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lollygirl
04-05-2005, 05:32 PM
Perhaps the Judgement Scale goes something like this:

Model: Highest on "food chain".

Actress: high on "food chain".

Stripper: medium on "food chain".

Rub and Tug: medium to low on "food chain".

Escort: low on "food chain".

Street Prostitute: Lowest on "food chain".

Perhaps the judgement scale or the way people judge anothers worth is by how far they up this food chain.

What makes one thing above the other on the food chain?

The more attractive somebody is as a person the LESS they must do with their body in order to satisfy their audience/customer. For example, a model can simply stand there and pose and their audience is captivated. A stripper must titillate and be sexually provocative using their body but they don't have to actually touch anybody. A "rub and tug" girl will masturbate a man but the man will not be able to have sex with her. Lowest of all is the street prostitute who will probably do anything at all with anybody.

Just a theory... I can already see some complications to this scale but I think there is some truth to this theory, ie that the scale represents the unconscious way people judge another's self worth with regard to their profession.

I personally try not to judge others according to their profession within the sex industry, but the theory represents an attempt to understand why people see things the way they do, in answer to the first post.

smartcookie
04-05-2005, 06:26 PM
Some very "unattractive" and exploited women indeed. Terrible money they're making. ::)

LilSweetVixen
04-05-2005, 06:41 PM
rich people officially suck, for now at least.

Wwanderer
04-05-2005, 11:02 PM
Perhaps the Judgement Scale goes something like this:
Model: Highest on "food chain".
Actress: high on "food chain".
Stripper: medium on "food chain".
Rub and Tug: medium to low on "food chain".
Escort: low on "food chain".
Street Prostitute: Lowest on "food chain".
What makes one thing above the other on the food chain? The more attractive somebody is as a person the LESS they must do with their body in order to satisfy their audience/customer.

Imo, there is definitely an element of truth in your theory/idea, but as far as I can tell you have "escort" and "rub and tug" (massage parlor worker) backwards. Actually, it depends on what sort of escort you mean, but certainly the sorts of upscale indies for whom smartcookie posted a few URLs or the escorts working for a good agency (e.g., http://www.elliottbayseattle.net/ ) typically consider themselves way "above" massage parlor providers even though they do more for/to their customers. The reasons are that they make much more money, typically see more sophisticated and upscale guys, "service" a far smaller total number of men, have better "working conditions" (posh hotel rooms instead of grungy massage parlor venues) and so forth.

-Ww

paradoc
04-06-2005, 12:58 AM
now why would you say that? Are all men mindless animals desperately searching for sex? The number of comparisons I could give about women are endless, but I realise that women run the spectrum of humanity and therefore wont generalize. Do some men seek out protitutes? Absolutely. Do women do the same? Absolutely.
Sorry but with my job ( fireman/paramedic) I see the very worst of both men and women. And I have seen the very best from men and women. People are capable of horrendous, wonderful things.
Prostituion has a place, men/women will sell it, men/women will buy it. Is it good or bad depends on the person and how THEY make it. I try not to force my morals on others, I do it , but I try not to. If I could force my morals on others , I'd be beating parents to death daily.

sorry, about the disjointed rant, really bad night at work.

Wwanderer
04-06-2005, 01:46 AM
now why would you say that?

Eh? Why would who say what? Me?

-Ww

screaminpeachez
04-06-2005, 07:14 AM
The reasons are that they make much more money, typically see more sophisticated and upscale guys, "service" a far smaller total number of men, have better "working conditions" (posh hotel rooms instead of grungy massage parlor venues) and so forth.

-Ww

I wonder on what part of the chain girls that have 1 sugar daddy go??

is it different to only have 1 guy that gives you a house, car, fur coats etc?

or are they considered the same as the escort?
or are they categorized more with the TROPHY WIFE?

paradoc
04-06-2005, 08:38 AM
sorry wanderer, i was replying to otb. It was very late....thats my excuse anyway.

Incognita
04-06-2005, 03:03 PM
Thanks for addressing that second part of the question Paradoc. I'm sorry you had such a tough day. You have one of the most honorable jobs in the world.

I feel incredibly naive. I had no idea you could advertise to sell your sex for money on the internet. Some of that language is pretty explicit too, I mean in the sense that it is clearly sex that is going to happen. AND WHOA the rates. 45k for a week!

Sorry I haven't been back much. I have been reading and just trying to digest all that has been said here, turn it over in my little head and get a grip on how it fits into my view of the world.

Wwanderer
04-06-2005, 11:30 PM
I had no idea you could advertise to sell your sex for money on the internet.

