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BigGreenMnM
04-21-2005, 06:33 PM
Should I take your answer to mean that isn't part of what drives your opinions ?

I think 9/11 is a pivital moment in history.I think it drives the opinions of people from all sides of the debate.
You seem to be very defensive about 9/11.




Well that is ALL propganda extracted from taking their scripture way way way out of context for the purpose of making people dislike/hate Muslims. I see it has worked in your case:'(
Your not suggesting 9/11 was propaganda are you??

Are you suggesting islam had nothing to do with it??

why do you think they did it???


And it isn't a "sarah" ::) (the correct name for what you seem to be refering to is shari'a- that alone shows you don't know much about the religion if you don't even know what to call the things you profess to want to see changed) nor does the religion state that all non believers should be killed. It calls for violence ONLY if non believers try to force Muslims to also become or live as non believers.

After this long you aint figured out i cant spell for shit???
As for your interpritation of the sarah,I think your sugar coating what it really says.It has been posted here before in another thread.
Maybe you dont know as much about it as you think??


Also they aren't raising people to be an enemy of everyone else but rather to be true to and protect the right to have their own beliefs.
I have no problem with that at all,except the part that says kill me because im a non beliver,even wait in ambush.



Off to work now. Have a good evening everyone!
Gotta ask,are you an islamic entertainer???

Hello~Kitty
04-21-2005, 09:43 PM
You seem to be very defensive about 9/11. What ???? I simply asked if 9/11 is what drives your opinions on Muslims. How does that make me defending 9/11 ? Please point out where I have defended the 9/11 attack ? You can't because I have not supported the actions of the terrorist AT ALL EVER ! And for you to imply that I support or am defending such a horrific event is utterly disgusting and has earned you the honor of being my first and hopefully last name on this sites ignore list.


Your not suggesting 9/11 was propaganda are you?? That comment is just pure stupidity. Probably intended as flambait and not even close to what I wrote. What I was CLEARLY refering to was your thoughts that Muslims want to kill all non Muslim believers and that they raise their kids to be an enemy of everyone else was in fact propganda.


Are you suggesting islam had nothing to do with it??
Islam itself had nothing to do with 9/11.....terrorist who are misusing the religion as an excuse are what happened.


the part that says kill me because im a non beliver,even wait in ambush Again that is pure propganda. It's a LIE fed to you by rightwing anti Muslim propoganda which has taken bits and parts of scripture WAY the fuck out of context . Those of us here whop have ACTUAL knowledge of the culture know that..... what you seem to be confused about , as I already explained once is that the scripture calls for violence ONLY if non believers try to force Muslims to also become or live as non believers.



Gotta ask,are you an islamic entertainer???

No I am not. I am however a political science major as well as have close Muslim friends and I grew up living next door a Muslim family to for 15 years of my life. I have had countless meals with Muslim people, countless slumber parties in a Muslim home even been on a vaction with a Muslim family

And the final thing I have to say to you is that even though you have frustrated me with this extreem level of ignorance and prejudice which you express......... more than anything else I feel saddness for the intense ignorance and prejudice that so obviously lies within you. It is my hope that someday, somehow you will lose both your extreem ignorance and prejudice and replace it with knowledge , compassion and a deeper understanding of the world. Even though I will no longer subject myself to your postings I do wish you and yours peace and happiness.

See ya~ thankful not to be ya 8)

Incognita
04-21-2005, 10:15 PM
It's called a Surah, but you have it wrong. Surah means chapter and Aayat means verse. There are no chapters of the quran dedicated to telling muslims to kill the unbeliever. Here are some verses of the qur'an that talk about how Muslims should deal, in general, withthose who reject Islam

This is one of the most important (and shortest) chapters of the qur'an.

Qul ya ayyuhal kaafirun
Say those who reject faith (kafir is also sometimes translated as infidel)
Laa a'abudu maa ta'budun
I worship not that which you worship
wa laa antum aabiduna maa abatum
Nor do you worship that which I worship
lakum deenukum waliy ad deen
To you be your religion and to me mine.

In case you don't believe me, it is surah 109. You can go to any Borders or Barnes and Noble bookstore to the religion section and look it up yourself.

Now, I know what verses of qur'an you are talking about and I am about to post them the truth is that the enemies of Islam DO in fact take them out of context. The qur'an is studied and interpreted (and has been since its revelation 1430 some odd years ago) understanding that some verses are conditional i.e. applying to certain times or certain situations and others are to be applied unconditionally, or almost.

OK in Surah (chapter) II of the Qur'an Aayat (verse) 191 it says:

And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Then aayat (verse) 192 says
But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Then aayat (verse) 193 says
And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Now, let's take a look at those verses. Especially this part, "and drive them out from whence they drove you out." Who is the qur'ans author (God, according to Muslims) talking to? The qur'an was revealed 1400 years ago, was he talking to Muslims in the 21rst century? If so, who drove who from where? No, this is talking about a very specific situation and even then it orders that if those who are oppressing and stealing the land of Muslims stop their actions, then Muslims must stop *defensive* action against those people. The third verse says that religon *should* be only for Allah, but if they (those who don't believe in Islam) stop persecuting Muslims then Muslims should not be hostile toward them, except those who oppress others.

So unless you and yours are actively engaged in murdering Muslims and stealing their land, then you have nothing to worry about. And, of course, if you were murdering anyone and stealing their land, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, they'd have a legal and moral right to defend themselves in any way they could.

Hello~Kitty
04-21-2005, 10:19 PM
Ah see ...he was so far off on what he was going for I couldn't even decifer what he meant !


