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Brittany
12-18-2004, 04:39 PM
I'm going to copy and paste my reply in the thread about the new San Antonio ordinances. It goes out to all you guys who willingly accept extras, or seek extras in the strip clubs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katrine
What a shame, I'm sure all of those dirty clubs you love Ed, are a good reason why this ordinance passed.

Thanks for nothing raincoaters.
.

Yeah. I often wonder why these guys just don't have some respect for the law and go someplace else. The strip club was supposed to be the place for entertainment, not sex acts. Now, through crappy managment, it's changed in a lot of places. Thus, we get these crappy ordinances because once the LE sees that Mgmt is no longer going to voluntarily do their job, LE passes ordinances to try to MAKE them do their job.
Raincoaters: If a girl offers you extras, please suggest that she meet you out of the club for them later. Really. And then only see her out of the club for said activities. Quit having absolutely no respect for the rest of us trying to make a living without breaking the law. Your behavior and reluctance to be a true "john" is slowly ruining the business in a lot of areas, and the day will come when the clubs are forced out of business all together.

Casual Observer
12-18-2004, 06:34 PM
I've never asked for or sought an extra in my life, but God knows I've received the moderated variety on more than a few occasions without the slightest provocation on my part. Many dancers that I've met take no qualms about initiating said activities.

When I first started going to SCs--back in 1990--I didn't even know you could get extras from girls; it just didn't seem particularly common. Now you can't swing a dead cat in a club without hitting two girls that will offer everything short of FS at discount prices with nothing more than an exchange of names, if that. For myself, it's always been just too unseemly in a club and not the reason I visit in the first place, but I can see where there's lots of guys that will take what's offered or ask what's available in the VIP rooms because of what's been discussed here.

Not to make this thread an echo chamber, but I will resonate what has been said here about subpar dancers seeming to make up the bulk of extras girls. I'm trying to recall a dancer that offered me extras that was normally what I'd find worthy of consideration in other circumstances, and I can't.

Wwanderer
12-18-2004, 11:19 PM
This stuff is happening all the time all around, in some places worse than others, but it's definitely trending this way everywhere.

A point that has been made before but which is well worth repeating, imo, is that it is not just strip clubs that are trending toward being more sexually permissive; out whole culture is moving steadily in that direction. TV, movies, magazines, the way ordinary people dress in public, behavior of celebrities, what is reported in the news.

Most dancers know this but may not be old enough to fully appreciate how strong the trend has been for decades now. Stuff that hardly raises an eyebrow today would have been a major scandal 3 or 4 decades back.

So it is hardly surprising that strip clubs, like all forms of entertainment, are also becoming more permissive.

-Ww

Bridgette
12-19-2004, 01:56 AM
Yeah, that's why there was such a stink made over Janet Jackson's pastie-covered breast. FCC meetings, fines, network regulations... ::) Real permissive there. LOL

I agree though, times are different now.


So what's a poor working girl to do? Some resort to extras. Frankly I'm glad that many of you won't do that. What other options are there?

Accept the lowered earnings potential, work harder and more hours, constantly work to improve sales skills, work to maximize profits during business hours (get as many dances as you can as fast as you can), travel, move to areas where choices are better. STILL, money potential is WAAAAAAYYY lower now than in the 90s. I only wish I'd been able to start dancing earlier to learn the ropes BEFORE the bubble burst. :(

Melonie
12-19-2004, 02:50 AM
When I first started going to SCs--back in 1990--I didn't even know you could get extras from girls; it just didn't seem particularly common. Now you can't swing a dead cat in a club without hitting two girls that will offer everything short of FS at discount prices with nothing more than an exchange of names, if that. For myself, it's always been just too unseemly in a club and not the reason I visit in the first place, but I can see where there's lots of guys that will take what's offered or ask what's available in the VIP rooms because of what's been discussed here.

As somebody who was on stage in the 90's, I can vouch for the fact that your assumptions are essentially correct !

I also agree that the trend towards more and more extras in clubs is very similar to steroid use by college/amateur athletes or, for that matter, to cleaning services which employ illegal aliens. In all three cases, certain participants are breaking the law in order to obtain a competitive advantage. This leaves those participants who are not also breaking the law with a dilemma - obey the law and 'lose out', start breaking the law yourself in order to remain competitive, or quit. However, extras in clubs is different in one way - LE agencies are often not very discriminating when it comes to making busts, such that law abiding dancers are exposed to significant risk of being (bogusly) busted right along with dancers actually offering extras.

leeah
12-19-2004, 04:00 AM
people complain about this and not other activities because not only is it illegal - it has to do also with safety- i'm sorry but i got hired to be a stripper/entertainer and being a whore or letting some weirdo with lord knows what shove something in me or touch my body is just rediculous- and that's an understatement- i mean, with all the stds floating around in the world all us women should not have to be made to feel like we must risk our lives to compete with other girls who need to do so just to make money- we've got a girl in our club right now who does "extras" such as grinding ( we do fully nude air dances) and tounging men's ears, biting their necks etc even kissing them on the mouth.....and to top it all of customers have been asking why i don't charge half price like she does?? i don't feel i should have to compete with that- it brings the whole club down....why lower the price of your naked ass and then kiss the guy's ass who is willing to pay half price for you...cuz that's all you're worth to the guy apparently....doing extras/discounts and whatever else is rediculous just because someone else is willing to contract something/put their health on the line for their ten dollars shouldn't mean that we all need to be patronized when we aren't willing to do that with our bodies. a trucker speeding to make better time on deliveries - in no way compares to having your crotch unwantedly grabbed because "it was ok with another girl so why not you."

Djoser
12-19-2004, 04:33 AM
a trucker speeding to make better time on deliveries - in no way compares to having your crotch unwantedly grabbed because "it was ok with another girl so why not you."

