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Niceguy
08-10-2005, 04:09 PM
We've had Sam's for awhile. Unfortunately, the Sam's site Walmart choose was too small to put in the Sam's automatic gas station. However the Jewell/Albertsons, Meijr grocery
now have gas stations.

Melonie
08-12-2005, 03:22 PM
California 'boutique additive' gas is now over $3.00 per gallon ... this price differential versus most of the country is NOT simply the result of rising crude oil prices.


http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/GAS_PRICES.sff_FX102_20050811170504.jpg

big_daddy
08-12-2005, 06:59 PM
It's $2.55 right now here in Central Illinois. It really sucks the truck I have been driving gets 8 miles to the gallon. But I only drive a mile to work!

Niceguy
08-12-2005, 07:08 PM
BP (not always the lowest price) in North Central IL was $2.55 Wed August 10th. Today Friday night August 12th it is $2.65 for regular no lead.

Bob_Loblaw
08-12-2005, 08:11 PM
paying the equivalent of U$3.50 per gallon up here in Canada. I need to take out a loan to get out to the clubs.

kitana
08-13-2005, 06:28 AM
Damn! I tought I had it rough, back when this thread started I was paying around $2.01 a gallon for regular.

Last night when I filled up it was $2.38 a gallon. I seriously think I'm going to have to learn how to ride my motorcycle!!!! ;)

It gets around 50mpg. And only takes 3 gallons to fill. I could spend $15 a week to get to work and back. Until winter anyway, we have too much unstable weather, and basically it's TOO DAMN COLD!!!!!

But I did stop driving my truck. It only gets 10mpg, while the car gets around 27mpg. That and the car only cost me $25 to fill, while the truck w/it's duel tanks costs around $80 to completly fill (both tanks).

Somethings gotta give soon. We need to hog tie the tree loving hippies, and start drilling right off our own damn shores and up in Alaska.

Maybe it would go down a little?

Melonie
08-13-2005, 09:14 AM
Somethings gotta give soon. We need to hog tie the tree loving hippies, and start drilling right off our own damn shores and up in Alaska.

Maybe it would go down a little?

Even if by some stroke of genius/insanity/'tendency toward national suicide' the environmental and other laws restricting new oil drilling off the US coasts and in Alaska were to be set aside, the reality is that it takes several years to explore for the 'best' well sites and to install the equipment necessary to start pumping crude oil. Even in the best 'previously explored' area of the ANWR, it would still take at least 2 years to pump the first barrel of crude.

Then the next problem kicks in ... how to transport that crude to the lower 48. Now we're talking about building pipelines, port facilities at both 'ends', extra supertankers etc. Even if environmental and zoning regulation obstacles were to be swept aside, these things take years to build as well.

And then we get to perhaps the biggest problem of all - you can't burn crude oil in a car engine, home furnace, or power plant - it needs to be refined. Currently, the US hasn't built a new refinery in something like 25 years and existing refineries are running at 95% capacity. So to actually increase the supply of gasoline and diesel/heating oil, new refineries have to be built.

Putting this altogether you're talking about hundreds of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure investment, and several years worth of planning and construction work, before the first gallon of 'new' gasoline hits the market. Even if this were to happen as quickly as possible (which it won't because of environmental resistance, local political meddling, litigation etc.), additional supply of oil and petroleum products from US sources will not be a significant factor in the supply vs. demand equation for the next few years.

Where that leaves us is in a position of near total dependency on foreign sources of oil with existing pumping, shipping and refining facilities - which means that every wave of middle east instability, every competing purchase of foreign oil by China, every coup or civil war in oil producing African or south American countries, will reduce US imported oil supply and will raise prices of oil products.

IMHO we're headed on a one way trip to $5.00 per gallon gasoline, a price which is actually encouraged by various college professors and 'liberal' gov't officials. At $5.00 per gallon, a host of alternative technologies begin to become cost effective without subsidies. However it remains to be seen what $5.00 per gallon prices will do to America's suburban commuter culture. It also remains to be seen how much of the 'profits' from those alternative technologies will benefit Americans, versus how much will contribute to the outsourcing of yet more US jobs and an aggravated trade deficit.

