View Full Version : I Need Advice.....
Moneywise
05-22-2005, 06:56 PM
Hey Doc. Here's an idea. Let her know how much you trust her. Demostrate it for her. Before heading off to the work you cherish call her up and let her know you're on your way over. Pick her up. Let her drop you off at work while leaving her with both your car keys and house keys. This would be a wonderful test for the both of you. Let me know when you're going to do it so I can pop lots of corn. ;)
I remember the day Ms. J asked me if she could drive my ride on the way to her place. This was after I spent hours in the club watching her devour every bit of liquor in sight and witnessed her euphoria after smoking some ganja in the DR. If you could have seen my face. The look was priceless. It went a little something like this ---> ::) .
Malibu
05-23-2005, 05:05 AM
You and your friend were observing her? Are you preparing for an opening on the discovery channel? This is absolutely ridiculous. If you knew about women, you wouldn't be so analytical and treat them as though you were camping in the serengeti watching a pride of lions for a nature documentary. Plainly, what you are seeing is what you are getting, no need to whip out the science books Einstein.
You are pussy-whipped. You just can't see the danger signs or you do and are choosing to ignore them. If I met someone who gave me extras the first time they saw me, then I would be very worried that if I were with them, they would do it again with someone else if their insecurities got the better of them. This is not a healthy foundation for a relationship if that is your goal.
I think you should just cut your losses and move on. If you had searched the site and read other similar stories, your answer to your situation would have presented itself to you. Not only that, but people who have been in your shoes are giving you decent advice already and you are pretty much turning a blind eye. Honestly, all this talk about being a psychologist is highly dubious if you cannot make a well-informed decision based on your observations so far. I don't want to be cruel, but 4 pages on this nonsense is wasted webspace. You could have sorted this out in one page.
xdamage
05-23-2005, 07:59 AM
Honestly, all this talk about being a psychologist is highly dubious if you cannot make a well-informed decision based on your observations so far.
When it comes to ourselves, there are aspects of ourselves that are difficult to accept, even for psychologists (perhaps more so for psychologists that are better able to rationalize some aspects of their own behavior). The primary motivators for us humans aren't really all that complicated, but we like to think they are as it allows us to avoid seeing certain not-so-attractive parts of ourselves, the parts that tend to really be the strong motivators in our lives. Doc even said he knows his judgement is clouded, but this is way people are, a part of us can know/want one thing while other parts want something totally contradictory. These contradictory wants and feelings leave most people feeling totally fucked up. And so we put our blinders on, more so when we are "in love" with someone, and try to find a path, an explination, an understanding that unifies all of these different wants into something that makes sense. Doc is still at the point where he is hoping to find a path, and explination, that lets him save his dignitiy, and get the girl, on his terms, even though another part of him knows that the situation is screwed up, and what is motivating him isn't really all that different then what motivates so many other guys to want to own/control/fuck a hot woman (and for all he knows, there are other guys in her life trying to the very same thing right now, and probably will be for many years to come, at least until her looks wither, and all that is left is her personality, which I suspect he doesn't really like at all, or won't if he had to live with her day in day out).
Doc seems like a nice guy, and some part of me hates to see a nice guy like this get involved in a world of shit. But unfortunately you can't save people from themselves. If they insist on swimming in the sewers they are just going to have to learn the hardway that they won't come out smelling or looking squeaky clean.
Jenny
05-23-2005, 08:08 AM
^^^
I don't know. I didn't want to bring it up, but the three psychologists I know tend to scoff at simplistic statements like "I can read people" - especially when connecting it with a background in psychology, if you know what I mean. I'm not going to psychology conventions and chatting up a lot of people on the subject, but it doesn't jibe exactly with my (admittedly limited) experience.
See I think the phrase "on his terms" is very revealing. Why on earth would ANY relationship with ANY person be "on his terms". What about HER terms?
Moneywise
05-23-2005, 08:27 AM
A relationship on HIS or HER terms is bound to fail. If it's not mutually rewarding for both it ain't shit.
Speaking of shit... I was in Wal Mart last night picking up some groceries and spotted a couple that had to weight a combined 600lbs easy. They were both driving those motorized carts that Wal Mart keeps in limited quantities. You know.. the ones with the shopping baskets attached to them which are "supposed" to be for the handicapped individuals. Well these two fattys were cruising around in em like two little lovebirds practically forcing people to move out of their path as they motored around the area.
I walk away all the way over to the other side of the store to search for some trail mix. I'm standing in the snack aisle when around the corner they come. I'm like oh shit... here we go. I'm the only one in the aisle and they're motoring side by fucking side. He whispers to her as they approach to get behind him but she scoffs and keeps on coming.
Don't you know she practically tried to run me over. At the last minute when she realized I wasn't budging she stopped and let him go by before cutting over behind him. It was quite the scene and something I felt the need to share.
Disclaimer: I'm not biased in any way. I've bedded my share of fattys too. One of my best drunken memories was with a plus sized goddess in a hotel room after a night of dancing. }:D
If you didn't already know...
http://www.fatwillie.net/cpg/albums/userpics/10006/hijack_deniro.jpg
xdamage
05-23-2005, 09:01 AM
^^^
I don't know. I didn't want to bring it up, but the three psychologists I know tend to scoff at simplistic statements like "I can read people" - especially when connecting it with a background in psychology, if you know what I mean. I'm not going to psychology conventions and chatting up a lot of people on the subject, but it doesn't jibe exactly with my (admittedly limited) experience.
See I think the phrase "on his terms" is very revealing. Why on earth would ANY relationship with ANY person be "on his terms". What about HER terms?
The phrase "on his terms" was mine, a few words to capture the spirit of a common male behavior, that starts with a man trying to "save" a beautiful girl during the courtship phase (to change her), but typically ends up with him wanting to control her, to have her "on his terms" so to speak.
But don't get me wrong, women also try to control men, and have them on their terms, and are equally as blind when they do so.
But even more important, don't get me wrong about controlling. The want to have the other sex on our terms isn't all bad either.
Here is a good book - The Extended Phenotype: The Long Reach of the Gene, by Richard Dawkins.
If you never wondered why it is that evolution keeps breeding species that require male/females (or symbiotic relationships) to procreate, well you should. Or put another way, why not just species that self procreate? that are always in complete self agreement?
The surprise is that such species die out. The tension between the sexes is (overall) a good thing, even if it is not obviously so in specific cases where people are a little too controlling, or not controlled enough. But nature doesn't care about the individual. It's the long term big picture that survives or dies, and in that picture we see that the tension, and differences between what men and women want out of life and each other is key to what has made life thrive on this planet. People don't need complete agreement in life; it is bad for them. They also do need something to work towards, and the sex drive is a powerful motivator to make ourselves just a little bit better, even if the reason we do it is ultimately to increase our odds of getting some. Control between the sexes, when not taken to extremes, is a good thing, we need some checks and balances or we tend to spin wildly out of control.