Precisely.

This is why some women get "emotional" about the topic, which in no way robs their position of logic or veracity. Not to mess with you CO (we have bickered more than enough in PP, lol), you are a smart guy, and a gentleman, but I don't find the blue site to be a bastion of dispassionate philosophical reason.

I get emotional about it, sometimes. It is revolting to me that guys think it is acceptable to commit sexual assault on every dancer in a club, because a few of them allow it. If disgust and contempt can be labelled emotions, which isn't stretching things terribly, I am experiencing emotion when I consider the position that some guys take on the issue here.

Go to the blue site and you will find a great deal of misplaced pride in getting dancers to perform BJs for 27.50$, plus cover charge and a tip to the waitress. This is an emotional state as well, as is indignation at a perceived close-mindedness on the part of dancers who don't want girls giving 27$ BJs in their club.

This doesn't mean I waste any time crying in the booth when I am on duty, or harass the extras girls in any club I work in. If the managers won't do anything, I'm not going to make waves, lose my job, and be politically correct. I have been good friends with several girls who performed extras, and other than warn them they might get their asses kicked by the other girls, I didn't waste my time trying to lecture them--they wouldn't have listened anyways.

Here it's a different matter. Here we can discuss trends in the industry that are hurting us all, and ways to circumvent extremely unpleasant working conditions without loss of income. Here we can enlighten the customer as to how it feels to have the dancer next to you in VIP grab a guy's dick, and then have that guy expect the same of you later in the night, or the guy you are dancing for right then and there.

SportsWriter2
12-19-2004, 08:18 PM
I get emotional about it, sometimes. It is revolting to me that guys think it is acceptable to commit sexual assault on every dancer in a club, because a few of them allow it. Djoser, is it your perception that "a few of them" actually allow sexual assault? In my experience, an extras girl works one of three ways:

1. She's verbally and tactily aggressive, stick shifting right from the opening sales pitch. She'll offer something fairly high on the Extras List. By the end of the first encounter you know she's available OTC.

2. She's coy, pressing against you and making verbal suggestions in the sales pitch. During the dance, she makes herself very easy to touch, then says "bad boy" with an impish smile as she brushes hands away after the fact. Later she explains that she has to cover her butt in case a bouncer is watching.

3. She's a nice girl on the first encounter, then says she really likes you and heads into extraland, repeatedly saying, "I don't do this with anyone else." She may also complain about other customers wanting to do whatever, because that seems to add to her credibility.

I'd be interested to know if dancers see other dancers upset because they succumbed to pressure and allowed someone to sexually assault them. I suspect that may well be the case, but I have never seen or heard of anything but active dancer participation.

I did know one softly beautiful extras girl who would entice professional guys to finger her, then start crying when they were halfway in. She'd get more and more emotional until guys offered money to calm her down. She once took $500 from a customer in 15 minutes with what she called her "rape fantasy stunt." The guy was visibly shaken. I liked the dancer personally, and knew her well enough to understood her psychological reasons for doing this.

Sometimes it's very hard to tell reality from acting, and I rarely see an extras girl ask for extra money.

Wwanderer
12-19-2004, 10:28 PM
Yeah, that's why there was such a stink made over Janet Jackson's pastie-covered breast. FCC meetings, fines, network regulations... ::) Real permissive there. LOL
I agree though, times are different now.

I know that you are not really disagreeing with me about the long term trend toward greater permissiveness, but just to take the Janet Jackson (semi) bare breast incident as an example, it too shows how much things have changed. Say, 40 years ago, that Super Bowl halftime show could not have been shown on national television, or would have been at least as controversial if it had been, even without the so-called "malfunction" that bared her breast. The costumes she and the other performers were wearing, the way they were dancing, the words to the song...all would have been consider hugely scandalous. It is hard to imagine how much things have changed.

(At the same time, of course, the US is one of the least sexually permissive countries in the First World; most Europeans, for example, were totally baffled by why the Janet Jackson incident was even news, much less a big deal.)

-Ww

scarlett623
12-19-2004, 11:11 PM
I'd be interested to know if dancers see other dancers upset because they succumbed to pressure and allowed someone to sexually assault them. I suspect that may well be the case, but I have never seen or heard of anything but active dancer participation. In my experience the girls that give into pressure and let customers get away with things they shouldn't tend to be young and inexperienced. They aren't quite into the dancer mentality yet that you have to be in control at all times. They still are operating on socially accepted practices that require women to submit quietly to a mans will. They are too afraid of looking stupid or prudish or of making waves. They don't want to offend or piss someone off so they just put up a half-hearted attempt at stopping it. Only later do they really realize that you don't have to put up with that type of behavior.

Djoser
12-20-2004, 01:39 AM
Djoser, is it your perception that "a few of them" actually allow sexual assault?

...I'd be interested to know if dancers see other dancers upset because they succumbed to pressure and allowed someone to sexually assault them. I suspect that may well be the case, but I have never seen or heard of anything but active dancer participation.


Perhaps it may seem that I exceeded logic, and the reality of the situation, when I claimed that "...a few of them allow it [sexual assault]".

Not so...

If a guy shoves his hands into a woman's panties, without specifically asking her if this is acceptable to her, and then proceeds to shove one of his fingers up her p*ssy, again without asking specifically if this is OK, it would be considered sexual assault, anywhere else but in a fucking stripclub.

In a stripclub, especially one with heavy extras going on, this is not at all unusual. The dancers may or may not accept the invading hands or digits. In the nicest club in Detroit, fully half of all the 'respectable' businessmen who buy VIP dances will automatically try to finger the dancers. Many of the dancers will let them. Some will stop the process. Some of these 'gentlemen' will persist, even against all but the firmest physical resistance, without specifically asking if their physical actions are acceptable. Assuming it will be so, or that it's ok to at least try this hard, since others allow it.

