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Lilith
11-14-2004, 01:49 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6468373/?GT1=5809 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6468373/?GT1=5809)



MIAMI - Police have acknowledged using a stun gun to immobilize a 12-year-old girl just weeks after an officer jolted a first-grader with 50,000 volts.


The article says that they might be reviewing their policy. Gee. Ya think?

Farrah_Holiday
11-14-2004, 01:52 PM
Damn !

BigGreenMnM
11-14-2004, 02:22 PM
I dunno,im glad they zapped the lil sucker.I support what they did 100%.
heres why i think that,put that rope and those torches away!!

It doesnt matter if its a mentally unstable full grown adult swinging broken glass,or a six year old mentally unstable kid swinging a piece of broken glass.Its a weapon!!!!
The glass still cuts cops and can still cut the person swinging it.Just dog piling the kid with a bunch of cops runs the risk of someone comming down on the glass in the heap.(kinda like in a bar fight,never go down on the floor,thats where all the broken glass is!)
Anyone here try to restrain a 6 year old who is freaking out ,even without broken glass in his hands?HA!!!Its like a greased pig!
I know it sounds shocking(heheheh lil joke)but without a doubt,it was the safest way to secure the situation,for the cops(most important)and then the perpatrator.(only important to the media because its a kid)
The cop wasnt alone,a few cops were there,i guess they all thought it was the safest way to bring the situation under control,for everyone involved,including the kid,or they would have used mace or clubs right???
The stun gun used is safe on people over 60 lbs,thats about the size of a 6 year old on average.They dont have any studies i have seen on affects of the gun under 60 lbs.
If used correctly,this methode is very safe and works real real good.

Would you still feel upset if the 6 year old had been holding a gun??
A Knife??
A sharp piece of glass?

If it were you facing the same situation,wouldnt you want the safest,most efficeint solution availiable? thats the stun gun.
I reccommend all entertainers carry one in their purse.Mace pisses people off and doesnt always end the problem,a stun gun ends the problem in a milasecond,no discussions.
If its legal in your state,get one IMO.
I think if more people were aware of a stun guns bennifits and capeabilities,this wouldnt even be questioned except by a story hungry media.


Im only talking about the 6year old case.I have heard of the 12 year old but have not read up on all the details.

Lilith
11-14-2004, 02:34 PM
The details are in the article I linked to; they didn't have the Stupid Cop Redux info in my morning news either. It's a copyright thing (MSNBC news site) else I would have copy and pasted the whole article.

In my opinion, and I say this from the bottom of my heart, these fellows are the biggest bunch of limp-wristed, pantywaist PUSSIES I have ever or will ever hear of. A six year old. Gee. A six year old facing down several full-grown, security trained adults, even. Wow. I'm sure they were in fear of their very lives. Just for the record, I am five feet tall, weight 113 pounds soaking wet and am damn near nine months pregnant. There isn't a six year old alive I can't take ('cause I'm just so much more macho than the cops, I guess).

He might have had a gun? A knife? I don't give a good goddamn if he MIGHT had a fecking flamethrower loaded with liquid nitrogen. He didn't and "might" doesn't turn these wussified sadists into heroes.

Jay Zeno
11-14-2004, 02:47 PM
If I were approaching an angry six-year-old, having raised one or more of them, it would not even occur to me to use a weapon. That's obscene. Do we understand how freakin small that child is? Kindergarten age.

VADEN
11-14-2004, 03:14 PM
Being the mother of a 5 year old, I think that since the child did have a broken piece of glass as a weapon, that the cops did the best thing for everyone. The child could have cut himself with the glass. I agree on doing what you need to do to immobilize the child, still keeping him out of harm that is....

If the child had not had a weapon and was just flipping out, then I would agree with Lilith. If several grown adults can't take down a 6 year old child, that's crazy!! ::)

sol_de_pr2
11-14-2004, 03:25 PM
Sure hope the poor kid does not get processed for obstruction of justice or resisting an arrest!

BigGreenMnM
11-14-2004, 03:29 PM
If I were approaching an angry six-year-old, having raised one or more of them, it would not even occur to me to use a weapon. That's obscene. Do we understand how freakin small that child is? Kindergarten age.
They approached an angry kid,they didnt know he was 6 or 8 or a short 12.
The kid had a full grown adult security person pinned to the wall.
The child holding the glass had already cut himself a few times and was bleeding,nobody knew how bad the kid was hurt.

