View Full Version : Stripping and Prostitution
onlythebest
04-01-2005, 04:25 PM
Gigolos are the same thing.
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 04:53 PM
starting to think their are no boundries, who can really draw the line at whats prostitution and whats "not"? i gave a few examples on the first page, and susan said it a lil better....while susan pointed out the film industry in particular, these lines actually merge over all areas of life to convey that prostitution ideal some of you seem to desperatly searching for.
going into detail would be like writing a world history book, theres too many paradox's and too many examples.
does anyone REALLY care what the difference is between stripping and prostitution (except the obvious-sex lol) thats like working in the call center at the local power company and wanting to know what the difference is between your position and the call center team organiser. lets be honest, theres not a huge difference between "us" and "them" we do what we do, and we do it for our own reasons, NO ONE has the right to say a prostitues "reason" for hooking is a "bad" one,there are no bad reasons, just as their are no good reasons ( for their industry and ours)
there neeeds to be a lot of people getting off their high horse on this topic.
strippers,prostitutes,pimps,porn stars - housewifes. whats the difference. we are all human,
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 04:56 PM
Gigolos are the same thing.
you might wanna expand on that one....same as what how?
how the hell is a gigilo the same as a prostitute ( im assuming thats what your talking about?!) the pimp, is her provider, much the same way as a husband and wife are, but without the ring, and the "relationship" ( then again, not all marriages have a relationship either)
onlythebest
04-01-2005, 04:59 PM
The mentality of "no boundaries" is the perfect example of how and why the strip club industry is going downhill so fast.Dancers are NOT sex workers.We dance,not have sex for a living.There's a world of difference between the two.So long as people think it's all the same,situations like "extras" happening at clubs will occur more frequently,because customers no longer will see us as just dancers anymore.
Wwanderer
04-01-2005, 05:08 PM
With this type of mentality,you might as well give the animals at the zoo the keys to their cages. Everything needs regulation.
This is the crux of the issue (one of the issues in this thread, that is) - namely, do you believe that people need government regulation of "everything" they do or do you think that consenting adults should be allowed to conduct their entirely personal and individual affairs freely? Cultures and countries around the world differ all over the spectrum in this respect. There are plenty of places where prostitution is strictly illegal and plenty where it is legal but regulated and others where it is simply considered none of the the government's business. Exactly the same is true of stripping. If you think that there is no problem with the government forbiding the sale of sex, presumably you would also consider it acceptable to ban the sale of dancing and nudity/semi-nudity as a form of entertainment. Right?
Also,I find that the opinions of the male members a bit biased.Of course, you guys would be for prostitution.
Actually, laws against prostitution affect women far more than men. In most places, certainly most places in which strip clubs are allowed, it is dead easy for a guy to obtain the services of a prostitute (from grubby "skanks" to sophisticated and upscale "courtesans"), even if it is illegal. And if anyone gets in trouble with the law in places where it is illegal, it is the woman in 99 cases out of a 100 at least.
-Ww
There will always be regulation. The question is, who regulates? Owners of property and citizens making choices with their bodies and money? Or will it be bureaucrats and politicians miles away deciding what we serfs shall be allowed to do?
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 05:21 PM
The mentality of "no boundaries" is the perfect example of how and why the strip club industry is going downhill so fast.Dancers are NOT sex workers.We dance,not have sex for a living.There's a world of difference between the two.So long as people think it's all the same,situations like "extras" happening at clubs will occur more frequently,because customers no longer will see us as just dancers anymore.
no we are NOT SEX workers, BUT we work in the sex industry, and the only difference between our "job description" and theirs, is that they have sexual intercourse,and we "dance" ( these days you can harldy call it dancing either)
at the end of the day both of us are getting paid for our "sexual services" be it the actual action of sex, or bodyslide type dances, or no contact dance/"fantasy"
the onle line between us, is one small thing-sex. girls who do contact lapdances and grind the custys groin to get him off, only need to remove his pants and presto-sex. really is just a lil peice of fabric seperating their "bits" and ours.
onlythebest
04-01-2005, 05:40 PM
I do not,in any way,shape or form consider myself one with the sex industry.I do not do lapdances.I do not have contact with my customers.The way I dance now,is the way I have been since I first started 11 years ago.I am purely an entertainer.Nothing else.
doc-catfish
04-01-2005, 05:47 PM
With this type of mentality,you might as well give the animals at the zoo the keys to their cages.Everything needs regulation.
There is world of difference between regulation and prohibition. Legalizing something doesn't neccesarily mean throwing caution to the wind. Prostitution is regulated in legal Nevada brothels. It is prohibited everywhere else, yet there isn't a city is this country where some act of it in some form isn't taking place.