When a high-spirited but slightly naive friend of mine started in this classiest of establishments, the house mom recommended that she wear a tampon to help prevent uninvited fingers from invading her vagina. This would hardly be necessary in a situation where men only tried to finger fuck women who had specifically invited this to occur.

If sexual assault be defined as grabbing a woman's ass, breasts, or p*ssy without her express permission, then sexual assault is well-neigh universal in stripclubs, and a great deal of it comes from the male employees of the clubs. Such as any of the three--DJ, bouncer, or manager--that attempted to grab a dancer friend of mine's ass one of her first nights in a new club. Customers regularly grab the asses of dancers, and sometimes think it is quite amusing if this is not received well.

But perhaps this latter definition of sexual assault, though legally accurate, is too strict.

By the way, how many coaches who "break down" a new football player accept a blowjob from him?

SeppeSai
12-20-2004, 01:57 AM
When a friend of mine started in this classiest of establishments, the house mom recommended that she wear a tampon to help prevent uninvited fingers from invading her vagina. This would hardly be necessary in a situation where men only tried to finger fuck women who had specifically invited this to occur.

Since the housemom advised the new dancer, does that mean that management knows what's going on and allows it to happen?

bikinigirl04
12-20-2004, 02:17 AM
djoser i love reading your posts
that kind of shit makes me so mad. these kinds of things are what is degrading, not, as some people seems to think it should be, the act of stripping and lapdancing.
i wish guys would realize that girls do not just dance around naked in the street! we are doing them a favor by having a place to come see naked girls. they are doing us a favor by coming in. why cant they treat us with some respect. obviously not all custies do this or we would not do it if we didn't like it. it is not the norm. but it is way too common, especially with management/staff at some places. a manager or bouncer slapping my ass (especially if we are not that friendly with each other) makes me feel worse than a slob out on the floor.

Djoser
12-20-2004, 02:26 AM
Since the housemom advised the new dancer, does that mean that management knows what's going on and allows it to happen?

If a reporter or government official asked management if they were aware this shit was going on, the answer would almost certainly be no.

In reality, management is generally well aware of what is happening in the VIP room of their own club, and generally speaking will do very little to stop it. Management usually makes more money from extras activities, so they usually could give a rat's ass about the moral/legal issues involved.


...it is way too common, especially with management/staff at some places. a manager or bouncer slapping my ass (especially if we are not that friendly with each other) makes me feel worse than a slob out on the floor.

The lack of respect with which management and male staff at stripclubs treat the dancers goes a long way towards perpetuating the problems of dancers being treated badly by customers as well. Unfortunately, the attitude is so common amongst male staff that it is eventually perceived as normal, acceptable, and even friendly behavior.

This lead to the ridiculous notion that a DJ who literally humped the leg of a dancer friend of mine was "just kidding around", since he "did it to all the girls". I knew damned well the guy was being a prick.

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 04:05 AM
Djoser, is it your perception that "a few of them" actually allow sexual assault? Definitely. Over the years I've had more than a few physically force themselves on me - forcefully pulling on my thong and trying to shove fingers into my vagina in a quick attack kind of way, so that the only way I could stop it was to back away and yell. They would wait until I was in a position (such as straddling during a lapdance) which would make it difficult for me to get away quickly, and even as I was getting up, telling them "STOP IT" and physically trying to push their hands away, they continued until I hit them in the face, managed to get back far enough, made enough noise. I have even had some physically hold me down with one hand so I had to hit them and scream. There is no doubt that these same guys do the same thing and get away with it, with other girls who are less willing to put up a fight. As Bikinigirl said, most of the young inexperienced girls don't realize they don't HAVE to put up with it and are afraid they won't make money and/or won't be accepted if they don't put up with it.

These guys do other things like: In a strictly one-way contact club where guys are expected to keep their hands on the chairarms, sit with their hands just barely on the chairarms, to the inside, and stick their thumbs out so they can graze the sides of a dancer as she's doing a lapdance. If the dancer puts her arms inside the guy's arms to push his hands back, the guy will physically resist because he intends to keep touching her whether she likes it or not. Some girls give up and let them do it (even though they don't want it) because, again, they're afraid they won't make money - so they put their backs to the guy and make nasty faces and roll their eyes.

As DJoser pointed out, this crap would be considered assault and would NOT be accepted anywhere but in a stripclub. But because we're strippers we're supposed to deal with it ::)


In my experience, an extras girl works one of three ways:

1. She's verbally and tactily aggressive, stick shifting right from the opening sales pitch. She'll offer something fairly high on the Extras List. By the end of the first encounter you know she's available OTC.

2. She's coy, pressing against you and making verbal suggestions in the sales pitch. During the dance, she makes herself very easy to touch, then says "bad boy" with an impish smile as she brushes hands away after the fact. Later she explains that she has to cover her butt in case a bouncer is watching.

3. She's a nice girl on the first encounter, then says she really likes you and heads into extraland, repeatedly saying, "I don't do this with anyone else." She may also complain about other customers wanting to do whatever, because that seems to add to her credibility. 1. This is clearly a girl who's willing to go the extra mile. Raincoaters should strictly seek her out.

2. I have to question this one. A whole lot of us will act coy and press against or close to a guy during the pitch, and the sheer nature of a lapdance makes us all easy to touch ::) That doesn't mean we want it. Brushing hands away and saying "bad boy" is often used as a way of saying "STOP IT" a little more subtly. Mentioning the bouncer serves the same purpose. I use a very similar approach with most guys who try things on me (the less aggressive ones), and most get the hint - those who don't get no more dance from me.

3. The phrase "likes you" is more accurately: "trusts you're not a cop". Her saying she doesn't do this with anyone else could be her way of indirectly asking for a tip, since no one else supposedly gets the same treatment for the standard dance price.


