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BigGreenMnM
06-28-2005, 08:23 PM
The crucible, here, is this: Willing vs. Unwilling.

really?
From your viewpoint maybe,but from a legal standpoint,or lack of,The girls do know before going in,if not,they sure find out fast.
The girls know its going on(at least those that will admit it)
The clubs know it.
the staff knows it.
Now you know it.
And it still goes on????

Why???

If everyone says its rape and sexual abuse,why is it still going on if we all know???

Could it be that we alll know its going on,but we condone it??
Could it be that we ALL dont consider it rape or sexual abuse,only im the dumb ass who said it first??

Maybe alot of people subscribe to the "you cant rape your wife"theory afterall,and this is just a good example of it.
Maybe i was wrong?




I have two questions:

If a man was to do any of the above to an unwilling woman in any other setting what is it then? Is it sexual assault?

Dam right it is.
But then,in most settings,the woman is not naked with her puss close enough for a guy to stick his tongue in.





If so, why isn't it sexual assault in ANY setting? If not, why not?

I dont have the answer to that or the million other illegal and imoral things i see within this industry.
Ask yourself this..
Now that the dirty laundry is on the line,why do you condone it???



If she's all for it, on the other hand, that's another story (and there are plenty of girls who are just that).
really???
So if a guy is at a club,and the first 10 lapdances he gets,the girls let him finger,then girl #11 screams rape or sexual assault when he does it.

Is it rape or sexual assault??
Or was the guy intrapped??

BigGreenMnM
06-28-2005, 08:34 PM
I suppose i'll bow to consensus and now remove myself from the discussion.

oh thats just fuckin perfect!!!
One of the few sane and level headed males on the forum running from this issue within our industry.
Fuckin perfect!
Dont be afraid of the rape card cap,these girls need your input now.

Your last two questions are proof of that.

Madcap
06-28-2005, 08:43 PM
Why do i do this to myself?




Maybe alot of people subscribe to the "you cant rape your wife"theory afterall,and this is just a good example of it.

A lot of people DO subscribe to that line of thinking.





But then,in most settings,the woman is not naked with her puss close enough for a guy to stick his tongue in.

What difference does that make?




Now that the dirty laundry is on the line,why do you condone it???

Honestly, i don't condone it. I don't DO it. I don't SEE it (then again i'm not sitting there watching other guys get lapdanced, either). Frankly, the idea of fingering a total stranger isn't all that enticing, anyway. Who knows where the fuck this chick's been.



So if a guy is at a club,and the first 10 lapdances he gets,the girls let him finger,then girl #11 screams rape or sexual assault when he does it.
Is it rape or sexual assault??
Or was the guy intrapped??

Yup. It is if she's pushing/fighting him off. "She didn't say anything" isn't an excuse. People can and do talk without opening their mouthes.

And, one last thing, what i'm doing is calling a duck a duck. I'm not talking about lawyers and courtrooms (Something i know nothing about anyway). Not being able to prove something is what it is doesn't make it anything other than what it is. Kind of the inverse of "Not Guilty doesn't mean innocent."


NOW i'll remove myself (honest this time! Uhh, maybe)

isis67
06-28-2005, 08:56 PM
OK, I understand completly how you feel trust me I do.

There is one thing I have to question.
He didn't speak english right? If he didn't then he might not of understood. If you said "NO!" Loud and clear then he could have possibly done it being an asshole. I remember when I was little, and I came to america, not one person I talked to understood me and I could not understand them. I can't tell you how many times I got into trouble for not doing what I was told when I just did not understand what they were saying.
If you just said to him your not allowed to do that in a sexy voice, like so many women do so not to lose their custys he probably thought you were sweet talking to him. I know this sounds stupid, but it is very true.
You were not raped. You were abused and I admitt it feels horrible, you probably see him as the worst human possible to a fact that the word rape is the only word you could fit to be with that man. He sexually assaulted you on a higher level.
I just have to stress the fact that you did not yell, because you were to scared. He had no clue what was going through your mind. Not one. He got punched in the face in his opinion for no reason. I feel bad for him. I know what it is like to go through that. I do agree that it must have been terrible. I know.

But I do have to agree with biggreenmnm. on ALMOST all of his opinions.

Then again it's just in my opinion.

Muyaha
06-28-2005, 09:09 PM
Well how would the dude understand "I'm not allowed to do this" if he didn't speak any english? No means No in spanish too. I'm just going by spanish since the original poster said it was a mexican dude that didn't speak english. I think people that speak other languages pretty much understand a clear and absolute NO.

Mr Hyde
06-28-2005, 09:28 PM
edited because maybe I don't know what I'm talking about

BigGreenMnM
06-28-2005, 09:28 PM
Why do i do this to myself?
Maybe because you know,for every drama queen that flips a lid,100 girls will see this and know the truth,no holds barred,even if it aint pretty.

Oh wait,thats why IM doing this and eating shit.



A lot of people DO subscribe to that line of thinking.
and when you said i did also,i didnt agree,because i dont.(at least i didnt think i did till now)
But the fact that we,me,you,the girls,the clubs,the custies,the law,all know its going on,proves me wrong.
We all let it continue,we are all guilty.
True??


What difference does that make?
In a court of law,and in a sexual survors group,it makes alot of difference im sorry to say.But im no lawyer,so im guessing.


Honestly, i don't condone it. I don't DO it. I don't SEE it (then again i'm not sitting there watching other guys get lapdanced, either). Frankly, the idea of fingering a total stranger isn't all that enticing, anyway. Who knows where the fuck this chick's been.

I have no doubts in your word,fingering strange people isnt high on my list either.

But would you say to this court,under oath,that you didnt know it was going on??
That You didnt know females were being groped beyond thier personal limits in the paradise room nightly,maybe even to the point of being penetrated??
remember,your under oath!!!!!!



Yup. It is if she's pushing/fighting him off. "She didn't say anything" isn't an excuse. People can and do talk without opening their mouthes.

