View Full Version : walking atm's, fembots and objectification
LilSweetVixen
02-10-2005, 12:51 PM
obviously, that sort of behavior isn't tolerated or encouraged outside of a sc and can lead to a civil suit.
No, that's what we believe but that's not how it usually pans out.
People objectify people in life. They might as well get something out of it.
mr_punk
02-12-2005, 10:20 AM
And what I was talking about was really the way guys try to "bestow" their approval of certain posts - they are just so comfortable with feeling superior to us that they don't even notice it anymore.i don't think their attitude necessarily emanates from a sense of superiority. although, that may very well be true in some cases. however, i think the impression they're giving you is probably unintentional on their part. offending you isn't their goal nor are they seeking to bestow their approval. in fact, they would probably piss in their pants at the mere thought of offending you. quite the opposite, they're actually seeking your favor. they see themselves as being "helpful" and "supportive" and hoping you return the favor in some small way. i've said as much in a previous thread many months ago, but a lot of the guys are basically looking to get some nude pics and to "get to know the ladies" (ie: stripper interaction).
i suppose, if someone works really hard at being your volunteer life coach on a messageboard. it may seem supportive to some (ie: i find strippers to be very interesting. they're so intelligent. i don't objectify strippers. i'm different than most customers because i treat them like real people, blah, blah, blah). however, i wouldn't be surprised if it seems condesending and irritating to others. of course, this doesn't apply to all of them. there are a few that don't turn slavering fanboys at the first sight of a stripper.
still, i'm surprised at your reaction. since, you're a rabid feminist and all. i would have thought that you would be drunk with power over the idea of a man offering to be your toady in return for so little. hell, you don't even have to drop your drawers. well, except in a picture. an occasional comment of encouragement, approval, or admiration is all you need and he'll be your lackey for life. may i suggest the phrase,"you're so freaking hot". it seems to work well on them.
I just figure they are used to dancers fawning over them and agreeing with them (you know - the way we do professionally. Well, not me. But most of us) and they are not used to dancers (well, probably women of any occupation) not doing that.women of any occupation? isn't that stretching it a bit? oy vey, i can see you take rabid feminist duties seriously. in any case, you may have a point. i'm sure you read these threads:
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45404
http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45407
it's kinda sad, really. oops..i tell a lie. actually, it's pretty funny reading some of the guys discombobulated reactions and their "but i'm different than the guys you're talking about" justifications. it's sort of like watching stripper bitch out a PL for some imaginary slight. so, the PL runs to the ATM to get more cash to calm her down and make-up with her. it's the mother of all crash-n-burn stories and i'm on my second bag of popcorn.
still, i wouldn't get too comfortable up on my high horse if i were a stripper. you do realize that it cuts both ways, don't you? off the top of my head, i can think of several strippers (including the most recent glaring example in this thread) and one designated male peon whose main goal seemed to be nothing, but to come down here and start all kinds of crap. however, i didn't mind because i'm more than happy to oblige them. i just find it ironic that some of the same strippers who are complaing about the behavior of the guys upstairs are the same people who came down here and displayed the same type of behavior.
I said that I had a customer tell me what to do in a manner that was not offensive to me.you mean he didn't say, "hey stripper! here's a dollar. now, bend over and spread yer cheeks. har..har..har!". why i never would have guessed. man, this guy has a serious problem. you just can't go around talking to strippers in a non-offensive manner. it's just not right.
And really! Just, really! THIS right here is why girls won't admit when they are wrong! Cause you just bring it back up to discredit them later on!hey, i didn't say you were wrong. i said you were whimsical or flaky, take your pick. in any case, i see that quite a bit in strippers. don't worry, it's not a big deal.
mr_punk
02-12-2005, 10:59 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of quid pro quo. You keep my anonymity; I'll keep yours.a quid pro quo? so, in exchange for her keeping my anonymity. i should in turn should keep her anonymity? is that what you're getting at? i think the answer lies in your previous statement:
the difficulty in obtaining customer information for even an informal distribution because most everything's anonymous and in cash, and perhaps some sappy concern for the personal privacy of the customer instead of thinking of such information purely in pragmatic terms as your side has.
you're right. there is a lot of anonymity in a sc. so, how can she keep my anonymity. if she knows nothing in the first place? who's she going to tell? if i'm in a sc looking for a casual encounter. a name (and it doesn't have to be real) and some cash is all you need. occasionally, i'll run into a stripper who's a little too nosy, but most of the time they don't seem concern themselves with such matters.
And I'm still reveling in an aha moment here because I'm beginning to catch on to the difference that exists in the focus on information - individual as opposed to general.actually, it's both. the name of a club is just as useful as the name of a dancer. the focus on individual dancers only serves as an attempt to make the process more efficient. however, you don't always have the luxury of the inside track on a dancer. however, you might have the name of a club. so, a good mileage hound has be able to sniff out the mileage potential of an unknown dancer.
Shee-sus. Steak, orifices. Poor Nina. She may be confused that those terms are subconcious expressions of how you actually view us, rather than a concious use of metaphor in an amusing way.er..uh..yeah, i wonder where she would have gotten such a silly notion. (mr_punk thinks to himself: whew! i glad i didn't mention my idea about tattooing barcodes on the forehead of strippers which contains information about her level of mileage. the barcodes can then be read by scanners built into the PDA of customers.)
Given the number of guys who said they made it with me in high school versus the number of guys who actually did (now mind you, college was a different story), I'm uncertain as to how one would discern the signal from the noise in the channel.
field research. after awhile, you begin to notice who has the good stuff. in any case, i want to make something clear. it really doesn't matter how reliable your source of information. YMMV is still in play. at the end of the day, the customer still has to do most of the heavy lifting and he has to be able to close the deal himself. the information is not a guarantee. there are no guarantees in a sc. so, it's better to think of the information as a lead, a tip or a clue rather than something more definitive.
evan_essence
02-13-2005, 10:53 AM
you're right. there is a lot of anonymity in a sc. so, how can she keep my anonymity. if she knows nothing in the first place? who's she going to tell? Sure, there's no way to get that information now, but I'm talking about customer data compilation of the future. If customers are already employing this type of data exchange because it's lucrative to their quest, then it's time for dancers to think of how to capitalize on a similar sharing of information about customers. It's being done at many other businesses, so clubs and dancers need to catch up. Retinal scan identification might be ideal for this purpose. You wouldn't have to know someone's name or issue them an ID. You'd merely assign an arbitrary ID number to their baby blues. "Customer #157634J is sitting at Location 16A. Past History: Cheap tipper, rude, asks for $5 BJs." Any girl dying for a custy like that could run right over.
actually, it's both. the name of a club is just as useful as the name of a dancer. the focus on individual dancers only serves as an attempt to make the process more efficient. I do get that. And my ephiphany is that what's good for the gander may be even better for the goose. Time to start thinking of ways to play that way on our side, but again, I realize the resources aren't there at the moment. Thing is, it's not being considering because most of us aren't thinking outside the box, or as I said earlier, maybe we're hesitant to breech the customer's privacy because we haven't viewed this as a statistical, nothing personal type of marketing activity. There's nothing personal about not approaching a customer whose past behavior is deemed to have lowered a dancer's monetary potential; it's just business, similar to how your quest for a cheap night of HG means nothing emotionally.
Perhaps the first small step in gathering information for target marketing would be to encourage use of credit cards rather than dampen the idea. Perhaps the long-term benefits of the customer habits being tracked could be potentially more lucrative for clubs and dancers than the short-term advantages of no credit card fees and the stealthiness of cash. There's a strategy by some companies to dump the pursuit of less profitable customers and market themselves toward groups with better cost-benefit ratios, so it seems logical that it could be advantageous in stripper marketing, too.
er..uh..yeah, i wonder where she would have gotten such a silly notion. (mr_punk thinks to himself: whew! i glad i didn't mention my idea about tattooing barcodes on the forehead of strippers which contains information about her level of mileage. the barcodes can then be read by scanners built into the PDA of customers.)See, there ya go. Barcodes would be good to provide information on customers, too. Your profile information, for example, could inform a stripper that she can easily push your curmudgeon button by crying misogynist. But I like my idea of retinal scan better, especially for those of us who aren't enamored of tats.
field research. after awhile, you begin to notice who has the good stuff. in any case, i want to make something clear. it really doesn't matter how reliable your source of information. YMMV is still in play. Strikes me now that at least some of the value of trading the information for junkies is pure posturing and/or entertainment.
-Ev
SportsWriter2
02-13-2005, 12:19 PM
Ev, I think info gathering is doomed on both sides. It's all about hiding the good info and misleading others.
Guys used to write to me offering to trade info on how to get to Miss A if I would give them similar info on Miss M. Everyone had the book on A, but I was apparently the only one who understood M. But why would I want to trade? I just said she was good girl and I wasn't getting anything. :)
Likewise, a dancer told her "friends" about her trip to champagne with me. Most of what she "shared" never happened, but it scared away a dancer I liked, at least until she had the courage to ask me about it. :-\
mr_punk
02-13-2005, 08:24 PM
Sure, there's no way to get that information now, but I'm talking about customer data compilation of the future.okay, so exactly how far are you looking into the future?
I do get that. And my ephiphany is that what's good for the gander may be even better for the goose.how very egalitarian of you, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a feasible or practical idea.
If customers are already employing this type of data exchange because it's lucrative to their quest, then it's time for dancers to think of how to capitalize on a similar sharing of information about customers.well, let's not get too carried away by the extrapolation monster when it comes to our side. like i said, you don't always have the luxury of the inside track. at best, this type of information exchange is informal and it varies in it's degree of organization. there is no supeduper top secret national database on strippers hidden in the lower bowels of the pentagon and i don't see how you could implement such a thing.
Time to start thinking of ways to play that way on our side, but again, I realize the resources aren't there at the moment.have you ever considered that perhaps it's counterproductive? have you ever thought that anonymity is an advantage rather than a disadvantage for your industry? most importantly, how are you going to extract that information.
Thing is, it's not being considering because most of us aren't thinking outside the box, or as I said earlier, maybe we're hesitant to breech the customer's privacy because we haven't viewed this as a statistical, nothing personal type of marketing activity.see, this statement makes me wonder exactly how well you know customer base. it's one thing for a mainstream business to ask for personal information for say a video rental card. it's quite another for a sc to ask for personal information so they can send you a flyer in the mail informing you of 2 for 1 tuesdays. seriously, a lot of customers don't want anyone (ie: SO) to know about their sc jaunts and sc apprehend this concern and if it came to light that sc are collecting such information, it might be bad for their bottom line. they'll just go to the clubs that aren't so nosy.