I'd be interested to know if dancers see other dancers upset because they succumbed to pressure and allowed someone to sexually assault them. I suspect that may well be the case, but I have never seen or heard of anything but active dancer participation. Yes. Seen girls crying or visibly upset later, either in the VIP when her "customer" went to the bathroom or trying to hide in the dressing room or bathroom. Occasionally one will admit she "was stupid" or that she "gets stupid" when she gets drunk. This is not something I've seen often, but enough to know plenty of girls who put up with asshole raincoaters aren't happy about it. I should add that in all but one of these cases, I wasn't around for the action, so she wasn't putting on a show for my benefit ::)


I rarely see an extras girl ask for extra money. This is because most of them are poor saleswomen and feel they have to do it to make money.

Brittany
12-20-2004, 05:30 AM
I'd be interested to know if dancers see other dancers upset because they succumbed to pressure and allowed someone to sexually assault them. I suspect that may well be the case, but I have never seen or heard of anything but active dancer participation.

All the time, all the time. One of the drawbacks of working in Texas. As I've said in my previous post....a lot of these girls have been taken advantage of, and unloved their whole lives, even by their own families, so they are easy to take advantage of. Sad thing is, once it happens a few times, they usually just end up getting "numb" to it, like some sort of molestation victim.
That's why some of us think it's disgusting when customers act this way to dancers. Not only do we see it as a disrespect to us, but we have seen the effects it's had on the ones who let it happen to them.
There might be an extras girl here or there, that's kinda just an escort in training, and really likes that part of the job, but I don't think they're the majority.

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 08:49 AM
LOL - you would be one of the RAREST of rare men who don't like a woman, stripper or otherwise, fondling his genitals upon first approach.

doc-catfish
12-20-2004, 09:25 AM
LOL - you would be one of the RAREST of rare men who don't like a woman, stripper or otherwise, fondling his genitals upon first approach.
Well if another of those rarest of rare men may speak...

Acutually this isn't as uncommon as you may think. We in fact seem to have several guys here on this board who would prefer a dancer start things out a little more subtly than that. We want you gals to be aggressive, but doggone it, a little classiness in being so, never hurt anyone.

If a dancer's first move is to feel me up, that implies to me that she has no confidence in using her other wiles to make me buy a dance from her.

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 09:51 AM
Well I promise, I never feel a guy up on the first "hello", well....except sometimes I do like to smack their ass as we walk by, but that's just cuz I like smackin ass ;D
But you might be surprised how many guys will instantly say yes to a girl who does the weenie fondle routine.

FONDL
12-20-2004, 11:53 AM
I have to agree with Jay and Doc - I have never assaulted a girl in a strip club (or anywhere else for that matter) but I have been assaulated many times by dancers and don't like it at all. In fact I never sit stageside anymore for exactly that reason, I hate having girls grab me and try to do things to me that I don't like. There are clubs that I specifically avoid because of the aggressive girls. When I go into a VIP room the first thing I always do is ask a girl her rules - I don't care what the house rules are, I want to know what her rules are - and I always abide by them. And an awful lot of girls will say they don't have any, which is annoying because it's rarely true. So I guess it works both ways.

Pamela
12-20-2004, 12:48 PM
I just want to chime in here. We are talking about strip clubs! You are going to meet with many many different types of dancers and customers. ALSO, not one person can be molested or taken advantage of unless YOU let it happen. Excuse rape here.

The girls that are "taken advantage of," well they let this happen. Not because they are stupid, look around the clubs! It's because they want the money. And guys looking for higher mileage or an extra dancer, well they know what the want! Strip clubs are the MOST agressive clubs to work or hang in. It's a fact, just check them out.

Things don't just happe to dancers, and a customer keeps coming back for more, i.e. taking advantage of, she is letting it happen. Customers don't take advantage, unless a dancer lets it happen. (typo) We dancers and customers Do have control over what happens to us in strip clubs. You don't like it as a dancer? Kick his ass, call on others, etc. You are getting hit on too hard by a stripper...Well this comes with strip clubs. Can't blame a dancer for trying. Can't blame a customer for trying. Just be. Avoid the extras shit if you don't like it. BUT, look around you are in a strip club. Don't like a chick touching on you, stay out of the clubs. It's going to happen, it's a friendly way of saying hi, and some of us are conditioned to be very friendly.

PS wrote this fast, off to work. This post was just my feelings, not meant for any one person. ;)

Pamela

Brittany
12-20-2004, 04:02 PM
That explains a lot. And what we see as aggressive behaviors by dancers may be the kind of learned sexual behavior "survival skills" that follow longterm molestation.

Keep in mind that this type of agressive behavior and the "survival skills" you've noticed (that's made these girls "numb" and overly sexually aggressive) has often taken place in the strip clubs. Often girls who have never been molested as children, tend to take on these characteristics only after they've worked in strip clubs and been manipulated into thinking that they must make the customers "happy" to make money, and have been comprised into a position (which they would have never experienced had they never worked in the strip club) of being overly sexually agressive and permissive . Hmmmmmmmmm

Brittany
12-20-2004, 04:07 PM
ALSO, not one person can be molested or taken advantage of unless YOU let it happen. Excuse rape here.

The girls that are "taken advantage of," well they let this happen. Not because they are stupid, look around the clubs! It's because they want the money. And guys looking for higher mileage or an extra dancer, well they know what the want! Strip clubs are the MOST agressive clubs to work or hang in. It's a fact, just check them out.
PS wrote this fast, off to work. This post was just my feelings, not meant for any one person. ;)

Pamela
I think this may be over-simplifying the situation a bit and not taking into account the background info that leads to such behavior. Low self esteem, feelings of being unwanted, unloved, being uneducated, etc. And the point is that it's wrong for one human being to take advantage of another's weaknesses.
I used to have a hard time seeing all this as well Pamela, I'm a very independent, strong willed, woman...who's not easily manipulated and has a healthy amount of self esteem. I couldn't understand it why so many others didn't just suck it up and get over it, and how could all these girls be such "whores for little money"?. But when you really start to get to know these types of girls, and pay attention to what's really going on, the whole story comes into play.

