View Full Version : Hiding your SO
FONDL
01-21-2005, 10:23 AM
I find it interesting that there seem to be two types of relationships in strip clubs. Some customers and dancers engage in cooperative relationships, where the dancer puts forth the extra effort to make the guy's visit as enjoyable as possible and he in turn gives her as much money as he can afford, and they both treat each other with respect. Then there are the adversarial relationships where both parties try to get as much as they can while giving as little as possible. I'm sure that there are a lot of people out there who thoroughly enjoy an adversarial relationship but I'm not one of them.
I also draw a distinction between role playing, telling fibs and outright lying. Of course a girl is going to play a role, that's what it's all about. And that role is going to include some harmless fibbing. But when someone, dancer or otherwise, fabricates lies in order to con someone out of money, to me that's crossing the line.
Wwanderer
01-21-2005, 01:35 PM
Wanderer, I'd con you shamelessly and expect the same in return to fulfill your symmetrical ethics fetish. -Ev
"Fetish - anything to which foolishly excessive respect or devotion is given." Oxford American Dictionary.
The definition FONDL gives of "fetish" fits my attitude towards SEA discussions, so I plead "guilty as charged", Ev, but I want both my damn w's or there'll be no tip for you at the end of the night, lady. That's an obssession, not a fetish!
-Ww
Wwanderer
01-21-2005, 01:47 PM
I don't BS girls to maximize my options at a strip club. The women I prefer are older girls with an IQ higher than a granola bar so there is really no point.
The implication that only low IQ individuals can be con'd or hustled is false, imo and experience. Very bright people get taken routinely at poker tables, for example, and perhaps you will agree that a dancer can often successfully hustle a perfectly intelligent customer. In fact, conning someone is more about managing their emotions than about fooling their intelect.
Your trying to be a player in a game you can't win. You may think you are gaining something but ultimately the dancer gets your money. She wins. Guys can BS themselves into feeling less foolish about how much they spend on a dancer by trying to convince themselves that they got more than they paid for but trust me, you got exactly what she wanted you to get.
It is hard to argue usefully with such generalizations that are asserted as though they were self-evident fact, so let me reply in kind and simply say that I am confident that you are wrong based on my own experiences in SCs. Or perhaps I could say that we are both right in that you may only get what she wants you to get but you can greatly affect what it is that she wants to "give" you.
-Ww
Wwanderer
01-21-2005, 02:05 PM
I find it interesting that there seem to be two types of relationships in strip clubs. Some customers and dancers engage in cooperative relationships, where the dancer puts forth the extra effort to make the guy's visit as enjoyable as possible and he in turn gives her as much money as he can afford, and they both treat each other with respect. Then there are the adversarial relationships where both parties try to get as much as they can while giving as little as possible.
I think that this is an accurate and interesting way of describing dancer-customer "dynamics". For me, it immediately calls to mind the Game Theory concepts of the Prisoner's Dilemma type situation and the famously simple and successful Tit-for-tat strategy. I could write a great deal about the topic in that perspective, and have done so elsewhere, but for now I will restrain myself and simply suggest a couple of links:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/
http://askpang.typepad.com/relevant_history/2003/12/evolution_of_co.html
http://www.princeton.edu/~mdaniels/PD/PD.html
for anyone who might be interested,
and for anyone who is really interested, there is the excellent book THE EVOLUTION OF COOPERATION by Robert Axelrod.
There are plenty of Game Theory apps in SCs.
My only quibble with the above quote is the implication that adversarial relationships cannot be ones of mutual respect; obviously this is not the case since it is definitely possible (and usually desirable) to respect one's opponent in all sorts of adversarial situations.
-Ww
Katrine
01-21-2005, 02:51 PM
But please, who the fuck goes around calling themselves an "entrepreneur"? I doubt very much he would have said so outside the stripclub, to a woman who was wearing more than a g-string.
Hehehe, I refer to myself as an entrepeneur as I am financing my own business with investment capital I don't have to pay back to any VC or angel, ala stripping! Now if that isn't entrepeneurial, I don't know what is.....
BUT BUT BUT, when I hear a guy tell me this, its usually a red flag for broke and unemployed...but this is outside of work......
Katrine
01-21-2005, 02:55 PM
Evan, if you regard my equating honesty with respect to be "foolishly excessive devotion," I don't think that I'm likely to spend much time with you in your club.
Why always such threats FONDL?? Trust me, with the right dancer, such as myself or Miss Evan_E, you would never know the difference.}:D
yoda57us
01-21-2005, 03:05 PM
Ww: Sure, people get hustled at poker tables all the time but that's gambling. I'm not talking about gambling. I'm talking about a strip club. I'm not a gambler so I can't really argue the comparision, all I can tell you is that I don't really see how the two have anything to do with each other. Also, my comment was intended to debunk the myth(IMHO, of course) that some guys seem to think that they can hustle dancers-not the other way around. I've seen lots of very smart guys get their wallets cleaned out.
