View Full Version : Oops, I miscounted your dances, sweetie...
Pan Dah
04-18-2005, 06:35 PM
Never tell them how much money you have...Keep count yourself and when the sixth song starts to end... stop her because they'll go one note into the seventh and charge you... I'm not too sure if it's a rip off or what.This same thing happened to me at a club the first night there,or at any club.After that i was carefull,counted songs and ended early.My fave there would always laugh when i did that *Shrug*... Now that i think about it the first thing the girl asked after i told her i didn't have the twenty was " Do you have a ATM card?".. So... telling her how much i had gave her the idea to over dance,get me to use my ATM then the Club gets twenty percent./:O
I did have 18 dollars in my wallet so she only came up two bucks short...:-[
Different clubs, different experiences.
I haven’t seriously “counted” dances in at least five years, and darn seldom even before that. I’ll usually have some feel for how many have elapsed, plus or minus maybe 20-40%, and for anyone but my ATF will do a check somewhere in the three to four range to be sure we’re close to the same wavelength. As often as not the dancer’s count is lower than my estimate.
For the story that started this thread, I suppose BF made the right decision overall. If the dances were enjoyable until the final accounting, I might say try being a bit more lenient in regard to future business. For me, that would depend a lot on the dancer’s attitude, which wasn’t too clear in the original post. For instance, in the situation VG described from her own experience, I would probably pay for the extra dance and try her again in the future. The more aggressive the dancer’s approach, the less likely she would get any future business. In a way that carries over to the club too. If it was a good time, don’t abandon the club for one misunderstanding with one dancer. If the whole experience was so bad you won’t ever go to the club again, management probably deserves to know why, though honestly I probably wouldn’t bother telling them myself.
tootsie
04-18-2005, 07:53 PM
you got 7 and you know it. pay for what you got.
not if he said 6.
amylynnej
04-18-2005, 09:04 PM
its his job to say stop. pay up.
Archangel
04-18-2005, 09:59 PM
pay up.
Do you pay the homeless people that come up to your car at a stop light, spit on your car window, wipe it with some dirty underwear and then demand money?
Or how about asking for advice from someone you know is a lawyer? Would you pay whatever they asked after they gave you your answer (up to $500 per hour), even though they didn't tell you that you were being charged?
Say you bring your computer in for repairs and when they give it back to you, they demand additional money for upgrades that you never authorized. Do you pay? You can ask to have them removed, but you will still be charged labor and a restock fee. This is fair, right?
What about when your phone gets slammed with a new long distance carrier without you saying that you wanted to switch. You use the service, unknowingly, for two weeks and get a bill higher than it should be. Just go along and pay it or fight it and refuse to be scammed?
Bottom Line: You cannot perform services that have not been explicitly authorized as paid service and then demand payment.
The only people I've ever met that dispute this simple rule/law are scammers themselves.
polecat
04-18-2005, 10:49 PM
The best analogy I can think of...
You walk into a pizza place, order up a LARGE pizza. The pizza is delivered to your table, nothing seems unusual and you proceed to scarf the thing down, until it's all gone.
The check comes, you lay down the amount for a large pizza, then the guy says "Ooops! That was an EXTRA LARGE. Pay-up more, buddy."
It's a near-equal analogy as it assumes two things from the original post:
1) It's exactly how it was described in the original post. Customer pre-orders X dances, dancer performs X+1 dances.
2) There was no customer interaction during the first six dances to incurr, imply or hint at the desire for any change in order whatsoever.
In this case, I would have handled it accordingly (assuming I had the cash on me):
1) If the dancer was embarassed and was going to eat the extra dance herself, I'd pay her for the honest mistake for services rendered.
2) If the dancer spied my wallet with a 'pay up buddy' stance, I'd deny her the $20 for the extra dance (i.e. very likely a scam/ROB situation). Any bouncer activity not in-line with standard customer service practices would have my size 16 shoe rectally implanted, and any out-numbering security persuasion would be accomodated with about a dozen cell phone calls and a blanket party outside the establishment after closing time to better secure a more customer service oriented approach in future situations.