In other words, I don't care at all that Doc wants to control this woman (ahem, cough, save her from herself). That's normal. What I care about is his inability to acknowledge his motivations here and get past the foo-foo romantic notions he has swimming around in his head (and in his testicles).
But it is true, if the relationship is not based on some equality, and some equal amounts of control, and giving up of control, it won't work. Doc paints a picture of he is in control, she is not, so basically it's completely unequal and so I would guess doomed to fail. I would suggest he start off his relationship with a woman that has her head mostly on right, even if she isn't such a beauty.
Put together two mentally well people and their natural tendency to want to control each other is put in check and balanced. But put together one "well" person, in control over someone that is mentally fucked up, and you can pretty much bet that the fucked up person will end up getting a raw deal. If he really wanted to help her, then he would do so professionally, from an objective distance. As it is he his having sex with her and has strong emotions tied up in what she does. If she is fucked up, no matter how good his itentions may seem to himself now, he will in the long run abuse that position. Even the devil thinks his motives are just and pure.
xdamage
05-23-2005, 09:10 AM
It was quite the scene and something I felt the need to share.
HAHA - I could just picture that all in my head.
Disclaimer: I'm not biased in any way.
I am biased, not necessarily proud of it, just there it is, take it or leave it. Of course alcohol, in sufficient quantities, has been know to change my level of bias ;)
Jay Zeno
05-23-2005, 12:46 PM
^^^
I don't know. I didn't want to bring it up, but the three psychologists I know tend to scoff at simplistic statements like "I can read people" - especially when connecting it with a background in psychology, if you know what I mean. I'm not going to psychology conventions and chatting up a lot of people on the subject, but it doesn't jibe exactly with my (admittedly limited) experience. Yeah, me, too. But honestly, most of the people I know of in the psychology field tended to be fairly socially impaired, too. I think the discipline draws in its share of weird ones.
mr_punk
05-23-2005, 01:44 PM
Your colleague's observations and advice were wise. Are you following any of it, or largely ignoring? oh, he's going to ignore it. they always do. you can't tell a PL that he's a PL. he always thinks to himself, "but she thinks that i'm different than the other customers" or "she treats me special", etc.
You are pussy-whipped. You just can't see the danger signs or you do and are choosing to ignore them. like most PLs, it's a case of the latter. it's like watching the three stooges. curly knows moe is going to poke him in the eyes or clobber him with a tire iron. if curly does something stupid like..say...light a match while the trio is drenched in gasoline inside a gunpowder factory. yet, curly lights the match anyway. PLs are the same way. they can't help themselves. so, sit back and laugh while roasting marshmallows over their burning corpses. at least, that's what i would do.}:D
Alright, so here are my motives. On many levels I am a superficial person, not shallow....on the contrary, I am deep, and I genuinely care about people, perhaps this is a fault....but I realize that as long as I can get up in the morning, look at myself in the mirror and feel at peace with myself, I’m doing something right. If she is attempting to manipulate me or whatever, I realize that karma does have a way of catching up with people....and I believe that the risk is worth taking. The way someone treats us doesn’t reflect who we are as people as much as it reflects them. Many people become jaded, but I believe that genuine acts of kindness are appreciated by all, and this is how I approach her, I’ve never been anything but genuine.
I’m superficial on the level that I care about looks, I care about how I dress, smell, look, and I do go for beautiful women....
Its interesting though, its not only that she’s beautiful, its deeper. You can see someone who you think is beautiful and just walk on by, but with her it was just electric, a very chemical response. When it comes to the “type” I go for, she’s really not that different from what I usually go for, at least physically....and every girl I’ve dated has been in the “arts” somehow....most have been professional dancers, dance instructors, backup dancers, in music videos....
On an emotional level I think I find a certain solace in her company because she reminds me of my teen years. Thats why I find myself caring about her, wanting something better for her. I grew up in a pretty bad area of NYC, the south Bronx, for those of you on the west coast think of South Central LA or Compton. I saw so many people waste their lives, so many of the girls I knew then ended up throwing their lives away, pregnancy, drugs, prostitution, gangs. Most of the guys who were my friends then never made it, many of my then acquaintances didn’t make it past age 25. I wasn’t different, just had the support of my family, people in the community, a few teachers who actually cared. I grew up around gangs...Latin Kings, and when I wanted to join, I remember one of the gang leaders telling me no, that I actually have a chance for a future, not to ruin it....and he hooked me up, I made pretty good money in high school doing homework for the gang members! But she takes me back to those times, and in a way I feel that if I save her, I can some how balance things out, so many of those girls never had a chance, but I want her to have that chance.
On a selfish note, I want her because of how she looks, and because I see the potential she has. I would like a normal relationship with her. In the best case scenario I see it ending up in marriage, but thats the best case scenario for any relationship. In the worst case scenario I see her trying to manipulate me and it doesn’t go anywhere. Realistically, I don’t I see something in between the 2 extremes, a few dates maybe. I don’t care about her dancing, my view of her isn’t shaped by her profession. I would support her either way, but any relationship is about trust, I would have no choice but to trust her. But if things were to get really serious I’d ask her to move in with me, she wouldn’t really have to work. This is looking unrealistically into the future though.
I’m following my colleague’s advice, its what I’d tell someone in my situation as well for the most part.
I’m not trying to fix her, she can only fix herself if she wants to. All anyone can do for anyone else is be there for them, respect them, have realistic expectations, and help them trust themselves to make the best decisions they can. I can help her look at her life, at her ideals vs her reality and help her get closer to those ideals, but the choices and decisions have to be her own. What I want is to give her that chance though, let her see there is more out there, and treat her like the princess she deserves to be.
My feelings for her stem from the chemistry we have, from our conversations, from shared interests(food, some music, tv shows, dancing) to just being able to relate to her situation.
I don’t want to control her, the only beating that makes a person stick around is the beating of their heart.
*(a) Accept that she's genuine in her feeling for you and get her to move into your apartment. At the same time get her to give up dancing and find another line of work. *
I can’t put limitations on her like that, ultimatums don’t work. She has to come to such conclusions herself. I can show her there is more for out there, build her self esteem, but the rest is up to her. She deserves to be treated with respect as an individual, not as a child, that would just be treating her like a commodity, like everyone else in the sc.
*(b) Continue to see her in the SC. In that case I think I agree with Xdamage: "I'd wager that doc is in for a learning experience the likes of which he never got in school." You're playing with fire. You might be a nice guy - other people in this world ain't.*
I am playing with fire, I know. But each time I go there it becomes a bit easier to read, besides, in all honesty this forum has helped me immensely.
*(c) Accept that you're in over your head and withdraw gracefully. *
This is what I plan on doing after a little while longer. I’m giving it this week, and if things don’t progress or I sense some kind of indiscrepencies between her words and actions, I’m walking away. I’m trying to meet people elsewhere simply to have someone there to take my mind off of her if I walk away because I’m really not sure whether I’ll be able to stay away for long.
