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azamber
11-03-2004, 04:36 PM
K, I know there are a few people here who said they are moving to Canada, not an option for me, although I'd love to find a nice little island somewhere and start a Libertarian society. Anyway, here's what Canada has to say to all of you about relocating.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6704292

Deogol
11-03-2004, 05:15 PM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yea - stick around and put up a fight! That is the American way. Don't be running away crying like a little girl with a skinned knee! >:(

azamber
11-03-2004, 05:17 PM
Staying and fighting is a very good idea, let's get pissed and change things!

Gabe
11-03-2004, 05:19 PM
America just had their chance, and they have spoken....

Bush for 4 more years!!! 4 glorious years.

azamber
11-03-2004, 05:23 PM
Gabe, you seem to forget that about half the country voted against him. I'd say the country is pretty divided at this point. So half of America wants change, what are you gonna do about that?

Deogol
11-03-2004, 05:27 PM
America just had their chance, and they have spoken....

Bush for 4 more years!!! 4 glorious years.

Till the impeachment comes....

montythegeek
11-03-2004, 06:27 PM
Gabe, you seem to forget that about half the country voted against him. I'd say the country is pretty divided at this point. So half of America wants change, what are you gonna do about that?Half the people voted against Truman.
Half voted against JFK
Half against Nixon
almost Half against Reagan
HAlf against Clinton
Now half against W.
Some things never change and we survived it all and will get over it.
Table 369 at http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/03statab/election.pdf

Gabe
11-03-2004, 06:57 PM
Gabe, you seem to forget that about half the country voted against him. I'd say the country is pretty divided at this point. So half of America wants change, what are you gonna do about that?

LMFAO!!! You think a president will win 100% of the votes.

**News flash** Georgey got more popular votes then ANY OTHER president in the U.S. Yes, the population is greater, but he is in the record books baby.


Till the impeachment comes....

Impeach him for winning? Rofl..

primetime21
11-03-2004, 07:03 PM
At least in the US you only have 2 main parties,in Canada there are 3 major parties and a whole mess of smaller ones and the Liberal party here won with about 40% of the popular vote in the last election.

FBR
11-03-2004, 07:10 PM
Primetime, your thoughts would be interesting re: the posters here who want to high tail it over the boarder. Would moving to Canada be a good thing for them?

FBR

MisfitBunnie
11-03-2004, 07:25 PM
Gabe, how old are you if I may ask?

Us young people are the ones who have to suffer for the mistake made last night, not you (if you are older).

Care to pay for my now doubling college tuition?

Didn't think so.

4 more years of the spawn of satan and little Damien Cheney.

primetime21
11-03-2004, 07:45 PM
Primetime, your thoughts would be interesting re: the posters here who want to high tail it over the boarder. Would moving to Canada be a good thing for them?

FBR
FBR, since Canada is a more liberal country, right now we have same-sex marriages, trying to get marijuana decriminalized, etc, those that are for the Democratic party would probably be right at home here. I am more Conservative/Republican in my views at least when it comes to economic/financial matters, but more liberal in other aspects, such as I am for pro-choice, have no problem with same sex marriages, but I'm against decriminalizing pot. Canada would be the ideal place for those Americans who cannot stand Bush, but be prepared for higher taxes, long waits for hospitals, and we are having a dire doctor shortage as a great deal of people cannot find a family physician, and have to go to the emergency room or a walk in clinic. The area I live in is short about 100 doctors so it is next to impossible to find a family doctor. If you can deal with things like that then Canada is perfect for you, and our beer is stronger than yours. ;D

azamber
11-03-2004, 07:46 PM
LMFAO!!! You think a president will win 100% of the votes.


Of course not, Gabe, that's ridiclous. You said America has spoken, and I was simply reminding you that only half of America shares your feelings. The other half spoke against Bush, that's all.

And to Montythegeek, see the above. I especially think this time around, people are more involved and aware of what's going on around them. I think that's great, and I hope some things change. I was optimistic to read that GW wants to earn the trust of the Kerry voters and unite the nation, I think that would be wonderful, but he'd have to moderate his views. Now that we're stuck with him, I at least hope he makes the right decisions, seeing how so many people have spoken out strongly against his past policies.

