancers about other dancers).
I did not tell the fave that what I really wanted was to spend intimate time with the ATF, because I still am nuts about her. The only reason I did not tell her is that it would cause problems between them if they worked together. Is it lying, NO, I implied that there was more to tell, but I would not tell her because of that.
This has almost nothing to do with anything. I'm just using it to imply that telling the truth the best that you can is the best policy.
As far as I can see, the simplest explanation to all of it, is that if SC-ing is cheating to your S.O. , it is. You can either like it or not. If you want to continue a relationship with someone and continue doing something they consider is cheating, be my guest. It's not a good thing, if you want to keep the relationship. (That is not a judgment, but it's simple cause and effect). That's your choice.
There are some relationships that tolerate this kind of activity out in the open. I don't believe they will last forever, like some would like you to believe. There was one guy in an SC who said that his wife literally sends him out once a month to go to an SC, because he comes back hornier than hell and they fuck like rabbits afterwards. Do I believe,if that's true :eyebrow:, that that will always work. No. It's a good story, though.
Do I believe that an S.O. to an exotic dancer will have a perfect relationship. No, there will be rocks in the road, that he may not be able to get by. And the situations will be harder to get by than in non-dance relationships.
Exotic dance is legal. There are parts of it that are not and that S.O.'s will not approve of no matter what the situation.
Anyway, I had a good time at the SC last nite. Miss J was lovely and she...
>>>Sad<<<
:grouphug:
Darren
08-04-2004, 08:03 AM
"yea, you know what, we don't care if people are dying ... we are in it for the money".
Sounds pretty accurate to me,but I am evil and I don't believe that people are inherently good.
I don't believe people are inherently good or bad, they are what they are, each trying to maximize their positions in life. It is a ballet of wants and we win some and lose some, sometimes winning (or losing) at another's expense. Some people become enraged or emotionally distraught at the thought that maybe they really do what they do, not because it for the moral good, or for someone else's benefit, but because it is for their own benefit.
There is a really excellent book I read called "The Extended Phenotype : The Long Reach of the Gene" by Richard Dawkins. One of the (many) ideas brought out in this book is that we benefit from the group benefiting. An example, we put in place laws against stealing, because overall everyone benefits from agreeing not to steal. Some people will internalize this, I am a GOOD person because I don't steal. But in fact they don't steal because they (overall) benefit from liviing in a society in which people don't steal.
There are few true saints among us, and even they do what they need to do to maximize their position, to fill an empty spot in their soul's so to speak.
Many people like to think of themselves as saints, but very few really have any really strong conviction that extends much beyond how things negatively affect them. Most people don't like to hear this about themselves (and I will add people with BPD actually become enraged a this kind of thinking - they simply cannot view themselves in any form of negative light as they only understand absolute good and bad; to think of themselves in this way would require them to think of themselves as absolutely bad).
Those who heavily moralize against others, while benefitting from other's immoral behavior often get called on it for being hypocrites or extortionists. That one is not so hard to deal with either - we are all very good at practicing denial. The great thing about denial is it so easy to deny living in denial, leaving us with a nice guilt free view of ourselves.
erotictonic
08-06-2004, 03:45 AM
I totally agree as well. You wanna know the true theory behind why I refuse to accept lying in relationships? Because I was a victim of someone who conned me for years into thinking he was one person but he was not..... Boy was I pissed off when I found out.... I turned down tons of dick, and some of it extraordinary, to remain faithful. How would you feel? Years thrown away to someone you think is one person but they are NOT! And turning down nights with rock stars for that fucker!
Anyway, I think the question remains:
How are we supposed to know? I don't know if I am dancing for a cheating liar. Am I supposed to stop dancing? No, I will do business with people I don't like in any environment. There's no way to avoid it. I can't change the world. Do you understand that? I have no faith in the fact that you will. It gets rather old when you post explaining a concept thoroughly and then get the same ole song and dance.... same ole thing over and over. There are some truly close-minded people on this site. People around here constantly post info they guess at, and put words in people's mouths, and make just insane jumps in logic, but I don't have the patience or the time to debate it.... they truly wouldn't understand it anyway.
