View Full Version : Philosophical Discussion - split from OTC thread
Jenny
07-11-2005, 06:07 PM
understandable, but my overall point still stands.
No. No it doesn't. Your original point - what even was your original point? That girls in clubs can be bitches? Skanks? Something like that, right? Look, sweetie, you need to work on your listening skills. Or, actually, since you are not actually listening, maybe you need to work on your literacy?
it's no walk in the park for customers to deal with strippers on this site or in the club.
Again - never said it was, has nothing to do with my point which a deconstructive reading answering a question about why girls come here and tell you all how unattractive we find you as customers. In fact, I think the question reveals it as a given that we are not a walk in the park to deal on this site, and the club has nothing to do with it.
yeah, it's no joke because you use stripping to pay your bills, feed your kids..blah, blah, blah. big deal..take a number and get in line..in case you didn't know, the rest of the world works as well and have their own problems and it's no joking matter either.
I know. And you might not like it so much if it was someone else hobby to fuck with your work. I'm not saying that there are no "straight" jobs where it happens - I'm saying that people tend to get sore about it, and perhaps justifiably so. Could you imagine Derek going up to a waitress "You want me to order? I want u to cum to my condo and go 2 bed with me..."?
it almost sounds sounds as if you expect pity or sympathy simply for being a stripper. which is fine...on SW, but i don't give out automatic passes down here simply because you wear six-inch platforms.
Dude, this is the last place I would come for sympathy of any kind. None of you even know me. This is where I come to have people tell me I'm funny and not try to touch me.
you'll have to come up with a more compelling reason. Well, my dog is really sick and has to go to the vet and I really can't afford the bill.... oh, and my wisdom teeth are coming in and my dental coverage at my day job hasn't kicked in....
Anything?
Anything?
how would you know? you're not a customer. you ladies are always talking about how a customer doesn't know what you are going through since he isn't a stripper...fair enough.
You have this very male way of directing coversation. You attribute a generalized point that someone might have said somewhere to a specific conversation then demand that the other person defend it. Have you noticed that? I think that a lot of the time the customers have a pretty good idea what we go through. I think you guys in particular have been superlatively educated on the subject. However, one doesn't need to be in both sides of a relationship (or any side) to see particular patterns of attempted domination. I'm not talking about the customer's private universe- or the stripper's - I'm talking about demonstrable conversational patterns.
case in point: gimmie a break..."annoyed in general", my ass..he said she was pissed. she tried to upsell him into buying a bill of goods and when he didn't bite. she didn't walk away..she stomped away like a sore loser...she didn't take it like a sport...she bad-mouthed him to the other girls. if a stripper regularly performs such antics after losing a sale. that's not business. that's taking things personal.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Is the like a grown up web version of pulling my hair? Is this your way of saying that you have a crush on me?
Then learn to read. I said she was probably not feeling his "temerity" at rejecting her, she was pissed because she thought she had $500.00 she didn't actually have. That can sometimes tick you off. Do I think this is a good way to act? Well, I wouldn't do it myself. Does it sound like the guy did anything in particular wrong (besides the general grossness of trying to get blown in the stripclub, which offends me on a purely aesthetic level)? No. She badmouthed to the rest of the girls? By saying what? That he wanted to get blown in the VIP? He did. That's not badmouthing him. By his own account, they already knew that anyway. And sometimes rejection does feel personal. We aren't selling scooters here. We are selling touch time on our bodies. It's a very specialized kind of service. Sometime our feelings get involved, just like yours. Well, yours in the general sense. I realize that inside, where most of us keep feelings you have flavoured lubricant and probably a speculum.
Its amazing how the back and forth can be strangely congenial. I think Punk and Jenny were lovers in a former life (does anyone have the DVD for sale?). I'm enjoying it. Kudos to you guys disagreeing on pretty much everything but keeping it civil ;D
FBR
xdamage
07-11-2005, 06:57 PM
Well, hell, if xdamage like pussy cats he cant be all bad ;D
We have two pussys at home, females. They both have stripper sounding names which...uh...I had nuttin to do with :P ;)
FBR
I dont know if I like cats in general, but this is my little buddy, and he has acted so grateful ever since moving in I couldn't help but keep him. I thought he was a stray. Skinny, fleas in his fur and eyes, but it turns out he had an owner who came knocking on the door one day when she saw him in my yard. What a neglectful bitch. But at least she had the good sense to see that he belonged with me and not with her. How people can treat an animal the way she did I can't fathom.
Tagging on to Jays post...
Im one of those nice guys alluded to. I treat the dancers with a modicum of respect...at leat the ones that reciprocate. I don't have a mission to fullful. I spend a few bucks (well, sometimes more than a few) and I have some nice T&A fun. If things get a little crazy and I benefit...cool. But if not, no biggie. You can't paint everyone with the same broad brush stroke.
FBR
mr_punk
07-11-2005, 07:01 PM
No. No it doesn't. Your original point - what even was your original point?it's in the response right below you.
I know. And you might not like it so much if it was someone else hobby to fuck with your work.my point is that everyone has problems, jenny. they may not have the same exact problems, but problems aren't unique just strippers. i don't think strippers deserve special consideration because they're strippers.
I'm not saying that there are no "straight" jobs where it happenswell, it sure sounds like it.
Dude, this is the last place I would come for sympathy of any kind. None of you even know me. This is where I come to have people tell me I'm funny and not try to touch me.thank you. i don't want strippers emoting all over me about the extraordinary hardship of being a stripper.
You have this very male way of directing coversation. You attribute a generalized point that someone might have said somewhere to a specific conversation then demand that the other person defend it. Have you noticed that?so, is that a yes or a no? seriously, if the shoe doesn't fit you personally, don't worry about it.
Then learn to read.jenny, you can use a hooked on phonics class yourself.
I said she was probably not feeling his "temerity" at rejecting her, she was pissed because she thought she had $500.00 she didn't actually have.i'm not talking about that..who wouldn't be pissed if they lost $500. however, you described her as being "annoyed in general" almost as if she had a mild case of indigestion.
That can sometimes tick you off.that's better...ticked off is quite different than "annoyed in general". anyway, while i understand that a stripper may be ticked off. i don't condone it as an excuse for not acting like a pro.
Do I think this is a good way to act? Well, I wouldn't do it myself.i understand that, jenny. however, that doesn't stop you from making excuses for her by understating her reaction and for not acting like a pro.
She badmouthed to the rest of the girls? By saying what? That he wanted to get blown in the VIP? He did. That's not badmouthing him.another excuse. really, so what was her intent behind badmouthing him? gee, do you think perhaps she wanted to cause him harm in some way?
And sometimes rejection does feel personal. We aren't selling scooters here. We are selling touch time on our bodies. It's a very specialized kind of service. Sometime our feelings get involved, just like yours. Well, yours in the general sense.look, it's not that i disagree with you and you can make all the excuses for flaky behavior. however, when it stops being about business and starts becoming personal. i'll give a stripper the same advice i give PLs. it's time to take a break.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?ms. moot court has the nerve to ask me such a question.
Is the like a grown up web version of pulling my hair? Is this your way of saying that you have a crush on me?i could ask you the same thing. my ex-wives liked breaking my balls as well.
Katrine
07-11-2005, 07:09 PM
Ah crap! I thought we banned Rath? Or perhaps he passed my moratorium on the Ignore function. Everyone got a second chance....let's see how long that lasts.