Edited to add: I just got an email from TrueMajority that sums up my optimism,

"What a difference four years makes. For the first time in decades, the number of people voting went way up. The number of folks who actually got involved in the election went through the roof. But the change was far deeper than that. Big money was still monumental, but little money collected online from lots of people added up to big money. More important, the things that really mattered in the end were accomplished by an army of regular folks. Millions of doors were knocked on, and even more calls to new voters were made. Regular people who were never political activists held house parties to share their enthusiasm with friends. Quite simply, politics went from something we watched on TV to something we all did."

And I think both parties made significant contributions to getting more people involved, which is quite refreshing after the voter apathy in the past.

Gabe
11-03-2004, 07:52 PM
<----- See my age??

Im attending Seton Hall University.

Im also in the army Reserve (Joined the end of my Junior year of H.S.), Any second of any day i could be activated. I was activated for short detail in Fort Dix New Jersey for 8 months but was sent home.

Now guess what? Would I go to Iraq tomorrow if i got the letter? You bet your ass I would. Does tuition suck? Hell yea it sucks, I have to take out massive student loans, despite the little help I get from Fafsa and the Army.

azamber
11-03-2004, 07:58 PM
Gabe, comin at you with an open mind here, why the enthusiasm for fighting in Iraq? I have heard the opposite more often than not, and I know the reasons behind it (who hasn't seen F9/11 by now), but I want to know why you support the war in Iraq. Please be honest and open minded. I would also like to know if you think your justification for the war is worth your possible death should you be deployed. I would have to believe really strongly in something in order to die for it. Your thoughts would be most appreciated.

edited to add: Actually, anyone who might have to go over there can answer this.

FBR
11-03-2004, 08:07 PM
Primetime, what you say affirms what Ive heard from several Canadian biz buds that I have. It aint perfect here and it aint perfect there. I hate to see spirited individuals like Tigerlilly give up and move north. Yeah, she lost this round but that doesnt mean her ideas and aspirations are for naught. I'm pretty conservative myself but I wouldnt mind a few of those more liberal programs being enacted.

FBR

Jay Zeno
11-03-2004, 08:07 PM
OK, coming out of hiding because a rational response is requested about something I know just a little bit about.

Someone very close to me spent two tours in the Gulf between wars. He was in the Marines. When 9/11 happened, I had to talk him out of re-upping. He would've gone to Afghanistan and Iraq in a heartbeat.

Keep in mind that I supported the rooting out of our enemies that caused 9/11 in Afghanistan, and I thought the invasion of Iraq was ill-advised from the start.

His thinking: America was attacked, and he wants to attack back. That's what American Marines do. It's personal to him. When you get attacked, you don't just send an airplane over to bomb or guide some cruise missiles in - you put in the troops to beat the shit out of them so they don't do it again.

Now, we can argue the Iraq WMD and terrorist connection (or lack of it), but he was over there, and he saw the sentiment, and the violent anti-American Muslim mentality is the enemy. If the Commander in Chief says we need to root it out in Afghanistan, or Iraq - or Iran, or Yemen, or Jordan - that's what's gonna get down. You don't even have to like the Commander in Chief. You have your mission, and it's what you train for every day.

Angry Muslim extremists aren't the only ones that can carry a grudge. The will of the American people to fight Iraqi insurgents will wear out long before the warriors' will does.

Gabe
11-03-2004, 08:18 PM
Gabe, comin at you with an open mind here, why the enthusiasm for fighting in Iraq? I have heard the opposite more often than not, and I know the reasons behind it (who hasn't seen F9/11 by now), but I want to know why you support the war in Iraq. Please be honest and open minded.

I Live in New Jersey. Jersey City to be exact. A stone throw away from New York. We were ATTACKED on 9/11 by a terrorist organization.
Why Iraq? Sadaam killed thousands upon thousands of his own people. Did he or didn't he have wmd? Im sure he did, if not im sure he was planning on getting some.
Either way, the guy is a dictator who supported terrorism. If my commander-in-chief told me to attack, I would do it.