I am absolutely not in favor of having unregulated streetwalkers, the same way I am not in favor of underground abortion clinics or speakeasys serving bathtub gin. The best way to prevent the incidence of such things is to give those who wish to partake a safe legal, properly regulated alternative. Prohibiting something that is undesireable to certain people does nothing to make it stop, esspecially when that something is very desireable to others. Why do you think that strip clubs are still around depsite the ridiculous laws that they have to deal with? Because the demand is there.
Also,I find that the opinions of the male members a bit biased.Of course,you guys would be for prostitution.
What my gender has to with this, I have no idea, considering that I have no desire to pay for sex.
I simply base my view on empirical evidence that prohibition with regards to prostitution (or drugs, alcohol, abortions, gambling, firearms, take your pick) doesn't work, and often exasperates the very nightmare scenario that prohibition proponents think these silly laws will prevent. Think of how well those distance ordinances in Houston, Tampa, and Seattle are working out. Once you prohibit something, you can no longer regulate it, therefore you end up with a very unregulated result.
onlythebest
04-01-2005, 05:51 PM
OK,the way Nevada does it is actually a great way to do it.Away from the city limits and from the clubs.I agree with how that is done.
VenusGoddess
04-01-2005, 05:59 PM
I do not,in any way,shape or form consider myself one with the sex industry.I do not do lapdances.I do not have contact with my customers.The way I dance now,is the way I have been since I first started 11 years ago.I am purely an entertainer.Nothing else.
You may be an entertainer, however, you are an entertainer in an adult industry. If you weren't then you wouldn't care about all of these stupid, cockamamie rules/regs/prohibitions that they put on the adult industry across the board. I am not an extras girl, I do not perform sex acts for money, but I am an adult entertainer...being an entertainer to anyone under the age of 18 would wind me up in jail. ;)
I believe that the industry (all around) needs to be legalized/decriminalized. Prohibitions never work. Remember reading about the National Alcohol Prohibition from 1920-1933? All it created were a bunch of black market thugs...liqour prices up the ass...lots of criminals. All because the people who used to drink, now are criminals for picking up a glass of liqour.
The sex industry will never go away. Never. There are too many men out there who LOVE to watch it. However, I do not believe that allowing prostitution will limit what a "clean" dancer can do. There are some guys that go to the clubs who don't want extras and will stay away from the extras dancers. :shrug: It's a matter of preference. Some guys will NEVER pay for an escort/prostitute, but will watch hard core porn...some guys won't look at porn but will hit the SC's every weekend. Some guys do a little bit of both. By keeping escorting/prostitution illegal, they are simply doing the "illegal" things *under covers*. They are still doing it...just not openly.
I think that if it's allowed to be...the "novelty" will wear off for the select few (like Americans going to foreign beaches and oogling every naked sun-bather). But, it will also open the door for people who once avoided the scene to become more comfortable in not taking part in something that would brand them as a "criminal" with their name splashed across a newspaper.
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 06:01 PM
I do not,in any way,shape or form consider myself one with the sex industry.I do not do lapdances.I do not have contact with my customers.The way I dance now,is the way I have been since I first started 11 years ago.I am purely an entertainer.Nothing else.
an entertainer- thats EXACTLY what stripping SHOULD be about!! about the stage and the performance :) nice work!
otb, im assuming you dance nude/semi nude tho?? and thats no way reflective of the sex industry?? do you still consider yourself a "stripper"? as i see it, this site is called stripperweb ( you pointed that put before to someone else) and if you dont consider yourself part of the sex industry, and strippers are one of the main areas of the sex industry...then...uhhh....you, or me, one of us has an identity crisis on their hands :)
VenusGoddess
04-01-2005, 06:03 PM
In England....the finest actresses are elevated to the Peerage or in some way honored by the crown. Here in the U.S., our finest stage and screen actresses are courted by politicians and have schools and streets named after them.....
....but what about actresses who do nude scenes? Well.... even some of the finest actresses do nude scenes. It's damn hard to name an Oscar winning actress of late who HASN'T done a nude scene.....
.....and how about nude on stage? Yeah....lots of actresses have done THAT, too. Kathleen Turner in her late 40's playing Mrs. Robinson on stage on Broadway comes to mind immediately. How is SHE different from, say, a stripper down the block on 42nd Street?
....and what about sex scenes on camera? Yeah.... even actresses who won't do nude on camera will simulate SEX....
....so then what about ACTUAL sex on camera? ..... Chloe Sevegny gives a pretty thorough blowjob in "Brown Bunny" and wins the accolades of Cannes and still gets on TV wearing designer gowns on the Red Carpet....
....but then what separates Chloe Sevegny getting paid to give a hummer in an art film like "Brown Bunny" and....say.... one of the porn stars in Seymour Butts videos?