It wasnt pretty,but the situation was ended,without additional injuries to anyone instantly.Everyone went home that night without getting hurt.
Job well done,paycheck earned imo.
A non lethal solution to a lethal situation.Isnt that what people have been screaming for over decades??
Could most adults subdue a 6 year old,sure,but its gonna take a sec.And thats NOT with the threat of a weapon.
i guess the cop decided that there was a slight chance that he or the kid could get hurt,so he took the safest option avail to them at that moment.

This is just media shock drama.

I wonder if the security guard(pussy he may be)has given his impressions of the inncedent.I wonder if he is happy they used it.

As for the girl,and whats in the description of the details in the link,it sounds like he saved this drunk childs life.I hope he gets a medal,or at least a thank you card from her folks.

have you never seen a drunk walk into a wall??
The cop stopped a 12 year old from walking into traffic.
Again,job well done,paycheck earned.

Jay Zeno
11-14-2004, 03:51 PM
What a society:

1) When we have security guards in an elementary school.

2) When we have an elementary school security guard who can't subdue an angry kindergartener who has a piece of glass.

3) When we have a principal who feels compelled to call the cops for a kindergartner and can't take care of the kid himself.

4) When we have a cop who feels compelled to taze a six-year-old rather than say, 'Kid, gimme that, or I'll take it away myself and haul you off to jail," and make it happen. (Personally, I wouldn't bet that a Taser might not stop a six-year-old's heart.)

5) When we have a six-year-old kid who feels empowered enough to break a picture and use broken glass to threaten people with.

Has no one else here even taken care of an angry kid? Absent a gun, is there really any problem? I've always felt a bit out of the Reality Zone in this PP section, and this defense of hitting a six-year-old with 50,000 volts just reinforces that.

VADEN
11-14-2004, 03:55 PM
What a society:

1) When we have security guards in an elementary school.

2) When we have an elementary school security guard who can't subdue an angry kindergartener who has a piece of glass.

3) When we have a principal who feels compelled to call the cops for a kindergartner and can't take care of the kid himself.

4) When we have a cop who feels compelled to taze a six-year-old rather than say, 'Kid, gimme that, or I'll take it away myself and haul you off to jail," and make it happen. (Personally, I wouldn't bet that a Taser might not stop a six-year-old's heart.)

5) When we have a six-year-old kid who feels empowered enough to break a picture and use broken glass to threaten people with.

Has no one else here even taken care of an angry kid? Absent a gun, is there really any problem? I've always felt a bit out of the Reality Zone in this PP section, and this defense of hitting a six-year-old with 50,000 volts just reinforces that.
Yikes! That is a scary thought....:-\

Tigerlilly
11-14-2004, 04:07 PM
If I were approaching an angry six-year-old, having raised one or more of them, it would not even occur to me to use a weapon. That's obscene. Do we understand how freakin small that child is? Kindergarten age.
I'm with Jay on this one-- there is NEVER a reason to use a weapon on a small child >:(

BigGreenMnM
11-14-2004, 04:18 PM
Yes its a scarey thought,but i wouldnt bet on it.

Postal carriers use them on dogs that weigh less then 30 lbs,the dogs dont die,just go to sleep real fast.

Should we stop full grown adult letter carriers from using them on dogs??

This is a far softer response imo then Mace would have been.I would have had issue with mace being used in the situation.

There are studies done on people over 60 lbs,none that can be found on under 60.
But a safe bet would be that if it doesnt kill a dog,it wont kill a kid,just put them to bed real fast.

Here is my impression of the kids statement to the media...

<<crouches down to look shorter>>
"i was angry.I was hurting myself.I was trying to hurt others.
The police man got there and told me to put it down.I didnt listen and went to sleep."

"When i woke up,i wasnt angry anymore,my boo boo's had bandaids on them,the other people didnt get hurt,and i was home safe with my mother,like they were home safe with their families."
"can i go play sega now?"

If i was a betting man,i would bet he will be the best behaved kid in school for awhile.

