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Wwanderer
12-21-2004, 09:22 PM
We are all exchanging sex for money - whether we do full service, or grind, or blow in the guy's ear, we are all getting them off in some sense. It seems pretty cheap to insist that society embrace you, and allow you to stretch limits and explore social boundaries but only so far as you want to go - after that it's too far.

What she said! Sometimes the truth is really simple and compellingly obvious when someone has the sense to say it directly and honestly. Thanks, Jenny!

Imo, the real problem with "extras" and "extras girls" is that there is often so much disparity in any given club about what behavior is "ok" and what behavior is "over the line" and thus an "extra". The discussion above has amply illustrated that the definition of an "extra" varies tremendously from one club to another, and one geographical area to another. But because dancers and customers all move around a lot from one club to another and one area/place to another, there is really no consensus agreement on what is "ok" and what is not, even at a single club. There is always a mixture...sometimes a very wide mixture.

And this is where Jenny's point strikes home, imo. The vast majority of the world, certainly the vast majority of women in the world, consider any professional stripper, any woman who accepts money to take her clothes off in front of anonymous strangers for their sexual stimulation and entertainment, to be "over the line". They look at all exotic dancers with the same sort of self-righteous indignation with which many strippers look at any dancer significantly more permissive than she is herself. The antagonism towards "estras girls" really looks pretty silly and self-serving when you stop and think about it, imo.

Basically it comes across as saying, in effect, "doing whatever I feel comfortable doing is fine, but doing anything much more permissive than that is unfair to me (in a competitive business sense)" and some would add that it is also "disgusting and immoral" or words to that effect. It is as though each dancer (with such attitudes) believes that her own personal comfort level for selling sexual stimulation (which she feels perfectly entitled to decide for herself) ought to apply as an absolute standard of behavior to all the other dancers who work around her too. If many or most dances take that attitude, it is hardly surprising that it causes a lot of controversy and conflict.

-Ww

Pamela
12-21-2004, 09:55 PM
Bikinigirl i hear ya! But you say you may have been to nervous or immature to ask the rules of the club?

We as adults must know this is not flipping burgers, it's stripping...A tease for money. Upon entering a strip club i would hope a young lady would know if she is going to dance, what may happen. I had a problem with my first lap dance, and i stopped it right there. But this happens all the time to dancers, problems....Say a guy tries to finger us. Expect it to probably happen, and protect yourself. I don't understand how many dancers don't actually see what goes on in strip clubs...Because it's there. This alone should help you put you're guard up. Just watch. It's there. VIP, you bet. Talk around the club, the way customers behave, watching other dancers go a tad far on the floor. It's there. I think if a girl is going to strip honestly she must know that something may happen that she will not like sooner or later to her.

Dunno, maybe it's me. But shit it's all over the states, in every club not just Florida. New dancers look around, check out you're surroundings.

Maybe i don't get this part of stripping. I expected it would happen, not all dancers do i guess. Advice..be customers before dancers, great learning lesson.

RULE: Be alert to you're surroundings while dancing. Stay safe, say NO, and make $$$.

Me i give high mileage, so i am happy, alot of dancers would not do what i do. BUT, i don't break rules of the club, it's allowed, and i make more money because i give more, and a customer feels good. He got his money worth. Again, you have customers who only want an air dance....Fine. To each their own, really, giving more gets you more in my experience in clubs. I tell upfront what i will do (allowed of course) the price, and we can set our price, and give a little more than other dancers.

Sorry off track some, but hell it's all good. Just remember were you are. A strip club. Hang in there newbies, and set you're rules for the customers, so they know what you will not do.

Pamela;)

evan_essence
12-21-2004, 10:38 PM
I think those complaining that dancers don't have a moral or legal justification to complain about extras are missing the point. As I see it, this debate isn't being driven by a set of dancers on their high horses pronouncing legal or moral judgment on other dancers. The judgment being made is about the impact extras have on the kind of customers drawn to the club, which in turn, can impact the income and mental well-being of girls choosing not to do extras. The debate's essentially about the nature of the boundaries drawn and enforced in a given club and the resulting workplace environment.

Although there's some comparison of personal standards going on, it mainly relates to the impact on the nature of the business, and isn't intended as a direct moral or legal judgment about the people. We all want to be in a work environment with boundaries and business practices similar to our own ethics. In that environment, the majority of clients' expectations match what dancers are willing to deliver. That match means the whole transaction goes quickly and smoothly and both sides judge it mutually beneficial.

It's only natural that employees who have made their money under a certain set of workplace rules will get upset when the nature of their workplace changes to their detriment. The foundation of the "extras are bad" argument is not that extras and those who perform them are morally repugnant and criminals and therefore, should never be allowed anywhere. The argument is that certain clubs ought to create an enviornment that consistently disallows that so those who want to make money without it can be productive in an entertainment business without it, and that any employee coming into that environment ought to respect that business model.

-Ev

Jenny
12-21-2004, 11:02 PM
See funnily enough, it does seem like it is about judgement, because one is determining by one's own standards those standards that should exist for others. And some of the commentary on the girls (e.g. that they should go work a street corner) seem very judgemental indeed, and very much in tune with the idea that they are morally repugnant and should not be allowed .... well, they should evidently be allowed on street corners, but you take my point, I'm sure.

My point specifically was that those girls who do "extras" (what constitutes an extra anyway?) are not concerned with what other girls want in a club - they are concerned with their own money (much the same way pretty much everyone else is). As independent contractors, I believe that girls are pretty much entitled to set their own rules, and even if they weren't why would the club set up a model for girls that are apparently (if the nature of the complaints against extras girls are true) less popular and lower earners? Clubs are also not concerned with our money - they are pretty much wrapped up in their own.

Finally, I only mentioned in passing that extras girls have never been a big problem for me. I made the easiest money when the girls danced alone in a room with customers, and nobody knew for sure what they did except them and god (but, you know, the law of averages determines that at least a couple are blowing guys back there). What I learned there was that blaming my bad night on the fact that girls give head in strip clubs was both a fallacy and a waste of time. Guys still bought dances from me, knowing full well that I would not suck them off. They bought multiple dances, and would happily tip me afterwards. And, as we all know, the more a customers spends at one time, the less likely you are to have to do anything aside from sit there. The extras girls are not harming the business - and (I'm sure this will shock some of you) they have ALWAYS been there. There is no "good old days" back before girls were doing extras. If the money is going downhill it is more sensible to blame the internet.

