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kitana
02-20-2005, 09:24 PM
Mark, although your ideas are fascinating; you are not actualy taking into consideration the girls themselves.

We as dancers, are a breed apart. We want what we want when we want it. I for one would not do dances for anything less than $20 each. I do do them for $30 in the club I work at now.

You say there is no alcohol at this bar you want to start. What is the draw then for professional white collar businessmen to take a few clients there? A stage show and a few dances? Not without 21 year Glenlivit, no way!

Besides the obvious T&A, alcohol is a BIG factor in a SC. We have 7 SC's in this town/city alone. The only one that's making any amount of money is the one I work at. The second is a rival 15 blocks away. Then comes the "mom & pop", bars who over 1/2 our girls wouldn't set foot in if they were dying and had to use the phone. Then close to last on this list is the "Juice Bar".

I and 3 other girls from our club went there one night on a weekend after work. There were 14 girls working there and only 5 custys. The top girl there only earns around $150 a night on a good night. (Around here under 21 means no work in a "real bar", so they are stuck.)

How do you propose to get custys in the door without the huge incentive of booze?

Secondly, how do you rationally explain to a girl that just because "Tickles" over there didn't hustle as much, she has to kick in a few bucks of her own pay to give to "Tickles". And how do you really expect these girls will handle the fact that they might have actually made over $1,000, but they will only get $750 of it, and not untill the end of the week?

I can just see the heartbroken faces of the Channel salesgirls now....

"What?" "You aren't going to buy it today?" "You actually have to wait till the end of the week?"

This scheme might break the local economy. Well, at least the upper-scale portion anyway.

I personally, wouldn't go for something like this. I like beign able to "shop till I drop", when I chose to. (which isn't very often.)

But maybe, it might actually fly.

You might want to have a heart-to-heart chat with an owner of a club. See the day-to-day stuff a little better, and try working for a mid-scale club instead of one of the largest.

It's much harder thatn you think it will be.

Kitana

Nicolina
02-21-2005, 12:23 AM
This is a really interesting discussion. Melonie, Katrine, and GnBeret have offered really valuable criticisms. Also, evan_essence, I LOVE the "sociological train wreck" thing...very apropos.

Here are my thoughts (which may echo some of the others')--

First, there is NO WAY that you are going to be able to run a successful strip club with a TOTAL of 10 dancer-owners. It's just not realistic. You might have had a shot with this sort of business model back in the old days of burlesque, or even in the late eighties, when I first started dancing. At that time, many clubs ran only 3-6 girls per shift. Everyone was onstage, usually alone, for 15-30 minutes out of every hour. There was a single stage and NO SUCH THING AS TABLE DANCING. We worked for shift pay plus stage tips. That was all. Even then, most clubs had many more than 10 dancers working over the course of any given month.

Sounds like the dark ages,doesn't it? With the advent of table dancing, which became nearly universal during the nineties, the entire picture changed dramatically. Now clubs no longer had to offer shift pay; the dancers had incentive to work even when they rarely had a chance to go onstage because the rotation was so full. The customers were happy because suddenly instead of three girls they had thirty to choose from....The dancers were happy because if they were motivated, they could make a great deal more money than they had before. And the clubs were ESPECIALLY happy because now, instead of paying shift pay, they could actually CHARGE the dancers to work there. (I won't go into the downside of this trend, e.g. increased competition among dancers, 'extras', more illegal activity, ever-escalating expectations of 'mileage', etc.)

So, given that customers are now accustomed to clubs that feature 20-50 dancers on any given shift.....how will you get any customers in the door with just a few dancers per shift (especially if you refuse to hire incredibly hot MBAs like Katrine?????) Plus you'll be competing with clubs where customers get greater mileage....?

I second what everyone said about dancer turnover as well--you'll probably need some, and its sort of inevitable anyway.

Another huge problem: I don't think you're really understanding the psychology of dancers and dancing. It's not just that we'd feel like we were getting shortchanged at times.....It's more that I think a lot of us are attracted to aspects of the business that would be absent in your establishment: a certain sense of freedom, the ability to come and go as you please and not feel particularly beholden to anyone, the easycome/easygo cashflow, etc.
Dancing can be quite draining at times, mentally, physically, psychically, & emotionally, and every dancer I know has had bouts of dancer-burnout when she just couldn't strap on the platform stilettos for a few weeks, sometimes much longer. These episodes sometimes come on without warning, too; it's hard to plan for them. This is another reason why I think you'd need to have a lot more than 10 dancers as employee-owners. There may be some creative way to deal with this, but I'll let you ponder it.

