View Full Version : Here's the thanks we get in the Muslim world ...
Melonie
01-17-2005, 07:25 PM
yeah, right ! get this ....
(snip) They note that the al Qaeda communiqué is unprecedented because of three ground-breaking features:
1. Osama bin Laden’s organization has never before publicly announced an inquiry into the death or capture of any of its people – and certainly not its findings.
2. Al Qaeda has never openly admitted to operating in Lebanon, nor was Al Masri ever named as one of its own. This was also the organization’s first claim of a foothold in a Palestinian refugee camp anywhere.
3. Al Qaeda has never before sworn to avenge the loss of any of its top men; nor threatened openly to liquidate the leaders of a fellow terrorist or Muslim organization.
The statement is therefore taken as a declaration of war by the global jihadist al Qaeda on the Palestinian Fatah for control of Ein Hilweh, a strategic location commanding South Lebanon’s Mediterranean coast. It was issued the day that the new Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas was sworn in to take Arafat’s place in Ramallah. Abbas faces the challenge of asserting his leadership over all parts of the Fatah movement, from the outlawed factions in Lebanon to the violent Al Aqsa Martyrs (Suicide) Brigades and Tanzim arms rampant in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Failure to do so will seriously undermine his authority and destabilize his regime. (snip)
BigGreenMnM
01-17-2005, 08:01 PM
:::edit by mods:::
sorry mel,your boobs are way to big for you to know this much.
:::::edit by mods::::
Farrah_Holiday
01-18-2005, 04:28 AM
Sorry Farrah.
But the Quran says to kill me and mine, and everyone like me,or even close.
Is that true or false,black or white??
Dont be PC.(I already know the answer)
Re-write your Quran,much like we,as christians,have re-written the Bible,then maybe we can talk.
Exclude the part where it says to kill alll none belivers,even wait in ambush(defines terrorism imo), would be my suggestion.
Keep raising generations to belive that "we"are the "devils" or the "infidals",and we will remain on different sides of the battle lines.
Much as it has been for 2000 years.
"Let it be written,let it be done"(Yul Brenner)
Please let me know when the last time was that you actually picked up the Quran and read it ? Then I would like to know where you read that the Quran said "you should be killed "
Also, the Quran is not MINE to rewrite..LOL I mean really come at me with
a better arguement than that !
We are talking about religious choices..period.
Most muslims are peace loving individuals as are most christians. The problem lies with a handful of uneducated or miseducated individuals.
Before I am claimed any religion, I was born a human being and thats where my loyality lies.. with humanity.
Freedom of religion is one of the founding principles of our country. I just find it rather amusing that the same people that escaped judgement are now the exact same people who are doing the judging.
My family ( and extended family) is made up of many races and numerous religious beliefs. I have been a member if this forum for quite sometime and I have quietly sat back while others have made very negative and hateful comments about muslims. Believe me when I say there are members of this board who are muslim as well and we read Political Poo in totally shock:O at the racism and bigotry . What happened to being tollerant ??
I believe we all have something constructive to add to this world without bashing another's race or religion in the process.
There is a difference is debating and making personal attacks.
BigGreenMnM
01-18-2005, 07:08 AM
Please let me know when the last time was that you actually picked up the Quran and read it ? Then I would like to know where you read that the Quran said "you should be killed "
I will admit its been about 10 years since i tried to read it cover to cover.
Heres a couple of the sarahs you requested.
47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended.
9:73 O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed.
The islamic religion,know it or not,will be raising generations of terrorist against the USA.
Also, the Quran is not MINE to rewrite..LOL I mean really come at me with
a better arguement than that !
We are talking about religious choices..period.
Most muslims are peace loving individuals as are most christians. The problem lies with a handful of uneducated or miseducated individuals.
lol i know its not yours to re-write.
Do you at least agree that maybe this should be removed and NOT taught to kids.
Your religion doesnt afford others the freedom of "choice"that you refere to.They offer death,not peace,and rewards to those that take out as many "devils"as possible.
Freedom of religion is one of the founding principles of our country. I just find it rather amusing that the same people that escaped judgement are now the exact same people who are doing the judging.
My family ( and extended family) is made up of many races and numerous religious beliefs. I have been a member if this forum for quite sometime and I have quietly sat back while others have made very negative and hateful comments about muslims. Believe me when I say there are members of this board who are muslim as well and we read Political Poo in totally shock:O at the racism and bigotry . What happened to being tollerant ??
I believe we all have something constructive to add to this world without bashing another's race or religion in the process.