As far as who is right or wrong does that really matter? Your experiences are yours and mine are mine. I'm not pretending to quote from some secret book of SC facts that only I know about. If my choice of words or my use of "generalizations" bothers you that's fine, I'm just adding my 2 cents to the topic.
You may have missed the first part of my post where I related a story, in detail, of the mind games that went on between myself and a dancer. The only way I could have been more specific would have been to post names and dates. In that case we actualy both got what we wanted-at least for a while.
Ultimately, we both seem to enjoy our SC experiences-as different as they may or may not be - for what they are. That's all that matters.
yoda57us
01-21-2005, 03:09 PM
Why always such threats FONDL?? Trust me, with the right dancer, such as myself or Miss Evan_E, you would never know the difference.}:D
I think Kats square on the mark with this one FONDL. Just sit back and enjoy the ride. Don't worry too much about the driver's motivation....;)
gypsy_girlchild
01-21-2005, 03:09 PM
Lol, Katrine...
Really, Fondl, my question is do you like dancers or not? You claim that you are being misinterpreted many times, well say it straight, my man....
Basically you want it straight from a dancer, well she may give it or not, does it matter?
To you it may, but we only have a certain amount of time each night to make money and so we try to maximize that time..
Unless you are the type of guy that says straight out what you want to "know" and how much you will spend, how will we know whether or not you are just another guy that wants company for free... This happens quite often where we are engaged in a conversation and then when talk of money comes around the customer backs off and time was wasted.
What exactly do YOU do to get these girls to open up and do you pay them for their time?
Djoser
01-21-2005, 03:35 PM
Hehehe, I refer to myself as an entrepeneur as I am financing my own business with investment capital I don't have to pay back to any VC or angel, ala stripping! Now if that isn't entrepeneurial, I don't know what is.....
BUT BUT BUT, when I hear a guy tell me this, its usually a red flag for broke and unemployed...but this is outside of work......
This guy was actually smart, motivated, and successful--he was just engaging in a bit of obligatory self-aggrandizement, AKA 'bullshitting', to make himself sound even more so.
gypsy_girlchild
01-21-2005, 03:40 PM
I actually met a guy that through out the night was golf pro, business owner, journalist, and talent scout...
He was so drunk he forgot who had to talked to (myself included)
He even refused to pay my friend for her time (she was fairly new at dancing and began to cry)
well, I stepped in and asked him very nicely if he could afford to pay her, if not I could ask his friends for the money (he had come with his bosses, some small business owners, I beleived them on that one.)
Well, he paid me the money for her plus a nice tip for her time... and I smiled sweetly and let it at that..
Some guys want us to know the truth about them and some get stuck in a fantsy world of their own.
Wwanderer
01-21-2005, 03:51 PM
1 - my comment was intended to debunk the myth(IMHO, of course) that some guys seem to think that they can hustle dancers-not the other way around. I've seen lots of very smart guys get their wallets cleaned out.
2 - As far as who is right or wrong does that really matter? Your experiences are yours and mine are mine. Ultimately, we both seem to enjoy our SC experiences-as different as they may or may not be - for what they are. That's all that matters.
Re #2 above, I completely agree. I have no interest in quarreling and will myself not take it even slightly personally however much we might disagree. Basically I come to the net to find interesting points of view and ideas, whether or not I agree with them. My only quibble with your previous post was that it is hard to engage an idea or claim if it is just stated as a fact..rather than being backed up with some sort of argument. And you are right that I did not see the story about the particular interaction you had with that one specific dancer as much supporting such generalizations.
Re #1 above, I still basically disagree. Of course, you are right that quite smart guys routinely get their "wallets cleaned out" in SCs; I have seen it too, many times. But something else I have seen many times in SCs (and certainly very often in SW posts) is cases in which quite smart dancers get much less than they wanted or thought they deserved for the time/services/attention they provided to customers. Have you not witnessed those types of situations also?
Re hustling in general, the basis of almost all cons is the greed/desire that motivates the target. It is most often greed/desire for money but it can also be for sex or attention or fame or revenge or... The con/hustle manipulates this emotion in the target to make him/her act unwisely or recklessly. This general principle applies at poker tables and in "on the street" predatory cons involving criminal fraud and, indeed, for both customers and dancers in SCs. In SW posts, for example, dancers very frequently assure us and each other (and indeed themselves) that their strong and primary motivation is to make as much money as possible as quickly and efficiently as possible; manipulation of that highly focused "greed" is, of course, the key to hustling them...if that is what you want to do. But, of course, as FONDL rightly points out, that is only one of the possible modes for playing the SC "game".