Of course, there is a totally different way to quickly lower the price of oil products too ... a worldwide recession/depression. Bankrupt companies do not have to buy oil/gas generated electricity to power manufacturing facilities, do not have to put diesel in delivery trucks, etc. Unemployed workers do not have to put gas in their SUV's to commute to work. Airlines do not have to put jet fuel in planes when flights are cut due to lack of business travelers and vacationers. This phenomenon took the price of crude oil down to $25 per barrel in 2001, and the same thing could happen again at any time.

kitana
08-13-2005, 09:36 AM
^^ Oh, I know it wouldn't happen I just wish there was a quick fix to help some of us our a little more. It's starting to hurt business a little. :(

The guys are looking at dance prices, and thinking "I could fill up the tank for that, why should I buy another one."

It's really driving me nuts,lol.

*Nevermind me; I'm just venting.*

Melonie
08-13-2005, 09:53 AM
The guys are looking at dance prices, and thinking "I could fill up the tank for that, why should I buy another one." It's really driving me nuts,lol. *Nevermind me; I'm just venting.

Well, this was exactly my point when I concluded that dancers are a 'luxury item' in joe sixpack's weekly budget. Rising gas prices are definitely going to hurt 'middle of the road' clubs. However, it's unlikely that rising gas prices are going hurt top shelf 'show club' earnings potential, because the customer base is typically 'rich' enough that spending an extra $40 on dances versus filling the tank isn't even a consideration.

Some economists/politicians look at higher gasoline prices as a form of 'regressive taxation'. The lower a person's income, the more significant the impact of rising gas prices is on their weekly budget. The same economists/politicians also look at higher gasoline prices as a form of 'suburban' tax, which has a much higher impact in suburban areas than metropolitan areas because suburban residents must commute while metro city dwellers have mass transportation options.

kitana
08-13-2005, 10:00 AM
Well I wish I were "blessed" enough to work at an upscale show club, but I'm not so I guess that's why I'm complaining so much,lol.

former_LV_dancer
08-13-2005, 04:35 PM
Some stations here in New York City are now charging over $3.00....one by the Brooklyn Bridge is up to $3.20 reg. unleaded.....:O

XoStellaOx
08-13-2005, 04:52 PM
that is crazy what happened to the days it was 1.50/gal

The_Oceans
08-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Apples and oranges, comparing prices in the UK to the US, I know...but when heading out for the evening tonight, I noticed that the petrol station on the highway heading out of my town was at £0.929/litre...which translates to $1.69/litre, or $7.68/gallon.

Point being? There has got to be a point at which one looks at the vehicle they drive, where they drive it, and how much they pay to fuel it, and realize, "Holy $£*t, there's no way I can afford this anymore!", then make changes to one or all of the above to make it manageable. Yes, I understand there's freedom of choice, personal expression, and all that...but come on, do you really *need* that Escalade to make the school run, or the Lamborghini for the daily commute?

CrescentLuna
08-14-2005, 12:26 AM
$2.49/gal reg. in Binghamton, a little higher in Syracuse [roughly $2.55]. The BF is definite that we'll get a hybrid for the next car - okay by me if we have a definite income to pay it off with. Public transport and biking are going to work for the regular job and school, dancing I'll still have to commute for.

Niceguy
08-14-2005, 08:45 AM
AP ran a newspaper story this weekend which is a "weekend feature" to run on Sunday or Monday when there is not much real news, on plugging your hybrid in at night and getting the equivilent of 80 mpg. Note however if you do this it voids both your Toyota or Honda warranty. Toyota and Honda need to add the recharge socket and more batteries at the factory as an option, nogt an aer market conversion that voids the warranty.
See my note above dated July 22. Always happy to scoop the regular news media by three weeks.

Melonie
08-14-2005, 12:09 PM
AP ran a newspaper story this weekend which is a "weekend feature" to run on Sunday or Monday when there is not much real news, on plugging your hybrid in at night and getting the equivilent of 80 mpg

I saw this story as well, but was hesitant to post about it in Dollar Den because the 'political' aspect is as large as the 'financial' aspect. I would only point out that the recharging of hybrid vehicle batteries from the electric grid is not without its own costs (utility bill), energy consumption and environmental impact (coal/oil/gas fired power plant fuel consumption and emissions). Recharging a hybrid vehicle from the electric grid also (for the moment) bypasses road taxes assessed through gasoline purchases, a situation which is already being researched by states in regard to alternate means of charging appropriate road tax to hybrid vehicle owners.