Tigerlilly
11-14-2004, 04:26 PM
^YIKES !!! Cant believe that I even have to point this out-- kids and dogs are not the same :O

Jay Zeno
11-14-2004, 04:34 PM
Without trying to be personal about it, to biologically compare a dog of any size with a six-year-old human kid is mind-boggling to me. I can detail the few thousand differences, but must I? Really?

I don't care if mail carriers use mace on threatening dogs. I would much rather face a pissed-off six-year-old than a moderately irate dog. I've been hurt by dogs. They are fast, and they have teeth, and they were born knowing how to use them. I haven't been hurt by six-year-olds, except for their heads being about groin height when they run up for a hug.

As far as betting, when you're talking about 50,000 volts, 40 pounds of human wrapped around a still-developing heart, brain, and internal organs, I wouldn't even take a 1 out of 10,000 chance. Of course, I didn't realize it wasn't any different than lying down for a nap. I've been zapped with an open current, and it didn't feel like a nap to me, but I'm way past six years old and 40 pounds, too.

I have no doubt the kid will be well-behaved. I think that's Chapter 1 of Raising Your Child. "If you're having problems, a nice dose of 50,000 volts will bring little Johnny right in line."

What an unreal conversation this is. Man.

primetime21
11-14-2004, 06:52 PM
What a society:

1) When we have security guards in an elementary school.

2) When we have an elementary school security guard who can't subdue an angry kindergartener who has a piece of glass.

3) When we have a principal who feels compelled to call the cops for a kindergartner and can't take care of the kid himself.

.Jay, the first three points you made all stem from the number of lawsuits filed and actually won in court that had no reason being there. Everyone decides if it is worth taking the risk, and when they don't they call in someone else to do what used to be their job. North America has become such a litigious society that pretty soon if you look at someone the wrong way you will get sued. I think Shakespeare had it right, something about killing all the lawyers. All of these situations now end up with the police having to clean up the mess, and heh, they aren't perfect, but 20 years ago they wouldn't have had to be called to a situation like this.

Chani_Fremen
11-14-2004, 07:08 PM
I am 5 foot 3 and 105 lbs. How difficult can it be to subdue a 6 year old with a piece of glass? If he had a gun, yeah, that would be a different story, but a piece of glass?!?! How difficult is it to grab the kid and apprehend the piece of glass. Besides the fact that 6 year olds are very small with very short limbs, 6 year old kids are generally NOT all that coordinated. I'm sure the kid wasn't some expert as glass wielding. Dogs are much more dangerous than 6 year old kids, they can run a lot faster, jump, not to mention their teeth, (I work as a Veterinary Assistant and KNOW dogs.) I have also worked in a day care and 6 year old kids can't hold a candle next to what a dog can do. Also, I would hope that the police would put a CHILD's saftey above their own. That's their job.

Chani_Fremen
11-14-2004, 07:15 PM
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special19/articles/0718taser-main18.html

Tasers can be deadly. Also, I highly doubt that tasers were ever tested on 6 year old children to see the effects.

Also being shocked by a taser isn't a nice "going to sleep" you are fully conscious while it is happening and it hurts very badly.

VenusGoddess
11-14-2004, 07:30 PM
I think it's pretty sad that a POLICE officer thinks so little of his own "hand-to-hand" skills compared to a 6 year old that he used a taser. I think the kids parents should sue the bastard.

I have 6/7 year old little boys around here and I could easily over-take them if need be.

Some people were just not meant to be Police Officers...I think this is a good example of that...along with the moron who cannot seem to "control" a 12 year old.

Morons.

LauraLove
11-14-2004, 09:55 PM
I can't believe anyone could compare a kindergarden child to a rabbid dog! A thing like that says alot about a persons character. That officer needs a complete mental workup and therapy as well as at least a year in jail.