Katrine
12-20-2004, 04:20 PM
Well if another of those rarest of rare men may speak...

Acutually this isn't as uncommon as you may think. We in fact seem to have several guys here on this board who would prefer a dancer start things out a little more subtly than that. We want you gals to be aggressive, but doggone it, a little classiness in being so, never hurt anyone.

If a dancer's first move is to feel me up, that implies to me that she has no confidence in using her other wiles to make me buy a dance from her.For Jay, Doc, and FONDL:

How much do you want to bet that these unsavory aggressive girls were not up to the physical standards you require for purchasing laps in a club? What if your ideal goddess came up and did the same?

Just a hunch:-\

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 04:29 PM
I think this may be over-simplifying the situation a bit and not taking into account the background info that leads to such behavior. Low self esteem, feelings of being unwanted, unloved, being uneducated, etc. And the point is that it's wrong for one human being to take advantage of another's weaknesses.
I used to have a hard time seeing all this as well Pamela, I'm a very independent, strong willed, woman...who's not easily manipulated and has a healthy amount of self esteem. I couldn't understand it why so many others didn't just suck it up and get over it, and how could all these girls be such "whores for little money"?. But when you really start to get to know these types of girls, and pay attention to what's really going on, the whole story comes into play.
True. You don't even really have to get know the girls much, just listen to them talking in the dressing room and see alot of their behaviours at work. I don't pay much attention to the other girls but when you're around them day in and day out you see and hear alot just by default.

SportsWriter2
12-20-2004, 04:32 PM
For Jay, Doc, and FONDL:

How much do you want to be that these unsavory aggressive girls were not up to the physical standards you require for purchasing laps in a club? What if your ideal goddess came up and did the same?

Just a hunch:-\ Add me to the list, Kat. Two of them were my ideal types, slender and naturally beautiful. Both later told me their sad reasons. :(

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 06:25 PM
Well, generally speaking, I would call an extra anything that is against the rules AND out of club norms. In some clubs, it's normal to break the rules in certain specifically accepted ways. In other stricter clubs, it's far less common and not accepted among the majority of girls to break the rules. So where boob touching may be an extra in some clubs, it's par for the course in others.

I might also add that extra would be anything out of the realm of the specific dancer's regular menu. In some clubs the range is extremely wide, so what may be extra for one may be standard for another. Obviously this only holds true in a very limited number of clubs.

However I think for the purposes of this thread we're talking more about the hardcore extras: fingering, sucking, fucking...those would be considered extras in all but the most extremely lenient clubs.

yoda57us
12-20-2004, 07:11 PM
About 18 years ago I walked into a seedy club in Boston's now defunct "Combat Zone" for the first time. I sat down, ordered a beer and watched the show onstage. Within a few minutes a woman came over, introduced herself and asked if I wanted to buy her a drink as she began grabbing my dick. I politely refused and she left me for another guy who had walked in behind me. In the space of about 15 minutes this happened with 2 or 3 other women. I finished my beer and left the club. I remember being repulsed, shocked and even a little scared. 18 years later and I've never been back to that club.

Last Saturday night, at one of my favorite clubs, a really hot dancer who has been trying to get my business for about 6 years came over, gave me a holiday hug and started grabbing my dick asking me if tonight was gonna be the night she finally got me into the champagne room.
I laughed, gave her $5 and told her that she still wasn't doing it right. She laughed and walked away.

I'm not sure what conclusion is to be drawn from this. What used to scare the crap out of me now just makes me laugh. Either way, it doesn't get my business.

doc-catfish
12-20-2004, 07:30 PM
For Jay, Doc, and FONDL:

How much do you want to be that these unsavory aggressive girls were not up to the physical standards you require for purchasing laps in a club? What if your ideal goddess came up and did the same?

Just a hunch:-\
No, I don't think that would change things. Its also about that little fantasy that we have hardwired into our heads.

There are "sexualists" and there are "sensualists". I am clearly one of the latter. I enjoy watching a woman strut around in unsensible shoes. I prefer my lap dances sensual and soft. My "porn" collection is comprised mostly of Playboy Newsstand Specials and downloaded images of fitness models. The idea of a dancer going for my trouser snake right away just doesn't fit my fantasy.

NOW, Its not that I would be offended by a lucious little hottie grabbing my package. (Hey, I love a good HJ or hummer as much as the next guy). Its that I have to be slowly and meticulously coaxed to get to the point where I'd be comfortable with a woman being that blunt.

Pamela
12-20-2004, 09:18 PM
^ and i agree highly with this being extras in clubs. But you think a female who is hired on as a dancer in a club knows the rules. I have never danced at a club were they don't tell you the rules. These dancers break the rules out of choice, for more money. One thing about high contact clubs i do know, you will make more money if you go the extra mile. As for customers, they damn well know it's wrong to finger a dancer in a club. I mean we people just can't be that stupid not to know what we are/can get into. It's a choice. If it's not, it's sexual assualt, but you wont hear of that in the clubs, that usually happens after leaving work. Bottom line. We are not talking grocery strores. We are talking strip clubs.

I have heard the stories as well in bathrooms and on the floor. These dancers know what the heck is going on.....Cmon. Allow to be an extra dancer and a customer looking for more will take ya. And you guys, you have to know there is going to be agressive dancers in clubs who will touch without asking.....She hopes for more money!!!

