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xdamage
07-14-2005, 12:26 PM
Jenny, I can't find fault with that response. And that's about what I would think are the reasons. Yes, making money can be a powerful motivatior to keep on doing something, no matter how much we dislike what we have to do for it.

xdamage
07-14-2005, 01:39 PM
Some quick comments on your other comments -


First thing is - they don't respect you. Like even if they DO respect you, that is a respect they feel entitled to bequeath upon you, not one you automatically possess. The ones who declare themselves gentlemen and say they would never try to finger you without permission - this is something they are GIVING you. Not something to which you are entitled.


There is some truth in what you are experiencing regarding customers don't have an innate respect for strippers. It's complicated why and I get the sense that too long of a response is going to bore everyone, so, I guess I'll just leave it that, and say it's the nature of the situation, and the nature of how men think and feel which runs deep and wide in their genes.



We all pretend over on this board that the strip club transaction is simply about service, (whereas on the pink side we only pretend that for some purposes), but that is not true. If it were just about getting handjobs or other forms of sexual gratification we know perfectly well nobody would be in strip clubs at all, much less would you get guys being offended by "wanna dance" behaviour, or being captivated by personalities, wanting to get to know girls, etc.

If it were just fee for service then everyone would be calling the appropriate service (parlours or escorts). In clubs what is being bought is suspiciously like your person, your personality etc., all drawn into one big bag.


I agree with many customers are there for more than just sexual gratification, though I am a bit thrown by this too. Some of the customers here on the blue site have made it clear they just want the action, they don't want to get to know the strippers. They just want to trade $$s for service. But that seems to illicit even more of a negative response then those who say they go for the personalities, the smiles, and so on. Maybe I read that in between the lines and it's just isn't so.



It can be hard not to despise the people who are buying you, especially because we all know perfectly well that what they are really trying to buy can't be bought.


This reaction I don't think I can relate too. You find nothing about that flattering?



It's sometimes precisely the fact that they (the customers) do seem so normal that can set it off - like "What is the matter with you?", you know?


The customers are normal in the sense that they are just the same normal guys you run into outside the club. It's the situation that's not normal.

If you've ever been in a small plane or piloted one, you know that you can very quickly become disoriented. It's not because the pilot's brains aren't nomal, it's because pilots brains have eons of genetic training identifying where they are from the ground, not from up in the air. But given enough time up in the air, pilots slowly but surely become acclimated and they become less and less easily disoriented.

Remember, you're there 8 hours a day, 5+ days a week. You see the place behind the scenes, and you're there whether you want to be or not. The customers are there for a few hours here and there, and they are there to indulge themselves. Throw men in with a bunch of sexy woman, dressed in enticing clothing, bathed in perfume, with the lights turned way down, with the woman touching the guy in a sexual way, telling him how wonderful he is, and even a normal guy can become disoriented and not act in ways the would act outside of the club.



Probably if I were serving food I would get really sick of watching people eat, right?


Or disillusioned with the food itself. Ever seen what goes on in some kitchens? Gads.

The Snark
07-14-2005, 03:19 PM
It is VERY safe to assume that most customers want to feel you up. That is, after all, the service we provide. I don't think that imagining that when a guy (in a strip club) is talking to you (as a stripper), he is working out how little he can pay to shove his fingers into your vagina is stuck up.
I don't think this is entirely true. Of course, when a man enters a strip club he is clearly there to purchase sexual/sensual services of some kind. But then customers are not simply sex-crazed automatons with a single-minded desire to stick a finger up one of your orifices. They're human beings with a complex set of motivations that, more often than not, they don't even understand themselves.

Given the nature of the adversarial relationship between strippers and their customers, it's perfectly understandable that you feel that the only thing they have on their mind is obtaining maximum services for minimal money. But I don't think that's necessarily always the case.

The other day I was having a very interesting conversation with a dancer--not just the usual vapid strip club repartee, but a really involved discussion about art and music. At the end of the conversation, she looked at me apologetically and said, "I'm sorry I talked to you for so long; I just enjoy chatting with you. If you want to get dances from some other girl I don't mind."

I was a little taken aback. I told her that I was the one who ought to apologize, since she was there to make money and I had wasted a good chunk of her time.

Honestly, the last thing on my mind when I was talking to her was the possibility of feeling her up--I was just engaged in the conversation. Both of us knew how the other was supposed to act within the context of the strip club: in my role as customer, I should have been angling to get as much mileage as possible; and in her role as stripper, she ought to have been trying to lighten my wallet in as short a time as she could. But we're not just strippers and customers: we're human beings. And sometimes our humanity slips out. It's rare, it's messy, but it does happen.

mr_punk
07-14-2005, 06:11 PM
Now I am not saying this is what motivates you or anyone specifically, but this is basically the red flags that go off in my mind when I see someone who is in a constant state of turmoil, who dislikes their work, who sees others as persecuting them or loathes others they interact with regularly, etc.well, the motivation is pretty simple and not uncommon when it comes to sex work. like jenny said, it's the money. if a sex worker stays in the business for any length of time. many of them don't plan for that graceful exit from the business or if they do leave. it's not suprising for some them to return for an encore performance because they've just recieved a harsh reality check. for example, take living on a budget or within your means. it's a skill that you probably take for granted. well, that might be foreign concept to a stripper. when you're young, starting out and not making much money. you're pretty happy if you have $20 and a six-pack of beer after paying your all your bills. however, as you get older and you start to move into your peak earning years. yes, you're making more money, but you still have those skills to rely upon. it can be the opposite case with strippers because everything happens in reverse. it must be a bitch for an ex-stripper in her thirties to walk out of her entry-level position and see a pair of expensive shoes while window shopping and reach in her purse for a wad of cash money that isn't there anymore.

First thing is - they don't respect you. Like even if they DO respect you, that is a respect they feel entitled to bequeath upon you, not one you automatically possess.that's respect with a "r" and not a "R", right?

If it were just about getting handjobs or other forms of sexual gratification we know perfectly well nobody would be in strip clubs at all, much less would you get guys being offended by "wanna dance" behaviour, or being captivated by personalities, wanting to get to know girls, etc.generally, i agree to a certain extent.

Some of the customers here on the blue site have made it clear they just want the action, they don't want to get to know the strippers. They just want to trade $$s for service. But that seems to illicit even more of a negative response then those who say they go for the personalities, the smiles, and so on. Maybe I read that in between the lines and it's just isn't so.bingo, that's where my agreement ends and to answer your question. you're right, it can illicit a negative response because it seems ungentlemanly to nakedly objectify a woman from the neck down. IOW, it may be difficult for them to treat a sex worker like....well..a sex worker or sex object.

I've never seen a particularly satisfying answer (and by satisfying I mean "feels true" not is palatable) to the occasionally posed question about why these guys choose to go to strip clubs instead of, for example, parlours.<snip>I think one possible reason is (and I know I've said this before) conquest. The idea that the girl is giving up something she doesn't want to give up.true..but it's a ridiculous notion. like i said, many, many times, "free will it's a bitch". you really can't buy anything from a stripper unless she gives it of her own free will.

Another is (this is kind of a weak one) that you like to drink - although if I were getting serviced I would probably just drink before or after.yeah, that's pretty weak, but here's another thought. i've said it before, but some guys (not me) tend to strictly patronize or favor strippers because their emotional barriers tend to be more open and less guarded compared to an escort or even a MP. when you couple this with the fact that many customers don't see getting a BJ from their ATF as an act of prostitution because going to a sc isn't the same (obviously, this isn't canada) as seeing an escort or going to MP. like you said, it isn't just about the sexual gratification with those customers.

In clubs what is being bought is suspiciously like your person, your personality etc., all drawn into one big bag. It can be hard not to despise the people who are buying you, especially because we all know perfectly well that what they are really trying to buy can't be bought.if you're talking about a customer trying to buy a stripper's friendship, love, respect (that's "R"), etc. you're preaching to the choir. i've said that on many occasions. OTOH, if they're interested in a simple BJ. well, that's a more realistic goal in this golden age.

This reaction I don't think I can relate too. You find nothing about that flattering?if she's talking about what i think she's talking about. i think i can understand the reaction. every man has a similar story. it's sort like a when you're young and you're absolutely besotted about this one girl. you're wrapped around her finger or she may be using you just because she can and she has big tits. she couldn't care less if you've lived or died, but you're too infatuated or too busy trying to impress her to realize it. well, strippers are like the girl.

strippers tend to view customers trying to buy love or affection or something they're not giving of their own free will as suckers. a customer looking at a stripper (who feels nothing for him at all) with goo-goo eyes and acting lovey-dovey can be pretty creepy. still, unlike the young girl you're crazy about. they have to put up with that creepiness in order to get the cash which probably generates some amount of self-loathing or contempt for the customer.

Helle
07-14-2005, 06:45 PM
But where do you draw the line?