There is a difference is debating and making personal attacks.
My problem isnt personal,my problem is with the Quran,and all that follow it under its current wording.
This is the same war thats been going on for 2000 years.
Melonie
01-18-2005, 08:18 AM
The islamic religion,know it or not,will be raising generations of terrorist against the USA.
yes, and while we're talking about generational values, the USA stopped raising "Americans" as framed by the founding fathers about 50 years ago. Since that time the US Supreme Court and liberal society have gradually made sure that "Christian Values" occupied a smaller and smaller role in the curricula of American schools. Islamic fundamentalists made no such changes over the same 50 years, and if anything placed even more emphasis on teaching their children extreme fundamentalist values.
AvaAngel
01-18-2005, 08:25 AM
Unless you two are willing to be seen exactly the same as say... Pat Robertson then you shouldn't be viewing all Muslims the same as terrorist. The hardcore rightwing in this country are just as bad. They teach kids and adults to hate gay people as well as anyone not a member of the christian church. They teach violence in thought, word and actions. Fundlmentalist Christians are no better than fundlementalist muslims. Not one bit better.
"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992
"The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement...We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America." --Pat Robertson,"The 700 Club," September 27, 1993.
also MnM your Quaran quote is out of context. Did you cut and paste it off a website? If so can you maybe add the link so we can see where it came from?
Its really just so sad to see people haboring so much hate for any culture and a religion that they clearly know little to nothing about. That goes for Americans who are now anti muslim as well as people from other cultures who have become more anti- US.
Wwanderer
01-18-2005, 08:59 AM
Since that time the US Supreme Court and liberal society have gradually made sure that "Christian Values" occupied a smaller and smaller role in the curricula of American schools.
A fairly vague generalization but roughly accurate, imo. This has had many consequences, among them the vast growth in the exotic dancing industry (and all forms of commercial sex) over the last 50 years and the tolerance for public sexuality and diverse sexual life styles that allows net communities such as SW to exist.
"Be careful what you wish for."
-Ww
BigGreenMnM
01-18-2005, 09:00 AM
Unless you two are willing to be seen exactly the same as Jimmy Swaggart or Pat Robertson then you shouldn't be viewing all Muslims the same as terrorist.
I dont think they are one and the same.
I do think the Quran has been used as justifacation by terrorist.
I also think that MOST terrorist acts in the last 20 years has been for the most part,islamic fundies who follow the Quran.
Is this true or false??
Answering doesnt make you anti muslim,just factual.
The hardcore rightwing in this country are just as bad. They teach kids and adults to hate gay people as well as anyone not a member of the christian church. They teach violence in thought, word and actions. Fundlmentalist Christians are no better than fundlementalist muslims. Not one bit better.
Well,we agree about the right wing fundies,on both sides.
Funny that you mentioned Muslim and Christians,you do know BOTH religions are anti gay right?
also MnM your Quaran quote is out of context. Did you cut and paste it off a website? If so can you maybe add the link so we can see where it came from?
Then put it in context,please!!
You supply the info and maybe you will belive it.
I posted the sarahs we were talking about.I dont think its out of context.
Its really just so sad to see people haboring so much hate for any culture and a religion that they clearly know little to nothing about.
Hey im willing to except anyone as my neighbor.Just dont try to kill me or teach your children to kill me because im the devil!!!!
Muslims
catholics
KKK
Black Panthers
NAMBLA
etc
All these groups currently have legal rights to exist.Doesnt mean I agree with them.If i dont agree with thier beliefs,it doesnt make me a "hater" or make my beliefs homophobic or obsolete.
AvaAngel
01-18-2005, 09:19 AM
I think I was pretty clear that terrorists misuse the Quaran.... but lets not forget the fundy christians misuse the bible to hate gays. Both are equaly wrong.
I'm just curious to where you pulled the Quaran quote from because I notice that lots of anti muslim sites take Quaran quotes and post them out of context.
Ok.. so I got out my Quaran from the back of my book shelf and looked up the passages just before and just after one that was quoted above. Here is it is incontext. I think it shows how the one section is viewed as violence but in context it is a bit different.
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
047.001 Those who reject Allah and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah,- their deeds will Allah render astray (from their mark).
047.002 But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
047.003 This because those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
047.005 Soon will He guide them and improve their condition,
047.006And admit them to the Garden which He has announced for them.
047.007 O ye who believe! If ye will aid (the cause of) Allah, He will aid you, and plant your feet firmly.
Farrah_Holiday
01-18-2005, 10:44 AM
lol i know its not yours to re-write.