So your willing to walk into court,tell a judge,"she was naked,giving this guy a lapdance,in a strip club vip room.She didnt scream or say anything,she didnt fight or cause even the slightest commotion to be noticed by the on duty doorguy a mere few feet away,and then she took money in the end of the rape/dance"


I'm not talking about lawyers and courtrooms (Something i know nothing about anyway).

lol,I agree.
But even i know,no sane lawyer would ever touch this case.


Not being able to prove something is what it is doesn't make it anything other than what it is. Kind of the inverse of "Not Guilty doesn't mean innocent."
So sayeth the juries in OJ and MJ.

Just a question though...

If it were rape or sexual assault,should this guy go to jail for what he did??
say 5-15 years???
On the sex offenders list for life??
A convicted felon for life??

If your going to call this rape or sexual assault,then let the time fit the crime.

Should this guy,and all the other guys who do this go to jail???

Thats alot of freekin guys!!!
You say you dont see them,kewl,im saying i see many every night,for decades,and alot of people reading this have seen it to,zillions of times.

Do we put them all in jail?????

Gerina
06-28-2005, 10:00 PM
Big Green, you're right that it isn't a pretty business, but I think you're taking the "pulling the rape card" thing too far. I don't think lilithmorgan was trying to pull anything, but that she was forcibly assaulted and needed consolling. It doesn't matter what the "correct" definition in the law is but that it happened and it sucks and she's going to have to be strong to keep stripping.

I work in a club where some girls allow extras, but I've only had control issues a couple times. Most men have enough sense to ask exactly what your personal rules are. You'll face it all the time as a stripper, with anything trying to be grabbed, but "to get used to it" is crazy. It's almost like tolerating abuse. You set defined boundries and the man adheres to them or gets kicked out, ripped off, or prosecuted appropriately. Prosecution is definitely a personal choice, especially since people are seriously impacted by abuse, no matter what the degree.

Race is totally irrelevant. Any man without morals will be disrespectful when he feels comfortable doing so. A SC can often be such a setting, but we need to acknowledge that and act accordingly to prevent it. I've been grabbed by old asians, mexicans, blacks, and white guys (the most, probably because they dominate in race). Doesn't mean I called it rape, but I did call them on the abuse.

Lilithmorgan, I'm glad you're working toward moving forward, and I hope everything turns out happier. I understand your stereotyping because of the experience, but I hope you realize that it could be anybody.

Madcap
06-28-2005, 10:02 PM
and when you said i did also,i didnt agree,because i dont.(at least i didnt think i did till now)

I didn't really say you did. The comparison was a poor one, now that i look back on it.



But the fact that we,me,you,the girls,the clubs,the custies,the law,all know its going on,proves me wrong.
We all let it continue,we are all guilty.

Well, in a larger way the 'fault' stands on those who's job it is to stop it. I suppose having the bouncers patrol any VIP/LD area a lot more, though as discreetly as possible, might go a long way towards stopping the more blatant stuff (and it might curtail some, eh, extra activity). But in that case some customers WILL notice that and high tail it to a less watchful club. It's a viscious circle. In a perfect world people would respect personal boundries, but that's not the one we are stuck with.

Even the most raincoating raincoater on the blue site states over and over that they don't harass anyone who doesn't want to be caught for the right price. Someone says no all they lose out on is a couple dances. No real harm, no real foul except for some extra hustling on the dancer's part.

I suppose we ARE all guilty of shit like this, but as with all the problems with society: Throw a rock and you'll hit someone who's guilty. Guys sometimes get so fucking repressed that the second those normal standards they feel so constrained by change in any way they morph into Bluto from animal house. It's retarded, but true. I don't think it's a problem that can be fixed.


In a court of law,and in a sexual survors group,it makes alot of difference im sorry to say.But im no lawyer,so im guessing.

I know full well that damn near anything that happens in a SC (on the part of the customers or the dancers) won't hold up in a courtroom. It seems to go like this: Cops>club>customer>dancer in order of who is believed in a courtroom.

But that doesn't change the fact that this shit happens all the time and it is and should be called Assault. Call it by the name of the crime because what else are you going to call it?



But would you say to this court,under oath,that you didnt know it was going on??
That You didnt know females were being groped beyond thier personal limits in the paradise room nightly,maybe even to the point of being penetrated??
remember,your under oath!!!!!!

Ididn'tdoitnobodysawmedoit! :angel:

I could sure as hell say i didn't see anything! As i said, i'm not sitting there watching some guy get a LD. But that's not the point, is it? I know it's going on even if i don't see it. I can only really speak for myself. I damned well HOPE i've never touched anyone outside her personal boundaries, anyway. I'm not too worried about it, though. I'm a pretty tame guy to dance for.




So your willing to walk into court,tell a judge,"she was naked,giving this guy a lapdance,in a strip club vip room.She didnt scream or say anything,she didnt fight or cause even the slightest commotion to be noticed by the on duty doorguy a mere few feet away,and then she took money in the end of the rape/dance"

With or without the money changing hands the case would still no nowhere. Prudes rule the US. No illusions here. But it's still crap that guys feel that they can do this shit. I don't care if they only speak Albanian. Shaking the head and shoving at the hand are pretty universal signs for "no touchy! no touchy feelie!"



If it were rape or sexual assault,should this guy go to jail for what he did??
say 5-15 years???
On the sex offenders list for life??
A convicted felon for life
If your going to call this rape or sexual assault,then let the time fit the crime.

If it's going to fit the crime 5-15 years isn't what the guy would get for Sexual Assault. It's far less of a criminal offense than actual rape, and rapists have a hard time staying in jail for 5 years much less 15. SA would be much less. I'd say the dude needs some kind of mental help. If he's willing to force himself on someone something's wrong with his head.


You say you dont see them,kewl,im saying i see many every night,for decades,and alot of people reading this have seen it to,zillions of times.

How do i put this... I'm not exactly looking at what guys are doing in a strip club. My attention is elsewhere. Honestly, E.T. could ask me for some reeses pieces in a SC and i wouldn't even notice.


Do we put them all in jail?????

Depends on what they do. But again, the cards are stacked against the Dancer in a situation like this. At least outside the club. I'd advocate a beatdown from Mr. Happy the bouncer, though, if it's some shit like force feeding himself some chick's clitorus (A little blue, i know).

