PDA

View Full Version : Breaking News!



azamber
11-05-2004, 03:06 PM
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041105/D865R1DO0.html

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said...

CAN WE GET BACK TO HAND COUNTING PAPER BALLOTS????

hardkandee
11-05-2004, 03:18 PM
Geez.

Seriously though, if computers are going to cause trouble just do it the old fashioned way!!! That way there is a paper trail, things can be recounted and everyone is happy happy happy.
I don't care if I have to wait a month for the results, I just want to know everything is being done right. Let's try and keep things kosher guys!

azamber
11-05-2004, 03:25 PM
Technology can be tampered with, as it is being shown. Human error won't "delete" votes, and you can always double check later with a paper trail. What's a receipt going to do if the final vote doesn't reflect yours? How will you know? Problem with e-voting has already been proven - Hackers

Casual Observer
11-05-2004, 03:38 PM
^ I'm with TL on this one, rare as that may be.

If you think that paper trails are a guarantee of integrity in the system, you're not remembering the Nixon-JFK election where the votes in Chicago weren't counted until they "figured out" how many JFK needed to win. Paper and punch balloting is part of the problem, not the solution.

I'll go with the machines--optical, touch screen, et al. It doesn't prevent invalidation of votes--which happens in every election due to voter error--but it's a lot smoother and efficient.

VenusGoddess
11-05-2004, 03:44 PM
Well, I thought I heard that there were some ballot problems in FL, as well. Some people had problems with a ballot, filled one out, sent it in and then were sent another ballot in which they filled out again (or something along those lines). At the time of the election counting, they "knew" of the problem, but didn't know how many people double voted...

Eh, Florida...you think they'd learn after the last election...but apparently not. :blech:

azamber
11-05-2004, 03:44 PM
LOL Remembering? I'm not that old, and unfortunately, I'm not all that knowledgeable of American political history.

Interesting point, hadn't thought of it that way (that's why I love you guys!)

But I would trade smoothness and efficiency for accuracy any day.

Casual Observer
11-05-2004, 04:01 PM
^ Az, when you think of accuracy, remember that the biggest risk factor in determining where and when voting problems crop up happens with the person pulling the lever, touching the screen or filling in the circles on the optical ballot. Also take into account there are going to be problems whenever you have 120 million people voting...

It's like user error on a computer--you can only handicap that so much without hamstringing the entire process. Error is built into the tabulation process.

Deogol
11-05-2004, 04:41 PM
^ Az, when you think of accuracy, remember that the biggest risk factor in determining where and when voting problems crop up happens with the person pulling the lever, touching the screen or filling in the circles on the optical ballot. Also take into account there are going to be problems whenever you have 120 million people voting...

It's like user error on a computer--you can only handicap that so much without hamstringing the entire process. Error is built into the tabulation process.

Error was certainly built into paper ballots, that is for sure!

And before the ballot, there is going to be error in who can and cannot cast a ballot.

No system is infallible.

MisfitBunnie
11-05-2004, 04:48 PM
As soon as the voting system is completely computerized, you can say goodbye to your votes. They WILL be tampered with and fixed.

I say we stick to the old fashioned punch-card ballots.

Gabe
11-05-2004, 05:56 PM
I like the computerized version better. Easier to follow and faster.

No reported errors so far, althought the county I live in (Hudson County) is the most corrupt county in the whole UNITED STATES. I think My great grandfather voted lol.

azamber
11-05-2004, 07:01 PM
Gabe, this is from the article:

"The Ohio glitch is among a handful of computer troubles that have emerged since Tuesday's elections.

In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did. And in San Francisco, a malfunction with custom voting software could delay efforts to declare the winners of four races for county supervisor."


IMO, this is just the beginning.

montythegeek
11-05-2004, 07:09 PM
I actually like the system my town used, a fill in the holes SAT-style sheet read by an optical scanner. It is fast, easily checkable and a total recount of the entire town of 25K people would have taken about an hour. My name was checked before I got the ballot and when I turned it in.

Beats the annoying voting machines they had before and adding capacity for a precinct cost about $20 bucks a booth for panels and cheap fabric walls.

The system definitely needs a paper backup to audit.

In the Ohio example there were 2 backup systems to cross check against. A paper ballot is an automatically backed up system which works even if the power goes out. I am just waiting for some evildoer to attempt to influence an election by playing with the electrical supply by messing with the voltage or causing surges or drops.

RedZ28
11-05-2004, 07:21 PM
Gabe,
I'm sure of how corrupt Hudson is. Several mayors of Jersey City in the past were convicted criminals one democrat and one republican. And I'm pretty sure the dead seem to vote democrat by a wide margin lol.