Do you only dislike customers of YOURS? or do you hate all patrons of your strip club? Or do you hate all patrons of all strip clubs? And if this is so, how do you know if they ARE a regular at a club or not? Do you ask them? And if you meet a man you like, before you would date him, do you ask if he's spent money before or regularly at clubs?

And for that matter, do you disrespect every man who tries or wants to date you because they, at the base of it, want to fuck you?

Strip club men are like EVERY man. They just have the money to come spend. If I go to the mall looking all hot and cute, I'm sure the ratio of men who want to fuck me is going to be the same as in the strip club. The difference is, these men will not give me money for being cute; they'll try to impart there numbers on me for free.

If I go to a regular bar and a man wants to buy me drinks to talk with him all night, should I look down on him?

The idea of losing respect for someone becaause they want to blow money on you--even be it for purposes of trying to fuck you--just screams low self esteem. It's like, at base, you're saying--This guy is lame because he would blow money on me. How pathetic.

Shit, I think I'm the best way a man can blow his paycheck, haha.

I do have respect for all of my regulars and that's not lipservice. And I'm sure they probably all DO want to fuck me... So do most of my male friends. But as long as they can be civil, a normal functioning human being with a sex drive and pretty words...l then they're no different from me, really. If that's 'cute and cuddly', then call me fluffy. I just see it as feeling how I wanna feel. And personally, I'd RATHER be a happy, optimistic, cuddly dancer than being bitter or disgruntled because of my job.

I mean... just to say 'well most customers act this way so they all suck'... it's just way too much generalization and not enough credit towards people as a whole and individualy.

Clark
07-14-2005, 07:35 PM
This is the kind of thread I was hoping for when I joined this site.

I do have a tendency to give those sort of lovey-dovey looks to strippers. In the past coupel weeks, two customers have mistaken me for a stripper's boyfriend. (Different strippers.) One of the strippers has started teasing me about how I should bring candy and flowers. But then, two other customers mistook me for a pimp and a drug-dealer, so I don't I think I always project the hapless PL image.

I have basically no emotional defences in the club except what's built into my personality (which is a pretty substantial amount.) I get to be guarded plenty at work (service industry job), there's no reason I would pay to go be even more guarded. My ATF knows more about me than pretty much anybody.

Part of this is because I know I'm unexploitable. For one thing, I'm clear-headed enough about the whole thing I'm pretty sure I could see through any cold-hearted play. Also, I'm far from rich and giving basically all the money I can spare to strippers anyway, so there would be no benefit to anyone who tried. If someone took advantage of me to help them move or give them rides or give free fashion advice (my paying job), I wouldn't really mind.

That said, I don't think i could enjoy a lot of the clubs I've read about. At my usual haunt, lds are $25, the VIP area is just a place to sit in full view of the rest of the club where it isn't so loud. No extras are going on, there is little drug use among the dancers (except weed) and drama is generally low. I have never had a dancer make a direct negative comment to me about any other.

In the customer type list, I'm clearly cai.

Without naming names, I'd say a lot of the dancers people are complaining about don't have anything in particular against customers. If you look at the other posts, a lot of them hate the club owner, the bouncers, the bartenders, the DJs and the ither dancers. I don't think I could enjoy a club like that.

I'm not sure if I got lucky on clubs or dancers or this board just makes the misanthropy seem more prevelant than it is, but I'm grateful, however it is.

xdamage
07-14-2005, 08:09 PM
This is the kind of thread I was hoping for when I joined this site.


I was expecting it to be cut, but it's good to see the moderators aren't heavy handed about threads that go off into such areas.

xdamage
07-14-2005, 09:45 PM
But where do you draw the line?

Strip club men are like EVERY man.

And I'm sure they probably all DO want to fuck me... So do most of my male friends. But as long as they can be civil, a normal functioning human being with a sex drive and pretty words...l then they're no different from me, really.

Like you said, wanting to fuck, wanting to touch, this is normal. And many guys date with the only intent being to find a woman who will fuck. If it doesnt work out after a date or two, they move on try with someone else. That would seem more despicable in a way than a club patron who is at least clear and honest about what their intent is.

Casual Observer
07-14-2005, 09:52 PM
But I've never met a customer who, given the option, wouldn't want to touch me. Or rather, I've never met a customer interested in talking and spending time with me who wouldn't want to touch me, given the option.

And that's different than when men objectify you OTC how, exactly?

The only thing women hate more than being a sexual object is not being a sexual object, and I simply cannot abide by people that refuse to accept that basic fact.

Yes, I know dancing breeds misandry for some, and based on the preponderance of your posts, Jenny, you clearly fall into that category; such a perogative is your right--hell, it's even en vogue in our popular culture. I guess I just don't feel particularly empathetic, given that you (or any of the other anti-Y chromosome members of the board or industry more broadly) continue this line of work while you persist in expressing your utter disgust for your clientle and what they represent.

Like I said, I don't fault you for it, but I also certainly don't pity you.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 05:42 AM
that's respect with a "r" and not a "R", right?
Yes.
but it's a ridiculous notion. like i said, many, many times, "free will it's a bitch". you really can't buy anything from a stripper unless she gives it of her own free will.
Yes, but nobody (or at least I'm not) is arguing that customers are in fact raping strippers.


yeah, that's pretty weak, but here's another thought. i've said it before, but some guys (not me) tend to strictly patronize or favor strippers because their emotional barriers tend to be more open and less guarded compared to an escort or even a MP. when you couple this with the fact that many customers don't see getting a BJ from their ATF as an act of prostitution because going to a sc isn't the same (obviously, this isn't canada) as seeing an escort or going to MP. like you said, it isn't just about the sexual gratification with those customers.
Yeah. But like I said, I don't see why the guys who are ostensibly in it just for the touch (you, for example) go to strip clubs instead of other places. Must stress, I am not criticizing or telling you that you shouldn't (right now - I do reserve the right to say such thing later on in other conversations if it is convenient, but right now it's not at issue). I'm just saying - if it were really just for the touch it seems like those are the places you would go.



if you're talking about a customer trying to buy a stripper's friendship, love, respect (that's "R"), etc. you're preaching to the choir. i've said that on many occasions. OTOH, if they're interested in a simple BJ. well, that's a more realistic goal in this golden age.
I think my entire previous post was that nobody in a strip was interested in just the blowjob. If they just wanted a blowjob they would go to someone who specializes.


if she's talking about what i think she's talking about. i think i can understand the reaction. every man has a similar story. it's sort like a when you're young and you're absolutely besotted about this one girl. you're wrapped around her finger or she may be using you just because she can and she has big tits. she couldn't care less if you've lived or died, but you're too infatuated or too busy trying to impress her to realize it. well, strippers are like the girl.
No not exactly. It's more like a steadfast refusal to acknowledge that "I" am not for sale, as opposed to the services I provide.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 05:52 AM
But where do you draw the line?
Where do I draw what line? I don't understand.

Do you only dislike customers of YOURS? or do you hate all patrons of your strip club? Or do you hate all patrons of all strip clubs? And if this is so, how do you know if they ARE a regular at a club or not? Do you ask them? And if you meet a man you like, before you would date him, do you ask if he's spent money before or regularly at clubs?
I don't have a policy - as I said. My feelings about customers are a little more complicated and changeable than ET. I am simply examining how such feelings may come about. Incidentally, I wouldn't date a guy who regulared at a strip club. I've done it in the past and it led to drama - and I only like drama when it's other people's.

And for that matter, do you disrespect every man who tries or wants to date you because they, at the base of it, want to fuck you?
What do you mean "at the base of it"? I mean I rather hope that most guys I date do WANT to fuck me, but it's not the one deep, over riding desire. It's not like "I wish we could just this date over with so we could fuck". You and I are obviously dating very different kinds of guys.

Strip club men are like EVERY man. They just have the money to come spend. If I go to the mall looking all hot and cute, I'm sure the ratio of men who want to fuck me is going to be the same as in the strip club. The difference is, these men will not give me money for being cute; they'll try to impart there numbers on me for free.
It's weird how annoying that can get isn't it? I remember going to a club with a bunch of girlfriends, and asking "Do girls just do this like every weekend? Just come in here and let a bunch of strange guys HUMP them for free?"

The idea of losing respect for someone becaause they want to blow money on you--even be it for purposes of trying to fuck you--just screams low self esteem. It's like, at base, you're saying--This guy is lame because he would blow money on me. How pathetic.
See interestingly enough I think it takes a low self esteem to be flattered.

If that's 'cute and cuddly', then call me fluffy. I just see it as feeling how I wanna feel. And personally, I'd RATHER be a happy, optimistic, cuddly dancer than being bitter or disgruntled because of my job.
Absolutely - I was thinking that last post. To me you sound very young, and very cute and probably very fluffy and cuddly and god forbid that I try to rob you of that. So like I said - rock on with your positive work environment.