*Look, when we start discussions on Weltanschauung, I can't help but thinking you are being a bit over anaytical. Not only that, but you are trying to analyse a world where you have little or no experience. Strip clubs are fantasy land - and I think you are having a bit of trouble telling where fantasy ends and reality begins. *
You’re absolutely right. Strip clubs do offer a fantasy, thats clear. The problem is when someone acts as if its real, and you really can’t distinguish between reality and fantasy because the line is so thin and so blurred. I’m able to read the other girls there pretty well, they’re full of it, its easy to tell they’ll say anything to make money. But with her its different because there is a sense of sincerity, yet obvious signs that something is off with her. I know she’s really stressed at work though, she doesn’t like it but needs the money.
I know she’s different when not at work, and thats the side of her I’m trying to get to know.
I don’t think that many are normal girls though, at least not here, I have yet to meet a stripper who isn’t somehow messed up.
I’m not being so analytical because she’s a woman, but because of the situation. I see the danger signs, I’m not ignoring them, I’m trying to see how far things will go before there is a clear sign to walk away. Currently the risk is minimal and worth it.
Every person and every situation is different. When you want something in life, you can’t just give up because the situation is far fro ideal. A part of learning is to tackle new experiences and go through with them. I think that attempting to get to the truth is a much more well informed decision than to merely run away. I think the insight I can get from this will be very helpful.
I don’t have blinders on, I know the odds are stacked against me, and I don’t expect a positive outcome. I would like it, but I see the reality. A very good lesson can come of this if nothing else...
Phil-W
05-23-2005, 03:07 PM
I know she’s different when not at work, and thats the side of her I’m trying to get to know. I don’t think that many are normal girls though, at least not here, I have yet to meet a stripper who isn’t somehow messed up.
Strange - I know quite a few who are perfectly normal away from work. In fact, I would have to say that most dancers I know are normal individuals away from work. They work as dancers for a variety of motives. These include:
(a) The freedom of working their own hours.
(b) Putting themselves through studies.
(c) Saving to travel.
(d) The good rewards that can be earned from dancing.
They are working for perfectly rational reasons and are perfectly well adjusted individuals away from work. While at work they often behave very differently, but that pattern of behaviour is discarded as soon as they are away from work and in company they trust.
I can find a number of messed up dancers if I look hard. For example there is one who is so interested in picking up and f*cking 18 or 19 year old guys from where she works, that she lets her 6 & 8 year old kids go hungry and dirty. Somehow, I've managed to avoid getting involved in sorting out her problems.
I'd have to say however, from my experience, that f*cked up strippers are the exception rather than the rule.
I've been friendly with several dancers for a number of years. Once or twice a week I'll give one of them a lift home. Sometimes, there'll be another dancer working on the shift who lives on the way to where my dancer friend lives. My friend will then ask if she can be given a lift home as well - which is fine with me. As well as my friends I'll estimate I've had 20 - 30 other dancers in my car over the years - a fair sample, and none of them f*cked up.
Once in the car the fantasy stops and we're back in the real world - including the dancer I'm giving a lift to as a favour. Cos I've gotten known to quite a number of these dancers, they'll talk freely to me about work and their real lives. Guess what - no dramas. We might talk about where they're going on holiday, how earnings on that shift were sh*t or great, how expensive the rent is on their flat, etc. Boringly normal in fact.
Doc, if you haven't met a "stripper who isn't somehow messed up", you haven't been lookng very hard.
Phil.
xdamage
05-23-2005, 04:02 PM
oh, he's going to ignore it. they always do. you can't tell a PL that he's a PL. he always thinks to himself, "but she thinks that i'm different than the other customers" or "she treats me special", etc.
Yea, no shit man. That's like their fucking mantra. I am different, I am special, she feels different about me...
So it's pointless, they have to learn the hardway, if they learn at all.
I’m not socially impaired.....I simply don’t have experience with strippers....
*(a) The freedom of working their own hours.
(b) Putting themselves through studies.
(c) Saving to travel.
(d) The good rewards that can be earned from dancing.*
This may be so in the UK, but even there you have exploitation with the East European girls. Here in the US, many strippers will use those reasons when saying why they dance, but I think they use those reasons simply to save face. Of course there are exceptions, but with many here, there is a great sense of instability in their lives, lack of education, caught up with the wrong crowd, lack of skills, many have problems working while sober. The money is good, but the realities of the occupation eventually catch up with them, being treated as a commodity day in and day out leaves its mark on a person’s mentality, associating their time with money, viewing relations with men as transactions, creating false personas, manipulation, all affect their ability to interact with people sooner or later. Simply put, the sex industry in general is not healthy.
*I'll estimate I've had 20 - 30 other dancers in my car over the years - a fair sample, and none of them f*cked up. *
Then you’ve been lucky, and the demographics where you are at aren’t too bad.
*Once in the car the fantasy stops and we're back in the real world - including the dancer I'm giving a lift to as a favour. Cos I've gotten known to quite a number of these dancers, they'll talk freely to me about work and their real lives. Guess what - no dramas. We might talk about where they're going on holiday, how earnings on that shift were sh*t or great, how expensive the rent is on their flat, etc. Boringly normal in fact. *
Of course, they’re people just like anyone else. I think that the problem I’m seeing is that there is a time when the fantasy turns into a manipulation....and on this site, fantasy seems to be used as a euphemism for manipulation.
*Doc, if you haven't met a "stripper who isn't somehow messed up", you haven't been lookng very hard.*
I don’t frequent strip clubs, just the one on my way between work and home, I’ve never had an interest, nor do I now really......my interest is just this specific stripper.
Until now, my interest in the sc has never been anything but to just observe the social interaction, listen to the music, unwind on my way home.....never expected to meet her....
But I have read statistics and case studies on strippers in the US....thats why I think most are messed up. There are some really decent ones at the club though, there are exceptions....
Jenny
05-23-2005, 06:56 PM
This may be so in the UK, but even there you have exploitation with the East European girls. Here in the US, many strippers will use those reasons when saying why they dance, but I think they use those reasons simply to save face. Of course there are exceptions, but with many here, there is a great sense of instability in their lives, lack of education, caught up with the wrong crowd, lack of skills, many have problems working while sober.
Well. Gosh. Thanks for letting us know.
Dude. You have, maybe, NOTICED that there are quite a lot of dancers frequenting these boards, right? And that maybe - just maybe - we're in a better position to tell you about what motivates us than you are to tell us? Bottom line - the dancer in question, even if she didn't seem to borderline retarded and socially inept (because seriously, I've dated customers. Well, a customer. You do not give the ones you like discount lap dances. That is fucked up and kind of gross - and this is coming from someone who also (sometimes) enjoys giving lapdances. And I am fairly socially inept and I STILL know better than that) is probably far too young for you. It is WEIRD to sleep with a guy and then charge him to touch you in a club. I know that strip clubs are contextualized, but it is DIFFERENT than a waitress giving you a free drink.