That being said, one thing that does sort of tick me off (and I try to be mature about this) is dancers that dance cheap. Like when they dance half price or 3 for 2 (6 for 5 I can handle with good grace). I don't know why this bothers me (outside of the sheer stupidity - who can possibly think that is a good idea?) because again, I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect my business. And yet. I just want to smack them with a rolled up newspaper.

Brittany
12-21-2004, 11:47 PM
We are all exchanging sex for money - whether we do full service, or grind, or blow in the guy's ear, we are all getting them off in some sense. It seems pretty cheap to insist that society embrace you, and allow you to stretch limits and explore social boundaries but only so far as you want to go - after that it's too far.
But the thing is - these things are against the law to do. No one is saying anything bad about the character of the extras girl, I'm just saying she and the customer need to go somewhere else to do their business. Because what happens when a club or city gets overrun with these girls is ordinances, busts, diminished business, and possibly the clubs being put out of business all together. I just think it's a little selfish (and stupid) for the extras girls and mileage hounds to put the jobs of all the law abiding strippers at risk.

SportsWriter2
12-22-2004, 05:58 AM
The argument is that certain clubs ought to create an enviornment that consistently disallows that so those who want to make money without it can be productive in an entertainment business without it, and that any employee coming into that environment ought to respect that business model. Ev, the real business model is that clubs select independent contractors who pay for the right to sell sexual stimulation in a legal marketplace. The club cares mainly about keeping its license and making money. Dancers seek niches within the marketplace and cast judgments on each other to get a bigger slice of the Benjamin pie. :-\

I like your cartel model, because it might attract girls I'd like more, but guys need an accurate understanding when they walk in the door. It kind of sucks when your nice girl turns out to be someone else's coke whore, but at least you weren't completely surprised. :-\

evan_essence
12-22-2004, 06:28 AM
See funnily enough, it does seem like it is about judgement, because one is determining by one's own standards those standards that should exist for others."One" merely can be asking that the standards set by the club when one was hired be maintained, rather than allowed to slip by neglect or unstated design. We can probably all agree that it's the boss who has the final say, but we won't agree that he's always making the best business decision. If standards change, the nature of the clientele may change and that can impact the hired help. Employees are going to bitch when other employees go beyond what once was the standard.

And some of the commentary on the girls (e.g. that they should go work a street corner) seem very judgemental indeed, and very much in tune with the idea that they are morally repugnant and should not be allowed .... well, they should evidently be allowed on street corners, but you take my point, I'm sure. I still see that type of comment as generally driven by the attitude that there's a venue for that activity and there's also a venue for a lesser level of activity. Let's keep each in its own venue for business reasons. It's not in this thread, I don't think, but I know there have been posts on the site from members suggesting they don't have any problem with legal brothels. I find it hard to believe most intelligent strippers on this forum can't see the irony of judging sex industry workers negatively. On a related note, I happen to appreciate Pamela's comments that she's high contact but she finds the appropriate club to do it in. She's not making a moral judgment on others but she understands how to find a venue that targets the customers she does well with.


My point specifically was that those girls who do "extras" (what constitutes an extra anyway?) are not concerned with what other girls want in a club - they are concerned with their own money (much the same way pretty much everyone else is). In a perfect world, the boss decides that issue based not on what any of the employees want personally, but on the type of audience he's trying to serve. And then he spells it out and enforces it consistently. And employees decide to work there based on those standards being in line with what they're comfortable with. In Bizarro SC World, the employees decide to go beyond the boss' stated standards and the boss looks the other way but you never know exactly how far. I guess you can say the boss' lack of clear standards, or an unstated standard lower than the stated standard, IS his standard, so deal with it, and many of us do that just fine, but part of my dealing is griping that this is potentially creating problems because it's not a good long term business strategy.



As independent contractors, I believe that girls are pretty much entitled to set their own rules, and even if they weren't why would the club set up a model for girls that are apparently (if the nature of the complaints against extras girls are true) less popular and lower earners? Clubs are also not concerned with our money - they are pretty much wrapped up in their own.This has been answered in other threads much better than I will summarize, but basically the feeling is that the clubs do it for short term profit, but that doesn't equate to long term success because it alters the customer base in a negative way. Thus, something for me to bitch about.


Finally, I only mentioned in passing that extras girls have never been a big problem for me. I made the easiest money when the girls danced alone in a room with customers, and nobody knew for sure what they did except them and god (but, you know, the law of averages determines that at least a couple are blowing guys back there). What I learned there was that blaming my bad night on the fact that girls give head in strip clubs was both a fallacy and a waste of time. Guys still bought dances from me, knowing full well that I would not suck them off. They bought multiple dances, and would happily tip me afterwards. And, as we all know, the more a customers spends at one time, the less likely you are to have to do anything aside from sit there. The extras girls are not harming the business - and (I'm sure this will shock some of you) they have ALWAYS been there. There is no "good old days" back before girls were doing extras. If the money is going downhill it is more sensible to blame the internet.That's your experience and that's fine, but not others' experience. Hey, different club situations produce different results. Regardless, it still doesn't mean that blaming extras girls is always a moral judgment. You have your reasons for believing it doesn't hurt business; I've got mine for believing it does. We'll agree to disagree, but please don't automatically assume that everyone judging it negatively is doing so from a moral high horse. It can be a legitimate disagreement about business strategy.