Do you at least agree that maybe this should be removed and NOT taught to kids.
Your religion doesnt afford others the freedom of "choice"that you refere to.They offer death,not peace,and rewards to those that take out as many "devils"as possible.
Two words Christian Crusade...
Do you remember that ?? This is a war thats been going on for years, the debate over religion. The my God is better than your God mentality will get us no where in a modern society. I think if the time were really taken to read and educate ourselves about religions, we would see more simularities than differences.
Let us not forget that the SAME people who are responsible for 9-11 are the same group of people that are terrorizing their fellow muslims .
Insanity is insanity regardless of religion or race.
I honetly think you need to take the time to reread the Quran.
Let me know when you're finish, so we can have a REAL debate.;)
Wwanderer
01-18-2005, 11:52 AM
Surely any even modestly objective survey of history will reveal that virtually any sort of behavior, good or bad, can be motivated and supported by some reading of the holy writings of any of the world's major religions...and, in fact, has been at some point by someone. Imo, it is not the words in those books but the feelings and thoughts in the hearts and minds of people that cause the world so many needless problems.
Wouldn't it be more productive if "good", peaceloving, well intentioned Christians devoted their attention and efforts to dealing with the hateful and hurtful distortions of their own faith instead of criticizing the failings of Muslims...and vice versa...and substitute in the names of the other "great" religions?
-Ww
Farrah_Holiday
01-18-2005, 11:57 AM
^ Exactly !!
Adina
01-18-2005, 11:59 AM
Lest we interpret religious texts literally...let's take a look at the Old Testament. Here's what Melonie's boyfriend Michael Moore had to say to Dr. Laura Schlesinger:
Dear Dr Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the oder is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed posess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine fells that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev.11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I didn't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the alter of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27 How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread. (Cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Michael Moore
BigGreenMnM
01-18-2005, 12:22 PM
lol great post Adina.
Moore is such a Re Re.
AvaAngel
01-18-2005, 01:11 PM
what is a re re ?
BigGreenMnM
01-18-2005, 01:14 PM
a retard with a stutter and a lisp..
AvaAngel
01-18-2005, 01:39 PM
He may not be everyones cup of tea but Moore is hardly retarded.
Melonie
01-18-2005, 01:51 PM
Here's what Melonie's boyfriend Michael Moore had to say ...
Somebody hasn't been remembering my posts, obviously. If I have any "affection" for Michael Moore whatsoever, it's that he serves as such a perfect focal point / uber-liberal poster boy / conservative target .
Oh, BTW here's some more Tsunami announcements courtesy of prominent Arab media ...
January 11, 2005
'These nations sinned, lied and were infidels'
Tsunami conspiracy theories in the Arab media translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute
“If people are remiss in implementing God’s law and in being zealous and vengeful for His sake, Allah sets his soldiers in action to take revenge.
The oppression and corruption caused by America and the Jews have increased. Have you heard of these beaches that are called ‘tourists’ paradise’?
You have all probably heard of Bangkok. We read about it and knew it as the centre of corruption on the face of this earth. Over there, there are Zionist and American investments.
Over there they bring Muslims and others to prostitution. Over there, there are beaches which they dubbed “tourists’ paradise” while only a few metres away the locals live in hell on earth.”
Sheik Ibrahim Mudeiris,
Friday sermon on Palestinian Authority TV
(December 31, 2004)
“Whoever reads the Koran, given by the Maker of the World, can see how these nations were destroyed.
There is one reason: they lied, they sinned and were infidels. Whoever studies the Koran can see this is the result . . . These countries in which these things occurred — don’t they refrain from adopting Allah’s law, which is a form of heresy? Man-made laws have been chosen over Allah’s law, which has been deemed unsuitable to judge people?!
Whoever does not act according to Allah’s law is a heretic — that’s what Allah said in the Koran. Don’t these countries have witchcraft, sorcery, deceitfulness and abomination?”
Ibrahim al-Bashar,
adviser to Saudi Arabia’s Justice Minister,
al-Majd TV channel
(January 5, 2005)
“These great tragedies and collective punishments that are wiping out villages, towns, cities and even entire countries are Allah’s punishments of the people of these countries, even if they are Muslims.
Some of our forefathers said that if there is usury and fornication in a certain village, Allah permits its destruction. We know that at these resorts which unfortunately exist in Islamic and other countries in South Asia, and especially at Christmas, fornication and sexual perversion of all kinds are rampant. The fact that it happened at this particular time is a sign from Allah. It happened at Christmas when fornicators and corrupt people from all over the world come to commit fornication and sexual perversion.”