Also, vastly increasing the battery capacity of a hybrid vehicle to make 80mpg short trip driving possible also involves major up-front additional battery costs and much higher future battery replacement costs from a financial standpoint. Greatly increased demand for batteries also brings into focus the need to manufacture with and eventually dispose of 'heavy metals' i.e. lead, cadmium, nickel, which will undoubtedly become a financial issue for people buying and disposing of batteries when the volumes involved become worrysome.

I know that many won't agree with my opinion, but IMHO the economic viability of hybrid vehicles is entirely contingent on US tax subsidies to hybrid vehicle buyers (which all US citizens' income tax pays for indirectly), Japanese gov't subsidies to Japanese hybrid vehicle makers, avoided road tax assessment, and ignoring the actual costs of battery replacement and disposal which will rear their ugly heads 5 years down the road.

Pamela
08-14-2005, 12:19 PM
South A1A in Brevard today i saw $2.67 which was pretty high around here it seemed......It's a climbing!!!!! And that sucks, because my car sucks gas.

Pamela

kitana
08-14-2005, 07:49 PM
I saw this story as well, but was hesitant to post about it in Dollar Den because the 'political' aspect is as large as the 'financial' aspect. I would only point out that the recharging of hybrid vehicle batteries from the electric grid is not without its own costs (utility bill), energy consumption and environmental impact (coal/oil/gas fired power plant fuel consumption and emissions). Recharging a hybrid vehicle from the electric grid also (for the moment) bypasses road taxes assessed through gasoline purchases, a situation which is already being researched by states in regard to alternate means of charging appropriate road tax to hybrid vehicle owners.

I was thinking the same thing myself.

I looked at one of these "hybrid" cars before and all I could think of was "This really isn't helping anything is it?"

I mean it doen't run on as much gas, but you will use me electricity, which in turn uses more coal which really won't help the environment that much will it?!

I think we sould all have VW bugs. And not the newfangled POS "what they are calling a bug" either. I mean the old bugs you could by for about $0.50 bramd new back in the day. I love those cars. And talk about gas milage!

Anyway, gas is still the same here, around $2.35-$2.40 for reg.

Hello_Kitty27
08-14-2005, 08:25 PM
$2.87 just outside of downtown chicago for regular. In the burbs where I work, it's $2.80! It's not fun when you commute 30 miles to work and 30 miles back! I spend about $150-170 a month in gas! And I drive a little Saturn! I no longer regret trading in the Z28 for a Saturn..... :O Never thought I'd say that!

Emily
08-14-2005, 08:28 PM
speaking of VW, nobody has really talked about their TDIs (diesels), which get great mileage

or maybe they have....this thread has gotten long.

Melonie
08-15-2005, 03:31 AM
Again I'm a bit reluctant to widen the Dollar Den discussion to include Diesels, because like hybrids at least half of the topic is political not financial. For a fact there are some small diesel engine cars being sold in America - most notably by Volkswagen. These cars get around 50mpg, are extremely reliable, and IMHO are a much better alternative than hybrids for someone looking to buy a vehicle with an extremely low overall long term operating cost per mile per year.

In reality, there are diesel versions of many other cars which are sold in other countries but which are not legal for sale in America (i.e. only the gasoline engine version of the car is sold in America). This fact vastly narrows the choices for a would-be diesel car buyer in America, and has served to put a major damper on the proliferation of diesel powered cars in general in the USA.

Emily
08-15-2005, 08:41 AM
true, once again Europeans are ahead of us, but they have had to deal with the high price of fuel for longer. It's true that they are mostly Volkswagen, but maybe that will change. With diesel engines getting better mileage and diesel fuel costing less, and the cars themselves not costing that much more (the TDI 1.9L Beetle actually costs less than the 1.8L gas model)

Crissychan
08-15-2005, 02:46 PM
Dallas today: $2.71 Unleaded Regular

Melonie
08-15-2005, 03:06 PM
Emily, the Europeans or the Japanese really aren't ahead of us in diesel engine technology. In the USA it's perfectly legal to sell a truck with a 400+hp diesel engine that belches hydrocarbons, NOx, CO etc. up the exhaust pipe, but to legally sell a diesel engine in a car a much tighter set of emissions limits apply - including the "non-polluting" but highly publicized greenhouse gas CO2. These 'car' emissions standards are tighter than those in other parts of the world, which is the reason that you can buy a Diesel Honda or a Diesel Ford Focus (Mondeo actually) in the UK but not in the USA. While most major auto manufacturers have very efficient diesel engine designs, pretty much only Volkswagen's highly turbocharged design was immediately saleable in the USA under existing car emissions standards. The other major auto makers will undoubtedly 'tweak' their diesel designs, and IMHO by the 2007 model year you'll see lots more diesel car options legal for sale in the USA. However, the 'affordability' of these redesigned 2007 diesels might be questionable, because US car emissions standards (well, 40% of US cars) were recently tightened again ...

