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Daddyforhire
11-17-2004, 06:00 PM
Um, the estimations of the death toll for the Inquisition are between 600,000 and as high as 9,000,000
Actually there are about 5000 or less documented deaths in the 350 years or so the inquisition spans. Some other estimates:

Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834)

Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):

Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:

Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758.


PGtH: 8,800 deaths by burning, 1478-1496
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church (1910): 8,800 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada. (acc2 Buckle and Friedländer)
Motley, Rise of the Dutch Republic: 10,220 burnt in 18 years of Torquemada
Britannica: 2,000
Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual: 35,534 burned.
Fox's Book of Martyrs, Ch.IV: 32,000 burned
Paul Johnson A History of the Jews (1987): 32,000 k. by burning; 20,226 k. before 1540
Wertham: 250,000
Rummel: 350,000 deaths overall.
MEDIAN: 8,800 under Torq.; 32,000 all told.
Punished by all means, not death.


Fox: 309,000
P. Johnson: 341,000
Motley: 114,401

Djoser
11-17-2004, 08:27 PM
First, a little background information...

"The goal of the Inquisition was not the destruction of the heretics but rather their repentance. Burning at the stake was not common. The ordinary penalties were penance, fines and imprisonment. Penalties were often carried out by the local government, especially the death penalty. Because the fines extracted and the property of the accused was turned over to the local government which often returned a portion to the Church, graft, bribery and blackmail were common....

Unlike the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella, with only the reluctant approval of Pope Sixtus IV. The Roman Church's only hold over the Spanish Inquisition was the appointment of the inquisitor general, the first of which was Toms de Torquemada.

The purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to discover and punish converted Jews (and later Muslims) who were insincere. However, all Spaniards began to fear its prying eyes. The death penalty was used more often than in the Roman Inquisition, and rules that condemned one for heresy were far stricter, often outlawing things the Roman Church approved.

For centuries, the Jewish community in Spain had flourished and grown in numbers and influence, though anti-Semitism had from time to time made itself felt and pressure to convert was brought to bear on the Jews. Nominal converts from Judaism were called Marranos (Jews who had been baptized under duress, but were believed to be still surreptitiously practicing Judaism). After... the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (1469), the Marranos were denounced as a danger to the existence of Christian Spain." Suspected Marranos were tortured until they confessed to practicing Judaism, and then were burned to death en masse at an auto-da-fe.

After some fourteen years of torture and death by burning, in 1492, by edict, the Spanish Jews were given the choice of exile or baptism. Almost all Jews chose to leave at this time."

From another source:

Once accused, a defendant was provided the services of a lawyer, and he could not be examined by the officers of the court without the presence of two disinterested priests. The identity of the witnesses of his alleged crime, however, was not revealed to him, and so he could not confront them. This was a severe disadvantage, even though harsh punishment was meted out to those revealed to have been false accusers. Judges, not juries, decided questions of fact as well as of law, and in effect the Spanish Inquisition combined the functions of investigation, prosecution, and judgment. Indeed, anyone arrested by the Inquisition was presumed guilty until proven innocent, a circumstance very unsettling to us who have enjoyed the blessings of the English common law tradition.

Madcap
11-17-2004, 09:13 PM
The often cited Inquisition is nothing compared to the atrocities committed by godless dogs like Mao Zedong and Stalin.
Try again. The VAST majority of despots, murderers, and madmen who managed to gain power over Human history... have been theists. After all, Atheism has been a CRIME in most cultures since the dawn of time (Socrates was sentanced to death for it).

Hitler invoked the name of Christ very often in his speeches, for an example. Someone's religious conviction, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with the other parts of them, despite what so many say. DFH you name a whole 2 Atheists that grabbed power and massacred people (BTW, you forgot Pol Pot), and the scales are supposed to tip? How?

Was Atilla the Hun an Atheist? Was Bloody Mary?

Apologists amuse me.

Djoser
11-17-2004, 09:20 PM
"As the reconquista proceeded, therefore, and especially after Granada and the last remnant of Spanish Islam fell to the armies of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, policy-makers had to decide how to treat the Moors and the relatively small but influential Jewish community which, in marked contrast to what our century has witnessed, had flourished within a larger Islamic society. The Christian victors, fearful of Muslim sympathizers in their midst, offered no compromise: Moors and Jews had to accept baptism or face expulsion from the country now defined as entirely Catholic.

What this decision amounted to, of course, was a policy of forced conversion, something quite incompatible with traditional Catholic teaching."


That should be enough information to support my point, which was that "The Inquisition was far worse than what we are seeing today in the Islamic world."

