View Full Version : Strip Clubs as Special Ethical Arenas
stant
01-08-2005, 03:56 PM
Nice phrase, catchy!
But I think that the discussion is beginning to lose sight of some of the essential conditions of an SEA, in particular the one of mutual consent to participate and to suspend ordinary standards of behavior/ethics in this particular game/arena.
I understand. Perhaps you'll agree that the concept of an SEA is one that could easily be abused to white wash patently unethical behavior with "theory". This was my point.
I agree that the SEA ideas discussed here strayed from the original definition, which is probably what will always happen outside of a graduate ethics seminar. It is a dangerous notion to play with, but an interesting one.
No one, not even the offenders, think that owners of IP are consenting to violations of copyright laws, etc.
-Ww
Yes. But a frightening majority of infringers have a misguided belief that the "fair use" doctrine applies to their property theft. (which is nearly always laughable) I'm shocked at the number of people that know of the "fair use" doctrine, but have next to zero actual understanding of it. This is precisely the danger I see for an idea such as an SEA. The idea is ripe for abuse, and could gain a rapid and misused adoption among evil doers.
Wwanderer
01-08-2005, 10:20 PM
Perhaps you'll agree that the concept of an SEA is one that could easily be abused to white wash patently unethical behavior with "theory".
It is a dangerous notion to play with, but an interesting one.
The idea is ripe for abuse, and could gain a rapid and misused adoption among evil doers.
Yes, SEA is guilty as charged on all counts. Without fairly careful and precise thought, it easily morphs into any-common-behavior-is-ok-no-matter-how-bad ethics.
However, before passing sentence on SEA your Honor, please consider the following:
- It is extremely unlikely that anything written here will have any significant impact on what actually happens in strip clubs, if for no other reason because such a tiny fraction of dancers and customers will ever read it.
- At most I think it might have a little effect on how some topics are discussed and understood on SW; in that context, it might be helpful...maybe.
- My guess is that if strip club "evil doers" were to adopt some distortion of SEA as the basis for their behavior, it would not be any worse (more permissive) than whatever they are using now (maybe nothing at all or maybe whatever-I-can-get-away-with ethics).
-Ww
FONDL
01-09-2005, 11:19 AM
Ww, I'm not so sure that what's said here won't have any impact on what happens in clubs. This site appears to have a lot more readers than just those of us who post. And any time someone asks a question about a particular club there always seem to be several people who either work there or hang out there. I for one have reached a better understanding of how clubs work based on this discussion. And as a result I'll probably act a little differently than I have in the past. The SEA concept, which is new to me, is a good rational expalantion for club behavior that otherwise appears to be somewhat irrational. Thanks to all for educating me.
Wwanderer
01-09-2005, 06:21 PM
Ww, I'm not so sure that what's said here won't have any impact on what happens in clubs. This site appears to have a lot more readers than just those of us who post.
Yeah, but how many of them would read this thread? ;)
More seriously, maybe you are right; certainly I don't really know how big the SW audience is. Maybe we could start an informal survey; next time one of us is talking to someone in a strip club, ask them if they know what a special ethical arena is.
-Ww
Phil-W
01-11-2005, 11:15 AM
Going back to the original theme of this thread, strip clubs are indeed a special ethical arena with specific rules that fall outside the usually accepted rules in the big wide world.
The broad SEA rules can also be modified by specific circumstances including:
* The legal rules under which the club is licenced.
* The type of dance requested.
* The nature of the relationship between dancer and customer.
As has also been mentioned, there is a game going on within the SC - the dancer is seeking to maximise her income, while the customer is (probably) seeking to maximise his entertainment/mileage.
It would be interesting if someone well versed in Game Theory could comment on this thread.
* What is the optimum strategy for a dancer?
* What is the optimum strategy for a customer?
* Are the two strategies mutually compatible or mutually exclusive?
* How important are the SEA rules in determining the strategies?
Phil W
Wwanderer
01-11-2005, 12:10 PM
As has also been mentioned, there is a game going on within the SC - the dancer is seeking to maximise her income, while the customer is (probably) seeking to maximise his entertainment/mileage.
Or if not his "mileage", he is probably trying to maximize how much time with a/the dancer he gets for the money he has to spend, or something similar.