Pamela

Brittany
12-20-2004, 09:28 PM
I dunno, I think that some dancers who do extras (but not the majority from what I've encountered over the years) are kinda just escorts or prostitutes in training and really don't mind being that agressive, and yes, do it just for the money.
Maybe your part of Florida, having been the way it's been for so long now, with the heavy contact bordering on dry-sex, and the accepted extras, has attracted more of the kind of ladies I described above.
And in most clubs, a dancer just coming right out and grabbing a guy's crotch is seen as a bit much. I would think that most men who frequent strip clubs would think so, though there would be the "slob", drunk, or raincoater who would be happy for it.
But I can see where in parts of Florida (and certain clubs in Houston, Austin, and Dallas, for example) guys really can't be all that upset or surprised when this happens to them, since this type of behavior is typical of what the girls there do. (either for the money or because they think they have no other options).
But what this leads to is the "nice" guys not wanting to have a return visit to a club where they feel uncomfortable, meaning that the clientele will end up consisting of mostly the "slobs" and raincoaters, with the occasional out of towner nice guy who doesn't know what he just got himself into.
Not the kind of place where I'd like to be, but to each his own.

Bridgette
12-20-2004, 09:40 PM
Alot of girls hired into clubs either assume or learn through encounters with predator customers that the "rules" they're told by the manger aren't really the "rules".

Brittany
12-20-2004, 10:15 PM
^^ I agree and it's so sad. I also believe it's the cause of all these ordinances that keep popping up everywhere. When managers only say the rules and don't enforce them, LE steps in eventually to try to MAKE them follow the rules. Either that, or they go the way of the San Francisco clubs, which are basically just brothels now, and really don't have much to do with stripping.

Artemis
12-20-2004, 10:30 PM
Yoda, I understand that a lot of girls think that extras girls
cost them money, I'm just not sure that I agree. It seems to me that customers who come in to a club looking for extras aren't going to come in at all if extras aren't available. Isn't that why clubs allow extras in the first place, to attract more customers, guys who otherwise wouldn't come in? In fact I think one could argue that all the girls benefit, because those extra customers are probably tipping the girls on stage, at least some of the time. ::) Some people. I have worked in an extra's club in Portland, and am now at Jiggles in Tualatin (PDX area). I make more money from the SAME customers that go to the other club than the girls that "dance" for them there make. I do air dances with occassional grinding at my club, and the other club offers everything. These men know which club to go to for what they want, and they know which girl is cheapest. They come get their tease with me for a few songs $60, then go pay $50-$100 for sex at that other club.

All the girls do not benefit, because of the kind of customer those actions bring in. We loose money, the atmosphere changes, there begins to be fights between girls, and all hell breaks loose! My feelings are that if a girl chooses to do extras, then she should go to a club where that is allowed, or overlooked. Don't go to the clubs that are air/grind only. I definately didn't appreciate it when a regular customer of mine said he would double what he normally pays me for each dance if I would "accidently" touch his dick area while dancing next time he sees me. I don't do that, and told him he will have to be happy with what I offer. He continued having me dance for him. ;)

tigergirl
12-21-2004, 07:47 AM
Wow,
This thread hits home because I have seen a lot of it in Houston. Here is a question for the dancers to ponder. I've seen a couple of the clubs crack down on the extras, and the inevitable result is that the extras girls just arrange hook ups outside of the club - most prevalent with day shift girls who leave around 7. Girls, does this upset you as much as extras in the clubs? It did for me when I danced for some of the health and loss of income reasons mentioned above.

tampadancer
12-21-2004, 09:05 AM
There is a big difference between "going the extra mile" in a regular job and in stripping.

Staying longer hours or working weekends is a far cry from whoring yourself out.

Bridgette
12-21-2004, 10:28 AM
Wow,
This thread hits home because I have seen a lot of it in Houston. Here is a question for the dancers to ponder. I've seen a couple of the clubs crack down on the extras, and the inevitable result is that the extras girls just arrange hook ups outside of the club - most prevalent with day shift girls who leave around 7. Girls, does this upset you as much as extras in the clubs? It did for me when I danced for some of the health and loss of income reasons mentioned above.
Well, in places like Houston where in-club extras are highly prevalent, as a non-extras dancer I would be a bit upset about it too. Alot of the mileage hounds will sample lower mileage girls either as a test drive or as an appetizer before hooking up with the extras girls. Mass removal of those guys from the club for OTC hookups eliminates alot of business for cleaner dancers in those areas because the mileage guys buy fewer in-club 'samples' and focus more on finding a girl to hook up with later.

However, in places where in-club extras and high mileage aren't so common, I wouldn't give a damn if the mileage hounds were taken OTC by the hooker-dancers because in those places, there are generally enough regular club customers left to allow non-extras girls to make a living. Mileage expectations are generally lower in places where less is allowed or commonly performed and providing clubs cater properly to their market, girls can still make good money providing significantly lower mileage on the whole than in places like Houston.

Thorn
12-21-2004, 11:05 AM
Hopefully dancing in New york will be a little different. /:O
What will be different is that, depending on the club, you won't see it going on. If it happens, it happens in the VIP area.

But as I have said elsewhere, it doesn't really matter what the club advertises. In main stream clubs in NYC, from Scores to Penthouse, if the right dancer at the right time meets the right customer with the right bank, everything and anything can [and does] happen in the privacy of the VIP.

Its rare, and its costly, but it happens.

Thorn
12-21-2004, 11:09 AM
CLUBS seem more concerned about illegal drug activity than they are about illicit sexual activity.
And if you can get club owners to speak candidly with you they will tell you that they don't care about extras being done on premises as long as they are no threat to their licenses. Since they are a threat, then they care to an extent. But they know that the notion that "there is sex in the champange room" is what brings in a goodly percentage of the customers. Not upward of 50% in the high end clubs, but at least 20%. And what club owner do you know that would cut 20% of his potential profits off just to keep everything on the up and up.

