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erotictonic
07-09-2005, 10:58 PM
I'm curious what makes you think that because you have to pay cash to a dancer to get her to fuck you, you're convinced that every other guy in the club is in the same position. To put it bluntly: Dancers, like most women, date guys who they want to fuck. They are not all 20-year-old unemployed musicians.

Final thought: If you ever want to upgrade to the point where a dancer actually chooses you, you may want to rethink your position on sexual generosity and, uh, technique.

You can't generalize what "dancers" want, as it is as varied as what customers want. Women don't necessarily date guys they want to fuck, they may date guys they want to marry, or for some other reason. I have only actually wanted to fuck maybe two customers in nine years, and I passed then. I don't know any dancers who actually wanted to fuck customers. Sorry guys, but customers just aren't sexy.


Mod note: Obviously, ET didn't start this thread. This thread was split from the OTC thread. Obviously, it was split a little awkwardly, with her quoting a post from the other thread. Sorry. That's the way it goes.

All Good Things
07-10-2005, 12:53 AM
Sorry guys, but customers just aren't sexy.

OK, I understand. You can generalize, we can't. Just want to make sure about the rules. ;)

Every time I see a post from a dancer who's been in the business since the Pleisticine and absolutely insists that she's never, ever, ever even remotely been attracted to, interested in, aware of, or vaguely conscious of the mere existence of the protoplasm that are "customers," it does strike me that she doeth protest too much.

But ET I'll take you at your word. I am just immensely grateful that my personal experience is widely at variance from yours. :)

xdamage
07-10-2005, 02:03 AM
OK, I understand. You can generalize, we can't. Just want to make sure about the rules. ;)


Damn, I want to generalize about something. I'm so disappointed :'(



Every time I see a post from a dancer who's been in the business since the Pleisticine and absolutely insists that she's never, ever, ever even remotely been attracted to, interested in, aware of, or vaguely conscious of the mere existence of the protoplasm that are "customers," it does strike me that she doeth protest too much.


The ones who protest too much... I just assume they are lesbian, or a man hater.

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 02:26 AM
Damn, I want to generalize about something. I'm so disappointed :'(



The ones who protest too much... I just assume they are lesbian, or a man hater.

Nope, just being honest. The ones who pretend they like you are pretending.

yoda57us
07-10-2005, 06:17 AM
Nope, just being honest. The ones who pretend they like you are pretending.
Well, If they are pretending to pretend than that means they really like us....right?:-\

At least you aren't generalizing....

xdamage
07-10-2005, 06:18 AM
Nope, just being honest. The ones who pretend they like you are pretending.

She doesn't like me? :shocking: OMG - so many delusions shattered.

Well that's it for me guys, guess I'll just pack it up and turn in my towel. Here I've been paying $20+tip a lap and I assumed she was grinding on my cock and telling me sweet nothings because we had something special!!! :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Mastridonicus
07-10-2005, 06:44 AM
you gonna be ok?

Buddy?

Do you need a hug?

Want a pepsi?

xdamage
07-10-2005, 09:36 AM
you gonna be ok?

Buddy?

Do you need a hug?

Want a pepsi?


Well I've gotten over the shock. Good news! I realize it's not quite as bad as I thought in those initial moments. Now that I've had time to calm down and think about it rationally I think I finally see, ... see oh yea, that nope, I was right. Some dancers are man haters and lesbians.:smellie_t

So I'm back in the game guys! Why you can call me "Cougar", aka Mr. Top Gun! :moped:

All Good Things
07-10-2005, 10:14 AM
Nope, just being honest. The ones who pretend they like you are pretending.

So when I have a real relationship with a dancer OTC, no money involved, go clubbing together, meet her friends, talk to her family, hang out at her place or mine, go out to dinner, have sex,...you know, what we all normally do in real life, she is still pretending?

I need to know this, because if it's true, there are a few calls I have to make to the Academy nominating committee immediately. :)

All Good Things
07-10-2005, 10:35 AM
The ones who protest too much... I just assume they are lesbian, or a man hater.

Well, for the record, that wasn't what I was suggesting at all.

The taboo against dating customers runs so strong that sometimes it seems to turn into a fanatical ideology, at least in public. It reminds me of the U.S. Marxists in the 30s who would spit furiously at the monied classes when speaking in public but then turned out to have half a million dollars squirreled away in a Swiss Bank account.

Like I said, I take ET at her word. My experience is simply different.

