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Pazzo
11-04-2004, 02:10 PM
For all the clevland people I feel bad because your city is in disarray.
However remember one thing. For a few hundred dollars Delta will fly you anywhere you want to go. Take life in your own hands not bush's or Kerry's.
If I lived in an area where money was a problem I would find a way to move out of that area. You can't blame bush or kerry for job loss in a certian area.
What are the politicians in your area doing to bring in new business to help the local ecomomy. Sure businesses have closed down. How dedicated are your local leaders in going to other companies and maybe giving them short term tax breaks to relocate to your area or whatever they can do.
I can see if the whole country is in a depression but if one area is hit hard you can always leave the area. After all I have been saving all my money to move to florida. Why? for a better life and lower costs of living. I have a great job but still feel its better for my future to move. People need to take responsibility for themselves.

Jay Zeno
11-04-2004, 02:20 PM
States have seceded before. Didn't work out too well.

The fact that different states have different needs and different views doesn't make one of them morally inferior. If one state was 51-49 Bush and another 51-49 Kerry, I guess the Bush state is horrible and the Kerry state is wonderful - for a 2% different in results.

- Jay Zeno, from a cowfucking red state, with a new Democratic majority in the statehouse, a Republican governor, split Republican/Democratic Senators, and a new state constitutional mandate for utilization of wind power.

A_Guy
11-04-2004, 02:33 PM
For all the clevland people I feel bad because your city is in disarray.
However remember one thing. For a few hundred dollars Delta will fly you anywhere you want to go. Take life in your own hands not bush's or Kerry's.
If I lived in an area where money was a problem I would find a way to move out of that area. You can't blame bush or kerry for job loss in a certian area.
What are the politicians in your area doing to bring in new business to help the local ecomomy. Sure businesses have closed down. How dedicated are your local leaders in going to other companies and maybe giving them short term tax breaks to relocate to your area or whatever they can do.
I can see if the whole country is in a depression but if one area is hit hard you can always leave the area. After all I have been saving all my money to move to florida. Why? for a better life and lower costs of living. I have a great job but still feel its better for my future to move. People need to take responsibility for themselves.If it were as simple as just jumping on a plane and getting the hell out, I'd probably do it.... however, 1) Cleveland has been home to me for my entire life, so I have a bit of an attachment to the communities. 2) My gf lives near here and we're both in grad school... leaving today would be next to impossible. 3) I have a good job and am getting great experience. It would be hard to leave just now.

You're right on the local leaders though. They stink. Downtown Cleveland is in disarray, but some of the outlying suburbs are doing well. It's a matter of bringing businesses AND residents back downtown. This can be done in a few ways IMO:

1) futher develop the lake front by removing the airport along the lakefront... it's such a waste of prime real estate.

2) Improve city schools!! Unfortunately the School levy didn't pass (by an overwhelming margin). This really pissed me off. People are willing to complain about the conditions, but are not willing to contribute to improve them!!!

Also:
"In Ohio, a report drafted by a Columbus consulting firm suggests that the state receives only $44 million in education subsidies from the federal government each year, while the cost of meeting No Child Left Behind objectives is closer to $1 billion annually."

A small part of that $200 billion spent on Iraq sure would come in handy for Cleveland AND Ohio.


3) DON'T PASS ANTI-GAY MARRIAGE/ANTI-CIVIL UNION AMENDEMENTS TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION!!!!!!! I can think of 19 people I know off the top of my head that will be leaving Ohio because of the passing of this "moral issue" - 8 business owners, and 11 well-educated, professional workers. Cuyohoga use to be a safe-haven.... that is no longer the case.

Just a few of my thoughts... I have more, but I have get to the books. Maybe I'll post more later.

NinaDaisy
11-04-2004, 02:40 PM
Oh boy...

I wasn't serious about seceding. I kinda know how that whole Civil War deal played out, ya know?

I live in Maryland and we have a Republican governor although Kerry won quite handily here. I don't think Pennsylvania is necessarily a better state than W. Virginia since Bush won W. Va. narrowly and Kery won PA narrowly.

I can't say I was surprised to see Idaho and Utah go to Bush by as many votes as they did.

We all knew it would be a close race. For all of Gabe's bravado about how more people voted for Bush than any president in history, more people also voted AGAINST him than any other president. Obviously, I wish Kerry would have won, but I am certainly glad that the voter turnout was so high.

doc-catfish
11-04-2004, 03:33 PM
The Northeast and West Coast need to secede from the cowfucking red states, I guess. :O Like Emily wrote, it really does seem like we're living in two different countries.
:cow::devil:
Well if people here are fucking cows around here then folks have worse things to worry about than gay marriage.
;)

Serously, even here where Bush won by 25% points, 420,000 people voted for Kerry. Things are a lot more "purple" everywhere than we'd like to believe they are.