Fawzan al-Fawzan,
professor at al-Imam University, Saudi Arabia,
al-Majd TV
(December 31, 2004)
“People must ask themselves why this earthquake occurred in this area and not in others . . . Whoever examines these areas discovers that they are tourism areas. Tourism areas are areas where the forbidden acts are widespread, as well as alcohol consumption, drug use, and acts of abomination . . . These areas were notorious because of this type of modern tourism, which has become known as ‘sex tourism’.
After the trafficking in drugs and trafficking in weapons, comes ‘sex tourism’, in which prostitution and sexual perversion are traded. They even traffic in children . . . Young children that are used for sexual perversions.
Don’t they deserve punishment from Allah?!”
Sheik Yousuf al-Qaradhawi,
Friday sermon on Qatar TV
(January 7, 2005)
Adina
01-18-2005, 08:07 PM
Somebody hasn't been remembering my posts, obviously. If I have any "affection" for Michael Moore whatsoever, it's that he serves as such a perfect focal point / uber-liberal poster boy / conservative target .
::) Somebody else doesn't get a tounge-in-cheek jibe. *sigh*
I want you guys to know that this is one of the longest threads we've had without deteriorating to insults and shit slinging. Five pages of real discussion! You guys are great!
Melonie
01-19-2005, 08:16 AM
Somebody else doesn't get a tounge-in-cheek jibe. *sigh*
Michael Moore is one of the extremely few guys that I would actually refuse to take money from iin a club LOL !
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 11:30 AM
Michael Moore is one of the extremely few guys that I would actually refuse to take money from iin a club LOL !
Really Mel ?? Unless the guy is a child rapist or something horrid like that, I'd never turn down money..LOL;)
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 03:48 PM
I like Mike Mike Moore. I think he is doing a great job of waking people up and getting them interested in important issues. Overall, I think there is way too much apathy in the world.
I also know from personal experience, that the things quoted from the Islamic extremist media are NOT the way that most Islamic people feel.
Its really too bad that some people round here cant separate the extremist views from the majority. The truth is a few people who call themselves Muslim hate America but most do not. I should know I myself was raised in a Muslim household. I also want to say that I was offended by some of the things Melanie and GreenMnm posted here. :'(
Today as an adult I am not a devote follower of any religion because I have found good in so many... I consider myself spiritual and attend an interfaith church. I'd like to suggest that some of the people here who harbor hate, dislike or even just lack of understanding of others to try an interfaith church from time to time. It will really open your eyes and hopefully your heart too
:peace:
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 04:16 PM
I also know from personal experience, that the things quoted from the Islamic extremist media are NOT the way that most Islamic people feel.
I would beg to differ and offer many continents as examples full of islamics who not only dislike Americans,but hate us.We top thier hit list.
The middle east is a no brainer.You can add most of north Africa to that and alot of european countries.
Check with your local embassy for an updated list of ISLAMIC countries where its not safe to travel as an american.
Why is that??
Its really too bad that some people round here cant separate the extremist views from the majority. The truth is a few people who call themselves Muslim hate America but most do not. I should know I myself was raised in a Muslim household. I also want to say that I was offended by some of the things Melanie and GreenMnm posted here.
Again i disagree.
I would agree that alot of AMERICAN ISLAMICS dont hate Americans.
They are a very small % of americans and an even smaller % of the worlds islamics.
Im sorry if my views offended you,i was trying to be general and not personal.
lestat1
01-19-2005, 04:56 PM
Well I dated a Muslim woman for about a half a year. There was no debating with her on religion, politics, culture, any of it. All of these things, in her country (Algeria), are based on Islam. From her (and her people's) perspective: Islam is perfect and infallible. Thus, their laws, culture, traditions, beliefs, etc. are all perfect and infallible. There is no room for debate that perhaps their religious teachings could be modernized, or updated to incorporate more modern views. The fault, because Islam is perfect, clearly lies with all other faiths. This thinking there prevents any change. The society, laws, etc. are stagnant and cannot change, because to do so is to invalidate the idea that Islam is perfect. Doing that is unthinkable, blasphemous, and ridiculous. It was maddening to discuss anything serious with her because of this thinking....and here's the best part: in her country, she was considered a liberal and an open-minded thinker! :O
Now maybe my experience with one person was not representative of the people as a whole. Maybe it's just Algeria, which has been in a state of civil war for a long time and so things are really bad over there. I don't have enough information to come to an informed opinion, but that experience dating her (and having a lot of international friends that for the most part, were just hate-filled) did change my opinion on something. I left college a lot more close-minded than when I entered it!