That being said, one thing that does sort of tick me off (and I try to be mature about this) is dancers that dance cheap. Like when they dance half price or 3 for 2 (6 for 5 I can handle with good grace). I don't know why this bothers me (outside of the sheer stupidity - who can possibly think that is a good idea?) because again, I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect my business. And yet. I just want to smack them with a rolled up newspaper.Trust your intuition. I'll bet you're sensing that the practice turns a quick buck for others in the short run, but is a bad long term strategy because it lowers the perceived value of the service. If you're miffed at this, I don't understand why you're not miffed at the ones offering extras for the same price as you're charging for no extras. That also will lower the perceived value of the no-extra service. No moral judgment involved here, just business. Those half-price people should go out on the street corner, doncha think? ;)

evan_essence
12-22-2004, 07:34 AM
Ev, the real business model is that clubs select independent contractors who pay for the right to sell sexual stimulation in a legal marketplace. The club cares mainly about keeping its license and making money. Dancers seek niches within the marketplace and cast judgments on each other to get a bigger slice of the Benjamin pie. :-\

I like your cartel model, because it might attract girls I'd like more, but guys need an accurate understanding when they walk in the door. It kind of sucks when your nice girl turns out to be someone else's coke whore, but at least you weren't completely surprised. :-\No one's truly an independent contractor in a SC under any reasonable interpretation of the law; that's a ruse by clubs who don't want to pay for employees even though the help is treated like employees. But fine, let's go that route. IC's work off a contract that defines what's expected of them. So if following the law is one of those expectations, my bitching that I'm following the contract but others who aren't following it are hurting my earnings potential isn't a moral judgment; it's still a business gripe. And I'm merely defending my gripe about extras as having business validity, not believing my gripe is actually gonna change squat nor is it probably worth this much time writing since this whole topic has been debated from here to eternity before, but I get in this over-analytical mode sometimes. Emphasis on anal.

-Ev

Wwanderer
12-22-2004, 07:38 AM
I think those complaining that dancers don't have a moral or legal justification to complain about extras are missing the point. As I see it, this debate isn't being driven by a set of dancers on their high horses pronouncing legal or moral judgment on other dancers. The judgment being made is about the impact extras have on the kind of customers drawn to the club, which in turn, can impact the income and mental well-being of girls choosing not to do extras. Yes and no, imo. I think that it is easy to find plenty of examples of both in this thread and the many others concerning the same and similar topics. For many dancers it is a matter of morals/ethics/values and for lots of others it is "merely" a matter of working environment and uniform business practices. However, I am not sure the distinction is all that significant in a sense. In the end, it still comes down to whether the individual dancer makes her own decisions or some external authority (society at large, LE, club management, the opinions of the other dancers in the club) makes them for her.

-Ww

Wwanderer
12-22-2004, 08:00 AM
We all want to be in a work environment with boundaries and business practices similar to our own ethics. In that environment, the majority of clients' expectations match what dancers are willing to deliver. That match means the whole transaction goes quickly and smoothly and both sides judge it mutually beneficial. I completely agree with this; it is basically the same point I made in my post-before-last in this thread. The problem arises because there is so much variation from club to club and place to place in the industry and because both dancers and customers (and management to some extent) move around so much. There really is nothing close to a single consensus about "boundaries and business practices" in most clubs.

-Ww

Thorn
12-22-2004, 09:35 AM
Alot of us do this already. For example, most of us know that any guy who grabs your ass the instant you approach or tries to sneak his hand up the inside of your thighs within the first 30 seconds is looking for serious mileage or just a cheapass - or both - and unless we're providing the kind of "dances" he's after it's time to go. With these guys I don't even bother wasting any time on the niceties. I simply walk off instantly and without breaking my stride ;)
Nothing wrong with that at all. It makes perfect business sense. And is simply the crux of what I have been saying elsewhere [and getting no little heat for either] ;D

Thorn
12-22-2004, 10:04 AM
Yes, you did read it wrong. I said "...guys that want extras are not the kind of guys a clean dancer wants to make money from."
But it doesn't seem so from what you said here:


Yes, a lot of dancers will deal with grabby, annoying, insulting customers who might even commit sexual assault by trying to shove their fingers in their panties without permission--if there is no one else in the club. .
That is pretty much exactly what I was infering. That when they have to they deal with who is in the club, because not to do so is not to make any money. If there are gentleman and assholes abounding then they will seek out the gentleman. If the assholes have the floor then the assholes are going to get at least some attention. Either that or its going to be a very slow day.



You should hear what I have heard about grabby guys from the women who have had to put up with it on a slow night, or because the guy acted like a gentleman and turned into an prick in VIP. This is why so many dancers think men are assholes.

This is not a good thing....
What makes you think I haven't? ;D

Yes, its been years since I was a bouncer in strip-clubs, but I hardly think the chatter is much different now then it was then.



But in general, a guy who is in a stripclub to watch women dance and get some clean VIPs, will be a better customer at the tip rail than a guy who is there to try to get blown.
You see, as the extra business has become more and more entrenched in main stream clubs the extra seeking customers have had to become more polished and sophisticated in their approaches. They are not only seeking dancers who provide extras, but competing with other customers looking to divide the talents of the better of them among themselves. This has lead to extra seeking customers using the tip rail better, and spreading 'good faith' money around to get the attention of the dancers that, either by their intuition or the dancer's reputation, they preceive give out with the best goodies. Those are my observations but we can agree to disagree on this.



If less guys came into the clubs trying to get girls to blow them for 10$ a song, and less dancers submitted to the pressure to do so, stripclubs would be cleaner, safer, and less notorious places (in the eyes of those who make moral judgements).

There are some very nice girls who will jerk you off for 10$ a song--I have even been friends with a few in one of the clubs I have worked in where this was openly tolerated by management, if not by the other dancers.

But from what I have seen, dancers who do it tend to be more jaded, hardened, and less 'nice', by the usual definition of the word, than those who don't.

I'm sure the judgement of the women who have experience working in the industry, as opposed to experience being a customer who enjoys extras, will verify this. You might accuse them of bias, but cannot escape a more serious accusation of the same, if you go to a stripclub to attain sexual release.
Its not that I disagree with you. Its just that you paint a picture where right is right for right's sake and that isn't the way the world works. I deal in a real world where it isn't about right and wrong as much as what works and what doesn't. Its a very pragmatic world, I will grant you. I would prefer the ideal world you describe, but I have found that its unlikely to ever exist.