Darren
08-09-2004, 07:22 AM
I totally agree as well. You wanna know the true theory behind why I refuse to accept lying in relationships? Because I was a victim of someone who conned me for years into thinking he was one person but he was not..... Boy was I pissed off when I found out.... I turned down tons of dick, and some of it extraordinary, to remain faithful. How would you feel? Years thrown away to someone you think is one person but they are NOT! And turning down nights with rock stars for that fucker!
I can't relate because when I found out my sweetie had cheated on me it what I hurt. We had something special, between the two of us. Sex was something special that we shared between the two of us and noone else. I didn't feel I was giving something up (or someone else) to be with her. I wasn't pissed off that I had turned down so much pussy, or had missed out on fucking "rock stars". Sounds like you are really more concerned about how much dick you missed out on during that time then with the relationship. So stay single and fuck rock stars. You should be happy you are free to do what you want.
Besides, I hear most rock stars don't make very good long term BFs/Husbands anyway.. seems there are always women throwing themselves at them because they are rock stars, women that don't really care if they already have GFs/Wives. And I hear rock stars spend way too much money at strip clubs paying for other women to grind their dicks. So go fuck rock stars and skip trying to have an exclusive/long term relationship with one.
p.s. I had something to do with being cheated on. She is a good woman, but I was too busy at work and with hobbies. It is amazing what a difference it makes in life when you stop being a "victim" in life and take on some responsibility for your own outcome in life and the outcome of your relationships.
Anyway, I think the question remains:
How are we supposed to know? I don't know if I am dancing for a cheating liar. Am I supposed to stop dancing? No, I will do business with people I don't like in any environment. There's no way to avoid it. I can't change the world. Do you understand that?
You can do something about your incessant blaiming of men for having lied to you, and take some responsibility for who you hook up with, and your own behavior in relationships. You feel morale outrage when it is you who is lied too, but you feel none when it someone else doing the lying and you are receiving cash. Big deal. Joiin the rest of the world who has no real conviction behind their morality beyond that they don't want to be victims. Spend less energy raging against hateful lying men, and a more time introspecting your own issues and you will be happier for it in the long run.
Jay Zeno
08-09-2004, 03:42 PM
hmmm... nahhh.
Where I hadn't seen enough to trust a diagnosis....errr, opinion before, now it looks to me like you're rewording what she says (you'd say it was focusing on her real intent, but it looks like rewording to me) in order to support your diagnosis... errr, opinion. It's a real stretch, at least for me.
I'm not looking forward to the response to this, but tally-ho.
polecat
08-09-2004, 06:15 PM
Big deal. Joiin the rest of the world who has no real conviction behind their morality beyond that they don't want to be victims. Spend less energy raging against hateful lying men, and a more time introspecting your own issues and you will be happier for it in the long run.
Thanks for finally clarifying and bringing closure on half the thread of blame displacement (i.e. who's trying to get laid and who's trying to keep their options open) with that clearly expected kind of response.
It's obvious to anyone that has been controlled, manipulated or otherwise in horrible relationships that the fault most definately lies within them and not the other party. ::)
And of course, it should be acceptable because- well, ".. join the rest of the world .." since those that are morally objectionable and unethical are obviously the status quo.. humans are just like that! She should just get used to it and grin/bear it. Hell, it's likely her own damn fault! lol.
Spoken like a true liar/cheater and sociopathic manipulator.
Of course, any mention of dissent- that women CAN do better, and yes- the world doesn't just consist of liars, cheaters and losers, and they should have strong enough self-esteem to recognize they dont want anything to do with this, and seek good, earnest caring people that actually have functioning guilt and remorse... will always be met with the displacement of 'getting laid' or the like, which is comedy given how blissfully opposite the sex lives of those two different angles truly is.