Perhaps the first small step in gathering information for target marketing would be to encourage use of credit cards rather than dampen the idea <snip>.all of this sounds great in theory, but you do realize that you're talking about an SOB.
But I like my idea of retinal scan better, especially for those of us who aren't enamored of tats. hey, i worked very hard on that idea. i didn't say they were permanent tatoos or even visible to the naked eye. anyway, i thought it was a lot better that stapling electronic chips to their ears.
Strikes me now that at least some of the value of trading the information for junkies is pure posturing and/or entertainment. what do you want a guarantee? anyway, wouldn't most MB be described in that fashion in some part? for example, i found your post to be wildly speculative (almost borderline hyperbole) and yet as entertaining as any TR. still, i wouldn't say your post completely useless. in reality, most MB have some degree of entertainment value. it would be pretty boring if it didn't.
evan_essence
02-18-2005, 06:47 AM
there is no supeduper top secret national database on strippers hidden in the lower bowels of the pentagon and i don't see how you could implement such a thing.I thought it was hidden in NORAD. Or was that GONAD? One of those subterranean treasures.
see, this statement makes me wonder exactly how well you know customer base. it's one thing for a mainstream business to ask for personal information for say a video rental card. it's quite another for a sc to ask for personal information so they can send you a flyer in the mail informing you of 2 for 1 tuesdays. seriously, a lot of customers don't want anyone (ie: SO) to know about their sc jaunts and sc apprehend this concern and if it came to light that sc are collecting such information, it might be bad for their bottom line. they'll just go to the clubs that aren't so nosy.Okay, thank you for an outline of the wrong way to do it. Now the right way to do it would be to issue some sort of special privileges status with substantive benefits that customers would actually want to register for, and to communicate via e-mail or password-protected website private message box, which would not automatically be subjected to prying eyes like snail mail. The goal is to delineate you and your habits from all other customers for marketing purposes, not to record your actual identity. The gathering and use of such data is successful in other businesses, either because the reward and privacy assurances satisfy the customer or else because there is no alternative when all businesses in a particular field are doing it.
all of this sounds great in theory, but you do realize that you're talking about an SOB.To paraphrase Alfred E. Neuman, "What me take wild flights of fancy?" Besides, I'm used to talking about and down to SOBs.
for example, i found your post to be wildly speculative (almost borderline hyperbole) and yet as entertaining as any TR. still, i wouldn't say your post completely useless. Yeow, does your mother know you play with buzzsaws? Those remarks would have cut me into pieces if I hadn't constructed a straw woman to send down to meet the blade.
-Ev
SportsWriter2
02-18-2005, 08:55 AM
Me, I'd give dancers radio collars that look like rhinestone chokers. :P
evan_essence
02-19-2005, 04:23 AM
Me, I'd give dancers radio collars that look like rhinestone chokers. :PShould I expect this gift in my mail?
http://www.theglamorouswoman.com/JJ18KE.html
Or this?
http://www.sirenssecrets.com/rhchgabe.html
Oh, don't tell me, let me guess which one's the hit.
-Ev
Moneywise
02-19-2005, 10:51 AM
Oh, don't tell me, let me guess which one's the hit.
-Ev
The one with more rhinestones.
Katrine
02-19-2005, 03:06 PM
Or this?
http://www.sirenssecrets.com/rhchgabe.html
-Ev
This girl at Lilith's club in Jacksonville wears this type of jewelry. It is HOT HOT HOT!!!!
mr_punk
02-19-2005, 05:26 PM
I thought it was hidden in NORAD. Or was that GONAD? One of those subterranean treasures.GONAD? now you're just being silly. i want you to stop it. anyway, there no such thing as a nefarious organization named S.H.I.T (Stripper Heuristic Information Technologies, affectionately aka stripper shit) located in a concrete reenforced bunker one mile beneath the polar cap.
Now the right way to do it would be to issue some sort of special privileges status with substantive benefits that customers would actually want to register for, and to communicate via e-mail or password-protected website private message box, which would not automatically be subjected to prying eyes like snail mail.a titty bar discount program. well, that would give a whole new meaning to the phrase "what in your wallet".
The goal is to delineate you and your habits from all other customers for marketing purposes, not to record your actual identity. The gathering and use of such data is successful in other businesses, either because the reward and privacy assurances satisfy the customer or else because there is no alternative when all businesses in a particular field are doing it.oh, i never doubted your assertion about the marketing purposes of other businesses. i just doubt your assertion that most customers view his local titty bar in the same light as Costo even with respect to anonymously tracking his buying habits. i think you had it right the first time:
Similarly, I'm not suggesting data on customers that would be used to.. oh.. say.. phone their wives if they don't ante up some hush money.. (which I wouldn't condone unless the guy really pissed me off) but rather as a way to judge whether I want to even approach the guy in the club.
no matter how anonymously and nonintrusive the sc promises the process will be. it's really a question of the trustworthiness of sc and the customer's desire to protect his own anonymity. now, such a thing may never happen, but it's is a concern. you may think the concern is unfounded and the possibility of anyone using the information to link back to the customer is tenuous and that may very well be true. i'm just pointing out that customers like their anonymity and getting a $5 discount on their LD may not be that much of an incentive when compared to preserving their anonymity.
for example, a lot of customers don't like using ATM or credit cards in a sc. sure, they say they want to budget their money or to avoid transaction fees and those are legitimate reasons. still, another reason that's not often voiced and it may be due to the fact that it's pretty obvious. customers are reluctant to use them because it creates a paper trail. cash gives one the ability to say, "stripclubs? what are stripclubs?" and once he leaves the building. it's as if he was never there in the first place. cash is the best way to preserve one's anonymity in a sc and that's probably more important than any discount.
evan_essence
02-21-2005, 05:44 PM
This girl at Lilith's club in Jacksonville wears this type of jewelry. It is HOT HOT HOT!!!!Oh, I'm totally sold on the look. But I'm thinking, with customers already being so grabby, do I really need a pull chain on?
Imagined conversation -
Custy: "Hey, little lady, how 'bout I give you a tow?"
Me: "Yank on that and the only toe you're gonna get is my foot up your trailer hitch."
-Ev
evan_essence
02-21-2005, 06:33 PM
GONAD? now you're just being silly. i want you to stop it.What have you become? The Silly Police? You know how much you hate it when strippers try to turn this forum into a police state, so don't turn into one of us.
anyway, there no such thing as a nefarious organization named S.H.I.T (Stripper Heuristic Information Technologies, affectionately aka stripper shit) located in a concrete reenforced bunker one mile beneath the polar cap.Now you're just trying to impress me with adjectives I have to look up. Trouble is, heuristic implies the process of learning from your trial and error. Is that really true in this case? Aren't strippers hopelessly doomed to repeating the same relationship mistakes over and over? And customers hopelessly doomed to rubbing our shit all over themselves?
titty bar discount program.That's classy. That phrase begs for a ™ next to it.
i'm just pointing out that customers like their anonymity and getting a $5 discount on their LD may not be that much of an incentive when compared to preserving their anonymity.A $5 discount on a LD? Oh, no, I understand that won't do it. I said substantive. I was thinking of $5 BJs for premium members. Or "buy a menage a deux in the VIP, get a menage a trois at no extra charge."
cash is the best way to preserve one's anonymity in a sc and that's probably more important than any discount.How about this? "Register for our premium anonymity plan."
-Ev
Nicolina
02-22-2005, 12:50 AM
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, and I only have time for a quick reply but I will say this:
I agree with Mr. Punk that objectification is not necessarily a bad thing in SCs. I actually preferred to be objectified at work, especially once I started working in tabledance/lapdance hustle clubs, because it was simply more lucrative, and frankly more comfortable for me. I found that if I got real with a customer, he'd be less likely to see me as some unattainable fantasy--less likely to buy dances and more likely to try to date me. Which was not the point. I wanted a guy to size me up, like my looks, and take to the VIP room to let me do my thing without a lot of chitchat. That way, the guy can think whatever he likes about me, insert my physical self into his favorite fantasy and I don't ruin it for him by telling him that really I'm a total nerd, a science geek, bla bla bla. Y'know?
An analogy (maybe not very good) is that when I would go to get my nails done by the talented Vietnamese nail artists, I always preferred the ones who didn't try to carry on a conversation with me....they just spoke to their coworkers in Vietnamese, smiled at me and gave me a nice hand & foot massage. I guess because they were giving me a service that was sort of personal (especially the pedicure, which I thought must be a little gross for them sometimes), I just wanted them to perform the service and not pretend that they really noticed me as anything other than a customer....(I guess in a way I was also objectified in that setting.)
Maybe what I'm getting at is that in certain service jobs, it is more comfortable for all involved if EVERYONE is somewhat objectified. Dancers certainly objectify their customers as well; we certainly don't think of you all as unique human beings whose personalities and problems we really care about or can even remember from week to week (no offense, I'm just being honest, and maybe it'll make anyone with a conscious--not Mr. Punk, of course--feel a little less guilty about the whole 'objectification' thing.) There are always exceptions but you know what I mean.
That said, I have to say that there is customer behavior that crosses the line from being harmless objectification to being downright rude, and at times it can rise to the level of something that feels like degradation. When this happens, I walk away. As Jenny pointed out, though, it's all about context and expectations. If I were working in an S&M house and getting paid as a submissive, you could humiliate me all you want and I'd prolly get off on it. HOWEVER, if you do it in a SC, I'm walking away from you.
It's hard to say what constitutes this boundary-crossing behavior, though: I generally can't stand to be told to turn around and bend over (it's unimaginative and just plain LAME--I'm gonna do that in a minute anyway, ya fool!). On the other hand, I once had a good-looking guy tell me 'good girl' while I did a dance for him, low in his throat like he was talking to an animal, and frankly it got me all hot'n'bothered. So you never know!
Let's put it this way: from what I've read so far, SportsWriter2 would get a helluvalot more mileage out of me than Mr. Punk would! ;)
mr_punk
02-25-2005, 09:27 PM
Maybe what I'm getting at is that in certain service jobs, it is more comfortable for all involved if EVERYONE is somewhat objectified.fat chance of that happening. if this site (ie: SW and SCJ) is any indication of how people feel about objectification. for example, there are a large number of threads that address this issue either directly or indirectly and they are pretty easy to recognize. usually, it involves a stripper or a customer bitching and moaning about being objectified in a sc. most of the time, the whiner is just looking for a group hug, a pat on the back and a "there, there, you poor thing. everything is going to be okay. that mean person was totally wrong". the funny thing is that the whiner is engaging in the same behavior that he/she finds so offensive. anyway, the common thread seems to be that everyone wants to objectify, but they become uncomfortable or offended when they become objectified in return.
no offense, I'm just being honest, and maybe it'll make anyone with a conscious--not Mr. Punk, of course--feel a little less guilty about the whole 'objectification' thing.ouch! now, that smarts and was that really necessary? your harsh tone makes me reluctant to share with you.