What has always been far more interesting about this board, particularly the pink side, is the radical difference between what appears (or is admitted to) in public posts vs. what we talk about in PMs. In my experience, the PMs are where we all let our hair down and take risks with each other and learn a lot more about each other. When we meet in person, it's through PMs. Based on my experience with the dancers or ex-dancers I have met in person or spoken to on the phone, or made arrangements with, PMs are where the "truth" lies.

Katrine
07-10-2005, 10:41 AM
Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...

Mastridonicus
07-10-2005, 10:44 AM
xDamage: Ladies call me, The Zapper.

I had a great time last night in a semi-local club that I think will become a fav soon. I'm a little screwed in the head by it, but in a good way. I gotta post it tho I'll get hung by my nutz for it.

yoda57us
07-10-2005, 11:01 AM
Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...
Kat: Are you freaking serious??!! Those hypocrites actually had the balls to ask you not to post up their?:O

Ah well, screw em'. You know us pervs and deviants will always love ya! ;)

All Good Things
07-10-2005, 11:02 AM
Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...

Yeah, but your honesty is why we all adore you, Kat.

OK, I lied, it's your fabulous ass. But you knew that already.

The darkness down here in the abyss has its advantages. If you can't see who is using that ball gag on you, you'll find the feeling of helplessness approaches bliss. }:D

Nicolina
07-10-2005, 11:04 AM
You can't generalize what "dancers" want, as it is as varied as what customers want.

Wait a minute, didn't you just generalize dancers as "damaged" women who want bisexual rockstar boyfriends that treat them like cum dumpsters?? /:O


Women don't necessarily date guys they want to fuck, they may date guys they want to marry, or for some other reason.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't marry a guy I didn't love to fuck.


Sorry guys, but customers just aren't sexy.

Okay, while I suppose it does depend on the customer, ET has a point here.

As I've said elsewhere, the dancer-customer relationship is a somewhat adversarial one, and dancers learn through experience that it is best to avoid any attempt to transform that relationship into something healthy and nurturing and real OTC. It just doesn't translate well.

Any dancer who survives beyond her first year or two in the business learns that it is a piss-poor idea to mix business and pleasure by seriously dating guys you meet in the club. I did fuck a few customers for free OTC during my first year...including one with whom I had a 3-year relationship (total trainwreck, of course...) After that, I just didn't view customers as viable options anymore. I could think to myself, objectively: "He's pretty hot. I'd do him." But I'd still steadfastly refuse to give him my number, or to call him if he gave me his. I just had a block about it.

However, this mentality applied only to customers I met ITC. When it comes to guys I meet anywhere else, I actually prefer to date men who have some experience with the Industry--preferably as casual customers (though a Junkie past doesn't necessarily rule them out ;)). I have trouble in relationships with guys who are clueless about the sex industry. They tend to get freaked out when my Stripper Self rears her ugly head.....

xdamage
07-10-2005, 11:40 AM
Well, for the record, that wasn't what I was suggesting at all.

No, you weren't suggesting that. Didn't mean to suggest those were your thoughts. Entirely mine. Then again some men hate women, or are gay and feel no sexual attraction to women (and some of these end up as male strippers) - so its all even steven in the end.


Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...

I've seen your posts. Your honest rocks. I love it. I think the guys love it in general. It's fucking refreshing. GO kat!


xDamage: Ladies call me, The Zapper.

I had a great time last night in a semi-local club that I think will become a fav soon. I'm a little screwed in the head by it, but in a good way. I gotta post it tho I'll get hung by my nutz for it.

sounds like a story we all want to hear



Okay, while I suppose it does depend on the customer, ET has a point here.

As I've said elsewhere, the dancer-customer relationship is a somewhat adversarial one, and dancers learn through experience that it is best to avoid any attempt to transform that relationship into something healthy and nurturing and real OTC. It just doesn't translate well.


Well you know, male/female relationships OTC are somewhat adversarial - surprisingly thats a good thing in the long run, even if it doesn't seem to be on the surface. But I digress...

Really my point was not dancers should date (or fuck) customers, or even be attracted to them, but simply that dancers that spend too much time telling us how much we all suck (we = customers) and how unattractive we are (without exceptions) makes me wonder? Soooo much energy poured into letting us know how much you don't like us, you don't find us appealing, blah blah ... what is the dancer getting out of letting us all know that? I'm thinking either* it's simple unemotional fact (in which case I'm thinking lesbian because its biologically unlikely a long term dancer would never meet an attractive customer) or its a subtle put down (in which case I'm thinking man hater).