....and you can LEGALLY get paid to give bj's all day long in San Fernando Valley in any one of the thousands of porn studies there (well.....hundreds, anyway), but if you go visit a traveling salesman from Duluth who's staying at the local Marriott and give HIM a hummer for $100, you're busted!!! I wonder if it's legal if he video tapes it?????
Since Monica Lewinski was getting paid to be a While House Intern..... nah.... old news.... let's don't go there.....
Gawd.... the hypocracy goes on and on and on.....
Oh, THAT'S not adult entertainment...because, you know, it's ACCEPTED. ;)
It's ok for a man to pick up a copy of FHM, Playboy, etc...but he's a pervert if he likes SC's or porns.
I also find it extremely funny that the same actresses that get butt naked in front of MILLIONS of people in the name of "theatre" have the audacity to call strippers "immoral" for taking off their clothes for a club full of people.
One word comes to mind: HYPOCRITE. ;)
onlythebest
04-01-2005, 06:04 PM
I am an entertainer.Showgirls are entertainers.That's where the roots of of this industry came from.
The_Oceans
04-01-2005, 06:06 PM
I do not,in any way,shape or form consider myself one with the sex industry.I do not do lapdances.I do not have contact with my customers.The way I dance now,is the way I have been since I first started 11 years ago.I am purely an entertainer.Nothing else.
OTB, this is the same divisive attitude I used to see in dancers when I first started going to strip clubs: Bikini dancers saw themselves as superior to topless/nude dancers because they didn't show their tits or "pussies". Topless dancers saw themselves as superior to nude dancers because they didn't show their "pussies". Dancers in clubs that didn't offer table/lap dances saw themselves as superior to those in clubs that did because they didn't have to touch their customers.
In the end though, differences between square centimetres of clothing or quantity & location of physical contact don't change that exotic dancing/stripping/whatever you want to call it, is a sexually-oriented business.
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 06:08 PM
uuuhhhhhh actually....as i understand it, the root of stripping come from burlesque ( sp).... showgirls is just the first modern day stripping, taking burlesque to group show/theatre etc, then what we have today eventualted form that.
mehhh this subject is going no where.
we can argue all day, no one will be right, no one will be wrong.
such is life :0
VenusGoddess
04-01-2005, 06:10 PM
I cleaned up the thread a bit. Please refrain from arguing. If this continues, it will be closed again.
Thanks...carry on. ;)
Wwanderer
04-01-2005, 09:31 PM
Imo, the perspective of different cultures is often interesting/revealing: In traditional Japanese culture...Hey! How did everone know that I was going to bring up Japan? And why all those groans?!
Anyway, in old Japan, the boundaries between what might be called "erotic entertainment" (including dance), other more purely artistic forms (also including dance), social hostessing, paid companionship, simple sexual prostitution and high level courtesan work were very blurry and vague, or even entirely absent. Imo, it may well be that the esteem and moderately high social status accorded women working in this "floating world" of the old style Japanese "adult entertainment industry" was a direct result of this lack of distintion between women who entertained men by singing, dancing, playing the koto and so forth and those (often the same) women who provided entertainment on the futons.
-Ww
mermaidnz
04-01-2005, 09:43 PM
yup, geisha girls....RENOUNED for what they did, in fact it was an massive honour to be a great geisha.
Wwanderer
04-01-2005, 10:24 PM
yup, geisha girls....RENOUNED for what they did, in fact it was an massive honour to be a great geisha.
Right, the very top geishas in mideval Japan might be compared to superstar actresses or singers in modern western culture, someone like Angelina Jolie or Brittney Spears etc. They were similarly famous, honored, rich and respected (by many at least). Now such geisha superstars were surely not "turning tricks" with any guy who could muster enough yen; they were often the exclusive mistress to one of the richest and most powerful men in the country...or may have gotten along without any such "patron" at all. However, the important point, imo, is that they were considered to be a part of the same industry and profession as those women whose work was more akin to what we would today call an escort or prostitute.
In other words, the sort of seemingly arbitrary and unfair distinctions/discriminations which susan listed in a post above do not have to exist; it all depends on how we think about these things and the extent to which we fall into the "I'm better than them" patterns of thinking.