This is an aspect of the discussion which definitely interests me, but I am not sure the "pink side" is the right place to discuss it in detail. In general though, dancers often say that they want customers to remember that their interactions in the club are "work, just a job" for them, nothing personal about it. The SEA/symmetrical implication, not necessarily welcomed by most dancers, is that customers are then entitled to treat the club like a market and the dancers like commodities ("nothing personal" of course) and thus employ all the usual buyer market strategies to serve their own interests/goals. Actually doing this sort of thing in a strip club, as I have at times, can be extremely effective (partly because it is so rare) from a customer's perspective.
It would be interesting if someone well versed in Game Theory could comment on this thread.
* What is the optimum strategy for a dancer?
* What is the optimum strategy for a customer?
* Are the two strategies mutually compatible or mutually exclusive?
* How important are the SEA rules in determining the strategies?
Is there a Nash Equilibrium??!
As for the last question you list, it is hard to see how the answer could be anything other than "extremely important".
-Ww
stant
01-11-2005, 12:51 PM
...In general though, dancers often say that they want customers to remember that their interactions in the club are "work, just a job" for them, nothing personal about it. The SEA/symmetrical implication, not necessarily welcomed by most dancers, is that customers are then entitled to treat the club like a market and the dancers like commodities ("nothing personal" of course) and thus employ all the usual buyer market strategies to serve their own interests/goals.
Here is a clear break from an objective analysis, and not in the slightest bit symmetrical. An entertainer, a physician, or a stock broker, all are performing "just a job". This does not equate to inanimate goods. The use of the term "commodity" by you here is revealing, perhaps. Commodity generally refers to goods, not human beings. Unless you mean humans as property. You've headed down an offensive pathway.
...customers are then entitled to treat the club like a market and the dancers like commodities ("nothing personal" of course)...
This one set you back substantially as a reasonable argument. Take another bite at the apple.
Phil-W
01-11-2005, 01:02 PM
In general though, dancers often say that they want customers to remember that their interactions in the club are "work, just a job" for them, nothing personal about it. -Ww
My experience, (in the UK at least), is different. There dancers very much adopt a persona when at work. The persona generally fits the stereotype that much of the audience have of a dancer and is definately designed to maximise income. They go to some lengths to give the impression that they are getting a personal "kick" out of it, rather than just earning a living.
This is very much an effective "maximisation of income" strategy - most men go into a strip establishment with a preconception as to what a dancer is like and the dancer has no intention of disusading him.
I have found dancers stay within the persona until they genuinely want to become friendly with you, then some or all of the persona is discarded and you get to know the dancers as an individual. However, the persona is rapidly readopted while someone else is in earshot.
Interestingly, being friendly with one dancer can have a knock on effect - the good old dancer grapevine. I've often found that friends of the dancers I am friendly with will also drop the mask with me when there's no one in earshot. I think this is sheer practicality - they know that I'm not likely to spend money on them, so why not relax and have a friendly chat without the need to pretend to be something they're not.
Going back to the broader picture, I think dancers are much more aware, either consciously or unconsciously of the Special Ethical Arena concept - they know that adopting a persona can improve their income, while many of their customers remain unaware that it is a persona.
The three dancers I meet with socially, (as well as professionally), make no bones about it to me. They are there to exploit the customers in the venue and make as much money as possible out of them, (without making that obvious).
Phil W
Wwanderer
01-11-2005, 01:45 PM
dancers often say that they want customers to remember that their interactions in the club are "work, just a job" for them, nothing personal about it. The SEA/symmetrical implication, not necessarily welcomed by most dancers, is that customers are then entitled to treat the club like a market and the dancers like commodities ("nothing personal" of course) and thus employ all the usual buyer market strategies to serve their own interests/goals.
Here is a clear break from an objective analysis, and not in the slightest bit symmetrical. An entertainer, a physician, or a stock broker, all are performing "just a job". This does not equate to inanimate goods. The use of the term "commodity" by you here is revealing, perhaps. Commodity generally refers to goods, not human beings. Unless you mean humans as property. You've headed down an offensive pathway.
Well, it is at the very least a break from careful wording on my part; I should have said that the customer is entitled to treat the dancers' time or the dances he buys like commodities. In other words I was using the word "commodity" to refer to a service (rather than a good) but certainly not to a human being; I think that it would be pretty far fetched to understand what goes on in strip clubs as involving some form of slavery, "humans as property". In other words, I beg the benefit of the doubt here. It is ironic, in a way, since I have argued at length elsewhere, that even prostitution does not commodify a person, at least no more so than the services provided by other professions ("entertainer, a physician, or a stock broker") commodifies people in those lines of work; I certainly do not see dancers, as people, changed into commodities by strip club interactions.