-Ww
yoda57us
01-21-2005, 05:18 PM
Of course, you are right that quite smart guys routinely get their "wallets cleaned out" in SCs; I have seen it too, many times. But something else I have seen many times in SCs (and certainly very often in SW posts) is cases in which quite smart dancers get much less than they wanted or thought they deserved for the time/services/attention they provided to customers. Have you not witnessed those types of situations also?
-Ww
Well of course I have. I'm just not seeing it as a successful indication that the customer out-hustled the dancer. Most of the time they just didn't want to do anymore dances. Maybe the woman wasn't his type, maybe she didn't deliver what she promised (and if that's the case, she knew before going in that she wasn't going to do what she promised and knew it was a crap shoot as to how much money she would get out of this guy), maybe the guy just ran out of money, maybe he has his eye on more than one girl. I'm certainly not saying that a dancer hits her target $$ goal with every customer, merely that, again, IMHO, they control the environment.
I may be a bit rusty at the games that we are talking about here since I only spend money on favs and I am not really susceptible to any hustle beyond that which said favs have already laid on me. Newbies crash and burn at my feet and most of my fav bartenders warn them not to waste their time on me. My needs in a strip club are simple. I know a bunch of ladies who all satisfy a certain aspect of my reasons for going in the first place. When I want mileage I go see mileage girl, when I want a sweetie I go see sweetie girl etc, etc. I don't really question their motives for acting like my long lost lover every time I see them. I just pay my money and enjoy the ride. Fortunately, due to years of trial and error, I almost always get what I came looking for (of course, you gotta have a plan B).
If a certain type of customer wants to analyze and dissect dancer behavioral patterns and develop strategies to overthrow the status quo in clubs that's fine with me. Outside of outright stealing from a dancer I guess all is fair in the SEA environment. Whatever works is fine. It's just not that big of a deal to me. It all seems like too much work. Life is hard. Strip clubs are a low stress environment for me.
Phil-W
01-21-2005, 06:54 PM
Going back to the original theme, for sure most dancers keep quiet on the boyfriend/husband issue because they know it impacts on earnings. There are several underlying factors that I suspect affect how soon and how readily dancers will tell you personal information about themselves.
1. The dancer grapevine.
Go into any venue frequently and the dancers working there will eventually recognise you as a regular. You will then become the subject of a behind the scenes exchange of information. "This guy's an idiot - he'll believe that buying another dance from you might just gey your phone number." "Hey, this guy's relaxed about things; you can have a nice chat with him."
Get a 'good review' on the grapevine and the chances are that you'll get/be given personal information far easier that if you fall into the 'idiot' category.
2. Stereotypes.
Most dancers adopt a persona when working and most customers going into a strip club never realise that the dancer is selling illusions - they believe their fantasy is real. It's thus far easier for a dancer to conform to stereotype than to deal with a customer on a personal level.
How many customers ever get to talk to the 'individual' rather than the 'dancer persona' - very few I suspect. Again, if dancers realise that you understand things from 'their side of the fence' and chatting about more personal things is not going to make a difference to their income, then they tend to be more relaxed about the boyfriend/husband issue.
3. Befriending dancers.
The friendlier you get with a dancer, the more they trust you with personal information. Personally, I don't have an issue if a dancer has a SO. I'm there to enjoy the view and have a bit of light hearted fun. Knowing what I do about dancers' motivations, I couldn't take things seriously if I tried. I'd rather be honest with a dancer about that and you can only do that if there's a degree of trust/friendship between you.
Perhaps the fantasy for some men is to befriend a stripper or strippers so he can think of himself as superior to other men in her life.
-Ev
As one who'll plead guilty to befriending dancers I have a slightly different take on this. Most dancers won't have their boyfriends/husbands anywhere near the places they work, but they feel the need for companionship, safety, etc. As my friendships are just that; friendships, the dancer gains someone she can trust in her working life without all the issues that her job brings in a full relationship. Me, I've got an entertaining companion inside and outside of her work. Suits the both of us.
Interesting enough there can be a degree of deceit/seperation in the reverse direction as well. I'm friendly with three dancers. In one case I know and like her boyfriend. He knows our relationship is just friendly and he's very relaxed - I sometime give this dancer a lift to/from work and if I arrive before she's ready he and I are quite happy chatting over a cup of coffee in their flat.
One dancer is quite open with her boyfriend that she meets me inside and outside of work, if he rings her on her mobile while she with me, she's got no hesitation about saying who she's with. She is however careful to keep a degree of separation - I drop her off just round the corner from her flat, not at the door.
The third dancer actively deceives her SO. He has issues with the fact that she's a dancer and telling him that she's formed a close friendship with someone she met while working would just make matters worse. As an example, she invariably tells him she's used public transport on the occasions when I give her a lift home.