*Edit by xdamage - Third possibility - the dancer who protesth too much works in a real skank joint that over the years only attracts the worst of the worst of men. Well then, move up to a higher class of club (if the dancer can, maybe the problem is the dancer is not that attractive and can't get hired in the better clubs?).

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 07:23 PM
Wait a minute, didn't you just generalize dancers as "damaged" women who want bisexual rockstar boyfriends that treat them like cum dumpsters?? /:O

LOL good point. Not ALL of them, but a great deal of them are damaged by the industry.



I don't know about you, but I wouldn't marry a guy I didn't love to fuck.

Again, good point. My point is though, that I specifically may date a guy I find a 10 personality-wise but only a 5 or so fuckable-wise. That only means that initially for a one-night-stand sort of thing I wouldn't be interested, but since I love him so much in other ways, I would love to fuck him. Initially, I don't necessarily choose to date guys I would love to fuck. I may date them for money, or because they can meet certain needs I have, or because we have so much in common and I genuinely like them. I have found in my experiences that the guys that are 10 in looks and fuckability are usually low on the personality and marriage scales, so it has to be a happy medium.



Okay, while I suppose it does depend on the customer, ET has a point here.

As I've said elsewhere, the dancer-customer relationship is a somewhat adversarial one, and dancers learn through experience that it is best to avoid any attempt to transform that relationship into something healthy and nurturing and real OTC. It just doesn't translate well.

Any dancer who survives beyond her first year or two in the business learns that it is a piss-poor idea to mix business and pleasure by seriously dating guys you meet in the club. I did fuck a few customers for free OTC during my first year...including one with whom I had a 3-year relationship (total trainwreck, of course...) After that, I just didn't view customers as viable options anymore. I could think to myself, objectively: "He's pretty hot. I'd do him." But I'd still steadfastly refuse to give him my number, or to call him if he gave me his. I just had a block about it.

However, this mentality applied only to customers I met ITC. When it comes to guys I meet anywhere else, I actually prefer to date men who have some experience with the Industry--preferably as casual customers (though a Junkie past doesn't necessarily rule them out ;)). I have trouble in relationships with guys who are clueless about the sex industry. They tend to get freaked out when my Stripper Self rears her ugly head.....

I'm really just speaking for myself. I've hardly ever found customers sexy. It has nothing more or nothing less to do with it than that. And no, I'm not bullshitting or some deluded pinkie. I fucked one customer in nine years and he sucked in bed. I seem to be speaking for everyone, but I can't. I know there are other girls out there that are just pretending like I was, I just don't know the actual percentage. Of course some girls are going to do things for the money. If they aren't getting paid, it may be for a myriad of other reasons. It just depends on the girl and the situation. I just feel comfie telling the truth because I don't dance anymore. Alot of girls will pretend, then when you are out of sight, laugh in the shadows.

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 07:28 PM
No, you weren't suggesting that. Didn't mean to suggest those were your thoughts. Entirely mine. Then again some men hate women, or are gay and feel no sexual attraction to women (and some of these end up as male strippers) - so its all even steven in the end.



I've seen your posts. Your honest rocks. I love it. I think the guys love it in general. It's fucking refreshing. GO kat!



sounds like a story we all want to hear



Well you know, male/female relationships OTC are somewhat adversarial - surprisingly thats a good thing in the long run, even if it doesn't seem to be on the surface. But I digress...

Really my point was not dancers should date (or fuck) customers, or even be attracted to them, but simply that dancers that spend too much time telling us how much we all suck (we = customers) and how unattractive we are (without exceptions) makes me wonder? Soooo much energy poured into letting us know how much you don't like us, you don't find us appealing, blah blah ... what is the dancer getting out of letting us all know that? I'm thinking either* it's simple unemotional fact (in which case I'm thinking lesbian because its biologically unlikely a long term dancer would never meet an attractive customer) or its a subtle put down (in which case I'm thinking man hater).

*Edit by xdamage - Third possibility - the dancer who protesth too much works in a real skank joint that over the years only attracts the worst of the worst of men. Well then, move up to a higher class of club (if the dancer can, maybe the problem is the dancer is not that attractive and can't get hired in the better clubs?).

Nah, for one I suppose because the topic came up and I gave my two cents, number two, I don't like guys that go to sc, but I had to pretend to for 9 years and now it's liberating to tell the truth. Alot of us don't like our customers, we just do it for the money. In general, customers have a deluded reality that I want no part of. That's why you don't see pinkies knocking each other over trying to post over here. Let's face it... they don't even like you, much less want to fuck you. I suppose I have as much of a problem with the delusions over here as kat has with them on the other side.