The only way I could imagine something like this working is if you had 20(?) exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally talented, exceptionally responsible, exceptionally hardy women, representing a wide range of 'types' working with you as equal partners in this business. With no alcohol, you'd probably want to make it 21 and over (otherwise it quickly becomes an after-school hangout and you'll have a lot very unhappy beautiful women on your hands). The idea of a members-only club is interesting, because I could picture something like this drawing a very loyal but relatively small group of devoted patrons....You'd have to offer something a little different--creative stage shows, Pussycat-doll-style nouveau burlesque, perhaps? Then you might be able to charge a higher entrance fee and the women would feel less pressure to hustle the more physically draining table dances. If you do have table dancing, you'd want to charge more than $10. IMHO, the only way to make this work is to sell it as a really upscale thing--high-class, talented women who are worth a helluva lot more than 10 bucks a dance! You know how sometimes people will pay $100 for a sweater at Bloomies instead of buying the same exact sweater for $20 at target, because they just assume it must be of better quality??? I'd play that angle. Otherwise, it will just be far too exhausting for the relatively small number of dancers, and it just won't work.

Well, sorry to ramble. Just some thoughts. Of course it would be nice if there were some business models where dancers who were so inclined could participate more in the decision-making process, and make a more steady if slightly lower income with health insurance, paid vacations, retirement plans & other benefits....of course, taxes could be a problem, couldn't they? Would they be withheld from the weekly checks? Or would dancers be responsible for taking care of all that themselves?

Nicolina
02-21-2005, 12:45 AM
On a different note, Mark: I must tell you that based on some of your comments, were I still dancing I would harbor serious reservations about working for you.
For instance, if you are looking to have dancers as part owners of your business, why on earth would you say that you are "not looking to hire MBAs". I would think that if you were really serious about having dancers as equal partners, you would be absolutely thrilled to have the good fortune of finding someone like Katrine who is extremely hot, and an experienced dancer, AND has a head for business with some serious credentials......Unless, perhaps, you are not quite as egalitarian as you might like to think???? Perhaps you, having no MBA yourself, might in fact feel threatened by such a person?

Also, that comment about how if you get into an argument with a dancer, you feel you've gotten something out of it because "at least she's naked" was downright obnoxious. (Am I the only one who found that offensive?) I have a feeling that you may not respect dancers nearly as much as you'd like to think you do, and this could prove to be a huge problem in the implementation of your proposed business scheme. I get a sense that you feel yourself a noble saviour, magnanimously sharing your spoils with the poor slobs who do your dishes or inspire your hard-ons. Dancers generally don't take well to this sort of attitude, and they can smell condescension from a mile away.
Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

mark45y
02-21-2005, 10:07 AM
Quote "Downright obnoxious."

;D "Cause after all he’s just a man"

I think based on the fact that 99% of SC clientele are males that naked women appeal to men more than women.

I think based on the fact that 99% of SC’s are marketed for men as opposed to lesbians or bisexual woman that men like to watch naked women more than women do.

Personal experience. I had an argument with a female friend and business acquaintance. We happened to have a cam running at the time and she happened to be naked at the time.

Later in reviewing the argument she told me to run the tape and I would see how wrong I was and how right she was about the issue we were arguing about.

I did. I ran the tape four or five times. I know at times I can be an arrogant opinionated ahole. Being aware of this fact I try and improve my sensibilities, political correctness in general and tact (a commodity of which I seem to have little or none). In running the tape I became even more convinced I was right and she was wrong but that I had approached the issue from way out in left field and I could understand why she got angry at me. The side effect of the tape running experience was she is so lovely. So beautiful. Such a wonder to see and watch even though she was waving her arms and stomping her foot and yelling at me. She is poetry in motion whether dancing or arguing. She is a beautiful thing to behold like the sea beautiful in repose or in violent storms always awe inspiring.