Thanks to Incognita for taking over on this one...I can't deal with it anymore...sigh.

Sh0t
04-22-2005, 07:06 AM
Which muslim stood down Norad? How did the Muslims bring down WTC building #7? Did Allah do that?

"Islam" did not commit 911. Your fucking government committed 911, same as it committed the Oklahoma city bombing, the first WTC attack, Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Maine, and so on

Even got caught explicitly considering a hijacking scenario to start a war with Cuba in the 60s:


Let's say Muslims DID commit 911. Do you have any idea what americans have been doing to muslims for the last 70 years? Enough for several THOUSAND 911s. Just the damage caused in Iraq for the last 15 years makes 911 look like a mugging. But yes, they hate us because the Koran says so. Not because of our bombs, our interference in their politics, our depleted uranium turning their children into mutants, destruction of utility services, etc.

Maybe America should turn Islam. MIght have less war that way. This judeo-christian shit certainly isn't working.

How about the oppression of the Palestinians? Why are americans paying taxes to fund that? Which we/they are.

Jesus said "Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?"

That's some shit you should contemplate Big. Before you start talking about Muslims trying to kill you, maybe you should take a look at what "you" are doing to Muslims around the globe. Maybe they aren't following the Koran, simply acting out in frustration and in self-defense.

Nah. THey just hate our freedom like GWB said. That must be why GWB is working hard to remove them, Patriot Acts and DHS, and so forth. He must figure if we get rid of our freedoms, the terrorists will have no reason to attack us. Were you also that guy who said he works for DHS?

Element
04-22-2005, 08:53 AM
I haven't read ever message on this thread yet but on the Islam and homosexuality I found these articles on a Islam site.

Islamic Ruling Concerning Homosexuality: (http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=260)

Islam considers homosexuality as a sexual deviation leading to a perverted act which goes against the natural order Allah intended for mankind. It is a corruption of the man's sexuality and a crime against the opposite sex. Therefore, the Islamic shari'ah strictly prohibits the practice of this perverted act. This is mentioned in many places in the holy Qur'an.

The story of the people of the prophet Lut who were addicted to this practice, is the best example. Prophet Lut, alayhessalam said to his people: "Verily, you do sodomy with men, and rob the wayfarer! And practice all wickedness in your meetings," (Al-A-nkabut, 29:29). And he said to them: "Of all the creatures ofthe world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!" (Al-Shu'ara', 26:165-166) But their answer to Prophet Lut, alayhessalam, was: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if you are telling us the Truth." (Al-Ankabut, 29:29). And so Allah gave them the punishment they deserved: "And We rained on them a rain of torment. And how evil was the rain of those who had been warned," (Al-Shu'ara', 26:173).

Just as a person who has a sexual urge should not satsfy it by committing zina, a person who has this perverted thought should not act upon it. In order to maintain the purity of the Muslim society, most Muslim scholars have ruled that the punishment for this act should be the same as for zina (i.e. one hundred whiplashes for the man who has never married, and death by stoning for the married man). Some have even ruled that it should be death for both partners, because the Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, said: "Kill the doer and the one to whom it was done." (Related by Al-Bayhaqi).


And from IslamOnline - Ask About Islam (http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=5011):

There are five references in the Qur'an, which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with ?effeminate men? and ?masculine women.? The two main references to homosexual behavior are in Surah 7, verses 80 ? 81, where the Qur?an says that:

*{We also sent Lut. He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation [ever] committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.}*

Then Surah 26, verse 165 says that:

*{What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk.}*

Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur'an. Lut is referred to as "Lot" in the Hebrew Scriptures. This passage is an apparent reference to the activities at Sodom and Gamorah.

It seems to imply that there was no homosexual behavior before it first appeared in Sodom. This is a uniquely Islamic concept; it does not appear in Jewish or Christian beliefs. The passage also links the sin of Sodom - the reason for its destruction - to homosexuality.

There is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be sinful and a perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful.

They only differ in terms of penalty. Some say that no physical punishment is warranted. Some see that severe punishment is warranted, while others require a minimum of 4 adult male witnesses before a person can be found guilty of a homosexual act.

Destiny
04-23-2005, 09:54 AM
I haven't read ever message on this thread yet but on the Islam and homosexuality I found these articles on a Islam site Well if you had read ever post, you would realize that facts are not welcome in this thread. ::)

It's funny that most of the posters here will rip into the religious right with abandoned yet defend a religion that imprisons and beats people for their sexual orientation.

Gay Saudi men sentenced to jail, flogging (http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/04/07/4)

Patrick Letellier, PlanetOut Network

published Thursday, April 7, 2005

More than 100 men in Saudi Arabia were sentenced this week to imprisonment and flogging after being arrested in March for "deviant sexual behavior," the Human Rights Watch announced today.

The men were arrested for dancing (http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/03/18/4) and "behaving like women" at a private party in a rented hall, according to Al-Wifaq, a government-affiliated Saudi newspaper. The paper claimed the men were attending a gay wedding.mosexuality is illegal in Saudi Arabia and is punishable by imprisonment, corporal punishment or death. Last month, two gay men, Ahmed al-Enezi and Shahir al-Roubli, were beheaded (http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/03/14/4) after government officials claimed the men had killed a third man who had threatened to "expose" their relationship Homosexuality is illegal in Saudi Arabia and is punishable by imprisonment, corporal punishment or death. Last month, two gay men, Ahmed al-Enezi and Shahir al-Roubli,

So someone explain to me. Which is the greater evil? Not letting gays be foster parents because of their sexual orientation or putting them in prison?