Jenny
07-10-2005, 08:00 PM
Really my point was not dancers should date (or fuck) customers, or even be attracted to them, but simply that dancers that spend too much time telling us how much we all suck (we = customers) and how unattractive we are (without exceptions) makes me wonder? Soooo much energy poured into letting us know how much you don't like us, you don't find us appealing, blah blah ... what is the dancer getting out of letting us all know that? I'm thinking either* it's simple unemotional fact (in which case I'm thinking lesbian because its biologically unlikely a long term dancer would never meet an attractive customer) or its a subtle put down (in which case I'm thinking man hater)
Okay. First - disliking your customers (even all your customers, even irrationally) doesn't mean you dislike men. I go off and on with this, honestly. Sometimes customer antics make me laugh and seem entirely natural - others, you seem like a pretty despicable lot. And really, although it is unlikely that you have NEVER met a handsome customer, you can go a while without seeing one, or without dancing for one (which is what makes him your customer, really).

Actually, though, I think you ask a good question. Why do so many of us (or really all of us, at least on occasion) really feel the drive to really lay into you guys about how much we hate (sometimes) customers. Why tell you this? Like, do we really imagine that you care, want to hear it, or... you know, care? I'm reasonably sure that you are no more interested in our feeling about customers than you are in the dancers that you patronize. I mean, sometimes it is probably as simple as a bad night. But I see something sort of analogous happening with you guys. Like, trip reports: why? I'm not criticizing, just wondering. Like do you guys really jerk off to this? Do you like reading it is a sexual way? That would make a certain amount of sense - I suspect, though, that most of you are sharing the stories the same way frat boys would share stories of conquests. You are doing it to show each other, and maybe yourselves, your dominance over these women, these clubs. Like how in charge you are, how in control, how much you get for how little money when other guys have to pay so much more for so much less. How at your mercy these girls are - witness our new, beloved Derek: "If you want money, I want pussy." But in pig latin. Girls are doing the same thing. We are trying to assert that WE are in control, that we pick and choose you, not the other way around and that for all you guys can pay us (or some of us) to DO certain things, you can't buy our respect, and that we take your money and give you our contempt - we go home and shower and sneer (in memory) at the unpleasant men who can't get pussy for free (because as someone else pointed out, dancers aren't that selective when it comes to sexual partners. Guys mock the unfortunates - the unemployed musicians, drug dealers that dancers sleep with for free, but to her, they are still better than you). Anyway. I've spent rather too much time summarizing the various ways customers and dancers like to dehumanize each other on this site. Point is, that I'm pretty sure that dancers are just slapping hands on top of the pile to declare that WE are in charge, and you are not.

Mastridonicus
07-10-2005, 08:20 PM
I agree with xdamage's point of view, but understand Jenny's answer.

I speak for myself only, but SW, as I thought, was a place where the veil of fantasy can come off and the thought process behind the fantasy can come out.

If a dancer hates their customers, this should be the place to share it. And I'm sure they are out there.

On that note the vice versa should be fair here.

Now I know that I only speak for myself, but I buy into the lie. I may not be able to get similar activities for free OTC but I enjoy myself ITC. And honestly, I've never objectified a dancer :/. I don't care if she respects me or not, I really don't, but I will respect her and the rules of the club.

A Doctor that I am a patient of doesn't need to respect me, but if he's my Doctor, I respect him.

Sounds silly, but it just doesn't bother me. I like to get to know the person before I get the dance, Like FBR or Yoda. If she wont allow me to get to know her, fake or honestly, then I move to one who will.

Good old Hurricane Jenny. She's honest. I respect that. :D

*Next time I'm Clubbing in tampa and I run into her*
<Jenny> Who are you?
<Mast> Just a washed out hobo who's hit rock bottom. And his Commanding officer.

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 09:15 PM
Okay. First - disliking your customers (even all your customers, even irrationally) doesn't mean you dislike men. I go off and on with this, honestly. Sometimes customer antics make me laugh and seem entirely natural - others, you seem like a pretty despicable lot. And really, although it is unlikely that you have NEVER met a handsome customer, you can go a while without seeing one, or without dancing for one (which is what makes him your customer, really).