Phil-W
05-23-2005, 07:31 PM
Of course, they’re people just like anyone else. I think that the problem I’m seeing is that there is a time when the fantasy turns into a manipulation....and on this site, fantasy seems to be used as a euphemism for manipulation.
Welcome to the real world.
Strippers dance to earn an income. They get that income from tips and fees from private dances. They maximise that income by providing a fantasy, or by manipulating customers, (delete as applicable).
To do this, they adopt a persona at work - and this persona generally conforms to the steroetype that most customers have of dancers: it's a way of maximising earnings. Outside the club most dancers revert to their normal selves, which can be very different from the persona they project inside the club.
I repeat - strippers dance to earn an income, and they do what it takes to earn that income. Always remember that and you'll have far less trouble understanding what goes on inside a venue.
You have, maybe, NOTICED that there are quite a lot of dancers frequenting these boards, right? And that maybe - just maybe - we're in a better position to tell you about what motivates us than you are to tell us?
And very honest they are too - very little attempt to decieve about motivations on this board. From my experience most dancers post honest and accurate observations - that's the reality of what they do, not the fantasy world inside a strip club. They are also on the whole bright, balanced individuals that view their profession for what it is - a way of earning a living.
"Strippers that are somehow messed up?" Seem to be an awful lot of intelligent, observant dancers on this board. Granted, they might not be typical of dancers as a whole, but I suspect they are still more typical than the "statistics and case studies on strippers in the US" that you have read - many of which were written by individuals with an axe to grind, and which I would not regard as unbiased evidence.
Phil.
xdamage
05-23-2005, 07:53 PM
Welcome to the real world.
Strippers dance to earn an income. They get that income from tips and fees from private dances. They maximise that income by providing a fantasy, or by manipulating customers, (delete as applicable).
"Strippers that are somehow messed up?"
None of what I am about to type is directed at you Phil; just a couple follow up points.
It takes two to tango. Doc, you have no control over what the dancers do, only what you do. If the fantasy crosses the line into manipulation, it's your choice to participate, your choice to play/add-to the manipulation. The fix is not to try and change the dancers, but to change yourself. If you feel manipulated, easy out man, don't go. Problem solved.
As for being messed up, probably some are. So are many of us customers. You seem to have some issues of your own; focus on those because you do have the power to change those, not others.
As for what goes through the dancers heads. Putting aside that there are so many dancers, each different, and so many variances, as customers and men we are not in the best position to describe what it's like to be a dancer. It's best to just let it be and leave it to the dancers to describe their motivations, how they feel about their work, etc. Even if the descriptions are colored/filtered, we/you/I/us customers also filter/color our reasons for being customers. Best we can do is focus energy on trying to better understand ourselves - it's up to the dancers to choose to (or not choose to) do the same with their lives and chosen profession.
Let go man. The world will carry on fine without having to control, and without having to be on top of what everyone else is doing. Focus on yourself and your own issues in this messed up stripper/customer relationship that you willingly choose to take part in.
p.s. this will fall on deaf ears, no doubt. but to me it's fucking retarded to go on and on about the problems strippers have when you clearly candy coat your own perception of yourself. The whole "my motivations" post was filled with so much sugar I had to get an insulin shot to keep from going into a coma. While you likely are a nice guy who means well, join the rest of the world in thinking the same thing about themselves. Did you know that even Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden think they are fundamentally nice guys with good motives? Everyone does this. Take responsibility for you part in this f-ed up relationship with this girl, and don't bother with trying to deal with it by painting broad sweeping generalizations about all strippers. Even if the generalizations are true, it doesn't change the fact that you have a choice NOT TO GO TO THE STRIP CLUB! Make that choice if the situation has crossed the line from entertainment into the your personal life.
* Bottom line - the dancer in question, even if she didn't seem to borderline retarded and socially inept (because seriously, I've dated customers. Well, a customer. You do not give the ones you like discount lap dances. That is fucked up and kind of gross - and this is coming from someone who also (sometimes) enjoys giving lapdances. And I am fairly socially inept and I STILL know better than that) is probably far too young for you. It is WEIRD to sleep with a guy and then charge him to touch you in a club. I know that strip clubs are contextualized, but it is DIFFERENT than a waitress giving you a free drink.*
I’ve dated younger, I’m 29, she’s 21...thats not a big deal. I’ve never dated anyone over 24.
Well, I know what she’s doing is somewhat messed up, thats what makes it so confusing. I’m not saying I approve of her behavior...but I don’t think it is so out of place given the context...
*Strippers dance to earn an income. They get that income from tips and fees from private dances. They maximise that income by providing a fantasy, or by manipulating customers, (delete as applicable). *
Yes, a stripper’s job is to strip, to offer customers dances for a fee, to make them feel at ease in the club, to offer entertainment. Their job is NOT to lie to men to get them to spend more money, nor is it to manipulate men in order to keep them coming back. To lure men with the pretext of possible encounters outside the club, sex, is solicitation. Seeing men outside the club and being expected to be paid or to receive gifts is solicitation as well. This is not a part of the “fantasy”, but a scam.... The fantasy is to be in a club setting surrounded by and entertained by scantily clad or nude women.
*"Strippers that are somehow messed up?" Seem to be an awful lot of intelligent, observant dancers on this board. Granted, they might not be typical of dancers as a whole, but I suspect they are still more typical than the "statistics and case studies on strippers in the US" that you have read - many of which were written by individuals with an axe to grind, and which I would not regard as unbiased evidence.*
I don’t really agree about what you said about the strippers on this board....there are many issues evident from reading their posts.... But the studies I’m discussing are by sociologists, anthropologists, psychologists.....I’m not discussing disgruntled customers, or men who have issues with women. I mean it seriously, its not a healthy industry in general......and of course its not only the dancers, the patrons are a large part of the problem as well....
Moneywise
05-23-2005, 10:34 PM
There's no saving him folks. He has drifted way too far off of the coastline. The rope will only reach so far. Your words are falling on deaf ears. He's too far off coast to hear them. He's going to have to battle this current on his own. Best of luck to you skipper. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/titanic.gif
evan_essence
05-24-2005, 02:23 AM
Well, I know what she’s doing is somewhat messed up, thats what makes it so confusing. I’m not saying I approve of her behavior...but I don’t think it is so out of place given the context...Okay, I'm going to modify my original perception a bit, buck the pack mentality here, put on my pseudo-NFL cheerleader's outfit and tell you good luck. To reach that perception, it's good enough for me that you believe you are informed of the risk and want to take a shot.
Please give some serious consideration to this suggestion. I think you need to get your relationship with her out of the club. See her totally or at least primarily outside the club in ordinary contexts. Don't go there unless it's to briefly drop her off or pick her up from work. Don't spend money on her other than what you normally would in any standard relationship (dinner, movies, modest gifts that are appropriate for the stage of your relationship). Stay as modest with your makeout sessions as is your normal opportunity/procedure with non-strippers at this very early stage of a relationship. Date. Divorce the club environment from this process.