Lysondra
06-28-2005, 10:27 PM
BigGreen...

I DID FIGHT!! I was pushing him and hitting at him and everything. I wasn't strong enough to push him off me. He KNEW I was saying NO. I said NO. I said stop. No is No in spanish too! I was NOT sultry about it I was DEFINITELY fighting him off. No. No. No!

Madcap
06-28-2005, 10:31 PM
^ I rest my case

screaminpeachez
06-28-2005, 11:01 PM
lilith if you need to p.m. someone to talk;
let me know and i'll give my email or something.


I'm sure most of the girls here would do the same.
right ladies?

scarlett_vancouver
06-28-2005, 11:35 PM
Actually, by the law, rape is vaginal penetration with a penis only. Everything else falls under sexual assault or sodomy.



Well, our laws are different up here. A case was very profiled up here where a woman was raped with a hammer. RAPED. No penis.

I wonder if it's a state or federal thing for you guys? It's a grey area, to be sure...
I'm still disgusted with anyone bowing to the status quo opinion that this isn't rape. Even if we're just talking semantics- for the purposes of our discussion here, rushing in and saying "it's not rape, it sexual assault" isSO beside the point.

Sorry for veering off topic, lilith. This thread should be about you and helping you deal with this.

Lysondra
06-28-2005, 11:43 PM
I don't mind veering off topic at all. I wasn't really expecting an 'aww I feel bad for you' response, really. :) I just wanted to know if this was a common, daily occurance for every stripper at a club, really. I wanted to know if it happened to other girls. If it was common among the Mexican population. I wanted to know what I should do if this situation should occur again... really I wasn't looking for a pity party or anything.

I love the direction this thread is going, it shows people have different opinions and it tells me what I really should be thinking to myself should this situation present itself to me again.

I believe you can be raped with a hammer. It makes sense to me.

Thank you Scarlett.

Peachez, do you have AIM other than Yahoo? I only have AIM and was wondering if we could maybe just chat? :)

evan_essence
06-29-2005, 03:28 AM
As we join Evangelica and Big Green at a hypothetical strip club where they're both hypothetically working, Evan finds herself in a bit of hypothetical trouble with a hypothetical customer ...

Evan: "Hey! This mother f*&%er is trying to rape me! I need some help over here!"

Big Green: "Well, that's a pretty strong word. Are you sure it's actually rape?"

Evan: "F*&% yeah, I'm sure, he's sticking his finger in me."

BG: "Well, technically, the penal code.. huh huh.. no pun intended ... says only a penis is rape. You're speaking of digital penetration."

Evan: "Sh*t, whatever! You say tomayto, I say tomahto, I just need some help to get him off!"

BG: "It really is important that you not cry out 'rape' the moment a customer merely touches your kitty. The club could be sued for such baseless allegations."

Evan: "Ohmygawd! He's coming at me with his tongue!"

BG: "You know, many so-called 'extras' girls prefer that to the finger. Are you sure he doesn't simply misunderstand you? He apparently doesn't even speak the language."

Evan: "No! Nyet! Nein! Negatory! F*cko offo!"

BG: "Puh-lease. No need to be condescending to him because of his ethnicity. Talk about a violation of his civil rights! You ought to know better."

Evan: "Let go!"

BG: "Now I see you're hitting him. Please don't, because, again, the club could be sued and who would the court believe? You or someone with a penis?"

Evan: "If you're not going to help me, call the f*&%in' bouncers over."

BG: "You know I can't do that, Evan. They tend to believe everything you say simply because they want to boink you themselves, and thus, they might get really nasty with him and wrinkle his clothes. Then he might insist the club pay his dry cleaning bill. Not a risk the club's willing to take."

Evan: "There's nothing you can do to help me?"

BG: "I think it's too late to call the cops. They would only want to know, if this is a real sexual assault and not just role playing, why they weren't called the moment it began."

Evan: "He's got a hacksaw!"

BG: "Yes, yes, I'm not surprised. Some other girl probably said it was okay for 20 bucks to cut on her, so how's he supposed to know it's not two-for-one night? Really, just toughen up a bit and deal, okay? This happens in strip clubs all the time. Don't exagerate this penny ante stuff, you whiner."

(Sawing noises)

Evan: "EEEeeek!"

BG: "I swear, try not to be so loud with your fake orgasm. And please don't air your problems over on that pity party that is Stripper Web. I read that crap and the so-called support system makes me so angry. Oh, and remember to clean up after yourself when he's done, and don't forget your tip out tonight. Thanks ever so much."

All purely hypothetical, of course.

-Ev

Miss Courtney
06-29-2005, 04:24 AM
Im so sorry that happened to you nobody should have to go through that sort of thing but the sad thing is that it does happen. If you need someone to talk to you can PM me.
xxx

Malak
06-29-2005, 04:27 AM
FYI... "Para te" is the proper way to say "stop" in that situation. I asked my local representative of the minority soon to be a majority. LOL It's possible mexicans say it slightly differently from Puerto Ricans but close enough I imagine...

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 05:58 AM
As we join Evangelica and Big Green at a hypothetical strip club where they're both hypothetically working, Evan finds herself in a bit of hypothetical trouble with a hypothetical customer ...

Evan: "Hey! This mother f*&%er is trying to rape me! I need some help over here!"

Big Green: "Well, that's a pretty strong word. Are you sure it's actually rape?"

Evan: "F*&% yeah, I'm sure, he's sticking his finger in me."

BG: "Well, technically, the penal code.. huh huh.. no pun intended ... says only a penis is rape. You're speaking of digital penetration."

Evan: "Sh*t, whatever! You say tomayto, I say tomahto, I just need some help to get him off!"

BG: "It really is important that you not cry out 'rape' the moment a customer merely touches your kitty. The club could be sued for such baseless allegations."

Evan: "Ohmygawd! He's coming at me with his tongue!"

BG: "You know, many so-called 'extras' girls prefer that to the finger. Are you sure he doesn't simply misunderstand you? He apparently doesn't even speak the language."