The Spanish Inquisition cannot be compared with 9/11, which, by the way, was never my intention. One was an act of terrorism and destruction, utilizing mechanical means entirely unavailable and impossible to duplicate in the 16th century. The other was a concerted and prolonged reign of terror which made life miserable or impossible for anyone in the entire country who wished to exercise any sort of religious freedom whatsoever.

The extremely large populations of Moors and Jews were forced to submit, leave the country, or be executed. Legal rights were non-existent.

Though certain nations within "the Islamic world" have practiced brutality and repression on a scale approaching this--and even exceeded the total death count, thanks to modern technology and means of deliverance of lethality--the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with.

Preposterous, my ass...

SonicBones
11-17-2004, 09:30 PM
"Religion" By Public Image Limited

Stained glass windows keep the cold outside
While the hypocrites hide inside
With the lies of statues in their minds
Where the Christian religion made them blind
Where they hide
And prey to the God of a bitch spelled backwards is dog
Not for one race, one creed, one world
But for money
Effective
Absurd

Do you pray to the Holy Ghost when you suck your host
Do you read who’s dead in the Irish Post
Do you give away the cash you can’t afford
On bended knees and pray to lord
Fat pig priest
Sanctimonious smiles
He takes the money
You take the lies
This is religion and Jesus Christ
This is religion cheaply priced
This is bibles full of libel
This is sin in eternal hymn
This is what they’ve done
This is your religion
The apostles were eleven
Now there’s a sod in Heaven

This is religion
There’s a liar on the altar
The sermon never falter
This is religion
Your religion

Jay Zeno
11-17-2004, 09:42 PM
Oh, good, the evolution from tolerance to resentment to hatred and opposition can go both ways. The troubles of the world can be traced to a belief in a supreme being, or beings. How can we get rid of Christian conservatives.

The bark of opponents and proponents sound the same to me - they're just different dogs.

Madcap
11-17-2004, 09:56 PM
The troubles of the world can be traced to a belief in a supreme being, or beings.
Not really, but it does make for a great excuse for people to do what they wanted to do anyway. The troubles in the world can be placed in one spot, on people.

RYAN
11-17-2004, 10:34 PM
god is love.

SonicBones
11-17-2004, 11:05 PM
god is love. Who's God? My God? Your God? The people who kill in the name of their god as demonstrated on September 11? See it's not so simple when everyone is praying to a different god and reading their own meanings into their god's teachings. I think we all agree the concept of religion is a nice concept it's just not feasable in this world.

Djoser
11-18-2004, 01:47 AM
Religon is fine, though it is generally in effect a crutch, more than any real form of spiritual awareness.

If we all pray hard enough, Timmy's team will win the big game saturday. Who cares about the magical spark of Life, or the magnificence of the Universe--we just need God to help us get that raise, or maybe win that war against those filthy scum that don't believe in Him.

The problem comes into play when people--as they just can't seem to resist doing--begin to feel that their way is better, and gets worse when their Way is the only way, and worst, when anyone who disagrees must be burnt at the stake, or have their head cut off.

If we could all just agree that religon belongs at home, in the heart, and not in schools, speeches, laws, or foreign relations, then there would be no problem. Unfortunately history has proved that, thus far, this is nearly impossible.

Jesus Christ would be appalled at the butchery and brutality that has transpired in his name. But it's not his fault, rather that of those who initially spread the word. Christianity quickly became a militant religon which aspired to make all others obsolete, which is the main reason the Romans persecuted Christians while embracing myriad other forms of worship.

That is not to say that Christianity is inherently evil or wrong. If those who believed would just chill the fuck out and quit trying to convert all of the rest of us, or worse yet, force us to shape our behavior according to their notions of what God will accept, we wouldn't be having a problem, here...

Topaz
11-18-2004, 04:18 AM
all of this hate against God and those with faith in Him...why?...God doesn't hate...or kill...people do...people do...people do...there's a lot to be said about people who kill in the 'name of God'...what kind of bullshit is that...

religion is man made...and keeps people in bondage to man made rules...i'm christian...and i'm not religious...the two are not synonomous...at least for me they're not...

is everyone here going to hate me too...because i'm christian...just wanted to know...

bye...

Daddyforhire
11-18-2004, 06:09 AM
Though certain nations within "the Islamic world" have practiced brutality and repression on a scale approaching this--and even exceeded the total death count, thanks to modern technology and means of deliverance of lethality--the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with.