Yes, I called the Pinkies a nasty name. Despite all of the useful information I share up there, one seratonin-deprived day, and off I'm cast! LOL! ;)
Hopefully the lithium will work, they tell me it does wonders.........
Jenny
07-11-2005, 07:15 PM
^^^
Hey, I was on the LOL side. And the side that was arguing that she was NOT going to get AIDS from kissing 3 people in a night. I was just saying...
xdamage
07-11-2005, 07:22 PM
Yes, I called the Pinkies a nasty name. Despite all of the useful information I share up there, one seratonin-deprived day, and off I'm cast! LOL! ;)
Well that sucks. I vote Kat gets an honorary blue membership. We won't ever cast you out, though we might call you biatch, but then after a few rounds of drinks it would all be forgetten and we would move on ;)
SportsWriter2
07-11-2005, 07:34 PM
I vote Kat gets an honorary blue membership.
Not just honorary, make her a real Blue. She's got ballz.
Kat, I didn't get banned. I stopped posting cuz I thought this site as well as its sister site was too intolerant and just generally retarded. Wonder why I thought that? Not that I plan to hang around much here, but please put me back on ignore.
She badmouthed to the rest of the girls? By saying what? That he wanted to get blown in the VIP? He did. That's not badmouthing him. By his own account, they already knew that anyway.
Actually, I have no idea what she said. All I know is that several "friends" who have sold me (at least) blow jobs and hence wouldn't be shocked at the news that I'm interested in buying them came up to me, independently, and said, "You wouldn't believe what [xxx] is saying about you." Charitable and non-confrontational soul that I am -- "nice guy", you might even say -- I didn't even want to know.
Maybe she said I've been banned from Stripper Web/Strip Club Junkie. That false rumor* seems to have reached Texas already.
______________________________________________
* At least false as of the time I'm typing this. Who knows what the penalty is for saying what I said in my last post?
Jenny
07-11-2005, 08:52 PM
Kat, I didn't get banned. I stopped posting cuz I thought this site as well as its sister site was too intolerant and just generally retarded. Wonder why I thought that? Not that I plan to hang around much here, but please put me back on ignore.Hmmm. Gosh. Reading that, I wonder why people who actually like posting here don't like you and don't really extend you a lot of tolerance? I mean, speaking of people that come into a community solely to insult the people....
Actually, I have no idea what she said. All I know is that several "friends" who have sold me (at least) blow jobs and hence wouldn't be shocked at the news that I'm interested in buying them came up to me, independently, and said, "You wouldn't believe what [xxx] is saying about you." Charitable and non-confrontational soul that I am -- "nice guy", you might even say -- I didn't even want to know. Okay, so it's just bullshit stripper drama of the "I'm a much nicer dancer than her" variety. You don't know that she was actually badmouthing you (and by that I mean saying anything untrue), she might just have been saying things that weren't nice (not the same thing at all).
All Good Things
07-11-2005, 08:57 PM
My personal speciality in terms of customers is the one off, sort of dorky guy who is really shy in real life and is looking to spend somewhere in between $60 - $100 in about 45 minutes. I'm too shy for the fetish guys, and I look kind of... nice for the touchy ones, and I just can't be bothered remembering the Cai's. Schmuks I find kind of intimidating - they pay too much attention to you, and sort of implicitly demand it back and they always seem a breath away from shoving you in a freezer, to take you out once a year to say "You're still so perfect." It's too much work, I don't care for it.
Jenny, I've always admired your writing, but you are seriously finding a groove here. Damn. It's not quite at the level of The Woman of My Dreams, who has deftly captured my heart, my soul and my body and can write circles around Saul Bellow while drunk and nude, wearing plats while cooking in the kitchen and listening to NPR (!!!) but I am totally impressed with your literary talent nonetheless. Next time I'm in Toronto, I'll buy out your night and convince you to give the sophisticate crowd a chance. ;)
Jenny
07-11-2005, 09:16 PM
it's in the response right below you.
my point is that everyone has problems, jenny.
See, interestingly enough, I just re-perused, and that didn't seem to be your point at all. Everyone has problems didn't come up until like 5 minutes ago. I think your original point was closer to Girls shouldn't make fun of Boys, but the girls are strippers, so they should have to suck it up.
they may not have the same exact problems, but problems aren't unique just strippers. i don't think strippers deserve special consideration because they're strippers.
Yah. And? Everyone has problems? How does this impact other people's (you know - the non-strippers, whose feelings matter) feelings about having their work environment polluted as someone else's hobby?
well, it sure sounds like it. How? Where in here have I posted "Only strippers ever have bad days at work, and nobody who is not a dancer has ever had a customer issue?" Like, why would I say that? Why would I even think that? I dance once a week, man. I do something else the rest of the bloody time.
thank you. i don't want strippers emoting all over me about the extraordinary hardship of being a stripper.
Well then. What an interesting conversation to embroil yourself in.
so, is that a yes or a no? seriously, if the shoe doesn't fit you personally, don't worry about it.
Yes or no to what? I was saying that I a) never made the claims that you are attributing and b) don't think I need to be a customer (or for that matter a stripper) to observe customer/stripper dynamic. I don't even understand your question.... but I'm going with no.
i'm not talking about that..who wouldn't be pissed if they lost $500. however, you described her as being "annoyed in general" almost as if she had a mild case of indigestion.
So you're saying my adjectives weren't strong enough? That is what you are taking issue with? I said "in general" to indicate that it wasn't specifically targetted against him for having temerity.
that's better...ticked off is quite different than "annoyed in general". anyway, while i understand that a stripper may be ticked off. i don't condone it as an excuse for not acting like a pro.
No. But I tend to sympathize with people in service industries in general, and the people that might be having a bad day at work as opposed to those who are looking to buy blowjobs or are just fucking around. I'm from a very working class family in which my grandmother waited tables for 15 years - it's just how I was raised.
i understand that, jenny. however, that doesn't stop you from making excuses for her by understating her reaction and for not acting like a pro.
another excuse. really,
Like I said. Sympathy for those in the service industry. People who might be having a bad day. As opposed to those who just want to pay for a blowjob in a public place. Working class background. How I was raised. I also say please and thank you to waitstaff, and will tip $2.00 on a $2.50 coffee. Am I a "nice guy" yet?
so what was her intent behind badmouthing him? gee, do you think perhaps she wanted to cause him harm in some way?
Again - how is it badmouthing if it is true? You think it is perfectly acceptable to exchange ostensibly true information about the dancers here. How does it become bad when she does it? And come on man - some girl comes up to him later and says "She's been saying things about you" - for this we're meant to... what, care?
look, it's not that i disagree with you
You don't? What precisely are you agreeing with right now?
and you can make all the excuses for flaky behavior. however, when it stops being about business and starts becoming personal. i'll give a stripper the same advice i give PLs. it's time to take a break.
See, the PL's have that option. The strippers sometimes don't. Or they don't feel like they do. Not everyone can just quit their job because they had a bad night. This goes back to the whole - for us this is not a game. We are not "sore losers." For us not winning means we can't pay our rent/our unemployed musician boyfriend's bail/buy crack/pay tuition/dress up our chihuahua's (she never even wears her coat, by the way. She hates it. Whenever it is put within her line of sight she gives me a baleful look. And it was so cute. It was a little military coat with its own little bedroll. For when she goes into combat.)/fund neighbourhood initiatives to spay cats/travel to the antarctic to innoculate penguins or what the fuck ever.