Final comment about the friendship issue - all the three dancers I know tend to downplay some of the work related issues with their SO's. With someone like myself - trusted companion, but not in a relationship with them - they can discuss those work related issues and get it out of their system without the problems it might cause if they discussed it with their SO's.
In summary.
Not quite the point I started out to write - especially point three, but perhaps an interesting one. If dancers deceive customers as to the boyfriend/husband issue, how much do they deceive boyfriends/husbands as to their work strategies, experiences and friendships formed while working?
Phil W.
SportsWriter2
01-21-2005, 07:34 PM
If dancers deceive customers as to the boyfriend/husband issue, how much do they deceive boyfriends/husbands as to their work strategies, experiences and friendships formed while working?
In my experience, a LOT. I don't even want to start on this, because it's SCARY. :O I actually feel sorry for the boyfriends of some of the dancers I know in high-contact clubs.
yoda57us
01-21-2005, 07:47 PM
Phil: Excellent points even if it wasn't where you intended to go. I've been in all 3 types of relationships that you mentioned with dancers-though not at the same time!
There is something to be said for having a trusted ear that you are not sleeping with or trying to hustle. In my case, when a friendship does develop-an outside of the club friendship- the dances and the customer/dancer relationship stops. For me, the only way total trust is achievable is if you eliminate cash from the equation.
Phil-W
01-21-2005, 08:19 PM
Phil: In my case, when a friendship does develop-an outside of the club friendship- the dances and the customer/dancer relationship stops. For me, the only way total trust is achievable is if you eliminate cash from the equation.
I find the relationship is more defined by the precise nature of the friendship between you and the dancer. I've stopped having dances from one dancer I've befriended because we both started feeling uncomfortable - it's very different showing all to someone who's a friend and not a stranger.
Conversely another dancer who has become a friend would be very offended if I stopped having dances with her - she's made it very clear she gets personal pleasure from it. (Took a bit of getting used to and I'm very careful to make sure I meet her needs during the dance).
This second case goes very much back to the thread about strip venues being Special Ethical Arenas. Although our relationship is purely friendly, we both enjoy a few minutes escapism. Neither of us would dream of behaving in the same manner outside of the venue and both of us are very careful to make sure that the other is comfortable with the situation.
Again, going back to the husband/boyfriend situation, the dancer I've stopped having dances from has told her SO that's the case, possibly a reason why I get on well with him - (see earlier post). I'll give good odds the dancer who enjoys dances with me isn't telling her SO that's the case - an example of deceit cutting both ways.
Phil W.
Katrine
01-21-2005, 08:59 PM
If dancers deceive customers as to the boyfriend/husband issue, how much do they deceive boyfriends/husbands as to their work strategies, experiences and friendships formed while working?
Phil W.
Oh yes, very much. Trust me, its better that way. Some people deceive everyone in their lives, not just customers. My boyfriend doesn't want to know what I've done so I don't tell him. My girlfriends would be cross with me if they knew of my ho'ing activities, so I leave that out. Even after my daddy caught me, I was able to damage control and now he thinks he was wrong, but he was right.
Deception exists everywhere.
FONDL
01-22-2005, 10:03 AM
Yoda, I've known several instances where dancers got hurt really badly by customers who hustled them. Maybe it doens't happen very often but it does happen.
I've also had friendships with dancers. In every case I continued to be a paying customer inside the club but the nature of our customer relationship changed. Private dances became more of a comedy event rather than a sexy one. I actually enjoyed that quite a bit. But then I prefer "playful" to "sexy." And I agree with whoever said that many dancers enjoy having a trusted friend who they can really talk to about their problems and issues. I actually think that's pretty common, especially with the younger and less experienced dancers.
yoda57us
01-22-2005, 02:37 PM
Some people deceive everyone in their lives, not just customers. My boyfriend doesn't want to know what I've done so I don't tell him. My girlfriends would be cross with me if they knew of my ho'ing activities, so I leave that out. Even after my daddy caught me, I was able to damage control and now he thinks he was wrong, but he was right.
Deception exists everywhere.
Amen Kat, Amen}:D
yoda57us
01-22-2005, 02:42 PM
FONDL: I know lots of dancers who have been ripped off. I don't consider that being hustled. I'm not even sure I know how a customer would go about hustling a dancer.
Again, I should probably reiterate that I don't get near newbies at all, ever, so if there are scams going on due to a girl being green(though, in my experience, they don't stay green for long) I probably wouldn't know much about them.
yoda57us
01-22-2005, 02:53 PM
I find the relationship is more defined by the precise nature of the friendship between you and the dancer. I've stopped having dances from one dancer I've befriended because we both started feeling uncomfortable - it's very different showing all to someone who's a friend and not a stranger.
Phil W.
I agree, in fact, that discomfort sometimes hits me in the middle of a dance. I once started avoiding my now retired ATF because it was starting to feel wierd having her get naked for me after we had just spent an hour talking about our lives to each other. Eventualy we decided that it was wierd for both of us...thank God she stopped dancing for me before I met her mother...