I'm just happy I don't live in that world.. and there are a great deal of empowered, savvy, wonderful, sexy ladies that also don't subscribe to that controlling and manipulative nonsense as well.
Darren
08-09-2004, 06:39 PM
Big deal. Joiin the rest of the world who has no real conviction behind their morality beyond that they don't want to be victims. Spend less energy raging against hateful lying men, and a more time introspecting your own issues and you will be happier for it in the long run.
Thanks for finally clarifying and bringing closure on half the thread of blame displacement (i.e. who's trying to get laid and who's trying to keep their options open) with that clearly expected kind of response.
It's obvious to anyone that has been controlled, manipulated or otherwise in horrible relationships that the fault most definately lies within them and not the other party. ::)
You don't know that. For all you know she was a complete fucking nightmare to live with. Maybe the person who suffered was the guy. You are hearing one side of the story. Yes, it can suck to be in a horrible relationship. Unfortunately it could well be that the horrible monster in the relationship was her.
And of course, it should be acceptable because- well, ".. join the rest of the world .." since those that are morally objectionable and unethical are obviously the status quo.. humans are just like that! She should just get used to it and grin/bear it. Hell, it's likely her own damn fault! lol.
Grin and bear what? And yes it might well be the failed relationship is her own fault. And no I don't buy her morale bullshit. You do, I think it is just a bunch of complete bullshit she spouts.
Spoken like a true liar/cheater and sociopathic manipulator.
Actually no I have kept my dick in my pants...but it seems from what I have read on the SW site someone here has done some cheating... but then there was no morale outrage about that. Just one of those mistakes. Ah well, lying and cheating arent such bad things .. as long as we arent the ones being lied too.
Of course, any mention of dissent- that women CAN do better, and yes- the world doesn't just consist of liars, cheaters and losers, and they should have strong enough self-esteem to recognize they dont want anything to do with this, and seek good, earnest caring people that actually have functioning guilt and remorse... will always be met with the displacement of 'getting laid' or the like, which is comedy given how blissfully opposite the sex lives of those two different angles truly is.
Earnest caring people express guilt and remorse - she has expressed none - it is just all the man's fault. You buy that story, I don't.
I'm just happy I don't live in that world.. and there are a great deal of empowered, savvy, wonderful, sexy ladies that also don't subscribe to that controlling and manipulative nonsense as well.
And there are a lot of complete psychos that use sex as a tool to get what they want... you've chosen to assume that her story of victimization is completely true. I have not. I think there is another side to this story and I think you are just feeding into her self deceipt. I also think you are smoking screening behind the liberated male viewpoint... but if you are wrong, if she is fucked up, you are just making her problem significantly worse. Oh of coarse it is possible you are right, just a poor victim, but it is also possible you are very wrong and her problems with men have something to do with her. I am giving her the power to change that by changing herself. You are just confirming for her she is just a poor victim in life and her fucked up relationships have had nothing to do with her. Makes you look good, but you may be doing her significant harm feeding into the self deception. Of course I could be wrong too, but the whole thing with you are a liberated male, and I am not... way off the mark bud (but we will just have to disagree on that).
Jay Zeno
08-09-2004, 07:07 PM
But nothing I said particularly backed the "opinion". Did you even read the articles on BPD?
No. Better things to do. I've heard enough in my life of BPD, OCD, PTSD, and other Axes I and II stuff to not spend my recreational time plowing through that.
And don't read today's Ladies Only on the SW site
I never read Ladies Only.
Here's how I see it, Darren. I know that you disagree.
On August 2:
I am done with this one.
Now several thousand words later, you're rewording what people say to bolster your argument, you are hypothesizing about things that could happen in someone's mind or their actions or their possible actions, and you are responding with floods of responses to sometimes trickles of critique.
I can wear out a topic as well as anyone. I'm assuming that you're still at it because something you might say at this stage might be persuasive to someone.
