View Full Version : Sluts and slobs II
SportsWriter2
12-15-2004, 09:19 PM
In almost all your other posts, you talk about the extras and sexual favors you get, and brag about them as if they were some kind of male right of passage, and now here you are trying to come off as some kinda nice guy, and denying that you do the things that you have previously claimed to do. I'm not denying extras. SCJ has lots of trip reports with (mostly minor) extras. Both customers and dancers have posted OTC (outside the club) reports on SCJ. Even nice guys and nice girls can have fun. But I have turned down scores of sexual favors and spent 90 percent of my money on nice girls, mainly because I'm conscious of health risks.
OTB, point taken. This is not a sports audience.
aggieed
12-16-2004, 07:58 AM
I find it despicable for someone to take advantage of another person's naivete, lack of education, or low-self esteem. It's disgusting for one human being to do this to another.
LOL! THIS really cracks me up. You realize that you can very well turn this statement around so that it describes what strippers do to some men (especially when it comes to naive men with little to no self-esteem)...all for a buck.
Oh, but wait, we're on a website geared primarily for strippers so I guess strippers really can do no wrong. Yes, yes, I understand that now. ::)
But that discussion has been beaten to death on this forum before, and I'm not one to take a thread too much farther off-topic. Sorry, Jay. I promise to go back into my little corner...just wanted people to realize that manipulation is a two-way street in strip clubs as well as just about anywhere else in life.
easy$$
12-16-2004, 08:38 AM
wow - guess I am nore naive than I thought!
FONDL
12-16-2004, 09:30 AM
My ATF, one of the most intelligent and preceptive people that I know, says there are two types of people in the world: givers and takers. Givers recognize this but the takers think everyone is a taker. Much like manipulation, all small children start out as takers, but the lucky ones learn to become givers as they mature. Strip clubs are full of takers on both sides of the tip rail. I don't avoid the takers but I sure treat them differently. But there are plenty of givers in SCs too, and that's a trait I look for in a dancer. And I've been amazed at how generous some dancers are. It's been my experience that givers are usually much happier people than takers. As Wayne Dyer says, "The measure of your life will not be in what you accumulate but in what you give away." Unfortunately our popular media mostly presents the opposite point of view, which is why we have so much unhappiness in our society.
yoda57us
12-16-2004, 12:41 PM
My ATF, one of the most intelligent and preceptive people that I know, says there are two types of people in the world: givers and takers. Givers recognize this but the takers think everyone is a taker.Your right, your ATF is a very smart women. I broadly categorize people in much the same way, subject to fine-tuning once I get to know someone a little better.
The only caveat I see here is the fact that, in a strip club, men and women are not on equal ground. We, as customers, are in the club strictly for our enjoyment. Dancers are their to earn a living. They do this by creating a fantasy that, like it or not, on some level, involves some manipulation. How much depends on the woman, the customer and, sometimes, how much money is involved. Smart customers understand this and choose the women they prefer based on how she presents herself in the club. One thing I have learned over the years is that you should never underestimate what some women are capable of doing to support themselves, their children or their families. What you see inside the club is not always the same on the outside.
Bridgette
12-16-2004, 01:05 PM
LOL! THIS really cracks me up. You realize that you can very well turn this statement around so that it describes what strippers do to some men (especially when it comes to naive men with little to no self-esteem)...all for a buck.
Oh, but wait, we're on a website geared primarily for strippers so I guess strippers really can do no wrong. Yes, yes, I understand that now. ::) Shaking head. Come on now Ed. Most of us around here do not advocate taking advantage of a customer's naivete, certainly nothing even CLOSE to what some of you guys brag about - "breaking girls down", getting them to do way more than they're comfortable with, and so forth. We advocate giving good dances and providing as much enjoyment as we can within appropriate limits (legal, club standards and personal comfort level). I find that blanket statement - "what strippers do to some men" - HIGHLY offensive. Gimme a break!
Getting back on topic. Fondl makes a good point about givers and takers. They're everywhere, takers and givers alike. I think the tendencies are just exaggerated in the SC - like most other personality traits. A product of the environment.
doc-catfish
12-16-2004, 03:56 PM
Just to interject (and I hope I'm not OT)...