Bridgette
01-23-2005, 06:44 AM
Most guys who buy dances, even though they know there's no chance of the relationship going further than that (some don't even want it to go any further), still like to fantasize that we are available and interested in them while they're in the club. Telling them we have an SO kills that fantasy and usually stops the money flow. Some guys actually won't buy a dance from a girl they know has an SO.
Of course ideally all customers would just be happy to get the dances and enjoy the entertainment without needing to create a mental fantasy to go with it, and we could tell them all about our husbands/bfs, but that just isn't the reality.
FONDL
01-23-2005, 09:13 AM
Many of the dancers who have told me about their SO were bitching about him for one reason or another. If I wanted to I could fantacize that the reason she's telling me all this crap is because she'd be happy to dump him if she could find a new SO. Just because someone has an SO doesn't mean that they aren't available.
If I really know a girl well and like her I'd rather think that she's going home to someone who loves her and treats her well than going out with a bunch of jerks whose only interest is getting in her pants. I'm sure that there are customers who are turned off by knowing you have an SO. But I'll bet there are plenty who aren't. Like me.
yoda57us
01-23-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm sure that there are customers who are turned off by knowing you have an SO. But I'll bet there are plenty who aren't. Like me.
FONDL: You've got a point. The problem is a dancer has no way of knowing how full disclosure is going to affect her income with each idividual customer-at least not at first. I think there are plenty of guys who could care less about a dancers personal lives. By the same token, there are many that do-for better or for worse.
Wwanderer
01-23-2005, 11:42 AM
FONDL: I know lots of dancers who have been ripped off. I don't consider that being hustled. I'm not even sure I know how a customer would go about hustling a dancer.
Now I am quite confused. It may well be a semantics issue, a question of what you mean by "hustled" vs "ripped off" vs "conned" or whatever. Earlier in the thread you indicated that customers, including smart ones, often get their wallets emptied, or similar words to that effect, by dancers who know exactly what they are doing and who take advantage of unrealistic customer expectations etc. Probably some of those empty walleted customers at least feel ripped off. Is that what you would call it? Were they hustled by the dancers in question? If so, how does it differ from the situations which you mention in the quote above, in which the dancer was somehow ripped off but not hustled?
Fwiiw, I would consider a dancer to have been hustled by a customer if she gives him more attention (in terms of her time, mileage, enthusiasm or whatever) than she would otherwise have done because he successfully and intentionally deceived her into thinking that she was going to get more money (either immediately or via future business) from him than she actually does and than he ever actually intended to spend on her. It is pretty much directly analogous to those cases where customers spend more on a dancer than they otherwise would have because she successfully and intentionally deceives him into thinking that she is going to give him more attention (again in terms of time, mileage, enthusisam or whatever) than she actually does or ever intended to. Simple, neh?
-Ww
yoda57us
01-23-2005, 12:27 PM
Fwiiw, I would consider a dancer to have been hustled by a customer if she gives him more attention (in terms of her time, mileage, enthusiasm or whatever) than she would otherwise have done because he successfully and intentionally deceived her into thinking that she was going to get more money (either immediately or via future business) from him than she actually does and than he ever actually intended to spend on her. It is pretty much directly analogous to those cases where customers spend more on a dancer than they otherwise would have because she successfully and intentionally deceives him into thinking that she is going to give him more attention (again in terms of time, mileage, enthusisam or whatever) than she actually does or ever intended to. Simple, neh?
-Ww
Ww: Actualy I agree with your example completely. I hate to fall back on the Dancer's age/IQ thing again but I just don't know any dancers at this stage of my clubing career that would invest enough time in a guy without getting somewhat imediate financial gratification to fall for this sort of crap. Still, I'm sure it happens.
For the record, when I say "ripped-off" I am talking about the flagrant act of a guy agreeing to buy dances and then not paying for them when he's done.
I think a lot of what we are agreeing or dissagreeing about here really is just a matter of semantics. As I've said before, ultimately, if we are getting what we want from our SC visits thats what matters. No single approach works for every dancer or every customer.
FONDL
01-24-2005, 11:05 AM
Actually I was thinking of much worse things. I remember one girl a long time ago who got talked into going on a trip with a customer, to Florida I think, and halfway there he robbed her and beat the crap out of her and left her in a motel room with no money. I can think of a few similar examples but that was probably the worst.
I don't expect total honesty in a club and neither should the dancer. But I think there is harmful fibbing intended to either enhance the club experience or for the dancer's protection, and then there are lies whose intent is to deceive. The latter are wrong wherever they occur in my book.
yoda57us
01-24-2005, 01:43 PM
FONDL: Thats a horrible story but, at some point, a woman becomes responsible for her own actions. What would posses a woman to go on a trip with a guy she just met at work-be it a strip club or Dunkin Donuts? I'm sorry but that is just plain dumb. Was she ok afterwards?