I mean... just to say 'well most customers act this way so they all suck'... it's just way too much generalization and not enough credit towards people as a whole and individualy.
Everyone just ignores the parts where I say "On the other hand..." don't they? This is not just a diatribe on why customers suck.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 06:32 AM
They say I want X, and you should say FUCK OFF it's my X and no X for you. And everyone is happy. But I can't really judge the guys if this is a normal human want.

That's awesome! "No X for you!" I'm totally saying that to someone next time I'm at work.


Is it really that the guy wants to touch the package that is so despicable? Or are you talking about touching you in other, less intimate, ways too?
I think I've lost track of this particular conversational thread. I don't find guys who want to touch me despicable (necessarily) but I don't think it's flattering either.



Well, yes - that was covered under the "what the lady volunteers" part of my statement.

Respect is freely offered and then freely accepted, rejected, ignored, or not recognized. No need to be patronizing.
Jay, I was teasing in what was meant to be a completely friendly way. I'm sorry if it came across wrong.


And that's different than when men objectify you OTC how, exactly?
What on earth has given you the idea that I like being objectified OTC? LIberal Arts background! Feminist! Think about it.


The only thing women hate more than being a sexual object is not being a sexual object, and I simply cannot abide by people that refuse to accept that basic fact. I cannot abide by people who don't even know me and who try to tell me that I want to be a sexual object. But wait - I suppose I can't actually stop you. I could use the ignore function, but that seems futile - I would still know you were out there thinking, possibly even typing that I wanted to be an object. Dammit. I guess we will have to "bide" for a while after all. Seriously man. This is completely not true, and while it is sort of funny as a catchphrase shouldn't be taken seriously. Wanting to be pretty and even to be perceived as pretty is not the same as wanting to be an object, sexual or otherwise. Trust me - I do not hate not being a sexual object. And most of my male friends - completely uninterested in having sex with me - at least in any visible and/or manifestable way. I have spent many an hour very contentedly NOT being a sexual object.



Yes, I know dancing breeds misandry for some, and based on the preponderance of your posts, Jenny, you clearly fall into that category;
The preponderance? The excessive number of my posts clearly shows that I don't like men? Wouldn't the excessive number of my posts show that I like you guys a little TOO much? The things wrong with that could fill a book - A) we are talking about reasons that dancers dislike customers (well, originally, it was about conversational patterns on this board. I did try to keep it there, but it didn't happen) not men. You can dislike customers and then go out with a group of guys and have a good time. B) As I said, this is not personal, it is certainly not a personal attack and doesn't represent my feelings towards every customer every time. I am simply pointing out various power relations that exist with the dancer/customer relationship. You can just try and dismiss that by saying that I obviously dislike men but... actually that's it. You can if you want to. Like I certainly can't stop you. Anything else I added would just be similarly dismissed.


continue this line of work while you persist in expressing your utter disgust for your clientle and what they represent.
Why do people think you have to like the people you work with? Lots of people work with people they don't like, and they would be considered ridiculously self-indulgent if they quit their jobs saying that they didn't like people. I don't understand the guys on this board who seem to think we owe it to customers to like and think well of them. As per mr. p - that is not something you get to buy. You get to buy certain behaviours, not feeling.


Like I said, I don't fault you for it, but I also certainly don't pity you.
you don't? Dammit! Because with your pity and $1.75 I could buy a cup of coffee.

I have no idea what I have said here that has given any of you guys the idea that I am looking for pity, either (especially!) for myself, or in general. I have tried to give the idea that maybe the same empathy that is extended towards everyone else in the world when they've had a bad day might be extended towards us, that sometimes our bad behaviour is a slip (just like other people in the service industry) rather than "typical stripper bullshit" and that sometimes we need to be a little bit defensive in order to avoid being sucked dry.

Interesting point. When I was 19 or so I had a customer who had AIDS (what I was doing then was closer to an air dance than a lap dance, so safety wasn't a concern - I don't think it's a huge concern now, but it wasn't a concern AT ALL). He was an immigrant (from India) and had come with his wife. She had already died. He had no friends because he was ashamed, he worked two jobs neither of which were high paying (he was 23) and his time with me was his only human contact in his life, besides the doctors and nurses that he saw regularly. He also eventually got a social worker, but I don't think he touched her. This is a heavy, heavy emotional burden. I have 3 friends who are professional, experienced psychologists who come home crying after days at work. Do you have any idea what that can do to very young girls who have (obviously) no training in psychology and no background in anything? (What do you do for him? There is nothing.) Who frequently have nobody they can talk to about their day at work? For whom the only pain anyone really understands is essentially physical? We don't grow scabby and calloused exclusively because boys are mean to us. It's because they make demands of us that we can't possibly fill.

mr_punk
07-15-2005, 06:46 AM
I assume a lot of guys go to touch the package.don't forget the very high mileage. i suppose that's why i rarely bother with the stage. what's the point? poking and prodding (among other things) some stripper while spreading her ass cheeks during a LD is a lot less boring than watching her on stage.

Does anyone really spend money just to talk?that's a joke, right?

That is so fucking lame I cannot fathom why any guy would waste his money on that.how about a stripper's sparkling personality and keen intelligence? for some customers, the experience is similar to talking to Condoleeza Rice or Margaret Thatcher in a g-string.

The idea of losing respect for someone becaause they want to blow money on youis that respect with a "r" or "R"?

I was expecting it to be cut, but it's good to see the moderators aren't heavy handed about threads that go off into such areas.nah, i have to admit. JZ and FBR have been evenhanded as mods.

Without naming names, I'd say a lot of the dancers people are complaining about don't have anything in particular against customers.i agree because it works like that for most people. for example, my feelings towards some of the strippers i've bought dances from is neutral. OTOH, there are some strippers whom i favor. finally, there are a few who'll never see another dime from me under any circumstances.

I guess I just don't feel particularly empathetic, given that you (or any of the other anti-Y chromosome members of the board or industry more broadly) continue this line of work while you persist in expressing your utter disgust for your clientle and what they represent.but even if that's true. i'm amazed that some of you guys have such a strong reaction or express surprise at this knowledge. it sort of reminds me of the vanilla dog drama of long ago.

Yes, but nobody (or at least I'm not) is arguing that customers are in fact raping strippers.raping strippers? the thought never crossed my mind.

But like I said, I don't see why the guys who are ostensibly in it just for the touch (you, for example) go to strip clubs instead of other places.when you say "touch". that's some reference to sex, right? oh, you poor girl. you didn't know, did you? then again, you're a relative newcomer. so, you probably had no idea. when i call myself a whoremonger. i mean it literally. i've never limited myself to just strippers. i like to have options...as many as possible.

I'm just saying - if it were really just for the touch it seems like those are the places you would go.well, if you ladies didn't make it such a viable option. there would be no need for me to go to sc. like i said many times before, tis truly a golden age of mileage. you ladies just don't strictly dance anymore. so, far be it from me to stop some stripper who willingly unzips my pants and frees willy.

I think my entire previous post was that nobody in a strip was interested in just the blowjob. If they just wanted a blowjob they would go to someone who specializes.like i said, i agree with you but only to a certain extent.

No not exactly. It's more like a steadfast refusal to acknowledge that "I" am not for sale, as opposed to the services I provide.we're talking about the same thing. my point was that you can never buy "the girl" either.

mr_punk
07-15-2005, 08:01 AM
How can you impute misogyny on a face buried in a butt crack for 98 consecutive days?an even better question. how does he breathe? it looks like he's packed in there pretty tight.

I cannot abide by people who don't even know me and who try to tell me that I want to be a sexual object.outside of a sc. you have a point. OTOH, inside of a sc. i've never met a stripper who didn't try to be a sex object. i mean, that's the whole point, right?

I don't understand the guys on this board who seem to think we owe it to customers to like and think well of them.because they're paying (not here but in the club) you biatches to be nice to them.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 08:27 AM
when you say "touch". that's some reference to sex, right? oh, you poor girl. you didn't know, did you? then again, you're a relative newcomer. so, you probably had no idea. when i call myself a whoremonger. i mean it literally. i've never limited myself to just strippers. i like to have options...as many as possible.
thank you for the pity, but didn't I just make a big thing about not needing it? So I take it back. Keep your damn pity! You've said yourself, what with the YMMV and different girls, blah, blah, blah that strip clubs can be hit or miss. So why keep them as an option?



well, if you ladies didn't make it such a viable option. there would be no need for me to go to sc. like i said many times before, tis truly a golden age of mileage. you ladies just don't strictly dance anymore. so, far be it from me to stop some stripper who willingly unzips my pants and frees willy.
I'm not arguing that you should stop her. Just that you shouldn't ENJOY it. No, I'm kidding. As I said above - it's viable, but still kind of hit or miss. And hookers aren't likely to EVER be all princessy "I can't believe all your interested in is blowjobs" etc. I said once before that I bet you are so soft and PL-ly in real life. You probably bring in teddy bears that say "I Wuv You This Much" on them and crap like that.


i've never met a stripper who didn't try to be a sex object. i mean, that's the whole point, right?
No. Dammit. I want to be a sexy person providing a service Not an object of any kind. Still a human being. It is the guys who keep insisting that if they up the price they can buy "me" who are the most objecifyey.


because they're paying (not here but in the club) you biatches to be nice to them.
I'm nice. What's the fucking problem?

xdamage
07-15-2005, 08:53 AM
I don't have a policy - as I said. My feelings about customers are a little more complicated and changeable than ET. I am simply examining how such feelings may come about.