Evan: "No! Nyet! Nein! Negatory! F*cko offo!"

BG: "Puh-lease. No need to be condescending to him because of his ethnicity. Talk about a violation of his civil rights! You ought to know better."

Evan: "Let go!"

BG: "Now I see you're hitting him. Please don't, because, again, the club could be sued and who would the court believe? You or someone with a penis?"

Evan: "If you're not going to help me, call the f*&%in' bouncers over."

BG: "You know I can't do that, Evan. They tend to believe everything you say simply because they want to boink you themselves, and thus, they might get really nasty with him and wrinkle his clothes. Then he might insist the club pay his dry cleaning bill. Not a risk the club's willing to take."

Evan: "There's nothing you can do to help me?"

BG: "I think it's too late to call the cops. They would only want to know, if this is a real sexual assault and not just role playing, why they weren't called the moment it began."

Evan: "He's got a hacksaw!"

BG: "Yes, yes, I'm not surprised. Some other girl probably said it was okay for 20 bucks to cut on her, so how's he supposed to know it's not two-for-one night? Really, just toughen up a bit and deal, okay? This happens in strip clubs all the time. Don't exagerate this penny ante stuff, you whiner."

(Sawing noises)

Evan: "EEEeeek!"

BG: "I swear, try not to be so loud with your fake orgasm. And please don't air your problems over on that pity party that is Stripper Web. I read that crap and the so-called support system makes me so angry. Oh, and remember to clean up after yourself when he's done, and don't forget your tip out tonight. Thanks ever so much."

All purely hypothetical, of course.

-Ev
Very hypothetical indeed,and total bullshit.(but you knew that when you wrote this post)

Sorry sweety,I have beat down more guys for this offense,and many lessor ones,more times then you have done lapdances,and i got many scars to prove my service to the queens.

You can try to play all innocent"im a girl"bullshit,but your not a newbie,you know this is going on as well,you shoulder more of the guilt then I do,not only do you condone it,you continue to go to work every day and ignore it happening to your own co workers.

Its so easy to rally on the dipshit who would EVER say "wait a sec"when the rape card is delt.Its easier then dealing with the issue at hand.

This issue isnt about Lillith,its about what girls deal with every day and every night in this business.
Im saying its going on,im saying there are alot of double standards and never ending circles surrounding it.
Im saying everyone condones it just by going to work or attending a club as a custie and knowing this goes on.

I dont think this was rape,just saying it lessons the actual cases of rape and waters down the word IMO.
I dont think this was sexual abuse according to social standards,and again,weakens the word for those who really have been.

This is a violation.A violation of the girl,a violation of the clubs rules,nothing more.

Saying every guy who crosses the line in the VIP room is a rapist or a sexual offender is just plain DRAMA.

So now YOU explain to Lillith why you let her go into the VIP room when you KNOW this happens every day in our world.
You knew,she evidentially didnt.
How much of this is your fault???

Im sorry you dont see my point about the code of silence we have in the vip room and whats actually going on.

I sure would like to know your cure all??

If im wrong and this IS rape or sexual assault,how come everyone is turning a blind eye??
How come i have never seen a court case??
Never seen a police report filed??


I could care less what custies say,from what i have seen with my own eyes over decades,MOST custies come in the club looking for extras in the vip room.
MANY girls provide those extras.
Most girls provide extras to some degree or another.(admit it or not)

these are the ones you should be mad at,not me,then you can move on to the clubs and our legal system.
Its a circle of condoning it.

Many girls I have worked with know how hard core I am when it comes to thier protection,even to the point of going overboard.
But in this situation,my hands are tied.
Cry "wolf"and im the first one there.
Even after years of hearing "wolf",and never finding one,I still side with the dancer first.
Only now,there had better be a wolf,or im going to call you on it.

You can blame all the custies looking for extra's,the girls who give them,and the girls who cry wolf when there wasnt one.

Or we can dump on the only person who is discussing the real issue.

Just know this,there WILL be THOUSANDS of Lilliths TONIGHT in clubs across this country.
Now you fuckers know.
Now your guilty of condoning it.

I may be an asshole for not blindly taking a dancers word on it when she calls rape or sexual assault(thats a learned reaction from you gals),but you folks are guilty of a far worse crime,you sit silent while girls are being raped and sexualy assaulted.
At least im raising a red flag.
what are you champions of females rights doing about it??

IACali
06-29-2005, 07:03 AM
Alright I'm jumping in her for just a moment. BG, I love ya man, but you're running in the wrong direction.

Rape or sexual assault or whatever have you, this girl was violated. Do I think that she should go to the authorities? No. Do I think that she has a right to voice her unhappiness at being assaulted without you telling her that she WASN'T assaulted? Absolutely yes.

I actually like your carpenter analogy quite a bit, except it's off. Your carpenter hits himself with a hammer. So it's like if I climb the pole and fall off of it. Then it's silly for me to yell at the pole for assaulting me - I did it to myself.

What happened to the OP and to many other dancers, far too frequently, is not our fault. Saying that because we are dancers and should expect it walks a little too close to the "she was dressed slutty and was drunk when she got gang raped at that frat party. what did she expect? she was asking for it." line of thought for my comfort level.

A man made the choice to violate her. That choice is three part. He disobeyed the rules, number one, but people do that all the time. He could've at least been gentlemanly about it - I've known very nice men that manage to break the rules with the dancer's permission. The kicker is number three - the OP said NO. End of story.

Whether or not this situation would result in a rape CONVICTION is a moot point. Just because a rapist doesn't go to jail doesn't mean that he's not a rapist.

In our line of work, occasional tongues or fingers will go up occasional pussies. But to quote Mr_P's signature, which is a quote of Nina Daisy's,

"If you insist on slipping your nasty, filthy, e. coli ridden fingers into the vagina of a woman you don't even know, at least ask and don't RAPE her."

love
cali

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 09:48 AM
I was gonna write on this, but I think I'll just leave it alone and let BgMnM sit up on his soapbox.