Hello~Kitty
04-23-2005, 02:00 PM
sigh...again Destiny you have proven you do not know much of anything about which you speak, er write.... so I remind you of the following:


It seems you have taken some things from here and some things from there and assumed that all countries that have a population that is majority Muslim are the same. Just take a look at Bashar Al Assad's wife, she doesn't even wear hijab. Also, people who adhere to Islam are called Muslims not "islamic men".

There are major differences between law in Iran where women vote, drive, run for public office, run institutions of higher learning etc. and Saudi Arabia where women can do none of the above. Really just do some research you are way off the mark.

As for your last question neither is more evil than the other because they come from the same place as it seems your opinions on Muslim's come from .... which is PREJUDICE.

I can tell you are a smart cookie so please stop discrediting yourself with this all Muslims are the same attitude.

Not all Muslims are the same, just as not all Christians are the same. Think about it...not all Catholics are against abortion. Not all Republicans hate gays, not all black people eat chittlin(sp?) or watermelon and so on and so on.

Why do you insist on painting people with one broad brush stroke ? What does that accomplish except prejudice, discrimination and stereotyping ?

Incognita
04-23-2005, 02:16 PM
Destiny has found a comfort in her ignorance. Destiny perhaps you should check out these people http://www.tegenwicht.org/16_imams/al_fatiha_en.htm

threlayer
04-23-2005, 03:18 PM
FIRST --
I have come across both liberal Muslims and very conservative ones, maybe even reactionary ones. Actually many of both. They generally dislike each other (who would have thought). Personally I dislike the reactionary ones because their thoughts come out of the 7th Century AD and are quite extreme and harsh. But then I dislike reactionary Christians and Jews too for similar reasons. Both groups give us regular people some very bad vibes.

SECOND --
The veil and hair cover is not a religious SYMBOL--in spite of what the French and some here may think. It is instead an attempt to obey the command for women to remain modest in public. Along with full length, baggy dresses.

Now to me, this is quite extreme and as Muslim women come to adapt to more contemporary western ways, they tend to not use these. I do not understand the Muslim ways of thinking that women must be kept on a leash to restrain their sexuality to that inside their marriage and their men be kept away from carnal temptations REGARDLESS of their actual behavior.

In my opinion when many Muslim men get into less repressive societies, they sometimes are not prepared to act morally, despite their teachings. Further I have seen Muslim women just off the plane, behind their veils, giving passing men some pretty thorough once overs. To me this indicates that their religious society is quite inflexible and very fragile and socially unsuccessful.

Religion cannot successfully foil biology, but it can give people neuroses in the attempt.

Element
04-23-2005, 04:26 PM
Destiny has found a comfort in her ignorance. Destiny perhaps you should check out these people http://www.tegenwicht.org/16_imams/al_fatiha_en.htm

Can you tell me what countries that have Al-Fatiha members in them?
I have met many Muslims my self they all where quite friendly however.
They are a minority in this in US so I wouldn't expect them to act differently.
Don't get me wrong many or good people but that doesn't mean we have to agree with their religion.
Its quite clear from the articles that I got from Islam web sites that homosexuality is prohibited.
Its the same reason you will never get everyone to agree with Christianity

Element
04-24-2005, 07:22 AM
There are many different translations so it's hard to tell which one is more accurate.
These are some of the verses dealing with killing the unbelievers.

Eidit to add:
There are three versions of each verse.


002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have

Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the

Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the

reward of those who suppress faith.

PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence

they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the

Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then

slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove

you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred

Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the

recompense of the unbelievers.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.191





008.065
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you,

patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a

thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they

shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a

thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without

intelligence.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they

shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand

of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.065







047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length,

when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time

for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded):

but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself);

but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way

of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks

until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or

ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could

have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by

means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions

vain.

SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when

you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a

favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah

had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some

of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no

means allow their deeds to perish.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/047.qmt.html#047.004

Element
04-24-2005, 07:28 AM
Also on women and Islam



In Saudi Arabia in March, at least 14 girls may have died unnecessarily in a school fire because of extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code. Members of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice interfered with rescue efforts because the fleeing students were not wearing the obligatory public attire (long black cloaks and head coverings) for Saudi girls and women. Also in Saudi Arabia, women's testimonies in court are equal to half those of a man.

A woman in Pakistan who has been raped and wants the state to prosecute her case must have four Muslim men testify that they witnessed the assault. Absent these male witnesses, effectively the rape victim has no case. Equally alarming, if she cannot prove the rape allegation, she runs a very high risk of being charged with fornication or adultery, the criminal penalty for which is either a long prison sentence, including public whipping, or, though rarely, death by stoning.

The application of Shariah is not limited to criminal matters, but in some countries some aspects of Shariah also govern civil matters. Morocco's "personal status code" (the Mudawwana) is one example. Under it, women are treated as legal minors and denied legal autonomy to conclude their own marriage contracts. This code establishes male authority over female family members, requires women to obey their husbands in all matters, and sharply limits women's -- though not men's -- access to divorce. Moroccan law further discriminates against women in the marriage process by allowing men to have up to four wives simultaneously.

There will no doubt be significant and vigorous disagreement about whether the above examples are faithful interpretations and applications of Shariah. While this is being debated, millions of women living under Shariah contend with laws and practice that make a mockery of international human rights protections and endanger their lives.
http://hrw.org/editorials/2002/women0822.htm

Destiny
04-24-2005, 12:54 PM
As for your last question neither is more evil than the other because they come from the same place as it seems your opinions on Muslim's come from .... which is PREJUDICE.Surely you are not serious. You truly believe that not allowing gays to be foster parents is equally as evil as beating them and imprisoning them?