Actually, though, I think you ask a good question. Why do so many of us (or really all of us, at least on occasion) really feel the drive to really lay into you guys about how much we hate (sometimes) customers. Why tell you this? Like, do we really imagine that you care, want to hear it, or... you know, care? I'm reasonably sure that you are no more interested in our feeling about customers than you are in the dancers that you patronize. I mean, sometimes it is probably as simple as a bad night. But I see something sort of analogous happening with you guys. Like, trip reports: why? I'm not criticizing, just wondering. Like do you guys really jerk off to this? Do you like reading it is a sexual way? That would make a certain amount of sense - I suspect, though, that most of you are sharing the stories the same way frat boys would share stories of conquests. You are doing it to show each other, and maybe yourselves, your dominance over these women, these clubs. Like how in charge you are, how in control, how much you get for how little money when other guys have to pay so much more for so much less. How at your mercy these girls are - witness our new, beloved Derek: "If you want money, I want pussy." But in pig latin. Girls are doing the same thing. We are trying to assert that WE are in control, that we pick and choose you, not the other way around and that for all you guys can pay us (or some of us) to DO certain things, you can't buy our respect, and that we take your money and give you our contempt - we go home and shower and sneer (in memory) at the unpleasant men who can't get pussy for free (because as someone else pointed out, dancers aren't that selective when it comes to sexual partners. Guys mock the unfortunates - the unemployed musicians, drug dealers that dancers sleep with for free, but to her, they are still better than you). Anyway. I've spent rather too much time summarizing the various ways customers and dancers like to dehumanize each other on this site. Point is, that I'm pretty sure that dancers are just slapping hands on top of the pile to declare that WE are in charge, and you are not.

Very insightful, and I would say true. This is about it. We have little respect for men who have to pay to see us dance naked (or fuck us, or talk to us, or whatever you pay for).

Mastridonicus
07-10-2005, 09:21 PM
Well I guess, simply, you shouldn't have respect for them simply because of that. I can't change the way you think.

But to me its no different than a paramedic saying he has no respect for your life since you have to pay to have him save it.

Simply paying for anything is the cheesiest reason to classify a lack of respect. IMHO. No offense.

However it does counter-value some of your quotes.

"The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self. --Albert Einstein"

Liberation from myself was shitting on the prude rules of my life style and stepping into a club for the first time. I never felt so relieved.

:/

Curiously, if I could ask. If you hung out with some dude for a couple of days. Got to know him, Really liked him <not sexually, just 'hey this guy is cool'> and he came into your club and asked you to dance for him, Would you lose all respect for him? Or would that be a crack in the rules?

"A good friend of mine dances, and I got dances from her to help her start. It would shatter me to think a friend of over 8 years would lose respect for me simply because I am her customer." - A friend of whom I relayed this post to. :/

xdamage
07-10-2005, 09:50 PM
Okay. First - disliking your customers (even all your customers, even irrationally) doesn't mean you dislike men.

Well let me try to explain my thoughts like this (and this not an attack on you so if you feel it is, grab a drink and say, okay, this is just X spewing his mind at no one in particular)...

So, here is the deal.

I separate how women behave from how strippers behave (which is pretty atrocious behavior from a certain point of view), but can still see the woman behind the stripper. This is the way people are, mixes of good traits and bad traits. Around strippers I put up a big set of protective measures, which isn't to say that I totally devalue them as women, but in the SC itself it's necessary to put up the protective measures in order not to get taken advantage of (and yes as you elude at it below, to take advantage of in some cases - thats the game we play).

It's the dancers who only see the customer (and can't see the man too), or the customers who only see the stripper (and can't see the woman too) that are the simpletons, got to have everything and people too into nice neat all or nothing (well lets call it retarded) categories.



I go off and on with this, honestly. Sometimes customer antics make me laugh and seem entirely natural - others, you seem like a pretty despicable lot. And really, although it is unlikely that you have NEVER met a handsome customer, you can go a while without seeing one, or without dancing for one (which is what makes him your customer, really).


The irony (i see you love it) is that stripper behavior is also pretty despicable. Greedy, lying, self absorbed, playing on others weaknesses, etc., to make money (vs so many other jobs they could do). While the guys act like sex starved pigs to get some touch (vs so many other ways they might get it).

Where we really separate the adults from the kiddies in this is in who can see their not-so-attractive side and accept it as it is, and even laugh about it vs those who can't get their heads around the fact that it takes two to make the customer/stripper relationship, and a great deal of blindness to believe that they are pure snowy white angels in this relationship.