As Jenny pointed out, though, it's all about context and expectations.jenny? and which jenny would that be? it's hard to keep up with her personalities. are you talking about "rabid feminist jenny" who thinks that asking a stripper to bend over is part of a larger conspiracy created by the elite, capitalist and supremacist patriarchy in order to oppress women or is it "action figure jenny" who bent over so fast at a customer's request that she suffered from a concussion and whiplash when she hit her head on her kneecap. canadians...what can i tell you.
As Jenny pointed out, though, it's all about context and expectations. If I were working in an S&M house and getting paid as a submissive, you could humiliate me all you want and I'd prolly get off on it. HOWEVER, if you do it in a SC, I'm walking away from you.really? so, if a customer not only asks a stripper to bend over, but let's say he slaps and bites (a playful bite) her ass as well. is the customer humiliating and degrading the stripper?
It's hard to say what constitutes this boundary-crossing behavior.
in the case above? not really.
I generally can't stand to be told to turn around and bend over (it's unimaginative and just plain LAME--I'm gonna do that in a minute anyway, yafool!). so, despite your general dislike for being told what to do. you'll still cooperate under certain conditions? very good. anyway, it's not as if what a stripper thinks is even a consideration. there's no need. i already know what she wants. besides, this is a sc and not a civics class. so, what she thinks really isn't open to debate or discussion. i'm only interested in her compliance and in return for her cooperation. i pay her. if she continues to indulge me then i continue to pay her. OTOH, if she doesn't comply. i see no need to give her one thin dime. the decision of whether or not she cooperates is entirely in her hands. i give every stripper the opportunity to succeed or hang herself by her own hand. in the end, it makes not a whit of difference to me.
Let's put it this way: from what I've read so far, SportsWriter2 would get a helluvalot more mileage out of me than Mr. Punk would!promises, promises..the next thing you'll tell me is that each dance is better than the last.
evan_essence
02-26-2005, 05:32 AM
i'm only interested in her compliance and in return for her cooperation. i pay her. if she continues to indulge me then i continue to pay her. You're so easy. Care to share some of your other commands? Help me out here, so I can practice my record-breaking compliance to be ready should the need arise.
i give every stripper the opportunity to succeed or hang herself by her own hand. in the end, it makes not a whit of difference to me..Oh, don't flatter yourself. Only the naive newbie strippers are going to hang themselves after they find they're unable to capture your continued business. The rest will pop a couple Prozac and deal.
-Ev
mr_punk
02-26-2005, 11:48 AM
You're so easy. Care to share some of your other commands? Help me out here, so I can practice my record-breaking compliance to be ready should the need arise.she's either going to do it or not. it's not a conspiracy to against strippers. in fact, it's no different than than what jenny stated earlier:
I had a very bossy customer a few days ago, and I think I kind of liked him. I mean, if nothing else it completely relieved me of the need to ... well, think about anything at all. No guess work. You definitely know he enjoyed it. And he was pretty polite about the whole thing.obviously, what she normally does isn't working for him. so, he began to direct her for his own gratification. she went along with it and it worked out well for them both. OTOH, if she didn't go along with it and he left. can you really blame the guy? i don't think so.
Oh, don't flatter yourself. Only the naive newbie strippers are going to hang themselves after they find they're unable to capture your continued business. The rest will pop a couple Prozac and deal.how am i flattering myself? she's perfectly free to move on in search of a sap or she can stay and make money off me. like i said, that decision isn't in my hands. it's her choice, but i have my choices as well. so, i don't worry about her decision. it's not a concern of mine. i'm just looking to do business. it's nothing personal, but there are other strippers and other opportunities available. i perfectly willing to move on to a stripper who can do the job. for me, it's just a numbers game and i don't get caught up in it. i expect a certain percentage of strippers to succeed or fail. YMMV. i'm sure you don't go into work expecting that every customer is going to buy a dance or tip you on stage or maybe you do.
Nicolina
02-26-2005, 05:07 PM
mr punk,
I thought I was backing you up on the whole objectification thing! No need to bite my head off. And I was joking about the conscience....didn't you yourself say that you were on the list for a transplant? Forgive me if I got that wrong. Actually, I really enjoy your posts. I have a feeling I might not love you as a customer, but I appreciate your honesty in the forums.
Unfortunately I really don't have time for an adequate reply right now, but I'll get to it ASAP. For now I just want to say that what I meant by the comment "I hate being told to bend over...I'm gonna do it in a minute anyway..." was that there's really no NEED to tell me to do that; I'm going to spend half the dance bent over whether I'm asked or not, because my JOB as a dancer is to show you myself from as many angles as possible in that three minute time period. And Sporty is wise in saying that if you say to a dancer, "I love it when you bend over," she'll get the message and spend more of the dance showing you her ass. OTOH, if you COMMAND her to bend over, she'll get the feeling that your intent is not to admire her (even as an object, which as I said, doesn't bother me in the least) but to make her feel commanded. And some dancers just don't like that feeling at work.
That's the best I can do at the moment....but I will answer more when I get a chance.
evan_essence
02-26-2005, 08:38 PM
she's either going to do it or not. it's not a conspiracy to against strippers.I'll rephrase my remarks since my usual flippancy apparently communicated an accusatory tone when I meant it to be flippancy for flippancy's sake. In other words, at the heart of that question, I really wanted to know what you feel a desire to direct.
obviously, what she normally does isn't working for him. so, he began to direct her for his own gratification. she went along with it and it worked out well for them both. OTOH, if she didn't go along with it and he left. can you really blame the guy? i don't think so. .In your case, is your gratification coming from improving what you're seeing or the act of commanding me? Directing me seems more likely to be motivated by a desire to command or have power. "Turn around and let me see your ass now!" A desire to improve what you're seeing could be communicated as a request or desire. "Please show me more of your lovely ass" or "I'd really love to see more of your lovely ass."
I assumed your gratification came from the act of issuing commands and being obeyed. That's why I asked what some of your orders might be so I could prepare. (Not really prepare but understand more about it.)
how am i flattering myself?
Oops, another flippant moment misfires. In my response, I meant hanging themselves to be interpreted literally, as if I mistakenly thought you expected strippers to become upset enough to actually hang themselves.
-Ev
evan_essence
02-26-2005, 09:04 PM
... what I meant by the comment "I hate being told to bend over...I'm gonna do it in a minute anyway..." was that there's really no NEED to tell me to do that; I'm going to spend half the dance bent over whether I'm asked or not, because my JOB as a dancer is to show you myself from as many angles as possible in that three minute time period. And Sporty is wise in saying that if you say to a dancer, "I love it when you bend over," she'll get the message and spend more of the dance showing you her ass. OTOH, if you COMMAND her to bend over, she'll get the feeling that your intent is not to admire her (even as an object, which as I said, doesn't bother me in the least) but to make her feel commanded. And some dancers just don't like that feeling at work. Wow, this is getting complex. Not to argue, but to clarify: So you're saying objectification is less offensive if the customer is admiring or pretending to admire the dancer he's objectifying? However, if he wants to exercise power or pretend to exercise power over the dancer he's objectifying, it's more offensive? Therefore, if the latter is part of his fantasy, he's less likely to have it fulfilled.
-Ev
Nicolina
02-27-2005, 02:34 AM
evan,
I'm saying I don't object to being objectified at work; in fact I rather prefer it to NOT being objectified.
I mean, really. Let's call a spade a spade. Do you want the men at work to see you as the person you truly are? Do you want them to penetrate the performer's veneer (no pun intended!) and really see your inner self? Of course you don't. You know as well as I that your average Joe Customer couldn't appreciate the depth of your intelligence or your ironic wit. Sometimes you run into a guy who can, and it's fun to banter with him...but let's face it, he probably won't be the guy who buys three champagne rooms in a row.
My point in the post you quoted was just to let mr punk know that he could catch more bees with honey...a little kindness/respect/politeness/flattery etc goes a long way in the SC.
Like I said, I don't mind being objectified, but there is a difference between being objectified (i.e. seen as an "object": the stripper girl) and being purposefully humiliated. If I sense that a customer wants to objectify me (that is, he doesn't want to know anything about my personal life or my thoughts or my inner feelings), I have no problem with that; I feel it is really just a way for him to maintain a perfectly respectful distance. On the other hand, if I sense that a customer wants to humiliate ME---not my stripper persona but my actual human self, I'll get mad. Case in point: if a customer approached me saying "Nicolina, I think you're very lovely and I respect you as a person, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be a secret submissive. Do you mind if I dominate you a little during dances?" I'd be likely to say, "Why thank you very much; why don't we play a little?" I'd let THAT guy order me around because we'd already made an agreement beforehand; he's shown that he respects me as a human being by asking my permission to play a little game, and I have consented. So now, during the table dances with this guy, I'm being objectified as "the submissive stripper." It makes the guy all horny and it keeps my actual self SAFE from the humiliation I might experience if I HADN'T given my consent to be treated in this way. Do you see how objectification is preferable in this case??? I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but let me keep trying:
I think its about respect. If I sense that the customer is being respectful, I don't really care if he's admiring me or objectifying me or playing a little sexual game of domination. Whatever. If I feel that we are on the same page and he has some basic level of respect for me as a human being or at least for my boundaries as a sex worker, I will have no problems with that customer. If, on the other hand, I sense that a customer is being disrespectful of my boundaries, or of my basic humanity, then I will avoid that customer like the plague, no matter how much he claims to admire me or how much money he may be willing to dish out.
Does that make any sense??
mr_punk
02-27-2005, 03:02 PM
In your case, is your gratification coming from improving what you're seeing or the act of commanding me? Directing me seems more likely to be motivated by a desire to command or have power. "Turn around and let me see your ass now!" A desire to improve what you're seeing could be communicated as a request or desire. "Please show me more of your lovely ass" or "I'd really love to see more of your lovely ass."