My current thinking is perhaps an over-simplification, but Islam today is a bit like Christianity in the dark ages. Islam is fairly new, compared to the other major religions, and just has some developing to do. Christianity went through some friggin' dark, intolerant, cruel periods (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Witch-hunts - lol). It took time to evolve and develop, and even still has some work to do. Give Islam another 700 years, then compare it to the Christianity of today, and they'll probably be similar. These things take time. The frustrating thing is watching societies repeat all the mistakes of the past (I mean does any Christian group point to the Crusades as if it were a good idea!?).
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 05:46 PM
I would beg to differ and offer many continents as examples full of islamics who not only dislike Americans,but hate us.We top thier hit list.
I am amazed that you feel you know more about a religion and a culture than someone such as myself who is a member that culture and was raised in that religion.
Im sorry if my views offended you
I'm afraid that I doubt that is true based on your comments, but I said what I wanted about this subject so...... I'll just end my comments by saying I hope someday you are free of the various discriminations that seem to haunt you.
:peace:
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 05:48 PM
I would beg to differ and offer many continents as examples full of islamics who not only dislike Americans,but hate us.We top thier hit list.
The middle east is a no brainer.You can add most of north Africa to that and alot of european countries.
Check with your local embassy for an updated list of ISLAMIC countries where its not safe to travel as an american.
Why is that??
Im sorry if my views offended you,i was trying to be general and not personal.
I would't say Islamic countries are full of Muslims that hate America or Americans. The same psychos that terrorize us are the same terrorist that
terrorize citizens of many Middle East and Asian countries. Remember all of the mass graves that were found in Iraq ??
Why do you think so many Middle East, European and North African countries dislike the US ? Is this your personal feelings or do you have quotes from articles to back up that statement too ? We are all entitled to our feelings, I'm just asking out of curiosity.
Thats very big of you to offer an apology.:) Generalizing is never a good idea. What if the thread was "Here's the thanks we get in the Christian world" ?
Plus where is this "Muslim World" were talking about ? Last time I checked we all lived in 1 world. Did I miss something ?
Lastly I want to also add that I am glad we can all debate without any drama getting started. I don't post to PP as much as I would like because of
things I've read in the past.
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 06:02 PM
Lastly I want to also add that I am glad we can all debate without any drama getting started. I don't post to PP as much as I would like because of
things I've read in the past.
I hope you continue to post.
We may disagree on things sometimes,but i have learned a few things from your post,on this site and others,and would continue to welcome reading your sane responses to my sometimes redneck/redstate/traditional/old fashioned opinions.
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 06:12 PM
one last thing..... did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians.
I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet..... Kinda said that you think we all hate or want to kill you. It's not true, not at all. I hope someday you will come to understand that truth.
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 06:14 PM
I am amazed that you feel you know more about a religion and a culture than someone such as myself who is a member that culture and was raised in that religion.
Were you raised in America as a muslim or in the middle East??
I think there is a difference.
Do you?
Today as an adult I am not a devote follower of any religion because I have found good in so many... I consider myself spiritual and attend an interfaith church.
Your defending a faith,that you were "raised"in,yet you left the church as an adult??
Im not asking you why you did it,i just didnt know that muslims attended interfaith churches??
Are they still called muslims??
CAN they still call themselves muslims in the islamic churches???
I will admit,i dont know alot about interfaith churches.
Can you tell me if they read from the Bible or the Quran,or both??
I really dont know the answer and would like to know.
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 06:16 PM
Well I dated a Muslim woman for about a half a year. There was no debating with her on religion, politics, culture, any of it. All of these things, in her country (Algeria), are based on Islam. From her (and her people's) perspective: Islam is perfect and infallible. Thus, their laws, culture, traditions, beliefs, etc. are all perfect and infallible. There is no room for debate that perhaps their religious teachings could be modernized, or updated to incorporate more modern views. The fault, because Islam is perfect, clearly lies with all other faiths. This thinking there prevents any change. The society, laws, etc. are stagnant and cannot change, because to do so is to invalidate the idea that Islam is perfect. Doing that is unthinkable, blasphemous, and ridiculous. It was maddening to discuss anything serious with her because of this thinking....and here's the best part: in her country, she was considered a liberal and an open-minded thinker! :O
Just like Christians, Muslim has different views on their religous beliefs.