I'll disagree with that.
Have at it.
erotictonic
08-09-2004, 09:36 PM
Darren,
You are honestly creeping me out. I can't believe you are following me around the boards. You have some strange obsession or something. Sheesh... this is exactly why I would never tell anyone in real life how I really feel - there are just too many freaks out there. I use this board to rant, because I can be anonymous. It's good therapy. Darren, you sure know how to beat a dead horse, eh? What reason would i have to lie here? No one knows who the hell I am, that's why I come here, so I can let it all out and tell people how I feel for once. It would be easy to understand why you would think I was lying, since you do. But everyone doesn't live by your morals. Sure, i have made mistakes in my life, everyone has. I want to know when i said I was perfect. But that's what they were - mistakes. I was raised by a sociopath, and I had to figure out for myself what was right and wrong. I made a lot of mistakes along the way. If I had something to hide, I would be hiding it. I already said I lied when I was younger... there is nothing unfortunate about you knowing that. If I cared about people knowing it, I wouldn't have posted it. No, I'm not a cheating liar, I was when I was a kid. But I grew up, and stopped copying what I saw others do. You grow up, you are a grown man with your own life. Your lies can in no way be seen as "fucking up". You know exactly what you are doing... you are conning someone, and if she finds out, you are screwed. That's the real difference, if you are willingly lying continuously and you choose to do that, then you are conning someone. It's a fact, not an opinion. You are conning someone into thinking you are someone you are not. End of story. As for the rest of my life, it's my business, unless I post it here. I didn't ask for your advice, and honestly, you never say anything I dont' already know or haven't thought of. I'm WAY ahead of you there, bro. You telling me about living with a "rock star" is like me telling you how to design your software... it's just ignorant and laughable, Darren. I usually don't try to talk about things which I know nothing about.... most of my ideas have some basis and aren't based entirely on speculation. You don't have to believe me or anyone else on these boards, and I don't care whether you do or not. I know who I am, I know my past, and I have a plan for my future. I have a right to say whatever the fuck I want on these boards, and if I want to say I dislike someone, I can. No running back over to the pink site for this girl... i am empowered enough to say whatever the fuck I believe in whether you guys like it or not... and that I think, says that I am doing better than alot of women. I'm no wimp, and Darren doesn't like it when a woman tells him what she thinks, he somehow has to turn it around to place the blame on her for his lies, or make her look bad to make himself feel better about himself. No, I don't have any guilt whatsoever, I have come to terms with everything I have ever done, every mistake I have ever made, I am in no sort of denial whatsoever. I know what I think is right or wrong and that is the code that I will live by. If you don't like my opinions, don't like them, hate them if you want to. But don't try to pull me down in the sewer with you because I won't go there again. I've been there, and I don't belong.
You have gone WAAAAAYYYYY out there! Your ideas are speculation to the core, as Jay has pointed out. LOL. Where do you come up with these crazy ideas? Why would you have a reason to? You want to make sure I live by the same morals that you do, so that it will make you feel better. You want to discredit me, because I threaten you. Women like me could blow the roof off of your little lying world. You surround yourself with like-minded men, I don't fit in with you and your friends. You hang around people who will reinforce your pathos so that you don't have to believe you are doing anything wrong - you are all liars. Irl, no one tells anyone they don't agree with that. They just avoid people they don't like, which is what would happen between us irl. But here, I can confront you with what I really think, and that threatens you and your world. In your world, there probably is no one that doesn't think like you do, why would someone who is not a liar want to hang out with someone who was? So therefore, you may really not think we exist. Don't worry about me - I am completely aware of myself and others, I pretty much can pinpoint the motivations of people. I was raised by a sociopath and I had relationships with two of them for years. I have been surrounded by them. I also worked in strip clubs for years. I believe I have enough people experience to be able to see just about any type of bullshit at this point. I came from a small town and it was tough at first, I got pummelled in a lot of ways in the world when I left the area I was from. It's a very common situation for young, naive women from small towns to be preyed upon by men.... but I am fully capable of taking care of myself now, and I don't need your speculation or help. I don't intend to get in any more relationships with sociopaths, nor with liars. They repulse me now. And believe me, I would know. No more denial for this girl. I am empowered now, and you don't like strong women, do you Darren? You want the wimpy ones you can get away with lying to. My problem was that I wanted to believe that people were inherently good.... and I chose to see the good in people, while denying the bad. No more of that. The answer to the good/evil question posted earlier is this: Some people are inherently good, some are evil.