Jenny
07-11-2005, 09:20 PM
Jenny, I've always admired your writing, but you are seriously finding a groove here. Damn. It's not quite at the level of The Woman of My Dreams, who has deftly captured my heart, my soul and my body and can write circles around Saul Bellow while drunk and nude, wearing plats while cooking in the kitchen and listening to NPR (!!!) but I am totally impressed with your literary talent nonetheless. Next time I'm in Toronto, I'll buy out your night and convince you to give the sophisticate crowd a chance. ;)
Okay, now I have to show you this. And I want to take the credit for it so bad, you have no idea. But that would make me a bad person - I just can't do it.
Four years.
Can you believe
we've been together that long?
It's hard to even remember
what things were like before you.
All I know for sure is
I had a lot more room for pizzas and ice cream.
And look at you.
You haven't aged a day.
And your make-up is still perfect.
I love you, head in my freezer.
Hmmm. Gosh. Reading that, I wonder why people who actually like posting here don't like you and don't really extend you a lot of tolerance? I mean, speaking of people that come into a community solely to insult the people....
I know I should have a thicker skin and shit. But what I hate about this site (and don't worry, I'm really leaving now) is that I put up two fucking posts (which were substantive, completely nonabusive, and actually on-point to an ongoing discussion), Kat puts up some snide non-substantive comment insulting me (but of course not addressing the points of my posts), and then when I respond I get accused of "com[ing] into a community solely to insult people." That's EXACTLY the way these two sites operate. I've honestly never participated in an online community like it. But it's not my place to say things like that. It's just my place to leave. Bye. Have fun with each other.
doc-catfish
07-11-2005, 09:41 PM
Like, trip reports: why? I'm not criticizing, just wondering. Like do you guys really jerk off to this? Do you like reading it is a sexual way? That would make a certain amount of sense - I suspect, though, that most of you are sharing the stories the same way frat boys would share stories of conquests. You are doing it to show each other, and maybe yourselves, your dominance over these women, these clubs. Like how in charge you are, how in control, how much you get for how little money when other guys have to pay so much more for so much less.
Others here will have to speak for themselves, but have you read any of my TR's? They're way too tragic/comic to be considered even close to bragadocious, much less be considered erotica. In fact it seems only when I've had an unusual or unpleasant experience that they're even worth the effort of typing.
And if any of you are beating off to the TR's... please get help. There's better porn out there.
:O
The Snark
07-11-2005, 09:54 PM
I was saying that this is part of the reason we respond to each other the way we do (HERE, not in the club) and that we are both trying to assert dominance in a hypothetical relationship (like you and I might have a hypothetical dancer customer relationship, because you are a customer, I am a dancer and we respond to each other within that framework even though we don't actually interact within that framework - if that made any sense.
I don't think "dominance" has anything to do with it--it's just the sort of adversarial relationship you'd expect to find among any community of buyers and sellers. Dancers want to offer as little as they can for the highest possible price, while customers want as much as they can for as little money as possible. These opposing interests tend to colour both parties' perceptions of their transactions. I'm sure you'd find a similar dynamic on a website devoted to used car salesmen, real estate agents, or lemonade stands.
Nicolina
07-11-2005, 10:07 PM
I don't think "dominance" has anything to do with it--it's just the sort of adversarial relationship you'd expect to find among any community of buyers and sellers.
Well.....I'd say the dancer-customer relationship is a little more adversarial--or maybe just a little more complicated and emotionally charged--than the relationship between most other buyers and sellers.
After all, if you don't buy from a used car salesman, you're rejecting the jacked-up '82 Dodge Dart he's trying to sell you.
OTOH, if you don't buy from a stripper, you're rejecting her, as a person. (or anyway, it feels that way sometimes....)
Y'know?
The Snark
07-11-2005, 10:42 PM
Yes, you're right: the relationship is emotionally charged, even for the customer. This is especially so when the customer is seeking something as intangible as intimacy, affection or a shoulder to cry on. Obviously, this isn't something that a dancer can provide, so feelings inevitably get hurt.
But the point I was trying to make is that relationships between dancers and customers (or female and male posters on this site) are not so much about one person trying to dominate another, but rather about two people trying get the most they can out of a transaction. Needless to say, there's a lot more to the relationship than just the transaction, but the opposing interests of the two people tend to make them see the relationship in a very different light.
erotictonic
07-12-2005, 12:52 AM
This is like a customer who thinks strippers are losers or dirty, and would never date or marry a girl who strips (though he might bang one), but he goes to the clubs and take of the situation anyway. Guys like that I just want to... well slap some sense in to them.
But it's good to read that at least some of the dancers here don't have such negative, and simple on/off mindset towards customers.
To be fair to you though. You are:
1.) You are being honest about how you feel about customers, which I can't fault you for.
2.) The situation between dancers and customers isn't equal because we (customers) come and go as we please (this is why we think we are in control btw). While you (dancers) are stuck there 8 hours day. Well, stuck by choice. You could always choose another line of work, and you have.
We are in control... just like you are in control of your career. You choose to go to work to make money. That doesn't leave you in the control of your customers. It's our job.
xdamage
07-12-2005, 06:09 AM
We are in control... just like you are in control of your career. You choose to go to work to make money. That doesn't leave you in the control of your customers. It's our job.
LOL. Tell yourself if that if it makes you feel good. But the real world isn't so simple on/off though.
In the real world my customers are deeply intertwined with my career. It's they who choose to buy product, or not. If the choose not, my career ceases to exist. I am in only control of my career to a degree, but I don't I have complete freedom over what I do in it.
Unless you go off to live as a loner monk type in the woods (which would't be a good place to carry on a stripping career) your control over what you do in a society is deeply intertwined with the people you provide service too.
The difference is, I don't have career where I dislike my customers, look down on them, or feel a need to look down on them to make myself feel like I'm in control. I don't see them as adversaries in my life.
p.s. And Jenny reminds us that not all girls in the SC business feel like they can make a choice to get out and make money another way. That sure doesn't sound like they are in control over their career to me. Sounds like they are trapped in it (as so many of us are, trapped in that we need to be working a job, some kind of job, to make ends meet).
It's when you have to keep reminding yourself that you're in control that the truth of the matter is you're not (else you wouldn't need to expend so much energy telling yourself you are).
doc-catfish
07-12-2005, 07:07 AM
Technically speaking, a sale is an agreement of terms between a seller and a buyer. If one party's terms of sale are not acceptable to the other party, the sale doesn't take place. Neither party is technically in control. In cases where one party does get taken to the cleaners by the other, its generally because they were gullible enough to let themselves be taken advantage of.
God knows that in the history of the SC industry, I doubt thirty seconds haven't passed where someone somewhere wasn't allowiing themselves to be hornswoggled. A little backbone goes a long way.
xdamage
07-12-2005, 07:43 AM
No man is an island. No woman either.
When you dislike what you do everday and the people you do it for, and you can't change your career, are you really in control over your own life? If thats control then you can have it. Sounds like a sucky life to me.
xdamage
07-12-2005, 10:09 AM
Well.....I'd say the dancer-customer relationship is a little more adversarial--or maybe just a little more complicated and emotionally charged--than the relationship between most other buyers and sellers.
I agree there are some unique things going on in the SC environment that you don't find in most other work. And yes there is a lot of deep seated sexuality, and emotions at play in the SC and so it's hard to compare what happens in the clubs with other jobs.