What then did I mean, you might be inclined to ask? It is certainly a fair question. I mean that when a dancer says that she thinks that customers should understand, and keep in mind, that the apparent affection or sexual interest she displays towards them are "not personal" but just a part of her job, just what she does to achieve her (financial) goals in their transaction, she then invites customers to use the same sort of deceptive behavior to achieve their goals in the transaction and should not take their actions at face value either.
Sorry for any misunderstanding and confusion created by my sloppy wording above. In a certain sense it is semantics though; whether I describe a person as a commodity or their actions as a commodity or my interaction with them as a commodity may have no practical effect on my behavior. This is where we contact the SEA notion. Dancers feel, correctly imo, that when a customer enters a strip club, he is implicitly consenting to being flirted with and sexually aroused/teased as a part of a commercial transaction (i.e., with no personal motivations on the dancers' parts), something not generally considered proper outside the club. The issue I am raising here is to what does the dancer consent in return?
-Ww
Wwanderer
01-11-2005, 02:01 PM
My experience, (in the UK at least), is different.
Actually, what you go on to describe fits my experiences in clubs in the US, and similar "style" clubs in other countries rather precisely. If I seemed to be saying that it was otherwise in the US, I was again unclear.
There dancers very much adopt a persona when at work. ... This is very much an effective "maximisation of income" strategy - most men go into a strip establishment with a preconception as to what a dancer is like and the dancer has no intention of disusading him. ... I have found dancers stay within the persona until they genuinely want to become friendly with you, then some or all of the persona is discarded and you get to know the dancers as an individual. ... they know that adopting a persona can improve their income, while many of their customers remain unaware that it is a persona. ... They are there to exploit the customers in the venue and make as much money as possible out of them, (without making that obvious).
Exactly so in my experience also. (You could say exactly the same about most escorts/prostitutes too, in my experience.) The point I was getting at is that dancers often say, on SW at least, that they want the customers to understand that their club personas and behavior are "fake", that they are not being their real selves, that it would be wrong (ethically at least) for them to be so false in a conventional context but that it is allowed by the club's SEA status. This is my understanding of what they mean when they say that customers need to understand and keep in mind that it is "only fantasy" entertainment, etc. The point with which I misled stant above was only that the customers are then equally entitled to be deliberately "false" in pursuit of their goals in the transactions, imo at least.
-Ww
Phil-W
01-11-2005, 03:05 PM
The point I was getting at is that dancers often say, on SW at least, that they want the customers to understand that their club personas and behavior are "fake", that they are not being their real selves, that it would be wrong (ethically at least) for them to be so false in a conventional context but that it is allowed by the club's SEA status. This is my understanding of what they mean when they say that customers need to understand and keep in mind that it is "only fantasy" entertainment, etc. -Ww
They might say so on SW, but my experience in strip venues is that dancers make a deliberate point of not letting customers know that they are 'faking' it. Many customers also would be upset at the thought the dancer was not getting a kick out of what she was doing. As an example here is a post of mine from a UK chat group, and the corresponding reply.
Post.
As [the dancers and I] know each other pretty well, the dances are a bit of fun which neither side takes too seriously - in fact one dancer and I tend to have the odd fit or two of giggles. (She manages to be more serious with other people.)
Reply.
--don't like the sound of Phil's dancer friend, sounds like she is laughing at guys who have private dances with her and take it
seriously instead of a "laugh". Hope she is not one I have ever had a dance with as she sounds like she is up her own arse.
The thing that strikes me about this chat group is how open the dancers are about the their real motivations. Given that most people on this 'pink' side of the group can have few illusions about a dancer's real motivations, and given that such openness might impact on their earnings, I take the point in an earlier post that few people attending SC's read SW.
Presumably, if SW were widely read this would:
(a) have a significant impact on customer behaviour in SC's as Special Ethical Arenas as more of them would come to view dancers as acting a part rather than getting an erotic thrill out of their part in the transaction.
(b) Impact on dancer's earnings as many customers found their stereotype was an illusion, not a reality.
Phil W.