People are sending me pms too telling me you are a whackjob. I just think you are in deep, deep denial, and people in denial will argue anything in order to hold on to that denial. Been there and done that, but I escaped. It was tough. Good luck. You don't have to believe me, you can hate me and assume anything you want about me, I couldn't care any less, because honestly, i don't have a whole lot of respect for you. But that doesn't change the fact that you lie continuously and God Knows what else to your wife, and that only YOU are accountable for that. It's your fucking fault, and I hope you get busted, because you shouldn't be sacrificing your relationship.
Of course these are my opinions, you don't have to agree with them, you can all think whatever the fuck you want about them. I am just glad to have a place to rant. Like I said, it's good therapy.
erotictonic
08-10-2004, 01:30 AM
Nah, i don't agree with once a cheater always a cheater. I was a cheater when i was younger, I think a lot of people are but they grow out of it. How old are you? You are probably just experimenting right now, but it is best to be honest and just tell the guys you don't want anything serious right now, but you would like to date them. It's not good to toy with other's emotions. The guys are probably cheating too if they are young.
The above is my post from LO, posted to someone who has posted because she is afraid something is wrong with her and she wants to change and not be a liar and a cheater. Someone told her "once a cheater, always a cheater" which I disagree with. Some people do make mistakes, if they don't know who they are yet. This is not the case with Darren. He is not 18. He is fully aware of the choices he is making. So this is where Darren is fabricating his idea that I am a liar and a cheater.
Darren
08-10-2004, 01:54 AM
You are honestly creeping me out. I can't believe you are following me around the boards. You have some strange obsession or something.
Don't be silly and twist reality around to make yourself the center of the world.. I just stumbled across it reading the links that are on the main site. Actually I wish pryce would stop linking the LO stuff on the main site.
No, I'm not a cheating liar, I was when I was a kid. But I grew up, and stopped copying what I saw others do.
I am glad to see you admit to having some mistakes in the past - so have we all - but the difference is about taking responsibility for them vs blaiming those mistakes on others. I snipped a lot of that out. Basically you blaimed your cheating and lying in the past on others (e.g., "copying" others, being raised by others with problems, being around others with problems). It wasn't your fault. You are a just a victim.
On the positive side you say you won't do it again in the future... but the future is of course wide open. When people take no responsibility for their past choices, they tend to make the same mistakes in the future choices (given the opportunity). While I do appreciate your strong stance on lying now, it really only matters if you actually do live up to it in a long term relationships in the future.
Lying/cheating is not the only thing that tears relationships apart. Too many people think that if the don't "cheat" that gives them a license to do whatever they want to their SO a relationship. Not so, there are many other ways to abuse people in relationships.
The answer to the good/evil question posted earlier is this: Some people are inherently good, some are evil.
Well, of course I have to say "of course". People with BPD believe exactly that. People are good, or evil... not some mix of good and evil, it has to be one of the other.
The problem of course is, that they themselves are never evil. If they commit mistakes, it becomes someone else's fault they made those mistakes. People with BPD have to believe this because they can't admit they have their own evil traits. They are innocent. If others make mistakes, they are cast as all evil (or as all good and the person with BPD excuses their mistakes as being the fault of someone else, e.g., the person's parents).