I'm not sure why the word "manipulation" has gotten such a bad rap here. Folks, all business transactions between a buyer and seller involve manipulation, and the seller more often than not gets as good as they give (otherwise I don't think we'd be having this discussion). In many cases, this happens so subtly, you don't even recognize it.
When a dancer upps the intensity towards the end of a dance in hopes that the customer will buy another, thats manipulation. When a customer puts a wad of cash in open view hoping that it will attract dancers attention, manipulation. When you buy something in a store and the cashier says "thank you" on your way out, manipulation. When you refuse a car salesman's asking price when shopping for a new vehicle, manipulation.
Provided they don't try to scam me, I cast no blame on a dancer for giving me her best shot. That's what keeps me coming back. I don't try to scam others, but I offer no apoligies for having the backbone to turn gals down who don't meet my standards, or cut off business with those whom I feel have taken my patronage for granted. Frankly, I think the more a dancer hears the word "no", the better a salesperson she'll be in the long run.
Brittany
12-16-2004, 04:45 PM
I don't think we were speaking of the "accepted" seller/buyer manipulation here, like what one experiences buying a car. I think that most people know exactly what we are speaking of, and instead of addressing it, are trying to make it seem like it's less of an evil than what it actually is. Maybe it's because they do it themselves and don't want to admit to themselves and everyone else what it is they are truly doing?
The fact that the whole club experience is one of "Mutual Exploitation" (to steal a phrase from my old fav Miss B) shouldnt be a big surprise to anyone who has spent time at strip clubs. As an avid customer, I keep my expectations reasonable therefore I'm rarely disappointed and have a great time 99% of the time. Beats the hell out of my SC drama days from a few years ago.
I'm with Jay that its good to see the thread moving back on topic. Based on the number of posts, the members find it interesting.
FBR
SportsWriter2
12-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Manipulation means playing by artful, unfair or insidious means.
Saying that Ed made a blanket statement is unfair. I see a limiting adjective in his sentence. ;)
Implying that anyone wants dancers to do "way more than they're comfortable with" is insidious, because it's just not in this thread. ::)
When my ATF comes out in her white dress and walks slowly toward me with a shy smile like I might not want her, that's artful. :)
Bridgette
12-17-2004, 07:56 AM
"what strippers do" - is not limiting. It's a blanket statement. Try again sporty.
We've been drawing from posts in other threads when referring to "breaking girls down" and getting them to do way more than they're comfortable with. Don't even try to say guys don't do that - or that some of the guys here don't do it when there's been so much bragging about it in other discussions. THAT's insidious. :P
Anyway, last night my bf and I went to an SC for a lil playtime and met an SW member, she happened to be the one we both thought was the best girl working (SW girls are the best ;D ). We of course had to get some dances. She wasn't a slut and we weren't slobs but she was hot and when we got home he acted like a slob and fucked me like a good lil slut deserves :P
FONDL
12-17-2004, 10:20 AM
Maybe Webster woudn't agree, but I view manipulation as using essentially dishonest means to get someone else to do something that they otherwise wouldn't do. Like pretending to be in love with a girl to get in her pants. Yes some salespeople will use dishonesty but in my experience most don't. And yes some strippers will too, but again in my experience most don't. But then those are the girls who I specifically look for. But I never seem to have much trouble finding them.
FONDL
12-17-2004, 11:34 AM
Thanks, Jay. The reason I didn't bother to look it up is because words sometimes acquire connotations through common usage that are somewhat different, and often stronger and more negative, than their historical meaning (like the word "discriminate" for example.) I think this is one such case.
Brittany
12-18-2004, 02:27 AM
Thank you djoser. Thank you. How nice to finally hear a man tell another man what I have been thinking for all these years about the men who I see manipulate girls this way. I think more men should step in when they see another man treating someone like crap and debasing them. Because it's not the guy who degrades and debases women in an effort to prove his masculinity and dominance that is the real man, but the man who knows he has nothing to prove and doesn't stand for it when he sees an injustice that is the REAL man.
I find it despicable for someone to take advantage of another person's naivete, lack of education, or low-self esteem. It's disgusting for one human being to do this to another.
Just thought I'd reiterate the point I made earlier.
I'm not surprised that a bunch of guys who go into a strip club and try to get as much as they can for as little as they can, and brag about it in some of their posts can't admit to themselves what it is that they are really doing.
Not surprised at all.