Jay Zeno
11-14-2004, 10:47 PM
Jay, the first three points you made all stem from the number of lawsuits filed and actually won in court that had no reason being there. Everyone decides if it is worth taking the risk, and when they don't they call in someone else to do what used to be their job. North America has become such a litigious society that pretty soon if you look at someone the wrong way you will get sued. I think Shakespeare had it right, something about killing all the lawyers. All of these situations now end up with the police having to clean up the mess, and heh, they aren't perfect, but 20 years ago they wouldn't have had to be called to a situation like this. Litigation is the straw man that people like to blame the ills of society on, forgetting that litigation against negligence and malicious actions also helps to prompt changes in society that wouldn't otherwise occur. I think that security in schools has been made more necessary by the general lack of responsibility of parents in raising well-behaved kids, the inability of the school system to use effective means on their own in discipline, general lack of human respect, little things like Columbine (further comment declined lest Cas.Obs. take me to task), and many other factors - including litigation.

But that's beside the point. Whatever the reasons are for security guards in elementary school and police being called for an elementary school situation, my whole commentary on that was, "What a society."

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 01:23 AM
^YIKES !!! Cant believe that I even have to point this out-- kids and dogs are not the same :OI was talking weights and measures.
The example was a 30 lb dog not dieing when zapped.The average weight of a 3 year old.(not that i think 3 year olds should be zapped)
Im aware of the differences,its the two legs,four legs that gives it away for us folks that didnt get to much book learnin.Some say always check the adams apple,but i just look for da thumbs.

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 01:41 AM
I am 5 foot 3 and 105 lbs. How difficult can it be to subdue a 6 year old with a piece of glass? If he had a gun, yeah, that would be a different story, but a piece of glass?!?! How difficult is it to grab the kid and apprehend the piece of glass. Besides the fact that 6 year olds are very small with very short limbs, 6 year old kids are generally NOT all that coordinated. I'm sure the kid wasn't some expert as glass wielding.
If that were the case,why didnt the teacher grab the kid??
The principle??
the security guard pinned to the wall??
the first few cops that got there??

Maybe he was a bruce lee mini me!!

He had cut himself a few times and was bleeding BEFORE the cops got there.
Why didnt a school full of professionaly trained teachers,trained to deal with 6 year olds,why didnt they grab the kid??
All the adults in that school didnt stop him,and i didnt read any stories of an adult objecting just before the police zapped him.Where is their face on CNN????
How come the only adults who are objecting to this were not there??

BTW.did anyone ever figure out what pissed this little guy off so it wont happen again??

primetime21
11-15-2004, 06:58 AM
Litigation is the straw man that people like to blame the ills of society on, forgetting that litigation against negligence and malicious actions also helps to prompt changes in society that wouldn't otherwise occur. I think that security in schools has been made more necessary by the general lack of responsibility of parents in raising well-behaved kids, the inability of the school system to use effective means on their own in discipline, general lack of human respect, little things like Columbine (further comment declined lest Cas.Obs. take me to task), and many other factors - including litigation.

But that's beside the point. Whatever the reasons are for security guards in elementary school and police being called for an elementary school situation, my whole commentary on that was, "What a society."
I can see your point Jay, and yes society is fucked up, but I believe that having security guards in school is only partially for security reasons, and more for any potential lawsuits that could come up. Between security guards and metal detectors, school budgets have that much less for teachers and text books. In this situation the security guard didn't do any good as the police were still called. School boards are too worried about lawsuits when they should be worried about teaching the students.

NikkiD
11-15-2004, 07:57 AM
Wow. And in some places it's illegal to simply swat a child on the butt.

RedZ28
11-15-2004, 11:46 AM
Spanking may not be in the answer, but back in the day it seems as if the children were a bit more well behaved. How the six year old was able to pin a security guard to a wall makes me wonder two things. First, does this guy moonlight as a rent-a-cop at the mall too and second, what was the kid on, I doubt it was just excess sugar. If all those people couldn't subdue him without resorting to that, they are either improperly trained or there must have been a good reason.

Lilith
11-15-2004, 02:51 PM
Oh! Oh! *waves hand in air* I know, I know! Pick me!

The answer is "improperly trained" (and "sadistic asshats" for the bonus points). Witness that mere weeks after the first situation, a police officer with the same office tasered a fleeing 12 year old girl in the back. Incident the first on top of incident the second (both involving children) on top of not-too-past allegations of police brutality for Miami-Dade officers adds up to coincidence only in the magical land of Don't Think So.