But then even bad behavior isn't the big scary monster we were told it was when we were kids. Bad behavior is part of who we are. I embrace my sex starved pig side - its part of who I am, and as strange as it may seem, the sex starved pig side of men can also be a good thing at times. Likewise I look at strippers and for all of the greed, lying, bs, those can be good traits too under the right circumstances.




Actually, though, I think you ask a good question. Why do so many of us (or really all of us, at least on occasion) really feel the drive to really lay into you guys about how much we hate (sometimes) customers. Why tell you this? Like, do we really imagine that you care, want to hear it, or... you know, care? I'm reasonably sure that you are no more interested in our feeling about customers than you are in the dancers that you patronize. I mean, sometimes it is probably as simple as a bad night. But I see something sort of analogous happening with you guys.


You came close to the mark or on it below. It's a power play, and we both do it (strippers and customers). But to me that player power (properly channeled) isn't all bad. You just have to find the point where it's constructive without taking yourself too seriously. It's the simpletons, the retarded child like minds that actually seriously believe they are pure, blaimless, flawless while the other is a really fatally flawed. This is the mind of a child, everything has to be simple all or nothing or they are just can't get it. And they can't accept the world or their place in it for what it is because to really understand themselves and the other sex, that both sexes have some not-so-great traits. Yes, customer behavior sucks. The irony is so does stripper behavior. But we are mutually taking advantage of the same situation.



Like, trip reports: why? I'm not criticizing, just wondering. Like do you guys really jerk off to this? Do you like reading it is a sexual way? That would make a certain amount of sense - I suspect, though, that most of you are sharing the stories the same way frat boys would share stories of conquests. You are doing it to show each other, and maybe yourselves, your dominance over these women, these clubs. Like how in charge you are, how in control, how much you get for how little money when other guys have to pay so much more for so much less. How at your mercy these girls are - witness our new, beloved Derek: "If you want money, I want pussy."


It's the guys version of talking on the phone with your friends and filling them on the stories of the day, trying to understand the opposite sex better. Thats a simple way to put it but it would take more than a few lines to explain what goes on in a guys head.



But in pig latin. Girls are doing the same thing. We are trying to assert that WE are in control, that we pick and choose you, not the other way around and that for all you guys can pay us (or some of us) to DO certain things, you can't buy our respect...


Thank you! You got it. And it's not such a bad thing. Hell it's a good thing. It's a power play. It goes both ways. Children and people with child like minds just don't get it, but this is the way the world is. Men and women both cooperate and compete. Its why were here today having this convo, it's why our genes have survived through the eons. Men and woman don't need to be in complete agreement with each other all the time. It's bad for them. We need the struggle, the power play between us. The power play is just amplified in the stripper/customer relationship, but its true in all (not dead) male/female relationships.

It's the people that can't laugh at themselves, and themselves too seriously in the stripper/customer relationship that should get out of it. It's not for them. They should go back to more normal social regulated male/female relationships and work out their male/female adjustment issues there. Find a nice guy/girl to figure out who they are with. The whole strip club thing is just too much for some dancers, some customers.

xdamage
07-10-2005, 09:57 PM
Very insightful, and I would say true. This is about it. We have little respect for men who have to pay to see us dance naked (or fuck us, or talk to us, or whatever you pay for).

I know this guy who has little respect for women that dance naked for men to make money, yet he goes to the clubs. How strange is that? Not very strange at all. A lot men think strippers are loser. And how ironic that he still goes to the clubs even though he doesn't have to go to the clubs (you see where I am heading with this? Look one move ahead). But anyway, whats going through my head is that he is your typical simpleton, unable to separate the woman from what the woman does for a job. But I told him what I would tell you.

I told him, cool, you have the right to your opinion, even though I don't agree with it So here's what you do. Don't go the fucking clubs. Problem solved!

Same advice I'd give you. There million other jobs out there. Sounds like you can't separate the customer from the man. So choose another job. Problem solved.

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 10:33 PM
Well let me try to explain my thoughts like this (and this not an attack on you so if you feel it is, grab a drink and say, okay, this is just X spewing his mind at no one in particular)...

So, here is the deal.

I separate how women behave from how strippers behave (which is pretty atrocious behavior from a certain point of view), but can still see the woman behind the stripper. This is the way people are, mixes of good traits and bad traits. Around strippers I put up a big set of protective measures, which isn't to say that I totally devalue them as women, but in the SC itself it's necessary to put up the protective measures in order not to get taken advantage of (and yes as you elude at it below, to take advantage of in some cases - thats the game we play).