Hence my response about naked women disagreements. So if this makes me downright obnoxious so be it.
:'(

mark45y
02-21-2005, 10:53 AM
"We as dancers, are a breed apart. We want what we want when we want it. I for one would not do dances for anything less than $20 each. I do do them for $30 in the club I work at now."


"You say there is no alcohol at this bar you want to start. What is the draw then for professional white collar businessmen to take a few clients there? A stage show and a few dances? Not without 21 year Glenlivit, no way!"

"Another huge problem: I don't think you're really understanding the psychology of dancers and dancing. It's not just that we'd feel like we were getting shortchanged at times.....It's more that I think a lot of us are attracted to aspects of the business that would be absent in your establishment: a certain sense of freedom, the ability to come and go as you please and not feel particularly beholden to anyone, the easycome/easygo cashflow, etc"

Opposing viewpoint (screw the equal ownership idea it is too complicated)

Anyone who dances at my club will make $2500 per week. (5 six hour shifts; table dances, VIP dances and stage dances at my discretion)

Anyone who dances at my club will have health insurance for herself and their children and spouse and two weeks paid vacation per year.

Anyone who dances at my club will have free childcare.

Anyone who dances at my club will have a three-strike policy in terms of getting fired. Two warnings before any action is taken. (Except anything illegal i.e. drugs, theft, prostitution etc).

All of these will be spelled out in writing and given in contract form to each employee.

Sorry no liquor. Reasons: A. A Liquor licensee puts you under the control of a whole set or regulations that are prohibitive to success. B. I have owned or managed over 30 establishments with liquor licensees and I don’t like it.

Quote "You might want to have a heart-to-heart chat with an owner of a club. " I did that. He owns SC’s in Florida, Georgia and Nevada. The salient points I got out of the conversation is – A. There is a move out of Tampa to South Florida because of a number of issues in Tampa. B. I can’t say in writing.

Quote "poor slobs, they can smell condescension from a mile away."

I just don’t seem to be having much luck expressing myself. Not poor slobs washing dishes. A dishwasher walkout or a dishwasher that is unhappy about his job can kill the restaurant. A prep cook the same a bus boy the same. All the small jobs if not done right can kill the business. I paid more and shared the profit because it made me more money in the long run. That’s all. Not because I am a nice guy or savior of the working classes or any other noble idea. I did it just because it works. It makes me more money.

GnBeret
02-21-2005, 02:37 PM
Reply to GnBeret,
Clubs I have managed. NCO club Long Binh Vietnam, Miami bar and grill Bangkok Thailand, Bull Durham’s Little Rock AR., Hot Nuts in East St Louis. I worked for Playboy clubs in Chicago from 1972 to 1974.

Aja... but are any of these STRIP CLUBS? While it may well be true that "a club is a club is a club," strip clubs are the exception to the rule - I know several managers, and to a person they've all told me there's a huge difference between managing "a club" and "herding cats" (which is how they describe their job).

mark45y
02-21-2005, 02:59 PM
Oh hell, if I named the list of clubs that were not strip clubs the list would take a page. Ya, they were all strip clubs except playboy, which was kinda strip club but really defies complete categorization. I must admit I have never herded cats. I have had over 200 female employees in one location but I would never have described my job as herding cats.

Katrine
02-21-2005, 03:38 PM
For instance, if you are looking to have dancers as part owners of your business, why on earth would you say that you are "not looking to hire MBAs". I would think that if you were really serious about having dancers as equal partners, you would be absolutely thrilled to have the good fortune of finding someone like Katrine who is extremely hot, and an experienced dancer, AND has a head for business with some serious credentials......Unless, perhaps, you are not quite as egalitarian as you might like to think???? Perhaps you, having no MBA yourself, might in fact feel threatened by such a person?

Also, that comment about how if you get into an argument with a dancer, you feel you've gotten something out of it because "at least she's naked" was downright obnoxious. (

Nicolina,
Thank you for the kind words and I agree with all of your comments to Mark 100% and many times over!8)

Katrine
02-21-2005, 03:47 PM
I think based on the fact that 99% of SC clientele are males that naked women appeal to men more than women.