Muyaha
06-29-2005, 11:47 AM
I just wanted to know if this was a common, daily occurance for every stripper at a club, really. I wanted to know if it happened to other girls. If it was common among the Mexican population. I wanted to know what I should do if this situation should occur again... really I wasn't looking for a pity party or anything.

Yes it is a daily occurence in SC all over the world and the US. No it is not common among the Mexican population, the ethnicity of the assaultor has nothing to do with the rate of occurence. Rape or assault or taking advantage of a chic is done by all ethnicities, races, creeds, and religions. As to what you should do if the situation comes up again, say no very firmly, scream or yell for security, kick punch bite if the assault continues.

Clark
06-29-2005, 12:03 PM
The club I frequent has a bouncer that stands there and watches all private dances. THis strikes me as a good arrangement. And a pretty good job for him.

scarlett_vancouver
06-29-2005, 12:16 PM
You can try to play all innocent"im a girl"bullshit,but your not a newbie,you know this is going on as well,you shoulder more of the guilt then I do,not only do you condone it,you continue to go to work every day and ignore it happening to your own co workers.



Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye- this is a VERY rare occurence in my experience (which spans well over 30 clubs in 6 countries). VERY VERY rare. So rare that each case is a big-ass deal. It may happen consentually (sp?) every night all over the world, but I'm not convinced that girls get fingered against their will all that often in SCs! If you see it that much, maybe there's something wrong with your club.

Evan, lol- no kidding, eh?

And what IS "innocent 'im a girl'" bullshit, anyways? I'm a girl- I'm smaller and less muscular than 90% of men. If a man wanted to grab me and rape me, he could at almost any time and I may or may not be able to fight him off. The only thing that stops me from getting raped daily is human decency, my own careful-ness, and people around me who would help and report the guy. If you take away the third, suddenly I'm not feeling quite so safe. Is that "i'm a girl" bullshit?

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 01:01 PM
Welcome to my real world folks,the kiddie pool is thataway.


It's okay Scarlet, you can join me over here in the kiddie pool. I've got floaties and margaritas.;D

Gerina
06-29-2005, 01:08 PM
BG, I do have respect that while you're in your club you side with the dancer. It is your job to always do so, but a lot SC don't even give the dancers the due respect. I don't think you're coming across on the dancer's side here, though, and evan_essance tried to point out how you're sounding to us.

Just because club rules protect us from assault does not mean that it is no longer assault but a belittled club rule. I also hold the very unpopular opinion that the extras girls do not affect my business; my business is separate from theirs. I also hold respect for the johns and my coworkers because I work in the same club the are at, and they still have respect for my own wishes. Guys ask me for extras every shift, but when I get a customer into a VIP area he is not expecting extras - my customers know they will not get that from me. If in that VIP area he tries to violate my defined rules, it is still attempted assault. It is not my coworkers' fault for condoning it and it is not my fault for working in my club. It is the custy's fault for creating a despicable situation.

This is not just some dressing room DRAMA. Just because the girl next to me might suck a cock does not give a guy in the club the right to assume it's okay to shove my head at his dick behind a curtain. We work in SC, not defined brothels, not legally a place to go for sex but legal tantalizing entertainment. Just because we face the risk every day does not make it our fault when it happens. We did not allow it, and lilithmorgan even fought back. Now she's just fighting to keep herself intact and strong. She did not expect it from her clientale, she tried not to tolerate it, and she was assaulted (raped, whatever it's called it's still wrong).

When assault happens we have the right to press charges, but to do so often means we would not only lose our job but also gain notoriety. Even a hooker has the right to refuse rape. It's just a personal choice if it really needs to be done and is worth all risks. That's why you don't see a court case and turn a blind eye. The bottom line is this is a lucrative industry.

BG, if you were paid extraordinary amounts of money to walk around naked and give dances naked, and then some guy sticks a finger in your asshole when you didn't ask for it you'd be really upset, too. It isn't just being dramatic. But you'd probably keep your mouth shut from the authorities to keep receiving that money or you wouldn't be risking the industry in the first place. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't act accordingly to prevent it from happening again, and it doesn't mean that the guy was right because you were "asking for it".

Clark
06-29-2005, 01:15 PM
As for being common, I'd guess that whiel ass and boob-grabbing (and licking) are fairly common, this is less so. Even pigs mostly have limits.

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 01:30 PM
Alright I'm jumping in her for just a moment. BG, I love ya man, but you're running in the wrong direction.
running???
lol
I fell into a trap,its deep and wide,and im still falling looking for bottom!!!!


Rape or sexual assault or whatever have you, this girl was violated. Do I think that she should go to the authorities? No. Do I think that she has a right to voice her unhappiness at being assaulted without you telling her that she WASN'T assaulted? Absolutely yes.

This is my point,its not "whatever have you",its one of the biggest 4 letter words known to man,Rape.
Tossing that word around incorrectly is what I have issue with.

Of course she has a right to voice her unhappyness,and my initial response to her was as supportive as I could be,with honest opinions as to what i felt,i even offered solutions on how to TRY to avoid it in the future when it HAPPENS AGAIN(and if she continues to be a dancer,it WILL happen again,bet on it)
I was trying to help and even tried to bail before this got out of hand and things were said just to add drama to the mix.
I tried to dance around the OP's situation as much as possible and tried to address the overall issue,but it kept comming back into the discussion.


I agree it was a violation.
I dont agree its rape or sexual assault.
I dont agree with these guys who go to far,going to jail for many years, and being branded as a sexual offender for the rest of thier lives.
Do we all agree they deserve an ass kicking,sure.
Being an asshole is a far cry from being a rapist or a sexual offender.

The point is,everyone here knows about it,and they still let it go on a nightly basis.
Someone tried to say it wasnt about levels,but it is imo.
If your going to call it rape and sexual abuse,why is everyone ignoring it and its business as usual??
Maybe because most people i know dont consider this as a rape or sexual abuse level crime.
To call it rape,and not do anything about it??

Odd to me.



I actually like your carpenter analogy quite a bit, except it's off. Your carpenter hits himself with a hammer. So it's like if I climb the pole and fall off of it. Then it's silly for me to yell at the pole for assaulting me - I did it to myself.