And honestly I couldn't do it. I mean be a stripper. I don't have the emotional makeup necessary to handle it. I couldn't handle women I don't particularly like invading my personal space. I couldn't deal with having to fake it, I find it exhausting.
OTOH, if you don't buy from a stripper, you're rejecting her, as a person. (or anyway, it feels that way sometimes....)
Y'know?
Well for whatever its worth, I don't ever feel good about saying no. Damn knight in shining armor syndrome I guess. But if I let it get to me then I end up feeling like crap when I see that look in a strippers eyes and I know she has just taken no personally. She shouldn't but then there is often a world of difference between what we know intellectually and how we react emotionally to a situation.
Unfortunately for the customer, if they allow those feelings to get to them they will (very likely) be taken advantage of. Maybe not by you personally. You come across as a real sweet lady Nicolina, but not all strippers are sweet. Many are quite ruthless and if you show any amount of human feelings around them then they play you. And it's just exhausting to deal with that.
And practically speaking, most of us don't have unlimited budgets and if we don't say no then it would just be whoever happens to latch on to us first on the way through the door would be the one to drain our wallets that night.
The strip club is an unusual environment. I don't particularly like being a dickhead, but it's somewhat necessary to at least be neutral and turn a lot of the emotions off when in the SCs. In particular guys just have to turn off their inner knight in shining armor. They can be polite to a degree, civil, but even then some strippers can be relentless in begging for dances. That's not fun. It's just painful having to say no, no, no thanks, and over and over. In a big crowded club, sometimes the only way to get it to stop is to be a bit of a dickhead (I guess the girls tell each other he's not buying, or see the rejection of their peers, and they sort of collectively cool it).
I keep thinking it would be nice to go to a club where I could just go in, and enjoy a couple of drinks before I get hustled to death. I know I'd be in a lot better mood in a club if I didn't have to spend the first hour saying no, no, no, no, no thanks, no really not right now, yea sure maybe later, no, no, over and over. It sucks for the dancers, and it's no thrill for me to have to reject anyone. But I am not there for the dancers. I can't be. I gave up on trying to make everyone happy all of the time a long time ago. I am there for me, and there is just no way to do the club thing, and enjoy the evening the way I want to enjoy it, and not say no to a lot of dancers. It would be better if they didn't take it personally, even better still if they were a bit more sensitive to letting me settle in before pouncing, but this is not the way the club is The only thing I can do as a SC customer is not let it get to me and ruin my night.
mr_punk
07-12-2005, 10:37 AM
How? Where in here have I posted "Only strippers ever have bad days at work, and nobody who is not a dancer has ever had a customer issue?"oh, you didn't say it. i said it SOUNDS like it.
So you're saying my adjectives weren'tstrong enough? That is what you are taking issue with? you completely understated her reaction to missing out on the sale. she reacted a lot stronger and a lot more childish than you described.
I said "in general" to indicate that itwasn't specifically targetted against him for having temerity. ok, but i never had a a problem with that part.
I'm from a very working class family in which my grandmother waited tables for 15 years - it's just how I was raised. and i bet your grandmother acted like a pro despite the fact that her job was a lot less forgiving of the amateurish behavior that you commonly find in a sc.
I also say please and thank you to waitstaff, and will tip $2.00 on a $2.50 coffee. Am I a "nice guy" yet? no, but does your waiter emote all over you during the main course? does he get pissed directly at the other customers that don't leave a $2 tip?
Again - how is it badmouthing if it is true?if rath had purchased the VIP. would she have performed the same action? i doubt it. she has the money. so, why be mad at rath? however, that didn't happen. so, after she lost out on the cash. she wanted to get back at him...personally. her intent was malicious and nothing more.
You think it is perfectly acceptable to exchange ostensibly true information about the dancers
here. How does it become bad when she does it? i'm sorry, but didn't rath buy some dances and politely listen to her pitch. however, they couldn't reach an agreement and they both moved on. well, rath moved on. OTOH, she did not. my point is that he didn't cause her any harm. so, why try to cause him harm? OTOH, if rath tried to finger her or if he said something like, "hey bitch, how much are the BJ?". well, the stripper can badmouth him all she wants and i'll help her.
You don't? What precisely are you agreeing with right now?the fact that people have bad days. i understand that they do. however, i also understand that when i meet with my clients. ultimately, they don't to want to hear a steady stream of my emoting about my bad hair day as an excuse for a lack of performance or amateurish behavior on my part. sure, there are days when they can be more demanding than usual or times when i don't feel at the top of my game, but i fight through it to get the job done and i never let them see me sweat. they are there to conduct business. they are looking for results and they're paying me to get those results. they're not paying me to hear excuses about my sick dog.
See, the PL's have that option. The strippers sometimes don't. Or they don't feel like they do.strippers have options, jenny. this isn't the 1950's ,60's or 70's. oh, they might find some of them unpleasant or difficult just like the rest of us, but they have options. although, you're right. they may feel as if they don't have any options at all.
Not everyone can just quit their job because they had a bad night.well, that an option, but i'm not asking them to quit, jenny. i said "it's time to take a break.". if someone can't effectively deal with their customers without going ballistic directly at the customer. they need some time off. it could be a day, a week or even a month off. whatever...the amount of time..fix it.
This goes back to the whole - for us this is not a game.again, it's no different than most of the working world and it's no excuse for not being a pro. it's almost as if you're asking for a special exemption because you're a stripper.
For us not winning means we can't pay our rent/our unemployed musician boyfriend's bail/buy crack/pay tuition/dress up our chihuahua's (she never even wears her coat, by the way. oh, gee...you want to tell that to the GM employees who are still laid off. i'm sure they'll feel a lot better off about being unemployed or not being a stripper.
The Snark
07-12-2005, 05:47 PM
It does, when you think about it, seem a little odd to buy and sell the sort of things that are bought and sold in a strip club. I mean, the right to touch another person's body is rather different, and far more intimate and personal than the purchase of widgets or financial services.
That's part of the problem. There is a steadily expanding range of activities in modern society that are governed by market values (i.e., rational self-interest, profit maximization). Then there are dwindling number of activities that are governed by non-market values such as mutuality, reciprocity and sharing.
We pretty much can all agree that buying a used car is something that should be left to the market. We can argue about whether public goods such as education and utilities ought to be subject to market principles. But most would say that things like family life should be based more on love than on rational self-interest.
I think that's what a lot of people find objectionable about the sex industry: it turns sexuality into a cluster of services that are bought and sold on the market, rather than an expression of love between two people. They see the commodification of sex as an attack on the values they associate with family life.
And the main problem with "nice guys" in the context of a strip club is that they're acting according to non-market rules (mutuality, generosity) in a context where they ought to be looking out for their own self-interest. Inevitably, they get taken to the cleaners.
Say what you will about Mr. Punk or the profit-maximizing ice queens of the pink site, but their behaviour is appropriate to a situation in which they are expected to look out for themselves, and no one else.
Katrine
07-12-2005, 06:02 PM
I think that's what a lot of people find objectionable about the sex industry: it turns sexuality into a cluster of services that are bought and sold on the market, rather than an expression of love between two people. They see the commodification of sex as an attack on the values they associate with family life.
The ideal of lifelong everlasting romantic monogamous love between two people was a concept fabricated around the 14th century due to the popularization of the Arthurian legends in medievel Europe.
