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Lurker
01-25-2005, 11:58 AM
I'm 100% with Jenny on this. If you don't want to spend time with someone, you're not devaluing THEIR time by saying it will cost them money to spend time with you. In all sorts of professions that's the way things work--and the profession of dancers is pretty much just that: spending time with their customer in whatever (non-sexual) way the two of them can agree on.

Whether the sugar daddy has his own issues...Sure, maybe he does. But maybe he doesn't. In this case, doesn't sound to me like the guy is looking for a SB due to a lack of self-worth.

I also agree with Lilith that a dancer doesn't have to shoot herself in the foot by telling a guy upfront that their SD/SB relationship isn't going to end up with sex. The only line I'd draw there is that she should NOT lie...If some element of the relationship (e.g. sex)matters so much to the guy, he will persist in questioning until her intentions become apparent. If he doesn't think he can change her mind, he'll probably be done with her. And that's fair. That's better disclosure than you will get from a used-car salesman, and all you can expect from someone who makes a living doing it.

I don't think the comparison with a first date is accurate (since this is an outgrowth of her job as a dancer, it's reasonable to apply the same SEA analysis to the SD/SB relationship). I DO think that the best way for both parties to end up satisfied is if they agree on things going in, but that that path may not be the best way for the dancer/SB to maximize her own returns. So you may have to weigh how much you want to hurt/mislead the guy to get money.

Having said that, I DO think that you should answer questions honestly on your first date! If the guy asks if he's going to have sex with you, I'd think 99% of the time that's pretty easy to answer ("Um...No. I have to go."). That doesn't mean you have to give the WHOLE answer ("maybe later" doesn't have to become "if I have a complete personality change"), but honesty is a pretty low bar.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 12:54 PM
if such a scenario concerns them only in regards to the woman's "ethical" obligations to a man like that.


honesty is a pretty low bar.

We are now pretty far off on a tangent from "sugar relationships", but re non-commercial relationships - right, it is only that rather low bar that I am advocating. And, since I don't seem to have made myself clear - no, not just re questions from the man to the woman about her willingness to have sex. Here are some examples of serious questions that can come up quite early, even on a first date, in a budding relationship between reasonably mature and sophisticated people:

Are you married?

Have you ever been married?

Do you have any children?

How sexually active are you at this point in your life?

Do you have any or are you at risk for any STDs?

Do you use drugs?

Do you have any drinking or other addiction problems?

Are you ever willing to have casual sexual relationships or is sex only a part of a serious relationship for you?

Do you find me sexually attractive?

Etc.

Depending on the people involved, these questions may be phrased in either a completely direct and explicit way or may be asked in a more subtle and indirect style. And all of the above questions can and are asked by both men and women. Moreover, it is not rare for people to lie in response to these and similar questions, especially early in a relationship. However, rare or common, it is wrong (and unwise) to do so, imo...equally wrong for a man or a woman. And I too think it is a fairly "low bar".

Getting back to "sugar relationships", my personal opinion (fwiiw) is that lying about such topics is also wrong in that context, again whether you are the "baby" or the "daddy", but what I originally intended to do in this thread was to ask what others thought about such honesty issues when "sugar"is involved. Does the "sugar" change the ethics at all? It strikes me as an interesting issue, but not one about which we should expect to find everyone in agreement and also not one about which anyone need feel insulted (if that is what is happening).

-Ww

Lilith
01-25-2005, 01:11 PM
You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.

Lilith
01-25-2005, 01:17 PM
Here are some examples of serious questions that can come up quite early, even on a first date, in a budding relationship between reasonably mature and sophisticated people:

Are you married?

Have you ever been married?

Do you have any children?

.... [etc etc snipped]

Backpedalling burns 300 calories per hour, did you know that? We weren't discussing getting-to-know-you, by-the-by questions. I brought up the corrolation to a pair of civilians on their first date and a man who wanted to know when his date would put out. You stated that a woman was obligated ("obliged" being your very word) to answer honestly any direct question her date asked about when he would get some nookie.

Djoser
01-25-2005, 01:25 PM
You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.

And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-Saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discriminated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.