hannah83
08-15-2005, 03:41 PM
i paid $1.79/gallon today. But the lowest I saw was for $1.62 right down the road.

Bridgette
08-15-2005, 04:22 PM
Well. I just returned from a weekend road trip to Vegas, and we wound up going through Needles, AZ on the way home last night. Fortunately we didn't need gas there, because the price was $3.1999!! Friggin $3.20/gallon!!!!!

Sapphire
08-16-2005, 11:41 AM
We're at 2.66 as of yesterday. But since the price has jumped 20 cents in the past week who knows........

hardkandee
08-16-2005, 11:49 AM
Well. I just returned from a weekend road trip to Vegas, and we wound up going through Needles, AZ on the way home last night. Fortunately we didn't need gas there, because the price was $3.1999!! Friggin $3.20/gallon!!!!!


Good god!
I'm glad I chose to buy tickets to fly into Vegas! By the time my trip comes along, we'll be up to $4.00!!

Deni
08-16-2005, 11:53 AM
My dad filled up for me (yes, I realize I sound like a brat- get past that, though!) on Friday, and gas was $2.39. The next day Mox went to fill up, and it had gone up to $2.49. The last I checked (last night), it's still the same- I'm sure it's gonna go up some more, though. Time to dig my bike out of the storage closet!

Emily
08-16-2005, 01:17 PM
speaking of travel....book now. I put a deposit on a cruise and for those of us who didn't pay in full, they added a fuel surcharge to the fare.

waaaaaah

Amethyst
08-16-2005, 01:19 PM
Gas was 2.99 for unleaded in Houston over the weekend. In SAT, it's 2.55 for unleaded.

I heard today that gas prices aren't going down anytime soon. Bummer. Praise Jeebus I drive an economical car.

Here's some gas-saving tips:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/drive.shtml

I'll have the hardest time with the "don't speed" tip. I feel like I'm barely moving if I go less than 80 on the highway!!

Deni
08-16-2005, 01:25 PM
Gas was 2.99 for unleaded in Houston over the weekend. In SAT, it's 2.55 for unleaded.

I heard today that gas prices aren't going down anytime soon. Bummer. Praise Jeebus I drive an economical car.

I thought they said Dallas had the highest average price for gas? Wow! $2.99- that's crazy! I can remember when I was saying, "Wow, gas hit $2.00 yesterday!" I agree with you on the economical car thing- I don't know what I'd do if I owned a gas burning car!

Niceguy
08-16-2005, 02:59 PM
In NW Illinois I just saw BP for 2.89 reg unleaded. I paid 2.69 for unleaded reg

at jewell/albertsons.

I buess $2.69 is a good deal by comparison.

WiseGuy_TX
08-16-2005, 03:21 PM
Its almost starting to remind me of the mid 70's when there were long gas lines at stations. I remember gas going from 54 cents to $1.35 in about 6 months if memory serves me. That is when cars got 12 miles a gallon on the average. License plates ending in odd numbers got to fill up on odd numbered days of the month and the same for even numbered plates.

These higher fuel costs will start to ripple up the cost of most everything (including laps?...hehehe)

FBR
08-16-2005, 03:54 PM
I paid $2.79 per gallon today for premium. At an average of 15 mpg that really sucks.

In followup to what Melonie stated earlier in the thread, heres an article I read in Car and Driver regarding hybrids. Setting aside the feel good aspect, I think cylinder-deactivation technology and ever improving diesel engines make more sense in the long run.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9844

FBR

montythegeek
08-16-2005, 07:44 PM
While Mr. Yates is a highly respected auto journalist, I do not know if he may be exagerating a tad so I will shade things on the conservative side. If a non-hybrid got 30 miles per gallon at $2.80 per gallon the replacement cost of a battery for a Toyota hybrid would pay 100% of the vehicles gas bill for almost 56,800 miles.