You couldn't successfully develop a healthy romantic relationship with a woman on your patient's couch. If a patient became romantically interested in your total person rather than your job role, for her pursuit to have a fighting chance at a normal relationship outside the office, she'd have to immediately stop seeing you as a counselor. If you're an ethical professional, you'd insist upon it. Similarly, it's unwise to cultivate a romantic relationship with an exotic dancer solely, primarily, or even partly, at her workplace. If she had a healthy viewpoint, she'd insist upon a normal courtship, but she probably doesn't have, yet you do, so you should take the lead on that.
-Ev
Malibu
05-24-2005, 03:15 AM
There's no saving him folks. He has drifted way too far off of the coastline. The rope will only reach so far. Your words are falling on deaf ears. He's too far off coast to hear them. He's going to have to battle this current on his own. Best of luck to you skipper. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/titanic.gif
LMFAO! I believe that this is the case here.
I don't want to be rude, because as xdamage said you seem a very nice (and even naive) guy and my responses are not aimed to hurt your feelings. I take it back about saying I was dubious about your occupation, because I know that these things can and will not always guide your emotions. I just don't belive in sugar coating my opinion.
DrJM, I think you are a hopeless romantic. I just don't think that hopeless romance rarely swings it in an SC. I'm not saying it never happens, but in your situation, the chance seems very slim. The instability from the very beginning just looks fishy. Please think about it.
If you do get it together, be prepared for a tumultuous ride and don't forget your lifejacket.
yoda57us
05-24-2005, 05:56 AM
I’m not socially impaired.....I simply don’t have experience with strippers....
Well then why are you debating the experiences of those of us who do?
The VAST majority of dancers I've met (and we are talking hundreds here) are normal women who manage to survive the potential pitfalls, earn their money, reach their goals and get out of dancing, in many cases, richer for the experience. Now, maybe you are just naturaly attracted to drama queens, in which case those are the dancers you are going to wind up with, since they can smell-out a newbie and latch on with ferocious vigor. This doesn't make them messed up, it's just another aproach to getting your money.
BTW, Sporty is right, if you bopped this chick, you really should have mentioned it in the begining. Why didn't you?
xdamage
05-24-2005, 07:17 AM
I take it back about saying I was dubious about your occupation, because I know that these things can and will not always guide your emotions. I just don't belive in sugar coating my opinion.
DrJM, I think you are a hopeless romantic. I just don't think that hopeless romance rarely swings it in an SC. I'm not saying it never happens, but in your situation, the chance seems very slim.
Doc if there is any hope for you man, please read this. Malibu has put it in an extremely sane, stable, clear, down to earth way. And about as kind a way as you're likely to get on these boards. And she is a dancer giving it to you straight man.
If completely agree, even when it comes to sex and relationships even the most sane of us can end up swimming in our emotions.
There is nothing wrong romance. Like music, or art, we don't absolutely need it but life sure is a lot sweeter with it, under the right circumstances. But don't be a hopeless romantic chasing after women you can't have or that don't share the same feelings, life is not made any sweeter for it, and you just end up being a loser in the end.
But back to what Malibu wrote, I couldn't agree more, the SC is not the place to find the love of your life!!! It may happen, but it is exceedingly rare. What is not rare is guys who come in and fall in love with a stripper, and that can't accept that the stripper does not share the same feelings.
Katrine
05-24-2005, 07:40 AM
Most boring thread EVER!!!
This is the reason why all of the shrinks I ever went to only wanted to hear me ramble on about my sex life...........
Moneywise
05-24-2005, 08:24 AM
Most boring thread EVER!!!
I tried to liven it up with my Wal Mart experience from this past weekend but the level of bore is already at an unfathomable level.
GenWar
05-24-2005, 04:26 PM
Most boring thread EVER!!!
I disagree. I think what was done to the perfectably acceptable "some like it bald" thread over in Dancer's Discussion is truly the worst.
And yet, I am still reading it. I need a life.
-gen
rockie
05-24-2005, 04:35 PM
DrJM: You can't help yourself, don't even try to help this women. Water seeks it's own level and if your in this problematic relationship - fix on your own personal issues. I pity the fool who is you patient!
Katrine
05-24-2005, 04:50 PM
Once again, with gusto!!!
http://www.ritilan.com/archives/images/2005/01/06/010604-mr-t.png
Jay Zeno
05-24-2005, 05:06 PM
Most boring thread EVER!!! Damnit! Was I supposed to read it?
*Well then why are you debating the experiences of those of us who do?*
I’m not, I really am assessing the situation and taking the advice from the forum, and stuff I found in other posts to heart.
*BTW, Sporty is right, if you bopped this chick, you really should have mentioned it in the begining. Why didn't you?*
I mentioned “extras”....I just thought it was disrespectful to state at that point....
*You can't help yourself, don't even try to help this women. Water seeks it's own level and if your in this problematic relationship - fix on your own personal issues. I pity the fool who is you patient!*
I’m quite good at my job, have helped a lot of people....but that has nothing to do with this. No one is perfect, and everyone has problems....I didn’t post here to be anyone’s entertainment, I posted seriously about a serious situation.
Anyways, I have a strategy now at least, and I’ll get to the bottom of things tonight considering she’s at work.....thanks to this forum and my own observations I know the key cues to look for. So I’ll post the results tomorrow.
Well, I was ready to have the situation resolved last night, but the one night I actually wanted to see her, she wasn't there!!!!
But the night was nonetheless productive....somewhat. One of the girls I sometimes chat with came over, sat me down, and said she wanted to talk with me about the situation. She sometimes takes the girl I like home from work, and they're friends. So she pretty much told me that the girl does have a boyfriend, but that its not a great relationship, she's just with him because he's really the only person she knows in the city, needs a place to live, depends on him for most of her transportation needs, and so he tries to control her, keep her under his thumb..... She looked at me, and told me she can tell I'm in love with her....told me that from the time she knows me, that I'm a great guy, that she hasn't really seen a guy genuinely as nice and genuine as me in the club before.....and that she'll try to help me, that she'll talk with her. So far, she doesn't really know how she feels about me.....just that she thinks I'm attractive, sincere, and feels really comfortable around me.
But she did tell me to be careful, that the girl does have a messed up life, but that dancers are people just like anyone else, have feelings, want to be loved and respected.... I told her I'm scared because of all the horror stories I have heard about dancers....and she said that sure, it happens, but that it can happen with a woman you meet anywhere....which is true...
I asked her about the "fantasy" thing, and the "customer" label....and her answer was really interesting, she said that the fantasy part is just the entertainment factor....the eye candy, that an sc is supposed to feel kind of like you're touring a harem.......
As far as being a customer vs something else, she said that once you enter the sc, you are a customer, that there's no way around this...but that its an environment like anywhere, because you're dealing with people like anywhere else....BUT that the women are there to work, to make money, and that its a guaranteed turn off if you just show up to gawk at them, or don't spend any money on them.....said it just makes a man look cheap, and so what makes a man think that he can get with a dancer just because he shows up and doesn't even pay them for doing their job.