Thanks for the laugh. Never mind the fact that far more people are murdered and tortured, as long as they are being beheaded and bleed out instead of going on the rack everything is peachy eh? You had almost a passible arguement going until you threw that one out. Speaking as someone who has been to the middle east and who has had three close relatives employed over there for years in the 80's & 90's, I suggest you read up on conditions in post-Shah fundamentalist Iran, Taliban controlled Afghanistan, the Iraq-Iran war, and Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia before making such a sweeping statement. A book from a credible author as opposed to internet snippets would do you a much better favor.

Daddyforhire
11-18-2004, 06:12 AM
Try again. The VAST majority of despots, murderers, and madmen who managed to gain power over Human history... have been theists. After all, Atheism has been a CRIME in most cultures since the dawn of time (Socrates was sentanced to death for it).

How about you try again by rereading my statement. I specifically compared the inquisition to the acts of Zedong and Stalin. You tried to carry it over into warfare as a whole, which totally takes it out of context of my rebuttal to a previous statement.

VenusGoddess
11-18-2004, 09:15 AM
Well, I have to say...with all of the reading I've done about the Koran (Qu'ran) I've not found anything that justifies killing "non-believers". Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning. Just like our beloved (snicker) Catholic church has re-written, revised, edited, etc the Holy (huge) Bible...it is safe to say that the bible we see these days are NOT the same as the original bible. And, even THEN...the bible wasn't written while Jesus was standing on a rock preaching. Everything was taught by word of mouth. It wasn't until YEARS and YEARS later that the bible was written. Can anyone tell me that what they heard, they've ALWAYS repeated verbatim?

It's not possible.

Now...I'm jumping out of this debate...I'm not interested in arguing or disagreeing or whatever anymore. My research says that the Koran teaches tolerance and love. It's the interpretation of such things that teach everything that goes against that religion...just as it is with Catholicism.

BigGreenMnM
11-18-2004, 09:40 AM
Well, I have to say...with all of the reading I've done about the Koran (Qu'ran) I've not found anything that justifies killing "non-believers". Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning. Just like our beloved (snicker) Catholic church has re-written, revised, edited, etc the Holy (huge) Bible...I posted the verse Venus,even the surah number to make it easy to review for everyone who cared to join in the convo????

Great responses from everyone who responded.

mermaidnz
11-18-2004, 11:46 AM
topaz,

sure its the PEOPLE that kill. but its the religion that motivating them.

THATS whats bullshit.

threlayer
11-18-2004, 12:13 PM
Now...keep in mind...this book has been re-written, etc since it's beginning.
My research says that the Koran teaches tolerance and love. It's the interpretation of such things that teach everything that goes against that religion...just as it is with Catholicism.My understanding is that the Arabic version of the Koran has never been rewritten. I understand from the stories/legends that the Prophet had people helping him write it down as it was revealed to him over several years. It was originally written in Arabic in an era when the classical Arabic language was just being spread. That is the Arabic version that stands today, so I am told by all the Muslims I used to know.

The Koran has many translations, over 12 in English alone, and these all have different shades of meaning because of the nature of the Arabic language.

The Koran, like the Bible, has been widely interpreted to take on the meaning intended by the reader. Those interpretations are not translations; they are personal meanings for whomever had the motivation to do so.

I myself believe both the Koran and the Bible were written by men (or women) in their interpretation of some "divine revelations." I have no idea whre these "divine revelations" came from other than from within themselves. Further many rewritings/translations have been made. For the Muslims they believe that only the original classical Arabic Koran version has authority. Further, like all works intended to be interpreted, grasping any "true meaning" is very elusive and thus controversial.

SonicBones
11-18-2004, 12:43 PM
topaz,

sure its the PEOPLE that kill. but its the religion that motivating them.

THATS whats bullshit.Yeah I thought that was the whole point of this discussion.The concept of religions.How people interpret their religion's meanings.As Venus pointed out the Koran was not meant too be a hate manifesto.But follower's with different intelligence levels can twist it's meanings too justify their hate or actions in any aspect of their lives.It just seems too me more so than not people use religion as an excuse too be evil, or too help save their sorry asses in hope of redemtion.People should be kind and "Do Unto Others" simply because it's the humane thing too do. Not because they feel they'll be rewarded in any way.Although I'm a firm beleiver in Kharma. But then we come back to the theory. "Two wrongs don't make a right"...

VenusGoddess
11-18-2004, 01:54 PM
Being that I do not have a Qu'ran (Koran) in front of me (still waiting for it to be delivered)...I cannot read what you are speaking of. I will as soon as I get the Qu'ran. However...I must say that there are times when the "words" around such things must be analyzed as well...most things mean one thing if taken by itself...but when you start analyzing the surrounding text/meanings, without changing the words of anything, the original phrase takes on a whole new meaning...