Population shifts over the last decade have tipped the electoral college balance in the red states favor. Kerry got 252 electoral votes, so he was only 18 away from clinching it. If some people who live in overwhelming blue states like New York and California would move to slightly red ones like Florida and Ohio and make them go blue in 2008 and if more young people would show up at the polls in those states, the balance just might tip back.

Adina
11-04-2004, 04:46 PM
And you're such a gracious winner Gabe. ::)

Me thinks you need to read the posting guidelines (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29216) my friend, particularly the one about flaming or attacking others based on personality differences. This is the third post of yours I've reported today.
Come on, Doc, don't spoil the fun. I'm enjoying watching him dig himself deeper and deeper.

Gabe, suppose (and I pray this doesn't happen to you) you're hit in Iraq? What if, as a result, you can't hold a job, and you need life-long medical care? What will you do?

Do you know anything about the Retired Pay Restoration Act of 2003, and where our president stood on it? Did you know that the Bush administration made proposals that, if passed, could have disqualified millions of disabled vets from getting their VA benefits? Or how about cutting $9.7 billion in veterans’ health care over 10 years - a proposal the GOP put on the table?

I'm guessing you DON'T know about this. Do the research. Think before you flap your trap. 20 years from now, you might wish you had.

Deogol
11-04-2004, 06:44 PM
First off, what the hell is up with deleting my posts? Users can use sarcasm and personal attacks against me, but after, if I do the same I get deleted?
Way to be nuetral mods.


I have had some personal attacks against me blown away - just report the post.

Weren't the political poo section suppose to quiet down after the election? Wasn't someone saying that? Huh?

Adina
11-04-2004, 06:48 PM
Suppose Adina your walking down the block and a bomb explodes. Or your dancing on the stage and a terrorist walks in and blows it up.

Or what if a terrorist beheads one of your family members?

Does cutting down ANY medical healthcare good? Of course not, but we have to deal with it.
Er...um...what?/:O You're not making sense.

VenusGoddess
11-04-2004, 07:20 PM
First off, what the hell is up with deleting my posts? Users can use sarcasm and personal attacks against me, but after, if I do the same I get deleted?
Way to be nuetral mods.First of all...knock it off. If you feel that someone insulted you, then use the "report post" button. If you do not like the moderation then leave or take it up with Pryce. Also, not just YOUR posts were deleted. The mod deleted your posts and posts responding in kind to those posts...Ok?

Geezus.

On with the debate.

Gabe
11-04-2004, 08:03 PM
Er...um...what? You're not making sense.


Gabe, suppose (and I pray this doesn't happen to you) you're hit in Iraq? What if, as a result, you can't hold a job, and you need life-long medical care? What will you do?

getting shot over in Iraq, or having a bomb explode on a subway, your still gonna get fucked up. We are taking measures to stop terrorism abroad. So far so good.

Madcap
11-04-2004, 08:28 PM
Sadly, GWB never saw a spending bill cross his desk that he didn't sign.

He really, really needs to learn how to use the friggin' veto pen.

As for the GWB-9/11 tin-foil conspiracies and accusations, they're so tired and thoroughly debunked they're not worth dignifying with a response.
100% of these statements I agree with.

Dubya had nothing to do, advertantly or inadvertantly, with 9/11. It's retarded to say he did.

MisfitBunnie
11-04-2004, 08:40 PM
Not to mention the Jesus freaks dictating policy. You know, as in the 40% of people who believe in creationism?
That is what I'm most pissed about. The Jesus freaks taking over EVERYTHING, including our goverment.

"You ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really unevolved?, "I believe God made me in one day!".....yeah, he rushed it." -Bill Hicks, THE GREATEST COMEDIAN EVER!;D

"People always say to me, "Bill why do always talk about the Kennedy assasination? It was a long time ago, let it go!" and then I say "Well then don't bring up Jesus to me!" and then they say "He died for you!" I respond "Yeah well it was a long time ago! Forget about it! As long as we're talkin shelf life here..."-Bill Hicks

;D

montythegeek
11-04-2004, 09:01 PM
AGuy,
Take a look at this release from the House Chairman of the Committee on Education and the Workforce re Federal Aid to the State of Ohio.
http://edworkforce.house.gov/press/press108/second/01jan/nclbohio011504.htm

PArt of it

The report wrongly concludes the federal government is providing only $44 million annually to meet No Child Left Behind's requirements. In reality, the federal government is providing more than $1 billion annually to Ohio to meet the law's requirements -- $661 million in FY 2003 for NCLB, and $373 million in FY 2003 for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), for a total of $1.034 billion in FY 2003 in annual federal aid.