I don't accuse the dancers you discribe as being biased at all. I point out to them that they are wasting their time railing against something they have little power to influence or change by trying to effect the consumer. The only, and I do mean only way to bring about change of the type they want is to bring heat down upon the girls who provide extras either though management in the clubs or "the man".

The managers aren't going to be much help because, frankly, they don't care if some of the dancers in the clubs are doling out extras. The only time it matters to them is if their license becomes an issue. Other then that they like the extra cash it pulls in at the bar. And the attention of the establishment is the last thing the "good" strippers should want, because "the man" isn't very discriminating. The establishment types will bring down heat not just on the "dirty" dancers but on all dancers, the "good" ones included.

So it becomes what will work in the real world, and we get back to what I have been saying from the outset.

Thorn
12-22-2004, 10:15 AM
I am evidently the only person in the world who doesn't hate the extras girls, because I don't think they make a bit of difference in my professional life. I have known women who have performed extensive service and still earned less than I do just getting drunk and acting stupid with the customers. Girls who go the extra mile don't give a damn about your life, your work or how hard it is or isn't - they are sort of preoccupied with their own lives and work. Very few girls I know are in a position to bitch about the illegality of other girls because almost all of us (there might be a few nuns amongst us) are neogotiating in murky legal waters. Where I am, it is technically illegal to shake the customer's hand - I still do it, and thankfully nobody has felt the need to arrest me. We are all exchanging sex for money - whether we do full service, or grind, or blow in the guy's ear, we are all getting them off in some sense. It seems pretty cheap to insist that society embrace you, and allow you to stretch limits and explore social boundaries but only so far as you want to go - after that it's too far.
Brava! Brava!

This is exactly what I am talking about.

Here is a dancer who has her limits. Lives within them. Makes her money and does so knowing that she has to work around whatever obstacles her enviorment place in front of her. See sees her work place for what it is, both the pluses and the minuses, and finds ways to make it work for her.

She doesn't condemn her fellow sex workers or bitch about how its all gone wrong. She just sticks to her guns, works her nitch of the industry and makes her bank. As the scene changes she will probably always do well and without changing her bounderies because she will be able to adjust, adapt and overcome.

How much better would all dancers be off if they did the same.

Brava pravisima!

Bridgette
12-22-2004, 10:25 AM
For fuck's sake people. None of us ultimately give a damn whether society approves of us lapdancing and taking clothes off for money. The only reason we complain about girls doing extras in the clubs is it makes it harder for us to make money. Y'all are trying to place waaaaaay too much morality in this when the only issue here is business and money. When girls go beyond laws, rules and accepted club standards IN the club, other girls who are trying to operate WITHIN the set laws rules and standards lose money. THAT'S ALL WE CARE ABOUT. WE COULDN'T CARE LESS WHAT ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO DO WITH THEIR BODIES OR HOW THEY WANT TO CONDUCT BUSINESS, AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT DOING IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT NEGATIVELY AFFECTS THE REST OF US. And if anyone thinks what you do in a club doesn't affect everyone else, you're sorely mistaken.

Lastly I think we all realize that actually asking for this to happen is simply asking too much. It's not gonna happen in the real world so we all have to find our market and do the best we can. None of us are hardly naive enough to think any extras girl will change her way of doing business, or that any manager who allows it will suddenly stop. We're just discussing what we'd LIKE to happen. That's partly what forums like this are for.

Thorn
12-22-2004, 10:31 AM
See funnily enough, it does seem like it is about judgement, because one is determining by one's own standards those standards that should exist for others. And some of the commentary on the girls (e.g. that they should go work a street corner) seem very judgemental indeed, and very much in tune with the idea that they are morally repugnant and should not be allowed .... well, they should evidently be allowed on street corners, but you take my point, I'm sure.

My point specifically was that those girls who do "extras" (what constitutes an extra anyway?) are not concerned with what other girls want in a club - they are concerned with their own money (much the same way pretty much everyone else is). As independent contractors, I believe that girls are pretty much entitled to set their own rules, and even if they weren't why would the club set up a model for girls that are apparently (if the nature of the complaints against extras girls are true) less popular and lower earners? Clubs are also not concerned with our money - they are pretty much wrapped up in their own.

Finally, I only mentioned in passing that extras girls have never been a big problem for me. I made the easiest money when the girls danced alone in a room with customers, and nobody knew for sure what they did except them and god (but, you know, the law of averages determines that at least a couple are blowing guys back there). What I learned there was that blaming my bad night on the fact that girls give head in strip clubs was both a fallacy and a waste of time. Guys still bought dances from me, knowing full well that I would not suck them off. They bought multiple dances, and would happily tip me afterwards. And, as we all know, the more a customers spends at one time, the less likely you are to have to do anything aside from sit there. The extras girls are not harming the business - and (I'm sure this will shock some of you) they have ALWAYS been there. There is no "good old days" back before girls were doing extras. If the money is going downhill it is more sensible to blame the internet.

That being said, one thing that does sort of tick me off (and I try to be mature about this) is dancers that dance cheap. Like when they dance half price or 3 for 2 (6 for 5 I can handle with good grace). I don't know why this bothers me (outside of the sheer stupidity - who can possibly think that is a good idea?) because again, I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect my business. And yet. I just want to smack them with a rolled up newspaper.


Gawd Damn! There is nothing sexier in the world then an intelligent woman. Brains beat out tits any day of the week.

Please tell me you dance in the NYC metro area so I can come and get some dances from you. I don't care that you don't do extras. You can give me what level it is that you do and turn me on by talking common sense and how to make things work in the real world.

I love it!

Thorn
12-22-2004, 10:45 AM
"In a perfect world, the boss decides that issue based not on what any of the employees want personally, but on the type of audience he's trying to serve. And then he spells it out and enforces it consistently. And employees decide to work there based on those standards being in line with what they're comfortable with. In Bizarro SC World, the employees decide to go beyond the boss' stated standards and the boss looks the other way but you never know exactly how far. I guess you can say the boss' lack of clear standards, or an unstated standard lower than the stated standard, IS his standard, so deal with it, and many of us do that just fine, but part of my dealing is griping that this is potentially creating problems because it's not a good long term business strategy.