FONDL
01-25-2005, 07:12 AM
I don't know what happened to her later. I don't think I ever met the girl, I just remember my ATF telling me the story about one of the girls she danced with. I agree that she was really dumb. The point is that there are guys out there who con these girls every bit as badly as any of the girls ever conned a customer. You'd think they'd know better but obviously they don't always. I think some of the newbies are especially vulnerable. Stripping is dangerous work.
stant
01-26-2005, 09:38 AM
I think that this is an accurate and interesting way of describing dancer-customer "dynamics". For me, it immediately calls to mind the Game Theory concepts of the Prisoner's Dilemma
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/
Dancer-Custy dynamics is not quite "Prisoner's Dilemma" game theory aside from the hardon saying "prisoner's dilemma" will cause for some. But it's somewhere to start. The Prisoner's dilemma game is when 2 prisoners were partners in a major crime and can each independantly either choose to confess and squeal on the other, or stay silent. Any combination of spill guts or zip lips leads to different prison sentences for each. The best outcome for a player results from confession and squeal for themself, and silence by the other. Classic game theory.
Conventional wisdom, ala Ayn Rand (aka Satan), Machiavelli, and punk, would tend one to believe the best strategy is generally the most devious, ruthless, unforgiving, and relentless.
Conventional wisdom would be dead wrong:
http://askpang.typepad.com/relevant_history/2003/12/evolution_of_co.html
Thanks ww for posting this classic "in the face" and absolute rebuttal to the worship of unregulated, ammoral greed as a knee-jerk strategy. Prof. Axelrod held a contest among graduate students to program a simulation of the prisoner's dilemma game and develop the best winning strategy. The solution [TIT FOR TAT] was stunning and arrived at by only four lines of code. Translated into more general terms, here is the optimal strategy to this idealized game:
Be nice. TIT FOR TAT begins each game by offering to cooperate. Indeed, all the top-scoring Prisoner's Dilemma programs were "nice" in this way. It doesn't pay to start off taking advantage of other players.
Be forgiving. If an opponent tries to take advantage of you, but changes their ways, you shouldn't hold a grudge. In a situation in which cooperation wins more points than competition, grudges are self-destructive.
Retaliate. At the same time, it should be clear that you won't stand for betrayal.
Be clear. As Axelrod puts it, in zero-sum games like chess, it pays to be devious, because you want to keep your opponent off-balance. In non-zero sum games like Prisoner's Dilemma, in contrast, you have more to gain from predictable behavior.
Words of wisdom? Maybe. I hold onto it instead as proof that even in the very simplest of non-zero sum games, lies and belligerance can be the tools of failure.
I would like to think these notions are the right ones in life's more complex games. My Y chromosome keeps pushing me to hedge my bets, however.
FONDL
01-26-2005, 11:07 AM
To get back to the original question, I think any girl who doesn't tell every customer that she's in a committed relationship, even if it isn't true, is crazy. Do you ladies realize how easy it is for a customer to find out anything they want to know about you, including your real name and address? I don't care how careful you are, if a customer wants to find you badly enough outside the club he will. You don't have the privacy you think you have, no one does in our society. Don't lead guys on, it's too dangerous. Don't let the money lead you to take unnecessary risks. Yours is a dangerous occupation. Be careful.
Wwanderer
01-26-2005, 02:36 PM
Conventional wisdom, ala Ayn Rand (aka Satan), Machiavelli, and punk, would tend one to believe the best strategy is generally the most devious, ruthless, unforgiving, and relentless. Conventional wisdom would be dead wrong:
Good summary of the implications!
Prof. Axelrod held a contest among graduate students to program a simulation of the prisoner's dilemma game and develop the best winning strategy. The solution [TIT FOR TAT] was stunning and arrived at by only four lines of code.
Right, and there has been much more work in the field since Axelrod's pioneering studies. The results are fairly incredible. Basically, TOT FOR TAT (TFT) totally rules. You can devise strategies that beat it, and you can successfully devise sets of strategies specifically designed to make it do very poorly when all are allowed to "compete" with each other while colluding (in effect) against TFT. However, after decades of computer simulations, no one has come up with anything that does better, on average, in open ("no holds barred") competitions in which all players/programs are trying to win for themselves (i.e., the most realistic model of real/natural situations). Amazingly, even strategies which use TFT most or part of the time and other strategies when playing opponents against which TFT seems to be doing poorly, do not do as well as pure TFT on average.
I would like to think these notions are the right ones in life's more complex games.
As you probably know, TFT's amazing power and simplicity has been widely applied to all sorts of contexts, including the very evolution of cooperative behavior in people and other species. I am convinced that it does carry lessons for all sorts of complex "games", including some of those played in SCs.