Tigerlilly
11-15-2004, 04:22 PM
BTW.did anyone ever figure out what pissed this little guy off so it wont happen again??This should be first on the list of things to do for the parents-imo. I know little ones have tantrums but this rings alarm bells. :O


mere weeks after the first situation, a police officer with the same office tasered a fleeing 12 year old girl in the back. Incident the first on top of incident the second (both involving children) on top of not-too-past allegations of police brutality for Miami-Dade officers adds up to coincidence only in the magical land of Don't Think So.I agree 100%--there is NO EXCUSE to have used a weapon on a kid barely out of diapers >:( -- the cop needs to be fired and have charges brought up against him as well as see a shrink.

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 04:34 PM
Oh! Oh! *waves hand in air* I know, I know! Pick me!

The answer is "improperly trained" (and "sadistic asshats" for the bonus points). Witness that mere weeks after the first situation, a police officer with the same office tasered a fleeing 12 year old girl in the back. Incident the first on top of incident the second (both involving children) on top of not-too-past allegations of police brutality for Miami-Dade officers adds up to coincidence only in the magical land of Don't Think So.
Its hard to say what would sell more headlines....

1.drunk 12 year old run over in traffic
2.6 year old cuts juggler of 65 year old school security guard.
3.those got dammed cops are abusing kids.

I guess since it was a safe ending to the situation,not alot of choices left for the media,they had to pick door number 3.

Thank goodness huh??

These cops and both situations are being tried in the media with shock value and little details.

Ask yourself this before you decide guilty or not.(even though from what i have seen,once someone said cop and kid,its instant guilt)

With all the adults and witnesses at both situations that were NOT cops,how come no charges are being filed against the cops?
How come the media cant find one,just one,person who will stand up and say something was done wrong or out of line or even illegal??

If something wrong was done to a kid,or something even doubtful,charges would have been filed and adults would be all over the news protesting what THEY saw.
The story isnt even front page anymore.
The media went digging and came up empty.

on top of not-too-past allegations of police brutality for Miami-Dade officers adds up to coincidence only in the magical land of Don't Think So.Me tinx your from the land of confusion more like it.Or a land where they hate police officers.:tilted:
I wonder if you ,and those that hold the same biased attitude towards police, will add these two situations to the "police brutality"list.:yes:

Rhiannon
11-15-2004, 04:37 PM
I think it was absolutely wrong. What was so hard about getting additional officers to come in from behind and grab the little guy, while he was focused on the officer(s) in front of him? It's not very hard to divert the attention of a 6 year old, I know, I have two children passed that age.

A stun gun is VERY dangerous. What may not damage an adult, can still injure a child pretty seriously.

Yeah, he had glass in his hand.. Yeah, he was smearing blood all over his face. Were they THAT afraid of him? What's next? An idiotic police officer actually SHOOTING a child with his gun?

I just can't believe that they didn't learn their lesson, and did it to another child. The effin morons.

Tigerlilly
11-15-2004, 04:40 PM
So BigGrn-- I guess you think its ok to use a weapon on a child barely older than a toddler... depending on the situation ???
yes/no ?


If so , I could not disagree more >:( Maybe its a female thing, or maybe its a mother thing. I just think that is soooooooooo wrong.

VenusGoddess
11-15-2004, 05:24 PM
Its hard to say what would sell more headlines....

1.drunk 12 year old run over in traffic
2.6 year old cuts juggler of 65 year old school security guard.
3.those got dammed cops are abusing kids.

I guess since it was a safe ending to the situation,not alot of choices left for the media,they had to pick door number 3.

Thank goodness huh??

These cops and both situations are being tried in the media with shock value and little details.

Ask yourself this before you decide guilty or not.(even though from what i have seen,once someone said cop and kid,its instant guilt)

With all the adults and witnesses at both situations that were NOT cops,how come no charges are being filed against the cops?
How come the media cant find one,just one,person who will stand up and say something was done wrong or out of line or even illegal??

If something wrong was done to a kid,or something even doubtful,charges would have been filed and adults would be all over the news protesting what THEY saw.
The story isnt even front page anymore.
The media went digging and came up empty.
Me tinx your from the land of confusion more like it.Or a land where they hate police officers.:tilted:
I wonder if you ,and those that hold the same biased attitude towards police, will add these two situations to the "police brutality"list.:yes: About the 12 year old. She's drunk...that means she's probably not at the height of her coordination. A full-grown, clean cop cannot RUN after her and subdue her? He cannot hold onto a KID? I find that a little preposterous. Of course, in this day and age...the cops are single-handedly keeping doughnut chains in business...