To assume a customer pre-ordering a set amount of service should then be accountable for the service bearing individual's accuracy is just looney tunes. It's just as looney as assuming a customer at a pizza place is going to bust out a ruler and measure the 1.5" diameter difference between a large and extra large pizza. There is no stated policy that a customer walking into a stripclub (or pizza place) is assumed accountable for measurement of units ('songs') in said establishment. The service provider is indeed the accountable party when a pre-order is created.
Prester_John
04-18-2005, 11:17 PM
its his job to say stop. pay up.
Im guessing you dont get a lot of repeat customers with that sort of mindset. if dancer lapdances did not do things to us that make us forget time and place for a little while, dancers would not make a cent off of them, and would have to be satisfied with 1 dollar stage tips.
If one takes the story at face value, the dancer knowingly and intentionally performed on more dance then the customer agreed to pay for. He would have been completely within his rights to refuse to pay for the extra dance.
If he had been unaware of the length of time, and put his total trust in the dancer (which isnt always prudent with dancers who you arent familiar with), she scammed him pure and simple. If he was aware that she started a seventh dance, and thought "great.. a freebie, since I didnt ask for this one", his awareness of it makes him culpable as well, and he should pay. We have no idea that either scenario happened, only he does, but both are examples of what can happen in the heat of the moment.
Personally, I too would have paid it, knowing full well she scammed me. the 20 dollars isnt worth the scene and ensuing headache that would follow. Since I know many customers scam dancers (which ruins it for the rest of us), it would be my word against hers anyway, in which case I suspect I would lose.
My "revenge" (for lack of a better word - I am not the vengeful type), though, would not be to never go there again. I would definitely go again, and get dances from everyone but her. My wealth would be spread around, with her being noticably absent as a recipient of it. And, I would fend of any entreaties by her for lapdances with politeness and tact. The gestalt of my endevors would be enough satisfaction for me - no need to sink into insults.
Thats just me.
Casual Observer
04-18-2005, 11:43 PM
its his job to say stop. pay up.
Get labelled ROB much?
NuttinbutLegs
04-19-2005, 01:02 AM
I like Archangel- you have really good points!
VenusGoddess
04-19-2005, 05:12 AM
its his job to say stop. pay up.
As a dancer, it's your job to count the dance. Especially if someone walked up to you, handed you enough money for 6 dances. If you go over, it's your bad...your loss. Why is that so hard to understand?
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 08:00 AM
If the guy doesnt say stop then he has to take some responsibility for that. If you do 6 dances theyve done at least 1 maybe even 2 set changes on stage so you can't really lose track. It's quite simple.
Emily
04-19-2005, 08:06 AM
If the guy doesnt say stop then he has to take some responsibility for that. If you do 6 dances theyve done at least 1 maybe even 2 set changes on stage so you can't really lose track. It's quite simple.
This makes sense to the dancer, because we're used to it. But of course this begs the question, if it's so simple to count dances, why did the girl do too many on accident?
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 08:14 AM
well with me I work in a high mileage club and if he has his hands on my waist when song 7 Im continuing, and he'spaying for 7.
doc-catfish
04-19-2005, 08:38 AM
If the guy doesnt say stop then he has to take some responsibility for that. If you do 6 dances theyve done at least 1 maybe even 2 set changes on stage so you can't really lose track. It's quite simple.
If you're doing dances out in the open this might be plausible. If you're doing them in some secluded corner or private room where you're not really paying attention to the DJ announcing the rotation, then no, its not so simple. I've seen even experienced dancers lose count because they got caught up in the spirit of things.
I will agree with you that a customer should take some responsibility and know when to wave the :stop: sign, (although that doesn't neccesarily mean that he's obliged to).
It just seems to me that in this particular situation (one that I would never personally put myself in), an honest dancer would be better off long term, stopping or at least pausing to ask if he'd like to continue beyond the pre-ordered quantity.