It is fine to want to rant. We don't need full agreement. Just don't expect complete agreement with your rants .... e.g., if you rant about the wrongs someone did you, expect that someone (such as myself) it is going to eventually turn the rant around on you and ask the questions challenging your own perception.
Darren
08-10-2004, 02:16 AM
Nah, i don't agree with once a cheater always a cheater. I was a cheater when i was younger, I think a lot of people are but they grow out of it. How old are you? You are probably just experimenting right now, but it is best to be honest and just tell the guys you don't want anything serious right now, but you would like to date them. It's not good to toy with other's emotions. The guys are probably cheating too if they are young.
The above is my post from LO, posted to someone who has posted because she is afraid something is wrong with her and she wants to change and not be a liar and a cheater. Someone told her "once a cheater, always a cheater" which I disagree with. Some people do make mistakes, if they don't know who they are yet. This is not the case with Darren. He is not 18. He is fully aware of the choices he is making. So this is where Darren is fabricating his idea that I am a liar and a cheater.
Fair enough regarding having misread that with regards to your attitude on once a cheater always a cheater. I don't believe that either... people can change, and they can make mistakes, and not make them again.
But no, I have never cheated on my girl friends, not when I was younger either. It is not because I didn't have the desire too, but I always had the good sense to draw a line and say no. I have had plenty of opportunities, and allowed things to go a bit farther then they should have while drunk (e.g., I have had women kiss me and try to get their hands in the pants), but then I always put a stop to it. Even drunk I have had the good sense to say no, this isn't right and stop and keep my dick in pants.
By 18 I was taking responsibility for my choices and already working two jobs. And yea I do make mistakes still, though I try to limit them, but I don't kid myself into believing I am perfect now, or blaim my mistakes of the past on others or on youth or whatever. You are basically saying it was okay for you to cheat on the past because you didn't know yourself or it was due to youth. So no blaim for you, you have the excuse you need and you can draw a line in the past at wherever you need it to be to feel like the choices were out of your control.
erotictonic
08-10-2004, 02:29 AM
You are honestly creeping me out. I can't believe you are following me around the boards. You have some strange obsession or something.
Don't be silly and twist reality around to make yourself the center of the world.. I just stumbled across it reading the links that are on the main site. Actually I wish pryce would stop linking the LO stuff on the main site.
Yea, surerightokay. You've probably read everything I ever posted. You are obviously obsessed.
No, I'm not a cheating liar, I was when I was a kid. But I grew up, and stopped copying what I saw others do.
I am glad to see you admit to having some mistakes in the past - so have we all - but the difference is about taking responsibility for them vs blaiming those mistakes on others. I snipped a lot of that out. Basically you blaimed your cheating and lying in the past on others (e.g., "copying" others, being raised by others with problems, being around others with problems). It wasn't your fault. You are a just a victim.
I was not a victim at the time. I just didn't know who I was. It was wrong, I know that now. I also know I was copying others. I was 16 for Christ's sakes. The only thing we know how to do at 16 is copy what we have seen in our homes. No one is responsible for what they do at 16. LOL. They don't know shit. That's why they are called minors, dipshit. You are a grown man, act like one. Take responsibity and quit saying you are fucking up. You're just a fucking liar. End of story
On the positive side you say you won't do it again in the future... but the future is of course wide open. When people take no responsibility for their past choices, they tend to make the same mistakes in the future choices (given the opportunity). While I do appreciate your strong stance on lying now, it really only matters if you actually do live up to it in a long term relationships in the future.
I didn't cheat for 9 years.
Lying/cheating is not the only thing that tears relationships apart. Too many people think that if the don't "cheat" that gives them a license to do whatever they want to their SO a relationship. Not so, there are many other ways to abuse people in relationships.
So what's your point? That if there are other forms of abuse that makes yours ok? Just more bullshit to try and rationalize the fact that you are a liar.
The answer to the good/evil question posted earlier is this: Some people are inherently good, some are evil.