Said that the dancers are weary of men because when most want otc contact its usually for sex, they think the dancers are escorts or prostitutes....that dancers are just people, women, and that they need some time to get to know you so that they see your intentions.
Her advice was to go to the club to see the object of my affection, but to not spend a lot of money on her....that if I spend a lot it will make her feel like I'm trying to buy her, but that there is chemistry there, so to work with it. To bring her a card, send flowers.....come by once or twice a week and buy her a drink and if I buy a dance, to not be grabby....but to respect her body, and try to have little contact....to create a friendly, sensual vibe rather than a sexual one. To never buy more than 2 dances if I choose to do so. Said I should tip though because I am seeing her at her work......but that the money shouldn't be more than the cost of a casual date....so that the relationship is not defined simply by money...
That if a dancer is interested in a guy, it won't be about the money, it will be about enjoying the guys company.....and when a guy visits a dancer for a while, and just focuses on getting to know her, rather than just showering her with money, trying to buy her, being pushy, if she feels the same for you, you'll definitely know....and if it doesn't happen, you don't go broke because of it and you still have your dignity.
Also said that this phase shouldn't last too long though, that up to 5 such visits are a reasonable number, anything more makes you look like a PL, and anything less than 4 like you just want an escort....
Told me that so far, what works in my favor is that I'm a club customer....and said that this pretty much keeps the real manipulators away from me since I don't really spend money on the girls....that everyone was actually surprised when I got any dances at all.
Its also important to not drink too much alcohol in the club....this isn't a problem for me though since I don't really drink alcoholic drinks there too much anyways.
Said that its a good sign when the girl works the room and then just spends time with me after making her money, and doesn't really try to get any from me....this kind of makes sense though because sometimes the one I like would say "I'm sorry I kept you waiting, I have to work though" or "I'll come to you after I finish making money"
Said she'll do her best to play matchmaker though.....
Then we talked about the gym....weight training.....food, just friendly conversation, and another girl joined us and actually paid me $20 to give her a lapdance! It was in a fun way....but I can't believe that I have this kind of rapport in the club now....
The girl I was talking to spent about 4 hours with me, and turned down offers for dances to stay and talk with me.....and she's one of the most popular girls at the club....I gave her a $200 tip for her time....she didn't even ask me for money, and was kind of surprised when I gave it to her......but I felt it was the right thing to do since she could have made more had she been working the room.
What do you guys think of this advice??? I was really surprised to have this experience!!!!
tampafldancer
05-30-2005, 02:03 AM
DR. JM, Do you really want the baggage of a present boyfriend in the picture? If she likes you as much as you like her, she will loose the guy. Just let her know how serious you are!
Dont get played......anymore.. be careful! You seem like a nice guy, dont waste your heart on something that cant be.
tampafldancer
05-30-2005, 02:03 AM
DR. JM, Do you really want the baggage of a present boyfriend in the picture? If she likes you as much as you like her, she will loose the guy. Just let her know how serious you are!
Dont get played......anymore.. be careful! You seem like a nice guy, dont waste your heart on something that cant be.
Phil-W
05-30-2005, 05:09 AM
Well, I was ready to have the situation resolved last night, but the one night I actually wanted to see her, she wasn't there....One of the girls I sometimes chat with came over, sat me down, and said she wanted to talk with me about the situation...So she pretty much told me that the girl does have a boyfriend, but that its not a great relationship, she's just with him because he's really the only person she knows in the city, needs a place to live, depends on him for most of her transportation needs, and so he tries to control her, keep her under his thumb.....
Err, Doc? This is a dancer working in a club with a load of other dancers. It's not exactly unknown for dancers to share a flat - an option that has been open to the love of your life ever since she's been working at the club. Ditto, the "only person she knows scenario". She's in a club full of girls with shared experiences, problems, etc., and she hasn't formed a friendship with any of them???
I asked her about the "fantasy" thing, and the "customer" label....and her answer was really interesting, she said that the fantasy part is just the entertainment factor....the eye candy, that an sc is supposed to feel kind of like you're touring a harem.......As far as being a customer vs something else, she said that once you enter the sc, you are a customer, that there's no way around this....
Said that the dancers are weary of men because when most want otc contact its usually for sex, they think the dancers are escorts or prostitutes....that dancers are just people, women, and that they need some time to get to know you so that they see your intentions.....
This should not have come as an earth shaking revelation - just read this thread from the beginning - it's the advice you've been given by many of the people posting on this thread.
Her advice was to go to the club to see the object of my affection, but to not spend a lot of money on her....That if a dancer is interested in a guy, it won't be about the money, it will be about enjoying the guys company.....and when a guy visits a dancer for a while, and just focuses on getting to know her, rather than just showering her with money, trying to buy her, being pushy, if she feels the same for you, you'll definitely know....and if it doesn't happen, you don't go broke because of it and you still have your dignity....
Doc, the number of dancers who like their bf's, (or potential bf's), in the clubs while they work is infinitesimally small. Seeing your other half galivanting about naked with other guys is not relationship enhancing. Seems to me that if she's not realised by now you want a serious relationship OTC, and started behaving accordingly by moving things OTC, the chances are steadily diminishing.
The girl I was talking to spent about 4 hours with me, and turned down offers for dances to stay and talk with me.....and she's one of the most popular girls at the club....I gave her a $200 tip for her time....she didn't even ask me for money, and was kind of surprised when I gave it to her......but I felt it was the right thing to do since she could have made more had she been working the room.
You're learning Doc!!!!! And yes, it was the right thing to do.
General comment.
As this second dancer confirmed to you, SC's are fantasy land. What she seems to have done, literally from the goodness of her heart, (as she could not have known you were going to tip her $200), is sit down and tell you it like it is. For the 4 hours she talked to you, you were in a little bubble of reality in fantasy land.
Now, there are some seriously nice, warm-hearted dancers out there, and I think you've just met one of them. She gave up a good chunk of her own time, (and money), to try and help out a fellow dancer - and probably yourself as well. I think she's sensed what a lot of people who've posted in this thread have sensed - that you've got your rose tinted glasses on, and that you are not seeing the world the way it is.
What do you guys think of this advice??? I was really surprised to have this experience!!!!
I rest my case. Most of what she told you and which "surprised" you, has already been pointed out to you in this thread. You just ain't taking it in.
Phil.
Moneywise
05-30-2005, 06:32 AM
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/slapen.gif (http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/slapen.gif)
Are you still buying LDs from her? Is the impulse still there to do so? If she's so caught up with the necessity to live with her current BF out of desperation then you have the perfect opportunity to don your protective white suit of armor and rescue the damsel in distress. What's stopping you? Go ahead and move her in, give her a key to the house, and also that second key to your ride. Let her start taking you to work and then report back to us after you've given this a few weeks...
Hopefully this makes it through the pile of horse dung and enters your earlobes.