I don't cover my hair,most of my freinds don't. We ( my conservative Muslim friends) debate about how Muslim women should dress. I don't wear clothes that cover my body...
Oh, thats right I am a stripper...;)
So obviously I have my own rules that I follow. Christians have their own views on the body and nudity too. Remember those are the people who are trying to get rid of porn and strip clubs.
Here is an article from a Muslim woman that goes more in depth about Muslim women.
www.submission.org/noha.html (http://www.submission.org/nora.html)
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 06:17 PM
This is the right website.
www.submission.org/noha.html (http://www.submission.org/noha.html)
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 06:21 PM
one last thing..... did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians.
I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet
Yes I did know that muslims outnumbered the Catholics in the world.Thats why im glad the catholics have more money and bigger guns,or they would be extinct imo,from the same war thats been going on for 2000 years.
I didnt know it was the largest religion though,I thought it was second with catholics as third.I forgot who the big winner is,maybe the Amish;)
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 06:22 PM
I was raised in both the US and various places over seas as a child. We settled in the US because of a job opportunity that was presented to my father.
Yes, there are some differences ofcourse... as is the case with any two different cultures. There are +'s and -'s on both sides. But I can tell you that most Muslims do not hate American and most Muslims think terrorism and 9/11 are horrible and unacceptable acts . In my experiences, I find there are many more American who hate Muslims than the reverse.
I did not leave the Muslim religion per say.... I think I already said why I do not identify myself with any one religion, but if you missed my explanation, it's because I have found good and value in the study of many different faiths.
In an interfaith church usually a spiritual leader of a differnt faith speaks at each service. It is a great way to come to learn and appreciate the similarites as well as the differences.
And it's not just Catholics that Muslims outnumber, its all Christian based faiths as well as the rest of the various religions.
Amish huh, lol, cute ;)
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 06:24 PM
I hope you continue to post.
We may disagree on things sometimes,but i have learned a few things from your post,on this site and others,and would continue to welcome reading your sane responses to my sometimes redneck/redstate/traditional/old fashioned opinions.
I don't take anyone or anything that seriously. We are all entitled to our points of view. I would love to read to your response to the question I asked you in my previous post.
Melonie
01-19-2005, 06:32 PM
like Mike Mike Moore. I think he is doing a great job of waking people up and getting them interested in important issues. Overall, I think there is way too much apathy in the world.
I also know from personal experience, that the things quoted from the Islamic extremist media are NOT the way that most Islamic people feel.
Its really too bad that some people round here cant separate the extremist views from the majority. The truth is a few people who call themselves Muslim hate America but most do not. I should know I myself was raised in a Muslim household. I also want to say that I was offended by some of the things Melanie and GreenMnm posted here.
Definitely not meaning to offend further, but it should be pointed out that Michael Moore received a significantly different treatment after publishing his 'unpopular' material than did, say, Dutch film director Theo Van Goch (who was murdered by 'offended' Islamics).
The problem that I have in separating the extremist views of certain Islamic groups versus the supposedly much more moderate 'majority' view of Islamics is that virtually NOBODY from the Islamic 'majority' is coming forward to condemn the actions of the extremists of their own accord. Not most leaders of Arab/Islamic countries - not most Islamic religious leaders - not even most American liberals (who are expending their efforts lately trying to secure US civil rights for captured islamic terrorists facing Guantanamo tribunals). Granted that a few Arab/Islamic leaders have been forced into doing so (example Saudis after receiving death threats from islamic extremists plus unknown behind the scenes pressure from US gov't/CIA, Palestine's Abbas after Israel locked down Gaza border etc.) but IMHO this is not the same as a freely expressed position. Thus in my own mind at least there is a great deal of doubt and precious little evidence in regard to just how moderate the position of the 'majority' if Islamics actually is !
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 06:36 PM
LOL ! I can't seem to get away from this website now that I am a member.
I thought I'd add the basic "who we are" about interfaith churches for GreenMnm sice he mention he was unfamilar with it. Here ya go :
an interfaith church is an ecumenical church that honors all spiritual paths that demonstrate love and compassion. We honor spirituality more than religion; conscience more than dogma. We are not a religion but rather a community of spiritual seekers expressing our spirituality in a variety of ways.
Melonie,
I am sorry but your statement that not a single Muslim leader has spoken out against terrorist acts is very, very incorrect. I do supose one must be willing to listen to hear those voices though......
here's some links : http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm
http://www.m-a-t.org/
http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html
http://www.mvp-us.org/ (http://www.mvp-us.org/)
http://www.unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm - this one shows statements made by Muslim leaders from all over the world
here is the first on the page:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”
it was signed by:
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
there are more statements like this too.