Adina
01-25-2005, 01:27 PM
You know, I never realized just how many men view a first date between civilians to be a business transaction. I paid for your dinner and/or theater tickets, so now you owe me. I think I need a shower now.

Totally unrelated to the tangential direction this thread has taken, but I went on a couple of dates with someone a year ago. When it became obvious that he was "off" in more ways than one, and I told him I wasn't interested in pursuing a relationship, he tallied the amount of money he had spent on our dates and demanded it back. So I sent him a check - because I wanted to see if he'd actually cash it.

And you know what? He did./:O

hardkandee
01-25-2005, 01:41 PM
And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discrimated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.

Holy crap, Djoser, you're right! :noidea:

Maybe we should start a collection for them. It's not like it is their fault that the money is just vanishing from their pockets!

Lilith
01-25-2005, 01:42 PM
They hire them to provide them with said services with no social obligation on their part which is the standard quid pro quo for sharing such intimacies.



Ha! I've said exactly the same thing to guys who think customers in strip clubs must all be losers (which still begs the question of why those guys are in a strip club, and are they "losers" too?) .

Djoser
01-25-2005, 01:48 PM
They don't pay women to have sex with them. They pay them to go away after they are finished.


Why not just save money and pay them a little less to stay away in the first place?

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 01:55 PM
So I sent him a check - because I wanted to see if he'd actually cash it. And you know what? He did./:O

Wow, what a modern, free-thinking and liberated guy...still a rare breed indeed! ;)

-Ww

Lurker
01-25-2005, 01:56 PM
Lilith, please...You just have to ANSWER the question, you don't have to put out! You're completely entitled to tell the guy to fuck off or whatever, you just shouldn't lie to him.

Regardless of what the question is--you can tell him it's none of his business, you can tell him you don't know the answer or don't want to tell him, but just DON'T LIE.

That's the standard of conduct that makes you want to take a shower?

And Djoser, you're right...It's not the rich old perverts that need to be watched out for, but the sexy young American women! THEY'RE the ones who REALLY need to be taken care of!

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 02:04 PM
Regardless of what the question is--you can tell him it's none of his business, you can tell him you don't know the answer or don't want to tell him, but just DON'T LIE.

Boldface added.

Precisely. Fwiiw, I can't for the life of me see what is so exceptional or demanding or unfair or gender discriminatory about that standard/expectation.

-Ww

Jenny
01-25-2005, 02:23 PM
I disagree. Healthy men who don't believe there is anything wrong with consenting adults contracting for personal services don't hire hookers because their services are unlikely to be volunteered. They hire them to provide them with said services with no social obligation on their part which is the standard quid pro quo for sharing such intimacies.

In otherwords. They don't pay women to have sex with them. They pay them to go away after they are finished.

Alright. You'll forgive me if I think that is a little naive. I'm pretty sure that they are in fact paying to have sex with them.


Like I said... so much of this business goes on without much serious thought. The dancers and the customers alike. This venue is unique in that it is one of the few places, because of the anonimity factor, where dancers and customers can be straight with one another, let their hair down, and really talk. I just think it would be such a waste of an opportunity to learn a little something about each other if all we did here was run our games past one other the same way we do in the clubs.

But see, part of the whole anonymity factor is what causes the problems. Because, as much as we want to prove our points by analogy (which traditionally is meant to explain a position, and not to prove anything) there really are no situations that are strictly analagous to a stripclub. We have all seen unscrupulous practices by both men and women that in slightly different circumstances would have been perfectly acceptable. I think I am coming to the opinion that most of the things should be taken on a case-by-case.

Rath
01-25-2005, 02:32 PM
And ugly old perverts trying to fuck sexy young women for money are by far the most abused category in our society today.

Who cares about ghetto children, native populations eradicated by imperialist Anglo-Saxons, or Middle Eastern despots torturing their own people? Right here in our stripclubs we can find the most abused and downtrodden of all, who are being discriminated against and taken advantage of by vicious and predatory women, out for their own physical gain.

I get it. Go into a business where you can generate sufficient contempt for the customer base and then you can justify doing whatever unscrupulous shit you want, because of the course the customers are contemptible.