I assumed your gratification came from the act of issuing commands and being obeyed. That's why I asked what some of your orders might be so I could prepare. (Not really prepare but understand more about it.)it's a case of the former. the latter really doesn't play a part or at least not on a conscious level. if i ask a stripper to bend over. i don't mentally get off on the act of commanding a stripper. i like to use my primitive hindbrain in a sc. i do it because i think she has a nice ass. i like the look of a woman's ass in that position. i have to slap it or bite it among other things. it's purely visual and carnal and nothing more. so, if my mind or attention begins to wander during a dance. if i'm not sporting lumber. she's doing something wrong and i have to correct it. otherwise, why am i paying her?
while i'm sure every stripper thinks she gives a good LD. frankly, that's not always the case. strippers are like workers doing a repetitive task. after awhile, they tend to go into what i call auto-dance mode. the problem is that what worked on the previous nine customers might not be very effective on me. the problem is that what a stripper may think is a turn-on really does nothing for me at all. for example, talking during a LD is a real boner killer for me. perhaps her other customers don't mind or perhaps they tolerated it like customers are prone to do. so, if i have to tell her to be quiet and focus more on her perfomance in order to make the dance more enjoyable for me. so be it.
sometimes, i don't have to tell a stripper what to do during a dance. some of them can gauge my desires fairly quickly and respond. however, some of them may lack this ability or they may not be good as other dancers for a variety of reasons. it doesn't necessarily mean they're bad dancers or looking to rip me off. sometimes, they just don't know.
mr_punk
02-27-2005, 04:13 PM
mr punk, I thought I was backing you up on the whole objectification thing! No need to bite my head off.yes, i realize you backed me up, but i'm not biting your head off. i would never bite a stripper's head off. they don't look very tasty. besides, there's all that hair, shampoo, make-up, etc. OTOH, i'll bite a stripper on the ass. now, that's some good eatin.
And I was joking about the conscience....didn't you yourself say that you were on the list for a transplant? Forgive me if I got that wrong.why? you didn't do anything wrong. there's was no offense taken on my part and no need to apologise on your part. i was joking as well.
I'm going to spend half the dance bent over whether I'm asked or not, because my JOB as a dancer is to show you myself from as many angles as possible in that three minute time period.i think i'm in lust. however, you do realize that every stripper simply may not be as diligent as yourself.
OTOH, if you COMMAND her to bend over, she'll get the feeling that your intent is not to admire her (even as an object, which as I said, doesn't bother me in the least) but to make her feel commanded. And some dancers just don't like that feeling at work.well, i'm not advocating the idea of saying something like, "yo stripper! bend over and grab yer ankles!". i'm aware that strippers are no different than customers in the sense that egos are just as fragile when it comes to objectified. most of them need a little help in order to believe that it's something other than objectifaction going on. so, if a stripper needs a little hand holding in order to bend over. i'll play along. if she needs me act as if she's doing me a big favor by bending over and spreading her cheeks. i'll play along. if she needs to believe that i "respect" in some sense. i'll play along. i don't care about the methods used so much as the results. so, i'll play along as long as she does it in the end.
So you're saying objectification is less offensive if the customer is admiring or pretending to admire the dancer he's objectifying? However, if he wants to exercise power or pretend to exercise power over the dancer he's objectifying, it's more offensive? Therefore, if the latter is part of his fantasy, he's less likely to have it fulfilled.i would agree with that statement. i said as much earlier.
My point in the post you quoted was just to let mr punk know that he could catch more bees with honey...a little kindness/respect/politeness/flattery etc goes a long way in the SC.i would agree with this statement also. i said as much earlier.
i think you ladies are bolstering my earlier point about everyone wanting to objectify, but dislike being objectified in return or at least being objectified in a completely obvious manner.
I think its about respect. If I sense that the customer is being respectful, I don't really care if he's admiring me or objectifying me or playing a little sexual game of domination. Whatever. If I feel that we are on the same page and he has some basic level of respect for me as a human being or at least for my boundaries as a sex worker, I will have no problems with that customer. If, on the other hand, I sense that a customer is being disrespectful of my boundaries, or of my basic humanity, then I will avoid that customer like the plague, no matter how much he claims to admire me or how much money he may be willing to dish out.i think that when people start dragging issues like respect into a sc. it just complicates matters even further. for example, do you really think he actually respects you or is he merely being courteous? i think there is a difference. speaking from a customer's POV. i understand that a lot of guys get their egos stroked when strippers act as if she "likes" him or says that he's "different" than the other walking ATMs. however, i wouldn't confuse that with actual attraction much less respect as many PL are prone to do.
conversely, strippers want customers to act as if they "respect" them and are "appreciative" because they are taking off their clothes. frankly, i don't respect nor am i disrespectful of strippers nor do i go looking for respect from strippers. she just a woman i'm paying to sit on my balls among other things. oh, i can be courteous enough. i'll be mindful of her boundaries nor will i go out of my way to be discourteous unless it's warranted. in reality, i am no more or less respectful or appreciative towards her than i am towards the cashier behind the counter at Costo. having said that, if she needs for me to pretend otherwise in order for her to perform job. i'll play along as long as i get what i want. still, if i were a dancer. i wouldn't necessarily come to the conclusion that the customer truly respects me.
Katrine
02-27-2005, 05:51 PM
I know better than to think that my customers "respect" me. That doesn't mean that courtesy has to fly out the window along with respect. I just hope they are as courteous to me as anyone they encounter in the service industry, like a waitress, pharmacy tech, receptionist, etc..... Some people are assholes to all service workers, not just to strippers. Just like its hard for me to turn the hustler off in situations, its virtually impossible for them to turn asshole off at all.
yoda57us
02-27-2005, 06:39 PM
It's no surprise that, often, the same guys that piss-off dancers also piss-off Bartenders and waitresses in SCs. Maybe respect is too strong a word but I certainly wouldn't expect a customer to treat a dancer with any less courtesy than they would treat any other person they come into contact with during the course of a day. I think it's important not to confuse objectification with dehumaization...or just being an asshole
Jenny
02-27-2005, 10:29 PM
Okay - there is "respect" and there is "Respect". I don't think anyone is demanding or particularly wants "Respect" in a stripclub - I really "Respect" and like you as a person and woman....". But "respect" is just extending basic humanity that you extend to every other human in your day.
And, again, thinking a woman is pretty, attractive, sexy and being sexually attracted to her is not "objectifying" her. You "objectify" her when those things render her essentially non-human - like a little, fuckable animal. So courtesy is innately tied to respect, insofar as many men - I daresay many here (does anyone remember saying that some girl who was pushy needed to smacked?) - do not see dancers as human beings ENTITLED to courtesy (hence my example of the rude guy that set off the me vrs punk shoot out). Objectification is PRECISELY dehumanization - that is what separates making women "sex objects" from just thinking that they are sexy. And despite what men and some women believe - that whole "women really want to be sex objects" thing is NOT true.
evan_essence
02-28-2005, 02:45 PM
if i ask a stripper to bend over. i don't mentally get off on the act of commanding a stripper. i like to use my primitive hindbrain in a sc. i do it because i think she has a nice ass. i like the look of a woman's ass in that position. i have to slap it or bite it among other things. Can I have a humor* quotient check on Aisle 12? Namely, when you say bite... yeow:'( ... are you being jocular or literal there? Because I'm thinking if you're being literal, that might qualify as being somewhat discourteous and slightly dehumanizing, at least without a prior signed written release. In addition, would the open-end (sorry, I couldn't find a synonym) phrase "among other things" include, say, a finger in the..uh.. open end in question?:O
-Ev
* "Humour" outside the U.S.A.
Katrine
02-28-2005, 05:23 PM
But they don't respect us, and they don't want to be courteous to us Evan. They stay in line because they want to get mileage and not be kicked out. We're bitches for doing our job and sluts if we actually have multiple sexual partners. We can't win.
Its a dehumanizing job on both sides. I actually still see my customers as humans and treat them very well. Most women in this industry get so burned that they can also no longer extend courtesy/respect to the men, they are now just ATMs. It burns both ways.
I don't feel empowered as a stripper at all. It just makes me feel like trash with cash. ;)
Moneywise
02-28-2005, 07:51 PM
But they don't respect us, and they don't want to be courteous to us Evan. They stay in line because they want to get mileage and not be kicked out. We're bitches for doing our job and sluts if we actually have multiple sexual partners. We can't win.
I must be the exception. I respect all women regardless of race, creed, sexual preference, occupation, or otherwise. I got so lost in actually being myself when I first began clubbing that I often found myself as the one taken advantage of by a woman with clear goals in sight (good ol Ms. L). She went out and got what was rightfully hers. The best lessons are often learned on the fly. I appreciate every lesson she taught me. Thanks to her I am a much smarter, more informed, respectful, goal oriented custy. }:D
Nicolina
03-01-2005, 02:44 AM
Maybe respect is too strong a word but I certainly wouldn't expect a customer to treat a dancer with any less courtesy than they would treat any other person they come into contact with during the course of a day. I think it's important not to confuse objectification with dehumanization...or just being an asshole
Thank you, Yoda! That's exactly what I was trying to say....and I really regret using the word respect....I know what I meant, but I think I was misunderstood.
Perhaps courtesy is the better word.
But I do think that respect for a dancer's boundaries is important...if nothing else, to avoid getting tossed out of the club.
No ass-biting, mr punk! :P
Nicolina
03-01-2005, 03:15 AM
Okay - there is "respect" and there is "Respect". I don't think anyone is demanding or particularly wants "Respect" in a stripclub - I really "Respect" and like you as a person and woman....". But "respect" is just extending basic humanity that you extend to every other human in your day.
Thank, you Jenny. That is what I was talking about....the little-r respect.
However, I disagree about the objectification=dehumanization thing. It is probably a matter of semantics, but I think "objectification" is more about assigning someone to a type or a station without really considering their inner thoughts and feelings, without considering them as a complex person but as a "strip club junkie" or a "Costco worker" or whatever it may be. Sort of like a "flat character" vs. a "round character" in fiction....It doesn't mean that you want to degrade/humiliate/abuse the costco worker or the Vietnamese nail artist or the gas station attendant, just because you don't see them as a fully rounded "character" in your life.
As I keep saying (but mr punk keeps ignoring) I PREFER to be objectified at work because I actually, in some way, see it as a sign of respect. I get a little wary when a customer insists on wanting to know "the real me". I feel that can be intrusive.
This is not to say that I put on a big act at work. I never did that. I'm incapable of being anybody but my geeky little self once you really start talking to me... Therefore, when it comes to making money, it's better for me to allow myself to be somewhat objectified.
One final thing: a lot of this "respect" stuff just has to do with the gut. Sometimes you just get a bad gut feeling about a customer; they just rub you the wrong way. It could be because you're burnt out and having a bad day and less tolerant than usual, or it could be because the guy is having a bad day and he thinks you looked at him funny, or it could be that he's a notorious serial killer....When I get one of these bad feelings, I tend to steer clear, no matter how much money the guy's got.
OTOH, some customers get away with a lot more than others because they charm you for some reason; you have a rapport and you understand that even when he says something sort of obnoxious he doesn't really mean anything bad by it (mr punk, are you feeling implicated?)
Actually mr punk, I thought your last post was quite....respectful!!