I would also like to know if you think your justification for the war is worth your possible death should you be deployed. I would have to believe really strongly in something in order to die for it.

If I was walking down the street and saw a stranger in trouble, and if it costed my life to save them, I would do it in a heartbeat. That's how I am.

azamber
11-03-2004, 08:18 PM
...but he was over there, and he saw the sentiment, and the violent anti-American Muslim mentality is the enemy. If the Commander in Chief says we need to root it out in Afghanistan, or Iraq - or Iran, or Yemen, or Jordan - that's what's gonna get down. You don't even have to like the Commander in Chief. You have your mission, and it's what you train for every day.

I would be a little pissed-off and have some violent anti-whoever sentiments if my home was being torn apart by war too. Am I wrong in assuming that most Muslims are peace loving gentle people, and that the fanaticism of a few on the fringes is making this into a religious war?

I wouldn't join the military if I disagreed with the commander in chief's international policy. But then again, I wouldn't join the military even if I didn't, because I am anti-war and killing. I still think we should put the leaders in a room to work it out for themselves, even fight to the death if they have to. Don't make it everyone else's problem. (Simplistic, idealistic, I know. Don't jump on my shit for it)

edited to add: Thanks for the response Gabe. I can appreciate and respect your passion, and I thank you for being willing to make that sacrifice for our country. Hope you don't have to be put in harm's way though.

A_Guy
11-03-2004, 08:19 PM
**News flash** Georgey got more popular votes then ANY OTHER president in the U.S. unless someone can prove otherwise, I believe Kerry did also.

Jay Zeno
11-03-2004, 08:26 PM
I would be a little pissed-off and have some violent anti-whoever sentiments if my home was being torn apart by war too. Am I wrong in assuming that most Muslims are peace loving gentle people, and that the fanaticism of a few on the fringes is making this into a religious war? I don't know. But Muslims and Christians haven't had peaceful histories - not with each other, not among themselves.



I wouldn't join the military if I disagreed with the commander in chief's international policy. But then again, I wouldn't join the military even if I didn't, because I am anti-war and killing. I still think we should put the leaders in a room to work it out for themselves, even fight to the death if they have to. Don't make it everyone else's problem. (Simplistic, idealistic, I know. Don't jump on my shit for it) I'd be the last one to do that. I like the idea. If the leaders think it's worth fighting about, let them do it rather than men, and increasingly women, in the flower of their young adult lives.

And I think pacifism is a good thing - as long as we have troops to turn back the bad guys that would steamroll over our pacifist selves. And then when bad guys attack other innocents, do we stand by because we're pacifists? It gets confusing.

I practice pacifism on a personal level and hope that I do well enough at it to inspire others to do so. It's a long-range plan, admittedly.



unless someone can prove otherwise, I believe Kerry did also.
You are correct, beating the previous total by 4.6 million votes.

President Bush's office said something about carrying a mandate. I'm glad that the winner got the popular vote, too, so we don't see the same snarls about popular/elector vote that we did in 2000. But I don't think a nailbiting win that isn't figured out till the next day counts as a "mandate." I think it counts as a "squeaked by."

azamber
11-03-2004, 08:32 PM
And I think pacifism is a good thing - as long as we have troops to turn back the bad guys that would steamroll over our pacifist selves. And then when bad guys attack other innocents, do we stand by because we're pacifists? It gets confusing.


LOL, I think your sig says it best. That's ultimately the conclusion I am coming to.

Casual Observer
11-03-2004, 08:43 PM
I wouldn't join the military if I disagreed with the commander in chief's international policy. But then again, I wouldn't join the military even if I didn't, because I am anti-war and killing. I still think we should put the leaders in a room to work it out for themselves, even fight to the death if they have to. Don't make it everyone else's problem. (Simplistic, idealistic, I know. Don't jump on my shit for it)

Indeed, war isn't the answer--war is the question; frequently, the answer is yes.