Hello~Kitty
04-24-2005, 01:23 PM
Being that both actions come from the same place(which is hate, ignorance, fear of the unfamilar, prejudice etc) within a person, yes I am serious.

There are massive numbers of Republicans and so called Christians who express their wish to eliminate homosexuals ....does that somehow mean that ALL Christians or Republicans feel that way? No.....and the same is true about Muslim people as well. Your denial of that doesn't make it untrue either, it just makes you in denial :'(

Destiny , it's very clear that you are simply just prejudice against Muslims and have chosen to refuse to see both the good as well as the bad in the culture and religion as well that there are variations in Muslim culture from country to country.....and as I have mentioned before that no one except you can change that because it is a personal choice.

Not all Muslims are the same.... maybe someday you will open your eyes and mind to that fact. But it obviously isn't happening at this time so..... I am finished wasting my time with you on this subject matter.

Element
04-24-2005, 01:31 PM
Which muslim stood down Norad? How did the Muslims bring down WTC building #7? Did Allah do that?

"Islam" did not commit 911. Your fucking government committed 911, same as it committed the Oklahoma city bombing, the first WTC attack, Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Maine, and so on

Can you explane how are goverment committed 911 and the oklahoma City bombing??

Melonie
04-24-2005, 06:41 PM
"Islam" did not commit 911. Your fucking government committed 911, same as it committed the Oklahoma city bombing, the first WTC attack, Ruby Ridge, Waco, the Maine, and so on

Bring on the conspiracy theories !!!





~

Destiny
04-24-2005, 07:01 PM
Being that both actions come from the same place(which is hate, ignorance, fear of the unfamilar, prejudice etc) within a person, yes I am serious. So by your same "logic" America's discrimination against Jews in the early 1900's was the moral equivalent of Hitler's death camps? After all they were both rooted in the evil of "prejudice".


There are massive numbers of Republicans and so called Christians who express their wish to eliminate homosexuals ....does that somehow mean that ALL Christians or Republicans feel that way? No.....and the same is true about Muslim people as well. Your denial of that doesn't make it untrue either, it just makes you in denial :'( "eliminate"? Oh please. It's ironic how you can preach tolerance for every evil group on earth except one. Christians. Now I'm certainly not going to defend the Religious Right. However, I will point out that you are correct, there are indeed groups cruising around looking to beat and imprison and probably even "eliminate" gays. In Mulsim countries. What's next? You going to tell me that the CIA invented AIDS? As I"ve said before the place on the earth where Muslims enjoy the greatest amount of religious freedoms is the U.S.


Destiny , it's very clear that you are simply just prejudice against Muslims and have chosen to refuse to see both the good as well as the bad in the culture and religion as well that there are variations in Muslim culture from country to country.....and as I have mentioned before that no one except you can change that because it is a personal choice.I'm not prejudice against Muslims. Their religion is one of hate that espouses the degradation of women and the demonization of anyone who disagrees. That's a fact, taken from their own "Holy Book". Go to a group like Human Rights Watch and look at their map of the world. They have the countries of the world color coded based on the freedoms thier citizen's enjoy. Almost every country with a Muslim majority is listed as either "Not Free" or only "Partially Free". On the other hand, most of the countries founded primarily by people holding to traditional Judeo-Christian values are almost all listed as "Free". A coincidence? I don't think so.


Not all Muslims are the same.... maybe someday you will open your eyes and mind to that fact. But it obviously isn't happening at this time so..... I am finished wasting my time with you on this subject matter.I see just fine, thank you. The only thing is, I refuse to see the world through the blinders of Political-Correctness. I do agree with you on one thing though. If you really and truly cannot distinguish between a small part of a society that doesn't want gays to be foster parents and a society that beats and imprisons them, then yes, the entire discussion is a waste of time.

Fearless Fairy
04-24-2005, 08:56 PM
I'm not prejudice against Muslims. Their religion is one of hate that espouses the degradation of women and the demonization of anyone who disagrees

Well it sure looks like a prejudice and ignorant attitude to me.

BigGreenMnM
04-25-2005, 05:38 AM
I dunno,seems like Destiny has made some valid points that have gone unanswered.

I say valid because it seems most of the country,most religions,and most of the people around the world agree with the things she says and a very small percent of the world agrees with you.

Doesnt that tell you anything??

Katrine
04-25-2005, 05:56 AM
I dunno,seems like Destiny has made some valid points that have gone unanswered.

I say valid because it seems most of the country,most religions,and most of the people around the world agree with the things she says and a very small percent of the world agrees with you.

Doesnt that tell you anything??

Most of this country have only media anti-Islam propoganda as exposure to Muslims, and even most foreigners.

Who said most of the people in the world agree with Destiny regarding Islam? Which countries are these and how much of the world's populace do they comprimise?

Church and state is not seperated in some muslim countries. And other secular countries with high muslim population are militant. Its a big world out there. I believe that if Christianity went unchecked it would be the same type of world as the conservative Islamic countries have now.

Yes, its a religion commonly found in many backwards countries. Let's go ahead and keep electing concservative Christian republicans to office and see how fast we can catch up, *cough* fall back.

BigGreenMnM
04-25-2005, 06:42 AM
Most of this country have only media anti-Islam propoganda as exposure to Muslims, and even most foreigners.

Oh i agree!
Its really this countries only source imo,and the story is never the same from one source to another!Its a shame you have to watch them all and form your own opinion on what the truth is.



Who said most of the people in the world agree with Destiny regarding Islam? Which countries are these and how much of the world's populace do they comprimise?