This is no longer the case Mark. In my 7 years of RECENT and CURRENT experience, female clientele has been growing almost exponentially. In 1997, perhaps females constituted 5-10% of clientele on a busy night. Today, female customer are approx 30% if not more in a busy medium level to upscale club. Most of these women were NOT lesbians, and many come in female-only groups. Individually they have less spending power, but as a whole they still buy drinks, dances, and tip as much as your average guy , but not as much as an upscale big spender. The only club that defied these numbers is one I worked at that expressely forbid lapdancing for female customers because of some weird law. Still, the club still had occasional female customers.

They are a growing customer base and MUST be considered. Many clubs around the country have changed their marketing strategies to accomodate. "Couples night" is popping up everywhere. Ads now have "couples welcomed" printed in explicit view. You can't ignore this phenomenon.



I did. I ran the tape four or five times. I know at times I can be an arrogant opinionated ahole. Being aware of this fact I try and improve my sensibilities, political correctness in general and tact (a commodity of which I seem to have little or none). In running the tape I became even more convinced I was right and she was wrong but that I had approached the issue from way out in left field and I could understand why she got angry at me. The side effect of the tape running experience was she is so lovely. So beautiful. Such a wonder to see and watch even though she was waving her arms and stomping her foot and yelling at me. She is poetry in motion whether dancing or arguing. She is a beautiful thing to behold like the sea beautiful in repose or in violent storms always awe inspiring.

Hence my response about naked women disagreements. So if this makes me downright obnoxious so be it.
:'(


This comment is not only obnoxious, its simply sexually-loaded drivel and doesn't add a thing to your business proposition nor to the professionalism you are attempring to convey.

mark45y
02-21-2005, 04:06 PM
You aren’t really suggesting that 30% of medium to upscale SC’s customers are women are you?

That would mean that out of 100 customers 30 were women!!! If so is there any other strippers that could give some input on this fantastically high percent. I would appreciate it.

Katrine
02-21-2005, 04:17 PM
30% is a good estimate for a Friday or Saturday night these days, no hyperbole here at all. During the weekdays, I'd say that women comprise about 15% of customers.

All clubs are different regionally, but this is what I have seen in Austin, Houston, San Antonio, Dallas, New Orleans, San Fransisco, Baltimore, and Las Vegas.

I didn't see those numbers in Jacksonville, Florida because it was Superbowl week so we had a huge influx of out of town males. Perhaps my figure is overinflated due to the cities and type of (mostly) clean clubs I've worked. I've also noticed that the clubs I've worked that had the most extras going on were the ones with the fewer female customers. Go figure.........

GnBeret
02-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Oh hell, if I named the list of clubs that were not strip clubs the list would take a page. Ya, they were all strip clubs except playboy, which was kinda strip club but really defies complete categorization. I must admit I have never herded cats. I have had over 200 female employees in one location but I would never have described my job as herding cats.

Fair enough....

Re "herding cats" - not mine, and not meant to be derogatory towards dancers... just best short-hand way of describing difficulties inherent in trying to manage a place where most of the employees are dancers, as for the most part, at least, they're fiercely independent, quite outspoken, very difficult to "make" do anything, and generally just tend to like to go their own way.

miabella
02-21-2005, 05:00 PM
it's all over these boards, in numerous posts by dancers in both america and other countries. there's two things i personally have seen-- people behaving like the stripclub is a 'nightclub with naked dancers for window-dressing', and mixed groups of usually office workers coming to the club the way groups of just males would come in past years. in these two cases, you have largish mixed groups of people coming into the club, not necessarily to get dances. although the office groups, even with girls included, tend to buy dances more readily than the nightclubbers.

i've also seen what katrine mentions, the groups of just women. often straight, sometimes lesbian (varies by region, probably). women are coming into the clubs in larger numbers. they aren't as regular in their attendance as guys, but even on weeknights (not just weekend nights), i've seen increasing numbers of mixed or female-only groups coming by. it's no 50/50 split yet, but it's easily 75/25 male/female overall in a lot of places several nights of the week.

evan_essence
02-22-2005, 08:06 AM
I ran the tape four or five times.That many? Well, I suppose we can forgive this one lapse of professional judgment, considering that, undressed we do tend to become more fascinating for men when we're run forwards, backwards and frame by frame. Real poetry in slow motion, you might say. ::)

-Ev

Nicolina
02-22-2005, 11:38 AM
Here's an idea: your dancer employees should sign contracts for 3 or 6 months, with some penalty for bailing. This could solve some of the problems mentioned regarding dancer psychology, dancer burnout, and dancer turnover. Plus, you'd have a better idea of what was going on from month to month as far as who you could count on and how to schedule dancers to everyone's best advantage.