And I know people are going to bitch because I am running a string of posts again but there are just so many good points being made that are worthy of dedicated response.

EE, you have hit the nail so directly on the head that its spinning.

It is "Bizarro SC World" and the long term prospects of a situation where the standards become more and more relaxed is going to, eventually, lead to a public snap back [that, or the public finally realizes that these practices have to become legalized and zoned into red light districts, taxed appropriately so that any social ills created by the practice gets paid for by those participating, but that's another story and so not likely to ever take place in this country] that will harm the industry.

Its all about the club owners, but the club owners all have their heads up their collective asses [almost to a man] and are only thinking short term. So the dancers have to learn that the enviorment isn't going to become tighter, but is apt to get progressively more tolerant of extras. And then we go back into what I have been saying about being able to adapt, work your nitch, etc, etc, etc.

I'm not saying it should be condoned. I am not saying dancers that have been discribed as "good" dancers shouldn't be concerned. I am saying that, barring a major change in attitude on the part of the club owners [which I just don't see happening] the only working solution for the non-extra providing dancer is to adapt.

Thorn
12-22-2004, 10:59 AM
Lastly I think we all realize that actually asking for this to happen is simply asking too much. It's not gonna happen in the real world so we all have to find our market and do the best we can. None of us are hardly naive enough to think any extras girl will change her way of doing business, or that any manager who allows it will suddenly stop. We're just discussing what we'd LIKE to happen. That's partly what forums like this are for.[scratching head]

Well, if we are discussing what we would like to have happen I think all of the various levels should have their own places of business and lap dancing should be lap dancing and selling penetration should be just that, or cross over places where both take place should be labled as such, etc.

Ideally all such places would be legalized and exist in red light districts where people who would be offended by such behavior wouldn't have to go. Those that wanted to participate through work and purchase of adult entertainment would know where to find what they want and would have a clean, safe, place to conduct their business.

In a perfect world this would all take place under the umbrella of a government that would place taxes and fees on the activities sold and licensed to generate revenue to pay for any social ills that came about from said activities [there being no good reason that people not partaking should have to foot the bill].

That's in a perfect world. But I don't really know what it resolves to yak about it for too long. I think energies are better spent in talking about the real world and how to make things work within its perimeters. But what do I know... I'm just a pragmatist. ;D

[Though I fully admit that having a place to blow off steam theraputically is a good thing and I understand your need to do so]

Thorn
12-22-2004, 11:02 AM
Apologies for the response string. Blame it on good posts worth responding to.

yoda57us
12-22-2004, 11:06 AM
For fuck's sake people. None of us ultimately give a damn whether society approves of us lapdancing and taking clothes off for money. The only reason we complain about girls doing extras in the clubs is it makes it harder for us to make money. Y'all are trying to place waaaaaay too much morality in this when the only issue here is business and money. When girls go beyond laws, rules and accepted club standards IN the club, other girls who are trying to operate WITHIN the set laws rules and standards lose money. THAT'S ALL WE CARE ABOUT. WE COULDN'T CARE LESS WHAT ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO DO WITH THEIR BODIES OR HOW THEY WANT TO CONDUCT BUSINESS, AS LONG AS THEY'RE NOT DOING IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT NEGATIVELY AFFECTS THE REST OF US. And if anyone thinks what you do in a club doesn't affect everyone else, you're sorely mistaken.

Exactly. Morality is an individual decision. Both dancers and customers make a decision about their own morality everytime they walk through the doors of a sc-weather its for work or play. What sucks is when a dancer has to question her own limits for fear of not being able to make a living within her personal comfort zone.
I've never met a dancer who wasn't primarily in it for the money. Customers don't care about your morals when they are trying to deternine how much mileage they are going to get on a lapdance. Dancers don't worry about the morality of the married guy who is emptying his wallet so you will grind your ass in his lap. These morality decisions are made before we walk in. After that it's all about getting what we came for.

Bridgette
12-22-2004, 11:16 AM
Thorn, when you've got 3 LOOOOOOOOOONG posts to everyone else's ONE, I think it's more a matter of overabundance rather than 'good posts'. ;)

FONDL
12-22-2004, 01:13 PM
I must say, I wasn't able to wade through all of Wade's posts. But one thing jumped out at me that I have to agree with, and that is that "extras" aren't anything new. I've been going to clubs for 40 years and if anything I think most clubs are cleaner today than they used to be because they have managed to attract so many higher class ladies. Which is why so many of you have this idea that "extras" are new, because to you they are. It wasn't that long ago that every older city had an XXX area of clubs that were basically brothels. But Boston closed it's Combat Zone. NYC leaned up Times Square. About the only one left that I know of is Baltimore's Block. The industry in many areas has become highly sanitized. Which might account for the slower business environment we hear about.

Bridgette
12-22-2004, 03:03 PM
Fondl, I don't think most of us really think extras are anything new. It's just done differently. What IS new, for alot of us who've been dancing several years at least, is extras in the "high class" places. A few years ago it was easier to find nice clubs to work in profitably, where extras were practically nonexistent or at least not everlooked by mgmt, and where for the most part customers didn't expect or seek them out en mass.

yoda57us
12-22-2004, 05:50 PM
The amazing thing about the Combat Zone is that there were really no opportunities for extras inside the clubs. Back then there were no PD areas. In fact, there where no pd's at all. In the old combat zone the girls made their money from stage tips and selling drinks, that is, having the customers buy them overpriced drinks on which they made a commission.
Some women offered sex outside of the club and some clubs where very lenient about letting girls leave during a shift and return but most of the sex in the combat zone was provided by the streetwalkers who constantly worked the area. The mystique of the combat zone was based largely pre-existing stereotypes about strip clubs and what you could find in one.