-Ww
velvet
04-01-2005, 11:06 PM
In the end though, differences between square centimetres of clothing or quantity & location of physical contact don't change that exotic dancing/stripping/whatever you want to call it, is a sexually-oriented business.
well put. like it or not we ARE in the sex business. any way you slice it. it is what it is. extras or not, clean or dirty. sex trade is what we do. period. our escort sisters ARE a part of us.
screaminpeachez
04-01-2005, 11:07 PM
In many Middle Eastern societies any form of entertainer is considered "lowly"
the bellydance community has suffered in the country of it's very origin
here is an exert from
http://www.bellydanceny.com/travel_article.html
" But its performers and aficionados are worried for its future in the country where it began. During the past 20 years, the rise of political Islam in the Middle East has led to more puritanical attitudes on morality in general, creating a backlash against belly dance. Fewer hotels, clubs and Nile River boats are offering the live performances, and more and more Egyptian women are shunning the dance because of Islamic disapproval. "
to add more
"Dancers are viewed as particularly shameful because, unlike "decent women," they "use their bodies to make a living, instead of hiding them as much as possible," she says "
Everyone's a critic!!!
Katrine
04-02-2005, 03:00 AM
In many Middle Eastern societies any form of entertainer is considered "lowly"
the bellydance community has suffered in the country of it's very origin
"Dancers are viewed as particularly shameful because, unlike "decent women," they "use their bodies to make a living, instead of hiding them as much as possible," she says "
Everyone's a critic!!!
Bellydancers and musicians have never been "respectable" in the middle east but there was a golden age, in Egypt especially, when anyone with money wanted the biggest band and the best bellydancers at their kids weddings and their parties. As long as no one married the artists. Thus most dancers, actors, and musicians came from artistic extended "families". Then they became celebrities like here. 100 years ago actors, dancers, and musicians were also considered lowly in the west.
There was progress, but there has been lots of conflict due to politicization in the last few years.
Madcap
04-02-2005, 03:13 AM
100 years ago actors, dancers, and musicians were also considered lowly in the west.
She's totally right. When John Wilkes Boothe axed President Lincoln, nobody was surprised. To put this in the modern day context, it would be like Tom Hanks killing the president. Boothe was a star. But since he was an actor (one of those 'ill reputed' people) Nobody batted a lash.
I think it's because they used to move around a lot, like they still do, but we keep track of them now (For what reason, i have no clue). It seems like, history speaking, everyone who moves around a lot get's a bad rap. Gypsies, Jews (In the middle ages at least, seems their whole 'penny pinching' rap comes from the middle ages since most of the famous ones were moneylenders), circus folk, palm readers, people who used to fix pots and shit in the middle ages. If you move around a lot you are always the new, mysterious, person. Makes you dangerous, suspicious, and very fuckable (Gypsy chicks were considered PRIME lay back in the day, like 1000 years ago).
GoldCoastGirl
04-02-2005, 08:42 AM
I'm entering this thread a little late "into the game" however here is my bit
and many of us have found our own boundaries by crossing them.
I personally can attest to that! I refuse to go into greater detail as this memory will haunt me for the rest of my life. I have forgiven myself and therefore aren't that ashamed of it happening however the lesson is there.... and I refuse to forget it. I experienced a part of myself I never really believed existed.
This woman has a serious sense of decorum and "style" that just did not go with the carnival-like atmosphere of strip clubs, but it sure doesn't keep her from getting seriously wild and kinky "behind closed doors".
An 'ol saying comes to mind here: A lady in the boardroom, a whore in the bedroom.
Prostitution is THE oldest job ever. Kudos to all those women out there who are able to do this job without any qualms and without being bothered about what the rest of society thinks. Personally, I don't think I could ever do it, but that is more for psychological issues rather than 'moral' ones.
Couldn't have said it better myself! I thought it required repeating.
I just want to say that I'm all for decriminalising prostitution however against legalising it. There is a difference. It seems that alot of people throughout this thread (and I'm still only on page 2) are confusing decriminalising prostitution and legalising prostitution. Learn the difference.
If there is a demand for something, somebody somewhere will supply it, regardless of the state of its legality.
... and the demand for sex even if one has to pay for it will never run out. It has been around forever and will around for forever and a day.
Also,I find that the opinions of the male members a bit biased.Of course,you guys would be for prostitution.
I'm all for prostitution... always have been.. even prior to entering this industry. I realise its place in society. I'm also all for prostitution because there are male escorts out there for us females. I will unashamedly put my hand up to say that I have thought about using a male escort. This way I'm guaranteed a really good time instead of picking up some random male and due to his drunked-ness can't keep it up... argh!
I'm quite shocked and amazed at your opinion. I agree to disagree with you. It isn't because they are male that they are biased. I'm female.
why has no one brought up the issues of gigolos?
I have been approached by one! he was totally hot! i gave it some thought
I typed what I typed before I read your post.
The male escort that made me think about it was also pretty hot in his pictures. Didn't meet him personally however it got me thinking of the advantages of paying for sex instead of "going out" and having to find it..... esp. if all I wanted was to "get off" and nothing more (no relationship wanted, just horny and need satisfaction).