:O
evan_essence
03-01-2005, 11:34 AM
if this site (ie: SW and SCJ) is any indication of how people feel about objectification. for example, there are a large number of threads that address this issue either directly or indirectly and they are pretty easy to recognize. usually, it involves a stripper or a customer bitching and moaning about being objectified in a sc. most of the time, the whiner is just looking for a group hug, a pat on the back and a "there, there, you poor thing. everything is going to be okay. that mean person was totally wrong". the funny thing is that the whiner is engaging in the same behavior that he/she finds so offensive. anyway, the common thread seems to be that everyone wants to objectify, but they become uncomfortable or offended when they become objectified in return.
Upon further reflection, I think this characterization of stripper complaints is incorrect, and actually, disingenuous. In most of the cases that I've read (admittedly a small but I assume representative sampling), the stripper isn't complaining about the larger issue of being objectified, she's complaining about a specific act of disrespect by some customer. She was ready to treat him with courtesy in the role-playing endeavor being undertaken, but he didn't return the favor. In some instances, his bad manners may have been unintended strip club gaffes, and in others, deliberate attempts to denigrate her. (I won't opine about the customer complaints because I haven't been reading enough to get a feel for them.)
The characterization of how the pink community handles support of its own members is also quite derisive. There is nothing wrong with seeking understanding of and validation of one's feelings about an experience. (Blue site equivalent: "Attaboy, nice trip report.") The fact that you don't find that a preferable function of the pink forum doesn't make it contempible. Viewed with less cynicism, many of the complaints could be characterized as "blowing off steam" to ease the stress of the participants, with the end result benefiting the customers. You're also discounting the critical reaction to some of the "whining." The ratio of support may be far higher, but counterpoints aren't totally absent.
-Ev
Jenny
03-01-2005, 12:56 PM
^^^
oh, oh! Applause, applause.
One of the minor irritants of these boards is how simply being nice is characterized as "kissing ass" or whatnot - how being a straightshooter is somehow equivalent to being a dick if you are a guy and just plain stupid if you are a girl, and that being a dick is okay because it is honest and not-being-a-dick is actually the degrading thing, and if women expect the guys to not be dicks it's because they are so used to guys kissing up to them in stripclubs they can't take "normal" interaction - it occurs to me that perhaps it is the guys who are used to women in strip clubs kissing up, and are therefore incapable of normal interaction, but you know, I'm just a drunk, power-happy stripper who is relying on the power of pussy to rule the world so.... I'll let you know how that is going for me. So, far my plan of taking over the world one lapdance at a time is going very, very slowly.
evan_essence
03-02-2005, 08:23 AM
I appreciate every lesson she taught me. Thanks to her I am a much smarter, more informed, respectful, goal oriented custy. }:DThis isn't directed at you, MW, just general thoughts triggered by your comment. I, and I assume many others, don't generally have a problem with customers who are goal oriented, as long as the goal isn't, oh, say, persuading me to dinner outside the club and axe murdering me. And I'm not accusing anyone here of that, at least not without gathering more evidence. I expect a goal-oriented customer to pursue the best experience possible in exchange for what he feels is reasonable compensation. I prefer that the customer set that goal within club standards. When a customer rudely insists or acts upon a perceived entitlement to have an experience beyond club standards, that creates a problem for me.
-Ev
Moneywise
03-02-2005, 07:52 PM
This isn't directed at you, MW, just general thoughts triggered by your comment. I, and I assume many others, don't generally have a problem with customers who are goal oriented, as long as the goal isn't, oh, say, persuading me to dinner outside the club and axe murdering me. And I'm not accusing anyone here of that, at least not without gathering more evidence. I expect a goal-oriented customer to pursue the best experience possible in exchange for what he feels is reasonable compensation. I prefer that the customer set that goal within club standards. When a customer rudely insists or acts upon a perceived entitlement to have an experience beyond club standards, that creates a problem for me.
-Ev
No offense taken EE. My goal is always to have a good time. Period. Rudely is a strong word. Some customers simply find that a little nicety goes a long way in the SC.
mr_punk
03-03-2005, 08:52 PM
Okay - there is "respect" and there is "Respect". I don't think anyone is demanding or particularly wants "Respect" in a stripclub - I really "Respect" and like you as a person and woman....". But "respect" is just extending basic humanity that you extend to every other human in your day.well, aren't we talking about the same thing? isn't that the same level of "respect" (ie: courtesy) that one would extend to the woman behind the counter at Costo?
And, again, thinking a woman is pretty, attractive, sexy and being sexually attracted to her is not "objectifying" her. You "objectify" her when those things render her essentially non-human - like a little, fuckable animal."thinking a stripper is pretty, attractive, sexy and being sexually attracted to her". why that statement sounds so sweet and quaint. you make it sound as if i'm having thoughts of splitting a milkshake with a stripper in the ice cream parlor after the high school prom. speaking for myself, my thoughts about a stripper usually run along the lines of getting a LD. so, i can grab a handful of ass and a mouthful of tit (feel free to switch the order) and it all runs uphill (or downhill depending on your POV) from there. anyway, why is it a problem reducing someone into collection of T & A or a giant ATM card with arms and legs. didn't you once say about your customers:
And I don't HATE men. I think they're fine as long as they are giving me money, and then going away.
now, i don't know if you were joking or not, but i'm sure you don't hate your customers. i'm sure you treat them just fine in the club. however, don't you also think of them (or at least some of them) as walking ATMs as well. not that there's anything wrong with the whole idea, IMO.
I daresay many here (snip) - do not see dancers as human beings ENTITLED to courtesy (hence my example of the rude guy that set off the me vrs punk shoot out).
what shootout? oh, you mean the one where you argued with me over this very point although i agreed with you countless of times? BTW, aren't you playing that victimization card a wee bit too much? i can't believe you're still going on about this point. one more time, no one has argued that strippers aren't entitled to courtesy.
Objectification is PRECISELY dehumanization - that is what separates making women "sex objects" from just thinking that they are sexy. And despite what men and some women believe - that whole "women really want to be sex objects" thing is NOT true.
well, if you're talking about women outside of a sc. you may have a point. OTOH, strippers do their best to be sex objects inside a sc. so, if her goal is to be a sex object and a customer objectifies her and at the same time extends her courtesy. why is that a problem?
anyway, on this site strippers have made it clear countless of times that their goal is to extract all the money they can from a customer and many have stated that they are not interested in customers in any capacity beyond the money. in fact, they trade tips on how to squeeze every last dollar out of a customer (ie: the walking ATMs). no surprise there, but that is objectification. now, i don't have a problem with it and it seems that you have no problem with the notion as well, except when the shoe is on the other foot.
does anyone remember saying that some girl who was pushy needed to smacked?are you referring to this comment?
Did she really say "I'm telling you to buy a lady a drink."?
Man, bitches need to get smacked for saying things like that.
LOL, yes she did actually say that, and yes she did need a good smacking.if so, judging from the context of the thread. they do have a point. she wasn't being pushy. she was being a total biatch.
However, I disagree about the objectification=dehumanization thing. It is probably a matter of semantics, but I think "objectification" is more about assigning someone to a type or a station without really considering their inner thoughts and feelings, without considering them as a complex person but as a "strip club junkie" or a "Costco worker" or whatever it may be. Sort of like a "flat character" vs. a "round character" in fiction....It doesn't mean that you want to degrade/humiliate/abuse the costco worker or the Vietnamese nail artist or the gas station attendant, just because you don't see them as a fully rounded "character" in your life.i'll go along with that notion. strippers (or customers for that matter) are like "flat characters". she's a just a person i recently met and gave $20 to sit on my balls. i can see that she has great tits and a nice ass and beyond wanting to buy a LD. why in the world would i consider the inner thoughts and feelings of a woman who's standing behind a persona and a stage name. of course, that doesn't mean i'm excused from being courteous, but the truth of the matter is that i don't know her and she sure doesn't know me.
As I keep saying (but mr punk keeps ignoring) I PREFER to be objectified at work because I actually, in some way, see it as a sign of respect.i didn't ingore it. at the time, i just didn't catch your meaning of respect.
mr_punk
03-04-2005, 09:12 AM
I think this characterization of stripper complaints is incorrect, and actually, disingenuous.actually, it was more of a characterization of both stripper and customer complaints. however, i won't split hairs because the undelying issue is the same for both parties.
In most of the cases that I've read (admittedly a small but I assume representative sampling), the stripper isn't complaining about the larger issue of being objectified, she's complaining about a specific act of disrespect by some customer.
how many times do i have to tell you ladies that no one has argued that strippers aren't entitled to courtesy. if a customer called a stripper "a fat fucking cow" and she wanted to vent about it. she can knock yourself out. i'm referring specifically to the offended reactions from strippers or customers when they find themselves being objectified inside of a sc. anything beyond that wasn't the intent of my post.
In some instances, his bad manners may have been unintended strip club gaffes, and in others, deliberate attempts to denigrate her. (I won't opine about the customer complaints because I haven't been reading enough to get a feel for them.)
again, i'm not talking about deliberate attempts to denigrate someone. however, your statement, "In some instances, his bad manners may have been unintended strip club gaffes" is intriguing. for example, let's say a customer makes a comment or obsevation about a stripper's physical appearance. while his comment or observation may be accurately described as tactless or clusmy. it is by no means intended to denigrate her. nonetheless, that statement is totally appropriate within a sc. in fact, he might think he's being helpful or kind. however, the stripper may be sensitive about the area the customer is referring and/or she may be outraged over the idea that he would presume to examine and judge her appearance like a stockyard animal.
my response to the situation? get over it. all customers judge strippers in various degrees on their physical appearance. i evaluate strippers like racehorses. hell, even strippers judge other strippers on their physical appearance. believe me, no customer can be as vicious with their comments on the physical appearance of a stripper as another stripper. in any case, a lot of customers make comments to the stripper on a her physical appearance. some of the comments are pure honeyed flattery. OTOH, some of the comments simply lack finesse or polish. which is understandable if you are giving a LD to a socially-inept PL and your business seems to attact it's fair share.
The characterization of how the pink community handles support of its own members is also quite derisive.why, thank you. it's always nice to get a little constructive criticism. i was thinking about adding a couple of eye-rolling and sneering emoticons to my post, but what do you think? a little too over the top?
There is nothing wrong with seeking understanding of and validation of one's feelings about an experience. (Blue site equivalent: "Attaboy, nice trip report.")The fact that you don't find that a preferable function of the pink forum doesn't make it contempible. Viewed with less cynicism, many of the complaints could be characterized as "blowing off steam" to ease the stress of the participants, with the end result benefiting the customers. You're also discounting the critical reaction to some of the "whining." The ratio of support may be far higher, but counterpoints aren't totally absent.i suppose, that i might sympathize if there was an actual imbalance or disparity when it comes to this issue, but this isn't a one-sided affair. you're not really being oppressed or dehumanized by the capitalist, supremacist patriarchy. in reality, power in a sc has always been a two way street. yeah, you can get me hard, but the money is in my pocket. frankly, if you're going to objectify someone else in a sc. you damn well be prepared to deal with being objectified in return. so, you're going to have to excuse me from the group hug when it comes to the commiserating with someone who reacts badly after being objectified when they are doing the same in return.