I think that was my problem with ETs post - it came across as single, simple minded, we are good, you are bad type of think.

The ironic thing is I don't have entirely positive views about stripping, even as a customer. But my reconciliation for myself has come about by accepting that a part of me is a sex starved man, a part of me is a dickhead, a part of me objectifies woman at times, a part of me does not respect strippers, yes, a part of me sucks.

This is not all of me, and I have other beliefs that are strongly contradictory. For example a part of me feels guilt over visiting a strip club. I could spend that money on something more practical. A part of me feels guilt over touching strippers vs spending that time and sexual energy touching my SO. How does visiting a strip club fit in with my romantic idealizations of how it should be between me and my SO? Romantic idealizations? Yes, we guys have them. A part of me believes in romantic love, and a world in which a guy would never go to a strip club, he'd find a woman he respects, date her, marry her, she would never cheat on him, and so much else that doesn't match up with the way the real world is except in the movies and in children's stories. And even in that idealization the irony runs strong because the idealized man would never marry a stripper, why how could he? He's the kind of guy who wouldn't go to strip clubs, he finds the whole thing, making ones money by selling sex and objectifying women as revolting. Is there no irony in that?

But those "negative" traits are there because they have there place in who I am, they are not inherently bad traits given the proper context. Without those "negative" traits I'd probably be a useless wishy-washy self-indulging no-backbone child-like nothing of a person.

As long as all you're saying is that you have mixed feelings about your customers, then that works for me. It's the entirely lopsided, simple minded think, one sided, all customers suck attitude that I have trouble with. I also have no problem with a neutral business attitude (we are there to get turned on, you are there to make money) - that works too.

Sh0t
07-15-2005, 10:40 AM
Best thing in the world is to see a former hot chick realize she is a former hot chick.

In the blink of an eye, their whole outlook has been altered.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 10:55 AM
Not directed at anyone in particular but since you brought up this tangent -

I think most people who do object to being a sex object would find the world sucks pretty badly if they woke up one day and due to some unfortunate event (say an accident), found that they no longer were. The world is a different place for those who don't get much easy (no effort required) sexual attention from the opposite sex.

Again - my ongoing explanation that being sexy isn't the same as being an object. People wanting to have sex with you (although - really that is a vastly over-rated experience) isn't the same as being a sex object. And - by the way - people wanting to have sex with you doesn't necessarily mean that you are hot and pretty.

xdamage
07-15-2005, 11:10 AM
Again - my ongoing explanation that being sexy isn't the same as being an object. People wanting to have sex with you (although - really that is a vastly over-rated experience) isn't the same as being a sex object. And - by the way - people wanting to have sex with you doesn't necessarily mean that you are hot and pretty.

Understood, though for some people how the other person thinks is moot since they aren't wanted in that way at all, neither as object nor as a person to be desired. Different agreed, but for some the practical difference is nearly nothing. Others don't want them sexually and that can leave a big void in their person, their sense of self worth.

Casual Observer
07-15-2005, 11:55 AM
but even if that's true. i'm amazed that some of you guys have such a strong reaction or express surprise at this knowledge. it sort of reminds me of the vanilla dog drama of long ago.

It's not about surprise, it's about acknowledging the denial of that condition on the part of dancers. How can any customer (non-PL, anyway) be surprised at what so clearly lies beneath the surface of most dancers?


I don't understand the guys on this board who seem to think we owe it to customers to like and think well of them.

A dancer doesn't owe me adulation, but I'd prefer the same level of respect as I've proffered--I'd even accept demonstrated neutrality, at the very least.


This is completely not true, and while it is sort of funny as a catchphrase shouldn't be taken seriously. Wanting to be pretty and even to be perceived as pretty is not the same as wanting to be an object, sexual or otherwise.

You say tomato, I say tomato. Hair-splitting. It's also classically one-sided sexuality; the notion that women are only accepting of sexual attention on their terms, and that men demonstrating sexual interest under any other circumstances is wholly unacceptable, entirely threatening and inherently misogynistic by default.


Again - my ongoing explanation that being sexy isn't the same as being an object. People wanting to have sex with you (although - really that is a vastly over-rated experience) isn't the same as being a sex object. And - by the way - people wanting to have sex with you doesn't necessarily mean that you are hot and pretty.

Again, semantics, plain and simple. Your oft-touted liberal arts feminism lets you rationalize and compartmentalize that which is otherwise one and the same in reality and it smacks of dishonesty, or at least denial. Such is your choice, obviously.


It's weird how annoying that can get isn't it? I remember going to a club with a bunch of girlfriends, and asking "Do girls just do this like every weekend? Just come in here and let a bunch of strange guys HUMP them for free?"

Under what conditions do you not get annoyed by aggressive, interested men, Jenny? Supplicant males that just smile and wait for your liberated feminism to annoint them with your attention at your own discretion? Or are your only male relationships conducted with strictly homosexual and therefore presumably, not annoying, threatening or objectifying men?

And yet I get flak for noting themes of misandry (to whatever degree) in posts--and not just in this thread, either...whatever.

If I'm way off base about your attitude toward men, Jenny, then I apologize profusely, but I'm just reading the posts as I see them.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 12:33 PM
If I'm way off base about your attitude toward men, Jenny, then I apologize profusely, but I'm just reading the posts as I see them. You are. Way off base. No apologies necessary. I just assume you don't know any better.

A dancer doesn't owe me adulation, but I'd prefer the same level of respect as I've proffered--I'd even accept demonstrated neutrality, at the very least.
Okay, now I don't understand. I didn't realize we were talking about you specifically. Are you angry with some dancer who has been mean to you in a club? Do you have some specific grievance? Because I don't know how you act in clubs. You might really deserve snootiness for all I know. Are you talking about here? So you think that dancers who are still dancing ought to like you? I have no idea where your problem even is right now.


You say tomato, I say tomato. Hair-splitting. It's also classically one-sided sexuality; the notion that women are only accepting of sexual attention on their terms, and that men demonstrating sexual interest under any other circumstances is wholly unacceptable, entirely threatening and inherently misogynistic by default.
Yes, those pesky women wanting to be treated like human beings ALL the DAMN time. What the fuck is with that? Damn feminists.


Again, semantics, plain and simple. Your oft-touted liberal arts feminism lets you rationalize and compartmentalize that which is otherwise one and the same in reality and it smacks of dishonesty, or at least denial. Such is your choice, obviously.
Well it is my choice to be always - whether in the midst of sex or conversation - to be treated as a person, not an object. These are not semantics. That's like saying the difference between slavery and low wages is semantics. There are big differences there.

Under what conditions do you not get annoyed by aggressive, interested men, Jenny?
None. There are no circumstances. You've totally got my number. What's this even about, dude? You don't even know me, and your weird hostility is emanating through my damn computer screen. Get a massage or something. Not a happy one. Or - if it will relax you - a happy one. Whatever. I'm not judging you - just don't kill any small animals, okay?


Supplicant males that just smile and wait for your liberated feminism to annoint them with your attention at your own discretion? Or are your only male relationships conducted with strictly homosexual and therefore presumably, not annoying, threatening or objectifying men?
Again, with the hostility. Eat some ice cream or something. Do something you like. Learn to snowboard. Just chill, man.

And yet I get flak for noting themes of misandry (to whatever degree) in posts--and not just in this thread, either...whatever.
I didn't notice anyone giving you flak. Someone just disagreed with you. People never STOP disagreeing with me. You don't see me taking it all personal-like.

Casual Observer
07-15-2005, 01:13 PM
What's this even about, dude?

I thought my questions were pretty straightforward and valid. If you took them as hostile, that says more about you than me, Jenny.


I just assume you don't know any better.

Must be because I'm male, right?

;)

xdamage
07-15-2005, 01:53 PM
We don't grow scabby and calloused exclusively because boys are mean to us. It's because they make demands of us that we can't possibly fill.

Here you touch upon a valid point. Nobody wants to be responsible for someone else's feelings of emptiness, their emotional problems, their family problems, etc. That's a lot of bullshit to dump on someone you don't know well, and a lot of burden to carry for someone else. And it's really not good for the dumper, or the one being dumped on. It's actually very bad for the person doing the dumping as they get it into their head that they can use others in this way.

Strangely though this is why I think at least some of the blues here have the right idea. Keep it straight forward erotic dancing for $$$s. There is a lot to be said for keeping one's emotional problems, looking for girlfriend, want to find a soulmate, where's the love, blah blah out of the club, and just going to have a good simple time.