Yikes,that would be hard to add up and i dont know where to go to find the stats to show you.
Maybe if we took the current or last 10 major military confrontations in the world and counted how many were muslim on one side,that would give us somewhat of a count,except for where it was an islamic country on BOTH sides.


Church and state is not seperated in some muslim countries. And other secular countries with high muslim population are militant. Its a big world out there. I believe that if Christianity went unchecked it would be the same type of world as the conservative Islamic countries have now.

Oh hell yea,we christians are the worse!!!
We have many skels in the closet and continue to build on that collection daily im afraid.


Yes, its a religion commonly found in many backwards countries. Let's go ahead and keep electing concservative Christian republicans to office and see how fast we can catch up, *cough* fall back.


On many fronts,It can be said that Islam is whats keeping the countries "backwards".

True or false??

I think Islam needs to find its place in the modern world.A good start in my opinion would be a updated,"new testement"version of the quran.Specially the part about killing non belivers,even wait in ambush.(the part i still have not seen anyone post again)

Fearless Fairy
04-25-2005, 09:35 AM
Oh i agree!
Specially the part about killing non belivers,even wait in ambush.(the part i still have not seen anyone post again)

WTF ? Did you just ignore all the previous replies about this misunderstanding you have about killing non believers or what ?

Take a look again. Two different people explained this to you already. Now with me that makes three people, so I hope you get it now. I am going to put some boldface in one of the replies to highlight the parts you seem to be ignoring just to be sure you don't miss it this time.


nor does the religion state that all non believers should be killed. It calls for violence ONLY if non believers try to force Muslims to also become or live as non believers.


unless you and yours are actively engaged in murdering Muslims and stealing their land, then you have nothing to worry about. And, of course, if you were murdering anyone and stealing their land, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, they'd have a legal and moral right to defend themselves in any way they could.

Element
04-25-2005, 09:59 AM
Why does their holy book call for violence to begin with?
Their book is full of verses on dealing with non believers most of them aren't very appealing.

Perhaps I should post more verse from the Koran?

BigGreenMnM
04-25-2005, 10:36 AM
Their book is full of verses on dealing with non believers most of them aren't very appealing.

Perhaps I should post more verse from the Koran?
That would be great,specially the part about ,kill all none belivers,even wait in ambush.

Up until this point,its been alot of people posting interpritations of the verse,as pointed out by Fairy.

foxy
04-25-2005, 12:20 PM
oh no...if anything i should be the one answering all this...i swear its a mens world out here ..here having a boyfriend is like sinning..they go by arranged marriages...they're very narrow-minded people..& there very racist towards other religions..guys here can do whatever..girls can't go out often...everything is done here by force..honestly islam is the worst religion..noone can cope with it....9/11 in an islamic prespective is considered a very good thing ..they are evil ..in kuwait men exceed the number of women..population wise & thats very unusual worldwide but its like that cuz girls here get killed ..or they die from depression...if you welcome them then they will take over trust me!!!

foxy
04-25-2005, 12:46 PM
by the way i don't like to generalise..i know there are peaceful muslims out there ..but i just don't want americans to get heavily influenced by them in the nearby future << lol like thats gonna happen .. im just a paranoid person i guess!!

BigGreenMnM
04-25-2005, 03:07 PM
if you welcome them then they will take over trust me!!!

Im sorry your in what you consider such an unhappy situation.I hope you find improvment soon and discover your own place in this world.


I think its the Islamic females that are the only hope for the future of the faith.
I think they will be instramental in the changes they will make and i think bye affording them the same worldwide rights that females are entitled to,or something really freekin close,The middle east will be cleaned out,and a great place to vacation during the winter.

I wish the females in your country alot of luck,it wont be easy and its going to take time,but it will happen.I think the females of the world have said "enough"and many changes are comming for you.

Best of everything.

Destiny
04-25-2005, 09:59 PM
Some data from Freedom House:

In 2003, there were 47 countries with a Muslim majority. Of those 47 countries, only 9 were electoral democracies, leaving 38 countries or 81% were non electoral democracies. Let's look at the freedoms enjoyed by the citizens of these Muslim majority countries. Of those same 47 countries, only 2 countries (4%) are rated as "Free". 18 countires (38%) are listed as only, "Partly Free", and 27 countries (58%) are rated as "Not Free".

For comparison, among non-muslim countires, 87 countries (60%) were rated "Free", 37 countries (26%) were rated as "Partly Free" and just 21 countries (14%) were rated as "Not Free".

The Complete Report (http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2003/charts.pdf)

For those that would deny the role of Islam in oppressing not just women, but all people. Check out Freedom House's Map Of Freedom (http://www.freedomhouse.org/pdf_docs/research/freeworld/2004/map2004.pdf). Notice how almost every Muslim country in the middle east is "Not Free"? Is this a coincidence? I've proposed that the Islamic faith, with it's opression of women, demonization of opposing faiths and intolerance of dissent is the primary cause of this. But I'm open for other explanations.

foxy
04-26-2005, 12:58 AM
Im sorry your in what you consider such an unhappy situation.I hope you find improvment soon and discover your own place in this world.


I think its the Islamic females that are the only hope for the future of the faith.
I think they will be instramental in the changes they will make and i think bye affording them the same worldwide rights that females are entitled to,or something really freekin close,The middle east will be cleaned out,and a great place to vacation during the winter.

I wish the females in your country alot of luck,it wont be easy and its going to take time,but it will happen.I think the females of the world have said "enough"and many changes are comming for you.