A good number of people on this board have been through your experience on too many occasions. Hell, two years ago I was right here asking the same sorts of questions. Lots can happen in two years. Lots... I've taken the good with the bad and came out shining brighter than that twinkle in your eyes in the presence of said twinker.
The people that have spoken in this thread haven't just done so because they enjoy shortening the time between now and the day CTS sets in. You might want to actually go back and review your own thread. It'll surely serve to come out a lot lighter on your wallet. We won't require any money donation for our time. You won't feel obligated to donate us anything either. All we ask is for an ear. I meant what I said when I wished you the best. You're in for a good long ride. http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/billard.gif
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/laiesken.gif http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/laiesken.gif http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/laiesken.gif
(http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/slapen.gif)
xdamage
05-30-2005, 06:42 AM
This just keeps getting better and better. Time for a fresh bag of popcorn and another round of drinks.
Moneywise
05-30-2005, 06:58 AM
I'll do you one better.
As requested: http://www.n101.com/Static/HN/Food_Guide/Popcorn.jpg http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/Saeufer.gif
This thread also deserves the macarena machine.
http://www.my-smileys.de/smileys2/10_2.gif
Richard_Head
05-30-2005, 08:53 AM
Can someone pass me some of that popcorn?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40502000/jpg/_40502833_aerial300300_pa.jpg
xdamage
05-30-2005, 02:32 PM
Let's not discourage him anymore. This is just too good. I mean why do things half way?
Doc I've got my fingers crossed for you man. I hope you "get" this girl. She sounds like nothing but pure excitement. Please be sure to fill us all in on how the relationship progresses. I know a gentlemen won't give us details on the different positions you engage in while fucking her :( Damn, those would have been good stories. But the real fun begins soon after. After you have had your fill of fucking her and you get to live with the princessess and her wonderful personality. I agree with Moneywise - move her in NOW !!!!
The parts I am really interested in are the parts where it starts eating at you that she is a dancer, starts eating at you that while you've been fucking around with her she has a BF (could the same happen to you while she is at work???), or the parts where you try to discourage her from dancing, oh not to control her no (Not like her current BF - why all he does is control her), no for her own good, for her happiness. This will be the grounds for some awesome stories as you fill us in on how it is that you try to help princess lose all those traits and behaviors that just aren't good for her, but that (ironically!) are the very traits and behaviors that lead you to fall in love with her. Why that are probably leading so many other guys to feel the very same way about her?
Wait, what am I talking about? It just couldn't be that there thousands of other guys that want to bang your flakey princesses. That will tell her anything she wants to hear to get a crack at her pants. Nope. Or maybe... maybe you'll just have to do what's best, for her of course, not out of control, and get her to stop dancing erotically, lest some other guy tries to do what your doing now with her and her BF (tries to weasel his dick in there and get some of princesses beautiful bod).
Oh this is going to be a great show. Go get her doc.
Well, I finally had the chance to talk with her....She called me about a day after her friend spoke with her about me. I was really surprised to hear from her for the most part, but she talked about normal stuff, her new day job...life, just regular conversation....we arranged for a date otc.
It was quite different from interaction inside the club.....It was extremely refreshing to see her in a non-hyper-sexual situation, to see her in casual clothes, and under better light. We just had dinner and drinks.... we both wanted something very casual....She definitely has a lot of baggage, which I expected.....broken family, abusive relationships, step father she hates, grew up in a pretty racist environment....just had some really bad conditioning. Told me she never expected to meet someone like me in a sc. Never had anyone be so romantic or gentle, never had anyone tell her the things I tell her....she almost cried, was quite nervous, fidgety, sweaty palms, blushed....towards the end of the night she was just glowing.....
But I saw through it. I know she’s not happy with her life, is quite close with her mother, and wants more than what she has....I think she sees me as an escape from this life, from her past. She is using me, not necessarily for money, but she sees potential, a crutch of sorts. She’s not a very good liar, and it was quite easy to read her....There is chemistry there, a mutual attraction, and we see qualities which complement us....she lifts me up, and I keep her grounded, and its like I’m a good thing that came along so she figures why not. She told me some of her dreams, and in a way sees me as a way to get there......because I am in a position to help her...give her the support she needs...and no, I don’t mean financial.... But its like in her mind, we both have something to offer each other, so its almost like exchanging one thing for another, it’s the whole process of commodification that takes root in strippers’ minds.
But it was unbelievable that I could make this gorgeous woman act like a teenager on a date! And it was so non-sexual....so normal! We ended the night with a very sweet kiss....
I tested her, I told her I’d visit her at work on Saturday, but she said “no, I won’t have time, I really have to work the room”....
But I wanted to see what it would be like at the sc now, so I visited last night. It was a very slow night, 2 lap dances her whole shift. About $10 in ones during her stage dance....mmmm OK, so those $10 were from me, but she was uncomfortable dancing in front of me, she blushed, looked nervous. She sat with me pretty much the whole time, and we just talked about food, flirted....and it was the same thing, she was nervous, a bit shy, acted uncomfortable when guys looked at her, and when she was giving lap dances kept looking at me. Never asked me to get a dance, never asked for money......we made plans for this week...
We talked about her job, I told her I understand its just a job, that I’m not the jealous type and will support her in whatever she wants to do, that I don’t want to control her....a part of building something real is learning to trust, respecting the person, and realizing that the only beating that can make someone stay is the beating of their heart....so she asked me if I would still go see her at the sc if we were a couple, and I said no....she interrupted and said she understands....I told her she wouldn’t be comfortable dancing with me around then, when she acts so uncomfortable when guys look at her while I’m there now....She said that if things became serious enough she wouldn’t have a problem quitting her job.....that what she wants in life is just a stable, comfortable life, someone who adores her and who she can have a family with....
Everyone in the club pretty much just stared at us....we were kind of in our own little world....the look in her eyes was priceless.....her “X” showed up, she didn’t want to talk with him and was hanging on to me, he pushed me, I pushed him back, the bouncers took him out back....then the paramedics and police came to pick him up....
So after the excitement the club emptied out, the girls were pretty depressed....I sneaked $100 into her purse....after tipping out, she would have only made $30 that night....and its not like she’ll know I put it there, maybe she’ll just think she misplaced it before or something....
I feel more sane now, I at least know the way I’m being used....and I’m trying to not get too wrapped up emotionally but rather to look at the situation strategically.
I know the odds are against a happy ending, but we’ll see. I’m giving it til the end of June, since we’ll both be out of town during July anyways, she’ll be visiting family, and I will as well....so we’ll see....
evan_essence
05-31-2005, 04:19 AM
Now that you've received your answers and formulated how to proceed, I'm baffled why you're still posting so many details. If I were her, I'd be miffed you were giving a play-by-play narrative now that it's no longer necessary. Assuming you're for real, do me a ginormous personal favor and leave these salivating voyeurs hanging by suspending the telling of the tale. The die's cast. It's really none of our business at this point.