Well, of course I have to say "of course". People with BPD believe exactly that. People are good, or evil... not some mix of good and evil, it has to be one of the other.
OH stfu about this BPD thing... i am tired of hearing it. I don't have BPD any more than the man in the fucking moon you dumb fuck. Trust me, I'm WAY ahead of you... i have no personality disorders, nor am I living in the world of denial you are. Of course there is a mix of good and evil... I am generally talking about "some people are sociopaths, which would clearly be labeled as evil beings, others are not." Get it? Of course there are varying degrees of good and evil. There are shades of grey in every fucking thing under the sun.
The problem of course is, that they themselves are never evil. If they commit mistakes, it becomes someone else's fault they made those mistakes. People with BPD have to believe this because they can't admit they have their own evil traits. They are innocent. If others make mistakes, they are cast as all evil (or as all good and the person with BPD excuses their mistakes as being the fault of someone else, e.g., the person's parents).
I'm NOT evil, in general. I am a well-wisher with a conscience, much more of one than you have. Does that make me any better than you? Technically no. I just dislike liars. I don't like you or your lifestyle. I think you are a scumbag. Don't tell me that I am BPD because I don't like you... what a strange copout. Of course I am not perfect, but that doesn't make your imperfections any better. Sorry. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... you want to get out of your accountability by bringing up every damn thing in the world to make it look better that you are a liar. Wow. Kat earlier said she thought all people were inherently evil. Does that make her BPD? ::) Oops, she must see everything in black and white!!! She's BPD. What an amazingly insane and stupid jump in logic. I know I'm not being very nice right now, but I have lost my patience with you. You seem to be very, very slow in your thinking. i've noticed it before. And you make incredibly insane and stupid jumps in logic. You are obsessive too, you've been following me around the boards, and talking about this BPD thing forever, which you have no basis for.
It is fine to want to rant. We don't need full agreement. Just don't expect complete agreement with your rants .... e.g., if you rant about the wrongs someone did you, expect that someone (such as myself) it is going to eventually turn the rant around on you and ask the questions challenging your own perception.
I don't give a shit. It's fun to take out my frustrations on idiots. :D
It's funny as hell how Darren chooses a few things out of context to quote..... Darren you are weak as a baby when it comes to debate. You don't see it but if you go back and read it, you have made a complete jackass of yourself. Even liars are arguing with you.
Darren
08-10-2004, 02:47 AM
you can hate me...
But that doesn't change the fact that you lie continuously and God Knows what else to your wife, and that only YOU are accountable for that.
The notion that someone lies "continuously" is the kind of thing a BPD would say (it is all or nothing, you can't fathom shades of grey). But yes, I have lied to her in the past. It has been a long time since I have been to a SC, and I haven't lied to her about anything recently, but I can admit to having lied again if this makes you feel more perfect. I am not perfect like you, but then we can't all be perfect (only people with BPD are perfect). I have also been lied to by my wife in the past... fortunately, I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water because she is less than perfect. Unfortunately real people won't live up to your perfectionist notions of how people should be, but then nor will you, but you will have to find that out the hard way.
Darren
08-10-2004, 02:54 AM
It's fun to take out my frustrations on idiots. :D
Ah the good old erotic... if all else fails, try using the "name calling" technique :) Oh well, no big deal... as I said, you have the "you are a liar" shield to hide behind forever.
Maybe I should try to find my "you are a cheater" shield - I use to love hiding behind that one.
erotictonic
08-10-2004, 03:12 AM
you can hate me...
But that doesn't change the fact that you lie continuously and God Knows what else to your wife, and that only YOU are accountable for that.
The notion that someone lies "continuously" is the kind of thing a BPD would say (it is all or nothing, you can't fathom shades of grey). But yes, I have lied to her in the past. It has been a long time since I have been to a SC, and I haven't lied to her about anything recently, but I can admit to having lied again if this makes you feel more perfect. I am not perfect like you, but then we can't all be perfect (only people with BPD are perfect). I have also been lied to by my wife in the past... fortunately, I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water because she is less than perfect. Unfortunately real people won't live up to your perfectionist notions of how people should be, but then nor will you, but you will have to find that out the hard way.