First repsonders may be tempted to watch a hybrid burn up rather than risk their life to save it--not because they are inherently gross dangers, but because each manufacturer has its own distinct way of connecting and disconneting the high-voltage lines.. I am sure the first responders have all these disparate systems committed to memory as well as the safety precautions----NOT! I would let someone elses car burn up before I risked by life to save a vehicle. Are insurance companies going to subsidize these technologies for the hell of it? NADA. The premiums are going to be higher for the risk of catastrophe.

Buy a really good mileage conventional car and put the savings in CD's to pay for the gasoline.

PS I think we ought to start a bargain gas thread to complement the horror stories. I filled up my girlfriends car Sunday with premium at $2.59 a gallon when the station down the street wanted $0.10 more than that for regular.

To be fair the station owners paniced at the thought of having to replace their gas Monday at $.10/gallon more than Friday when gasoline on the NYMEX (New York mercantile exchange shot above $2.00 a gallon in NY harbor from $1.85 a few days earlier. Nymex gasolone (no taxes incl, no delivery and no dealer cost) havee backed off 2 cents/gallon since then and are running at a refiners margin iver crude twice normal. It is possible that the Weekly petroleum status report could cause prices to sing a dime either way based on the inventory data. If anyone is bored at 10:30 am EDST Wed/8/17 go to the DOE web site and look at gasoline inventory change or just watch the price jerk around like a yoyo on the NYMEX.

VenusGoddess
08-16-2005, 07:51 PM
I paid $2.79 per gallon today for premium. At an average of 15 mpg that really sucks.

Must be nice. I just put $20.00 worth of gas in my car today and it gave me 1/2 a tank...I get the mid-grade fuel. Gas here is now $3.00/gallon (outside the city)...in the city it's about $3.50/gallon. There was also a news report that the city will make $65 million MORE than they expected due to the gas price hike...which gives them more money per gallon.

Greedy rotten bastards. ;)

On the plus side, though, I'm strapping Makayla onto the bike and doing more riding...so...

Melonie
08-17-2005, 11:27 AM
While Mr. Yates is a highly respected auto journalist, I do not know if he may be exagerating a tad so I will shade things on the conservative side. If a non-hybrid got 30 miles per gallon at $2.80 per gallon the replacement cost of a battery for a Toyota hybrid would pay 100% of the vehicles gas bill for almost 56,800 miles.

This is exactly my point about the financial risk of ignoring the battery replacement cost component of hybrid vehicles. Your estimate is also based on present cost of batteries, and ignores any future 'environmental' costs which may be embedded in future battery purchase cost or dead battery disposal cost once the annual volume of batteries being manufactured and disposed of greatly increases. Your estimate is also based on a 'normal' battery capacity, not the 3-5 times larger battery capacity needed to do overnight charging off the electric grid with 80mpg hybrid fuel economy (using stored electric grid energy). Once these true battery costs become well known, it will effectively kill the resale value of all hybrid vehicles, and will also effectively guarantee that hybrid vehicles that have 'outlived' the manufacturer's warrantee will wind up on the scrap heap (based on the logic that nobody in their right mind is going to risk having to invest $5,000+ to replace batteries in a vehicle that is 8 years old or has 100,000 miles on it, on top of other repair costs associated with vehicle of this age and mileage)

I had also not contemplated the new wrinkles regarding emergency responders and future insurance rates for electric/hybrid vehicles. For a fact the battery bank in a hybrid is capable of providing a lethal jolt of high voltage DC. Also, if a major short circuit should occur in the battery wiring during a hybrid vehicle accident, it's entirely possible for batteries to start fires or explode (plus potentially spewing acid electrolyte all over the place). I am sure that once a few initial incidents wind up being reported, and major vehicle loss and liability costs wind up being 'eaten' by the insurance companies underwriting the hybrid vehicles, that a new 'assigned risk' category will undoubtedly be created for hybrid vehicles to balance the increased insurance company risk against appropriately high premiums charged to hybrid vehicle owners (rather than being absorbed/subsidized by normal vehicle owners' insurance premiums increasing, as is currently the case).

PS that Brock Yates Car and Driver article about Hybrids should be mandatory reading for every politician and potehtial car buyer !