If you want to learn more about the online presence of "the hobby" (prostitution), check out:

http://www.atomicjohn.com/

which is a meta-site, a list of links to other sites that are devoted to the hobby in one way or another, some bearing a striking resemblance to SW in some ways. It includes all or most major such sites as well as many less well known and/or regional ones. There is a ton of stuff about The Biz (another euphemism) online, probably more than any one person would ever want to read.

-Ww

bvegan
05-03-2005, 07:52 PM
I consider strippers to be prostitutes. They get money for sex. They provide opportunities for men who are in relationships with women to have sex outside of their relationship >:( without fear of the difficulties having an actual affair would cause them. (Discovery, censure from peers, expense.) I'm here researching what actually happens in these places and whether to chill on my attitude toward them and my worst fears have been confirmed. The word "extras" should pretty much explain why.

As to the clueless idiots who think men are doing their girlfriend or wife a favor by getting all heated up in a club and coming home to have "hot" sex, well, duh. I don't know any woman who thinks this is cool. For most women, the best sex happens through love and intimacy.

The saddest thing is that most of these sex workers are actually intelligent people who could exceed at something they could be really proud of without making other women's lives miserable. (I'll guarantee you that women who say they are "ok" with strip clubs or who even show up in clubs with their men are desparately trying to keep their relationships alive by adapting to something their men are getting a big ego boost out of not only getting away with but in the latter case, forcing the woman they are with to participate in something they hate for fear of losing them. Jerks.)

Well, you asked . . .

polecat
05-03-2005, 09:15 PM
I'll do anything to keep my guy out of these places.
...
Please. Women, think of what you are doing to other women! You're cheating with men who are in relationships that are probably already in serious trouble. Why would you want to make these people's lives any more difficult than they already are?
Face the facts, woman- if you have to 'reel' in your guy or put restrictions on him, you need to fix your own damn house before criticizing others. You're fucking losers who will flock off to another 'ham sandwich' because the 'turkey sandwich' at home is growing boring... this is what happens when something is broken in a woman that causes her to form relationships with men that simply objectify their woman.

If you actually think the 'temptation' of seeing a woman in lingerie, thong or even in the nude is capable of swerving a guy off track from his wife or girlfriend, then you have a simply distorted view of men and also of relationships. Fix the problem with YOURSELF and your experiences will change dramatically.

Once you have this issue with YOU fixed, you'll start forming relationships with men that wild horses couldn't drag them from you.

Casual Observer
05-03-2005, 09:34 PM
I'll do anything to keep my guy out of these places.

How sad for you. If you have to actively "keep your guy out of these places," out of fear of losing him, you've already lost him.

Strippers aren't the reason men cheat; lack of emotional satisfaction (i.e., sexual fulfillment) in a relationship is a reason men cheat, and strippers don't have anything to do with that.

bvegan
05-03-2005, 09:39 PM
Face the facts, woman- if you have to 'reel' in your guy or put restrictions on him,

Oh, I don't have to. He doesn't want to go to these clubs. But I live in an area where it is traditional for men to go to these places for things like bachelor parties, and I was wondering how I'd feel if this ever came up. Well, now I know.


you need to fix your own damn house before criticizing others. You're fucking losers who will flock off to another 'ham sandwich' because the 'turkey sandwich' at home is growing boring... this is what happens when something is broken in a woman that causes her to form relationships with men that simply objectify their woman.

My house isn't broken. I wouldn't stay with a guy who wanted to go do this. I came here because some things I'd read made me think that maybe I should update my attitude on the subject of strippers and strip clubs. Instead, what I've read has made me see that my original atittude was too liberal. (As for criticizing others, you are the one being rude and even slightly abusive here.)


If you actually think the 'temptation' of seeing a woman in lingerie, thong or even in the nude is capable of swerving a guy off track from his wife or girlfriend, then you have a simply distorted view of men and also of relationships. Fix the problem with YOURSELF and your experiences will change dramatically.

I don't think seeing a nude woman is going to necessarily kill a relationship. But I do think that letting a woman rub on a guy's dick WILL swerve him off the track, in fact if this is happening he's already so far off I doubt his relationship will ever be the same.

You are clearly getting very angry and not reading what I wrote carefully. My biggest problem here is the obvious availability of "extras". Guys + alcohol + other guys + peer pressure + easy availability of easy and quick gratification - in these circumstances things can occur that mightn't be intended but could have terrible consequences. Bits rubbing on bits = sex, period, end of story. This is cheating.


Once you have this issue with YOU fixed, you'll start forming relationships with men that wild horses couldn't drag them from you.