Best of everything.

i'm not muslim but it's still a very unpleasant place to live in whether you're muslim or not & i am gonna try to move out..anyway i just like to thank you for your warm and kind wishes

Hello~Kitty
04-26-2005, 09:38 AM
For those that would deny the role of Islam in oppressing not just women, but all people

Sigh.....No one denied that there are problems in many Muslim countries.

All we are saying is it isn't right to view all Muslim people the same way as they are not the same. Or use the problems that occur in many Muslim countries as an excuse to discriminate against people of Muslim faith

Destiny
04-26-2005, 11:07 AM
Sigh.....No one denied that there are problems in many Muslim countries.

All we are saying is it isn't right to view all Muslim people the same way as they are not the same. Or use the problems that occur in many Muslim countries as an excuse to discriminate against people of Muslim faith Sorry but you are wrong. You started this thread with this quote:

" American values are, by and large, very consistent with Islamic values, with a focus on family, faith, hard work, and an obligation to better self and society."

That's wrong. American's value electing their own representatives, personal freedom, the right to dissent. In neither word nor deed are Islamic values consistent with American values.

I would be interested in your answer to my question though. Why is it that so many countries with Muslim majorities are so repressive and deny their citizens' basic human rights?

Lurker
04-26-2005, 11:30 AM
Two points:

1. I don't think HK's statement that started this thread is worth very much. Almost any society or non-fringe group within society has a collection of positive attributes which they could describe as their "goals"...Which government or internationally significant movement is AGAINST family, faith, hard work, or an obligation to better self and society? Communism, maybe, in the case of the first two? Having said that, I don't really agree with Destiny stressing the attributes of American society which are found the least in Islamic nations and saying that therefore it's a problem with ISLAM. Do Muslims in the US wish they couldn't elect representatives or express their opinons? Do their leaders in the US tell them not to do so? It's not a Muslim problem--it's a problem with the particular governments of those particular countries.

2. Looking at the map that Destiny provides, it's clear that the most repressive religion is...Confucianism! Name a Confucian country that is free! Not only that, look at how many more people are "not free" under Confucianism than under Islam! Buddhism also looks to be pretty damn oppressive...Of the 4 countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) the only one that's "not free" is the one with the military dictatorship propped up by the US!

The point being that extremist governments can take a religion or an ideology (communism is clearly the real root of the problem our Buddhist friends are having) to its extreme and rob people of what we Westerners in our enlightenment of the last few hundred years have decided are their rights. It doesn't make Islam evil or misguided, any more than the Inquisition by some misguided/greedy governments in medieval Europe makes Christianity evil.

Hello~Kitty
04-26-2005, 12:03 PM
1. I don't think HK's statement that started this thread is worth very much.


Gee uhm thanks, LOL ! I appreciate you sharing your views though as you made several excellant points in your post :)


Sorry but you are wrong. You started this thread with this quote:

" American values are, by and large, very consistent with Islamic values, with a focus on family, faith, hard work, and an obligation to better self and society."
For the 2nd or is the 3rd time...those are not my words they come from the link I posted.... and it is just your opinion that the statement is wrong...others including myself disagree with you. Learn to deal with it, please.


I would be interested in your answer to my question though. Why is it that so many countries with Muslim majorities are so repressive and deny their citizens' basic human rights?


Because it is has been that way for centuries and change is typicaly a slow process...... for example it wasn't eventhat long ago that black people right here in the US didn't have some of the very same rights you complain about some Muslim people not being afforded and gays in the US arte STILL denied equal rights and that is right here in the good ole USA....... btw it isn't only Muslim countries that are behind on civil rights, plenty of non Muslim countries are also way behind.That is a fact even if you choose to ignore it. Take many countries in Africa for instance.


Your instance that Muslim people countries and culture are as you put it many times on this website "evil" is a clear cut proof of your blatant PREJUDICE and lack of knowledge beyond anti Muslim PROPGANDA.

wait ... grr.... I said I wasn't going to discuss this with you anymore. Be gone oh prejudice one, LOL !

H~K now adding a second person to her ignore list...Destiny now joins BigGreenMnM. Both have been added due to what I find to be extreem prejudiced views and argumentive nature.

Destiny
04-26-2005, 12:20 PM
Lurker: First of all, thanks for the intelligent dissent!


Two points:

1. ...Having said that, I don't really agree with Destiny stressing the attributes of American society which are found the least in Islamic nations and saying that therefore it's a problem with ISLAM. Do Muslims in the US wish they couldn't elect representatives or express their opinons?Well, if you were a "true" believer, then I would guess that no, you would desire the leaders that Allah wanted you to have. I would think that being exposed to our "western" ideas about representative government would have an impact on people though. For example, I've heard that a lot of the leaders of pro-democracy movements in China were educated in the west, specifically the U.S. This has become so much of a problem that the chinese are thinking about limiting the number of students allowed to study in the west. Personally, I could imagine something similar happening in Muslim countries as well.


Do their leaders in the US tell them not to do so? I bet a lot of them do. There are a lot of leaders that don't want their followers questioning the status quo, in all areas of life.


It's not a Muslim problem--it's a problem with the particular governments of those particular countries. So your contention then is that the fact that so many Muslim majortiy countries are very repressive is that it is just a coincidence? Could be, personally I don't think so.