Brittany
12-23-2004, 12:38 AM
Thorn, when you've got 3 LOOOOOOOOOONG posts to everyone else's ONE, I think it's more a matter of overabundance rather than 'good posts'. ;) ROFLMAO...apparently he's not gonna be happy until he talks us into thinking it's okay if we decide to give him a BJ or FS if we ever meet him in a club....lol. Perhaps the overabundance of posts is his way of wearing us down? lol. Do you think he would stop if we said yes? lol.
Okay, Okay, Thorn........please, please...pretty please....no more marathon posts! I can't take it anymore! I give!!!!....well sorta.....I can't bring myself to even begin to entertain the thought of doing any "extras", so how about we comprimise and you let me help you find an escort to call next time you want a "dancer"? I believe ASPD.net could help you, and I bet if you looked in the yellow pages you'd find some agencies....
And thorn, we've already found many, many, ways of working and remaining profitable around the extras girls....otherwise we would have hung up the heels long ago....

Octobergirl
12-23-2004, 01:06 AM
http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/tablesnatpro.htm


The website for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, good information to have when deciding on performing or receiving extras.

evan_essence
12-23-2004, 05:31 AM
Well, I've listened to all the counterpoints and I'm hereby repentant. I've been passing moral judgments from my temple on high. Advocating big Scarlet letters for the extras girls. And not only that, but I'm not being pragmatic enough in how I view my work! Just a silly girl wasting her time daydreaming because it's not going to change from my talking about it, so I should adapt. Thought I had to a certain extent but I guess I really need to get down on all fours and suck like a heavy duty ShopVac. I'm now sure I can't adapt and bitch at the same time, btw. It's one or the other, sorta like walking and chewing gum. For a stripper, the two don't mix.

I also realize the only value in complaining in this forum is "therapeutic." As a girl, I need that outlet for my fragile emotions, being on the rag once a month and all. I've perished the thought that we might actually cause some dancers to think about the issue and approach work with a little more drive and self-confidence to be a success without extras because it might make sense to them from a ...oh, let's say... "pragmatic way over the long term." Nope, impacting change by discussion, what an urban myth! Truth is, I've got to withdraw from the dis-da-bitch fest this thread is perpetuating.

(Sorry, but my sarcastic self takes over sometimes. :seesaw: )

-Ev

MojoJojo
12-23-2004, 06:09 AM
The issue of personal integrity and business standards exists in all industries. The sales people on a car lot....in an appliance store...in a strip club.... athletes who take steroids.... and the ongoing issue that if you do not conform, then you either cannot compete....or you just need to accept that you will never reach the same level as the others do.

....so you're not alone.

Djoser
12-23-2004, 09:11 AM
Well, I've listened to all the counterpoints and I'm hereby repentant. I've been passing moral judgments from my temple on high. Advocating big Scarlet letters for the extras girls. And not only that, but I'm not being pragmatic enough in how I view my work! Just a silly girl wasting her time daydreaming because it's not going to change from my talking about it, so I should adapt. Thought I had to a certain extent but I guess I really need to get down on all fours and suck like a heavy duty ShopVac.


Yeah, you're right, Ev...

And I need to shut up here, and start saying on the mike that "You know, guys, VIP stands for Very Intense Puuuuuusssssssssiiiee!!!!!!", like the guy at the jack shack I know does.

Why have I been wasting my time being sympathetic with dancers who whine and bitch about guys shoving their grubby hands into their panties? Hey, if they didn't secretly love it, why would they dance for those guys, right? And they ought to realize that going into VIP means that every guy has the right to penetrate every orifice as much as he wants, otherwise the dancer is guilty of lying and misleading the poor customer to steal his money.



I also realize the only value in complaining in this forum is "therapeutic." As a girl, I need that outlet for my fragile emotions, being on the rag once a month and all. I've perished the thought that we might actually cause some dancers to think about the issue and approach work with a little more drive and self-confidence to be a success without extras because it might make sense to them from a ...oh, let's say... "pragmatic way over the long term."

Sorry, but you are wrong there, Ev...this forum exists so that guys who know far more about the real world and the business of dancing than any dancer or DJ could ever manage, can straighten us out about our misconceptions and delusions.

We aren't intelligent or circumspect enough to realize that our logic is flawed by what we are expecting out of the stripclub experience...

stant
12-23-2004, 09:33 AM
And I need to shut up here, and start saying on the mike that "You know, guys, VIP stands for ...
I've thought a bit about what "extras" means for various jobs:

Cop: Taking bribes. Overlooking a ticket for cash.

Teacher: Bribes for grades: Increasing a grade for money.

Judge: bribes for anything

DJ at a radio station: playing a song on the air for cash

Doctor: writing a script without medical need

gypsy_girlchild
12-23-2004, 09:36 AM
LOL.... DJoser, I love your posts!!!!
And you are so right about men that don't dance and have never danced, but oh, they've dated a dancer and know a lot of dancers so they ALL about dancing..... They can even give advice and they know how it works, we're only there to pick their pockets and steal their wallets, and lap dances? Forget 'em, their just a ploy to trick them into spending hard earned money on a half-assed dance.

SportsWriter2
12-23-2004, 10:06 AM
This one's for you, Ev. Don't give up.

Providence clubs are nude and high contact with alcohol and lots of extras. Fifteen minutes north of Providence, in Woonsocket, there's a topless club called K2U Southside. It's a nice neighborhood bar with good drink prices. Downstairs they have the most comfortable lapdance area I've ever seen.

The manager treats the dancers like human beings. The DJ precedes every dancer name with "Lady." The bartenders know all the regulars and what they like. The club attracts quality dancers who want no part of Providence. One girl with no pictures on the website is the most beautiful dancer in Rhode Island.

The owner is floating a trial balloon about going nude. The dancers don't want it. The regulars don't want it. They're posting on the SCL K2U site that they love the club just the way it is now. No significant extras, almost no drugs, and an awesome Cheers factor. It's my favorite club and what I think a strip club should be. :)

Happy holidays.

Thorn
12-23-2004, 11:10 AM
I must say, I wasn't able to wade through all of Wade's posts. But one thing jumped out at me that I have to agree with, and that is that "extras" aren't anything new. I've been going to clubs for 40 years and if anything I think most clubs are cleaner today than they used to be because they have managed to attract so many higher class ladies. Which is why so many of you have this idea that "extras" are new, because to you they are. It wasn't that long ago that every older city had an XXX area of clubs that were basically brothels. But Boston closed it's Combat Zone. NYC leaned up Times Square. About the only one left that I know of is Baltimore's Block. The industry in many areas has become highly sanitized. Which might account for the slower business environment we hear about.
True enough FONDL.