Dancers are NOT sex workers.We dance,not have sex for a living
100% DISagree with you. Dancers ARE sex workers esp. if you engage in selling a private lap dance of any kind (from air dance to 2 way contact nude). Okay.... It isn't so much that it is "sex" you are selling as sexuality. I remember another post elsewhere on the board saying this... and I have to agree 100%. We may not sell sex however we sell sexuality.
We are definately people who work within the sex industry whilst not being exactly "sex" workers.
mehhh this subject is going no where.
we can argue all day, no one will be right, no one will be wrong.
such is life :0
It seems to have ended that way from what I have read. Everyone has their opinions.
This post has been mine. I've enjoyed reading the thread.
Wwanderer
04-02-2005, 05:34 PM
I will unashamedly put my hand up to say that I have thought about using a male escort. This way I'm guaranteed a really good time ...
A great post, GCG; it picked up a lot of the diverse thoughts in this thread and tied them together in a very thoughtful way, imo. Thanks.
However, there is one comment (quoted above) you made that is not correct, imo...at least it isn't right if the experiences male escorts provide are anything like those of female escorts: Unfortunately but very definitely, you are not guaranteed a "really good time"...not even a good time...not even a pleasant or mildly positive time. You might have a great and very satisfying experience, but it could easily be a bad one that will leave you disappointed, disgusted and perhaps even more sexually frustrated (but poorer) than you started.
It would be too much of a tangent and too lengthy to go into all of the ways an experience with an escort can go wrong, but there are very many. You might think of it as like going out to eat in a restaurant; that hardly guarantees you a "very good" meal, especially if it is a restaurant you never tried before and have heard nothing about from other customers.
I guess male escorts could be different from female ones, but I don't see why and doubt it...
The male escort that made me think about it was also pretty hot in his pictures. Didn't meet him personally however it got me thinking of the advantages of paying for sex instead of "going out" and having to find it..... esp. if all I wanted was to "get off" and nothing more (no relationship wanted, just horny and need satisfaction).
Lest my comments above lead anyone to think that I am down on the experience of seeing escorts, let me say for sure that I am not. I think it is a super great "hobby" and am deeply grateful that there are so many wonderful women who choose to work as prostitutes. And I agree with GCG that there are lots of advantages of having the option to find a commercial sex partner...some of them obvious and some of them rather subtle. I have been seeing escorts moderately regularly for decades and have no intention of stopping any time soon. My only motivation in making my comments above is to "reduce expectations" to a reasonable level for any woman who might be considering giving male escorts a try.
One implication is that you may need to try it more than once before finding out if you like it enough to continue...just like you couldn't sensibly decide if you like going to restaurants for meals based on the first time you did it.
-Ww
lollygirl
04-02-2005, 06:17 PM
Im from Australia and im a bit confused. Im not in the sex industry so I am not too familiar with the rules but kind of interested in the debate. Is prostitution legal in the USA? It is here in NSW, in brothels at least. We have strip clubs that don't do prostitution but I know that there is a strip club here in Sydney that has live sex shows, so I guess that is an instance where girls do both.
Wwanderer
04-02-2005, 07:14 PM
As in Australia, US laws re prostitution are local, not national, but that is where the similarities end for the most part. It is illegal in one sense or another (legal definitions and penalities differ from place to place) everywhere in the US except for some rural counties in Nevada that allow the operation of legal brothels under extremely heavy state regulation and supervision.
I am not sure about NSW, but in addition to legal brothels right in the middle of cities (like in NSW), Victoria also has legal (licensed) private/independent prostitutes and (I think) outcall type agencies too. Upscale brothels in Sydney and Melbourne are among the world's best venues for prostitution, imo; they are posh/luxurious, clean, safe, reasonably priced, convenient and (most importantly) magnificently staffed with beautiful and skillful women from around the world...
I once had the interesting experience of having an Australian prostitute working in a Melbourne brothel basically call me a liar to my face when I described to her the extent to which her profession is legally suppressed in the US, the activities of the vice police (stings and so forth). She said that everyone knew that Americans are obssessed with personal freedom and have more than any other people in the world; she thought it (literally) unbelievable that Americans would tolerate police interference in their private sex lives. She was a bit more over-the-top than most, but she is far from the only foreigner I have encountered who assumed prostitution to be legal in the US.
-Ww
Casual Observer
04-02-2005, 08:00 PM
The sex industry will never go away. Never. There are too many men out there who LOVE to watch it. However, I do not believe that allowing prostitution will limit what a "clean" dancer can do. There are some guys that go to the clubs who don't want extras and will stay away from the extras dancers. It's a matter of preference. Some guys will NEVER pay for an escort/prostitute, but will watch hard core porn...some guys won't look at porn but will hit the SC's every weekend. Some guys do a little bit of both. By keeping escorting/prostitution illegal, they are simply doing the "illegal" things *under covers*. They are still doing it...just not openly.