While I agree with you about the magnitude of this issue in comparison with other more global concerns, I haven't seen you make this same point in the thread where strippers complain about guys who come into clubs but don't tip. Dude, EVERYTHING (everything on topic, anyway) that's discussed on this board is trivial.

Lurker
01-25-2005, 02:35 PM
Djoser--My apologies but I couldn't get your PM (my browser blocks pop-ups). Is there any way to access it now? I have to confess I'm not the most computer-savvy...

Jenny
01-25-2005, 02:38 PM
Well, generally, our customer base is pretty contemptible. tell the truth - have you NEVER had your stomach turned by watching a gross old man come in and fondle (not necessarily sexually) a very young girl, and act like he just has a perfect right to? Yes, we know it's our business, but really, sometimes, when you look at it, isn't it just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for that client base? And then of course, sometimes it's not. Situational.

Lilith
01-25-2005, 02:44 PM
Boldface added.

Precisely. Fwiiw, I can't for the life of me see what is so exceptional or demanding or unfair or gender discriminatory about that standard/expectation.

-Ww

Oh sure. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a man like that. There's only an ethical problem if the deceitful wench isn't perfectly honest with him.

Lurker, the option of not answering or telling him off or whatnot was not given by Wwanderer. If a man directly asks his date, on their first social occasion, when she will give him nookie, she is obliged to answer and do so honestly. That was the situation put forth and that was the answer given by Wwanderer. Not much room for the benefit of the doubt in there.

Again, I am not swayed by the questionable ethics argument of those who do not fully grasp the concept of manners or equally apply those same ethics.

Djoser
01-25-2005, 02:58 PM
Djoser--My apologies but I couldn't get your PM (my browser blocks pop-ups). Is there any way to access it now? I have to confess I'm not the most computer-savvy...

If you go up and click on the "Private Messages" written in purple, in the upper right hand corner, it should take you there without the pop-up blocker stopping it--that's the way it works on mine.

Lurker
01-25-2005, 02:59 PM
Well, telling him to F--O--, that it's not his business, etc. are all answers that are, in fact, answers and honest to boot. And I think at this point in the thread, regardless of whether he constructed the initial example ambiguously or you misconstrued it, it's clear that those would be acceptable to Ww as answers. I'm not sure we disagree anymore. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: I guess they're not technically answers to the question he's asking, but they would in most cases have an implicit answer which would be quite clear to the inquirer (i.e. No/Never).

Rath
01-25-2005, 03:03 PM
Well, generally, our customer base is pretty contemptible. tell the truth - have you NEVER had your stomach turned by watching a gross old man come in and fondle (not necessarily sexually) a very young girl, and act like he just has a perfect right to? Yes, we know it's our business, but really, sometimes, when you look at it, isn't it just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for that client base? And then of course, sometimes it's not. Situational.

Sure. Frankly, most things about strip clubs turn my stomach.

But here's the thing: the point of ethics is that you have to treat the people it's "just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for" just as well as you treat everybody else. To indulge in a mind-boggling overstatement, Germans in the 30s and 40s didn't find Jews very "sympathetic" -- they thought they were unattractive money-grubbers with bad hygiene -- but that didn't justify what the Germans did to them. Lots of people in the USA today don't find Muslims very "sympathetic", but that doesn't justify the shit those people would pull if other right-thinking people weren't around to stop them.

But bringing this back down to earth -- cuz Djozer's right, really I don't think that pervs are up there with German Jews and Muslims on the endangered people list -- the issue here isn't whether old pervs skeez you out, or whether some aspects of sex work make you want to vomit. The issue is whether any of that gives you a right to act unscrupulously toward the pervs. I just don't see how it does.

Djoser
01-25-2005, 03:16 PM
I get it. Go into a business where you can generate sufficient contempt for the customer base and then you can justify doing whatever unscrupulous shit you want, because of the course the customers are contemptible.
...I haven't seen you make this same point in the thread where strippers complain about guys who come into clubs but don't tip.

Actually, I have...