Wwanderer
01-11-2005, 08:27 PM
They might say so on SW, but my experience in strip venues is that dancers make a deliberate point of not letting customers know that they are 'faking' it. Many customers also would be upset at the thought the dancer was not getting a kick out of what she was doing.
When someone sees a Hollywood movie, or a play or whatever, he/she normally understand perfectly well that the scenes appearing before their eyes are a fiction and an intentional deception for the purpose of their entertainment. He/she knows that the villain did not actually just murder someone in cold blood, that the heroine is not really infatuated with that jerk who is out to get her money, that the water in which the hero is immersed is not really freezing him to death and so forth. The audience member certainly knows that it is all "just an act". However, in order to enjoy the movie, he/she simply chooses to set this knowledge aside, to ignore it, to put it out of mind; this state of mind or attitude is called "suspended disbelief" sometimes. If it were not for our ability to suspend disbelief, works of fiction, in any medium, would not be very interesting or entertaining for most people.
It is my impression that very much the same sort of process, the same sort of "suspended disbelief", is in play for most customers in a strip club. The totally ordinary and blah, or much worse, looking 40- or 50-something year old guy knows perfectlywell that he has not suddenly become irresistably attractive to the 20 something hot looking young woman from whom he has just purchased a lap dance, and he also clearly understands that it is no coincidence that those dancers to whom he gives money just happen to be the ones who appear to so love frolicking in his lap. However, in order to enjoy the experience, in order to be entertained, he must ignore this knowledge, push it to the back of his mind; he must "suspend his disbelief".
(Now, to be sure, there are exceptions; there are a few guys that get lost in the fantasy, who somehow come to believe that it is all real. There are people like that with works of fiction too...many soap opera fans, for example, seem to almost believe that the dramas they watch every afternoon on the TV are somehow real. However, I do not think such confusion is very common in SCs...or movie theatres.)
Imo, dancers who say that they want the customers to remember that it is all "just their job" and "not personal" are quite a bit like actors and actresses who say they want their fans to remember that they are not really the characters whom they play on the screen but are actually "real people" with much more ordinary lives, etc. It is not that they wish their fans to keep this in mind while enjoying the movie; it is that they want them to acknowledge it when the movie is over. Basically, dancers are telling customers the same thing, neh?
-Ww
FONDL
01-12-2005, 10:50 AM
I have a problem with the idea that dancers try to maximize their incomes. In my experience many dancers do no such thing. The dancers who I have known generally group their customers into various categories and treat each category differently. A customer who is in the most favored category will get much more of the dancer's time, regardless of whether he spends the most money. In other words, many dancers will spend extra time with a customer who's company they enjoy, even if they could make more money by hustling other customers. I've found that many dancers have a goal in mind about how much they need to make per shift, and as long as they know they will make that goal they don't try very hard to make any extra. They'd often rather enjoy themselves and not work so hard. Just like the rest of us. I think very few people in life ever try to maximize their incomes. I certainly never have.
Phil-W
01-12-2005, 03:41 PM
...the same sort of "suspended disbelief", is in play for most customers in a strip club. The totally ordinary and blah, or much worse, looking 40- or 50-something year old guy knows perfectlywell that he has not suddenly become irresistably attractive to the 20 something hot looking young woman from whom he has just purchased a lap dance, and he also clearly understands that it is no coincidence that those dancers to whom he gives money just happen to be the ones who appear to so love frolicking in his lap. However, in order to enjoy the experience, in order to be entertained, he must ignore this knowledge, push it to the back of his mind; he must "suspend his disbelief".
-Ww
As you pointed out at the start of this thread, SC's are a Special Ethical Arena where a code of behaviour completely different from that of the 'big wide world' is acceptable. The customer goes in to experience dances of varying mileage, while the stripper is there to provide the dances and earn a living. They can clearly see and feel what is happening, but the motivations behind the code of behaviour remain, (deliberately or otherwise), obscure, because motivations can generally only be revealed by conversation.
In my experience few men/customers get sufficiently friendly with a dancer for her to drop her persona and deal with him as an individual. They thus interact with a stereotype rather than a person and seldom get to learn what lies behind the mask - the dancer's true motivarions remain hidden.
The 40 - 50 year old may thus be fully aware that the 'hot' 20 year old dancing for him is not excited by him personally, but may still believe the stereotypical view that the dancer gets an general erotic stimuli by being naked in a room full of strangers. If the dancer is earning good money from him, she is not going to disuade him from his misconception by saying, "oh, well; this is just a very effective way of paying my bills".