I got so lost in actually being myself when I first began clubbing that I often found myself as the one taken advantage of by a woman with clear goals in sight (good ol Ms. L). She went out and got what was rightfully hers. The best lessons are often learned on the fly. I appreciate every lesson she taught me. Thanks to her I am a much smarter, more informed, respectful, goal oriented custy.you see, that's what i'm talking about. after MW got played by a stripper. unlike a lot of PL who just can't stop pissing and moaning about how "the biatch set me up! she manipulated and lied to me! how could she do this to me. i'm such a good person". actually, MW did say something along those lines;). my point is that he got over it, learned from his mistakes, changed his mindset and now he's learning to play The Game and becoming a more savvy customer. BTW, i don't really hand out "attaboy's". well, except as you can see to MW, but that's because i'm still trying to corrupt him fully over to the darksidehttp://web.gay.hr/smilies/comino-4547025.gif. he isn't quite there yet, but he's getting closer and closer everyday. very soon his soul will be mine}:D.
When a customer rudely insists or acts upon a perceived entitlement to have an experience beyond club standards, that creates a problem for me.well, no one condoning that type of behavior. however, it does becomes a problem when a customer is annoyingly insistent. having said that, i don't see the problem of a customer asking a stripper for a phone number, date, or even a blowjob. it's a simple, but not unexpected question. futhermore, it's not as if strippers don't agree to those requests or take advantage of a customer by using his desire to hustle him. ultimately, the decision in entirely her hands and it would be an understatement to say that to do otherwise would make her just a tad bit defensive. it's like my daddy:devil: always told me,"free will, son...it's a bitch".
evan_essence
03-07-2005, 04:49 AM
how many times do i have to tell you ladies that no one has argued that strippers aren't entitled to courtesy. if a customer called a stripper "a fat fucking cow" and she wanted to vent about it. she can knock yourself out. i'm referring specifically to the offended reactions from strippers or customers when they find themselves being objectified inside of a sc. anything beyond that wasn't the intent of my post. Well, good. Then you'll have no problem when I characterize the vast majority of complaints on the pink site as being in the former category instead of the latter. I doubt the word objectification even comes up much, except from those saying they don't mind being objectified.
... however, the stripper may be sensitive about the area the customer is referring and/or she may be outraged over the idea that he would presume to examine and judge her appearance like a stockyard animal. my response to the situation? get over it. Regardless of whether your example is tantamount to calling a stripper "a fat fucking cow" or not, let me make an important observation about SW stripper complaints of all kinds. If I get no other point across in this post than this one, let this be the one. That's one of the functions of strippers complaining to strippers - a process by which to get over it. Some of you guys apparently think there has to be a mandatory followup admonishment saying, "No, naughty stripper, bad!" for there to be absolution, but that's not necessarily the case. If a stripper didn't get over it, she'd either quit or go back to work and blow the customer's head painfully off. (Double entendre intended, but a detached piece of customer either way.)
in reality, power in a sc has always been a two way street. yeah, you can get me hard, but the money is in my pocket. frankly, if you're going to objectify someone else in a sc. you damn well be prepared to deal with being objectified in return. so, you're going to have to excuse me from the group hug when it comes to the commiserating with someone who reacts badly after being objectified when they are doing the same in return.Again, I don't recall reading a significant number of posts on the pink site using the O word. Well, not this O word anyway. I suspect you're more obsessed with the subject than we are. We'll apparently have to disagree if you don't believe that most of their complaints are not about objectification; they're about rudeness. You've agreed that deliberate denigration is worthy of complaining about. You disagree with the contention that a thoughtless, but not entirely intentional, act of rudeness is worthy of complaining about. So we don't disagree about much, just how to categorize the complaints and whether they're worthwhile.
you see, that's what i'm talking about. after MW got played by a stripper. unlike a lot of PL who just can't stop pissing and moaning about how "the biatch set me up! she manipulated and lied to me! how could she do this to me. i'm such a good person". actually, MW did say something along those lines;). my point is that he got over it, learned from his mistakes, changed his mindset and now he's learning to play The Game and becoming a more savvy customer.So, basically, your definition of learning from one's mistakes is to buy into your concept of how to play The Game, or else a person will be brow beaten with attacks of pathetic loserhood here. Ladies and gennelmen, this PL once dropped thousands foolishly without gettin' any, now he seeks blowjobs, sexual disease and soliciting prostitution arrest at a reasonable price. If that's The Game, are you sure Punk's Life doesn't mean trading one PL for another?
i don't see the problem of a customer asking a stripper for a phone number, date, or even a blowjob. it's a simple, but not unexpected question.
Yeah, along those lines, I'm surprised I haven't been asked for a date and then to rob a bank or handle medical waste. I mean, they're all pretty much in the same category and none are rude. How would it be rude to ask a customer service person to perform an illegal act and risk an STD? Gosh, a stripper ought to enjoy being asked to take the chance of being arrested as a sexual offender and branded for life, so just assume that's a fair question. I hear they even put the names up in bold on the web now and everyone's clamoring for a look. So, no, no reason for it to be unexpected.
-Ev
Moneywise
03-07-2005, 05:49 AM
So, basically, your definition of learning from one's mistakes is to buy into your concept of how to play The Game, or else a person will be brow beaten with attacks of pathetic loserhood here. Ladies and gennelmen, this PL once dropped thousands foolishly without gettin' a good ROI, now he enjoys blowjobs wherever he can get em (like most men do), toying with the premise of sexual disease (considering buying stock in saran wrap) and soliciting select lovely ladies of the SC to take it OTC (no prostitution here maam sorry) at a reasonable price. If that's The Game, are you sure Punk's Life doesn't mean trading one PL for another?
There. Fixed it for ya. ;) I hope you don't mind me having a little fun w/ your post. It was lacking a bit of accuracy where it pertained to me. mr_p and quite a few others set me straight long ago when I was bright eyed, bushy tailed, and dispensing twenties faster than that ATM in your club with the 10% surcharge. I'm just a bit more informed and have so much more fun now than ever before. Anytime I can travel outside of my "SC comfort zone" to another city, find the gold mine, and have more fun than I have in my own town strip clubbing is all good. ;D
yoda57us
03-07-2005, 05:59 AM
let me make an important observation about SW stripper complaints of all kinds. If I get no other point across in this post than this one, let this be the one. That's one of the functions of strippers complaining to strippers - a process by which to get over it.
-Ev
Men internalize everything. If we confide in each other about the kinds of things that women do we are supposedly weak, gay, or getting in touch with our "feminine side". I'm no different when it comes to this affliction but I do understand the need for women in general and dancers in particular to vent.
Men who backslap and high-five their way through the blue site will never accept that what goes on over at the pink site is necessary and valid. The minute we give in and admit that dancers need to talk about the stuff that happens to them at work, those of us with a conscience are forced to accept the possibility that we may be causing at last some of this angst.
I don't have a problem with the goal-driven SCJ who keeps his eye on the prize and prefers not to think about this sort of stuff. A dancer chooses her occupation and accepts all that goes with it. However, I think it’s important to know the difference between looking for sympathy and looking for a sympathetic ear. Belittling the need for women to commiserate about this stuff, be it in the dressing room, on the ride home, or on a website that exists for this reason, is really just putting your head in the sand.
mr_punk
03-07-2005, 07:47 PM
Well, good. Then you'll have no problem when I characterize the vast majority of complaints on the pink site as being in the former category instead of the latter. I doubt the word objectification even comes up much, except from those saying they don't mind being objectified.be my guest. the act manifest itself in ways both subtle and gross. people don't always don't always recognize it when it happens. so, when a dancer asks a customer, "wanna dance". he doesn't usually think to himself, "ah ha, i caught her trying to objectify me. i'm going to turn her down."
That's one of the functions of strippers complaining to strippers - a process by which to get over it.the key phrase being "a process by which to get over it.". that's the problem with some of them because unlike MW, they never get over it and move on. they just go on and on like a broken record. it's sort of like listening to a female version of Romantic Lover. keep in mind, many of these people aren't wide-eyed rookies. they are people who have been around sc long enough to know better.
Again, I don't recall reading a significant number of posts on the pink site using the O word. Well, not this O word anyway.no, i didn't recall any "and i was really upset about his objectifaction of my ass" statements either.
I suspect you're more obsessed with the subject than we are.
ahhh..the classy ad hominem. it an oldie, but a goodie. of course, you're right. you see, i thought the title of this thread was "walking atm's, fembots and objectification". it seems i was under the misguided impression that the discussion within the thread would contain posts about the subject of...ummm...oh, i don't know...objectification. however, thanks to you. i can see that i was off-topic. so, what would you like to discuss now. how about bathroom fixtures?
So, basically, your definition of learning from one's mistakes is to buy into your concept of how to play The Game, or else a person will be brow beaten with attacks of pathetic loserhood here.actually, no. i pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject in another thread. at the time, i expressed as little sympathy for MW as i do for any customer or stripper when it comes to this issue. in any case, why are you asking me? why don't you ask MW. he can answer that question better than i and judging from his response it looks like he's pretty happy with the choices he made since that time.
Yeah, along those lines, I'm surprised I haven't been asked for a date and then to rob a bank or handle medical waste. I mean, they're all pretty much in the same category and none are rude.would you prefer that i sugar coat it for you? look, a stripper works in a place where she does her best to become a sex object in order to extract money from men. so, she whispers sweet nothings in his ear, takes off her clothes, and grinds on his dick (splooging optional). in response, a customer asks her a simple question. ohhh...big surprise. can you really say the question is unexpected in a sc?
How would it be rude to ask a customer service person to perform an illegal act and risk an STD? Gosh, a stripper ought to enjoy being asked to take the chance of being arrested as a sexual offender and branded for life, so just assume that's a fair question. I hear they even put the names up in bold on the web now and everyone's clamoring for a look. So, no, no reason for it to be unexpected.well, no one is talking about being rude. i thought i made that clear. like i said, it is a problem if the guy becomes demanding or if he can't take "no" for an answer. however, if he's polite in asking his question. it seems rather extreme to take insult. sometimes, a customer just doesn't know if a stripper is a player and asking is the only way to find out. in any case, a stripper that is not interested can just say "No" and she doesn't have to worry about taking chances of any sort. you know, i've read quite a few comments from strippers about how society is close-minded about the ideal of sex work. i find that very ironic because more than a few strippers would fit into that group as well. in reality, we're all deviants in the eyes of larger society.
evan_essence
03-09-2005, 03:16 AM
There. Fixed it for ya. ;) I hope you don't mind me having a little fun w/ your post. Hey, don't do that again. It won't quote the altered quote. I had to resort to the antiquated act of copy and paste. :(
now he enjoys blowjobs wherever he can get em (like most men do), toying with the premise of sexual disease (considering buying stock in saran wrap) and soliciting select lovely ladies of the SC to take it OTC (no prostitution here maam sorry) at a reasonable price.Oops sorry, I didn't know we were going to be defining prostitution by using the Bill Clinton version of reality. I get it. If I'm on the right wavelength now, I think I hear you saying that you did not have sexual relations for money with that woman, the stripper, who administered the BJ in the club.