SportsWriter2
12-18-2004, 09:54 AM
We've been drawing from posts in other threads when referring to "breaking girls down" and getting them to do way more than they're comfortable with. Don't even try to say guys don't do that - or that some of the guys here don't do it when there's been so much bragging about it in other discussions. THAT's insidious. :P Come on, Bridgette, you fabricated that quote. Go to the SW advanced search tool. Search for the complete character string, breaking girls down. In the whole history of SW and SCJ, you're the only one who ever used that phrase... beginning two days ago. :(
Now try break her down. I used that phrase, with an explanation of what it means in coaching. You ignored it, maybe because it doesn't fit your Evil Customer view of the subculture. :O
Djoser has admitted coaching dancers, too. He wrote that some new dancers "were without a clue as to who held what kind of power, and usually all my efforts to guide or protect them until they figured it out were of no avail." Just another frustrated White Knight? Maybe, but at least he tried to do the right thing. :-\
Do some guys go to clubs to get as much action as they can for as little money as possible? Of course. You danced in a Providence club where girls go right around the nude stage tip rail offering cookie licks for a buck. But I wouldn't go near that; the health risks are ridiculous. :O
"what strippers do" - is not limiting. It's a blanket statement. Try again sporty. Try again Bridgette. Read the complete phrase: "what strippers do to some guys" or the complete original sentence. Either way, it contains an adjective, some, which is limiting. Remember adjectives from elementary school? :)
Now make the leap to middle school. If someone says "what people do to nice waitresses," we would not presume it meant all people. Why? Because most of us grew up with English and understand context. ;)
I point out these problems because I learn from SW. I find a lot of helpful insights from dancers here, but your misrepresentations and F/S language add nothing to my understanding. And it's a shame, because you're obviously an intelligent person.
evan_essence
12-20-2004, 02:11 AM
Come on, Bridgette, you fabricated that quote. Go to the SW advanced search tool. Search for the complete character string, breaking girls down. In the whole history of SW and SCJ, you're the only one who ever used that phrase... beginning two days ago. :(
Now try break her down. I used that phrase, with an explanation of what it means in coaching. You ignored it, maybe because it doesn't fit your Evil Customer view of the subculture. :OFor the record, quotation marks, especially when used without attribution, are not reserved exclusively for direct quotes. They're sometimes used around words or phrases to indicate a term with special meaning, equivalent to using so-called as a qualifier. The phrase breaking girls down doesn't have to be a direct quote from a person to be placed in quotation marks, but rather can be a reference to the so-called practice of breaking girls down.
Try again Bridgette. Read the complete phrase: "what strippers do to some guys" or the complete original sentence. Either way, it contains an adjective, some, which is limiting. Remember adjectives from elementary school? :)
Now make the leap to middle school. If someone says "what people do to nice waitresses," we would not presume it meant all people. Why? Because most of us grew up with English and understand context. ;)Argh! Let's go to college because the inconsistency here is killing me. You're saying the author put a limiting adjective on guys, but expected context to fill in the blank on strippers? By the context of when an adjective was used and when it wasn't, it wouldn't be unreasonable to interpret that he meant all strippers since that wasn't limited while guys was quantified with some. Only the original author knows for sure what his intent was. If some is supposed to be understood for strippers, leaving it unstated is not uncommon in informal writing and certainly not a federal crime, but a lecture on English to the person who noted the missing adjective should be, IMHO.
And I thought my communications degree would go to waste in this profession. /:O
-Ev
evan_essence
12-20-2004, 03:23 AM
Maybe Webster woudn't agree, but I view manipulation as using essentially dishonest means to get someone else to do something that they otherwise wouldn't do. Like pretending to be in love with a girl to get in her pants. Yes some salespeople will use dishonesty but in my experience most don't. And yes some strippers will too, but again in my experience most don't. But then those are the girls who I specifically look for. But I never seem to have much trouble finding them.Seems like much, if not all, of our disagreement on this topic centers around our concepts and definitions of manipulation and dishonesty. I don't consider manipulation to be solely unfair or insidious, but think it can be artful, especially in an entertainment setting. Great fiction for entertainment manipulates your emotions, but it's art, not deceit. In a SC context, I consider playing a role for the purpose of weaving a fantasy to your liking to be about as dishonest as acting on a theater stage to the audience's delight.