Melonie
08-17-2005, 11:36 AM
There was also a news report that the city will make $65 million MORE than they expected due to the gas price hike...which gives them more money per gallon.

Greedy rotten bastards

Yup, a windfall for states that charge road tax on the basis of a PERCENTAGE of gasoline sales cost, versus X cents per gallon. This will be yet one more motivator for states to re-evaluate their methods of assessing road tax ... eventually leading to some high tech system of tracking where (and when) and on which particular roads a particular vehicle was driven to accurately assess road tax regardless of a particular vehicle's gasoline/diesel consumption. This is already well along in development in European countries, and a number of US states are currently researching alternatives to the old gasoline/diesel based road tax assessment scheme as well. When this happens it will remove one more 'subsidy' hybrid vehicle owners are currently enjoying at the expense of conventional vehicle owners.



I think cylinder-deactivation technology and ever improving diesel engines make more sense in the long run

I would agree that higher tech engine controls plus diesel engine improvements are the most economical overall answer in the medium term ... with one potential stumbling block, CO2 (greenhouse gas) emission regulations. No matter how chemical pollutant-free the engine designers are able to make diesel engines (I'm talking about real pollutants like NOX, CO, hydrocarbons), for a fact the efficient burning of any hydrocarbon fuel produces CO2 as a natural byproduct and diesels produce a lot of it. This is precisely the reason that you can buy a Diesel Ford Focus in the UK but not in the USA ! Depending on how govt's treat future CO2 emissions standards for cars, the real future of Diesel in the USA is sort of up in the air versus the 'coerced' development of Hydrogen fueled engines (no hydrocarbon in the fuel, no CO2 in the exhaust).

However, if I was looking to buy a new vehicle with the lowest possible overall purchase and operating cost per mile, I'd be taking an extremely hard look at those small cars which ARE available with Diesel engines in the USA right now (i.e. Volkswagen). As I'm sure that I'm not alone in thoughts along these lines, picking up some shares of VW stock as an investment might not be a bad idea either ! Unlike Honda and Toyota and their 'break even' hybrid profit margins, VW is actually able to turn a decent profit on Diesel Jettas.

FBR
08-17-2005, 04:32 PM
However, if I was looking to buy a new vehicle with the lowest possible overall purchase and operating cost per mile, I'd be taking an extremely hard look at those small cars which ARE available with Diesel engines in the USA right now (i.e. Volkswagen). As I'm sure that I'm not alone in thoughts along these lines, picking up some shares of VW stock as an investment might not be a bad idea either ! Unlike Honda and Toyota and their 'break even' hybrid profit margins, VW is actually able to turn a decent profit on Diesel Jettas.

I'm emotionally attached to the excessive, politically incorrect vehicles I lease every two years. At this point in my life, I cant see myself driving a cramped, underpowered, tree-hugging mini-vehicle. I realize as time goes on I will pay more and more of a premium for my ego. OTOH I have faith (admittedly perhaps blind) that US auto companies will continue to eke every MPG they can out of internal combustion engines. I read in either Motor Trend or Car and Driver that Cadillac will be supplying cylinder-deactivation in the '07 Escalade 6.0 liter engine resulting in an approximate 20% increase in mileage. That would bump me up to around 18 in town and 22 on the highway. I can live with that...at least at todays prices.

FBR

montythegeek
08-18-2005, 10:11 AM
It is possible that the Weekly petroleum status report could cause prices to sing a dime either way based on the inventory data
Damn I missed by a penny. It dropped nine cents/gallon on NYMEX Wednesday.

GnBeret
08-20-2005, 02:13 AM
"... versus the 'coerced' development of Hydrogen fueled engines...."

Ya can't have it both ways, ya know? Without the "coerced development" of more fuel efficient gas and diesel engines via the CAFE standards, many, if not most of the improvements that have been made in engine design and efficiency over the course of the past 25 years would not have been made. Corporations, by law, have but one purpose: to make money for their shareholders. Left to their own devices, i.e., absent the "guiding hand" you refer to as being "coerced" into proceeding in certain socially desireable directions, corporations are largely incapable of making the kinds of leaps in technology we periodically find ourselves in need of as the market simply will not support the kind of sustained investment required for a corporation to stay afloat while trying to make the shift.