-Ev
yoda57us
05-31-2005, 05:41 AM
I agree with Ev here Doc. I know we've given you a lot of crap and you probably feel some vindication by posting about how things are progressing with this lady but I think you've said enough. It's a relationship now, not a test case.
Good Luck.
janazoo
05-31-2005, 06:50 AM
Doc,
She was scruffilly dressed in jeans and t-shirt, hair in a pony tail and no make-up - didn't look glamorous at all. So we studied for some hours, she cooked a meal for the two of us, I also looked at the latest Cichlid fry to hatch, (she's an expert on tropical fish), and she spent 15 minutes showing me her latest Playstation game. Normal few hours passed between friends. I think the only time dancing entered the conversation was when I was leaving and arranged to give her a lift home from work next Thursday.
Wow, there is so much to say concerning this thread. The quote from Phil-W is very important and this is why taking your time to get to know someone is so important.
You get to know her friends, her lifestyle (even if it is not glamorous outside the club).
When dating a stripper my advise is take it slow.
Also she is only 21 or 22 and you are 30, you may be ready for a relationship and she may just want to fool around like most young kids do.
Don't give give give and be a wuss she will lose respect for you and take advantage of you. Believe me she like the bad guy and if you become a pushover she will take everything you have and leave you flat.
so you take her out of the "shit" life environment and she starts cheating on you with the come back of I'm still young......
I hope you are ready for that
Go for it though withouth any expectations on her and let her prove herself to you as much as you are to prove your self to her.
Love happens quickly but relationships evolve.
It's like any relationship and let's hope she does not have deep deep emotional problems.
You are out of your league Doc. You are expecting better from her and she may not be able to deliver.
If you took it slow you would get to know her and not have problems with GF. he would slowly disolve.
Perceived Gold Plated Vagina Syndrome.
The solution is easy and simple: Go fuck ten other women
Then they all begin to blur in your mind and no individual one seems so important
Moneywise
05-31-2005, 09:29 AM
http://home.mchsi.com/%7Endtjr/psychothread.jpg ::)
Well, its getting quite interesting, for the most part it is like a Pandora's box....you really do need to be careful what you wish for. There are a lot of issues....she definitely has emotional baggage and hasn't had the best conditioning. In all honesty I'm not thinking of the future now, it wouldn't be realistic at this point.
But I think that exotic dancing really does take a toll on a woman's selfesteem, ability to trust men, control issues, and money management skills. At the same time it creates a certain resilience.....
To anyone dating an exotic dancer, or thinking about it....here is my advice....
1---Don't be pushy, she gets propositioned by countless men everyday, show her you're different. The only way to do that is by seeing her regularly....letting her have a chance to get to know you.
2---Tip her, but not too much, just as a formal token that you realize she is at her place of employment. Create a friendship, not a customer relationship. Don't buy dances from her, but instead just talk with her, joke with her, ask her how she's doing. Bring a small gift once in a while....like a card or something, a single rose...write her a poem, something small. If she's interested, like any woman she'll appreciate it.
3---Don't judge her for being an exotic dancer, her work is only a part of her life, don't define her by it. Treat her like you would any other woman you're interested in.
4---Take care of yourself, if your body isn't bad, you smell nice, and dress well, she'll be more apt to finding you attractive....I know its shallow and superficial, but if you look the part of a guy who needs to go to an sc to get his kicks, why would she want you when other women don't....
5---The best way to know if she likes you is when she starts hanging out with you and doesn't expect anything....when the sc staff start treating you like an acquaintance rather than a customer.....
6---Don't ask for her number, its a trust thing, instead give her yours....if she doesn't call, go see her 1 time, if she doesn't call after that then forget it. If she does call, look at what kind of call it is. If she just asks you to come to the sc, or something work related, she sees you as a walking ATM....if she calls and asks to hang out, go out, whatever......then she likes you.
7---Look at the discrepencies between her words and her actions. Because of the environment you meet her in, she won't be honest with you at first....but if she gets to like you, trust you, look at how much she opens up...if she doesn't start opening up after a while, move on.
8---When you do start seeing her, don't be too easy, play hard to get as well. Let her know you also have a busy life.....don't let her walk all over you...because if you let her she will....
Things are going pretty good with this girl....we're taking it slowly....It feels a little strange....to have actually met someone like her this way, but you can often find amazing things in the most unpredictable places....If things go smoothly, we decided to move in together in September, when I'll be taking a new position....
About the age thing....she is only 23, but she's the oldest girl I've ever dated....so thats also a new one for me!
Susan Wayward
06-08-2005, 03:37 PM
About the age thing....she is only 23, but she's the oldest girl I've ever dated....so thats also a new one for me!
Troll or emotionally stunted? You make the call.
Phil-W
06-09-2005, 12:28 PM
To anyone dating an exotic dancer, or thinking about it....here is my advice....
1---Don't be pushy, she gets propositioned by countless men everyday, show her you're different. The only way to do that is by seeing her regularly....letting her have a chance to get to know you.
2---Tip her, but not too much, just as a formal token that you realize she is at her place of employment. Create a friendship, not a customer relationship. Don't buy dances from her, but instead just talk with her, joke with her, ask her how she's doing. Bring a small gift once in a while....like a card or something, a single rose...write her a poem, something small. If she's interested, like any woman she'll appreciate it.
3---Don't judge her for being an exotic dancer, her work is only a part of her life, don't define her by it. Treat her like you would any other woman you're interested in.
4---Take care of yourself, if your body isn't bad, you smell nice, and dress well, she'll be more apt to finding you attractive....I know its shallow and superficial, but if you look the part of a guy who needs to go to an sc to get his kicks, why would she want you when other women don't....
5---The best way to know if she likes you is when she starts hanging out with you and doesn't expect anything....when the sc staff start treating you like an acquaintance rather than a customer.....
6---Don't ask for her number, its a trust thing, instead give her yours....if she doesn't call, go see her 1 time, if she doesn't call after that then forget it. If she does call, look at what kind of call it is. If she just asks you to come to the sc, or something work related, she sees you as a walking ATM....if she calls and asks to hang out, go out, whatever......then she likes you.
7---Look at the discrepencies between her words and her actions. Because of the environment you meet her in, she won't be honest with you at first....but if she gets to like you, trust you, look at how much she opens up...if she doesn't start opening up after a while, move on.
8---When you do start seeing her, don't be too easy, play hard to get as well. Let her know you also have a busy life.....don't let her walk all over you...because if you let her she will....
Err... the advice is accurate, but is it also an attempt to win an award for stating the bleeding obvious?
Phil.
I'm not emotionally stunted....I don't see a problem with dating younger women though...
Jenny
06-09-2005, 05:35 PM
If you are nearing/over 30 and 23 is the oldest woman you have ever dated (assuming that you haven't been celibate and/or dateless for the past few years) then there is something a little weird about it.
yoda57us
06-09-2005, 06:17 PM
About the age thing....she is only 23, but she's the oldest girl I've ever dated....so thats also a new one for me!
Doc, you're either a Troll or a guy with more issues than any dancer that I've ever met.