Agreed.
Thus, the delineations between specific segments of the sex industry frequently seem arbitrary and capricious in their construction.
Two cents.
screaminpeachez
04-02-2005, 11:15 PM
.at least it isn't if the experiences male escorts provide are anything like those of female escorts: Unfortunately but extremely definitely, you are not guaranteed a really good time...not even a good time...not even a pleasant or mildly positive time. You might have a great and very satisfying time, but it could easily be a bad one that will leave you disappointed, disgusted and perhaps even more sexually frustrated (but poorer) than you started.
-Ww
there was more to this post that i appreciate
but i would like to respond to this particular part.
The only gratifying thing that I saw in my similar experience was the thought of control.
I would be satisfied purely by the experience of paying a young man for his time as if it were a situation we commonly think of as man -paying -woman.
a liberation if you will
to be demanding because of the whole "services rendered" aspect.
that in itself is satisfying and "dirty"
makes it hot
and i would get off purely on that
it gives me the "penis"
Wwanderer
04-03-2005, 12:57 AM
a liberation if you will
to be demanding because of the whole "services rendered" aspect.
that in itself is satisfying and "dirty"
Interesting...not to mention showing a lot of clear headed insight into your own psychology, imo.
But anyway interesting to me in that a particularly superb escort whom I used to see regularly once told me that she hires a male escort once or twice per year for reasons that sounded quite similar to yours. Basically, she got off on the idea of having a partner who had to satisfy her but about whose pleasure she did not need to concern herself...just the reverse of the normal situation in her work, of course. And I'd bet that those guys really had to earn their pay!
-Ww
Charmedlyfe
04-03-2005, 02:03 PM
In one club I know, 'extras' are the norm, and every girl knows every other girl does it.....but of COURSE they would never do it themselves. Is there a correlation between the self-deception of the dancers and the frequency of prostitution? Is a dancer in denial of herself and her job more or less likely to engage in that behaviour? It seems to me that a fair majority of dancers are unable to resist the so-called easy money that hooking provides. How damaging can this practice be to the psyche? WHY is it so damaging to the psyche? How damaging is that behaviour to societal structure? To an individual's philosophy/moral center (we all have one)? I think we agree that limits MUST exist for the good of everyone....the only question is where those limits must be set, and that should be based on more than personal interest. Of course, I could be wrong.
Why should the sex industry go away?
It is pretty honorable, especially compared to some other industries such as the fat-loss industry.
Infomercials for fat-loss products are always full of shit. Most sex industry people are fairly direct about what you get for your money(MOST!).
Sex is entertainment. So calling yourself "an entertainer" doesn't clean anything up. It is just making things more vague. Unless one is having sex with me, sex is usually entertaining, even if it is comical.
smartcookie
04-03-2005, 02:31 PM
I am an escort, and I have totally fantasized about hiring a male escort to do my bidding. }:D
I'm thinking about this one:
Oh yeah! Katrine, will you take him for a test drive and give me a report?
We are all a part of the sex industry anyway you slice it!
Prostitution should be decriminalized. Most important points would be 1. Safety 2. Health !
Also, I could care less what ANYONE does for a living and I do not judge nor see myself as any better or worse. Just please do us all a favor and:
KEEP IT OUT OF THE CLUBS.
Girls doing extras (in clubs) are killing our business.
I would also like to add that I believe it is very sad how cheap allot of these services are. Unfortunately, there are too many girls and agency’s competing against each other and have ruined their own business in the process. I‘ve seen ads to massage houses for $30 !?!! WTF. Average hour rate is $200 / $250 per hour !!! WOW.. that is sad IMO.
I am not bashing anyone who charges this, I simply believe this service SHOULD COST ALLOT MORE.
To all girls charging more, GOOD FOR YOU.
showgirlschloe
04-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Amazing how reading through everyone's own opinion, I seem to have forgotten my own. I'm not even sure of what the original question was because this thread has taken so many twists and turns. What I believe, I am not better than anyone else. Everyone has their own boundaries and we cannot criticize others for something we do not understand. I always am in awe for the minds of some of these posters on this website and sgj. We are some damn intelligent people.
LilSweetVixen
04-03-2005, 07:58 PM
Thus, the delineations between specific segments of the sex industry frequently seem arbitrary and capricious in their construction.
Exactly! As with anything in life, when people try to take something that's the same in principle and draw moral lines it comes out "arbitrary". The dead giveaway is the fact that the speaker frequently draws the line wherever HIS activities end.