Jenny
07-15-2005, 01:59 PM
I thought my questions were pretty straightforward and valid. If you took them as hostile, that says more about you than me, Jenny.
You think the following questions (the only ones addressed to me in the contentious post, I might add) are straightforward and valid?

Under what conditions do you not get annoyed by aggressive, interested men, Jenny?

Supplicant males that just smile and wait for your liberated feminism
to annoint them with your attention at your own discretion?


Or are your only male relationships conducted with strictly homosexual and therefore presumably, not annoying, threatening or objectifying men?

Because to me, they sound hostile - not even funny-banter-hostile. Just bitchy-my-wife-just-slept-with-my-brother-and-I'm-going-out-it-on-you-hostile. I don't think finding your extremely contentious questions about what kind of men I like hostile is particularly revealing of my character.

xdamage
07-15-2005, 02:12 PM
Does anyone really spend money just to talk?


that's a joke, right?


Actually yes, I was being facitious.

Well it's not my dollars, but if I could I'd impress the following imagery on guys who pay to talk:

Imagine this. As you're handing over your $$s to talk to your ATF/pseudo-GF, she has one of those cartoon type bubbles floating above her head containing the words "I don't like customers. I don't like you. What a dumb fuck you are paying me to listen to your bullshit."

Still want to pay for talk?

Mastridonicus
07-15-2005, 02:26 PM
Imagine this. As you're handing over your $$s to talk to your ATF/pseudo-GF, she has one of those cartoon type bubbles floating above her head containing the words "I don't like customers. I don't like you. What a dumb fuck you are paying me to listen to your bullshit."

Still want to pay for talk?


Hell no.

I am positive I have never met a dancer who hates their job :/

If they fake it, FINE.

But still, I agree with Helle, sometimes a drink is a drink. And sometimes conversation is conversation. But when I know that I am eating into her money making time, I pay for it, whether she wants me to or not. And the latter has happened more often than not.

The point is, I go to have a good time. I'm sorry but if, <and I may be misreading this>, however IF someone who has such a distaste in what she's doing or rather who she's doing it for where to approach me, I would kinda be able to figure out soon this girl dislikes me and just wants the cash. I don't mind those girls, its not a bad trait, I just choose not to spend my money and time with those girls. If I get the vibe that this girl wouldn't stomp on my face if it was on fire, I move on to the next girl.

Not that I have any say in it, but if X dancer walked up to me, and in her head said 'This guy is complete trash' theres no way thats not going to affect her communication with me, it'll show and I'll move on. End of story.

My only ASSUMPTION is that if you do that to every guy, eventually only the guys that are trash and don't give a shit what you're thinking and just want to grope are going to become the standard clientel for you.

Now I took a loan out on these 2 cents, so be gentle.

xdamage
07-15-2005, 04:18 PM
When I know that I am eating into her money making time, I pay for it, whether she wants me to or not.


When I thought strippers were more or less neutral, I did the same thing, it's her time so it seemed like the right thing to do. But later I starting learning how many dancers really don't like their customers, worse, just have disdain for them. And unfortunately that's had the effect of putting me into major defense mode in the clubs (and the effect that I just go a lot less, and I spend a lot less). Part of that defense mode basically has come down to me assuming that 9 out of 10 strippers have a fundamental dislike for their customers. Now why should I tip an employee for talk when that's not what the company is selling, and when I can get talk free from some woman at a bar who is neutral or maybe even kind of likes me? I understand it's their job time, we are all on job time when we are on the job, but that's not whats on the menu. Stage tipping for dancing, on the menu. Lap dances, on the menu. But the negotiation time leading up to the sale, it seems retarded to me to pay for that when all I see is that big bubble above her head, "I don't like customers. I don't like you. You better pay me for this, but if you do then I'll know for sure you are a dumbass"

The attitude is bad for business, but it doesn't matter because there are always new customers coming in who will pay for talk time.

Helle is an exception obviously and I wouldn't have any problem paying for her time just cause. Not for her to talk with me. That feels lame to me, but because I'm okay with spreading the wealth and good cheer. But what good cheer is spread by giving your money to someone who fundamentally despises your presence?

Unless...



however IF someone who has such a distaste in what she's doing or rather who she's doing it for where to approach me, I would kinda be able to figure out soon this girl dislikes me and just wants the cash. I don't mind those girls, its not a bad trait, I just choose not to spend my money and time with those girls.


But I wonder with the odds being so stacked against you, how many guys basically just want to believe they can see through the girls when they really can't, but doesn't that go back to the same old thing, most guys deep down really believe they are the exception, that they can see through the smiling happy faces, the sweet talk, that somehow they really are special.

mr_punk
07-15-2005, 04:33 PM
You've said yourself, what with the YMMV and different girls, blah, blah, blah that strip clubs can be hit or miss. So why keep them as an option?well, that would a complete waste of effort on my part. it's like you're asking me to destroy my rolodex of hard-won contacts. you see, the whole YMMV thing only applies to new strippers not the ones i already..er..know. so, when i go to the sc to see the stripper who gave me a BJ two weeks ago...getting another BJ is as easy as unzipping my fly.

As I said above - it's viable, but still kind of hit or miss.like i said, only with the unknown strippers. although, i have built plenty of contacts in the sc and could stop chasing new strippers if i wanted....except there's nothing quite like a new piece of ass.

And hookers aren't likely to EVER be all princessy "I can't believe all your interested in is blowjobs" etc.no, but here's the strange thing about them. they like to talk just as much as strippers.......sigh.

I said once before that I bet you are so soft and PL-ly in real life. You probably bring in teddy bears that say "I Wuv You This Much" on them and crap like that.yes, that's so me. i really pride myself on being in touch with my sensitive side. i know how much you strippers just love a customer who's emotionally available.

I want to be a sexy person providing a service Not an object of any kind.oh really? and i suppose the next thing you're going to tell me is that you wear 7-inch platform shoes around the club because they're really comfortable and not because they make your ass stick out.

Still a human being.there was never any doubt about that, jenny. now, turn around so i can get a good look at your ass.

It's also classically one-sided sexuality; the notion that women are only accepting of sexual attention on their terms, and that men demonstrating sexual interest under any other circumstances is wholly unacceptable, entirely threatening and inherently misogynistic by default.sure. like i said before, "strippers try their best to be sex objects in a stripclubs". they wear platform shoes to make their asses stick out. if they're having a bad night, they frequently change into even more revealing costumes. they often look about the room to see if those changes is gathering any new looks such as the customer who says to himself, "s*#t, look at the big tits on that broad. i think i'll buy a dance". so, it doesn't matter if a stripper doesn't want to be a sex object in a sc because she's a sex object by default to many customers. what i don't get is a stripper's objection to being a sex object in a sc. after all, it's part of the reason why stripper make their money.

Mastridonicus
07-15-2005, 06:58 PM
But I wonder with the odds being so stacked against you, how many guys basically just want to believe they can see through the girls when they really can't, but doesn't that go back to the same old thing, most guys deep down really believe they are the exception, that they can see through the smiling happy faces, the sweet talk, that somehow they really are special.

Let me rephrase, if she's doing a good enough job that I can't see through it, then she still deserves the money.

However I havn't had the luxury of going to many of the super professional clubs, but the ones I have been, I have become friendly with the ones who can fake it. I can't explain how I know this, however, body language, conversational understanding, and memory never fail. You come in two or three weeks later and she remembers what you two talked about better than you do, and its a hint!

You can also tell monitarily, or I can. It pays off. I pay for company and the occaisonal lapdance. Sometimes I pay for company in the form of a lapdance <rules of the club> but I had a dancer pay me back money the next visit because I paid to much the first.

Granted it all could be me being nieve. Frankly I don't give a damn as long as the veil is never lifted. I can promise you one thing. I never walked into a SC saying that I'm garauntee I'm going to find someone who's honest, hot and likes me. I go into each SC with the same Point of View. I want to relax, escape, be myself, and have a good time. Whatever else happens is purely luck of the draw, which is why I like it so much!

::Mast::

xdamage
07-15-2005, 07:23 PM
I can't explain how I know this, however, body language, conversational understanding, and memory never fail. You come in two or three weeks later and she remembers what you two talked about better than you do, and its a hint!


Well that last bit, her remembering your talk better than you, to me that's just the sign of a good business person. It's what good sales people do, remember things about you, personalize it so you feel like your dealing with a friend, someone you can trust.



Frankly I don't give a damn as long as the veil is never lifted.


Well of course if you don't care, I guess you can enjoy like a magic show. You know it's all trickery but it looks so real.



I can promise you one thing. I never walked into a SC saying that I'm garauntee I'm going to find someone who's honest, hot and likes me.


I would hope not, not the right place for that.

My point though was why pay for conversation at a strip club would you could be spending that money on LDs or VIP time?