I, however, originally said "soliciting prostitution arrest," which implies the police's definition, not Clinton's. But let me rephrase my description given this confusion. Let's eliminate OTC altogether. In place of sex or prostitution or blowjob in the club, let's substitute "An act in the club that you and/or the stripper would get arrested for performing if the cops witnessed it." How's that? Takes the value judgment about what is or isn't sex or prostitution right out of it in favor of more universal legal criteria.
And I'm not upset that you altered my quote to describe your specific situation. I see plainly now that my use of "this PL" logically referred back to you. I had intended to mean any PL who followed the company line given here because I didn't know whether or not you had done so completely or in moderation; I was merely assuming that you had received the standard advice. I didn't feel inclined to look up any of your TR examples to check because I'm generally on a philosophical rant, not a personal indictment rant.
-Ev
evan_essence
03-09-2005, 05:01 AM
be my guest. the act manifest itself in ways both subtle and gross. people don't always don't always recognize it when it happens. so, when a dancer asks a customer, "wanna dance". he doesn't usually think to himself, "ah ha, i caught her trying to objectify me. i'm going to turn her down." And thus, he wouldn't be complaining about what he doesn't recognize. But let's drop it. You say to-may-toe, I say to-mah-toe.
the key phrase being "a process by which to get over it.". that's the problem with some of them because unlike MW, they never get over it and move on. they just go on and on like a broken record. it's sort of like listening to a female version of Romantic Lover. keep in mind, many of these people aren't wide-eyed rookies. they are people who have been around sc long enough to know better.No, the key phrase was "If a stripper didn't get over it, she'd either quit or go back to work and blow the customer's head painfully off." Going to work and continuing to interact with customers is a daily act of getting over it. Again, we're not seeing eye to eye, so let's either close the case or get a room.
ahhh..the classy ad hominem. it an oldie, but a goodie. Ahhh? Was that the sound of you... well, I don't want to know. Anyway, when it comes to character assasination, class is a hit woman's best friend.
of course, you're right. you see, i thought the title of this thread was "walking atm's, fembots and objectification". it seems i was under the misguided impression that the discussion within the thread would contain posts about the subject of...ummm...oh, i don't know...objectification. however, thanks to you. i can see that i was off-topic. so, what would you like to discuss now. how about bathroom fixtures?Oh, no, my bad. I didn't know the title was intended to limit the discussion to a conclusion that complaints about objectification are running rampant on the pink site. Crap, why didn't you say you didn't want anyone to disagree with you, and that disagreeing about the extent of the complaints about objectification would be seen as taking the thread off topic? I'm just a girl; you have to make things plainer for me. Perhaps I should indeed limit my focus to bathroom fixtures. Can you help me find the appropriate area to start such a thread?
actually, no. i pretty much summed up my thoughts on the subject in another thread. at the time, i expressed as little sympathy for MW as i do for any customer or stripper when it comes to this issue. in any case, why are you asking me? Sorry, I meant to project that, in my mind, it's a rhetorical question and the obvious answer is yes, it is trading one destructive behavior for another.
would you prefer that i sugar coat it for you?Well, it's about damn time. Chocolate-coated would be even better. And some flowers. Yes, roses would be good. Just to show you appreciate me.
look, a stripper works in a place where she does her best to become a sex object in order to extract money from men. so, she whispers sweet nothings in his ear, takes off her clothes, and grinds on his dick (splooging optional). in response, a customer asks her a simple question. ohhh...big surprise. can you really say the question is unexpected in a sc? To directly quote someone well known here, I thought I made that clear. It's unexpected to be asked to do something illegal. Well, I should be perfectly honest. I expect the question; I just don't expect being asked to perform an illegal act to be condoned, encouraged or considered part of a civil transaction in a strip club.
well, no one is talking about being rude. i thought i made that clear. like i said, it is a problem if the guy becomes demanding or if he can't take "no" for an answer. however, if he's polite in asking his question. it seems rather extreme to take insult. sometimes, a customer just doesn't know if a stripper is a player and asking is the only way to find out. in any case, a stripper that is not interested can just say "No" and she doesn't have to worry about taking chances of any sort. Yeah, I've run into a lot of guys who put no pressure, no intimidation, no expectation into the question. That politeness is just almost inherent in the nature of the request to a stripper for most men. They are soooo sheepish when they ask; it's like they're hoping for the best but anticipate a "no" answer. It's so odd to hear blow job, pretty please and ma'm in the same sentence. Only a few of these requests have the nature of entitlement or pleading sewn right into the semantics. For those few men, perhaps you should teach classes (Blowjob Wealth?) on how to ask ever so politely and civilized.
you know, i've read quite a few comments from strippers about how society is close-minded about the ideal of sex work. i find that very ironic because more than a few strippers would fit into that group as well. in reality, we're all deviants in the eyes of larger society.I thought we had it all settled that those classy ad hominems are left to me? Besides, my stance of expecting customers to stay within existing legal boundaries for business and political reasons is very pro-strip club. Maybe if strippers and customers hadn't crashed through those boundaries so much, some of us wouldn't be facing a public backlash of anti-strip club legislation (http://www.senate.mo.gov/05info/BTS_Web/Bill.aspx?SessionType=R&BillID=41).
-Ev
Full of tasty ad hominem goodness.
Moneywise
03-09-2005, 05:33 AM
Hey, don't do that again. It won't quote the altered quote. I had to resort to the antiquated act of copy and paste. :(
Oops sorry, I didn't know we were going to be defining prostitution by using the Bill Clinton version of reality. I get it. If I'm on the right wavelength now, I think I hear you saying that you did not have sexual relations for money with that woman, the stripper, who administered the BJ in the club.
I, however, originally said "soliciting prostitution arrest," which implies the police's definition, not Clinton's. But let me rephrase my description given this confusion. Let's eliminate OTC altogether. In place of sex or prostitution or blowjob in the club, let's substitute "An act in the club that you and/or the stripper would get arrested for performing if the cops witnessed it." How's that? Takes the value judgment about what is or isn't sex or prostitution right out of it in favor of more universal legal criteria.
And I'm not upset that you altered my quote to describe your specific situation. I see plainly now that my use of "this PL" logically referred back to you. I had intended to mean any PL who followed the company line given here because I didn't know whether or not you had done so completely or in moderation; I was merely assuming that you had received the standard advice. I didn't feel inclined to look up any of your TR examples to check because I'm generally on a philosophical rant, not a personal indictment rant.
-Ev
Philosophical rants bore me.
Moneywise
03-09-2005, 05:41 AM
It's unexpected to be asked to do something illegal. Well, I should be perfectly honest. I expect the question; I just don't expect being asked to perform an illegal act to be condoned, encouraged or considered part of a civil transaction in a strip club.
Yeah, I've run into a lot of guys who put no pressure, no intimidation, no expectation into the question. That politeness is just almost inherent in the nature of the request to a stripper for most men. They are soooo sheepish when they ask; it's like they're hoping for the best but anticipate a "no" answer. It's so odd to hear blow job, pretty please and ma'm in the same sentence. Only a few of these requests have the nature of entitlement or pleading sewn right into the semantics. For those few men, perhaps you should teach classes (Blowjob Wealth?) on how to ask ever so politely and civilized.
Wow EE. Do you honestly believe that extras don't happen in the club w/o some sort of question whether sheepish or not? I've found that on more than one occasion things happened because there was a mutual eye to eye connection. Nothing really had to be said. The progression just naturally took place. People don't always go into clubs asking questions. They've been known to just go in expecting to have fun and end up rolling with the tide of whatever happens.
Sheepish? Confidence works much better than the sheepish approach. A man with confidence and a kind gentlemanly nature can often open doors w/o even asking for then to be opened. Call it karma. Call it tepathy. Call it whatever you want. Some girls enjoy a guy that truly cares (or at least projects that image to them) in a world where so many aholes exist.
evan_essence
03-10-2005, 04:43 AM
Wow EE. Do you honestly believe that extras don't happen in the club w/o some sort of question whether sheepish or not?
No, when did I say that? By addressing (humorously, I might add) the issue of customer-requested hanky panky, I was not discounting the issue of stripper-initiated activity without verbal prompting.
-Ev
mr_punk
03-12-2005, 10:41 PM
And thus, he wouldn't be complaining about what he doesn't recognize. But let's drop it. You say to-may-toe, I say to-mah-toe.as you wish...the matter is dropped.