Take a look at the dramatic improvements made by the auto manufacturers when they were being seriously "coerced" via the CAFE standards vs. the all but negligible improvements made since the government backed off of instituting what was supposed to be the next round of same. Another good example is the quantum leap in technology that's been achieved over the past 7-10 years in small engine design (i.e., outboard boat motors, lawn mowers, etc.), none of which would have been achieved without the "coerced development" of small size 4-stroke motors, via the emission standards being set at levels virtually impossible to achieve with 2-stroke motors. Without some form of "coerced development," it'll be forever and a day before you see GM and Ford voluntarily make the kinds of massive capital investments they're going to have to make to turn the fuel cell concept into reality.

Melonie
08-20-2005, 03:32 AM
not to be facetious, but what does hydrogen fuel have to do with efficiency ? IMHO it is the ultimate NIMBY technology ... extremely clean and efficient at the point of use (which mainly benefits large cities in California and the Northeast), but notoriously inefficient in the upstream part of the process i.e. using cheap coal fired electricity to strip hydrogen from natural gas.

Melonie
08-20-2005, 07:46 AM
By the time we reach the point of mass production/distribution of hydrogen, won't be using coal-fired anything anymore - will be firing virtually everything "fixed" or non-mobile with natural gas.

Again not meaning to be facetious, and trying to avoid getting political in Dollar Den, but for a fact North America is rapidly depleting its reserves of natural gas. Every new power plant built in the last few years has been natural gas fired. The price of natural gas at the wellhead has more than doubled. Oil/energy companies are trying to import additional supplies of natural gas in liquified form from the middle east and elsewhere, but so far have been meeting stiff resistance in regard to building new LNG port facilities. In other words, right now natural gas is in rather short supply in North America.

Hydrogen fueled vehicle proponents then include as an embedded part of their plan a vast new application for natural gas as the 'raw material' to produce vast quantities of hydrogen for vehicle fuel ... on top of proposing that the large amounts of electricity needed to strip hydrogen from natural gas must come from new natural gas fueled power plants ? If there is in fact enough natural gas available in North America to serve this new market (which is doubtful), the total amount of energy input needed to produce X cubic feet of hydrogen is going to wind up costing the equivalent of $10 per gallon of gasoline (in terms of total energy cost vs total miles driven).

PhaedrusZ
08-20-2005, 11:54 AM
For a solid analysis of why we will not be converting to a "hydrogen economy" in the near future, try this link from "Popular Science" magazine

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html


PhaedrusZ

Niceguy
08-20-2005, 01:44 PM
I'm the hybrid man not the hydrogen man. Reasons for hybrid. Ready to go today. Just see your Honda or toyota dealer with green.

Reasons against liquid hydrogen. Takes too much electricity to conver hydrogen to
liquid form.

When you've developed a functioning fusion (not fission) atomic power plant.. see me
and I'll change my mind.

GnBeret
08-20-2005, 02:45 PM
Again not meaning to be facetious, and trying to avoid getting political in Dollar Den, but for a fact North America is rapidly depleting its reserves of natural gas. Every new power plant built in the last few years has been natural gas fired. The price of natural gas at the wellhead has more than doubled. Oil/energy companies are trying to import additional supplies of natural gas in liquified form from the middle east and elsewhere, but so far have been meeting stiff resistance in regard to building new LNG port facilities. In other words, right now natural gas is in rather short supply in North America.

Hydrogen fueled vehicle proponents then include as an embedded part of their plan a vast new application for natural gas as the 'raw material' to produce vast quantities of hydrogen for vehicle fuel ... on top of proposing that the large amounts of electricity needed to strip hydrogen from natural gas must come from new natural gas fueled power plants ? If there is in fact enough natural gas available in North America to serve this new market (which is doubtful), the total amount of energy input needed to produce X cubic feet of hydrogen is going to wind up costing the equivalent of $10 per gallon of gasoline (in terms of total energy cost vs total miles driven).