What happened to the OP and to many other dancers, far too frequently, is not our fault. Saying that because we are dancers and should expect it walks a little too close to the "she was dressed slutty and was drunk when she got gang raped at that frat party. what did she expect? she was asking for it." line of thought for my comfort level.


You are generally told before you start dancing in a lapdance club what to expect in the lapdance room.You are generally told before you do a lapdance whats ok and whats not.You are generally told what guys will try to do and how you should react.
For what you said to be correct,the girl would have to go in NOT knowing guys would be trying to grab them and get extras.
IM NOT SAYING ITS OK.I agree its a violation and it is not something a dancer should learn to except but ALWAYS expect.
Im saying,if you walk into a lapdance room,there is a HUGE chance,almost a gurantee,that some man will grope you.

To say someone didnt know it could happen is beyond me and i have a hard time beliving it.


A man made the choice to violate her. That choice is three part. He disobeyed the rules, number one, but people do that all the time. He could've at least been gentlemanly about it - I've known very nice men that manage to break the rules with the dancer's permission. The kicker is number three - the OP said NO. End of story.

Im also saying,that just because a woman crys wolf,the story isnt over yet.
Im sorry when a woman crys rape,the guy is assumed guilty from the get go(its the power of that word,i automatically think guilty also).
Im sorry that the situation stares us in the face everynight and that people are tossing that word around,yet do nothing close to what that word demands.


Whether or not this situation would result in a rape CONVICTION is a moot point. Just because a rapist doesn't go to jail doesn't mean that he's not a rapist.
If that were the case,every man ever charged with rape could still be called a rapist,even if he was found not guilty??

I know,and im sure you know,and im sure anyone reading this and who is thinking without the drama knows,this would never even get to court.

IF ITS RAPE OR SEXUAL ABUSE,AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT,WHY WONT IT GO TO COURT??

Dont be pissed at me folks,im just pointing shit out to ya.
Be pissed at WHY this wont see a courtroom.

To say someone didnt know isnt an excuse.

You folks can change it.
You folks can condone and excuse it.
You folks can except it as part of doing business.

What you cant do is call it rape,then do nothing about it,and nothing to stop it.

Using that word in this situation,and doing nothing,lessons the word for those that have seen it and those that have been thru it imo.

Madcap
06-29-2005, 01:43 PM
IF ITS RAPE OR SEXUAL ABUSE,AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT,WHY WONT IT GO TO COURT??

Same reasons most of the time stuff like this doesn't go to court. Passivity, acceptance, and the fact that most often stuff like it isn't reported. A guy goes down to the baseball game and gooses a chick or grabs her breast and he can theoretically go to jail, does he most of the time? No. Because either the woman just wrinkles her nose and says "Jerk" under hear breath (or a few more colorful words) and then lets it go, or for whatever reason doesn't even report it. And that's a very tame example. Often even cases of rape go unreported (and rape is often a very, very, brutal crime) for one reason or another. This isn't even bringing in sexual abuse by a family member. And this is before lawyers even get into the mix. So "why won't this go to court" is moot. Most stuff like this doesn't go to court.

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 01:48 PM
Maybe that's where we're not seeing eye to eye- this is a VERY rare occurence in my experience (which spans well over 30 clubs in 6 countries). VERY VERY rare. So rare that each case is a big-ass deal. It may happen consentually (sp?) every night all over the world, but I'm not convinced that girls get fingered against their will all that often in SCs! If you see it that much, maybe there's something wrong with your club.


I dont have a club,im talking every club.
Im sorry you seem to not know its going on.
(lol and you danced in Canada?)
Its not just the fingers though.
If your going to call fingers rape and sexual abuse,then you also gotta add,tit grabbin,ass grabbin,and assorted lickings.
If one is considered rape,then so are the others.
All are invasions,all are not asked for(from none extra girls)

So if a guy grabs a boob during a lapdance,he is a rapist??

If a guy licks you when you said dont during a lapdance,is that sexual abuse??

Please do tell for the bennies of all the custies watching.

If you say yes,that means you are prepared to press charges and at least try to stop this from ever happening again.
Or you to,condone rape and sexual abuse or at least,except it as the cost of doing what we do.


and people around me who would help and report the guy.
Im one of those "people"around you trying to keep you safe.
Im also the guy who would testify in a case for the dancer if i thought it was rape we were talking about.
But I dont.

Madcap
06-29-2005, 01:54 PM
As far as boob/ass/cookie grabbing or licking or all that nonsense, if the girl tells him to knock it off it's on him if he chooses to ignore her. He isn't five years old. I see no reason to have to be told 19 times not to bite the nipple.

feint1125
06-29-2005, 02:01 PM
I don't think it matters What you call it.
A girl was assaulted in the place she works by a pervert. I don't care if she works at a Strip Club, she should have been protected from this in the first place.
I am sure that fingers and tongues DO stray, but to be physically restrained by a person as they have their way with you? Thats a different story.
A bouncer should have been there... IMO, they should ALWAYS be anywhere that a customer could get away with this without being seen. Just one pair of eyes to see that and it would have ended differently.
Maybe the OP would have been able to keep on her roll and make Big Bank.
Maybe she wouldn't have had her view of Mexicans that don't speak English as tainted as it was.
Maybe the guy wouldn't have tried anything in the first place with a burly bouncer waiting in the corner to toss his Ass.

But it happened anyway and I hope you (lilithmorigan) get past this alright and I am Sorry and wish that this never happens to you again.
No person has a right to do what they did to you.
And you should never have to Accept it, Or Expect it for that matter.
You should feel safe in the place you work.

toxicgirl
06-29-2005, 02:09 PM
i've had some issues like this one. one guy slammed me on the floor. i kicked him in the balls (he had got on top of me) and burned him with a lit cigarette i had in my hand. one of my fav denfenses (kinda gross): pissing. it's nasty, but they back of if you piss on them.

toxicgirl
06-29-2005, 02:10 PM
oh, yeah, and lilith- get me on a day when i have real bad pms and no chocolate- i'll help ya!