I wonder what some would make of the factual knowledge that lap dancing in the NYC area was born out of the "Mardi Gras" nights that use to take place at the old 'Melody Burlesque' back in the 70's. Later to become famous 'Harmony' of Church St and later of 22nd St.

Lap dances were done all over the place, even before they were called "lap dances". And extras were availabe, both on campus and off, by some of the women who worked there.

Its just always been the way it was.

Again, I am NOT advocating extras. I am simply saying they are a fact of life and as such need to be dealt with.

FONDL
12-23-2004, 11:40 AM
I don't advocate extras either and I fully understand why the "nice" girls are turned off by them. My only purpose in posting this thread was to point out that extras have always existed, they aren't anything new, and that sluts have always been around. And I disagree with Bridgette, it's not extras in nice places that is new, it's the nice places themselves that are. It used to be that all almost clubs were dives and almost all dancers were sluts. The growth of the nice clubs and influx of nice dancers is what is new (and I applaud the change.) But it's obvious that a lot of the customers haven't recognized the change and are still playing by the old rules. I'm not trying to make excuses for them, I'm only trying to point out what is. But I guess I should stop trying - since I've never danced and have only gone to clubs for 40 years all over the country and have several friends who are ex-dancers, I obviously don't know what I'm talking about and nobody want to hear my opinion. I thought the whole purpose of "Customer Conversation" on this site was so you ladies and other SC employees could hear our opinions. Guess I misunderstood.

Wwanderer
12-23-2004, 12:50 PM
I just started a new thread entitled "Strip Clubs as Special Ethical Arenas" in this forum. I originally intended to make the initial post of that thread in this one because it is quite relevant to the discussion here, imo. However, I ended up deciding to put it in its own thread because 1) I think it is substantially more general than just the "extras" context, and 2) I have the impression that this thread is drifting in the direction of a too large flaming-to-listening ratio.

Anyway, if you are following this thread, you might want to have a look at the "Strip Clubs as Special Ethical Arenas" one, too.

-Ww

yoda57us
12-23-2004, 12:53 PM
Hmmmmmm.....I think maybe this thread is running out of steam. The next step after re-stating your opinion six times and still not changing anyone’s mind is usually to act insulted, take your ball, and go home.:fight:

Bridgette
12-23-2004, 01:56 PM
I disagree with Bridgette, it's not extras in nice places that is new, it's the nice places themselves that are. Depends on your definition of new. I was talking about new to US, who started in the nice places when nice places were relatively new, and in-club extras in those places were way less prevalent, or even unheard of. Nice places may be new compared to 40 years ago, but considering they've held a sizable chunk of the market for 10+ years, I wouldn't consider that new anymore either. Given the history of the nice places, rampant in-club extras in them definitely is new.

Also keep in mind nice places in other areas have been around longer than they have in our area. They're still a little bit of a novelty here ;)

>> Added:
Oh yeah, Fondl, I could be wrong but I don't think you're the one people are referring to re: the know-it-all attitude. I felt this whole discussion was quite civil until a certain other poster with a bad case of the know-it-alls inundated us with spew ;)

On that note, OMG, once again I love the ignore feature! I've gone back through the last couple pages and this thread reads so much better ;D

evan_essence
12-24-2004, 05:05 AM
http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/tablesnatpro.htm
The website for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, good information to have when deciding on performing or receiving extras.Thanks for inserting that point, which of course, most everyone knows but many fail to consider seriously enough.



But I guess I should stop trying ... I obviously don't know what I'm talking about and nobody want to hear my opinion. I thought the whole purpose of "Customer Conversation" on this site was so you ladies and other SC employees could hear our opinions. Guess I misunderstood.Fondl, you're doing fine. No one's really that far off course, IMHO. Lots of good points being made and lovingly belabored. Don't sweat a little emotional response in the process. (Logic is so overrated.) I'll take my Strattera (http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2004/ANS01335.html) :hyper: and be fine. You just go on being the gentleman that your posts show you to be.

-Ev

Madcap
12-24-2004, 05:35 AM
This thread is hilarious...

Thorn
12-24-2004, 07:40 AM
Ww, we've known each other for some time now and I say, most respectfully, that Fondl is on the right track here with his comments.

Mod note. Rest of posting edited out because:

1. It had nothing to do with the topic - or the section, for that matter.
2. It was more inflammatory than helpful.

I have saved the edited-out language in case the poster wishes to appeal to a higher authority.

Thorn
12-24-2004, 07:46 AM
Yeah, you're right, Ev...

And I need to shut up here, and start saying on the mike that "You know, guys, VIP stands for Very Intense Puuuuuusssssssssiiiee!!!!!!", like the guy at the jack shack I know does.
Oh Puullllesse!

People say things in concise language and you just take it and go where ever you want with it.

Even though I, Fondl, and others have repeated over and over again that no one is advocating extras being sold in strip-clubs and no one is advocating customers going to strip-clubs to seek same, you make it sound like that is exactly what is being advocated.

All that is being said is that market forces are in play and if you truly want to make your money, your way, you have to figure out ways to work around them.

Its economics 101. Its nothing new. It shouldn't be seen as negative, or recriminating, of having moderators deleting our posts, and its not anything that should get Fondl, myself, or anyone else dumped on. [geeze]

Thorn
12-24-2004, 08:07 AM
... but considering they've held a sizable chunk of the market for 10+ years, I wouldn't consider that new anymore either. Given the history of the nice places, rampant in-club extras in them definitely is new.

Bridgette, you just took what Fondl said and trivilized it, then discounted it.

What he said was very plain, and very accurate.

The majority of S-C's, at the conception of the notion of what a S-C was, things that you refer to as extras took place. The same holds true for now.

So you are incorrect when you say "a sizeable chunk of the market for 10+ years" is extra free. That simply isn't the case.

What is true is that in your corner of the stripping world, which represents only a fraction of what goes on in the industry, extras have existed but have only recently come out of the closet, so to speak, pushing itself into everyone's face in the process. Making of itself a nuisance at the least, and possible finacial burden at the most, to dancers who are use to playing it straight.