Personally, behavior from a cop like the discussion here should get him 1 more chance with the department. If they pull a stunt like this again, then they get fired. End of story. The department should be doing fitness exams and weigh-ins every month. If they cannot pass the test or are not at a healthy weight...then they should get suspended until they can pass the fitness/health exams or can run 6 feet without stopping for a few breaths. It's not discrimination...it's ability to do the job.

As for the adults not doing or saying anything while they see this happening...yeah...they must have been the same people who WATCHED a young girl get kidnapped in the mall parking lot.

People don't necessarily say anything when it doesn't involve them. That doesn't mean that the police are correct in their protocols.

I say sue the cops and then fire them. Let them get a job at the taser manufacturers as a testing dummy.

Rhiannon
11-15-2004, 05:26 PM
I say sue the cops and then fire them. Let them get a job at the taser manufacturers as a testing dummy.
Ooooh! I like that idea, Venus! LOL

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 05:32 PM
So BigGrn-- I guess you think its ok to use a weapon on a child barely older than a toddler... depending on the situation ???
yes/no ?The word weapon is very broad,but yes.
If its my kid,I say zapp them twice for good measure,just so they would remember what their father and mother taught then about immediatly complying to a lawful order from a police officer in uniform!
I also agree with the guys in Iraq who shoot a 5 year old who has a bomb strapped to his back and walking towards their bunker.
I wouldnt agree if these cops shot him with a gun or mace.I dont think they should have hit him with their clubs either.

Another question is about the film footage of the kid later that night.
Out in the street by himself.
where was the parent/s
He didnt even get grounded.

I dont think i would have let my kid out of the house for awhile,if i did,it wouldnt be alone.

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 05:35 PM
This should be first on the list of things to do for the parents-imo. I know little ones have tantrums but this rings alarm bells. :O
At least you see that the situation wasnt normal bye any means.
I just need you to admit that maybe,just maybe,a stun gun might have been the best answer to the situation.

Even the media has given up.
the police acted in the best interest of the child.

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 05:46 PM
BTW I know some of you have been digging like crazy to find it...

Anyone got a story about a kid croaking when zapped???

Anyone got a story about an adult that died from just being zapped???

anything???

anyone????

hellooooooooooooo

Why do you think almost every police officer in the country will be carrying one within 5 years??
100,000's of them already do.
The stun gun is the non lethal weapon of the future,thats why i think all entertainers should toss out the mace and get one.

doc-catfish
11-15-2004, 05:53 PM
Apparently this is going on more often than previously reported:

http://www.news4jax.com/news/3920847/detail.html

Political leaders are also questioning the policy of some Florida counties. Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, in Jacksonville Monday to discuss faith-based initiatives and attend a United Negro College Fund luncheon, said the need for Taser guns seemed unclear.

"It's hard for me to envision how a well-trained police officer would have a hard time subduing a 6-year-old," he said.

This year, there have been seven incidents in which officers used Tasers on children in Northeast Florida. Four of those occurred in Putnam County, and three in Clay County.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/2748427/detail.html

According to the resource officer's report:

"I deployed my taser … to her chest. [She] continued to struggle. … I touched [her] a second time on her back with my taser and attempted to place her on her stomach. [She] then jumped to her feet and pushed her teacher to the ground and began to run. …I then deployed the air cartridge. … [She] fell to the ground and I ordered her several times to put her hands behind her back. I engaged the taser, she attempted to get up I engaged the taser again for another cycle. She then was handcuffed."

Strange world. :loco:

VenusGoddess
11-15-2004, 05:55 PM
Hey, BigGreen:

Check out these links.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/07/19/health/main630519.shtml
http://www.indystar.com/articles/3/192547-5633-103.html
http://www.startribune.com/stories/467/5035741.html

The worst thing about using a stun gun on someone is that you do not know their medical history. If the person has a bad heart or is prone to a heart attack and you taser them...they are more likely to go into a cardiac arrest. Using stun guns on violent people is fine...using stun guns on everybody so you don't have to scuffle with them is a no-no. If someone doesn't want the "possiblity" of splitting their lip subduing someone, then law enforcement (at least the beat) is not in the cards for them. There is no excuse in using stronger force just because of the "risks" involved with the incident. That's a police officer's job.