The point isn't really that men hold the prize for always being contemptible. They don't. I have worked with some incredibly selfish, contemptible women who weren't fit to tie my shoes. But by and large, the guys who are trying to fuck the dancers are not being taken advantage of any more than they are trying to do the same.

Since this is a dancer site, and I have worked with them and seen the shit they have to put up with, I tend to be more sympathetic here. If I were on a site for customers, I would find it irritating if the dancers who visited the site were to shrilly counter every single post by a customer complaining about common problems in stripclubs with an outraged diatribe, the way some customers do here, over and over again.

Rath
01-25-2005, 03:33 PM
Fair enough. Thanks.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 03:34 PM
Oh sure. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a man like that. There's only an ethical problem if the deceitful wench isn't perfectly honest with him.

But...


the above questions can and are asked by both men and women. Moreover, it is not rare for people to lie in response to these and similar questions, especially early in a relationship. However, rare or common, it is wrong (and unwise) to do so, imo...equally wrong for a man or a woman.

It seems clear that I am seriously bothering or offending you somehow, but I really don't do net flame wars or crticizing individuals in public posts (as individuals, as opposed to criticizing their arguments or views), so don't expect me to take offense or "yell" at you or any such thing in this discussion. However, when you assert that I think/believe something which I do not...and indeed which is the opposite of what I have just said, I will point it out. As in this case.

So, once more and fwiiw, I think that it is equally wrong for men to lie to women in the context of either conventional romantic or "sugar" type relationships. Moreover, I acknowledge that it is common for men to do so in both instances; on average, men are no more honest than women in such contexts and are at least arguably less so. If the emphasis of this discussion has been on the behavior of women, it is because the topic is "keeping a sugar daddy", not "keeping a sugar baby".

-Ww

Jenny
01-25-2005, 03:46 PM
Sure. Frankly, most things about strip clubs turn my stomach.

And yet.


But here's the thing: the point of ethics is that you have to treat the people it's "just really hard to feel a lot of sympathy for" just as well as you treat everybody else. To indulge in a mind-boggling overstatement, Germans in the 30s and 40s didn't find Jews very "sympathetic"

Yeah, you're right. That is a mind boggling overstatement and, frankly, a grossly inappropriate analogy.


But bringing this back down to earth -- cuz Djozer's right, really I don't think that pervs are up there with German Jews and Muslims on the endangered people list -- the issue here isn't whether old pervs skeez you out, or whether some aspects of sex work make you want to vomit. The issue is whether any of that gives you a right to act unscrupulously toward the pervs. I just don't see how it does.

I don't know - I don't believe it's NICE to act unscrupulously towards anyone - however, I think there is definitely some merit to the position that men are in there to try and pry as much out of us as they can while paying the bare minimum, and they feel no guilt about making implications that they might not follow through on and that therefore we have limited obligations to them. But, like I said before: maybe it is best to take it on a case by case basis.

Rath
01-25-2005, 04:08 PM
I don't know - I don't believe it's NICE to act unscrupulously towards anyone - however, I think there is definitely some merit to the position that men are in there to try and pry as much out of us as they can while paying the bare minimum, and they feel no guilt about making implications that they might not follow through on and that therefore we have limited obligations to them. But, like I said before: maybe it is best to take it on a case by case basis.

You're probably right about the case-by-case basis. You might even be subscribing to Wwanderer's dread SEA thesis.

Obviously, the problems I have with that are, first, you start letting things slide cuz you're dealing with pervs in a strip club, and then you begin to forget that you're only excusing your unscrupulous behavior cuz it's in a strip club where there might be some situational justification for it, and you just start acting unscrupulously generally. I've seen that happen to a lot of women I once liked.

My second problem is that you start saying that sometimes it's OK to act unscrupulously cuz you're dealing with pervs in a strip club, and the next thing you know, you find yourself thinking like a majority of the posters in a thread they had on this board a year or two ago. In that thread, a stripper (who might well have been a troll trying to stir up some trouble) claimed she had defrauded a customer out of more than $30,000 by means of false promises of out-of-club sex, and reported that the customer's wife was now suing her to get the money back. And you know what? A majority of the posters in the thread sided with the stripper. My mind still boggles at that.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 04:16 PM
Wwanderer's dread SEA thesis

Shouldn't it be "dreaded"?