The Special Ethical Arena has its own rules, but I think a clear distinction has to be drawn between behaviour that can be observed and is unambiguous, (i.e. the precise nature of a lap dance), and personal motivations that have to be inferred, (and which may be intentionally misleading or misinterpreted).
Phil W.
Mpooh170
03-14-2007, 02:46 PM
I am so glad you said that I am writing my Dissertation on Strip Clubs and I am using my own experience working at Scores for J Bildstien the Self Proclaimed King of Clubs. When he opened his club it was such a contrast to the old champaign hustle clubs. Our staff meetings including continual orientation to the Value of the customer. By the book and read it for a real good read. I wrote this in my paper and my professor really was a bit shocked at first. The thought that in this environment there are rules and codes of ethics caught him off guard.
I was hurt too at first because I think that in Academia there has to be some room for alternative research. The dissertations done by others stand as my foundation thank goodness for this though without it I would be SOL
threlayer
03-20-2007, 02:58 PM
So, where is this Hoyle's "Rules of Strip Clubs"?
Every club and even dancer is ethically different. Real life example of her special ethical area....
Me, "So what do you like to do in the VIP room?"
She,"Blow Jobs."
Me, thinking, what a line of SS. "You're kidding."
Then $20 and five mins later (safisfying my curiosity at the least worse of the selection).
Me, "what are you doing with my belt?"
She, "Getting you ready."
Me, "You're kidding."
She, releasing something inside my pants, "See, not kidding. mmm"
Me, "Wait, we'll both get in trouble."
She, "No we won't. I have special permission from the boss."
Me, thinking, omigish I'm getting out of this, now. Hmmm, she's pretty good at it.
VegasPrincess
03-20-2007, 04:53 PM
I agree. It's almost disturbing, in a way, the things that are done in strip clubs. The one thing I always think of in regards to that is that men will keep grabbing and touching you even after you repeatedly ask them not to, as if they are dehumanizing you because you are a stripper. Out on the streets, 9 out of 10 of these guys would never DREAM of grabbing a girls tits, especially after she said no, but in the strip club it somehow becomes acceptable.... VERY bizzare.
The same goes for us, really. I mean, if we were sitting down at dinner with friends and some weirdo came up and grabbed our tits, we'd punch him in the face. But since it happens at work, we all deal with it... which is not to say we allow it, but we're not surprised or horified when it happens. At least I'm not.
UtahMike
03-20-2007, 07:19 PM
Things a guy can do in a SC that he couldn't do elsewhere without getting charged with sexual harassment or worse:
* Stare at a beautiful girl, or at beautiful parts of that girl.
* Compliment a girl he does not know on her beautiful body or parts thereof.
* Invite a girl he does not know to sit with him.
* Invite a girl to undress while he watches.
* (Not everywhere, but many places), put his arm around a girl's waist, touch her back, hair, arms, and shoulders.
Go try any of this in, say, the supermarket, and see what happens, even if you offer to tip.
threlayer
03-20-2007, 08:17 PM
....
The 40 - 50 year old may thus be fully aware that the 'hot' 20 year old dancing for him is not excited by him personally, but may still believe the stereotypical view that the dancer gets an general erotic stimuli by being naked in a room full of strangers. If the dancer is earning good money from him, she is not going to disuade him from his misconception by saying, "oh, well; this is just a very effective way of paying my bills".
The Special Ethical Arena has its own rules, but I think a clear distinction has to be drawn between behaviour that can be observed and is unambiguous, (i.e. the precise nature of a lap dance), and personal motivations that have to be inferred, (and which may be intentionally misleading or misinterpreted).
You have to allow that different things entice different women. At 40-50 etc a man may not be as handsome and/or fit as he once was. But that superficiality is unimportant to many women. They may like the maturity, the stability, the manners, the status, or the lifestyle, etc that she may envision while fantasizing about being with that guy. Now that may not apply to the younger gals who may associate the guy with a father-figure etc. But for the older contingent, say 25-35 or so, they may see something in an older man that attracts them much more than the abs or hair or body shape generally that younger guys (often not always) have.
For some women (a minority to be sure) their own enticement is a factor in how they behave or what they conceive the situation to be.