Look, none of us know each other so how do you know Fondl is simply a "custy" with no background that lends itself to an understanding of how strip-clubs work? Or I for that matter. You don't have to be a dancer to understand strip-clubs. And its strip-clubs and what goes on in them we are talking about, not dancing.

Now please don't get huffy. I am not shooting you down. I am speaking to you the way I would any adult I respected who made a comment in a dialog I am involved in that came into conflict with my personal knowledge of the material being discussed. In other words, giving you the respect of speaking plainly to you, as an equal. If you want me to "be nice" and treat you like a "grrl" then say so. I figure you deserve better.

yoda57us
12-24-2004, 08:42 AM
Sorry but I don't see dissagreeing as trivializing. Obviously we all think we are right here but we are dealing with opinions and nothing more. There are no statistics on when the first extra was performed, when the first upscale GC opened, the ratio of good girls to bad girls or anything else to do with strip clubs for that matter.

The failure of another poster to see things your way does not mean they are hiding from reality, it just means they don't agree with you.

FONDL
12-24-2004, 10:31 AM
Yoda, once again I agree with you (damn, I have to stop saying that all the time.) For the record, I always hope that people will disagree with things that I say, that's the only way I can learn anything, and it's why I post in the first place. And yes I do change my mind when people present a persuasive argument. I can't think of anything more boring than a discussion where averybody agrees with everyone else. But I do get annoyed when someone who thinks they know it all attacks others personally - it dramatically weakens their argument among other things. It also gets them placed on my "do not read" list.

Jenny
12-24-2004, 11:22 AM
Well, I've listened to all the counterpoints and I'm hereby repentant. I've been passing moral judgments from my temple on high. Advocating big Scarlet letters for the extras girls. And not only that, but I'm not being pragmatic enough in how I view my work! Just a silly girl wasting her time daydreaming because it's not going to change from my talking about it, so I should adapt.
-Ev
Well, good. Next time you go to work, we all expect hear about blowjobs galore!;D
I tried to reply in detail to another post, but after two attempts my wrists got tired from all the typing. So I just have to settle for a smiley.

Thorn
12-24-2004, 04:11 PM
Ww, we've known each other for some time now and I say, most respectfully, that Fondl is on the right track here with his comments.

Mod note. Rest of posting edited out because:

1. It had nothing to do with the topic - or the section, for that matter.
2. It was more inflammatory than helpful.

I have saved the edited-out language in case the poster wishes to appeal to a higher authority.
Thanks for the option of appeal. That is truly appreciated. But while I could go to Pryce and bellyache, in the final analysis there is nothing that you deleted that is important enough to me to make that kind of statement. I think you moderated in a fair manner and don't believe you to have anything but beneficial intent. [Not suggesting that my opinion there though should be important to anyone, yourself included] Unlike [self-editing additional commentary regarding other stuff, in other places, at other times]

bambiblue
12-24-2004, 08:09 PM
I've always done well with being a medium and primarily one-way contact dancer. Yes, I'll let a customer touch my boobs in a Champagne room (for $500+ an hour), but I get very obviously uncomfortable and other attempts at contact from a customer. I have a tendency to flinch if someone at PEC tries to rub my legs during a dance.

It'll often cost me another dance or more from the guy, but in 5+ years of dancing, I've learned that most of these guys fall into 2 categories:

1) They want to get as much for as little money as possible.

2) They're willing to spend money only for sexual favors.

Neither are people that I want to deal with in my customer base.

FONDL, if you think that us lower-contact dancers are thrilled to have men that seek extras at our clubs because they might throw us a dollar or two on stage, you are sorely deluded.
I've lost business to extras dancers before and I don't get too aggravated by it because I am a good enough businesswoman to make money most nights without resorting to that.

I seriously do not understand the mentality of these girls and why they just don't go to work at a massage parlor or escort. These girls are fucking and sucking and bringing home just $500 a night? Have some goddamn standards!

WELL SAID!!!! I think NINA DAISY speaks for many of us who are trying to earn a clean living and not have to resort to degrading ourselves or becoming prostitutes. I also make good money and do not allow people to touch me in any way during their dances but yes, I too have lost money to girls who go farther than they are sopposed to. It makes me sick because they usually NEVER get any more than they normally would if they would have done a "standard" dance. I have eliminated many people from my clientele only to watch those guys go to the select few girls who break the rules,. Then they wonder why noone can stand them. If a girl wants to do sexual favors than she should go work at an escort service and leave it out of the club.

slutty
12-24-2004, 08:22 PM
I understand where men are coming from, we are taking our clothes off and dancing all over them, i can see where they think they can touch, but yelling at them and making them feel bad only makes it worse for you! come up with something clever to say to where it doesn't hurt there feelings, remember they are the ones paying our bills.

devilkitty
12-24-2004, 10:41 PM
Alot of times though Extras bring the cops who wil arrest clean girls for breaking minor laws like accidently getting to close or what not.

Wwanderer
12-24-2004, 10:47 PM
Ww, we've known each other for some time now and I say, most respectfully, that Fondl is on the right track here with his comments.

Mod note. Rest of posting edited out because:

1. It had nothing to do with the topic - or the section, for that matter.
2. It was more inflammatory than helpful.

I have saved the edited-out language in case the poster wishes to appeal to a higher authority.

Hi Thorn,

Indeed we have, and although I do not always agree with you (but sometimes do), I often find that you have interesting perspectives and things to say. And while it sometimes takes a while to read your posts, I always do. If the moderator deleted material was addressed to me or some point I have made, I regret not getting to see it. (JZ, I am not questioning your decision...and indeed I have no basis for doing so without knowing what was deleted. It may well have been the right thing to do, but anyway, I'm still curious about what Thorn had to say.) Anyway, Thorn, you can PM here and you know where/how to reach me "elsewhere", so feel free to take it backchannel if you are so inclined.

-Ww

FBR
12-26-2004, 12:49 PM
JZ and I feel that pretty much all the pertinent thoughts on this topic have been expressed so we are locking it.

Thanks to all who have posted their opinions.

FBR