Anywho...I won't know for absolute sure until I get my copy of the Qu'ran...I may go take it and talk to one of my Muslim neighbors... :thinking:


I posted the verse Venus,even the surah number to make it easy to review for everyone who cared to join in the convo????

Great responses from everyone who responded.

VenusGoddess
11-18-2004, 01:57 PM
The Koran has many translations, over 12 in English alone, and these all have different shades of meaning because of the nature of the Arabic language.

The Koran, like the Bible, has been widely interpreted to take on the meaning intended by the reader. Those interpretations are not translations; they are personal meanings for whomever had the motivation to do so.
This is what I meant when I said "re-written"...I should have said "translated"...sorry, had a brain fart. :D


I myself believe both the Koran and the Bible were written by men (or women) in their interpretation of some "divine revelations." I have no idea whre these "divine revelations" came from other than from within themselves. Further many rewritings/translations have been made. For the Muslims they believe that only the original classical Arabic Koran version has authority. Further, like all works intended to be interpreted, grasping any "true meaning" is very elusive and thus controversial.
Exactly...well said.

SonicBones
11-18-2004, 02:17 PM
most things mean one thing if taken by itself...but when you start analyzing the surrounding text/meanings,

Well of course,people always see and hear what they want too hear.This is demonstrated in advertising for movies regularly.
Example:
An original movie review:
Roger Ebert says "Certainly not one of the best movies of the year,a waste of time and money".

Taken out of context: "Roger Ebert says "One of the best movies of the year". This is done all the time in interpretations of the Bible ,Koran etc;)

devilkitty
11-18-2004, 02:42 PM
fuck religon where is the weed.....ahh now that is nice (me hitting bong)

Madcap
11-18-2004, 04:45 PM
How about you try again by rereading my statement. I specifically compared the inquisition to the acts of Zedong and Stalin. You tried to carry it over into warfare as a whole, which totally takes it out of context of my rebuttal to a previous statement.
And my statement stands. Facts are facts.

Djoser
11-18-2004, 09:04 PM
Thanks for the laugh...I suggest you read up on conditions in post-Shah fundamentalist Iran, Taliban controlled Afghanistan, the Iraq-Iran war, and Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia before making such a sweeping statement. A book from a credible author as opposed to internet snippets would do you a much better favor.

Thanks for totally misunderstanding the comparison I was making--again...

I suggest (again) you read my original statement: "The Inquisition was far worse than what we are seeing today in the Islamic world."

And perhaps my attempt to explain to you what I meant by "the Islamic world", namely "the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon", as in...

"...the conditions to be found in the entire area of the world dominated by the Islamic religon are vastly superior to those the people of Spain had to deal with."


I did not refer specifically to Iraq. I did not refer to Iran. I did not refer to Wahabbi sector Saudi Arabia, or Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

I was referring to those nations whose populations are at least 50% Moslem, which would be the State of Bahrain, Al Mamlakah Al Maghribiyah, Republic of Tunisia, Türkiye Cümhuriyeti, Republic of Albania, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Republic of the Sudan, Republic of Yemen, Syrian Arab Republic, Republic of Iraq, Arab Republic of Egypt, Palestinian National Authority, Federal Islamic Republic of the Comoros, Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan, Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Federal Republic of Nigeria, United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Republic of Uzbekistan, Republic of Niger, Republic of Singapore, Islamic Republic of Iran, Sultanate of Oman, Republic of Maldives, Republic of Somaliland, State of Kuwait, Republic of Indonesia, Lebanese Republic, State of Qatar, Federation of Malaysia, Democratic and Popular Republic of Algeria, Somali Republic, Brunei Darussalam, People's Republic of Bangladesh, Republic of Djibouti, Islamic Republic of Mauritania, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Azerbaijan, Republic of Burkina, State of Eritrea, Ethiopia, Republic of the Gambia Republic of Ghana, Republic of Guinea, Republic of Guinea-Bissau, Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, Republic of Cameroon, Kyrgyz Republic, Republic of Liberia, Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Mali, Republic of Mauritius, Republic of Senegal, Republic of Sierra Leone, Republic of Tajikistan, United Republic of Tanzania, Republic of Chad, and the Democratic Arab Republic Sahara.

"The Islamic world", get it?

Last I heard, all the residents of this entire region were not being forcibly converted, without legal rights, under threat of torture, death, or banishment. This is what happened during the Spanish Inquisition.

When you tell me I need to read "a book from a credible author", do you maybe mean one who doesn't judge an entire religious system by 4 countries, or parts thereof, it is practiced in?