Before that, women were chattel and men just did what they wanted with prostitutes without repurcussions. Have things changed so much?
xdamage
07-12-2005, 06:29 PM
Say what you will about Mr. Punk or the profit-maximizing ice queens of the pink site, but their behaviour is appropriate to a situation in which they are expected to look out for themselves, and no one else.
I don't have any problems at all with strippers maximizing their profits, or customers maximizing their return on investment, or that what one one group wants is often at odds with the other group. This is just normal push and pull that makes the world go round. Of course outside the club, on neutral territory, no reason the gloves can't come off and the opponents shake hands and compare notes and agree to be civil, if not friendly.
xdamage
07-13-2005, 05:58 AM
It does, when you think about it, seem a little odd to buy and sell the sort of things that are bought and sold in a strip club. I mean, the right to touch another person's body is rather different, and far more intimate and personal than the purchase of widgets or financial services.
Prostitution is often called
"The oldest trade in the world"
Historically it has been going on for as long as people have been selling food and clothes, much longer then they have been selling widgets and financial services.
Before that, women were chattel and men just did what they wanted with prostitutes without repurcussions. Have things changed so much?
Have things changed so much?
In one way, possibly yes.
If Katrine is correct (and I think she is basically correct regarding women use to have little say over what happened to them as prostitutes) a big change is that in our society prostitution is no longer just equal to fucking for dollars. What a nice simple on/off definition of prostitution that was. Now we have this whole spectrum of sexual activity for $$s ranging from looking at a distance (no touch allowed) to whatever multi-gang bang, sex toy, s&M activities you can afford where the woman have a lot of say in how much they are willing to do for $$$s.
This is sort of maybe ETs point, they are in control now of what men get for the $$s.
So now in our society woman have a whole range of prostitution they can engage in where they have a great deal of control over how far it goes. That's the cause of a great deal of emotional problems on both sides.
Now you'll see the flames come out, I AM NOT A PROSTITUTE. Correct, we call it a Sex Worker today, and the range of sexual services is wide, but it's just a scale from mild sexual activity for $$s to hard core sexual activity for $$s and every woman places her limits at a different spot on that scale.
And thats the big problem for women. Because they have a lot of control over how far it goes, they also are able to trick themselves into believing they aren't sex workers, but the trickery only goes so far, and another part of them still ends up facing many of the same emotional issues prostitutes have historically always faced.
The men of course do what their instincts tell them, to take it farther.
But sex work is also the cause of much emotional stress for the sex workers who struggle with the same sense of guilt, the same social outcast status in much of society, the sames issues being rejected by their families, the same issues with being rejected by men, many of the same issues that prostitutes always have faced. Even in countries where prostitution is legal (e.g, Norway), the general population still looks down on as morally wrong, damaging behavior, associated with crime, etc. Infact there is a strong push Norway to make it illegal again. Stripping is legal, but it doesn't change how people fundamentally feel about women who exchange sex for money, nor does it change how people fundamentally feel about men who use their services.
Many strippers though can't acknowledge they are sex workers, a milder version of the prostitute. Many customers can't acknowledge they are using a milder form or prostitution. Hard to admit, hard to accept. No body feels guilty about selling widgets or financial services, our society doesn't look down on those who do, but it sure does look down on strippers and the customers that use them. Maybe not to the same degree as sex workers that fuck for $$s but in much of the general publics mind that's just a mild difference on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is fucking for $$s, and stripping is a 3-9 depending on how much touching and other sexual activitiy takes place.
Sex, guilt, money. Powerful motivaters the sex worker, and the customer struggle with.
p.s. this will undoubtedly illicit strong reactions because facing that one is a sex worker is pretty much impossible for some (even though it shouldn't, but the guilt is there whether or not it makes sense that it should be there). Today's sex worker can tell herself (or himself) I don't let it go beyond a certain point, so it's not sex! But that's just self denial when the customers are getting wood and spewing their loads. It's sure somethign to do with sex for the customers.
Nothing much has changed in regards to societies view of selling sex (even if it's not fucking) for $$s. It's still looked down on. And historically the sellers of sex are looked down on much more negatively then the buyers. The feelings and attitudes about sex for $$s are deep and long standing. Few can accept the situation for what it is objectively and talk about it without their own sense of guilt, and their struggles with it, overwhelming them.
Derek
07-13-2005, 06:15 AM
The accounting equation is: assets = liabilities + equity That is to keep the equation in balance an increase in an asset account has to be offset by a decrease in another asset account or an increase in a liability or equity account.
Consequently, the equation for gals and gals is: guy wants sex = gal wants $ (finc security)
Why else do they say diamonds are forever.
Katrine
07-13-2005, 06:31 AM
The accounting equation is: assets = liabilities + equity That is to keep the equation in balance an increase in an asset account has to be offset by a decrease in another asset account or an increase in a liability or equity account.
Oh brother, tell me about it. All I've been doing the last few days is studying equity changes in margin accounts and coming on here for entertainment.......:-\
mr_punk
07-13-2005, 07:11 AM
Consequently, the equation for gals and gals is: guy wants sex = gal wants $ (finc security)Why else do they say diamonds are forever.why that's absolutely mindblowing, derek..i'm sure the thought never occured to any of us before...well, those of us without ex-wives....or wives, or girlfriends or mistresses or SCJ or....ad nauseum.
xdamage
07-13-2005, 07:44 AM
Consequently, the equation for gals and gals is: guy wants sex = gal wants $ (finc security)
Well, yea, hopefully that is self evident, though I have run into far too many guys and gals who think the equation is something like:
guys want the romantic woman of their dreams = gals want to dance erotically for the love of the ART of dance.
mr_punk
07-13-2005, 08:10 AM
Many strippers though can't acknowledge they are sex workers, a milder version of the prostitute.ironically, the word 'sex' in sex worker seems to be the biggest barrier to it's acknowledgment. i suppose, the euphemism of 'dancer' or 'entertainer' sounds more pleasant to the ears and mind.
Many customers can't acknowledge they are using a milder form or prostitution.many of them have the same beliefs as strippers including those sc customers who actually engage in sex with strippers. i know some guys that have no problem paying a stripper for sex. however, for some of the very same reasons you stated earlier. they become reluctant at thought of seeing an escort. go figure.
p.s. this will undoubtedly illicit strong reactions because facing that one is a sex worker is pretty much impossible for some (even though it shouldn't, but the guilt is there whether or not it makes sense that it should be there).true, but cognitive dissonance is difficult all of us to overcome because we do it without sometimes realizing it..
xdamage
07-13-2005, 08:27 AM
cognitive dissonance is difficult all of us to overcome because we do it without sometimes realizing it..
cognitive dissonance
n. Psychology. A condition of conflict or anxiety resulting from inconsistency between one's beliefs and one's actions, such as opposing the slaughter of animals and eating meat.
(hopefully everyone saw the word "all" in that sentence).
Agreed, customers also struggle with conflicts over their own beliefs and actions when going to a SC.
The Snark
07-13-2005, 08:29 AM
I think it's interesting that, in this very thread, ET mentions that she occasionally dates men for their money (i.e., they pay in some sense for her company), and yet she has contempt for SC customers... because they pay women for their company. Very interesting.
xdamage
07-13-2005, 08:51 AM
I think it's interesting that, in this very thread, ET mentions that she occasionally dates men for their money (i.e., they pay in some sense for her company), and yet she has contempt for SC customers... because they pay women for their company. Very interesting.