VenusGoddess
11-15-2004, 05:57 PM
Oopsy...here's another article:

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1274&storyid=2233608

Safety concern on police stun gun

November 12, 2004

A MINISTERIAL advisory group expressed concern about the safety of stun guns before a Victoria Police trial of the weapons, a report obtained under Freedom of Information has revealed.

In the report obtained by a coalition of Victorian legal groups, the advisory group that discussed the possible introduction of Air Tasers said there was a lack of scientific evidence about their safety.

A 12-month trial of the guns by the force's special operations group is expected to end later this month.

In its report, the ministerial advisory group said the use of Tasers had been found to increase the risk of miscarriage in pregnant women, heart attack and stroke in people with cardiovascular disease and sudden death in people taking drugs.

Other groups on whom a Taser should not be used included children, adolescents, older people and people with mental illness.

The ministerial advisory group recommended a scientific evaluation of the guns be carried out.

"In the view of this group, it would not be possible for the Victorian government to make any decision with respect to the introduction of Air Tasers without a proper, evidence-based evaluative process," it said.

The 12-month trial was launched on the basis of a study on Tasers conducted by Melbourne's Alfred Hospital.

But the coalition of legal groups described the study as a literature review, saying the guns were dangerous and had resulted in 60 deaths in the United States.

"There is a place for the special operations group in emergency crisis situations to have this as an appropriate alternative to the use of lethal force," Liberty Victoria vice-president Brian Walters SC said.

"But more widespread issuing of them is quite out of place."

Mental Health Legal Centre spokeswoman Kate Lawrence said people with mental illnesses were commonly victims of stun guns.

She said mental health professionals should work with police as they had in the past in crisis situations.

Taser guns work by firing electrode tipped wires from a distance of up to 7m, the group said.

The two darts deliver a series of short 50,000-volt shocks over five seconds, briefly stunning the target.

Victorian Police Union secretary Paul Mullett said the coalition of legal groups should not deny police access to Tasers, which had been shown to be effective in disarming people without injuring them.

The guns had been issued to police forces in the United States, the United Kingdom and Europe, he said.

"They're entitled to their views, but we don't deny them or their members access to best practice equipment (such as) fountain pens (and) laptop computers," he said.

AAP

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 06:38 PM
sorry Venus,i shudda said,show me a story where a stun gun was proven to have killed someone.
The stories you provided are not that.Most say the gun "may"have contributed to the death.

The one where the jailer zapped him a zillion times....
well,it wasnt used right and he is being charged with the crime.

Show me evidence,not guesswork on the gun not being everything the maker claims,with the track record that it has.
Can someone show me a lawsuit against the taser company??Not an accusation,but a ruling against the company.
The facts mame<tips hat>just the facts.

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 06:42 PM
The worst thing about using a stun gun on someone is that you do not know their medical history. If the person has a bad heart or is prone to a heart attack and you taser them...they are more likely to go into a cardiac arrest.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Im sorry,if your involved in criminal activity,i think you should lose your right to a pre arrest physical screening before the cops slap the cuffs on ya.

call me crazy!!!!

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 06:45 PM
would you feel the same way if the 6 year old had a handgun???

Should he have been zapped then???

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 07:03 PM
...using stun guns on everybody so you don't have to scuffle with them is a no-no. If someone doesn't want the "possiblity" of splitting their lip subduing someone, then law enforcement (at least the beat) is not in the cards for them. There is no excuse in using stronger force just because of the "risks" involved with the incident. That's a police officer's job.Sorry your sooooooo wrong imo Venus.

We dont pay our police to scuffle.

a police officers job isnt to lay down his life and scuffle when a safe non lethal alternative is availiable.

Heres a common list of weapons on any given police officer's sam brown.

nightstick
9mm gun
mace
stun gun
The cop made the right choice imo for the situation.