Not the owners that I know. And I know most of them around the greater NYC area.

Thorn
12-21-2004, 11:12 AM
Girls who do extras are prostitutes, not dancers. They are exchanging sex for money. There's a huge difference.
While I mayn agree with you, you need to come to terms with the fact that most members of "polite society" don't make that distinction.

Dancers, and even customers for that matter, need to stick together and not willingly knock each other easily, because if others had their way we'd all be walking about with a scarlet letter on our chests.

FONDL
12-21-2004, 11:14 AM
Whether you're talking extras or not, I think it's a logical response to declining incomes for girls to hook up with their customers outside the club, and I expect to see more and more of it happening. For example, when I go to see my regular I end up spending around $300 but only about half of it ends up in her pocket. I'd much rather we met somewhere else, did the same things, I'd pay her maybe $250 but all of it goes to her. It seems to me that if clubs keep raising their cut and hiring more dancers that this is likely to become common.

Note to Katine - I dont want any stranger walking up behind me and sticking her tongue in my ear, regardless of how attractive she might be. I find that highly offensive. I'm with doc-catfish on this one.

Thorn
12-21-2004, 11:29 AM
Realize that the kind of guys that want extras are not the kind of guys a clean dancer wants to make money from, since they will spend most of the dance trying to keep the guy's fingers out of her cookie. That isn't my experience. My experience is that dancers will take their money where they can find it. You are correct in that they might not prefer it, and it may even annoy them, but that isn't the same thing as passing their wallets by, which is what you seem to be suggesting [or did I read that wrong?].



Extras guys also tip less, since they don't give a flying fuck about the stage--their minds are focused on the VIP room. .Also not my experience. Veteran extra seekers use ther tip rail to do their homework. By tipping at the rail in specific ways they gain information on who they figure their best chances are with for extras in the VIP. They also are aware that tipping at the rail often greases the wheels with dancers who do perform extras, and makes them more compliant in the VIP, having already shown your good intent by tipping earlier.


Some women can handle jerking off guys and getting their p*ssies poked all night for 10-20$ a song, but they are not generally 'nice" girls, not by a long stretch... .I tend not to make such classifications. The reason is that it is the same kind of slippery slope that revolves around free speech. You start classifying this as good and this as bad and eventually someone is going to start classifying you, and what you are doing, as bad. At that point you have no one to blame but yourself because you started the trend.

So, since most of "polite society" would lump all of us together as whores and perverts, making no distinction about who is a clean strip-club customer or dancer and who was a dirty strip-club customer or dancer, I try not to help them by casting stones about in my own glass house.

Thorn
12-21-2004, 11:48 AM
Guys, if you want extras and sexual favors, please have the balls to call up an escort or prostitute, or go to a massage parlor, or lingerie modelling place.
Stop trying to feel like a "big man" by manipulating a stripper into doing extras or by breaking the LAW...cause the extras are AGAINST THE LAW ya know, and why should the jobs of us law abiding citizens be put at risk, because you don't have the guts to just be a "john" and call up a prostitute already?

Brittany, you certainly have the right to ask that of S-C customers. I may even agree with you. However, you are being unrealistic. In this very $$$ oriented world we live in if you have someone willing to sell something and someone willing to buy, you aren't going to be able to keep these two people from finding each other and doing business.

If the location of the seller is in your club you will not be able to keep the guys who are looking for that kind of action out. You will be seeing them and having to deal with them. So then the more effective way of handling them isn't to demand they straighten up and fly right. That simply isn't going to happen. What is more productive is that you teach yourself effective means of identifying them and removing them from your potential client pool. This helps you save you energy and increases your profit potential because you aren't wasting time on S-C customers not seeking the kind of dances you are selling.

Bridgette
12-21-2004, 11:59 AM
Whether you're talking extras or not, I think it's a logical response to declining incomes for girls to hook up with their customers outside the club, and I expect to see more and more of it happening. For example, when I go to see my regular I end up spending around $300 but only about half of it ends up in her pocket. I'd much rather we met somewhere else, did the same things, I'd pay her maybe $250 but all of it goes to her. It seems to me that if clubs keep raising their cut and hiring more dancers that this is likely to become common.

Well there is yet another can of worms.

I, and likely most 'clean' dancers, don't have any problem with this scenario in theory. I would happily dance privately for a guy for say, $250/hr where I get to keep the money (save perhaps paying a male friend $50 to hang outside). Problem with that is, most guys will want more than the dance once they're outside the club, and most girls are less than trusting of most guys to bother arranging a private meeting.

Another problem is time. At the clubs there is a higher concentration of payers and more opportunity to make the money than outside, as well as more security and opportunity to screen potential OTC clients. Getting enough good OTC clients who don't require sex to make a comparable living as a dancer would involve much more time than most dancers can or want to spend.

Bridgette
12-21-2004, 12:06 PM
What is more productive is that you teach yourself effective means of identifying them and removing them from your potential client pool. This helps you save you energy and increases your profit potential because you aren't wasting time on S-C customers not seeking the kind of dances you are selling.
Alot of us do this already. For example, most of us know that any guy who grabs your ass the instant you approach or tries to sneak his hand up the inside of your thighs within the first 30 seconds is looking for serious mileage or just a cheapass - or both - and unless we're providing the kind of "dances" he's after it's time to go. With these guys I don't even bother wasting any time on the niceties. I simply walk off instantly and without breaking my stride ;)

bikinigirl04
12-21-2004, 12:18 PM
^ and i agree highly with this being extras in clubs. But you think a female who is hired on as a dancer in a club knows the rules. I have never danced at a club were they don't tell you the rules.
Pamela
for the record i had to find out as i went along what the rules were at lots of clubs! my fault for being too nervous or immature to think to ask before hand. now if im at a new place i ask, but as a newbie you have so much going on in your head you don't think to ask. sometimes they don't tell you. they wait till they see you do something wrong and then they tell you, which is really embarrassing.

yoda57us
12-21-2004, 02:53 PM
I know a couple of dancers who have tried to set up OTC dance only meetings and in all cases the customer expected sex. In one case, the guy refused to pay even though he had agreed to the conditions before the meeting. It makes sense from a strictly logical point of view but I think the majority of men are way too stupid and have egos that are way too large for OTC dances to work well.