It's the dancers who only see the customer (and can't see the man too), or the customers who only see the stripper (and can't see the woman too) that are the simpletons, got to have everything and people too into nice neat all or nothing (well lets call it retarded) categories.



The irony (i see you love it) is that stripper behavior is also pretty despicable. Greedy, lying, self absorbed, playing on others weaknesses, etc., to make money (vs so many other jobs they could do). While the guys act like sex starved pigs to get some touch (vs so many other ways they might get it).

Where we really separate the adults from the kiddies in this is in who can see their not-so-attractive side and accept it as it is, and even laugh about it vs those who can't get their heads around the fact that it takes two to make the customer/stripper relationship, and a great deal of blindness to believe that they are pure snowy white angels in this relationship.

But then even bad behavior isn't the big scary monster we were told it was when we were kids. Bad behavior is part of who we are. I embrace my sex starved pig side - its part of who I am, and as strange as it may seem, the sex starved pig side of men can also be a good thing at times. Likewise I look at strippers and for all of the greed, lying, bs, those can be good traits too under the right circumstances.




You came close to the mark or on it below. It's a power play, and we both do it (strippers and customers). But to me that player power (properly channeled) isn't all bad. You just have to find the point where it's constructive without taking yourself too seriously. It's the simpletons, the retarded child like minds that actually seriously believe they are pure, blaimless, flawless while the other is a really fatally flawed. This is the mind of a child, everything has to be simple all or nothing or they are just can't get it. And they can't accept the world or their place in it for what it is because to really understand themselves and the other sex, that both sexes have some not-so-great traits. Yes, customer behavior sucks. The irony is so does stripper behavior. But we are mutually taking advantage of the same situation.



It's the guys version of talking on the phone with your friends and filling them on the stories of the day, trying to understand the opposite sex better. Thats a simple way to put it but it would take more than a few lines to explain what goes on in a guys head.



Thank you! You got it. And it's not such a bad thing. Hell it's a good thing. It's a power play. It goes both ways. Children and people with child like minds just don't get it, but this is the way the world is. Men and women both cooperate and compete. Its why were here today having this convo, it's why our genes have survived through the eons. Men and woman don't need to be in complete agreement with each other all the time. It's bad for them. We need the struggle, the power play between us. The power play is just amplified in the stripper/customer relationship, but its true in all (not dead) male/female relationships.

It's the people that can't laugh at themselves, and themselves too seriously in the stripper/customer relationship that should get out of it. It's not for them. They should go back to more normal social regulated male/female relationships and work out their male/female adjustment issues there. Find a nice guy/girl to figure out who they are with. The whole strip club thing is just too much for some dancers, some customers.

Yea, yea, yea. The truth is: we don't have respect for people who have to pay for sex or female companionship. Yes, I have made friends with some customers, the ones who still happen to have people inside, and they are pretty nice guys in every other respect. But I still wouldn't date anyone who has to pay for female companionship. It means they have issues of some sort, and I don't want to deal with it. Now am I perfect? Shit no, I've got issues too. But that still doesn't make customers attractive to me.

erotictonic
07-10-2005, 10:35 PM
I know this guy who has little respect for women that dance naked for men to make money, yet he goes to the clubs. How strange is that? Not very strange at all. A lot men think strippers are loser. And how ironic that he still goes to the clubs even though he doesn't have to go to the clubs (you see where I am heading with this? Look one move ahead). But anyway, whats going through my head is that he is your typical simpleton, unable to separate the woman from what the woman does for a job. But I told him what I would tell you.

I told him, cool, you have the right to your opinion, even though I don't agree with it So here's what you do. Don't go the fucking clubs. Problem solved!

Same advice I'd give you. There million other jobs out there. Sounds like you can't separate the customer from the man. So choose another job. Problem solved.

I don't strip anymore. But you need to tell 90% of strippers that, because from my experiences most of them feel the same way. Just like a rock star wouldn't want to date a fan....

Mastridonicus
07-10-2005, 10:41 PM
EroticTonic: You say you wouldn't date anyone who HAS to pay for female companionship. What about those who CHOOSE to pay? Just curious, cause it may change the entire image of your post.

::Mast::

All Good Things
07-10-2005, 10:47 PM
Girls are doing the same thing. We are trying to assert that WE are in control, that we pick and choose you, not the other way around.....Point is, that I'm pretty sure that dancers are just slapping hands on top of the pile to declare that WE are in charge, and you are not.