A lot of guys say they want converation, but if most strippers don't even like you, why pay for conversation? I've found that convo is easily had in a bar, for free (maybe the cost of a couple drinks, which you're probably buying the strippers anyway). Okay, well the women in bars aren't necessarily as attractive as strippers and they dont immediately jump on your laugh and tell you how cute you are, but on the plus side they women in bars don't immediately dislike you, and the convo can go on for nothing but the cost of drinks and the cost of 2 aspirin to deal with the hangover in the morning.

Clark
07-15-2005, 09:01 PM
I think it comes down to this: Many dancers are under the impression that their job is to give lds. But how many customers really just want lds? Most want a friend, or sex, or a girlfriend or a therapist or some reasonable substitute. If she can't be these things, what options does she have but to be callous or crack under the strain?

I think i have seen other successful strategies: One is to concentrate on the casual customers. They're less risky, emotionally.

This puts regular customers in a similar boat. If they care about the dancers, they'll be crushed when it becomes obvious the reverse isn't true or, if they do care, get crushed with their burdens right alongside them.

I'd think the key is for customers to be understanding of just what they're asking a dancer for and for dancers to be understanding of why customers come in. Judging by many of the posts on both boards, there seems to be a huge gap here.

Clark
07-15-2005, 09:19 PM
I should add that as many have said, strip clubs are a microcosm. Caring about people anywhere will quite likely get you hurt, maybe badly. I'm the kind of silly romantic who thinks you should do it anyway.

Dancers are thrown onto the job with less traing than the average Burger King employee. No one warns them of what th job involves beyond pointing out the locatiosn they need ot knwo in the club and briefing them on local laws. Many are quite young and don't have an instinctive grasp of this sort of thing yet.

TigersMilk
07-15-2005, 09:32 PM
This is just too much reading for my mind to begin to even think about doing.

sadbuttrue
07-16-2005, 04:43 AM
I forgot my name by about page 6.

>>>Sad<<<

yoda57us
07-16-2005, 04:57 AM
Well, let's see,

Customers are not attractive to dancers....never....never ever!

Customers shouldn't expect even the slightest modicum of respect from a dancer for tipping her or buying a dance-in other words for patronizing her in her chosen profession.
OTOH, guys who don't tip or buy dances are A-holes...so basically we can't win...

Dancers don't respect customers because we have to pay to see them dance naked or try to fuck them. Customers don't respect dancers because they dance naked and fuck strange men for money.

Got it, OK, Thanks!

xdamage
07-16-2005, 06:38 AM
Yoda summed it up nicely.

I'd say itis about time for a group hug.

SportsWriter2
07-16-2005, 06:50 AM
This is just too much reading for my mind to begin to even think about doing.

Oh yeah, it's like reading a tennis match. Personally, I think summers should be reserved for surfing and freaky sex. :)

mr_punk
07-16-2005, 06:57 AM
Well it's not my dollars, but if I could I'd impress the following imagery on guys who pay to talk:<snip>speaking for myself, my reasons for not paying strippers for convo is a bit different and it has nothing to do with a stripper's like or dislike of customers. frankly, i never found the convo with strippers to be that scintillating or engaging to the point that i'd rather sit and talk rather than buy a LD or perhaps i just haven't met the stripper version of Sandra Day O'Connor in a g-string that some customers seem to meet.

But when I know that I am eating into her money making time, I pay for it, whether she wants me to or not.that's nice, but you do know that you're not obligated to pay for convo. you're really not eating into her time. she's free to leave anytime she wants. unless, you're one of those black hole type customers and she can't escape your gravitational pull.

A lot of guys say they want converation, but if most strippers don't even like you, why pay for conversation?because it has nothing to do with the stripper actual feelings. sure, they may say that they're interested and that may be true to some degree. however, it's really all about getting an ego stroke and everyone likes their ego stroked to some degree. for some customers, getting one's ego stroked by a stripper can be just as satisfying as getting one's willy stroked. of course, i can't relate but that's just me.

xdamage
07-16-2005, 09:53 AM
because it has nothing to do with the stripper actual feelings. sure, they may say that they're interested and that may be true to some degree. however, it's really all about getting an ego stroke and everyone likes their ego stroked to some degree. for some customers, getting one's ego stroked by a stripper can be just as satisfying as getting one's willy stroked. of course, i can't relate but that's just me.

This is a good point.

I guess I don't get much of a sense of my ego being stroked, not under those circumstances.

Mastridonicus
07-16-2005, 10:51 AM
I think it comes down to this: Many dancers are under the impression that their job is to give lds. But how many customers really just want lds? Most want a friend, or sex, or a girlfriend or a therapist or some reasonable substitute. If she can't be these things, what options does she have but to be callous or crack under the strain?

I agree, tho I am sure that the dancers feel their primary job is to make money, most of them assume its only capable in some form of grinding and teasing. While that, I am sure, sells. Not all of us care so much. Gotta love the GFE, and in that environment, a girl not capable of being at least a receptical for conversation or at least regurgitate in some form of genuine friendliness she's going to put her interest elsewhere, not a bad thing, but hey, if she's not giving me what I want, I'm not going to tip. The tip goes to the girl who can chill and seemingly enjoy the convo, when I realize she's been talking to me for ten minutes, a healthy tip isn't out of the question, she may not expect it, but I wasn't expecting it either



I think i have seen other successful strategies: One is to concentrate on the casual customers. They're less risky, emotionally.

Yes, those girls need to do just that. Emotionally I am not a risk, but physically I'm not needy. I mean its been at least a month since I've been laid :D



This puts regular customers in a similar boat. If they care about the dancers, they'll be crushed when it becomes obvious the reverse isn't true or, if they do care, get crushed with their burdens right alongside them.

I just had a conversation with a dancer friend who had a regular treat her like a princess, or at least within his wallet's ability. He bought her 2 cars <cheapies but nice> a motorcycle I think, and some other things. She kept reinforcing that she cares what happens to him, but she's not attracted at all. Luckily she's not a drama fan so when he pulled the 'Try-to-make-her-jealous-by-dancing-with-another-girl' crap and other shit she was indifferent. Caused the guy to go apeshit. but Hey, imo, regardless of her actions, doing her job is going to lead to crazies one way or the other.



I'd think the key is for customers to be understanding of just what they're asking a dancer for and for dancers to be understanding of why customers come in. Judging by many of the posts on both boards, there seems to be a huge gap here.

I don't know. I think a great portion of the desire of clubs is based in the unknown. You'll never make it so easy unless you have everyone where a sign, and even then, its a dancers job to not only be competitive with other dancers but with your inhibitions. The quickest way to a man's wallet is right through the front of the pants. THE KEY is understanding that some people are equally turned on by an approach and interesting conversation as others are by slaming their nose in a chick's rectum. :D <Shameless Plug>

Thinking that there is a way to tell who these customers are when they walk in is crazy, but would take ALL the fun out of it :D

::Mast::

Phil-W
07-16-2005, 10:54 AM
I think dancers react to the way they're treated. They're there to earn a living by showing off their bodies and their customers react in very different ways. With some it's just a bit of light hearted fun, and with others it's part of a quest to get as much mileage as possible. A dancer will react totally differently to each alternative.

I've also found you can get a big difference in reaction from your personal demenour. Most dancers adopt an alternative personality while at work, and this personality can bear little resemblence to the dancer when she's away from work. It's like a mask they adopt when they get to the venue.

Personally, I've never treated dancers any differently when they're working, as if I would when they're away from work. They'll be offered a drink, polite conversation and, if the dancer's wearing a revealing costume, I usually avoid the temptation and keep my eyes on her face. The net result of my behaviour is that the dancer's "work mask" often slips, and you find yourself taking to the real her - who more often than not is a genuinely nice person.

I've always found that treating dancers like you would outside work is an either/or situation - if they start to drop back into their normal persona, they find it difficult to keep the detatchment that makes it easy for them to strip naked in front of strangers. More often than not a dancer I've become friendly with on this basis tends to become, (consciously or subsonsciously), a little uncomfortable being nude in front of me, and tends to keep her distance when dancing.

To go back to the original question - do dancers like their customers?

I think dancers like a small minority of their customers - most often people like myself who treat their job as entertainment and nothing more. The dancer thus feels comfortable in our company, and will genuinely like if we turn up when she's working.

I think most dancers have relatively neutral feelings about most of their customers - if they buy dances, keep their hands to themselves, don't make crude comments, have reasonable standard of personal hygiene and don't expect to see the dancer OTC, then they're just a source of income and most dancer's I know quite like providing a reasonable degree of entertainment in turn.

There is a subset of customers most dancers don't like - crude, cheap, smell, handsy, persistant about OTC meetings. It's understandable - behave in a manner that puts you outside the dancer's comfort zone and expect to be disliked.

In summary - we tend to treat people the way we're treated ourselves. If you treat a dancer with disdain or discourtesy, then don't complain if she returns the compliment.

Phil.

xdamage
07-16-2005, 12:10 PM
To go back to the original question - do dancers like their customers?