Like I said, I don't have a problem - you are very quick to assume that I do. No worries, I'm fine. But I will do what I can to help keep my guy out of the paths of the wild horses anyway! Like they say, don't borrow trouble.

As for people with problems, you may want to look at that nasty little defensiveness issue you seem to be displaying!

bvegan
05-03-2005, 09:51 PM
How sad for you. If you have to actively "keep your guy out of these places," out of fear of losing him, you've already lost him.

Like I said to Polecat, I don't have to. But if it comes up (i.e. bachelor party) I will do everything I can to prevent it. The conditions and atmosphere are geared to get guys to have lap dances (to make them spend money) and that's sex.

It's simple, really. Alcohol (no I'm not against drinking) lowers inhibitions. Lowered inhibitions in these places could easily lead to actions that would destroy any trust in a relationship and cause a lot of unnecessary pain. Who needs it? Better to stay out. By the way, I don't give a flying you-know-what if single guys do this, although the poor things could probably be spending their money more productively.


Strippers aren't the reason men cheat; lack of emotional satisfaction (i.e., sexual fulfillment) in a relationship is a reason men cheat, and strippers don't have anything to do with that.

No, but you're sure right there to expoit it! LOL! You guys have this all figured out to avoid feeling any responsibility for what you do, don't you? Good job of rationalization!

SthnrnGrl77
05-03-2005, 10:00 PM
That is your business but you really shouldn't be so judgemental on others.

polecat
05-03-2005, 10:03 PM
(As for criticizing others, you are the one being rude and even slightly abusive here.)
Absolutely! I'm very 'abusive' when someone tries to remove accountability from the applicable party.

Someone cheats on his wife with a stripper? Well, it's obviously the strippers fault! Those nasty old strippers! How dare they tempt angelic and otherwise faithful men! The villany!



I don't think seeing a nude woman is going to necessarily kill a relationship. But I do think that letting a woman rub on a guy's dick WILL swerve him off the track, in fact if this is happening he's already so far off I doubt his relationship will ever be the same.
You said it- if a guy doesn't set a boundry, or quite specifically, is in the company of strippers without his spouse's blessing, he's damn far off track. This isn't the stripper's fault.


My biggest problem here is the obvious availability of "extras". Guys + alcohol + other guys + peer pressure + easy availability of easy and quick gratification - in these circumstances things can occur that mightn't be intended but could have terrible consequences. Bits rubbing on bits = sex, period, end of story. This is cheating.
Doesn't this strike ANY internal chord as making excuses for someone's philandering, poor behavior?

I've hosted bachelor parties with strippers before- nobody attached did anything questionable. Single guys? They has at it. I guess it has something to do with the quality of guys I associate with... their repulsed by the idea, but good clean fun is open season.



As for people with problems, you may want to look at that nasty little defensiveness issue you seem to be displaying!
It's not defensiveness, it's sternly pointing out a deficiency in your way of thinking- which is 'shoot the messenger'.. it's very typical of women that have been lied to, cheated or otherwise victimized by losers. When you even START to characterize this as 'the behavior of men" I have every right to firmly point out how misguided such attempts truly are.

I've been cheated on myself in the distant past. I had no ill-will towards the guy she was boinking behind my back. Heck, I wanted to send the guy flowers for illustrating what an unworthy, wretched, vile beast she was to me. She was what was broken. I would have been broken if I either blamed him, stayed with her, or created some delusional "Well, that's just the way women are!" hypothesis.

Similarly, you can't blame strippers for doing sex work to 'anyone that walks through the doorway and pays a cover charge', then blame any PREMEDITATED and ORCHESTRATED adultery by men as being their fault. That was the point.

tampafldancer
05-04-2005, 01:00 AM
POLECAT, did i mention your posts were ONTHEMONEY!!!
<3 PC!

erotictonic
05-04-2005, 01:11 AM
Yep, Polecat is right. I quit dancing b/c I didn't want to be a part of that anymore, but it's not the stripper's faults that the guys come in looking for it. What's wrong with this picture is clearly the men who think it's okay to screw their wives over.

bvegan
05-04-2005, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by bvegan
(As for criticizing others, you are the one being rude and even slightly abusive here.)

You replied: Absolutely! I'm very 'abusive' when someone tries to remove accountability from the applicable party.

There is one essential flaw in your opening. People you are 'abusive' to, rarely listen to you. I am here in the spirit of open communication. I wrote what I did because it is how I honestly felt after about 2 hours of reading this site. I'm trying to look into the situation and see how close my feelings on the subject are to actual reality. I am not here to troll. This is a pretty visceral subject for most women. So I said what I thought.