That's how geopolitics works.

Crystal_eyes
11-03-2004, 11:46 PM
I think they are doing the right thing with making people wait because we can't go in the states to live just like that it is way harder for us to go live there than for u to come here ! And sorry but I think there is people that are in a way more bad situation than US resident and that really need to come here for their safety and well being ! At leats it wasn't corrupted ! Yes it's bad that Bush won but there's people that are suffering way more and I don't think that just because you don't like the president you should leave the country ok I understand that some people are frustrated but it's not by quiting that your gonna change things ! Do something to make your country better ! I feel like in the states there's really 2 completly different way of thinking but here it's all the same thing ! I don't even vote cause it doesn't change anything if you vote for one or another ! Anyway good luck if your decision is made and you want to come here but don't think that the grass is greener here cause you may be surprised and think that we are different and don't like it or just fall in love and stay here !

madgrad
11-04-2004, 01:11 AM
Amber,

Your not the only one who's considering moving to Canada, it was the first thing I enquired about on the internet after seeing the election results....

azamber
11-04-2004, 01:13 AM
Oh, I'm not considering it, I just noticed other people were and I came across this article. Like I said, I'd rather buy an island and start a Libertarian society =)

Did you read my other response yet?

tooma
11-04-2004, 07:49 AM
Gabe, how old are you if I may ask?

Us young people are the ones who have to suffer for the mistake made last night, not you (if you are older).

Care to pay for my now doubling college tuition?

Didn't think so.

4 more years of the spawn of satan and little Damien Cheney.

I'm a little bit older, but when I went to college in the early 90's tuition was high. It is not the gov'ts resposibility to make sure that college tuition remains affordable. I did the same thing most of you do, took out loans, worked my ass off and made it work. Bill Clinton didn't do anything to help pay for my tuition, neither did Bush, Regan, Carter, Ford, Johnson, or Nixon before them. Wait, that's not true. My Dad got money handed to him for college and all he had to do was wade through Vietnam for 3 tours in the Marines. They gave him a lifetime allowance of 10K for college.

The same system that re-elected this president, elected all the previous ones. Do I like it, no, but I respect the process.

Is your tuition really doubling? Like paying 35K now and 70K next year?

Lexi
11-04-2004, 08:19 AM
I don't even vote cause it doesn't change anything if you vote for one or another ! Anyway good luck if your decision is made and you want to come here but don't think that the grass is greener here cause you may be surprised and think that we are different and don't like it or just fall in love and stay here !
If every "NON-VOTER" voted it WOULD make a difference. But its funny how many non-voters there are who flap their gums about politics.
I hope that those who DO move to Canada find it better than the U.S.

doc-catfish
11-04-2004, 08:47 AM
I think all this talk of moving to Canada is simply ridiculous. What's that going to solve?

May I remind those who are seriously considering this that if you are there the next time an election rolls around that there will be one less person here to fight for the "resistance", meaning that the "regime" will have that much more of a majority.

To be honest, instead of moving to Canada you would be better off moving to a state that barely went red this time, so you can make it go blue next election cycle.

Here's another suggestion how you can fight the fundies...join them, or at least join their party. Yes, actually register as a Republican (c'mon its just a brand label). As a member of the party you will help pull the party base towards the left, demand the party nominate moderate candidates for office at all levels of government, vote in Republican primaries and lastly threaten to cross party lines and elect a Democrat should your party nominate a fundy. That's how you fight them folks, not walk off to a foreign country like a coward until the weather is a little nicer.


Like I said, I'd rather buy an island and start a Libertarian society =) Actually, there's a group that is proposing that all libertarian minded folk move to a single state (they picked New Hampshire), take it over, and use it as a model for the rest of the country.

http://www.freestateproject.org/

Their suggestion is pretty far fetched, but to me a more practical idea would be to do something similar on a local scale. It wouldn't be total freedom, but I've always felt that the most intrusive government in your life in the one down the street, not the one in Washington, DC. Can you imagine every city in the country having a libertarian suburb alongside it? Even if we had to build those communitiess from the ground up?

azamber
11-04-2004, 08:49 AM
That would be excellent, but NH is way too cold for me. I'm spoiled on this AZ heat! I read about that back before they even picked the state, I was bummed with thier choice, but maybe I'll go visit.

hardkandee
11-04-2004, 09:30 AM
Is your tuition really doubling? Like paying 35K now and 70K next year?
Mine increased 33% in the last year.