I think dancers like a small minority of their customers - most often people like myself who treat their job as entertainment and nothing more. The dancer thus feels comfortable in our company, and will genuinely like if we turn up when she's working.


The red flag for me is that it so often comes back to this, guys thinking they treat the dancers well, and so honestly believing they enjoy (or at least mildy appreciate) your business.

But I guess I'm finding the input from the dancers themselves the most informative. Not really surprising, just confirming.

So I digested all of that discussion, and here is the gut feelings I was left with (again, this is not a revelation, I didn't take on any major changes in understanding), but here is my gut summay (not directed at any dancer in particular):

To summarize, some dancers think of customers as scum for going to sex workers, and/or for seeking out emotional satisfaction in a strip club. Think of it as the male version of thinking of sex workers as dirty whores, looking down on women who trade their valuable bodies for money. These types see it as despicable that you trade your valuable emotions and fullfill your wants via the cheap, easy out, by paying for it.

For those types of thinkers, if you (the customer) go to a sex worker for entertainment you're scum, the type of guy who they would have nothing to do with in real life. And of course many women who are not sex workers feel this way, a man who use a prostitute is a loser, and a woman who is a sex worker is a slut and a whore. Of course it's just also supremely ironic and really quite an amazing thing to see the tangled web of logic a sex worker (who feels this way about her customers) requires in order to make sense of her own place in this situation, and see it in a way that leaves her feeling guiltless/pure.

I don't think these types like you. I don't think they like themselves or each other. I think they should strongly consider getting out of the business and seriously consider a more mundane job, because that's the kind of job that's going to attract into their lives the type of guy (and life) they are looking for. But I'm getting the feeling it goes deeper then that. Because despite all of those feelings, it's not such a bad place to be. To keep themselves in a position in life where they can spend most of it looking down on customers, keep men at a distance, enjoy the position while simultaneously complaining (aka drama queens). It's not so bad really. A life of men perpetually rolling through their lives wanting them (and they enjoy the powerful position of being able to reject them), and getting paid for this, sometimes well. Not so bad, even if it doesn't all add up.

The customers fundamentally see the inconsistencies the dancers with strong inconsistencies in their belief system, and what they do for a living, and fundamentally these types of dancers just aren't going to budge, they have way too much invested in their webs of self-view to acknowledge that yea, well, their views on sex work and what they do don't completely add up. A lot of pushing on this from the guys, but in the end, this is the way people are, in some areas we don't want to change how we think and feel (even if so many other people tell us that our views and actions don't jive, we prefer keeping things just as they are, maybe that's all we can handle).

Beyond those types though there do seem to be quite a large number of dancers who have posted here with varying degrees of views along the lines of okay, yes the men come in to be turned on, it's not the end of the fucking world that men are like this, and this is my choosen profession, and I enjoy it sometimes. But my gut feeling is this is hard to admit for some, as their peers (other dancers) then persecute them for having such attitudes. So they have to express their views carefully worded, to avoid being ousted by their peers, who they do need, for morale support if nothing else from time to time.

These types of dancers might actually like you, yea even more so the guys who treat them with respect. Maybe because they don't entirely devalue their customers as human beings, maybe because they are at a little bit more realistic about their own value as human beings (in and out of the club in real life). Maybe because they accept the irony of their own situation. Don't know.

If I'm surprised by anything I'm surprised at how many dancers spoke up and said, no I actually rather like many of my customers, and don't look down on all of them. I guess the puritanical, sex workers and johns are bad view doesn't surprise me. It runs deep in our culture and history.

Phil-W
07-16-2005, 01:42 PM
The red flag for me is that it so often comes back to this, guys thinking they treat the dancers well, and so honestly believing they enjoy (or at least mildy appreciate) your business.

To summarize, some dancers think of customers as scum for going to sex workers, and/or for seeking out emotional satisfaction in a strip club....I don't think these [dancer] types like you.

Beyond those types though there do seem to be quite a large number of dancers who have posted here with varying degrees of views along the lines of okay, yes ...this is my choosen profession, and I enjoy it sometimes...These types of dancers might actually like you, yea even more so the guys who treat them with respect.

If I'm surprised by anything I'm surprised at how many dancers spoke up and said, no I actually rather like many of my customers, and don't look down on all of them.

Firstly, I'll give you a personal example of how dancer and customer can develop a friendship. One dancer, (whom I get on very well with), has just got back from a months holiday. She phoned me yesterday and said that, as we hadn't seen each other for some weeks, it would be nice if I came down to her flat on Sunday so she could cook me a meal. It'll be a nice day - I'll take a bottle or two of wine with me, and we'll sit in her garden putting the world to rights.

The point in this is that she invited me - she likes my company, and she knows she'll have an enjoyable day. At some point in the near future, I'll return the compliment and take her out for the evening. The sole motivation in this is affection - we like each other [big time].

As to how the bulk of dancers regard their customers; well, one dancer had a sliding scale. It went like this:

Idiot.
Customer.
Customer-friend.
Friend.

She regarded a substantial minority of people in strip venues as idiots, (they were handsy, crude, etc.)

Many of the rest were customers - whom she regarded in a fairly neutral way. They were there to be entertained, and she was there to earn a living. If they could achive that in a amiable way, then both sides had a reasonably pleasant time.

There were a number of people she regarded as "customer-friends". These were people she met at work, was pleased to see and always liked to sit down and chat with. There was no intent on her part to allow these people to meet her OTC - they were just people that got on in an amiable way and enjoyed each other's company for a short while.

Finally, there were friendships she formed with people she met while working. These were few in number, because she had no desire to see the overwhelming majority of her customers outside of work. Nether the less, on rare occassions, she did let people into her personal life.

The question of dancer enjoyment is a very sensitive subject. I'd have to say, in my personal opinion, many dancers get some degree of pleasure out of what they do, although most are very reluctant to admit it. This pleasure may not be of a simple sexual nature. It can come from the boost to their self estem that comes from knowing that men find them very desirable when working. It can also come from the feeling of power thay have over their customers when working - a good dancer can be very manipulative of her customers, gaining considerable personal satisfaction in the process.

As far as dancers liking their customers goes - I think you have to define the question very carefully. To my mind there are two questions:

(a) Do dancers like their customers purely when they meet them in the work environment?

(b) Do dancers like their customers enough to meet them outside the wrk environment as friends/lovers.

I'd have to say that most dancers are happy having a very amiable relationship with many of their customers providing that friendship is confined to work.

Very few dancers form friendships outside of work with people they've met while working.

Phil.

xdamage
07-16-2005, 04:08 PM
As far as dancers liking their customers goes - I think you have to define the question very carefully. To my mind there are two questions:

(a) Do dancers like their customers purely when they meet them in the work environment?

(b) Do dancers like their customers enough to meet them outside the wrk environment as friends/lovers.


I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

I'm no talking about how dancers feel about customers in the work environment vs outside the club. What I'm talking about is about a fundamental feeling about customers, men who use sex workers, in and out of the club.

I'm not talking about how dancers feel about men that are handsy, smelly, crude, grabby vs men that are polite, pleasant, neat, etc., although those can be important factors for dancers who are somewhat neutral, but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is a much more deep seated. How to put it in it's simpilist terms? It's the equivalent of a guy thinking of sex workers as dirty whores, and yet at the same time using their services.

Well some women, and yes some women sex workers, view Johns as pathetic losers for using sex workers, yet they work in the industry as sex workers.

It's that fundamental feeling, on which the sex worker builds a whole house of cards in order to cope with their own views vs actions, that I think is key.

The degree to which they feel this loathing about customers varies. Some of the dancers may feel twinges of it, but it's not an overwhelming emotion. Others though fundamentally find men who use sex workers despicable. The feeling runs strong and deep. Yet they go on working the sex industry providing services to these men. It requires a hell of a lot of self-deceptive web building for these women to cope with balancing how they feel about men who use sex workers with what they do for a living.

mr_punk
07-17-2005, 06:20 AM
Most dancers adopt an alternative personality while at work, and this personality can bear little resemblence to the dancer when she's away from work. It's like a mask they adopt when they get to the venue.noooo....we had no idea. seriously, this isn't amateur night in CC.

They'll be offered a drink, polite conversation and, if the dancer's wearing a revealing costume, I usually avoid the temptation and keep my eyes on her face. The net result of my behaviour is that the dancer's "work mask" often slips, and you find yourself taking to the real her - who more often than not is a genuinely nice person.it sounds like the old, "look, i'm different. see, how i'm not objectifying you by not talking to your tits like the other customers." routine. you know, that act in a sc is about as old as my bubbe's underwear. strippers may be flaky, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stupid as well. their "work mask" isn't going to slip just because you decided to, if i may quote jenny, "bestow" her with your favor in some way.