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 06:37 PM
Christians have their own views on the body and nudity too. Remember those are the people who are trying to get rid of porn and strip clubs.
They are??
What is the muslims view on stripping??
I always though it was most churches,not just the catholics that disaproved?
Melonie
01-19-2005, 06:41 PM
I am sorry but your atatement that not a single Muslim leader has spoken out against terrorist acts is very, very incorrect
I said virtually ... implying that yes there are a few such reports in the news media but they are vastly outnumbered by reports involving much more extreme positions (as I previously posted). I also pointed out that some of the 'fresh' positions being taken by a few Muslim leaders are clearly the result of duress, as they clearly conflict with earlier positions taken before the duress was applied !
For example, here's Abbas refusing to rein in Islamic Terrorists only 4 days ago ! It's really difficult to accept the premise that Abbas received a personal divine prophecy in the last 3 days to change his opinion, versus an Israel's border lockdown plus Sharon giving the Israeli army a free hand to deal with Palestinian terrorists !
IMHO sudden turnarounds like this only add to the credibility problems of Islamic leadership when they do go on record condemning terrorist acts (while doing little or nothing significant to stop future terrorist acts). And trying to use Yassin/Hamas as an example of a group condemning Islamic terrorist acts is hypocritical to the point of being offensive.
The bigger question of course is what everyday Islamic peoples think of all this ...
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 06:49 PM
Why do you think so many Middle East, European and North African countries dislike the US ? Is this your personal feelings
I grew up around the world.I have seen it first hand.
Do we at least agree that there is an aniti american mindset in many countries,held by many people??
I think the reasons are endless and are different in different countries.
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 06:53 PM
They are??
What is the muslims view on stripping??
I always though it was most churches,not just the catholics that disaproved?
Oh you're funny !! LOL
HoldThePickle
01-19-2005, 06:56 PM
I said virtually ... implying that yes there are a few such reports in the news media but they are vastly outnumbered by reports involving much more extreme positions (as I previously posted). I also pointed out that some of the 'fresh' positions being taken by a few Muslim leaders are clearly the result of duress, as they clearly conflict with earlier positions taken before the duress was applied !
For example, here's Abbas refusing to rein in Islamic Terrorists only 4 days ago !
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=966
Please note the various links I left you in the other post, I think I added them while you were typing.
The reason (IMO) that you don't hear more anti-violence statements from Islamic leader here in the US is because the current leadership (Bush and many other Republicans) here in the US WANT you and other like you to fear and hate Muslims. Such emotions from voters supports the present agenda of the President...... Which is not a war on terror (again imo) but something(s) else entirely. They want you to hate me and others like me. It gives them strength. It is no different with people such as Bin Laden who want people in the middle east to hate americans... it gives them strength and support for their agenda.
As I see it, Bush and people such as Bin Laden are more alike than different. They both lie to their people, they both kill innocents in the name of those lies. And they use proganda to gather support.
I might remind you here that Bush's war has killed thousands upon thouseand more innocents than those that died in 9/11. Every one of those deaths is one too many in my mind. And I just don't see the logic in doing exactly what the terrorist did to the US to other countries. It just doesn't make any sense at all.
Farrah_Holiday
01-19-2005, 06:58 PM
Definitely not meaning to offend further, but it should be pointed out that Michael Moore received a significantly different treatment after publishing his 'unpopular' material than did, say, Dutch film director Theo Van Goch (who was murdered by 'offended' Islamics).
These were crazies who did these acts. Sane Muslims did not agree with that morbid act. Just like most Christians don't agree with their fellow Christian blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors who preform abortions.
Wwanderer
01-19-2005, 07:13 PM
did you know that there are more people in the world who are of Muslim faith than there are Christians. ... I am pretty sure there are more people of Muslim faith than any other religion on the planet.....
Not that it is particularly important to any of the main points of this thread, but the above is incorrect. You can find the data in many places, but here is a nice clear presentation:
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Christianity is the largest single religion by a substantial margin. However, there are more Muslims than Catholics, the single largest Christian demonination; perhaps you misremembered some statements comparing Catholics to Muslims?
In a way there are surprisingly few major religions. As shown in the pie chart at the above web site, 90% of the planet's population either belong to one of its four largest basic religions or are "nonreligious", and by the time you get down to, say, the world's 10th largest religious group, you are talking about something like the population of a single (very) large city.