But nevertheless, somehow that phrase made my day! ;) (or SFSF if you prefer)

-Ww

Lilith
01-25-2005, 04:21 PM
So, once more and fwiiw, I think that it is equally wrong for men to lie to women in the context of either conventional romantic or "sugar" type relationships.

It's a matter of ethics as a whole, not ethics strictly circumscribed to the narrow definition that fits one's point. A man who quizzes his date on their first outing as to when he will receive sex is behaving unethically. You, however, are ignoring this hypothetical man's transgression in favor of placing the ethical onus on his date to be honest. This demonstrates, at the very least, a lack of understanding the application of ethics, upon which you are basing your arguments.

Jenny
01-25-2005, 04:32 PM
In that thread, a stripper (who might well have been a troll trying to stir up some trouble) claimed she had defrauded a customer out of more than $30,000 by means of false promises of out-of-club sex, and reported that the customer's wife was now suing her to get the money back. And you know what? A majority of the posters in the thread sided with the stripper. My mind still boggles at that.

Well, I don't know of the post, and like I said, a case by case basis - I have no idea if I would feel she was defrauded or not. On the blue site a while ago a customer proudly wrote of how he refused a tip to a dancer after she had provided (ahem) excellent service. I, as a dancer, would feel defrauded if I had implicitly trusted in the generosity of my customer in extending boundaries and then got a straight up "no" back at me - but he, and most customers seemed to think that she was unreasonable in asking for a tip (remember how I said that customers are trying to get the most out of us without paying? And therefore we don't really owe them anything?)

I can tell one thing I could see happening off hand - customers on the site attacked the stripper in generalized terms and other women here felt bound to defend her. Or one poster simply ascribed a position to strippers (for example, beginning "That's the problem with strippers...") thus giving them a position to defend that wasn't even theirs in the first place. Or just sheer tribe mentality, in which we don't necessarily like to see other people attacking one of our own.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 04:52 PM
It's a matter of ethics as a whole, not ethics strictly circumscribed to the narrow definition that fits one's point. A man who quizzes his date on their first outing as to when he will receive sex is behaving unethically. You, however, are ignoring this hypothetical man's transgression in favor of placing the ethical onus on his date to be honest. This demonstrates, at the very least, a lack of understanding the application of ethics, upon which you are basing your arguments.

OK, thanks for the explanation. I now understand your point where I did not before.

Re the bit I have put in bold, in the context of a romantic (or potential romantic) relationship, I would consider such questioning by the man very unconventional and, unless done in some uncommonly subtle and gracious/charming way, quite rude or boorish. As Lurker suggests, she might well be justified in answering by calling him a jerk or whatever and refusing not only to have sex with him but also to ever see him again. However, I am not sure I would call it unethical exactly; being an asshole or insulting or just socially totally clueless is not unethical imo. But maybe we just have different opinions in this regard.

Perhaps more to the point, in the context of a "sugar" type relationship, which is basically a "free market" commercial transaction as you have noted, I am not so sure it is such bad behavior on the client's part to ask such questions, especially if that is what he is trying or hoping to get out of the relationship. In this context, quite different from that of a romantic one, how is it wrong for someone who wants to buy X from you to ask you if you are selling X? And, in many respects, I'd think (but what do I know about it?) that a potential "sugar baby" would rather be asked such a question up front and directly to the probably more common (and dishonest, thus wrong) "sugar daddy" tactic of saying that he is not interested in sex when in fact that is precisely what he is after. Wouldn't you consider that worse than asking directly?

-Ww

Katrine
01-25-2005, 05:00 PM
I CANNOT believe you are comparing mass genocide of millions of innocent people to stupid mind games played between the genders Rath. Not just grossly innapropriate, but magnimoniously offensive.

Arrrrrrggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!!

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 05:00 PM
Since this is a dancer site, and I have worked with them and seen the shit they have to put up with, I tend to be more sympathetic here. If I were on a site for customers, I would find it irritating if the dancers who visited the site were to shrilly counter every single post by a customer complaining about common problems in stripclubs with an outraged diatribe, the way some customers do here, over and over again.