Is getting that extra $20 worth the unpleasant situation that would likely ensue, not to mention potentially losing hundreds or possibly thousands of dollars in future sales, and having word circulating around your club by dancers and customers alike that you're an ROB? If you're looking at the big picture, the answer is a definite no.
merely_lurking
04-19-2005, 08:41 AM
well with me I work in a high mileage club and if he has his hands on my waist when song 7 Im continuing, and he's paying for 7.
What if he doesn't? What exactly are you going to do about it?
Blade
04-19-2005, 08:46 AM
its his job to say stop. pay up.It's your job to pay attention to how many dances you do.
Customer says I want 6 dances then you do 6 dances, not 7 plain and simple.
If you do the 7th dance then it's on you...
Would I pay for it? Nope not at all, but then again I also count songs, pay attention to the dj, etc...Why? Because I work in the industry and am accustomed to it. When I was joe blow on the street I didn't concentrate on the behind the scenes bullshit, I was there to get my dance on
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 09:00 AM
I take his hands off me, get up and get my money and Im done with him.
In the 2 cases in 3 years that Ive had pay disputes, one guy went to the atm yet didnt actually go and tried to sneak out. The other guy was well known for trying to underpay for his dances and when the next song came up he didnt take his hands off me so I charged him for it.
And Im very easy to get along with, in fact Ive given a few dances away to some of my regulars when its their birthday etc. Or Ill give them a free one if they buy 3 etc. I understand things like long term business. But I also dont like being ripped off.
afxturnip
04-19-2005, 09:04 AM
And Im very easy to get along with
That's readily apparent...
-afx
merely_lurking
04-19-2005, 09:10 AM
And Im very easy to get along with....
Yes, you seem delightful.... ::)
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 09:10 AM
So what Im not entitled to an opinion or to vent once in awhile.
Madcap
04-19-2005, 09:14 AM
LOL! This thread rocks!
VenusGoddess
04-19-2005, 11:22 AM
The problem, of course, Amy...is that you are expecting the guy to be paying attention to the stage changes? Isn't he paying YOU to be focused on YOU while you are giving him a lap dance? If a customer gave me money for x amount of dances...I'm counting...or I'm losing money. It's that simple. It's the dancer's job to keep track...it's the customer's job to "get lost" in the fantasy of that lap dance.
I think it's time we abandon this myth of men being incapacitated by the presence of a stripper. He can count songs, he knew how many had passed, and probabally the reason he didn't stop her after the stated number of songs had passed was that he was taking advantage of her miscounting and trying to get a free bonus.
Call it a myth if you want, but us guys call it when the little head does the thinking for the big one...
Normally I do a great job of counting my dances by set and song (occupational hazard from counting artillery rounds or rifle shots fired:P), but there have been a few girls who have thrown my counting off. My ATF is one, she won't count them- she just relies on the counter guy in the back. We had a fight once because the counter's count didn't match mine. We settled and I tried to work on my timing of asking her to dance so I could count the full set- a lot easier than one song from set a, two for one, set b....}:D
A_Guy
04-19-2005, 11:52 AM
The problem, of course, Amy...is that you are expecting the guy to be paying attention to the stage changes? Isn't he paying YOU to be focused on YOU while you are giving him a lap dance? If a customer gave me money for x amount of dances...I'm counting...or I'm losing money. It's that simple. It's the dancer's job to keep track...it's the customer's job to "get lost" in the fantasy of that lap dance.
:lovestruc
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 11:58 AM
and if he gets lost and doesnt when to stop its his fault. If he has his hands on me as a new song starts Im continuing. To me that says he wants more.
A_Guy
04-19-2005, 12:24 PM
^ I went in on a Friday night (1st mistake), and did exactly that - pre-paid (2nd mistake)... she made no attempt to at least poorly fake that she wasn't an "all money no work" girl. So as soon as she got her money, she danced through three songs with as much emotion as a moldy toilet sponge. She could of done the chicken dance, because that would have been more intimate than her dance. She turned around, did her robotic "dance" moves, and continued to scope the crowd for her next sucker...errrr... target.....errrr.. I mean customer ;)
ahhh well.. live and learn.
dollylocks
04-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Amylynn, you have so many intelligent quotes to choose from, so this one will have to suffice
well with me I work in a high mileage club and if he has his hands on my waist when song 7 Im continuing, and he'spaying for 7.