-Ww
Katrine
01-26-2005, 05:08 PM
To get back to the original question, I think any girl who doesn't tell every customer that she's in a committed relationship, even if it isn't true, is crazy. Do you ladies realize how easy it is for a customer to find out anything they want to know about you, including your real name and address? I don't care how careful you are, if a customer wants to find you badly enough outside the club he will. You don't have the privacy you think you have, no one does in our society. Don't lead guys on, it's too dangerous. Don't let the money lead you to take unnecessary risks. Yours is a dangerous occupation. Be careful.
Oh for fuck's sake, why then bother with all of these threads in this area????? If the customer has the upper hand no matter what we do, why bother dissecting game theory and creating a SEA for the experience????
Havn't you learned anything from this FONDL?? If we live our livs in fear and stay home like good little girls, aka your wives, then ya'll would never have the opportunity to see us in a legitimite manner. Then you would be stuck going to back alley hookers for "attention". This job is no more dangerous than any other customer service job as long as the dancer is not constantly leading on a bunch of PL regulars. You take it too seriously. If a woman wants to con a man out of money, she can do it in many arenas, and can suffer the exact same repurcussions if he seeks revenge....
Okey dokey, then, I"m just going to have to take a short break from www.guyswhocomeheretohateonstripperweb.com
yoda57us
01-26-2005, 06:58 PM
FONDL: I think your overlooking one thing here. A guy that would become so obsessed with a dancer as to try and do her harm is a psycho. What makes you think a spouse or SO at home would dissuade a psycho? My hunch is nothing would. Fortunately, most strip club customers are not psychotic stalkers. They are just guys looking to have a little fun-like you and me.
I'm not saying dancers don't have to be careful but in my experience most of them ARE careful-even the ones who lie or withhold information about their real-world lives. The fact is I've known waitresses, singers, real estate agents, escorts and Amway saleswomen who lied about their age or marital status or both to better their careers. To me, it simply isn't that big of a deal. But hey, that's just me....
FONDL
01-27-2005, 10:16 AM
Yoda, as uusual I agree with you. But I wan't talking about the psychos out there. You and I have had a lot of experience and understand the game. But it seems to me that there are a lot of immature and socially inexperienced customers who will misinterpret a dancer's attentions and become obsessive. I've seen it happen and I'm sure that you have too. For example, my ATF was stalked by a guy who worked for the local phone company and who was able to track down her unlisted home phone number and her home address through phone company records. The points that I was trying to make are: (1) stripping is a dangerous business, (2) secrecy does not provide the protection that a lot of girls think it does, and (3) while there are some risks that dancers have no control over, some risks they can manage and I urge them to do so. I think honesty about their true intentions and interests helps reduce the risk, whereas leading an immature guy on increases the risk.
Katrine, I have no idea what you are trying to say or why you are so pissed off. I'm not a dancer hater, in fact the opposite is true, I have dancer friends of whom I'm very fond. Feel free to disagree with the 3 points I tried to make, I'm sure not everyone agrees with me, but I've known a lot of dancers who learned those lessons the hard way.
Katrine
01-27-2005, 11:10 AM
To get back to the original question, I think any girl who doesn't tell every customer that she's in a committed relationship, even if it isn't true, is crazy. Do you ladies realize how easy it is for a customer to find out anything they want to know about you, including your real name and address? I don't care how careful you are, if a customer wants to find you badly enough outside the club he will. You don't have the privacy you think you have, no one does in our society. Don't lead guys on, it's too dangerous. Don't let the money lead you to take unnecessary risks. Yours is a dangerous occupation. Be careful.
Once again I quote what you wrote above because it is bordering on threatening, and a dismal prognosis at best.
I've danced for almost 7 years, probably for 1,000 guys, and have never had a problem. Nor has any dancer I have ever known. I have heard of dancers being stalked of course. I have been stalked as well....by my own ex-boyfriend.
Statistically, a woman is more likely to be violated by someone who already knows her. I believe that Lena stated "one in six women have been raped." More than likely the rapist is a friend, boyfriend, spouse, family member.....
The likelihood of the purp being a disgruntled customer is insignificant in comparison.
Once again, I don't condone that a stripper lead on an emotionally fragile customer. But don't threaten me that I will suffer if I tell my customers I am single. Its really something we have to say in order to keep earnings steady.......
FONDL
01-27-2005, 12:08 PM
I'm sorry, Katrine, if you took that as a threat, that wasn't my intent. I've known several dancers who were stalked by customers and I was trying to convey one of the dangers that I'm familiar with. And to point out that unfortunately tracking someone in our society has become absurdly easy. I'm glad that you haven't had a similar experience. I hope you never do.