-Ww
lestat1
01-19-2005, 07:14 PM
These were crazies who did these acts. Sane Muslims did not agree with that morbid act. Just like most Christians don't agree with their fellow Christian blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors who preform abortions.
Hmmmmm.
An election tomorrow, all 900 million muslims in the world, Osama vs. the western leader of your choice. Any chance Osama wouldn't win in a landslide?
He and what he represents may not be liked by all, but given the choice between say, the ideals of Kofi Anon and the ideals Osama Bin Laden, I think those 900 million would vote dramatically in favor of Osama. I, of course, have little direct information and just what I've pieced together from everything else in order to lean towards that opinion. I'd like to see polling that indicates otherwise; it would be reassuring and give me a rare optimistic break in my default pessimism.
I read the article on Women in Islam. It sounds like in its purest form, Islam is far from being implemented well in any of the nations we tend to think of as "Islamic." From where does the resistence to change come from then? Do you think it is as simple as fear of the government's reprisal for revolt, should it fail? Then why is America not seen as savior for offering the power to hand them the true, Islamic nation they must be seeking? Are the groups who have twisted Islam to promote extremism really that good at marketing their message that they've fooled the masses of people throughout the middle east? I think there's a missing piece (or eighty) here.... /:O
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 07:18 PM
LOL ! I can't seem to get away from this website now that I am a member.
Its an addiction.Just sit back,relax,keep all hands and feet inside the vehical at all times,and enjoy the ride.:P
I thought I'd add the basic "who we are" about interfaith churches for GreenMnm sice he mention he was unfamilar with it. Here ya go :
an interfaith church is an ecumenical church that honors all spiritual paths that demonstrate love and compassion. We honor spirituality more than religion; conscience more than dogma. We are not a religion but rather a community of spiritual seekers expressing our spirituality in a variety of ways.
Ok that one i had to look up!!!!!!
Main Entry: ec·u·men·i·cal
Pronunciation: "e-ky&-'me-ni-k&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin oecumenicus, from Late Greek oikoumenikos, from Greek oikoumenE the inhabited world, from feminine of oikoumenos, present passive particle of oikein to inhabit, from oikos house —more at
Date: circa 1587
1 : worldwide or general in extent, influence, or application
2 a : of, relating to, or representing the whole of a body of churches b : promoting or tending toward worldwide Christian unity or cooperation
- ec·u·men·i·cal·ly /-k(&-)lE/ adverb
Im not sure i understand the faith.
Is it reccognized by the catholic church or the muslim church?
And what is the view of homosexuals from the church?
I thought the "christian"stance was its an abomination??
Is this an "everytyhing/anything goes"church??
Wwanderer
01-19-2005, 08:13 PM
I grew up around the world.I have seen it first hand.
Do we at least agree that there is an aniti american mindset in many countries,held by many people?? I think the reasons are endless and are different in different countries.
I have spent a very substantial portion of my adult life traveling the world and have seen most of it, in some sense, and my perception of the situation is rather different.
However, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that you are correct for the moment. What conclusion should we draw if many people in many different countries hate America(ns) for an "endless" number of reasons? Or, analogously, if you as an individual found that many people you met in many different contexts disliked you for a whole host of different reasons, what should you conclude?
That it is all their fault, delusion or moral shortcoming? Would it be worth considering the possibility that at least a substantial portion of the problem might lie closer to home?
-Ww
Wwanderer
01-19-2005, 08:17 PM
It sounds like in its purest form, Islam is far from being implemented well in any of the nations we tend to think of as "Islamic."
Is Christianity "in its purest form" well implemented in any culture or society? How many calls for the US to "turn the other cheek" did we hear from even the most sincere and devout Christian groups (or leaders) following 9/11, for example?
-Ww
About Interfaith churches for BigGreen...
I'm pretty sure there are different kinds of interfaith churches. I go to a Unitarian Universalist, which is accepting of basically all faiths, paths, and truths. We have services with Jewish ritual, Pagan ritual, poetry, and good thoughts. The principles that we follow are:
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2. Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4. A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Our church is full of christians, jews, buddhists, hindus, pagans, atheists, agnostics, and even a few muslims.
Just FYI. :-)
BigGreenMnM
01-19-2005, 08:26 PM
That it is all their fault, delusion or moral shortcoming? Would it be worth considering the possibility that at least a substantial portion of the problem might lie closer to home?
-Ww
No way,I think we are more to blame then them!
Our forein polociy for the last 100 years has been anything but"nice"to many countries.
But i think thats been changing for the better over the last generation.