Gabe
11-05-2004, 11:52 PM
Read any major civil law / law book and I gurantee Hudson County is mentioned multiple times.

Melonie
11-06-2004, 03:15 AM
The fact that it was quickly discovered and corrected that one precinct computer somehow registered 3,893 extra votes for GWB, and that several Florida computers registered a few hundred votes each for Kerry the minute the polls opened, is a testament to the redundancy and cross-checking features which only a computerized voting network can provide. Having precinct computers connected to county and state computers via a private network basically provides triple redundancy, which is how the 4500 NC vote overrun on a precinct computer's memory cartridge was discovered and those votes restored from the county-wide computer's disk. Applying a statewide database of registered voters, convicted felons not eligible to vote, etc. is far more accurate than precincts or counties operating as independent voting islands with no means to cross-check that a person was indeed eligible to vote or that a person has already voted in a different precinct ! Applying a nationwide database of registered voters eventually will be even better, as this will allow cross-checking of people voting in person in one state and also voting by absentee ballot in a different state (something like 50,000 double state voters were discovered in Florida in the last election when voter registrations in Georgia and South Carolina were manually cross-checked against people who actually voted in Florida).

Even with small glitches, I certainly trust computer data more than a back room full of local election politicos shaking the "hanging chads" out of punch card ballots in heavily Democratic precincts, or shoe boxes full of (one and only) punch card ballots suddenly "disappearing" between the local Republican precinct office and the Democratic county elections commission !

Alanna
11-07-2004, 05:04 AM
You gotta be kidding me... you people trust the computers??? Do yourselfs a favor and read up on these black boxes. Who owns them, who those people are affiliated with, the fact that they were DESIGNED to have a "back door" and a "double set of books", the fact that the software cannot be examined because the companies who came up with this crap claims that their code is "trade secret," and on and on and on...

You can start here:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org

It's a lot of reading and it's technical. I'm no techie, but it wasn't too difficult to figure out. These machines are the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the American people... and guess what? It works... for vote stealing that is. This election was STOLEN and it wasn't the first one. Some of us already knew that this one would be. Hopefully, this time we can do something about it... and we're busting our humps to prove it this time.

We begged Nader (Kerry and Edwards were/are suspiciously AWOL) to do something to help, and he's gotten together with other independent candiates, Cobb and Badnarik in an effort to do something about this friggin' scam. This development is VERY recent. Nader filed in New Hampshire to get a recount of the votes as that state has total paper ballot back up and can set a precident for recounts in other states (namely Ohio and Florida). Badnarik's campaign manager said that he (Badnarik) has an interest in doing something in Ohio and that all three independent candidates have a press conference scheduled for next Tuesday (11/9/04).

Notice the vaporization of the entire Democratic party? Think they're all hiding under their beds? Probably not. Here's part of a criptic message from Elizabeth Edwards that she left on a message board she's read for a long time:

"Now that I have more time, I will post some, too. But today I want to share something inspiring, part of a letter from Thomas Jefferson. This is from the new Bernstein biography of Jefferson. Jefferson sent the letter in 1798 after the passage of the Sedition Act:

"A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt. If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake." "

Jeff Fisher, the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District, said on Saturday (11/6/04) he was waiting for the FBI to show up because he said he has evidence that not only was the Florida election hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this election but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb (as you may recall, Jeb ended up running against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat... or did he?). Fisher said "It was practice for a national effort."

Fisher ain't the only one.

The Nazi's in office made a frantic effort to shove these machines down the throats of all the states in the last few years and spent BILLIONS to do it for the specific purpose of stealing votes without having to worry about getting caught... except maybe this time we can prove it. If we can't, until we can get rid of these machines we're living in Nazi America - THAT'S WHAT THEY WANTED.

Casual Observer
11-07-2004, 05:52 AM
Took a bit, but Godwin's Law has killed this thread.

Thanks for playing.

discretedancer
11-07-2004, 06:45 AM
Touch screen or other computer based system, with a paper printout that is held 1 copy for the voter and 1 for a ballot box (which is retained by a bonded third party) seems the safest....BUT ANY SYSTEM CAN AND WILL BE F*&**ed WITH.

What we as a country need to do is realize that, as our grandparents did, find the best system and live with it. No one tried to invalidate the Nixon/JFK election (or the one before where Nixon stuffed the boxes) - that would simply make our system look bad to the rest of the world and erode voter confidence.

I don't like GW, but he's elected and we must move on. Find the best system, yes, but realize we have a president - for good or terrible.