2. Looking at the map that Destiny provides, it's clear that the most repressive religion is...Confucianism! Name a Confucian country that is free! Not only that, look at how many more people are "not free" under Confucianism than under Islam! Buddhism also looks to be pretty damn oppressive...Of the 4 countries with the largest Muslim populations (Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh) the only one that's "not free" is the one with the military dictatorship propped up by the US! I mentioned only Muslim countries in the middle east. However, your mentioning Confucianism and Buddhism leads to the point I was trying to make. What is it that allows these oppressive tyrannical regimes to remain in power? Is it cultural, economic, regional, ethnic, or religion? For example, if you belive in re-incarnation, might you be much more willing to put up with oppression in this life since you get another one at death? Also, if you are raised with a very authoritarian outlook on life, would that not make you more inclined to put up with a dictator who exercised total control? We are all products of both our inherent nature and our environment. However, I think that the desire for personal freedom, and the right to pursue a better life is innate in all humans. Some religions actively work to suppress that desire and that is wrong.


The point being that extremist governments can take a religion or an ideology (communism is clearly the real root of the problem our Buddhist friends are having) to its extreme and rob people of what we Westerners in our enlightenment of the last few hundred years have decided are their rights. It doesn't make Islam evil or misguided, any more than the Inquisition by some misguided/greedy governments in medieval Europe makes Christianity evil.While some extremist governments do use religion in the pursuit of control, I mostly disagree. I think that extremist governments find it easier to take root in places where a certain ideology is the norm, Islam being one example. The most detestable thing for me is the way some religions, Islam being an example, "get in bed" with the government in order to further their own power. Despite what has been posted here, I have no problem whatsoever with Islam requiring women to wear a head covering/veil whatever. Whether its celibate catholic priests or veiled women, any religion should be free to define itself as it sees fit. However, if you look at many muslim majority countries, Islam has gone far beyond that, taking the powers of the state to impose this on the people. That is evil.

Destiny
04-26-2005, 12:35 PM
For the 2nd or is the 3rd time...those are not my words they come from the link I posted.... and it is just your opinion that the statement is wrong...others including myself disagree with you. Learn to deal with it, please.Oh, so you disagree with your own post. Okay.


Because it is has been that way for centuries and change is typicaly a slow process...... btw it isn't only Muslim countries that are this way, plenty of non Muslim countries are also this way.That is a fact even if you choose to ignore it. Take many countries in Africa for instance. How many centuries have gays been denied the "right" to marry? Is it okay if we take a few more centuries to grant them that "right"? After all change is typically a slow process ::)


H~K now adding a second person to her ignore list...Destiny now joins BigGreenMnM. Both have been added due to what I find to be extreem prejudiced views and argumentive nature. I've plainly stated what I base my views on. The fact that you disagree with my conclusions does not make me prejudiced, or make you more open-minded than me.

Lurker
04-26-2005, 01:39 PM
HK, sorry--I didn't mean that to come across as harsh, just that it's not a particularly contentious statement.

Destiny--Because I'm too lazy to use the quotes function, I'll address your points in order:

1. I agree, returnees from the West will probably drive the modernization of societies in the Middle East.

2. I DON'T believe that a lot of Muslim leaders in the US tell their followers not to vote, or if they do that it's not in defense of the status quo but rather as a protest.

3. Everything else kind of falls into that hazy area where you argue that Islam is uniquely suited among major religions to be oppressive. I disagree. I don't think that the Koran is any more intolerant a text than the Bible. If you want to find a religion that really tells people they have little choice in life and that they should just accept their lot and not try to better themselves, give Hinduism a whirl. The only reason you think Islam is unique in this regard is because by historical accident we are at a point in history where Islam is the only one of the major world religions which is often closely integrated into the political structure of the countries where it is practiced. If we still lived in ancient Rome and were Christians or pagans, we'd be pretty used to all sorts of horrible behaviour practiced by and against Christians for religious reasons. If you want strict and punitive enforcement of religious mores you can also look at Judaism under the Maccabees.

Put it this way: name a country that adopted Islam, then became LESS civilized. Most of the practices you decry in Islamic nations were part and parcel of those nations before Islam arrived (assuming that the VEIL isn't the problem, but that discrimination against women is). You might argue that the Judeo-Christian societies have become more tolerant and advanced (stipulating that that IS in fact what we've become over the past few centuries) because of their religious attributes. I don't think that's why, because I don't see compelling evidence for it. But it was a single-period study conducted over 1000+ years, and we won't get another chance to do it.

As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:

Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
Turkey

Destiny
04-26-2005, 07:05 PM
Lurker I love the quote thing, it keeps me focused.
Put it this way: name a country that adopted Islam, then became LESS civilized. Afghanistan under the Taliban. That's not meant as an endorsement of communism but an indictment of the Taliban. To a lesser degree, Iran. Yes, the Shah was a cruel dictator, but Ayatollah Khomeni and his ideological decendants are worse. Also, to the extent that governments in other muslim nations have "cracked down" in an effort to appease the more militant elements of Islam, many Muslim countries are becoming less "civilized". Egypt certainly has drifted towards totalitarianism since the days of Sadat. I'd look up some numbers, but I'm tired.


As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:

Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
TurkeyUh, let me think....can I use one of my lifelines? ;D

I'm not that interested in the sex, color, religion, or sexual preference of the leader. The true test of whether a society is "civilized" or not is this. What is the daily life like of its people? Do the people live in fear or do they have hope for the future? Does the average person feel empowered to make things better, or are they resigned that things will only get worse? Using that as a standard, women and men in the U.S. are the most civilized people of those on your list.

Element
04-26-2005, 10:55 PM
Lurker if you really believe in what you are saying I have a good challenge for you.
Its from a former Muslim
Its from faiithfreedom.org (http://www.faithfreedom.org/index.htm)


I receive many mails from angry Muslims who ask me to remove this site. If you disagree with this site and want me to remove it, I invite you to disprove my accusations against Muhammad and Islam. If you can show that what I say is unfounded I promise to remove this site not before confessing that I was wrong and Islam is a true religion.