If you took a trip to the Middle East, and your Uncle Fred didn't like it either, I'm sorry to hear that--but this quite obviously does not make you an expert on the Islamic religon or its history.

Gynger
11-18-2004, 09:13 PM
I am agnostic- I believe in a creator and I DESPISE organized religion of any kind and have many reasons.

I have been treated better by people who have no religious affliation or are atheists than I have by those who "read the good book"

I was raised Catholic and in church more than I was in school. I don't believe anyone has the right to tell you what is wrong, what you are "suppose" to do, or what you are "suppose" to believe. I believe in morals, guidance and self worth and I believe in laws. I however, do not believe in organized hypocrites who have nothing to do but point fingers and be judgmental of others.

Madcap
11-18-2004, 10:22 PM
I am agnostic- I believe in a creator and I DESPISE organized religion of any kind and have many reasons.
Okay, nitpicking here, but if you believe in a creator you are not agnostic.

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god (lesser)
- ag·nos·ti·cism


If you believe in a creator you are a theist.

Main Entry: the·ism
Pronunciation: 'thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
- the·ist /-ist/ noun or adjective
- the·is·tic /thE-'is-tik/ also the·is·ti·cal /-ti-k&l/ adjective
- the·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

(I made the red parts bold and underlined it, for effect)

IMO, there are two kinds of Agnostics. True blues and shame faced Atheists. True blues are like "I dunno, and i doubt i ever will." Shame faced Atheists that call themselves Agnostic's say "I'm waiting for more proof." As if, out of all those people asking for the same thing were somehow less deserving. ::)

Gyn, a lot of those 'Atheists' you met were probably Agnostic. Myself saying i'm Agnostic is like me saying "I don't know shit about God."

GnBeret
11-18-2004, 11:12 PM
Yea, but it's hard to decide whether the old maxim "if there wasn't a God, we would have had to invent one" is true or, instead, organized religion has been the bane of our existence. In other words, on one hand, the basic principles inherent in almost all organized religions are pretty much what most of us would be teaching our children anyway, and the entire belief structure CAN be a very stabilizing influence on society... on the other hand, even the most cursory review of history clearly reveals the destructive power of religious beliefs taken too far - war after war after war has been fought in the name of, or at the behest of one religion or another.

SonicBones
11-18-2004, 11:23 PM
the basic principles inherent in almost all organized religions are pretty much what most of us would be teaching our children anyway
Iwould like too think so.I don't know why people can not just follow the ten commandments the best to their ability.I'm not religious at all,but have morals.;)

Madcap
11-18-2004, 11:28 PM
Iwould like too think so.I don't know why people can not just follow the ten commandments the best to their ability.I'm not religious at all,but have morals.;) Why? The first four have nothing to do with the real world! They are all spiritual in nature. 'Following the ten commandments' means being Judeo/Christian.

Following the last six makes for a stabler village, but the first four are useless if you don't believe YHWH is the only true god (or, occasionally, that Jesus is his son).

Exodus 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Above is 1-5, below is the useful stuff...

Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

SonicBones
11-19-2004, 12:02 AM
Why? The first four have nothing to do with the real world! They are all spiritual in nature. 'Following the ten commandments' means being Judeo/Christian.
Well your right on that one Madcap;) I was raised catholic and it's still imprinted in me I guess.lol:P

GnBeret
11-19-2004, 12:20 AM
Why? The first four have nothing to do with the real world! They are all spiritual in nature. 'Following the ten commandments' means being Judeo/Christian.
Not exactly - had to do a paper in college on this very subject, and what you'll find if you examine virtually any organized religious belief structure is that the "Ten Commandments," although worded somewhat differently, are virtually universal.

Madcap
11-19-2004, 12:36 AM
Not exactly - had to do a paper in college on this very subject, and what you'll find if you examine virtually any organized religious belief structure is that the "Ten Commandments," although worded somewhat differently, are virtually universal.
Really? So believing that YHWH is the one God is universal? I mean, the first commandment is more of a statement than an order. The Sabbath is universal (oh, is it Saturday or Sunday)? What about graven images?

Sorry but i disagree.

azamber
11-19-2004, 03:28 AM
Isn't "jealous God", in Exodus 20:5 an oxymoron, if God were a perfect being? What's the spin on that one?

Can't call myself religious, but I consider myself agnostic. Guess I can't really even call myself spiritual, not knowing if there's such a thing as a "spirit", either, which brings up the whole question of whether or not there is an afterlife, and that gets pretty disturbing if I think about it too much.