My best friend's is up from 60K to 80K a year.

College is NOT affordable.

NinaDaisy
11-04-2004, 10:06 AM
Hey Gabe, I thought you were a firefighter? Anyway...

Canada definitely has some great points, but it's not quite the liberal wonderland some of us make it out to be.

Yes, they have socialized medicine, but, like a lot of European countries with "free" healthcare, they pay a lot of taxes for it. I personally wouldn't mind paying twice the taxes I do now to get stuff like healthcare out of it, but the vast majority of Americans are VERY tax-averse. I've met people that drive an Escalade but have no health insurance :O . Shows where our priorities are.

Canada's system is still flawed though. It can take months to see a specialist or get expensive diagnostic tests like MRI's. Same in England. So sadly the primary way to guarantee top-notch healthcare is if you're wealthy, or you can get middling healthcare for free if you're on Medicaid. If you're middle-class you're likely screwed, especially since what passes for many corporate healthcare plans today is astonishingly niggardly (look the word up before y'all with more limited vocabularies flame me, btw).

I do like that Canada's more liberal, has less violence and is far less controlled by religious influences than the U.S.

PS-tuition per se isn't doubling, but the rate at which it's increasing IS.

Gabe
11-04-2004, 03:26 PM
Hey Gabe, I thought you were a firefighter? Anyway...

I work for the Fire Prevention Bureau. By the time im 21 I'll be a fireman in New York.

Deogol
11-04-2004, 03:44 PM
<snip> ... paying twice the taxes I do now to get stuff like healthcare out of it, but the vast majority of Americans are VERY tax-averse. I've met people that drive an Escalade but have no health insurance :O . Shows where our priorities are.


Oohhhh this is a pet peeve of mine. Someone who goes out and buys one of these 1,700 TVs and then complains they can't afford healthcare...

Deogol
11-04-2004, 03:58 PM
Am I wrong in assuming that most Muslims are peace loving gentle people, and that the fanaticism of a few on the fringes is making this into a religious war?


Yes. It is the few who are peace loving and gentle. You have it backwards.

The many believe in cutting off people's hands for stealing a bowl or some other stupid shit. I've seen it. Wanna know how they do it? Tie the poor person's hand and elbow to a board and then stretch his arm. The thief's eye's look at the swordsman pleading but there is no mercy as the swordsman believes he carry's out Allah's will and is promoting justice. One wack - two wack - where once he had a hand, three seconds later he has none.

Domestic violence is common. One woman even sued to have her husband beat her only once a week!

Honor killings happen all the time - once again it is the woman. A slit throat or a bath in a blanket.

Beheadings are not that common, but they are not that uncommon either. Once again it is by the sword.

It is often the common citizen that throws a rock at the head and body of those sentenced to stoning. At least in Saudi Arabia they are more merciful about it. A rapist was sentenced to death by stoning (very rare - must have raped the property of someone powerful). They tied him spread eagle across a cement slab. With a small crane, they then dropped the other half of the cement slab upon him.

It is a brutal brutal land and much of the population accepts this way of living.

The "fanatics" have their faces painted upon walls and are worshipped as hero's by those without the means or courage to attack The Great Satan.

As a woman who takes her clothes off, you should be very wary of these people and their beliefs.

Even christian fundamentalists don't burn people at the stake anymore.

Adina
11-04-2004, 04:07 PM
Oohhhh this is a pet peeve of mine. Someone who goes out and buys one of these 1,700 TVs and then complains they can't afford healthcare...Yes, but you can finance the purchase of a car or a TV by leasing or using credit cards. You can't do that with monthly health insurance premiums.