It is ironic that I first suggested the SEA "model" of SCs in a net stripper forum populated mostly by customers and where a few dancers, mostly just one at any given time, were trying to defend their "tactics" or ethics in hustling customers in clubs. It is amusing that the whole SEA notion was heavily criticized there for being too easy on dancers! In any case, let me again say that what goes on in a SC is subject to extremely different standards of behavior than what might go on outside the club in a "sugar" relationship. Obviously not everyone agrees, but to me it would be like me swindling a friend out of some money with some psychological trickery...fine at the poker table, completely wrong in our everyday dealings with each other...say in the process of splitting a bill at a restaurant.

-Ww

Rath
01-25-2005, 05:19 PM
I CANNOT believe you are comparing mass genocide of millions of innocent people to stupid mind games played between the genders Rath. Not just grossly innapropriate, but magnimoniously offensive.

Arrrrrrggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! !!!!

Sorry if you think I understated the importance of mind games between the genders. Next time I'll compare them to mass nuclear annihilation.

For the record, though, I don't see this issue as having ANYTHING to do with gender issues. I think it has to do with commercial honesty. I think all that gender shit is a complete red herring.

Katrine
01-25-2005, 05:20 PM
Ok, fine, it can occur between two men or two women, but I see this as an issue of communicating in a relationship, even if it is business to business.

Rath
01-25-2005, 05:24 PM
Seriously, Kat, obviously you can't say commercial dishonesty is remotely comparable to the Holocaust. But when you're faced with the contention that your ethical obligations to someone can change on the basis of how much they skeev you out, it kinda does bring that mode of thinking to mind.

Katrine
01-25-2005, 05:33 PM
NO IT DOES NOT.

You are brining up a very personal and emotional tragedy as analgous to occurances in the sex industry. What's the worst that happens? A guy loses his wallet and gets his heart broken? His entire family isn't lined up and shot into an open pit, then buried, whether they were dead or not.

Comparable? This is commerce, that was war. :(

hardkandee
01-25-2005, 05:37 PM
I get it. Go into a business where you can generate sufficient contempt for the customer base and then you can justify doing whatever unscrupulous shit you want, because of the course the customers are contemptible.


On the flip side, how many customers find strippers dirty, slutty, and money hungry? Then, come in and try to haggle prices with the dancer because they feel that paying the full $10 for a dance is "too much"?

Or car sales? They try to take you for maximum profit and then laugh in the breakroom about some of the "easy" ones during the day?

In all businesses there are degrees of contempt for the customer base.

Rath
01-25-2005, 05:38 PM
I'm not gonna argue with you, Kat. All I'm saying is that it's offensive to say you can take someone's wallet from him cuz you don't like the kind of person he is just like it's offensive to say you can wipe out him and his family cuz you don't like the kind of person he is. Your problem, I guess, is that you just don't think there's anything very wrong with ripping people off. I guess we're all lucky you don't approve of genocide.

Katrine
01-25-2005, 05:38 PM
Self-delusion is not the same as forced victimization as well. These gentleman that are trying to buy the hearts and vaginas of ladies much younger than they are have some knowledge of what is going to happen. Unless the sugar daddy is autistic and cannot comprehend social behavior, he is allowing himself to be fleeced to a certain point.

And what percentage of sugar relationships continue for a long while without sex, with the man continuing to think he is going to get it. A couple of months? Most sugar relationships do involve sex.

Hearing stories about a man who blew 100k on a stripper who never fucked him is like hearing about an airplane crash. It makes for exciting press due to its shock value but remains statistically insignificant.

Katrine
01-25-2005, 05:42 PM
And remember Rath,

Not all sugar relationships are combative, and not all strippers are ripping off their customers. Sexuality is a commodity with a value, like paper money, gold, and fucking soybeans.

Its bound to the laws or market economics as well. Its only when pissants attach emotions and "feelings" to it that it begins to skew the initial purpose of the commerce, eg men paying for sex without committment from a variety of women or other men.

So maybe its not gender wars, but the politics of power rather? What do you think?