By the way why is this draft of a report by a never named consultant never printed anywhere and their name never published anywhere? Chairman Boehners remarks are dated January 2004, almost 10 months ago. Where is the beef?

stant
11-04-2004, 09:44 PM
I can't believe not a single person has yet mentioned the fact that head SCOTUS Justice Rhendquist (sp?) is about to kick it ...
Rumor has it Ashcroft is the on deck nominee to be the new Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

"Libertarians" that voted for Dubya can choke on that one. Ashcroft could be with us for a generation in a position of very great power.

BTW, I've been harping on the Renky issue for months. Even had money on it. :P He's horrible, however. Stevens and Sandy O'Connor are a much bigger concern if they decide to check out.



The Northeast and West Coast need to secede from the cowfucking red states, I guess. :O Like Emily wrote, it really does seem like we're living in two different countries.
I see you later dialed it back a bit from these comments. Why? I'm trying to get a friend of mine who blew an ungodly sum on campaign contributions to write an op/ed piece for the Times promoting this idea. Maybe we shouldn't be one country. I wecome them to enjoy their quite separate United Theocracy of America. I want no part of it. Or the cow fucking. (Although I can see from Bridgette's avatar that some are just willing to pay for the fantasy of fucking a cow, rather than risk rejection from a real life cow.)

Anyone who thinks the sky isn't falling should visualize the view from Trinity Church in downtown Manhattan on 9/11/01. Was Richard Clarke a Chicken Little?

Uniter not a divider my ass.

NinaDaisy
11-04-2004, 10:33 PM
Rumor has it Ashcroft is the on deck nominee to be the new Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

"Libertarians" that voted for Dubya can choke on that one. Ashcroft could be with us for a generation in a position of very great power.



Uniter not a divider my ass.
I was stoked to hear Ashcroft might not be AG much longer then freaked out at the thought of him being on the SC.

You forgot to add "compassionate conservatism my ass".

madgrad
11-05-2004, 12:55 AM
The only persons happier than the right wing religious wackos in the Peckerwood States that GW won the election, are Osama Bin Laden and his close circle of supporters.

Djoser
11-05-2004, 01:39 AM
The only persons happier than the right wing religious wackos in the Peckerwood States that GW won the election, are Osama Bin Laden and his close circle of supporters.
That is the stone cold truth. They are loving this shit--four more years of large numbers of terrorist/converts joining their ranks. Dubya will likely continue or expand his policy of taking this War on Terrorism everywhere else but where OBL is hiding, unless the situation in Iraq gets even worse, in which case the result will be the same.

As far as maintaining their grip upon populations who are mislead, and stirred up by righteous religious wrath, GWB and OBL have something in common, and are actually helping each other. Naturally I would choose even a Bible-beating redneck who wants to put me in jail for playing a pimp to strippers (thats what a DJ is, in their eyes), over a whacked-out terrrorist who wants to videotape me getting my head cut off.

But there is no denying the fact that GWB has helped OBL gain esteem in the eyes of his supporters (who seem to be increasing, despite claims of progress in the War on Terror), and OBL has returned the favor.

Casual Observer
11-05-2004, 06:25 AM
Rumor has it Ashcroft is the on deck nominee to be the new Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

Completely unsubstantiated. The man is in poor health already. Sounds like wishful thinking from the demogoguery squads. Even the NYT and WP aren't saying anything so outlandish.

Alberto Gonzalez (former WH Counsel) is far more likely to be the first candidate.

Jay Zeno
11-05-2004, 11:35 AM
Tolerance rather than embracement does not equate to bigotry.

Failure to achieve a quick and huge paradigm shift in society is not evidence of hatred.

Fire away.

Tigerlilly
11-05-2004, 12:29 PM
Tolerance ? where ?

I see very little if any tolerance from the the majority rightwing .

Their agenda is anything but tolerance- that's something Fundy's don't believe in- it's either their way or it's immoral fire and brimstone.

Tolerance and rightwing do not belong in the same sentance , maybe not even in the same language :-\

slutty
11-05-2004, 02:40 PM
if there is a draft i really hope the idiots who voted for bush are forced to go first, then maybe you will really regret your decision. gee, i wonder if the bush twins will have to go if it comes down to it?

Jay Zeno
11-05-2004, 02:42 PM
It wasn't a right-wing or fundamentalist comment, necessarily.

Intolerance is all around. I see plenty of left-wing intolerance, too. I've been to college.

Melonie
11-05-2004, 02:46 PM
There will be no draft, period. People who enlist with professional soldiers for 6 years do not want to trust their lives to a drafted soldier next to him with zero commitment to soldiering as a profession.

Besides, the days of footsoldiers carrying rifles as the mainstay of the US army are long gone. Because of increasing levels of military technology, the US military itself now has very few positions to fill that do not require a fair amount of training first (i.e. 6 months), and it simply isn't economical to invest the time and money to train a draftee who is going to leave the military 18 months after their training is complete. Many positions actually require YEARS of training/education, such that a draftee wouldn't even be able to complete the training before a 2 year hitch was up.