The red flag for me is that it so often comes back to this, guys thinking they treat the dancers well, and so honestly believing they enjoy (or at least mildy appreciate) your business.they can't help it. i mean, why wouldn't they believe that of themselves? if you have a stripper (who's getting paid by the customer) injecting a customer (who's paying the stripper) with massive doses of SS and buffing his ego until it's sharp enough to split atoms. it's no wonder that he begins to believe his own press. i don't see the a problem with the former. OTOH, the latter can become a problem.

Well some women, and yes some women sex workers, view Johns as pathetic losers for using sex workers, yet they work in the industry as sex workers.like when strippers become agitated when their SO goes to a sc or goes to sc without her? strippers know better than most customers that scing is mostly a sucker's game. they know that the average PL does walk in and out of sc on a daily basis believing that he's "special" and his ATF really "likes" him. of course, you'll never hear a stripper say that (with the exception of Kat). i mean, why kill the golden ATM.

xdamage
07-17-2005, 09:51 AM
it sounds like the old, "look, i'm different. see, how i'm not objectifying you by not talking to your tits like the other customers." routine. you know


That's more or less my reaction.

'If I engage in behavior X, stripper Y will like me more.' So sure, looking at her face vs her tits maybe even works to a degree but it still feels like a ploy to me to get a stripper to like you more, to be "special". There are plenty of women outside the club that would appreciate it too, would have you over for dinner, etc. Not that I am necessarily saying it's wrong to play the game, or play it well, just guys show know that you're playing that's all and keep it clear in your mind what's motivating you.



like when strippers become agitated when their SO goes to a sc or goes to sc without her? strippers know better than most customers that scing is mostly a sucker's game. they know that the average PL does walk in and out of sc on a daily basis believing that he's "special" and his ATF really "likes" him. of course, you'll never hear a stripper say that (with the exception of Kat). i mean, why kill the golden ATM.

Here you touch on another good example of a contradiction.

The thing is I can put myself in the shoes of the stripper with an SO and of course, what you say above is true, and why would I want my SO spending our money at strip clubs? why would I want my SO paying other woman to rub his dick? why would I want my SO to go when I know he (or she) could easily get sucked into the SS and start spending a lot of our money on some other chick? maybe even start developing a hang up over some other chick? Where is the win in any of that for the stripper?

But it's not the contradiction that I have a problem with. We all live with contradictions. It's the inability to acknowledge it, or more so, the extreme lopsided projection of negative feelings on to customers that's the problem.

But of course nothing we say here will change any of that. It's like dealing with the people in cults. They back each others beliefs so strongly that no amount of logic or discussion will change their fundamental beliefs (no matter how many people tell them their actions and beliefs just don't jive). I am convinced some strippers have joined the cult of man/customers haters and nothing we say or do will change any of that, so ...

I have a bunch of money set aside for my next SC strip. I'm going to self induldge and enjoy the hell out of it. If that makes me a male objectifying dickhead asshole, well then so be it.

Phil-W
07-17-2005, 12:58 PM
it sounds like the old, "look, i'm different. see, how i'm not objectifying you by not talking to your tits like the other customers." routine....strippers may be flaky, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're stupid as well. their "work mask" isn't going to slip just because you decided to, if i may quote jenny, "bestow" her with your favor in some way....i mean, why wouldn't they believe that of themselves? if you have a stripper (who's getting paid by the customer) injecting a customer (who's paying the stripper) with massive doses of SS and buffing his ego until it's sharp enough to split atoms. it's no wonder that he begins to believe his own press.

Mr Punk,

You get treated the way you treat other people. One of these "flaky" strippers invited me down to her flat earlier today. She cooked a meal, I brought the wine, and we sat in her garden putting the world to rights. It was sunny in London, and yeah, it was a nice, relaxing, enjoyable day.

There are several other dancers who treat me in a like manner. I don't get the SS -
not least because they're not interested in making money out of me. (If I see them in strip pubs in the UK: they have jug collections for the floor shows - and it's been these dancer's choice that they don't want me to contribute to their collection if I'm in the pub). Sure, I buy them drinks and give them a lift home afterwards, but that's what I do for any female friend of mine.

We pursue different objectives. From your post's you're interested in mileage. If I'm honest, the first time I met a dancer OTC we both had manipulative motives. She saw me as a source of cheap lifts - I wanted into her knickers. And you know what? The damdest thing happened - over the next few weeks we found we liked each other!

I'm pretty sure if I went chasing mileage I'd get it. I'm also pretty sure that my relationship with the dancers I see OTC as friends, (currently 4), would change. It's based on the fact that I'm more interested in them outside of work than in, (and it'd be a damned cunning piece of SS to invite me round their houses to fool me).

It's as I said at the start - you get treated how you treat other people. You chase mileage, I pursue friendship. We are naturally going to have very different experiences at SC's.

Phil.

PS: please don't interpret this as a dig at you - it's not. It's just I think we view dancers in very different ways.

Phil-W
07-17-2005, 01:16 PM
I don't think we are talking about the same thing....What I'm talking about is about a fundamental feeling about customers, men who use sex workers, in and out of the club....How to put it in it's simpilist terms? It's the equivalent of a guy thinking of sex workers as dirty whores, and yet at the same time using their services. Well some women, and yes some women sex workers, view Johns as pathetic losers for using sex workers, yet they work in the industry as sex workers.

Ok, we can agree on this. Most dancers I know who work at the "blue" end of the spectrum have a low view of their customers, (or clients as they often call them.) One dancer who does blue stags, (bachelor parties, I guess in the US), describes it as being as emotionally significant to her as cleaning her teeth.

I know her general views on her activities, yet I'd not care to discuss them in detail with her. One the one or two occasions it's cropped up she's made it very clear the subject's unwelcome. Frankly, I think it's because she gets embarrassed at me, (whom she regards as a friend), querying that part of her life.

Yes, there will always be a strange ambivilence in dancer's who operate in the "blue" margins of the job. They have a low opinion of their customers, yet they don't like to confront the moral imperative of what they do.

Phil.

mr_punk
07-17-2005, 04:04 PM
I have a bunch of money set aside for my next SC strip. I'm going to self induldge and enjoy the hell out of it. If that makes me a male objectifying dickhead asshole, well then so be it.sounds like a plan...welcome to the club.

You get treated the way you treat other people. i don't disagree. look..all i'm saying is that in a sc. the act of customers pretending that they're not really interested in a stripper's tits and ass (which is usually the whole purpose of going to sc) is pretty old. you're not the first PL to try it and in case you didn't know. strippers are well aware of the act.

We pursue different objectives. From your post's you're interested in mileage.well, i don't object to your objectives. however, i just think it's a bit hubristic not to mention condesending. if you think a stripper can't see through the act. IOW, her "work mask" isn't going to just slip because you're pretending to be more interested in her eye color than her cup size.

If I'm honest, the first time I met a dancer OTC we both had manipulative motives. She saw me as a source of cheap lifts - I wanted into her knickers.really? now, i find that hard to believe because to hear you talk. it sounds as if you're more interested in her eye color.

PS: please don't interpret this as a dig at you - it's not. It's just I think we view dancers in very different ways.no offense taken and don't you take this at a dig at you, but i don't think your objectives or views are all that different.

Yes, there will always be a strange ambivilence in dancer's who operate in the "blue" margins of the job. They have a low opinion of their customers, yet they don't like to confront the moral imperative of what they do.well, that's the good thing about the US. there is no "blue" margin. it's all just plain sex work.

xdamage
07-17-2005, 08:07 PM
Ok, we can agree on this. Most dancers I know who work at the "blue" end of the spectrum have a low view of their customers, (or clients as they often call them.)

Yes, there will always be a strange ambivilence in dancer's who operate in the "blue" margins of the job. They have a low opinion of their customers, yet they don't like to confront the moral imperative of what they do.



I do actually understand a state of self denial well enough to appreciate why it is that many sex workers live in it, and strangely, I think most probably need that self denial in order to stay functional in the business. In and of itself it's to be expected and that's the way the world goes round. I think my strong negative reaction is mostly just in response to sex workers who strongly condemn/despise their customers (sex worker users) while strongly believing they are pure, just doing a job, like serving burgers at McDonalds. Somewhere between extreme self denial and no self denial there is a healthy amount of self denial, and self awareness. Even self denial can be a good and useful tool under the right circumstances, just not to extremes constantly.

The thing that complicates it for strippers (at least in the United States) is they can live in a greater state of self denial then so called "prostitutes". The strip clubs in the United States you'll find that clubs, and the workers, vary from very mild to very hardcore. The strippers have a lot of say in how much sexual activity they engage in for $$s, where they decide to draw the line, and for that matter they can even get up and quit the business when they want to. But I think that just clouds this issue for a lot of them. Because the definition of what is prostitution is now this big moving target, any stripper living in strong self denial can draw her line, and paint a picture of herself that is less contemptable then being a prostitute. "I don't do [fill in the blank] so I'm not a hardcore sex worker like those other girls" From there it's easy to build up a set of beliefs in which they can go on feeling contempt for customers and avoiding any kind of self responsibility for their choices, their part in the situation.