Seriously, have you looked into how much health insurance premiums cost for a family of 4, say, living in New York? It starts at $700 a month for a crappy, restrictive HMO-type plan, and can run about $1000-1500 a month for a better PPO plan with lower deductible and out of pocket minimums. If you're self-employed or a small business owner in middle-income tax bracket, you're up shit's creek.

Adina
11-04-2004, 04:14 PM
Yes. It is the few who are peace loving and gentle. You have it backwards.

The many believe in cutting off people's hands for stealing a bowl or some other stupid shit. I've seen it. Wanna know how they do it? Tie the poor person's hand and elbow to a board and then stretch his arm. The thief's eye's look at the swordsman pleading but there is no mercy as the swordsman believes he carry's out Allah's will and is promoting justice. One wack - two wack - where once he had a hand, three seconds later he has none.

Domestic violence is common. One woman even sued to have her husband beat her only once a week!

Honor killings happen all the time - once again it is the woman. A slit throat or a bath in a blanket.

Beheadings are not that common, but they are not that uncommon either. Once again it is by the sword.

It is often the common citizen that throws a rock at the head and body of those sentenced to stoning. At least in Saudi Arabia they are more merciful about it. A rapist was sentenced to death by stoning (very rare - must have raped the property of someone powerful). They tied him spread eagle across a cement slab. With a small crane, they then dropped the other half of the cement slab upon him.

It is a brutal brutal land and much of the population accepts this way of living.

The "fanatics" have their faces painted upon walls and are worshipped as hero's by those without the means or courage to attack The Great Satan.

As a woman who takes her clothes off, you should be very wary of these people and their beliefs.

Even christian fundamentalists don't burn people at the stake anymore.
Wow, that's an assload of generalizations. The "brutal brutal land" of the Muslim world extends from Casablanca to Jakarta, covering many cultures and many ethnicities...how do you know what the average Muslim believes, and furthermore, what exactly is an "average Muslim?"

You know what I think is going through the minds of most believers of Islam across the world? Feeding their families, and getting by, day by day. Just like most people everywhere.

hardkandee
11-04-2004, 04:36 PM
Wow, that's an assload of generalizations. The "brutal brutal land" of the Muslim world extends from Casablanca to Jakarta, covering many cultures and many ethnicities...how do you know what the average Muslim believes, and furthermore, what exactly is an "average Muslim?"

You know what I think is going through the minds of most believers of Islam across the world? Feeding their families, and getting by, day by day. Just like most people everywhere.
:yes:

People often overlook the huge span of the Islamic world. Overall, the religion is misunderstood because we deal with the fanatics in our daily life.

(I know I'll probably get shit for saying it, but) It's like judging American society by the KKK.

Deogol
11-04-2004, 05:35 PM
Yes, but you can finance the purchase of a car or a TV by leasing or using credit cards. You can't do that with monthly health insurance premiums.

Seriously, have you looked into how much health insurance premiums cost for a family of 4, say, living in New York? It starts at $700 a month for a crappy, restrictive HMO-type plan, and can run about $1000-1500 a month for a better PPO plan with lower deductible and out of pocket minimums. If you're self-employed or a small business owner in middle-income tax bracket, you're up shit's creek.

I agree, I agree...

There are plans for emergency only too - you have to give up ALOT and pay plenty of office visits on your own, but it can save your ass from a $22,000 emergency room bill.

There are people fleeing the country for healthcare and prescriptions. Obviously there is a problem!

Deogol
11-04-2004, 05:40 PM
Wow, that's an assload of generalizations. The "brutal brutal land" of the Muslim world extends from Casablanca to Jakarta, covering many cultures and many ethnicities...how do you know what the average Muslim believes, and furthermore, what exactly is an "average Muslim?"

You know what I think is going through the minds of most believers of Islam across the world? Feeding their families, and getting by, day by day. Just like most people everywhere.

I didn't generalize - a few of them are sane by western standards - a bunch of them are pretty "stern" - and a few are plain crazy.