There is a "private" dance club currently advertising on Craigs List in the Boston area that invites men to come down for $100 to rent a stripper and a private room. Tips are additional and you can "finish" yourself off while you watch provided you tip the dancer enough not to go "eeeeeewwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!" when you whip out the little guy.

everyone who has tried it posts that the girls are ugly and the place is a scam. Not a glowing review for mass market OTC stripping.

Djoser
12-21-2004, 04:56 PM
My experience is that dancers will take their money where they can find it. You are correct in that they might not prefer it, and it may even annoy them, but that isn't the same thing as passing their wallets by, which is what you seem to be suggesting [or did I read that wrong?].

Yes, you did read it wrong. I said "...guys that want extras are not the kind of guys a clean dancer wants to make money from."

Yes, a lot of dancers will deal with grabby, annoying, insulting customers who might even commit sexual assault by trying to shove their fingers in their panties without permission--if there is no one else in the club. The clean dancer detests this kind of customer, however, and deals with him as little as possible. She will sometimes take his money--being ready, if she has dealt with him before, to restrain his hands. But if a gentleman is available to dance for, guess what? Asshole gets blown off, gentleman gets Royal Treatment.

You should hear what I have heard about grabby guys from the women who have had to put up with it on a slow night, or because the guy acted like a gentleman and turned into an prick in VIP. This is why so many dancers think men are assholes.

This is not a good thing...




Also not my experience. Veteran extra seekers use ther tip rail to do their homework. By tipping at the rail in specific ways they gain information on who they figure their best chances are with for extras in the VIP. They also are aware that tipping at the rail often greases the wheels with dancers who do perform extras, and makes them more compliant in the VIP, having already shown their good intent by tipping earlier.

It's not without exception, no. But in general, a guy who is in a stripclub to watch women dance and get some clean VIPs, will be a better customer at the tip rail than a guy who is there to try to get blown. Some extras-oriented clubs have a small amount of tipping at the rail as part of the negotiating process you are describing, but not nearly the volume you will see in a club where the stage show is more important than getting jerked off in VIP.



I tend not to make such classifications. The reason is that it is the same kind of slippery slope that revolves around free speech. You start classifying this as good and this as bad and eventually someone is going to start classifying you, and what you are doing, as bad. At that point you have no one to blame but yourself because you started the trend.

So, since most of "polite society" would lump all of us together as whores and perverts, making no distinction about who is a clean strip-club customer or dancer and who was a dirty strip-club customer or dancer, I try not to help them by casting stones about in my own glass house.

So it's hypocritical to say that 10$ blowjobs tend to reduce the level of genuine compassion and consideration for the feelings of customers in those dancers who grant them? In an ideal world--for guys who like 10$ blowjobs--this might not be the case. But it sure as shit ain't an ideal world, especially not in stripclubs.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If less guys came into the clubs trying to get girls to blow them for 10$ a song, and less dancers submitted to the pressure to do so, stripclubs would be cleaner, safer, and less notorious places (in the eyes of those who make moral judgements).

There are some very nice girls who will jerk you off for 10$ a song--I have even been friends with a few in one of the clubs I have worked in where this was openly tolerated by management, if not by the other dancers.

But from what I have seen, dancers who do it tend to be more jaded, hardened, and less 'nice', by the usual definition of the word, than those who don't.

I'm sure the judgement of the women who have experience working in the industry, as opposed to experience being a customer who enjoys extras, will verify this. You might accuse them of bias, but cannot escape a more serious accusation of the same, if you go to a stripclub to attain sexual release.

bambiblue
12-21-2004, 05:13 PM
Exactly.

If your clients started demanding that they be allowed to stick their fingers up your ass every hour or so every day you went to work, or else they will give the contract to someone else, and then tried it anyway after being told "no" repeatedly, how would you feel about the other guys at work who let people go ahead and do it for profit?

"Well, Fred over there let me shove a dildo up his ass, why won't you loosen up?"

A truly disgusting example, but that's about how stimulating it is for most dancers, and that's why they dislike extras girls.
Very well put DJoser

At least someone sees it for what it is!!!! There are days when I go to work and wonder if I am at a strip club or a whore house. If a girl wants to be a prostitute let her go stand on the corner somewhere or else work for an escort service....and stop making it that much harder for the rest of us...my 2cents

Jenny
12-21-2004, 06:43 PM
I am evidently the only person in the world who doesn't hate the extras girls, because I don't think they make a bit of difference in my professional life. I have known women who have performed extensive service and still earned less than I do just getting drunk and acting stupid with the customers. Girls who go the extra mile don't give a damn about your life, your work or how hard it is or isn't - they are sort of preoccupied with their own lives and work. Very few girls I know are in a position to bitch about the illegality of other girls because almost all of us (there might be a few nuns amongst us) are neogotiating in murky legal waters. Where I am, it is technically illegal to shake the customer's hand - I still do it, and thankfully nobody has felt the need to arrest me. We are all exchanging sex for money - whether we do full service, or grind, or blow in the guy's ear, we are all getting them off in some sense. It seems pretty cheap to insist that society embrace you, and allow you to stretch limits and explore social boundaries but only so far as you want to go - after that it's too far.