Now - on to removing accountability - this is also my point. The stripper is an essential part of the situation. If the stripper didn't exist, the situation would not. The stakes on cheating would be higher as I said earlier.

Now we know strippers aren't going to stop existing. But this website shows that the members of this profession, as a class, are attempting to gain mainstream status. They don't like, I am sure, being unable to tell people what they do without that being an issue in the way that it is. I get that and to some degree I sympathize. But only to some degree. There is a reason that many women and even men regard strippers the way they do.

The thing is, the more mainstream and accepted stripping gets, the easier it will be for all guys to go to these clubs and get these lap experiences. (The word "dance" is a little too misleading in my opinion. It carries strong implications of "niceness" and acceptability. I am sure this is why this practice was named as it is.)

Women in relationships are thus sort of natural enemies of strippers and other "present in the flesh" sex workers. Many of us have accepted porn to degrees we never thought possible, but there is a natural barrier between the porn movie workers and the customer - certain things just aren't possible. The activity remains in the realm of the imagination. But in these clubs, there are actual women right there.

Masturbation is apparently entirely banned in these environments, so the point is to get these guys as horny as possible and then not let them touch their dicks. But many beautiful women who are just dying to do it for them are provided! Even if the rules are against this, we see that it happens a lot. All those fantasies right there on the brink of fulfillment! Plus, there are also heavy incentives to drink, reducing impulse control and powers of judgment through the evening as the prolonged arousal increases.

I think the following might be a fair representation of a man's inner dialogue, sampled throughout such an evening:

9PM: "Oh, I"ll have to work up a nice fantasy about this later."
9:30: "I couldn't . . . nah. What am I, an idiot?"
10 PM: "Ohhh, look at that girl. She's coming over. She really likes me. Who would it hurt, really? <insert beginnings of recital of girlfriend/wife's faults and litany of reasons why might be ok.> Geesh, I must be getting drunk, oughta slow down."
10:30: "Oh, I shouldn't have had that last shot. Woh. Look at her. She's coming over here too. She's gonna sit on my knee! I"m gonna jerk off about this for the next year!"
10:45: "Oh god, my dick is so hard, I can't jerk off, what can I do, I gotta COME"
10:50: "She wants to go be alone with me. She just said really nice things to me, She wants to blow me and fuck me and make me feel good and won't ever be cranky or whatever else my wife/girlfriend does (even though I do the same asshole things and sometimes a lot worse cause I"m bigger and stronger and it's a man's world). God she just put her hand inside my leg about 2 inches from my cock She's stroking my leg. She's gonna touch my cock. Nobody is letting me touch my cock or I would have jerked off 5 times by now. She's gonna touch my cock. How much?"


Someone cheats on his wife with a stripper? Well, it's obviously the strippers fault! Those nasty old strippers! How dare they tempt angelic and otherwise faithful men! The villany!

See above. Remember, I've been reading this website and about the techniques women can use to get a guy to buy a lap experience. Those nice innocent strippers (in contrast to the nasty old ones you refer to) are clearly working as hard as they can to get any guy they can to do this. The whole "they're just there, providing a service" argument tries to ignore the really obvious factor of the immense pressure put on men in these clubs to hand over as much money as possible. To forget why it might be better for him not to indulge himself in a moment of weakness.


I said: I don't think seeing a nude woman is going to necessarily kill a relationship. But I do think that letting a woman rub on a guy's dick WILL swerve him off the track, in fact if this is happening he's already so far off I doubt his relationship will ever be the same.

You replied: You said it- if a guy doesn't set a boundry, or quite specifically, is in the company of strippers without his spouse's blessing, he's damn far off track. This isn't the stripper's fault.

As I said above, the stripper and club are big elements in his being off the track. It may have been a very quick swerve beginning that evening after he entered the club. I didn't say originally that he was there without his partner's blessing - just that if he reaches the point where the sex is happening, he is off the track. He may not have been headed off the track before this. Or he may have been tempted recently because of pressures in his relationship, but would have resisted without the intense pressure of alcohol, extreme excitement in a form he's not used to, and only one acceptable means of release during the course of a long evening. (I'm thinking of bachelor parties which can go on for hours and where men are in these clubs who don't otherwise go.)


I said: My biggest problem here is the obvious availability of "extras". Guys + alcohol + other guys + peer pressure + easy availability of easy and quick gratification - in these circumstances things can occur that mightn't be intended but could have terrible consequences. Bits rubbing on bits = sex, period, end of story. This is cheating.