Thus to the civilian girl next door who draws moral lines, there are certain things that make you a whore, but other activities are just modern and natural. Stripping is a whorish thing, but what a coincidence that premarital sex isn't one of them and that the girl in question has had premarital sex.
Within the sex industry, we see this. I'm sure at brothels some girls have categories for certain prostitutes who do things they consider morally abject when it's all the same in principle, like "oh the ones who do outcalls more often than incalls", something that sounds frivolous on the outside.
Wwanderer
04-03-2005, 08:51 PM
The dead giveaway is the fact that the speaker frequently draws the line wherever HIS activities end.
EXACTLY! Some people are tolerant of others, of those in whose shoes they have not walked, but some people seem to need to see themselves as "good" or "right" and others as "bad" or "wrong". So, they draw their moral lines to give the desired result.
I'm sure at brothels some girls have categories for certain prostitutes who do things they consider morally abject when it's all the same in principle, ...
Precisely so! You will hear the same sort of talk among brothel workers about their more permissive peers that you hear from dancers...the exact equivalent of the "extras" debates/views so often heard on SW. For a frequent customer of both escorts and dancers, the parallels of issues and concerns (this is just one of them) are abundant and staggeringly obvious.
-Ww
Wwanderer
04-03-2005, 08:58 PM
I would also like to add that I believe it is very sad how cheap allot of these services are. Unfortunately, there are too many girls and agency’s competing against each other and have ruined their own business in the process. I‘ve seen ads to massage houses for $30 !?!! WTF. Average hour rate is $200 / $250 per hour !!! WOW.. that is sad IMO.
Just out of curiosity, what would you consider reasonable and appropriate price levels (and where...varies a lot geographically, of course)?
And, fwiiw, advertised prices very often are not the real prices that typical customers actually pay...which can be either higher or lower depending on the escort's/service's "business model". "Market forces" basically determine the rates, of course, but it is a quirky and far from ideal/transparent market, so there are lots of oddities and variations in pricing even in a single sector of the escort market. This was far more the case back in the days before large parts of the prostitution business developed an internet presence because the market was extremely "opaque" then.
-Ww
lollygirl
04-03-2005, 09:57 PM
Interesting, so USA doesn't have legalised prostitution except for one state.
I wonder if that means that the USA has heaps more strip clubs because they don't have so many brothels. Does that mean they don't have "rub and tug" joints either?
Wwanderer
04-03-2005, 10:36 PM
Interesting, so USA doesn't have legalised prostitution except for one state.
Right, and not even everywhere in Nevada (not in Las Vegas, for example)...only in rather rural areas, and there aren't that many brothels in the whole state (maybe 2 or 3 dozen and only around 10 reasonably big and elaborate ones). You can read more about it in detail at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada
if you are interested. Legalized prostitution in Nevada is not remotely in the same league of quality and style as in NSW and Victoria, at least from a customer's perspective.
I wonder if that means that the USA has heaps more strip clubs because they don't have so many brothels. Does that mean they don't have "rub and tug" joints either?
I don't know any statistics, but it does not seem to me that a typical US city has dramatically more strip clubs than a city of similar size in Australia; my impression is that it is fairly similar. And definitely don't get the impression that prostitution is rare or difficult to find in the US; it is all over the place, especially in large ciites and includes "rub & tug" places and many other forms and formats. It is illegal but often tolerated by the police, either because they just don't care (have bigger problems to pursue) or because it is so hard to enforce laws against prostitution (as it is with all "victimless crimes"). In most places and most of the time in the US, laws against prostitution are enforced only to the degree necessary to keep it a low profile activity that does not blatantly bother or offend the population at large.
-Ww
NinaDaisy
04-03-2005, 11:24 PM
well put. like it or not we ARE in the sex business. any way you slice it. it is what it is. extras or not, clean or dirty. sex trade is what we do. period. our escort sisters ARE a part of us.
Yes, thank you!
Guys don't necessarily go to a strip club to get off, but the expectation of being tantalized, tittilated and aroused is a standard objective.
The "sex industry" is not limited to women who allow themselves to be penetrated by a penis for money.
I wish I could post a Venn diagram of my thoughts on this. It goes something along the lines of: a prostitute is a sex worker, but a sex worker is not necessarily a prostitute. Some of us forget about the overlap, whether that ignorance is intentional or not.
Katrine
04-04-2005, 03:17 AM
I am an escort, and I have totally fantasized about hiring a male escort to do my bidding. }:D
I'm thinking about this one:
http://eros-austin.com/files/au-jpeppergod1-jpeppergod1.htm
Oh yeah! Katrine, will you take him for a test drive and give me a report?
We'll call him to do us both when you come to town and visit me!!