Rath
01-25-2005, 05:44 PM
And remember Rath,

Not all sugar relationships are combative, and not all strippers are ripping off their customers. Sexuality is a commodity with a value, like paper money, gold, and fucking soybeans.

Its bound to the laws or market economics as well. Its only when pissants attach emotions and "feelings" to it that it begins to skew the initial purpose of the commerce, eg men paying for sex without committment from a variety of women or other men.

So maybe its not gender wars, but the politics of power rather? What do you think?

I think this post and the one above it are right on point. I agree with what you're saying.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 05:44 PM
that was war.

I would say that it is far worse than war; war is a fight, even if an unequal or unfair one, not systematic slaughter of the defenseless. Irrelevant to this discussion, I know...

-Ww

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 05:50 PM
Not all sugar relationships are combative, and not all strippers are ripping off their customers.

It is my impression that most are not, and like Rath and fwiiw, I also agree with the thrust of those two posts.


Sexuality is a commodity with a value, like paper money, gold, and fucking soybeans.

Eeeewwww. Sex with members of the Vegetable Kingdom, especially nonconsenting ones, is disgusting.

-Ww

Rath
01-25-2005, 05:51 PM
How do you know the soybean isn't consenting?

Adina
01-25-2005, 05:51 PM
What is this, exactly?

A girl asked for advice about a sugardaddy relationship, and it descends into this monotonous, long-winded verbal onanism.

B-O-R-I-N-G. Let's move on.

And having met one of you (yes, the online persona you've created is that transparent)...your time is yours to waste, but perhaps you ought to reflect upon yourself, and your own motivations, rather than making silly pseudo-psychoanalyses of strangers on the internet. That goes for everyone.

Jenny
01-25-2005, 05:57 PM
Small points:

I don't think anyone is contending that it is okay to "rip someone off" because they skeev you out. I think what is going on here is that a) a lot of people here have very different ideas about what constitutes ripping someone off and b) I personally said that it is sometimes hard to sympathize with customers because they gross me out. Sometimes. As well, I said that there is some merit to the position that dancers have limited responsibilities to their customers - that maybe the "implication game" went both ways, and that customers seem to feel that it is just fine when it is working in their favour, and that maybe that absolves us, to some degree.

And, for god's sake, if one agrees that one cannot compare the holocaust to jacking someone's wallet, why would one go on to insist on the validity of the comparison? It's like saying "I know this is invalid, but..."

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 06:05 PM
How do you know the soybean isn't consenting?

They are always evasive when you question them.

-Ww

Rath
01-25-2005, 06:12 PM
And, for god's sake, if one agrees that one cannot compare the holocaust to jacking someone's wallet, why would one go on to insist on the validity of the comparison? It's like saying "I know this is invalid, but..."

Because one went to law school. You'll be there soon enough.

(The rest of your post is hard to disagree with even for the unduly disputatious.)

NOTE TO ADINA -- From what I read elsewhere on this site, onanism is what this industry is all about.

Wwanderer
01-25-2005, 06:14 PM
A girl asked for advice about a sugardaddy relationship, and it descends into this monotonous, long-winded verbal onanism.
B-O-R-I-N-G. Let's move on.

This discussion has certainly gone off on tangents, but nothing could be more common than "thread drift" (as it is sometimes called) on public net forums and probably nothing has produced more useful and interesting threads.

As for being boring, with all due respect, why in the world do you bother to read net material you find boring? But, isn't the number of participants in the thread and their rate of posting in response to each other pretty clear evidence that there are some who find it quite interesting? If one judged from post counts/rates, it seems that this discussion is far more interesting than the average SW thread...though not to all, of course. Surely "each to his own" is the ideal philosphy for this medium, in the sense that this thread does not prevent anyone from discussing anything else they wish on SW...or even in the same thread!

-Ww

LilRogueVixen
01-25-2005, 07:05 PM
well i want a sugardaddy or sugarmommy. i know, eww :eye-poppi, and gosh the whole thing just seems so dangerous!!

anyway, people should stop misleading people. don't try to get in bet with strippers for free, and don't try to take custy's money for no reason.