I find it equally interesting (but not unfathomable) that a man will pay a woman for sex (or something close to it), yet at the same time hold the woman that they buy sex from in contempt (they would never seriously date or marry such a woman), and at the same time see no inconsistencies or issues in themselves.
The equivalent of this is the woman who will trade sex (or something close to it) for money, yet at the same time hold the man they sell sex to in contempt (they would never date or marry such a man), and at the same time see no inconsistencies in themselves.
The irony is that these situations are essentially equal (with the exception of woman who are forced into prostitution, and would gladly leave the business to do any other kind of work for less money even, if they could so without being physically harmed). But this exception does not apply to most strippers in our society who choose this line of work because it pays well, and maybe has other perks.
Back to the irony though. There is nothing at all unexpected in ETs feelings about customers. It just that she waves it around as if to show us she has the upper hand over men, and (most of us) don't care at all. But many men do the exact same thing. They pay sex workers for sex, but at the same time they hold the woman they buy sex from in contempt, and don't seem able to acknowledge they inconsistency between their actions and beliefs.
In truth I wouldn't care if ET said here are the facts:
1. I want money.
2. I hold my customers in contempt and think they are psychologically screwed up.
3. I'm taking advantage of the fact that there are psychologically screwed up types to make money.
It's the last part I doubt she will ever be capable of saying. The first two parts, who cares? The customer equivalent would be something like:
1. I want sex.
2. I hold the woman I buy sex from in contempt and think they are psychologically screwed up and would never date them.
3. I'm taking advantage of the fact that there are psychologically screwed up types to get sex.
Like I said #1 and #2, who cares. No problem if you can acknowledge #3.
But the better alternative would be:
4. And that's a problem with me, I have an inconsistency in my belief/actions, and I need to work on the inconsistencies in myself. My contempt for the other sex (or the customer or sex worker) is a problem with me, not a problem with them.
But again, I haven't gotten any sense from ET that she is likely to say that either. She is too proud that she has the feelings in point #2 and a long way from point #4.
GenWar
07-13-2005, 09:59 AM
Wow.
Remember when this thread was about reading FBR's amazing OTC "Trip" Reports? ;D
This has all gotten way too deep. :-\
-gen
Susan Wayward
07-13-2005, 06:22 PM
Yes, this whole mess should be split, starting about ten pages back. Oh, god, there goes thirty minutes I will never have back.
My whole take on SCJ, ASPD, and the old ASS-C board on which I used to lurk when I was a baby stripper, is that we're dealing with a combination of two things: hobby and commerce. The commerce side has men discussing value, location, and other specifics. The hobby side deals with their personal enjoyment, and allows them to consider themselves part of a community.
Jenny, I am sure some men feel as though they're getting over and "winning" the imaginary game they're playing, but I am also certain that you would not consider yourself a "loser" because you provided a service someone sought out and paid for. I think this board resembles any other hobby board concerning pretty expensive things, like cars or stereo equipment. We are, after all, objects at work, and are subject to being treated and discussed by us. How we reconcile that with our own self-determination is up to us (although most dancers I've met don't ever have that thought enter their minds).
So if men are boasting here of getting over, I think they do the same thing when they compare cars, houses, boats, or sets of power tools. It's all commerce when you get down to it, and having banged the most/spent the most is just another way to keep score. Or, alternately, having a group to converse with about a hobby enables them to enjoy it more.
I have no illusions about being an "entertainer" rather than a sex worker. When I'm on stage doing a burlesque routine and twirling pasties, I'm entertaining. When I'm doing a bodyslide naked down a stranger with wood, I'm a sex worker. Hell, even in a no-contact club, if I'm letting a stranger do a thorough visual examination of my darkest crevices, I'm a sex worker, so those girls who work in no-contact clubs and therefore classify themselves as "entertainers" can kiss my sweet ass.
I classify customers like this: ones who already paid me, ones who might pay me, and ones who definitely won't pay me. Further than that, they're all in one category: guys (or occasionally gals). Just a bunch of guys. Fortunately I have no problem with guys.
Jenny
07-13-2005, 06:47 PM
Jenny, I am sure some men feel as though they're getting over and "winning" the imaginary game they're playing, but I am also certain that you would not consider yourself a "loser" because you provided a service someone sought out and paid for.
No, but again, I was discussing male/female interaction HERE not in the club. The guy's aren't just posting for each other - if nothing else there is an implied female audience. X asked why girls would come here to insult them, and I tried to answer. My answer involved explaining why I thought that certain kinds of posts like the Trip Reports were analagous. I was never critiquing it and I wasn't saying that girls should be rude to customers. I really don't know where all this comes from.
So if men are boasting here of getting over, I think they do the same thing when they compare cars, houses, boats, or sets of power tools.
Perhaps (although I don't think so). But they know as well as we do that their cars and houses aren't reading what they say about them. If they did, probably nobody would be getting a smooth ride home.
Or, alternately, having a group to converse with about a hobby enables them to enjoy it more.
Yeah, but again, I don't think it is for a purely custy audience - you know when you write a journal, how it's for you and an implied outside audience at the same time? Same thing.
I have no illusions about being an "entertainer" rather than a sex worker. When I'm on stage doing a burlesque routine and twirling pasties, I'm entertaining. When I'm doing a bodyslide naked down a stranger with wood, I'm a sex worker. Hell, even in a no-contact club, if I'm letting a stranger do a thorough visual examination of my darkest crevices, I'm a sex worker, so those girls who work in no-contact clubs and therefore classify themselves as "entertainers" can kiss my sweet ass.
Preaching to the choir, baby. Although nobody kisses my ass without paying.
I classify customers like this: ones who already paid me, ones who might pay me, and ones who definitely won't pay me. Further than that, they're all in one category: guys (or occasionally gals). Just a bunch of guys. Fortunately I have no problem with guys.
Perfectly reasonable classifications - I have those one's too.
xdamage
07-13-2005, 07:47 PM
X asked why girls would come here to insult them, and I tried to answer.
Pretty well understood (I think), and it's been a very interesting exchange ;) Sorry, I guess I found that all a lot more interesting than the average trip report, but okay, back to trip reports (or whatever is normal discussion around here).
Susan Wayward
07-13-2005, 08:06 PM
Fair point about the implied audience, though I think we all know what we're getting into when we read here. It's like being a female reporter in the locker room--no one's going to take any pains to put you at ease.
Yeah, back to the TRs and NATOs and more Derek! Yeah!
The Snark
07-13-2005, 10:18 PM
Sorry, I guess I found that all a lot more interesting than the average trip report, but okay, back to trip reports (or whatever is normal discussion around here).
Ditto here. Honestly, I find trip reports of the "I-poked-her-there-and-prodded-her-here" variety dull, repetitious and (contrary to Jenny's insinuations) not in the least bit wankworthy.
Helle
07-13-2005, 11:32 PM
The trip reports on here tend to bore me but I think, personally, the whole point of them isn't to necessarily look good, trade stories, brag... Maybe on the outter level. I think they're just, you know, stories. You guys are trying to read WAY too much into why people post 'em. People do that with anything they're into... video games, movies, books, bars, why not girls? It's self centered... People are into smething, they wanna talk about it, they want attention on themselves... You guys are looking too hard at it.