Sounds like a scam to me...
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 01:22 PM
so dolly what are you trying to say. I shouldnt get paid for dances when I give them. Im not a scammer. Like I said Ive only had 2 payment issues in 3 years. It is my opinion that custys need to take responsibility for their actions.
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 01:27 PM
The word "assume" comes to mind when you think the guy wants more dances simply because he has his hands on you still.The proper protocol then is to ask if he wants any more.That way no one gets screwed and there is no miscommunication.
dollylocks
04-19-2005, 01:29 PM
Of course you should be paid for dances that you give, but...
Grinding+dance moves= dance
hands on waist because the last song just ended= NOT a dance
They should definitely take responsibility for their actions, but when they've done nothing wrong (ie expecting an "experienced, skilled" dancer to be able to count) then it is not neccessarily their fault.
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 01:41 PM
hands as the next song starts is a dance.
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 01:44 PM
The word "assume" comes to mind when you think the guy wants more dances simply because he has his hands on you still.The proper protocol then is to ask if he wants any more.That way no one gets screwed and there is no miscommunication.
I reiterate.
afxturnip
04-19-2005, 01:49 PM
Somebody hit the damn record player!
-afx
Muyaha
04-19-2005, 02:02 PM
So as soon as she got her money, she danced through three songs with as much emotion as a moldy toilet sponge. She could of done the chicken dance, because that would have been more intimate than her dance. She turned around, did her robotic "dance" moves, and continued to scope the crowd for her next sucker...errrr... target.....errrr.. I mean customer ;)
LOL moldy toilet sponge.
The word "assume" comes to mind when you think the guy wants more dances simply because he has his hands on you still.The proper protocol then is to ask if he wants any more.That way no one gets screwed and there is no miscommunication.
^I agree. Can't just assume. LD are based entirely on a verbal agreement of the dancer and the customer.
doc-catfish
04-19-2005, 02:32 PM
Any dancer who thinks that a guy is going be completely cognitive after he's had a beautiful semi-nude woman writhing her goodies in his face for 18-20 minutes is seriously selling her abilities short, or just doesn't understand men.
How hard is it to say, "That was six sweetie, would you like to continue?".
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 02:37 PM
One other thing.When you try to juice your customer for an extra dance like that,you are cutting off any future business with this fellow.Use your head.
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 03:12 PM
hasnt happend so far in 3 years. Ive had 2 payment issues in 3 years and I have a lot of regulars.
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 03:13 PM
Either way,it's bad business practice.Only casinos can get away with screwing people.
kansas dancer
04-19-2005, 03:27 PM
well with me I work in a high mileage club and if he has his hands on my waist when song 7 Im continuing, and he'spaying for 7.
Amylynne, I really know where you're coming from. Don't worry about what everyone else on here is saying.
When someone is taking their liberties with you in a high mileage club, nothing is free. Those last few minutes could have been the most annoying to the dancer, of course she should be paid for every second, every instant, she has her naked body on display.
And if this dude is so into the industry to stalk a strippers message forum, he knows what time it is and can count songs just like the rest of us.
....And the pizza analogy was MUCH better than mine, thanks to whoever posted that :)
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 03:29 PM
Exactly. Im not a scammer. I give great dances and I expect to be paid for them.
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 03:36 PM
I'm glad I don't work in a high mileage club.
Blade
04-19-2005, 04:44 PM
And if this dude is so into the industry to stalk a strippers message forum, he knows what time it is and can count songs just like the rest of us.