What, are we gonna talk about Mohammad Yassar and every one of the millions of Islamists to prevent from "generalizing?" Did you miss the part about "much of the populace" in my remarks?

Do you deny these punishments are performed and accepted by the populace in general?

Adina
11-04-2004, 07:01 PM
Do you deny these punishments are performed and accepted by the populace in general?
Of course not. I'm also painfully aware of a nasty custom known as female circumcision. Look that one up if you haven't already :( But what's your point? In India, where Hinduism is prevalent, widows are still doused with gasoline and set on fire, despite the practice having been outlawed ages ago. Muslims don't have a monopoly on cultural practices that are backward and violent in the eyes of Westerners.

VenusGoddess
11-04-2004, 07:13 PM
Yes, but you can finance the purchase of a car or a TV by leasing or using credit cards. You can't do that with monthly health insurance premiums.

Seriously, have you looked into how much health insurance premiums cost for a family of 4, say, living in New York? It starts at $700 a month for a crappy, restrictive HMO-type plan, and can run about $1000-1500 a month for a better PPO plan with lower deductible and out of pocket minimums. If you're self-employed or a small business owner in middle-income tax bracket, you're up shit's creek.
Ugh...when I got my COBRA coverage after I left my job to be a stay-at-home mom, my coverage was at $900+ dollars per month...more than my mortgage payment and that was not including the coverage of my daughter. They consider me "high risk" being that I just had a child and am in the "may have another child" category. Blech...that sucks monkey ball sack.

Silverback
11-04-2004, 07:13 PM
I got this from a very disappointed friend, today.

I have to say, I think my main reason is 10.











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Published on Wednesday, November 3, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

Ten Reasons Not to Move to Canada

by Sarah Anderson


Ready to say screw this country and buy a one-way ticket north? Here are some reasons to stay in the belly of the beast.

1. The Rest of the World. After the February 2003 antiwar protests, the New York Times described the global peace movement as the world's second superpower. Their actions didn't prevent the war, but protestors in nine countries have succeeded in pressuring their governments to pull their troops from Iraq and/or withdraw from the so-called coalition of the willing. Antiwar Americans owe it to themajority of the people on this planet who agree with them to stay and do what they can to end the suffering in Iraq and prevent future pre-emptive wars.

2. People Power Can Trump Presidential Power. The strength of social movements can be more important than whoever is in the White House. Example: In 1970, President Nixon supported the Occupational Safety and Health Act, widely considered the most important pro-worker legislation of the last 50 years. It didnt happen because Nixon loved labor unions, but because union power was strong. Stay and help build the peace, economic justice, environmental and other social movements that can make change.

3. The great strides made in voter registration and youth mobilization must be built on rather than abandoned.

4. Like Nicaraguans in the 1980s, Iraqis Need U.S. Allies. After Ronald Reagan was re-elected in 1984, progressives resisted the urge to flee northwards and instead stayed to fight the U.S. governments secret war of arming the contras in Nicaragua and supporting human rights atrocities throughout Central America. Iraq is a different scenario, but we can still learn from the U.S.-Central America solidarity work that exposed illegal U.S. activities and their brutal consequences and ultimately prevailed by forcing a change in policy.

5. We Can't Let up on the Free Trade Front Activists have held the Bush administration at bay on some issues. On trade, opposition in the United States and in developing countries has largely blocked the Bush administrations corporate-driven trade agenda for four years. The President is expected to soon appoint a new top trade negotiator to break the impasse. Whoever he picks would love to see a progressive exodus to Canada.

6. Barak Obama. His victory to become the only African-American in the U.S. Senate was one of the few bright spots of the election. An early opponent of the Iraq war, Obama trounced his primary and general election opponents, even in white rural districts, showing he could teach other progressives a few things about broadening their base. As David Moberg of In These Times puts it, Obama demonstrates how a progressive politician can redefine mainstream political symbols to expand support for liberal policies and politicians rather than engage in creeping capitulation to the right.