Yes, yes, yes! I'm LOVING this idea! }:D
Symmy
04-04-2005, 04:03 PM
If anyone has any pull around here please get these poor prostitues and there johns a place of their own.Talk to a congressman ...somebody.I'm not even trying to be a meany but I really don't think I should have to explain why I don't want to prostitute myself ,and why I don't want it in the club that I !pay! to work in.I don't care if you got more game than me that's cool I'm not a hater.Hoover it up in your own joint though.Or at least do it behind closed doors....god.If I can't see it and it doesn't effect me directly(example).....You let some dude grab you and my dude sees it and wants me to let him giggle the handlebars we will no longer be cool. Give respect to me and I will give it to you.
velvet
04-04-2005, 08:53 PM
We are all a part of the sex industry anyway you slice it!
Prostitution should be decriminalized. Most important points would be 1. Safety 2. Health !
Also, I could care less what ANYONE does for a living and I do not judge nor see myself as any better or worse. Just please do us all a favor and:
KEEP IT OUT OF THE CLUBS.
Girls doing extras (in clubs) are killing our business.
I would also like to add that I believe it is very sad how cheap allot of these services are. Unfortunately, there are too many girls and agency’s competing against each other and have ruined their own business in the process. I‘ve seen ads to massage houses for $30 !?!! WTF. Average hour rate is $200 / $250 per hour !!! WOW.. that is sad IMO.
I am not bashing anyone who charges this, I simply believe this service SHOULD COST ALLOT MORE.
To all girls charging more, GOOD FOR YOU.
lets get back on topic NO ONE is talking about extras in the club. please to all who resopnd, read the first post. thanks Velvet
Wwanderer
04-05-2005, 12:43 AM
Also, I could be wrong and you can correct me if I am. It seems that many other areas of the sex industry make more money than prostitution. If that is generally the case does that say something about men or women or society that men (as they are overwhelmingly the customers) are willing to pay more for a good look and show than actually being able to have an orgasm? Is it the entertainment factor that is so much more important?
Following velvet's instructions and going back to the thread's initial post, its last paragraph (quoted above) raises a question that we have not much addressed so far.
I am not sure exactly what "other areas of the sex industry" Incognita had in mind, but in any case the answer is not simple because the earnings of prostitutes varies so much...even more than that of exotic dancers, I suspect. In fact, for an escort, earnings depend on many of the same factors as for dancers (another indication of the close parallels between the two professions) plus some others. However, I suspect the highest earning prostitutes make much more money while working far shorter hours and with a lot more flexibility and personal freedom (i.e., they are their own bosses...are self-employed) than the highest earning dancers. And of course, sadly, at the opposite end of the scale, there are both dancers and prostitutes who work long and hard but make very little money at all.
As for the customer's perspective, although many of us/them will deny it, I think the customer of either a prostitute or a dancer is almost always looking for much more than an orgasm. If/when a guy is only after an orgasm, his hand, some lube and perhaps a bit of porn are far cheaper, faster, more convenient and safer than going to either a strip club or seeing an escort.
-Ww
NinaDaisy
04-05-2005, 12:54 AM
^ Other aspects of the sex industry...
Hmmm...there's phone-sex and webcam girls, magazine models, porn stars and you might even include "penumbras" like people that own sex toy shops or porn producers/directors. Just a thought...
hustlebunny
04-05-2005, 01:51 AM
I think it is easy for people in general to start judging others no matter what the situation. I don't think many dancers go one night without getting offers for prostitution...i always answer the same "i don't do that. No, I am not offended, i just choose not to do that." I try my best not to have judgements for anyone because my name is not God and i don't want that job. I don't think i am better than a prostitiute by being a dancer. I think that i feel bad for the women who think they have to have sex and give their money to a pimp for "protection" or whatever else. i admire the women who escort and have a clientele that they sleep with and keep the money for themselves. I like women who work smart and not hard, peroid. If you are gonna sleep with someone for "stuff" money or otherwise why not let it be straight up. I couldn't do it like that but think about how many "regular" women are with men because they have money. I think sex work is a very honest profession. I am with you because i want your money. You are with me because you want the presence of my prettiness pretending to find you attractive. In the real world women do it ALL the time under the pretense of sincerity which is better?????
Kelly007
04-05-2005, 05:41 AM
I have read the book "Natashas", and would recommend it to anyone that wants to gain further insiught, understanding of the "billion dollar sex industry globally."
The book was intensly interesting.
Many people that are ignorant, of the women that are prostitutes because they have been trafficed will see them in a different light; they are all victims.:'(
LilSweetVixen
04-05-2005, 06:19 AM
I distinguish prostitutes from trafficked boys and girls.