I'm lost who is stalking a strippers message forum?
onlythebest
04-19-2005, 04:50 PM
I'm lost too. :(
Pan Dah
04-19-2005, 05:14 PM
OK, I do know this is a different thing, but the timing of seeing this on the way home today amused me too much to let it pass by:
http://www.nydailynews.com/04-19-2005/city_life/advice/story/301191p-257855c.html
Get something you didn't order? Consider it a gift
Bernard Colvin doesn't mind paying for return postage - as long as he is shipping something that he ordered in the first place.
The Manhattan man is frustrated because he received a book he never ordered. He doesn't want to pay to keep it, and he doesn't want to pay to send it back.
"Is there not a law that states that any item not directly ordered by the customer is the property of said customer? What is the course of action in this situation?" he asked.
It's simple. A company should not send you merchandise without your express consent. If it does, federal law allows you legally to consider it a gift.
You can return it if you want, you can use it or you can discard it as you see fit. No matter what you choose to do with it, you are under no obligation to pay for it or to return it.
The Federal Trade Commission suggests sending the shipper a note to say that you intend to keep the unordered merchandise you received - and any future unordered shipments.
Whether the merchandise was sent by intention or error, a note that clearly states your intention to keep unsolicited merchandise should discourage any bills or dunning notices, the FTC said.
It should also cut down on the number of trips a consumer has to make to the post office. Consumers are less likely to receive unordered merchandise once they stop sending it back.
Some companies that sell books, compact disks and tapes automatically send shipments to their subscribers. Known as negative option plans, they are regulated by state and federal laws. The laws require companies to obtain your consent before sending you merchandise.
A company cannot send you a solicitation and assume you want to participate because you never responded. If itdoes, the merchandise you receive is considered unsolicited, and yours to keep.
Originally published on April 19, 2005
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 05:17 PM
youre such a dork
BigGreenMnM
04-19-2005, 05:25 PM
Or Ill give them a free one if they buy 3 etc. I understand things like long term business. But I also dont like being ripped off.
Im sure this is ok in your club,but in all the clubs i have ever worked in,this could be considered undercutting the other girls.
If you charge 10 dollars less,or give one away every three,IMO its undercutting and makes it harder for other entertainers to sell dances to those custies who have struck a deal with you.
This flies in the face of "long term business"and having an "understanding" of it imo.You end up working more,making less,and pissing off everyone you work with.
BigGreenMnM
04-19-2005, 05:31 PM
The problem, of course, Amy...is that you are expecting the guy to be paying attention to the stage changes? Isn't he paying YOU to be focused on YOU while you are giving him a lap dance? If a customer gave me money for x amount of dances...I'm counting...or I'm losing money. It's that simple. It's the dancer's job to keep track...it's the customer's job to "get lost" in the fantasy of that lap dance.
Bottom line.Well said.
VG summed it up really,it shows a respect for her chosen craft.
yoda57us
04-19-2005, 05:31 PM
And if this dude is so into the industry to stalk a strippers message forum, he knows what time it is and can count songs just like the rest of us.
Stalking is a pretty strong word here. This IS the CUSTOMER CONVERSATION section of SW. Last time I checked, our input was encouraged here.
That aside...
If a guy asks for six dances he's a dope if he doesn't keep track himself. It's obvious from the responses here that not all dancers or customers see things the same way when it comes to who is responsible for keeping score and who is in the wrong if the lady doesn't stop after what was requested.
As a customer, paying up front for dances is even dumber than not keeping track. If we can't trust our entertainer's memory over a 15 or 20 minute span then how can we trust their math skills.
The bottom line is guys try to rip off dancers everyday and it's wrong. Dancers trying to rip of guys is no less wrong. The main thing to remember as a customer is that you have control of your wallet and who gets your money.
amylynnej
04-19-2005, 05:41 PM
Its only on birthdays etc. I dont do it everytime. sheesh.
Pan Dah
04-19-2005, 05:46 PM
youre such a dork
Yep.
Ain't it wonderful?!
Dorks have so much more fun than scamming bitches with bad attitudes and no sense of humor or irony, who go through life constantly on the defensive thinking everyone is out to get them.
(Fortunately, the girls at my club love the money dorks spend on them and treat us nicely).