Tigerlilly
11-05-2004, 02:46 PM
It wasn't a right-wing or fundamentalist comment, necessarily.

Intolerance is all around. I see plenty of left-wing intolerance, too. I've been to college.
LOL- ok I gotta agree with you there ;)

Melonie
11-05-2004, 02:49 PM
Population shifts over the last decade have tipped the electoral college balance in the red states favor

And why do you suppose that those population shifts are occurring in the first place ? You don't suppose that high state taxes, heavy regulation of businesses, and other classic 'liberal' tax and spend political decisions has anything to do with it ?

Tigerlilly
11-05-2004, 03:01 PM
"classic 'liberal' tax and spend political decisions"
LMFAO- that is so funny to read considering GW's history.

As for why people are moving out of uber populated areas- try cheaper housing
and less crime ( directly related to less population)

Think about what a decent apt costs in NYC, Miami or Chicago. Now compare that to 50 miles outside of city. Today's jobs are not toaly limited to cities anymore and so people have more options.

Alot of people would rather have a 2 story 3 bed with a backyard instead of a 1 bed apt in NYC .

Cost of homes is the biggest reason people move out of the urban areas.

doc-catfish
11-05-2004, 03:10 PM
And why do you suppose that those population shifts are occurring in the first place ? You don't suppose that high state taxes, heavy regulation of businesses, and other classic 'liberal' tax and spend political decisions has anything to do with it ?
I'd say a bigger factor is that the red states that are growing the fastest (i.e. Nevada, Florida, Arizona) tend to be in a warm weather climates where old folks from less hospitable places want to spend their retirement. People have been increasingly moving to those parts of the country for decades now. I don't see the same things happening in uber-red Wyoming and North Dakota.

Tigerlilly
11-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Good point Doc- can't believe that didnt occur to me -- a Floridian- LOL !

NinaDaisy
11-05-2004, 05:36 PM
And why do you suppose that those population shifts are occurring in the first place ? You don't suppose that high state taxes, heavy regulation of businesses, and other classic 'liberal' tax and spend political decisions has anything to do with it ?
I gotta call you on this one Melonie. You got the "spend" part right for Dubya, but not the tax. He has no regard for where money will come from to fund stuff. Hence that spiraling defecit we have now?

The amount of spending that Dubya's done over the last four years would put to shame even the biggest flaming "Great Society" liberal.

And don't tell me that a lot of it was necessary to fight the war on terror because our soldiers are still underfunded to the point where a lot of them have to buy their own body armor. Billions of government dollars are being used for Cheney and Co.'s no-bid Halliburton sweetheart deals...

Melonie
11-06-2004, 03:51 AM
The population shifts I referred to were based on STATE government taxation and spending policies. This subject came to the forefront again yesterday in California versus Nevada taxation and spending policies (it's not just retirees moving to Nevada, highly paid Californians are also moving to Reno in droves to avoid CA state taxes) - where despite the election results Democratic California legislators were still proposing raising California state tax rates rather than cutting spending. The Terminator responded very tactfully ... "why should I listen to losers".

In regard to federal spending by GWB, a huge chunk of new spending was due to educational reform primarily written into law by Teddy Kennedy in a burst of bi-partisan co-operation early in GWG's term. Another big chunk of new spending was the bi-partisan creation of a prescription drug benefit for seniors. Yes, Halliburton got some money, but Halliburton also provides services to the US military which the military doesn't have to provide for themselves (outsourcing). But there's no denying that there are now 1/2 million new government employees at a Dep't of Homeland Security, at the FBA, CIA, at every airport and dock and border crossing who were not there prior to September 11th 2001 !

stant
11-06-2004, 04:48 AM
The population shifts I referred to were based on STATE government taxation and spending policies. This subject came to the forefront again yesterday in California versus Nevada taxation and spending policies (it's not just retirees moving to Nevada, highly paid Californians are also moving to Reno in droves to avoid CA state taxes) - where despite the election results Democratic California legislators were still proposing raising California state tax rates rather than cutting spending. ...
You're hallucinating again. Reno???? Please. Have you ever been to Reno or California? One is a barren, inhospitable hole, the other has numerous coastal communities that are among the most desirable (and expensive) places to live on the planet. No one is leaving California because of taxes. They simply can't afford the cost of housing. Even a ghetto home in SoCal or the Bay Area is easily double or triple the cost of a similar home in the barren tundra of Reno. Droves moving to Reno to avoid taxes?? If this even resembled the truth I'd be the first to call for even higher taxes. I've heard of people moving to Las Vegas, but they generally worked in service industry jobs which were widely out of sync with the cost of living here. I can also understand someone moving to Colorado, Oregon, or Arizona, for reasons mentioned by TL, but RENO??

Your analysis of interstate migration is a bit out to lunch here.