I am not wealthy. But I have a house and some equity in it. Since January 2005 I promised to give

$50,000 U.S. dollars

I accused Muhammad of being:

a rapist
a pedophile (had sex with a child)
an assassin
a mass murderer
a lecher
a misogynist
a narcissist
a looter
a mentally deranged (was paranoid, heard voices, hallucinated of seeing jinns, Satan and angels, used to think he had sex with his wives when he did not, suffered from depression and had suicidal tendencies).

BigGreenMnM
04-27-2005, 12:37 AM
As a parting shot, name the country that hasn't had a woman as head of state:

Indonesia
Pakistan
United States
Bangladesh
Turkey
yep yep
<<rubs beer gut>>>

gotta admit,this was aaaa purty good one.
<scratch scratch>>>

But fear not,I have bread many females of staggering ages and one day,not sure wichin one itsa gonna be,but one will be your leader,im sure of it.

Lurker
04-27-2005, 06:43 AM
Destiny--those countries were all practicing Islam long before the regimes you speak of came into power. My point is that it's not the RELIGION, it's the people who make the bad government. If the US, dominated by Republicans, decided to ban abortion as an offense to God, wouldn't that be a restriction on freedom thanks to a government hewing more closely to religious beliefs? Is Christianity to blame for Hitler's Germany? He clearly had strong racial/religious beliefs guiding him...My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way. If you got trampled constantly in international affairs, you might be a rejectionist too (like, say, the US deciding the UN is no good because it actually dares to disagree with us sometimes). I agree that there are lots of reactionary governments out there in Muslim countries, I just think it's due to historical accident rather than anything innate to Islam.

As for the president thing--I'm just pointing out that your outside perception of discrimination against women may be myopic. Perhaps they look at the US and think the same thing--"How can a country with 200 years of electing leaders never have had a woman even RUN for president?"

But we'll have to agree to disagree, since we can't reset history to 800 and run endless experiments to determine if Islam really is more dogmatic/punitive/whatever.

Element--that is silly. Muhammed may or may not be all of those things. Jesus and Moses also didn't have the most pure lives, assuming you don't believe in their divinity or divine insipiration. Jesus consorted with prostitutes and disturbed the peace. Moses killed an innocent man in a fit of rage, then wiped out tons of the about-to-be Jews below Mount Sinai for idol-worshipping. I don't believe in any of these religions, but trying to discredit their belief systems by pointing to the flaws in their founders isn't particularly valuable--if you don't buy the story, they're all just deluded egomaniacs or shylocks (see L. Ron Hubbard).

Element
04-27-2005, 10:46 AM
Element--that is silly. Muhammed may or may not be all of those things. Jesus and Moses also

didn't have the most pure lives, assuming you don't believe in their divinity or divine insipiration.

Jesus consorted with prostitutes and disturbed the peace. Moses killed an innocent man in a fit of

rage, then wiped out tons of the about-to-be Jews below Mount Sinai for idol-worshipping. I don't

believe in any of these religions, but trying to discredit their belief systems by pointing to the flaws

in their founders isn't particularly valuable--if you don't buy the story, they're all just deluded

egomaniacs or shylocks (see L. Ron Hubbard).

I agree the Bible recounts of terrible acts of violence committed by Moses and Joshua and most religions have violence associated in their annals. I am not a religious person and do not support any one of them. Even though not all of the religions call for killing the disbelievers like Islam does, they are all the cause of disunity and much bloodshed of humankind.

We can't just tolerate violence in one religion because other religions also have violent teachings.

Hello~Kitty
04-27-2005, 11:22 AM
HK, sorry--I didn't mean that to come across as harsh, just that it's not a particularly contentious statement.
Oh I know hon , I was teasing 8)




1. I agree, returnees from the West will probably drive the modernization of societies in the Middle East.

I also agree with that actually.




3. Everything else kind of falls into that hazy area where you argue that Islam is uniquely suited among major religions to be oppressive. I disagree. I don't think that the Koran is any more intolerant a text than the Bible. If you want to find a religion that really tells people they have little choice in life and that they should just accept their lot and not try to better themselves, give Hinduism a whirl. The only reason you think Islam is unique in this regard is because by historical accident we are at a point in history where Islam is the only one of the major world religions which is often closely integrated into the political structure of the countries where it is practiced. If we still lived in ancient Rome and were Christians or pagans, we'd be pretty used to all sorts of horrible behaviour practiced by and against Christians for religious reasons. If you want strict and punitive enforcement of religious mores you can also look at Judaism under the Maccabees..
:thanx:



those countries were all practicing Islam long before the regimes you speak of came into power. My point is that it's not the RELIGION, it's the people who make the bad government. If the US, dominated by Republicans, decided to ban abortion as an offense to God, wouldn't that be a restriction on freedom thanks to a government hewing more closely to religious beliefs? Is Christianity to blame for Hitler's Germany? He clearly had strong racial/religious beliefs guiding him...My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way.
My point is not that Islamic countries aren't backwards (by our standards), but that it's not ISLAM that makes them that way. If you got trampled constantly in international affairs, you might be a rejectionist too (like, say, the US deciding the UN is no good because it actually dares to disagree with us sometimes).
Well done Lurker, well done ..... :highfive:

Element
04-27-2005, 09:30 PM
HK I'm not personally against Muslims just their religion because it is a doctrine of hate.
The same reason I am against Nazism.
You need to make a distinction between Muslims and Islam.
I believe Muslims are mainly victims of this barbaric cult.