How old does a person have to be before its ok in your book??
6 year old with glass?
8 year old with glass?
10 year old with glass?
12 year old with glass?
14 year old with glass?
16 year old with glass?
18 year old with glass?
adult with glass??

Lena
11-15-2004, 07:48 PM
That's crazy. I've worked with severely emotionally disturbed kids, and I've put a fifteen year old boy with a (small) pocket knife in restraint by myself. I've also broken up dog fights with my bare hands (and have the scars to prove it). I had only taken the two day restraint training when they hired me. I know cops get more training than that.

Sometimes you know your gonna get bit, or hit, or jabbed with a peice of glass (big fucking deal), and you do it anyways. If a person doesn't care enough about other human beings to take a glass jab rather than shoot a six year old with a taser, why the fuck are they a cop?

BigGreen, there is a huge difference between the cardiac system of a dog and a developing child.

Tigerlilly
11-15-2004, 07:49 PM
I just need you to admit that maybe,just maybe,a stun gun might have been the best answer to the situation.Never. There is never a reason, ever.


would you feel the same way if the 6 year old had a handgun???

Should he have been zapped then???Yes. I'd still feel the same. It is never right to use a weapon on a small child.

I do think there is something definatly not right with the situation even beyond the cop-- who was wrong, wrong, wrong. Anyone who would use any sort of weapon on a small child is cruel to the bone. That kid was crying/acting out for a reason that is beyond normal or healthy but it's does not excuse the actions of using a weapon.

Sitri
11-15-2004, 08:00 PM
At least you see that the situation wasnt normal bye any means.
I just need you to admit that maybe,just maybe,a stun gun might have been the best answer to the situation.

Even the media has given up.
the police acted in the best interest of the child.
Read the whole story and it still doesn't call for that type of response. If you or I or some other parent did this to our child, we would be in jail and the kid would be taken away.

Pamela
11-15-2004, 08:13 PM
The police actually hit twice now with these things. ONe young girl was going to take off in traffic, and the young boy was going to cut himself he said. I don't see why police just can't grab them, especially the girl if your that close.

Now we have a place down the street that says "Coming Soon!" Cell phones with a tasers! The news shows them as of no good use. I agree.

Pamela

BigGreenMnM
11-15-2004, 08:26 PM
Read the whole story and it still doesn't call for that type of response. If you or I or some other parent did this to our child, we would be in jail and the kid would be taken away.
I have read the stories,both situations had many adults involved.

Where are the charges on the cops?
Where are the witnesses condeming the cops action??
Wheres sharpton and jesse jackson?
wheres the naacp?
wheres the cival liberties union???
where is anyone other then the media saying this situation was handled incorrectly??

I would bet that if anything was done out of line to a 6 year old black kid by cops,all of the above would be all over it.
Now the story is just fading away.

Why is that???

VenusGoddess
11-15-2004, 08:48 PM
sorry Venus,i shudda said,show me a story where a stun gun was proven to have killed someone.
The stories you provided are not that.Most say the gun "may"have contributed to the death.
How else are you going to prove it? The person was living BEFORE being tasered and then after that was dead. "Reasonable inference" would be that the taser caused the death. May have contributed...does it matter? I'll bet that tackling the person would have prevented them from dying. The only other cause of death would be the moronic police officer using the taser.


Show me evidence,not guesswork on the gun not being everything the maker claims,with the track record that it has.
Can someone show me a lawsuit against the taser company??Not an accusation,but a ruling against the company.
The facts mame<tips hat>just the facts.
I've showed you the evidence that people have DIED from being tasered. It has nothing to do with faulty tasers...it has to do with the faulty "response" process by the person administering the tasers. You keep changing your story...what will it be now?

VenusGoddess
11-15-2004, 08:50 PM
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Im sorry,if your involved in criminal activity,i think you should lose your right to a pre arrest physical screening before the cops slap the cuffs on ya.

call me crazy!!!!
What does this have to do with tasering drunk children or children having an emotional breakdown and waving a piece of glass around?

In several of the news stories...it's not because someone was "armed and dangerous"...it was because the overweight, unconditioned police officer didn't want to raise his heart rate.

Gabe
11-15-2004, 08:51 PM
Taser the little bastards for a few minutes, maybe it will shock some sense into them and maybe their parents will feel it also.