*sigh* Sometimes I wish I were religious and believed everything fed to me, I'd be a lot less internally conflicted...

VenusGoddess
11-19-2004, 08:35 AM
The problem with the bible, Qu'ran, etc. are that they depict God, Yahweh, Allah, whoever, as having HUMAN tendencies. People view God as they view man...

The reason I will never ever believe one word from any "religious source" is because I know in MY HEART what is right for me. I know who my "higher power" is and I am more than comfortable knowing that I am taken care of. My Higher Power, or God, is not any of the descriptions in the Bible, etc. He is a loving God and does not punish...for anything. I am happy with that and I will not go back from that. If others want to live their life believing in sin and worrying about the firey depths of hell and damnation...that's fine...but, for me...there is no such thing.

azamber
11-19-2004, 08:49 AM
I can see your point about the human tendencies, that makes sense, part of why I could never adhere to any one religion, can't trust their books for accuracy.

I used to be where you were at, I felt like there was a "higher power" and I imagined it protecting me, watching over me, etc. But the older I get, the more I wonder why humans give their power up so easily to an unseen, unknown, possibly imaginary being. I think that the human mind's intense survival instincts disallow the comprehension of non-existence.

I have far too many unresolved questions to be able to have "faith" in anything, except that I Am, I mean that's about as basic as you can get. Everything beyond that is essentially uncertain. Bugs the crap outta me that I may never know the answers. I wish I had a blind faith in the afterlife or continuation of conciousness after death. Maybe that's the key to it. The mind is a very powerful tool of creation, could we possibly will ourselves into existing beyond death? See, I drive myself fucking nuts not having any faith in anything. Anyone else drive themselves nuts contemplating this shit?

A_Guy
11-19-2004, 09:52 AM
I have far too many unresolved questions to be able to have "faith" in anything, except that I Am, I mean that's about as basic as you can get. Everything beyond that is essentially uncertain. Bugs the crap outta me that I may never know the answers. I wish I had a blind faith in the afterlife or continuation of conciousness after death. Maybe that's the key to it. The mind is a very powerful tool of creation, could we possibly will ourselves into existing beyond death? See, I drive myself fucking nuts not having any faith in anything. Anyone else drive themselves nuts contemplating this shit?describes me exactly.. :great:

I can not allow myself to believe in something without some scientific evidence, some ....

This lack of belief drives me crazy... sometimes it gets me sick thinking about what could happen after death... is there an afterlife? where do we go? what if when we died, that's all there is... death. and your conciousness and being are erased for all eternity... If this is the case, how did I gain conciousness in this body? why not another body? If it is only neurological, what links caused ME to conciously recognize me? When I was little, I use to toy with the idea that I was the only one with conciousness, and everything around me was simply a world created for me... people were there to challenge me. Obviously, I don't think this anymore, but I had quite an imagination growing up.

I think all these unanswerable questions are what lead people to have faith in the indeterminable... I believe, though, that people and politicians recognize this, and use religion as a tool for control, which people blindly follow.... not me, thank you very much.. and with the years and years of history involved with religion, all have changed, been adapted, been rewritten to the point now where it is the blind leading the blind....

sorry, just my views. People of faith, don't hate me :-\

Djoser
11-19-2004, 09:52 AM
The problem with the bible, Qu'ran, etc. are that they depict God, Yahweh, Allah, whoever, as having HUMAN tendencies. People view God as they view man...

I forget who it was, but someone famous and very wise said that "Man creates God in his own image"...

azamber
11-19-2004, 10:07 AM
PHEW, A_Guy, all except for the neurological question for me, maybe worded differently, and when I was a kid, there were different variations on the perception of reality. Afraid to share my wacky thoughts with the entire internet community tho. Admittedly, The Matrix fucked with my head for a while, until the last movie anyway, what a disappointment!

A_Guy
11-19-2004, 10:24 AM
PHEW, A_Guy, all except for the neurological question for me, maybe worded differently, and when I was a kid, there were different variations on the perception of reality. Afraid to share my wacky thoughts with the entire internet community tho. Admittedly, The Matrix fucked with my head for a while, until the last movie anyway, what a disappointment!ditto on The Matrix... and from the sounds of it, I'm sure your wacky thoughts on par with mine. You can always PM me if you want to share ;)..... or freak me out!! j/k :P

azamber
11-19-2004, 10:26 AM
LMAO, Tempting, but no. Wtf's wrong with us? LOL

A_Guy
11-19-2004, 10:28 AM
it's not us, just everyone else! lol

azamber
11-19-2004, 10:36 AM
Shhhhh!!!!!!! LOL

Djoser
11-19-2004, 11:55 AM
It really does seem as though fear of isolation is one of the root causes for this need to have the attention of a higher being.