7. Say so long to the DLC. Barry Goldwater suffered a resounding defeat when he ran for president against Lyndon Johnson in 1964, but his campaign spawned a conservative movement that eventually gained control of the Republican Party and elected Ronald Reagan in 1980. Progressives should see the excitement surrounding Dean, Kucinich, Moseley Braun, and Sharpton during the primary season as the foundation for a similar takeover of the Democratic Party.

8. 2008. President Bush is entering his second term facing an escalating casualty rate in Iraq, a record trade deficit, a staggering budget deficit, sky-high oil prices, and a deeply divided nation. As the Republicans face likely failure, progressives need to start preparing for regime change in 2008 or sooner. Remember that Nixon was re-elected with a bigger margin than Bush, but faced impeachment within a year.

9. Americans are Not All Yahoos. Although I wouldn't attempt to convince a Frenchman of it right now, many surveys indicate that Americans are more internationalist than the election results suggest. In a September poll by the University of Maryland, majorities of Bush supporters expressed support for multilateral approaches to security, including the United States being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (68%), the International Criminal Court (75%), the treaty banning land mines (66%), and the Kyoto Treaty on climate change (54%). The problem is that most of these Bush supporters werent aware that Bush opposed these positions. Stay and help turn progressive instincts into political power.

10. Winter. Average January temperature in Ottawa: 12.2°F. Sarah Anderson ([email protected] ([email protected])) is a fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies (http://www.ips-dc.org/).
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Adina
11-04-2004, 07:28 PM
Here's a fun website for all of you who want to high-tail it out of the USA:

www.escapeartist.com

It's good fantasizing material.

azamber
11-04-2004, 07:43 PM
Love your post Silverback!

And in response to deogal. I have a hard time believing the majority act that way, maybe under Islamic Law, but how many people are living under that system anyway? I do not know, and I don't have time to look it up right now. Does anyone know more about this for a fact?

And deogal, where did you see this? If it could be proven to me that the majority of Muslims are this way, I will change my opinion. Maybe they were where you were at, but is it representative of all Muslims in other areas?

I still won't think we should just wipe them all out. In early Europe, similar methods of torture were used and we evolved from that, no reason to think others are incapable of evolution. Yeah, maybe they're a little behind us, but ignorance is no reason for death and religious wars.

Casual Observer
11-04-2004, 10:03 PM
If it could be proven to me that the majority of Muslims are this way, I will change my opinion. Maybe they were where you were at, but is it representative of all Muslims in other areas?

The silence from Muslim nations and communities in the West speaks volumes about their acceptance--either tacit or implicit--of terror against Western Civilization.

Until there is an Islamic reformation like the one that tore through Christian Europe in the 1500s, there will be no progress in Muslim nations.

madgrad
11-05-2004, 01:24 AM
The silence from Muslim nations and communities in the West speaks volumes about their acceptance--either tacit or implicit--of terror against Western Civilization.

Until there is an Islamic reformation like the one that tore through Christian Europe in the 1500s, there will be no progress in Muslim nations.

Right on Target, Casual Observer.

madgrad
11-05-2004, 01:43 AM
I also forgot to mention that Turkey is a Muslim Nation with real progress due to thier Secularity and proximity to Europe. Turkey also a Mutual Defense Treaty with Isreal too. Jordan even though behind the west; is slowy making progress in their economy with some western style buisness reforms. So there is hope for the future.

Djoser
11-05-2004, 02:03 AM
"President Bush is entering his second term facing an escalating casualty rate in Iraq, a record trade deficit, a staggering budget deficit, sky-high oil prices, and a deeply divided nation. As the Republicans face likely failure, progressives need to start preparing for regime change in 2008 or sooner. Remember that Nixon was re-elected with a bigger margin than Bush, but faced impeachment within a year."

Don't be running off yet.

Stay and let's fight this son-of-a-bitch, and hope that some of the dirt that is bound to be under that squeaky-clean image surfaces--just like it did with Nixon.

Impeachment by 1006, perhaps...

Pan Dah
11-05-2004, 03:57 AM
Impeachment by 1006, perhaps...
Dick Cheney undoubtedly appreciates your support.