Katrine
01-27-2005, 04:57 PM
I HAVE had the experience FONDL, as mentioned above. But it was with someone I had an actual romantic relationship with. That does not make the fact that he made my life miserable for months any less compelling than if a customer did the same to a dancer. The point is that it can happen anywhere to us, so there is no point in trying to frighten us. We are well aware of the dangers of sex work. Perhaps the young and inexperienced dancers you seek out do not know this yet, and you get many horrific stories from them.
Try a pro sometime, we have learned from our mistakes, and keep custys at arm's length for exactly the reasons we have discussed in this thread. The type of dancers you prefer are the same types that are prayed upon by sexual predator customers and customers who fall in love with the dancer because she is "so real" and he is without social clue.
Now do you understand my perspective a bit more?
Madcap
01-27-2005, 07:14 PM
:grouphug:
yoda57us
01-28-2005, 10:10 AM
FONDL: I know dancers who have been followed out of parking lots, I've known one or two who have had stalker problems, I've known some who where robbed after leaving the club and sadly, a fav or mine knew a dancer that was killed after se was robbed. The thing is, if you open a newspaper or turn on the news you will see many sad stories of the terrible things that people do to each other every day. Dancers haven't cornered the market on this. If anything, I think a woman who has been in the sex industry for a few years is MUCH more aware of potential dangers than women who haven't.
Being a dancer has it's inherant dangers but the women I know are well aware of these dangers and behave accordingly. I think Kat has a point; If you are attracted to newbies you are probably going to hear more horror stories than if you gravitate towards older, more experienced dancers. To be honest, drama avoidance is the primary reason you will rarely see me sitting with a dancer who isn't AT LEAST in her late 20's.
FONDL
01-28-2005, 11:05 AM
Katrine and Yoda, thanks for your viewpoints. You are both right, in that I spend most of my time with the younger dancers who probably are less aware of the risks. And you're right that it's their openness and perhaps their naivete that I find attractive - frankly I just don't care for the blatant dishonesty that I've experienced from older more experienced dancers. And Yoda, you're certainly right that women in all walks of life face similar risks. The main point I've been trying to make with this thread, and the reason I posted it in the first place, was to raise the possibility that a dancer can reduce her risk by being more honest, especially regarding her possible availability. Maybe I'm wrong.
This entire post actually arose from a discussion I had recently with my current favorite dancer. She's very concerned about a customer of hers who is starting to give her problems and thinks he's in love with her. I advised her to tell him that she's very happy with her boyfriend with whom she lives. Am I wrong? If so, how should she handle this guy?
Katrine
01-28-2005, 07:28 PM
She needs to tell him that she is seriously involved and no longer interested in seeing him and then IMMEDIATELY SEVER THE RELATIONSHIP. Seriously, trust me on this one. If she continues to communicate with him in any fashion, he will see it as hope. She needs to forget about this money and let him go. She needs to go with instinct. Tell her to read "The Gift of Fear." If she has worries about him, its time to end it.
That is how a smart and professional dancer would handle it. There is more money to be found elsewhere, but a stalker is very hard to get rid of..........please pass this advice on to thie girl.......
FONDL
01-29-2005, 07:28 AM
Thanks, Katrine, I totally agree with you. I'll pass that info along. I'm not sure she'll agree though because business hasn't been very good lately for her. I also think she'll be reluctant to hurt him because she's a pretty caring person, although the longer he has hope the bigger the hurt will eventually be. As I've said before, a dancer's job is difficult.
yoda57us
01-29-2005, 06:23 PM
Being nice is something you reserve for good customers who don't get weird on you. If she's that worried about this guy she needs to get rid of him. FAST. It may be against her nature but it's a skill she's going to have to develop if she wants to survive as a dancer.
I have to say FONDL, I've known plenty of wonderfull dancers in their late 20's, 30's and 40's who where sweet, kind, sexy as all-get-out, and not blatant liars or scam artists. I can only speak from my own experiences here but I think your giving older dancers a bum rap. Ah well, to each his own.
FONDL
01-30-2005, 10:15 AM
Yoda, I'm sure that you are correct about there being many very nice older dancers - I too have met some of them. Unfortunately I've also had several bad experiences with older more experienced dancers, enough so that I generally find the younger ones more interesting and enjoyable. I know it's a bias on my part and probably not a very smart one, but all of my best times have been with the younger less experienced dancers. My ATF was 19 and had been dancing less than a week when I first met her, my current fav is 22. I seem to get along very well with the younger ladies who are just passing through on their way to doing something else. To each is own I guess.
As far as the problem customer, I fully agree with you, but I'm not sure she will listen to advice from me on this. Among other things it might sound self-serving. Anyway I think she's smart enough and experienced enough that she'll do OK with it. She's the type who is likely to have problems at times because she is very attractive and very nice to people, which I guess is why she's my favorite.