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 02:20 PM
A guy goes down to the baseball game and gooses a chick or grabs her breast and he can theoretically go to jail, does he most of the time? No. Because either the woman just wrinkles her nose and says "Jerk" under hear breath (or a few more colorful words) and then lets it go, or for whatever reason doesn't even report it. And that's a very tame example.


If a woman goes to 1000 baseball games,how many times do you think she will be groped on average??

If a woman does 1000 lapdances,how many times do you think she will be groped on average??

Im sorry the world has made this apples and oranges,I swear i didnt do it!!!

I think the guy at the baseball park SHOULD go to jail for sexual abuse!!!
I dont think the guy in the VIP deserves the same fate for grabbin a tit.

This industry agrees with me,and like it or not,everyone in this industry and those that support it,condone it.(I didnt invent that either,just trying to point it out)


Often even cases of rape go unreported
Im sure.
Exactly how many though??
Or is this another "she cried wolf"so it must be true thing??


(and rape is often a very, very, brutal crime)

Its about violence and not sex in most cases.

Is tit grabbing or ass grabbing in the lapdance room the same??
If someone calls them both rape,then they are right??

Do you think they are the same??

Alot of people are saying they are the same thing,i disagree.


This isn't even bringing in sexual abuse by a family member.

again,do you think this is even remotely the same as some drunk guy licking a boob in the lapdance room????
Or is this another example of "Levels"that some dont think exists??

Im sorry if its offensive to some,or if they think im belittling the word rape or what happens in every lapdance room in the world,but i DONT think its the same thing.

I think a rapist should hang,I think a drunk guy in the lapdance rooms deserves to be kicked out,or to have his ass kicked.



Most stuff like this doesn't go to court.
Nothing like this goes to court.

WHY???

Try to find where a stripper pressed charges and won on a custie who groped her during a lapdance,
you wont.

Lysondra
06-29-2005, 02:29 PM
Green, you keep missing the point. He didn't JUST grope me. You keep sayin titgrabbing or assgrabbing.

No. He PINNED ME DOWN AND PUT PARTS OF HIMSELF INSIDE ME.

Please refrain from replying to this thread again. You're causing the drama, not me.

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 02:31 PM
This is so twisted now, I'm not sure where it's going. One thing I agree with BgMnm is so many women do cry wolf when it comes to rape. It is a very serious accusation that women tend to throw around to get back at guys, and it ruins their lives. Yes, that is wrong and I'll give you that.

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 02:33 PM
Hey Lillith, would you like to join me in the kiddie pool? I've got rocks now so we can knock him off his soap box.

Lysondra
06-29-2005, 02:35 PM
Weee Kiddie Pool! ^-^ *throws rocks at boys*

Madcap
06-29-2005, 02:43 PM
If a woman goes to 1000 baseball games,how many times do you think she will be groped on average??

If a woman does 1000 lapdances,how many times do you think she will be groped on average??

More. But we aren't talking about that are we? We're talking about totally unwelcome stuff, here. Above and beyond anything like that, which is really a minor annoyance.


I think the guy at the baseball park SHOULD go to jail for sexual abuse!!!
I dont think the guy in the VIP deserves the same fate for grabbin a tit.

I don't know, i don't see a difference. I really don't. He didn't pick anyone up off any streetcorners, and if it's unwelcome it's unwelcome. That's the hurdle i can't get past to see things the way you present them. But then you're a long timer in an industry i only have a worm's eye view of, so of course you're naturally going to have a different view than i would.

Another thing about it that i don't get is that all these guys have to do is nose around a little, flash a wad of jacksons and SOMEONE will come along who is more than willing to put up with that stuff. There just isn't any need to violate anyone (and we can all agree on that word, i think).



Im sure.
Exactly how many though??
Or is this another "she cried wolf"so it must be true thing??

More than you think. There are several reasons why. Humilliation, desire for it to just be over with, fear of being called a liar, who knows. But a lot of women don't report it even when it's pretty fucking bad. You'd think that if someone shows up in a hospital, obviously raped, obviously brutalized, that some sort of ball would get rolling. Often it doesn't.

Yeah, some chicks cry wolf. It happens. Some people just aren't as moral as other people are and are willing to hurt/destroy another human being for whatever reason. Sad and stupid, but it's NO REASON to discount any other story until you know it to be false. Even though sometimes it's a false claim, oftentimes it isn't false.



Its about violence and not sex in most cases.

I'd say more about control.


Is tit grabbing or ass grabbing in the lapdance room the same??
If someone calls them both rape,then they are right??

Do you think they are the same??

That would be why i keep using the term Sexual Assault. Hell, maybe it IS rape but i'm hazy on exactly what rape consists of when it isn't the standard thing we think of when we watch Law & Order: SVU.


again,do you think this is even remotely the same as some drunk guy licking a boob in the lapdance room????
Or is this another example of "Levels"that some dont think exists??

Actually, it was another example of things that go unreported (and with a MUCH greater frequency).



Nothing like this goes to court.

WHY???

Try to find where a stripper pressed charges and won on a custie who groped her during a lapdance,
you wont.

I know you won't. And you haven't had many people disagreeing with you on that point.

madmaxine
06-29-2005, 03:07 PM
I have mentioned on SW that I start striking customers when the groping starts. This is the only thing they understand. I have worked in dumpy clubs with little or no security, and even if there are bouncers, rarely can they get to the custie to throw him out BEFORE the damage is done. I knew a private dancer who got raped during a hotel room show, and her bouncer came in and beat the rapist up AFTER she came out crying. But like I said, the damage was already done.
So women have to fend for themselves. It's sad, but this is the world we live in.

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 03:09 PM
I don't think it matters What you call it.

lol
as you can see,I disagree.

To call someone a rapist is seriouse shit imo and better be justified,or everyone can be called one who has ever grabbed a tit in the lapdance room.

Thats alot of guys imo,who dont deserve the label and what it means to be called one.


A girl was assaulted in the place she works by a pervert. I don't care if she works at a Strip Club, she should have been protected from this in the first place.
I am sure that fingers and tongues DO stray, but to be physically restrained by a person as they have their way with you? Thats a different story.