Oh, no, my bad. I didn't know the title was intended to limit the discussion to a conclusion that complaints about objectification are running rampant on the pink site. Crap, why didn't you say you didn't want anyone to disagree with you, and that disagreeing about the extent of the complaints about objectification would be seen as taking the thread off topic?oy vey, first she says let's drop it. yet, she still goes on about it. very well, as you wish. first of all, "running rampant"? i don't recall making that description. in any case, how would you know if anything is or isn't running rampant from, if i may quote you, "admittedly a small but I assume representative sampling". secondly, like jenny you still keep interjecting rudeness into the equation. it isn't about rudeness. i'm not even talking about rudeness. i've agreed countless of times that rudeness is bad. lilith summed up perfectly what i'm talking about:
As Punk illustrated in the title, the objectifying (walking ATMs, fembots) goes both ways in the strip club. IMO, it's a natural method of streamlining the business transaction and completely fine... when done the right way. The subtle touch is necessary here. Do it, but you should never be obvious about it. The club is a quasi-social setting and making it clear that you're only interested in one shallow aspect of a person is, paradoxically and yet inherently, offensive. Chalk it up to one more complication of doing what is strictly business in what is a seemingly social setting.
she's 100% correct. it is a paradox that complicates the transaction. objectification is a two-way street and it is inherently offensive. however, i argue that behavior is normal inside of a sc. look, we all know what the other party wants when we step inside of a stripclub. the strippers covets the customer's money and the customers covets the stripper. yet, each party seems to expect that the other party pretends otherwise. which is a bit silly and unrealistic, IMO, if you happen to work or patronize an environment that mixes women and men all in a crass display of sex and greed. case in point:
And thus, he wouldn't be complaining about what he doesn't recognize. But let's drop it. You say to-may-toe, I say to-mah-toe.well, that doesn't explain why many customers respond negatively to "wanna dance"? some customers find the phrase "wanna dance", to be inherently rude, offensive or tactless simply because it's such a blatantly objectifying statement. it's as if the stripper is really saying, "i'm not really interested in chit-chatting wth you. i just want your money.". you see, the statement itself isn't offensive. however, the fact that the dancer appears to be so obvious in her objectification is what they find offensive. isn't that why strippers perfer to say anything other than "wanna dance"? anyway, i find that overreaction strange because i don't think i've ever met a stripper who wasn't interested in a customer's money. if any customer has been going to sc for any length of time. can he truly say that it's a complete surprise that strippers do, in fact, want his money. when i step inside a sc. i know and expect that a stripper wants my money. i hardly find that fact offensive. she can "wanna dance" and hard hustle me me all night long, but i'm not going to just give my money away. if i want a dance from her. i'll buy it. otherwise, she is no more entitled to my money than i am entitled to a BJ from her.
the same goes for strippers. if a customer makes it clear that he's only interested in a stripper bending over and showing her ass. it doesn't matter how politely he phrases the question. some strippers will find that statement offensive because he is obvious in his objectification. i mean, look at your previous statement:
A desire to improve what you're seeing could be communicated as a request or desire. "Please show me more of your lovely ass" or "I'd really love to see more of your lovely ass.""your lovely ass"? is he's buying a lap dance or a harlequin romance novel? i hope that's not an example of what dancers want to hear. if so, it does complicate matters greatly. if a polite question such as, "would you mind bending over and showing me your ass", just won't do. if dancer also needs to hear a little sweet talk on top of the money. what's next? a PL needs flowers and candy to get a stripper to bend over and show her ass?
Well, I should be perfectly honest. I expect the question; I just don't expect being asked to perform an illegal act to be condoned, encouraged or considered part of a civil transaction in a strip club.i'm not asking you to perform, condone or encourage any illegal act. that's your call, not mine. however, when i walk into a sc and get nasty with a dancer. that's our call and not yours.
Yeah, I've run into a lot of guys who put no pressure, no intimidation, no expectation into the question. <snip>can you blame them. it's very, very difficult to separate the players from the non-players. so, you have to be careful not to offend. you need a sixth sense about this sort of thing in order to read the signals of who might be a player. in fact, i came up with sort of an aptitude test to help sheepish customers tell the difference.
Q: a stripper performs a texas rubdown on a customer's crotch with the intent on making him splooge. player or non-player?
A: non-player. the stripper is most likely a CMT trying out a new massage technique.
Q: while talking to a customer. a stripper comes on all hot and heavy with the sex talk. she suggests that more is available in the CR. player or non-player?
A: player. very much like the mormons. strippers are very trustworthy and would never say something they don't mean.
Q: a stripper with a foreign accent extends her hand and grasps a customer's willy and shakes it in a friendly manner during a dance. player or non-player?
A: non-player. the stripper is most likely greeting the customer in a custom native to her country. so, a customer should spread american goodwill by responding in kind to give foreign visitors a positive view of the U.S.
Q: a stripper palpates a customer's crotch with her hands, knees, face, etc. player or non-player?
A: non-player. the stripper is most likely a nursing student perfoming an exam for an inguinal hernia.
Q: a stripper performs the 10th consecutive humdrum, run-of-the-mill, McLapdance with all the enthusiasm of a bored housewife. player or non-player?
A: big-time player. feel free to ask about blowjobs.
No, when did I say that? By addressing (humorously, I might add) the issue of customer-requested hanky panky, I was not discounting the issue of stripper-initiated activity without verbal prompting.well, i won't let you. strippers taking their own initiative? it's absurd to even suggest that a stripper would use her feminine wiles to suggest, hint or imply either verbally or non verbally to prompt a customer into thinking that more is available (actual or implied) in order to extract more money from a customer. why..that...that..that...would be hustling and strippers would never do such a thing.
Besides, my stance of expecting customers to stay within existing legal boundaries for business and political reasons is very pro-strip club. Maybe if strippers and customers hadn't crashed through those boundaries so much, some of us wouldn't be facing a public backlash of anti-strip club legislation.why stop there? if the politicians would stop picking on stripclubs in legislation. perhaps they would stop making them convenient targets during elections in order to pander to their constituents. groups against stripclubs (who lobby the politicians) would stop arguing secondary effects in courts and if they did argue it. perhaps the courts would disagree with them. why, even the supreme court may decide to give full constitutional protection for LD. cops would stop taking the money in the paper bag or stop looking in sc for signs of drugs and money laundering, or stop responding to complaints from the community about sc, etc. all the previous perception about your industry's corrupt morals and deviant behavior would become water under the bridge and they'll welcome you with open arms into larger society. why, even husbands might start telling their wives about their jaunts to the sc for some clean wholesome fun. sure, it could happen. maybe even as early as next year.....
Nicolina
03-12-2005, 11:25 PM
i'm not asking you to perform, condone or encourage any illegal act. that's your call, not mine. however, when i walk into a sc and get nasty with a dancer. that's our call and not yours.
I can't agree with you here. If out-and-out prostitution is happening inside the club, that hurts everyone involved, including the SCJ. If you're seeking a specific sexual act, why not just go to a massage parlor, brothel, or choice street corner? Or find a dancer who's willing to work OTC?
evan_essence
03-13-2005, 06:01 AM
oy vey, first she says let's drop it. yet, she still goes on about it.Well, yeah, I meant drop it after I get the last word in. I thought that was self-evident.
first of all, "running rampant"? i don't recall making that description. in any case, how would you know if anything is or isn't running rampant from, if i may quote you, "admittedly a small but I assume representative sampling". I stand corrected. You do not think that complaints about objectification are running rampant on the pink site. I thought that was my position, but I'm glad I was under a misimpression and that we actually agree about it.
secondly, like jenny you still keep interjecting rudeness into the equation. it isn't about rudeness. i'm not even talking about rudeness. i've agreed countless of times that rudeness is bad. lilith summed up perfectly what i'm talking about:I'm like Jenny? You flatterer! This may be hard to believe, but perhaps you have a narrower perception of what is rude than we do; that could be the catalyst for that merry-go-round.
she's 100% correct. it is a paradox that complicates the transaction. objectification is a two-way street and it is inherently offensive. however, i argue that behavior is normal inside of a sc. look, we all know what the other party wants when we step inside of a stripclub. the strippers covets the customer's money and the customers covets the stripper. yet, each party seems to expect that the other party pretends otherwise. which is a bit silly and unrealistic, IMO, if you happen to work or patronize an environment that mixes women and men all in a crass display of sex and greed. case in point: You're agreeing with Lilith but you sound as if you're hedging a bit on her conclusion that "The subtle touch is necessary here. Do it, but you should never be obvious about it." Do you mean that it's silly and unrealistic to be subtle or am I misreading that? Because if you do, we may have found a key point of our disagreement.
well, that doesn't explain why many customers respond negatively to "wanna dance"? some customers find the phrase "wanna dance", to be inherently rude, offensive or tactless simply because it's such a blatantly objectifying statement. ... i find that overreaction strange because i don't think i've ever met a stripper who wasn't interested in a customer's money. if any customer has been going to sc for any length of time. can he truly say that it's a complete surprise that strippers do, in fact, want his money.I don't agree with you that customer complaint about "wanna dance" is an overreaction. It's a poor way to interact because it lacks the subtlety that Lilith was referring to. I think we have a disagreement about whether or not it's reasonable for the customer to be offended and then complain whenever he doesn't receive that subtlety.
the same goes for strippers. if a customer makes it clear that he's only interested in a stripper bending over and showing her ass. it doesn't matter how politely he phrases the question. some strippers will find that statement offensive because he is obvious in his objectification. i mean, look at your previous statement:Well, for me, the drooling and throbbing usually tip me off, so I disagree polite phrasing doesn't show some respect since I already know I'm being objectified. I'll agree that some number of strippers might find the question offensive no matter what, but I'm betting that the number drops dramatically as the subtlety increases because the subtlety is seen as politeness.
"your lovely ass"? is he's buying a lap dance or a harlequin romance novel? i hope that's not an example of what dancers want to hear. if so, it does complicate matters greatly. if a polite question such as, "would you mind bending over and showing me your ass", just won't do. if dancer also needs to hear a little sweet talk on top of the money. what's next? a PL needs flowers and candy to get a stripper to bend over and show her ass? If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were deliberately engaging in selective quoting and moving the target to confuse the discussion. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, lest you find an example of mine, and considering I myself find it difficult at times to focus on the original point after the discussion has bogged down in specific subpoints. And it's so hard to look back at the original when it was five thesis-paper-length posts ago.
I wouldn't expect you to automatically recognize this, but I was using "lovely" as a humorous embellishment of politeness, so chalk that one up to miscommunication and delete the word. But I believe it was clear in the original post that the main point was the difference in the amount of respect or politeness between a demand and a request - a point that got lost when you concentrated on my "lovely ass."
Btw, you never did answer my inquiry about whether you actually expect to bite a girl's ass or you were exaggerating.
i'm not asking you to perform, condone or encourage any illegal act. that's your call, not mine. however, when i walk into a sc and get nasty with a dancer. that's our call and not yours.I think we've already established that you indeed are asking me to perform. I think you mean you're not asking me without politely giving me the option of declining.
It strikes me there's a parallel to spam here. You're like the spammer who assumes a right to pollute my inbox. I have to opt out from the flood of solicitations drowning me. What I'm requesting is for you to use the double opt-in procedure. Only I can solicit an illegal act between us and then you have to get an additional confirmation from me before the interaction proceeds.
can you blame them. it's very, very difficult to separate the players from the non-players. so, you have to be careful not to offend. you need a sixth sense about this sort of thing in order to read the signals of who might be a player. in fact, i came up with sort of an aptitude test to help sheepish customers tell the difference. This is not the problem you make it into. Always assume not a player, whether it's true or not. Not only is that a way to set new levels of politeness, but also, that way neither of a customer's heads will explode from the tension of seeking a player.
groups against stripclubs (who lobby the politicians) would stop arguing secondary effects in courts and if they did argue it. perhaps the courts would disagree with them.I fail to see the parody aspect of what you're saying here. If you remove illegal sexual acts and drugs, which are the main secondary effects that have been successful in court arguments, what secondary effects would be left to argue? Would that stop all the opposition you cited? No. But it would give the opposition less ammunition and make a freedom of expression argument more viable. I believe what you're doing is called shitting in your own nest.
-Ev