You replied: Doesn't this strike ANY internal chord as making excuses for someone's philandering, poor behavior?

I am not attempting to remove responsibility from the guy. Not at all. I am merely saying that the clubs provide a venue for and actively encourage this behavior. As actively as they can. By the way, I'm getting the impression that there are rules, and there are rules. Seems like if the woman is ok with going past those boundaries, enforcement is reserved for overt infractions or where the stripper or other strippers are complaining.


I've hosted bachelor parties with strippers before- nobody attached did anything questionable. Single guys? They has at it. I guess it has something to do with the quality of guys I associate with... their repulsed by the idea, but good clean fun is open season.

I'm sure you have. But - were these parties in clubs that actively sold lap sex? Please remember, again, I've been reading this site. It's right here in black and white. These people and places are working very hard to get every man in the place to utilize as many services as possible where such services are offered at all. I do not think that these clubs or these women are in this for humanitarian reasons. If they can get a guy to indulge at all, the further the worker/club is willing to go the more money they can probably get from him. Maybe it makes it easier for the worker to assume he's a dog, or his woman isn't treating him right and is an emotional wreck, but that's a simplistic analysis. Sorry, but the clubs and workers are responsible as well.

(Continued in next post - this was too long even after editing.)

bvegan
05-04-2005, 02:10 AM
(Continued from last post)


I wrote: As for people with problems, you may want to look at that nasty little defensiveness issue you seem to be displaying!

You replied: It's not defensiveness, it's sternly pointing out a deficiency in your way of thinking- which is 'shoot the messenger'.. it's very typical of women that have been lied to, cheated or otherwise victimized by losers. When you even START to characterize this as 'the behavior of men" I have every right to firmly point out how misguided such attempts truly are.

STERNLY, is it? Well! And pointing out deficiencies in my thinking! LOL!

If you are suggesting, as you seem to be, that I am one of these wounded souls you refer to (so you can accuse me of being irrational because I'm so wounded I'm acting out of my own ego and emotions) you're way off base. I've not been lied to, cheated on or otherwise victimized. Also, I didn't characterize anything as "the behavior of men." Not sure what you're referring to. Since I made no such attempt, I did nothing misguided.


I've been cheated on myself in the distant past. I had no ill-will towards the guy she was boinking behind my back. Heck, I wanted to send the guy flowers for illustrating what an unworthy, wretched, vile beast she was to me. She was what was broken. I would have been broken if I either blamed him, stayed with her, or created some delusional "Well, that's just the way women are!" hypothesis.

I'm sorry you experienced that. It must have been painful. As for wanting to send the guy flowers, I assume you are engaging in some excusable hyperbole. I can't help suspecting that you are expressing your feelings now, and not what you felt toward him at the time. I speak from almost 50 years of experience with humans here. If you truly felt no rancor toward him at the time, well, good for you, but I don't entirely believe it. Not calling you a liar, but rather assuming that you are working very hard to make a point here and are substituting what you have worked out to feel since the event for what you actually felt at the time, which helps you support your entire point.


Similarly, you can't blame strippers for doing sex work to 'anyone that walks through the doorway and pays a cover charge', then blame any PREMEDITATED and ORCHESTRATED adultery by men as being their fault. That was the point.

I'm not engaging in some splitting of hairs analysis of the various types of infidelity here. But sex workers take an easily accessible commodity and exploit it. "In the flesh" sex workers in clubs clearly actively encourage men to have sex with them, whether the man is in a relationship or not. They do so in the context of a system that uses strong psychological pressure and incentive to strengthen this encouragement. This is, in some ways, worse than prostitution. A guy has to actively pursue that. If he does, sex is definitely going to happen, and his accountability to himself is more obvious. I think it's actually equal in both situations, but it's easier to lie to yourself about just walking into a club where nothing may happen, or something might but even if they are thinking about it they can label it as harmless fantasy. They can tell themselves it's innocent, it can even be innocent, like if he's pressured to go there by buddies, but while there he's shown every kind of woman the club can offer, in as provocative a way as possible, and then forbidden to jerk off. And from what I hear, the bathrooms are also engineered to discourage his releasing his tension himself.

If this isn't akin to entrapment, I don't know what is. The victim of entrapment is usually taking advantage of an opportunity, often unexpected, to break the law, and a guy in a strip club may just be taking advantage of an opportunity to fulfil a fantasy, but he is offered the strongest possible enticements to take the opportunity.

Yes, I see at least half of the responsibility as being on the stripper and the club.

VenusGoddess
05-04-2005, 03:38 AM
OK...this thread has completely run it's course.

Closed.