Note to self. Add "improv" to my resume. :sly:
-Ev
SportsWriter2
12-20-2004, 05:45 AM
For the record, quotation marks, especially when used without attribution, are not reserved exclusively for direct quotes. Yes, Ev, but she claimed to be "drawing from posts in other threads " and that was false attribution. Not nice. :-\
If some is supposed to be understood for strippers, leaving it unstated is not uncommon in informal writing... Exactly, which made me wonder why Bridgette would find it a "HIGHLY offensive" blanket statement. Talk about hyperbole! ::)
Seems like much, if not all, of our disagreement on this topic centers around our concepts and definitions of manipulation and dishonesty. I don't consider manipulation to be solely unfair or insidious, but think it can be artful, especially in an entertainment setting. I agree. Manipulation is a crossover concept, good or bad from different perspectives. You're definitely artful. ;)
And I thought my communications degree would go to waste in this profession. /:O It certainly wasn't wasted on SW or me. I'd buy out your shift just to find out what else you know. You'd make a great PR consultant, and I say that out of respect for you and the profession. :)
FONDL
12-22-2004, 12:54 PM
I agree with you, Evanessense, that creating a fantasy in the SC environment is part of your job, and when done well it's real art. And as long as that's as far as it goes I don't think of that as being either dishonest or manipulative at all. But let's face it, some customers and dancers will go way beyond that to try to accomplish their objectives. If I'm in an SC and don't find a dancer whose company I enjoy, I will sometimes amuse myself by listening to some of the nearby conversations between customer and dancer. And usually it's the customer who is using dishonesty while trying to convince (manipulate) the dancer to do something. Of course the guys call it bullshit rather than dishonesty. It can be very funny to listen in.
Bridgette
12-22-2004, 03:19 PM
Twist it some more sporty. Avoid being honest at all costs.
Bridgette
12-22-2004, 03:49 PM
LOL! You tryin to say I'm a bullshitter? :P
Bridgette
12-22-2004, 05:39 PM
Uh huh :brow:
:moon: :P
devilkitty
12-23-2004, 01:43 AM
O.k tell me what I am....I have two jobs, legal secertary/stripper, I dont drink and only smoke pot and most people like me except the ones that think I am taking their money cause i am fairly new. I am single with no kids , Make my money and go stright home.
devilkitty
12-23-2004, 01:44 AM
Oh yeah and i am a clean dancer my club is pretty much no contact except sides
evan_essence
12-23-2004, 04:29 AM
It certainly wasn't wasted on SW or me. I'd buy out your shift just to find out what else you know. You'd make a great PR consultant, and I say that out of respect for you and the profession. :)Recognizing the total futility of my critique and considering I can no longer even remotely see the topic of this thread from where I've positioned myself, I hereby step aside as copy editor.
And PR? I guess I'm not all about the money. I enjoy spinning fantasy for good, not evil. :angel:
-Ev
SportsWriter2
12-23-2004, 08:21 AM
Uh huh :brow:
:moon: :P
Nice ass, Bridgette. Not quite MeganS quality, but nice. :)
FONDL
12-23-2004, 11:44 AM
That's easy, devilkitty, you're a nice girl and you work in a nice club. And if I lived a thousand miles closer I'd come looking for you because you're the type I always try to find. Your club sounds like my kind too.
devilkitty
01-23-2005, 12:54 PM
Thanks for that FONDL kissy kissy;D
showgirlschloe
01-23-2005, 02:30 PM
When I grow up, I want to be a nice slut.;D But without the drug use, just the naughtiness.
FONDL
01-24-2005, 10:55 AM
Just have to digress for a minute - my computer sits on a desk next to a 2nd floor window and a clump birch is right outside, and there not 3 feet away sit a pair of cardinals watching me watching them and there's snow everywhere. Wow what a beautiful sight.
Anyway, I wish all dancers were nice sluts without drugs, sounds like the perfect combination. I love playful and a little naughty. Ever consider miving east, Chloe? I'll show you my cardinals.
LilRogueVixen
01-24-2005, 11:49 AM
i'm a college girl and i'm not on drugs, but you can bet your life that the outside world would think "slut" if they hear "stripper". :P I thought the strip club was the one place where people could get away from this good girl/bad girl drama :crowded: .