Hating customers.... Yeah, it sounds like bullshit posturing to me. And if you are disgusted or even bored by every customer you have had, (not naming names so don;t botehr replying say 'Hey Helle, I never said I felt that way!') then you're missing part of what makes dancing fun. Yeah, money, we're all in it for the money and.... No, most of my customers I HAVEN'T been sexually attracted to or wanted to fuck. But because they want to fuck me or pay to fuck me, I never looked down on it... More, I was flattered.
If a man wants to buy me a drink or a dance, I dont read so much into it. I don't look at the motives and say 'Oh, what a pervert, he wants to cop a feel or try and fuck me'. I just think he wants to buy me a drink or a dance and ladies, some of you are BAD stuck up. If you think that's all EVERY customer wants... No. Sometimes a rose IS a rose. Sometimes THEY JUST WANT TO BUY DRINKS. Or a dance.
Sometimes not.
The factor missing in all this is that each individual is an indivudual. There's so much generalizing in these posts that.. that no one can be right. Not ALL customers, or even MOST customers do or want the same thing. Same with strippers.
If a man wants to pay you for company and good conversation, just take it for what it is. Enjoy the talk. Maybe you'll learn something or have an epiphany.
And last. Anyone who would look down on a man for wanting to pay for sex... You are way too conservative to be working in a strip club. Who gives a shit if he does... It's just sex. Big fucking deal. That doesn't make him scum... Doesn't make him a pervert. He just wanted sex. Just like 99 percent of the planet does. If he has to pay for it... That's what he does. Big woop.
You guys think too much, sometimes. I love all of my regulars because... I don't know. Something almost intangible. They aren't just customers, they're friends. And while it's a relationship that stays in the club, it's still more important than the connotation you put on the world customer.
Sorry this is long and maybe off topic. I read the first three pages of this discussion and got bored.
xdamage
07-14-2005, 07:47 AM
Hating customers.... Yeah, it sounds like bullshit posturing to me. And if you are disgusted or even bored by every customer you have had, (not naming names so don;t botehr replying say 'Hey Helle, I never said I felt that way!') then you're missing part of what makes dancing fun. Yeah, money, we're all in it for the money and.... No, most of my customers I HAVEN'T been sexually attracted to or wanted to fuck. But because they want to fuck me or pay to fuck me, I never looked down on it... More, I was flattered.
I really like your attitude. Very cool. I think your attitude towards customers is probably about as good as you can have in the business your in. And if you can have some fun while working, that makes all the difference.
Of course nobody normal would expect that you would be sexually attracted to most of your customers. But what didn't come through in your post is some general blanket loathing of all customers.
Like you said, business is ultimately about making money for ourselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's the way it should be. But one can engage in business, provide service and goods to others, and do it without feeling general contempt for those that we are doing business with.
It takes two to do business.
I don't particularly always like my customers, but I treat them very well because that's what they are paying for, that's what they (reasonably) expect, and that's the way I expect to be treated when I'm paying someone else for service/goods. And it is just business. It makes no sense for me to dislike my customers since without them I would be out of work. I benefit from them, they benefit from me. But if I spent most of my working days generally loathing my customers it would be time for me to change my line of business or take a good long look at myself and figure out why it is I am projecting so much negativity on to the people I am doing business with. They are just people, not so different from myself.
And last. Anyone who would look down on a man for wanting to pay for sex... You are way too conservative to be working in a strip club. Who gives a shit if he does... It's just sex. Big fucking deal. That doesn't make him scum... Doesn't make him a pervert. He just wanted sex. Just like 99 percent of the planet does. If he has to pay for it... That's what he does. Big woop.
This is probably why you have a generally cool attitude about your work, and the customers. Because you don't overvalue sex, or see men as "scum" for being driven by it. It's just sex, but here we are, so many beliefs and emotions that have us dancing around how we feel and think because sex is involved.
A point of irony : If men had lesser sex drives, or if all men met societies ideal of winner (attractive, wealthy, famous, charming, you know) so they could get sex from the women they wanted it from when they wanted it, they'd have no need to go to strippers or escorts. If that was the way reality was (it isn't) we wouldn't be having this discussion and the girls that dislike the work would be forced to do something else. Careful about biting the hand that feeds you. ;)
Jenny
07-14-2005, 08:32 AM
Maybe on the outter level. I think they're just, you know, stories. You guys are trying to read WAY too much into why people post 'em.
Okay. I don't know exactly how to say this - but people who spend quite a long time hunched over a keyboard typing out their little reports have a reason for it. Is it that they find it fun? Well, yes, obviously. Duh. I think what I was examining was WHY it was fun. And I kind of realized that very few of you (if any) were jerking off to the TR. That was my point. As for looking too hard at it - I don't know. Maybe. Like in terms of are there better things I could be closely examining? Maybe. But, for me, this is the kind of thing I just like to do - take innocuous conversations and closely read for patterns and meaning that are so deeply implicit that we don't see that they are there. I do similar things with television (by the way - Shrek 2 was sexist). If you don't enjoy it - hey, takes all kinds.
Hating customers.... Yeah, it sounds like bullshit posturing to me.
Okay. It's fine if YOU don't hate your customers. Power to you and your positive work environment. But you think that the girls who say they do are lying?
And if you are disgusted or even bored by every customer you have had, (not naming names so don;t botehr replying say 'Hey Helle, I never said I felt that way!') then you're missing part of what makes dancing fun.
Not everyone find work fun. Sometimes it is just work.
But because they want to fuck me or pay to fuck me, I never looked down on it... More, I was flattered.
Interestingly enough, I am not. In fact most of the time when grungy (or even clean) old men try to date me (especially for free) I'm a little insulted - like I'm 28, moderately pretty and wildly charming (this comment notwithstanding). You really think you're the best I can do? What's with that?
If a man wants to buy me a drink or a dance, I dont read so much into it. I don't look at the motives and say 'Oh, what a pervert, he wants to cop a feel or try and fuck me'. I just think he wants to buy me a drink or a dance and ladies, some of you are BAD stuck up. If you think that's all EVERY customer wants... No. Sometimes a rose IS a rose. Sometimes THEY JUST WANT TO BUY DRINKS. Or a dance.
Oh honey. I don't know whether to call you naive or... I don't even know. It is VERY safe to assume that most customers want to feel you up. That is, after all, the service we provide. I don't think that imagining that when a guy (in a strip club) is talking to you (as a stripper), he is working out how little he can pay to shove his fingers into your vagina is stuck up. I don't even know what shape your self-esteem and ego would be to convert THAT into a vanity issue. I would think, on the contrary, that imagining that your beauty are grace are such that men are just incredibly captivated and forget all about theT & A surrounding them is closer to being stuck up.
The factor missing in all this is that each individual is an indivudual. There's so much generalizing in these posts that.. that no one can be right. Not ALL customers, or even MOST customers do or want the same thing. Same with strippers.
Well yes. But one can still certainly recognize patterns in conversation and behaviour.
And last. Anyone who would look down on a man for wanting to pay for sex... You are way too conservative to be working in a strip club.
Okay - this is demonstrably not true. For many of us it is a place to work - not think well of people. The fact that customers are your bread and butter is a reason to keep them, be polite to them etc., not to like them.
You guys think too much, sometimes. I love all of my regulars because... I don't know. Something almost intangible. They aren't just customers, they're friends. And while it's a relationship that stays in the club, it's still more important than the connotation you put on the world customer.