Note the inherently selfish motivation for the kind of gods that are created, particularly the Christian God. Here we have a Supreme Being, who has been in existence for several billion years, and who has created a Universe with at least a hundred billion galaxies, each with billions of stars.

This being is not only expected to keep tabs on the ongoing transgressions of every one of the several billion humans on this one isolated planet, and devise fitting punishments--but more importantly, He is expected to pay attention to the fervent prayers of every one of his believers, and decide whether or to what extent to grant the desired results.

Furthermore, He is expected to guide each bullet on every battlefield, directing its course so as to take the life of one fervent believer, for reasons of his own--or spare that of an Infidel, perhaps, so that they may inflict further suffering upon His loyal worshippers, so that they may--possibly--attain enlightenment through contemplation of their suffering.

Right...

VenusGoddess
11-19-2004, 12:51 PM
To A_Guy and AzAmber:

In response to the "give your power away to something else". I believe that there is a big difference between people who believe that they deserve something and pray for years on end waiting for that something to come through. I, on the other hand, know that there is something much greater than myself out there. I don't give my power away, but realize that I can tap into that greater power. I don't pray in the sense that "Please, may I have this, please?" But, more in a prayer of thanksgiving for all that I have. I know what I want and I know how to manifest everything that I want.

Ehhhh...I don't know if I explained it properly...but, do you at least get the gist of it?

Also, if you need to see something to believe it, then you will never see it as you won't believe it anyways. Somethings in life are meant to be felt and honored...somethings in life are meant to be looked upon with love...and other things in life are meant to be known by your "true" self...knowing that something IS without ever having to SEE it. ;)

A_Guy
11-19-2004, 01:40 PM
To A_Guy and AzAmber:

In response to the "give your power away to something else". I believe that there is a big difference between people who believe that they deserve something and pray for years on end waiting for that something to come through. I, on the other hand, know that there is something much greater than myself out there. I don't give my power away, but realize that I can tap into that greater power. I don't pray in the sense that "Please, may I have this, please?" But, more in a prayer of thanksgiving for all that I have. I know what I want and I know how to manifest everything that I want.

Ehhhh...I don't know if I explained it properly...but, do you at least get the gist of it?
it made sense. Got it :great:.... and, although I don't necessarily believe in following a particular religion, I do believe in the power of prayer. I've done it myself, and, if anything, it helps to calm me, focus my energy, and remain positive and optimitic...... Although, I do every once awhile ask for something, such as "OHhhhh God!!! Please let the Browns win this week!!!" :P



Also, if you need to see something to believe it, then you will never see it as you won't believe it anyways. Somethings in life are meant to be felt and honored...somethings in life are meant to be looked upon with love...and other things in life are meant to be known by your "true" self...knowing that something IS without ever having to SEE it. ;)
wow... well said :)

I don't need to see something, I need to have evidence of its existence.... I tend to have a bias against so called "word of mouth" evidence. For example, I believe in the existence of life on other planets due to evidence of "earth-like", extrasolar planets... the earth is teaming with life born from a virtual cesspool, so I believe it's possible elsewhere. I'm not entirely convinced in the existence of an all powerful being as we have defined him/her though... other than the fact that there is this complicated, diverse, yet organized system of life and existence, I have not gained any evidence nor experienced the personal epiphany of faith. I don't believe that our so-called "transgressions" will land us in hell... I can't believe it, and more than likely never will... however, from experience, I know the importance of integrity, companionship, and the golden rule... it works, and we can all live a fulfilling life if we follow those principles. I don't need a booming all powerful being telling me to be good to thy neighbor ;)

SonicBones
11-19-2004, 01:49 PM
Like theses lyrics:

"Everybody is in a dream
Of what they want and who they need
To feel alright
To be alive
To wipe out words that they despise
From a thunderbrain
That's quick to pain
And only once to live again
When that setup gets in the way
The dreamin' brain
Will make a play
To wipe it all outta space
Press record then erase
'Cuz There's something here
They gotta face
Everybody in this place
It's the same for everyone
They gotta figure out something
They gotta figure out themselves
They gotta figure own their own" ;)

VenusGoddess
11-20-2004, 09:43 AM
it made sense. Got it :great:.... and, although I don't necessarily believe in following a particular religion, I do believe in the power of prayer. I've done it myself, and, if anything, it helps to calm me, focus my energy, and remain positive and optimitic...... Although, I do every once awhile ask for something, such as "OHhhhh God!!! Please let the Browns win this week!!!" :P