Not THAT much but, yes, is going to be more expensive. However, again... what are our choices? If you think we're short of natural gas in North America, take a look at crude oil!!! As for the natural gas supply, you've correctly stated the problem, i.e., "... right now natural gas is in rather short supply in North America...," with the emphasis being on "right now." Look back to 2001 - 2002. NG was at $2/mcf, and had been for awhile. To make a long story short, WE BASICALLY CEASED ALL EXPLORATION ACTIVITIES FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF SEVERAL YEARS. And, while we're pretty much using every available rig in the country right now (and actually building more - first time has happened in industry since crash in early 80's!), takes a long time to catch back up, especially when you're trying to do so in a decent economy while maintaining conversion program too. Over the long haul (10+ years), however, we will not be able to keep up with demand via our own fields - hence the long "head-start" on the LNG facilities, i.e., ChevronTexaco, et al., are actually fairly well versed in "how the game is played" and have built in more than enough lead-time to endure the challenges, etc. and still get everything on-line in plenty of time. In this regard, note that construction of the infrastructure commenced several years ago and, although the lawyers and lobbyists are clearly going to have to do a lot of work on their side of the equation it will only be in Court and Congress as they quietly managed to get the Corps on-board before the game went public... and in the meantime, construction of the infrastructure not only hasn't, but won't be scaled back to "wait for outcome" as things being contested either won't change basic design or are "add-ons" that can be built on fairly short order down the line if such should become necessary.

Trust me - the lessons to be learned from the extensive and prolonged period of environmental litigation that followed enactment of the CWA, CAA, etc., were not lost on the Energy Industry, and they're starting this fight in a Hell of lot better position than they were in when the last go-round began. Of course, having Reagan and the Bushes load the Federal Judiciary with Republican Judges (current composition is about %70 or so) in the interim ain't exactly gonna hurt either, ya know?::)

RedZ28
08-23-2005, 07:13 PM
You could always visit http://www.gasbuddy.com
Happy hunting.

Niceguy
08-24-2005, 08:17 AM
Beware the unanticipated event. 9/11 was such an unanticipated event. Who in NYC
or the US could imagine 19 men stealing four airplanes and flying them into the
second tallest buildings in the world?

Here is another unanticipated event.. this time political. Pat Robertsons call yesterday
on the 700 club for US special operations to assinated the President of Venezula.

He may indeed be ight. Get the guy. For a church minister to publically announce this on
a TV show on God is what gets me. Not a smart move.

The number two exporters of oil to the US is (guess what?) Venezula. They should
stop selling the US oil. After all they can sell alot of what they produce to China.

If this occurs we are on the way to $4.00 per gal. gas. That is what I mean about "Beware the unanticipated random event." There isn't much slack in the oil supply system right now.

The only thing that might save us from a Venezulian (sp?) boycott is another weird
fact that. About five years ago Venzulua (sp?) bought the Citgo gas station chain.

They would be cutting out their own investment in the facilities, piplines, real estate,
and cash flow from their own chain of gas stations.

Maybe thats what the old slogan meant. "There are three sides to the Citgo Triangle."

Melonie
08-24-2005, 02:47 PM
I don't want to get political in Dollar Den, but for a fact the Chinese are desparate to lock up future sources of oil. For a fact Venezuela is a major source of imported oil to the USA. And for a fact Chavez has much more in common with Fidel Castro and Chinese Communists than he does with any democratic nation.

You are correct that the permanent loss of some 40% of current US oil imports due to Chavez cutting a 'better deal' with China and shutting off exports to the USA would absolutely depress the US economy. This sort of reduction in available supply would quickly lead to actual shortages of oil and refined products regardless of the price Americans were willing to pay. This sort of reduction in supply would very well lead to rationing of gasoline, heating oil etc. at a likely price in the $5 per gallon vicinity. Secondary effects would also include huge increases in shipping costs affecting the retail price of every single item sold in America, a major scramble to sell outlying suburban property as there will be insufficient gas rationed to individuals to fuel a 50+ mile daily commute in an SUV, a mad rush to Volkswagen, Honda, Kia dealers ...

Thus the threat of Venezuelan oil exports to the USA being cut off have exactly the same gloom and doom potential as having Saudi oil exports to the USA cut off. And even if every environmental law was thrown overboard, such that offshore drilling on both coasts, ANWR drilling, new LNG and oil tanker terminals, new refineries, and a host of other plans were set in motion to increase domestic oil supplies, the time lag from start to finish would be several years at best. In the meantime, a 1930's-esque depression would undoubtedly develop, with widespread bankruptcies, widespread unemployment, widespread crime etc.

so yeah IMHO Pat Robertson had the courage to point out America's vulnerability to Chavez cutting a deal with the Chinese, and to suggest that we 'take him out' as a much more acceptable alternative than eventually invading Argentina or letting the US economy endure another 1930's-esque depression.