Wrong again, Einstein. Continuously means that you do lie whenever needed. It's just an easy way to say that your lies are going to happen on a continual basis... because you think it's okay... it's only human, right? You already said you want your cake and eat it too, remember that? I don't expect anything from anyone, I believe in honest open relationships. So no one has to live up to anything. It's a hell of a lot better way than promising someone something you will never live up to, which is what will inevitably probably happen because a lot men can't be honest. If you look on the pink site, alot more women seem to be honest, or at least trying to be. They won't even come over here because of the attitudes. You guys over here are all : Oh it's human to lie, so it's ok if I do it. It's just fucking bullshit. End of story.
We ALL make pretty general statements on here... to explain every shade of grey there is would become long-winded and ridiculous. Don't worry.... my scope is very broad. I see many, many things you never will if you live to be 100. I know what my issues are, I don't lie to myself nor am I in the denial you are. But they are definitely not BPD. I read the description, I am interested in psych, and I have read it many times before. But it's WAY WAY off from who I am. Sorry. If they were, I would admit it, why shoudn't I? This is anonymous. And even if I did see everything in black and white, which I definitely do not, it would still be an amazing jump to say that is BPD. That symptom is common in many many disorders and problems. And it would have to make a major difference in one's life... it would have to be extreme in order to classify it as a disorder in the first place. You know better than that if you dealt with criminals for 10 years like you say you did. Remember: I am 33, not 16. I am WAY WAY more experienced and smarter than you are giving me credit for, and I have lived many many situations that you never have. I don't have any serious disorders, I used to see therapists and psychiatrists who said I was just a confused young woman looking for answers. Well now I have them. And they don't include lying, cheating men. I deserve better than men like you, and that is what I shall have. If you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
Let's see.... the BPD arguement... been there and explained that a few posts ago... but you are still harping it. Perfect arguement... that's been explained too. Do you even fully read my posts, or are you really that stupid????? ??? You don't comprehend shit! It's like arguing with a fucking 4 year old. It's not that i think i am perfect, I just have an idea of what is right and wrong and I stand by it. I don't think it's ok to go do something I know is wrong and then write it off as a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. You were just being an evil liar.
You just hate me because I don't like you or your kind. You're a manipulator and a liar. And the women like me who refuse to deal with men like you and are smart enough to beat them at their own game scare the shit out of men like you. I am empowered, I know what the hell I want, and I won't settle for less. Call it perfect if you want, but it's what I shall have, or else. If you two agree with the fact that it's ok to be liars and cheaters, which you have, then it's ok. If it works for you, have at it. But that's not what I want, and I refuse to settle for it. If you want to think it's wrong, go the fuck ahead. But you're not going to change my mind to think I want a lying, manipulator for a mate. Let's just agree to disagree. I think you are wrong, and you think I am. So be it.
erotictonic
08-10-2004, 03:40 AM
It's fun to take out my frustrations on idiots. :D
Ah the good old erotic... if all else fails, try using the "name calling" technique :) Oh well, no big deal... as I said, you have the "you are a liar" shield to hide behind forever.
Maybe I should try to find my "you are a cheater" shield - I use to love hiding behind that one.
I don't use techniques... I use logiic, something you obviously can't understand. Once again you are falling back on things that you have even apologized for... we already clarified that I am not a cheater. You don't learn very well. In fact, you're very, very slow. Wow.
Moneywise
08-10-2004, 07:33 AM
That smurf looks like he's sleeping.
That smurf looks like he's sleeping.
MW hes just blissfully nursing. If you had kids you would understand ;)
FBR
Moneywise
08-10-2004, 07:52 AM
It must be the tonic flow that has him punch drunk. Dude is hanging on for dear life though.