Ummmm...just wanted to clarify that I DO NOT follow any religion. The way I live my life is by intuition. I guess that the closest thing I believe in, is the Indian Way. There's no place of worship, except within your heart. You don't "answer to anybody", and yet your actions/decisions affect everybody. People who are "truly" sucessful (in life...not money/fame/etc) are the ones who live for themselves and yet, live for the world at the same time. They're not necessarily Christians, Catholics, Wiccan, Unitarian, Jewish, Hindu, etc. They just realize that there is something much more than they are out there. They don't "give up" their power, but recognize it and respect it (I call it the Universal Laws). So, whereas I believe in the Great Creator, a Higher Power...I also believe in absolute free will without fear of damnation, I believe in creating your life, I believe in Universal Laws, and I believe in Collective Conscious. :D




I don't need to see something, I need to have evidence of its existence....

So....if you do not need to see something, how would someone "prove" something to you? All that is really left is word of mouth...or physical evidence. Either way, you would need to either believe the words...or believe that what you are seeing is real...just wondering. :D


I tend to have a bias against so called "word of mouth" evidence. For example, I believe in the existence of life on other planets due to evidence of "earth-like", extrasolar planets... the earth is teaming with life born from a virtual cesspool, so I believe it's possible elsewhere. I'm not entirely convinced in the existence of an all powerful being as we have defined him/her though... other than the fact that there is this complicated, diverse, yet organized system of life and existence, I have not gained any evidence nor experienced the personal epiphany of faith. I don't believe that our so-called "transgressions" will land us in hell... I can't believe it, and more than likely never will... however, from experience, I know the importance of integrity, companionship, and the golden rule... it works, and we can all live a fulfilling life if we follow those principles.

I understand. It's why I do not believe anything that the bible says. This is a book that has been around for 2000 years, translated, edited, re-edited, and based upon someone's take on what someone else said. :O There are many things that go on within this universe and this solar system. However, I have found that when I am not open to new ways of thinking or accepting new ideas...I have a hard time believing anything. Does that mean that you have to believe everything that is put in front of you? No, the most definite way to "filter" information is listening to your intuitive voice. It's never steered me wrong and it doesn't just work in physical situations. It works when you are trying to figure out the "mysteries of the world" as well. The biggest problem with our society, I believe, is that people have forgotten how to believe and know only how to worship.


I don't need a booming all powerful being telling me to be good to thy neighbor ;)

And, I do not believe that there is a God up there who gives you freedom of choice...and then tells you how to live your life. I do not believe that there is a God who judges anyone for anything they do. I believe that there is a God who looks at a murderer in the same way he looks upon a mother. They both had the freedom to choose what it was that they wanted to experience in life...and God gave them the means in which to do so; without judgement, without fear of damnation...does that mean that I still don't get angry when I hear about someone being murdered? No...but, you know, I'm still only human. :D But, at least to me, God is God. He is everything and everyone...the right, the left, the good, the bad, the top, the bottom. *Sigh* I don't think I can really explain what I truly believe just yet. I KNOW I believe something...but, I don't completely understand it myself, yet. :D

Oh, well. :D

Jay Zeno
11-20-2004, 10:24 AM
There's logical reasons to believe in God, or not.

1. The universe has order. You can believe that something directed the order, or that order is necessary from the beginning of the universe.
2. The impossibility of physical infinity. You can make an argument for this either way.
3. The evolution of abstraction from physicality. In a purely physical universe, how can one establish knowledge or beliefs outside of a physical plane? Seems like an oxymoron - but you can also point and say it happens - therefore, it's by definition possible.
4. Paranormal events. If a miracle happens, you can believe it: a) is the result of a higher being; b) didn't really happen as reported; c) is physical phenomenon as yet unexplained.

There's others. I'm just saying that you can make logical cases for these. I guess it depends on your own brand of logic, or your biases, or both.

mccodu
11-20-2004, 11:56 AM
I'm an Atheist, I swear to God!


Just kidding.

Tigerlilly
11-21-2004, 12:45 PM
I think faith is one of the most personal things about life and thats why my biggest complaint is about those who try to force their own religion onto others.

I think there are so many different religions in the world because there are so many different people/cultures. No one religious practice is going to work for or appeal to ALL people.

The many different religions are all part of a greater plan -imo- to help humans maintain, create and deal with life/the world/the universe.

I also don't think we are supposed to know for sure the if or what about a higher being.

Where is the faith if there is no mystery?

Just some rambling thoughts on the subject :)