Lena
02-22-2005, 12:00 PM
First you said that you wouldn't take Kat's advice ("come back in twenty years" - yeah, I'm sure she'll put that on her calendar), and then you said that you hadn't said it. We can all read. I think you owe her an apology.

I get the distinct impression that you have some very unrealistic expectations of strippers. We're mythical, mystical, beautiful, of another world. At the same time, we're inexperienced and don't know what we're talking about. This is an attitude that's gonna get you in trouble.

I can see the burleque dinner theater idea working - maybe with ten owner/server/entertainers and regular one time performers who get paid as contractors, or maybe two people could share one ownership slot.

Something to keep in mind about dancers - we are, by nature, migratory: we go where the money is. That might be your club one week, but it might be the club across town the next week, and no amount of child care, health insurance, etc., is going to keep a dancer at a 500/night club when she could be making 1000/night.

Lena

Lena
02-22-2005, 12:01 PM
Oh, and I agree about female customers. 30-50% on the weekends and 10-20% during the week in the majority of clubs here.

kitana
02-22-2005, 12:16 PM
You aren’t really suggesting that 30% of medium to upscale SC’s customers are women are you?

That would mean that out of 100 customers 30 were women!!! If so is there any other strippers that could give some input on this fantastically high percent. I would appreciate it.


Then you need to get your butt on a plane to where I'm at then, if you don't believe this!

Come to my club on a Fri or Sat night and count the girls there. Out of around 250-300 custys, around 75-90 of them are women. Which is actually over the 30% that was previously quoted.

Kitana

kitana
02-22-2005, 12:18 PM
Something to keep in mind about dancers - we are, by nature, migratory: we go where the money is. That might be your club one week, but it might be the club across town the next week, and no amount of child care, health insurance, etc., is going to keep a dancer at a 500/night club when she could be making 1000/night.

Lena

Couldn't have said it better myself. And that's what I did mean by my comment on the previous page.

Kitana

mark45y
02-22-2005, 12:21 PM
I did apologize on 2/17/2005

"Katrine,
My humble apologies. I do not dismiss your advice because of your age. I was just adding a little Ukrainian humor and I am very sorry that I offended you. Please accept my apologies.
Mark"

If I should apologize again that’s fine I am really sorry to have offended you.

There, OK?

mark45y
02-22-2005, 12:26 PM
My comments on the above posts about dancers being migratory and the other comments about them. I think you are stereotyping dancers too much. First of all I think they are people before they are strippers. If you treat people well they won’t leave for a few hundred a week.

kitana
02-22-2005, 12:37 PM
My comments on the above posts about dancers being migratory and the other comments about them. I think you are stereotyping dancers too much. First of all I think they are people before they are strippers. If you treat people well they won’t leave for a few hundred a week.



Actually, most of us would leave for a few hundred more a week. Especially since we can only do this job for so long. Why not get in, make what you can and get out. That's how the majority of the business minded dancers feel.

It's not a stereotype it's the truth.

Kitana

Melonie
02-22-2005, 04:44 PM
If you treat people well they won’t leave for a few hundred a week.

I have to agree with Kitana on this one. Consider the probability that in the vast majority of cases, dancers can only seriously keep working full time for 5 years at most. After that 5 year time window closes, many of those ex-dancers will be facing the prospect of working at straight jobs which pay perhaps $40,000 per year until retirement age. If your 'few hundred a week' was in fact just $400, that's a total of $100 grand in potential dancing earnings that you're asking dancers to give up during their 5 year dancing career - an amount of money that they could NEVER recoup no matter how much overtime they worked at their straight jobs after retiring from dancing (particularly when you add in the power of compound interest on a $100 grand invested nest egg versus zilch).

kitana
02-23-2005, 01:59 PM
Thank you Mel, that's exactly how I meant it to be taken. ;)

Kitana