Ok wait,are you saying only the guys who restrain the girls are rapist,or is is also the guys everyone else is suggesting,the guys who just cop a feel during the lapdance room.

The fact that it IS a strip club is a HUGE part of the WHY im talking about.
Im not saying its right,im saying it isnt rape or sexual abuse,its a violation for the lack of a better word.

Maybe thats the problem,rape and sexual abuse are to strong of a word,and violation isnt strong enough imo.



A bouncer should have been there... IMO, they should ALWAYS be anywhere that a customer could get away with this without being seen. Just one pair of eyes to see that and it would have ended differently.

Im NOT talking about the situation with the OP!!!

But in most mid and top level clubs in this country,there IS a floorperson in the VIP room for exactly this reason.
It may be possible in some clubs,but for MOST of the club VIP rooms with an attendent,raping a dancer isnt easy and borders on impossible.
Thats just my opinion from what I have seen in many clubs and im sure some can tell about clubs that are different.
But for the most part,I would almost BET that a dancer cant be forced raped in the VIP room.

Just a side note,and really not someones business,but I have often found my tongue inside of a female,always at her request i assure you.
Isnt anyone seeing the position required to complete the insertion??
Cant anyone see how impossible it would be to do this without drawing some sort of attention or providing a chance for the alarm to be set off??
If something like this was forced on a woman,her legs would have to be spread,and held,leaving the top half of her body,including her voice,unheld.

Can you see this happening in any lapdance room you work in??

Do you think a man could hold you down in the lapdance room tonight at work,insert his tongue in you,and not get noticed??

Cmon ladies!!!!

Im not talking about the Op,im saying at all the clubs i have been in,its just not possible to insert your tongue in a dancer while holding her down without someone seeing it,or hearing her screams.

I have seen lapdances,where the girl is standing in the chair,with her kitty inches from the guys face,and he grabs her hips and takes a lick.

Thats far from holding her down and inserting his tongue,but yes,i have seen that often,none of those times did i see the girl scream rape.
She got her money,ended the dance,and had the guy escorted out.


You should feel safe in the place you work.
i agree,and inside the walls of a strip club,the females are as protected as the crown jewels are.(most clubs,all the ones i have ever remained at were)
But the danger to entertainers come in many forms,we can only protect against the physical ones,like rape.

Whens the last time you have heard of a dancer being raped in your club??

Im asking a shitload of dancers on this board that question,from all over the world.
Whens the last time a dancer was raped in YOUR club??
Have you ever heard of a dancer being raped in your club???

anyone???

Now how many of you have ever said
"he is a great custie,he spends alot of money,but sometimes he tends to be grabby and has to be reminded often"

By many on this forums deff of rape,that "great custie"isnt "great custie"no more,he is Rapist.

I say he isnt.

Guess that makes me an asshole.

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 03:14 PM
We're making friends today aren't we? There's never been a dancer raped at my club, but it's impossible at my club since there are no lap dances or vip rooms.

I don't know why I'm bothering replying actually 'cause it doesn't seem like you read anyone else's posts. You're just to consumed with getting your point across.

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 03:17 PM
As far as boob/ass/cookie grabbing or licking or all that nonsense, if the girl tells him to knock it off it's on him if he chooses to ignore her. He isn't five years old. I see no reason to have to be told 19 times not to bite the nipple.
I dont either.
I also dont see the need to toss him in jail,brand him as a rapist,and have him on the sexual offenders list for the rest of his life.

I dont think its rape.

I think he should be removed after the 2nd "No"

If you agree with some that this IS rape,then you should agree with the penalties for rape being tossed on this guy.

You cant call it rape,then not form up a possee to deal out the penalty for what the crime of rape demands.

If you dont,then you either condone it,or you dont think its rape in the first place IMO.
(not you madcap,men in general)

Madcap
06-29-2005, 03:24 PM
I dont either.
I also dont see the need to toss him in jail,brand him as a rapist,and have him on the sexual offenders list for the rest of his life.

I dont think its rape.

Well, there's a difference between something like that and the guy grabbing the chick by the hips, overpowering here, and grinding his mouth into her coochie. I KNOW something like THAT is over any line no, matter how lax said line may be.

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 03:31 PM
We're making friends today aren't we? There's never been a dancer raped at my club, but it's impossible at my club since there are no lap dances or vip rooms.
Im not here to make friends,ask anyone.
Im here to pay back old friends.
If i happen to make a few friends,kewl beans,but have no doubt,they will know exactly what thier new friends opinions are,no holds barred.
Some people like honest and open regardless,some dont.
being that your club,as many are,has no VIP or lapdance room,I take it your response is a no.
Thank you for your input.


I don't know why I'm bothering replying actually 'cause it doesn't seem like you read anyone else's posts. You're just to consumed with getting your point across.
Im not sure why you bother either???
Most of your post are insulting and full of drama filled hooks on this thread and have little or nothing to do with the topic from what i have seen.
The discussion is missing your opinions,sure wish you would add them and forgo the rest of the drama.
Add to the discussion,your opinions matter,the drama doesnt.

BTW,I read every post on this thread,many, more then once.

Lysondra
06-29-2005, 03:33 PM
Obviously you didn't read them because I asked you nicely to please refrain from replying to this thread as it is creating more drama.

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 03:39 PM
Ignore the ugly thing and maybe it will go away. Oops, I was being a drama queen wasn't I?

dlabtot
06-29-2005, 03:45 PM
Obviously you didn't read them because I asked you nicely to please refrain from replying to this thread as it is creating more drama.

Maybe the problem is that you said 'please'... when someone is not showing respect (and he is showing no respect for what you went through) they probably don't know how to respond appropriately when treated with respect.

showgirlschloe
06-29-2005, 03:47 PM
Back on the topic, Lillith, how are you doing today? Have you gone to any self defense classes yet?

BigGreenMnM
06-29-2005, 03:48 PM
yea you were,but im done anyways.

You also said this Lilith
I love the direction this thread is going, it shows people have different opinions and it tells me what I really should be thinking to myself should this situation present itself to me again.

Peace out.