Look, again - that's great and sweet and very cuddly. I most certainly do not love my customers, and I don't cultivate regulars because... well, I guess I just don't like them. But again - you certainly can't go around insisting that all dancers feel the way you do, or saying that the way they feel is wrong.
Sorry this is long and maybe off topic. I read the first three pages of this discussion and got bored. Then why keep reading? Jeez, honey, there are plenty of tits and ass posts to read/respond to instead.
mr_punk
07-14-2005, 09:06 AM
The guy's aren't just posting for each other - if nothing else there is an implied female audience.which is why i liked the early days of SCJ. it was a totally separate site and not widely promoted on SW. as a result, not many people (both customers or strippers) knew about it. i can still remember when it was just JZ, DC, yoda, myself and a few others down here.
Honestly, I find trip reports of the "I-poked-her-there-and-prodded-her-here" variety dull, repetitious and (contrary to Jenny's insinuations) not in the least bit wankworthy.personally, i don't write TR, but if i did write them. they would be somewhat similar to the ASPD format simply for the sake of brevity. however, i'm sure that many people would find that format a lot more objectionable than the current one (talk about your cars and houses) not to mention the fact that you can't flog the dolphin to it. seriously, the TR haven't changed since day one. OTOH, the audience has changed.
Fair point about the implied audience, though I think we all know what we're getting into when we read here. It's like being a female reporter in the locker room--no one's going to take any pains to put you at ease.exactly. we've been doing it long before strippers started showing up. so, why make any changes for their benefit.
xdamage
07-14-2005, 11:02 AM
Okay. It's fine if YOU don't hate your customers...But you think that the girls who say they do are lying?
None of the following is directed at you specifically Jen, but here is what goes through my head -
Strange as it may sound, I can put myself somewhat into the dancers shoes and tell you that I couldn't do it. I could see myself ending up really disliking women if I had to put up with women I don't like invading my space, having to bs to them hour after hour, having to hustle them, and having to spend so much time around other employees who I have to watch my back around.
I guess the problem is when I read stories of dancers that really despise customers, it's not that they despise them that makes me wonder. I kind of expect that. So what is it then?
I spent too many years around a woman who I ultimately concluded just plain out liked being in a state of emotional crisis, constantly. I realized it gave her a sense of purpose and meaning to be the key character in a never ending drama in which she was perpetually battling villians and situations out of her control. Without that drama, her life would be pretty boring because she never seemed to accomplish much beyond dealing with the next drama. The longer it when on it her life, the less she accomplished and the more she needed drama to giver her life meaning. A downward spiral which she was unable to escape as her hole grew deeper and wider. And I realized that this was her version of what little boys do when they play cops and robbers and they imagine themselves as larger then life figures battling against extreme odds. For some people it can be fun to be in situations that suck.
Now I am not saying this is what motivates you or anyone specifically, but this is basically the red flags that go off in my mind when I see someone who is in a constant state of turmoil, who dislikes their work, who sees others as persecuting them or loathes others they interact with regularly, etc.
Then I quickly bin them out in my mind into one of two groups.
Group 1 - People who really have nothing going for them, and I feel pity for because they are trapped, either through being forced into doing what they do (e.g., children in sweatshops in impovershed countries), or they just don't have the mental and physical capabilities needed to get out of their situation.
Group 2 - People who have a lot going for them including intelligence, good looks, youth, drive, etc., and could work in other areas.
I guess the problem for me then is that when I see dancers posting here who are clearly intelligent and driven, and who I infere are young and good looking, I assume they fit my group 2 category.
And I tend to cut my group 2 category people little slack (in terms of feeling pity) when they tell me they don't like what they are doing in life. I can't help but think, if you really dislike what you do, THEN DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, unless the truth is they really do enjoy the drama, the feelings of loathing for others, etc.
Strange as it may sound, I do enjoy what I do for work most of the time. It's still *work*, and not my first choice of what I would do if I could do anything, but it brings me a lot of fullfillment and many days I look forward to going, even after doing it for a long time. I could be making more money, but I like what I do. Work and fun in life are not mutually exclusive.
I really can't relate to doing something day in and day out that you basically dislike when the person has options. Yes, they may have to accept less money, but so do well make that choice. I just basically assume that if they don't change it's because money is their first priority (no pity then, you chose), or that fundamentally they really enjoy the drama and being at the center of a never ending "my life" sucks crisis (and again, no pity for this). Being in a state of crisis can be a lot of fun for some personality types.
So what am I missing? How is that someone bright, young, driven, attractive, ends up doing something and staying in something year after year, that they don't like, they don't like the people they do it for, they come across as mostly unhappy doing it, etc. What am I missing? What are they getting out of it? Do they really feel they are trapped and they can do nothing else? Is it the money? Are they actually getting something out of it? Is the drama and dislike of men/customers deep down something they enjoy feeling? What?
Jenny
07-14-2005, 11:44 AM
None of the following is directed at you specifically Jen,
Well, if it was, I would tell you that I am not talking specifically about me. I have a hard time defining how I feel about customers, and this is related to how customers feel about me. First thing is - they don't respect you. Like even if they DO respect you, that is a respect they feel entitled to bequeath upon you, not one you automatically possess. The ones who declare themselves gentlemen and say they would never try to finger you without permission - this is something they are GIVING you. Not something to which you are entitled. We all pretend over on this board that the strip club transaction is simply about service, (whereas on the pink side we only pretend that for some purposes), but that is not true. If it were just about getting handjobs or other forms of sexual gratification we know perfectly well nobody would be in strip clubs at all, much less would you get guys being offended by "wanna dance" behaviour, or being captivated by personalities, wanting to get to know girls, etc. If it were just fee for service then everyone would be calling the appropriate service (parlours or escorts). In clubs what is being bought is suspiciously like your person, your personality etc., all drawn into one big bag. It can be hard not to despise the people who are buying you, especially because we all know perfectly well that what they are really trying to buy can't be bought. It's sometimes precisely the fact that they (the customers) do seem so normal that can set it off - like "What is the matter with you?", you know?
On the other hand, I have had fun with customers. In the past I have dated customers (although that's not something I see myself doing in this city). I have enjoyed dancing - and I'm one of relatively few girls who will admit to (well, sometimes) getting turned on while dancing. Probably if I were serving food I would get really sick of watching people eat, right?
Anyway, for the rest of the question - why do girls stay with dancing if they don't like it? Well, this one is actually pretty easy. I'm sure some people from every occupation are the drama queens you describe. However, people from many occupations feel very trapped in their jobs. Stripping you have to keep in mind is a very low skill job, usually populated with fairly young women who don't have a lot of skills or experience. As they get older, they still don't have a lot of skills and experience (this is why I will not give advice to girls thinking about getting into the industry), they are just older. Getting your first "real" job seems like less and less an option. However, your money keeps shrinking - here on stripperweb we have a remarkable group that seems to average out at 600 a night. Dancers in general across the states seem to average quite a lot lower - I would reckon somewhere in the vicinity of $75. When I was in Montana a girl left the club to go work at a new Petsmart. She was very excited to be making more money. Yes, I'm serious. The decision to quit when minimum wage is more than what you make as a dancer is hard enough when you take their inertia into account. If they are making reasonably good money, that is a very hard decision. Truthfully - say you are averaging $300 as a dancer. You hate your customers. You would still give that up to work 8.15 retail? Probably not. And going back - inertia. This is what prevents most people from making positive life changes. They watch TV instead.