Of course you pick and choose us. It's true in the club, doubly true for OTC and a bazillion times true for any real relationships that may come out of a club.

I've long chanted this mantra, but I seem to be in the distinct minority. In fact, CO and I are the only ones who regularly beat this drum, largely because it's a result of our direct experience. I do think many blueballers may share the view, though.

There is a common thread to what Nic, you and ET are saying about how money tends to pre-contaminate. God knows, money is always a good inverse barometer of what is "real." My guess, though, is that the pre-contamination is not universal, or perhaps loses its force over time with strong familiarity in certain rare cases. All those qualities and shared interests that ET said make a guy fuckable are not entirely stripped from his person. Even those repulsive force fields you put out can't kill it all. ;)

Nicolina
07-10-2005, 11:16 PM
xdamage: I never said I didn't like customers; I only said that after the first year or so in the biz I decided not to "date" (i.e. recreationally fuck) my customers.

I completely disagree with ET that stripclub patronage is necessarily an indication of a damaged psyche in a guy (though I have certainly known individual customers who seemed damaged in some way). I think JZ made some good points here.

I really didn't judge my customers for being customers, just as I hoped they didn't judge me solely on the fact that I was a dancer. I dealt with them on an individual basis. I liked some and I disliked others, but I really didn't spend a great deal of time worrying about why they frequented clubs or whether there was something wrong in their lives or anything....I mean, I really just didn't care all that much.

In fact, one thing I will say about this forum is that it has actually made me see customers more as individual thinking/feeling human beings. That sounds dorky, but it's true. I just didn't think about customer motivation very much when I was dancing. I didn't realize how vulnerable and genuine and honest the men often were in the dancer-customer interaction. I probably have a greater fondness for customers now than I did when I was dancing--partly because I don't engage in that adversarial relationship on a daily basis, but also as a direct result of what I have read on both sides of the site.

Also, x: I don't understand why you say that dancers are greedy and dishonest. We charge the going market rate for a particular service, and there's plenty of competition. I don't think we're any greedier or more manipulative than the average salesperson who works on commission.

And where does the lying come in? Is flirting with someone you don't intend to sleep with a form of lying?

Dancers say, "If you give me twenty bucks, I'll get nekkid and grind on you for three minutes." (Hopefully we finesse it a little better than that, but still....) Where is the lie in that statement?

xdamage
07-11-2005, 06:10 AM
xdamage: I never said I didn't like customers; I only said that after the first year or so in the biz I decided not to "date" (i.e. recreationally fuck) my customers.

Nicolina, don't personalize any of that. Nothing I wrote was negatively directed at you. Quite the opposite, you're an example of the fair minded pinkie this sight needs.



I completely disagree with ET that stripclub patronage is necessarily an indication of a damaged psyche in a guy (though I have certainly known individual customers who seemed damaged in some way). I think JZ made some good points here.


Yes, and that train of thought is silly since if you follow it through then the conclusion must be that dancers are woman that feed off those with damaged psyches. Not exactly Mother Teresa stuff.



I really didn't judge my customers for being customers, just as I hoped they didn't judge me solely on the fact that I was a dancer.


You're exceptionally clear minded, we need more pinkies like you around here.



In fact, one thing I will say about this forum is that it has actually made me see customers more as individual thinking/feeling human beings. That sounds dorky, but it's true. I just didn't think about customer motivation very much when I was dancing. I didn't realize how vulnerable and genuine and honest the men often were in the dancer-customer interaction.


Not dorky at all.



Also, x: I don't understand why you say that dancers are greedy and dishonest.

I don't think we're any greedier or more manipulative than the average salesperson who works on commission.

And where does the lying come in? Is flirting with someone you don't intend to sleep with a form of lying?


This is a tough one. Lets see if I can paint a picture that explains it.

It's like saying customers are losers because they go to the clubs. The customers counter is that no, it's a choice we make. We choose to go, and we choose how our money is spent. We are in control of the situation and without us the dancer wouldn't exist. It's all clear what our intent is up front and it's to use the business service you offer. That's one side of the scale. And on the opposing but similar side is the fair honest dancer who perceives it as a straight forward, choice made business transaction.

On other side of things, we say the customer is a loser, he spends his money to fill a void in his life that he should fill in real life. He has psyche problems. He has issues with woman. How sad. And on that side of the painting we have the strippers that feed off such sad loser men, who are in control, who take advantage of these poor losers with damaged psyches and play on these poor loser's delusions.

You have to let that sort of sink in because there is no absolue truth in any of this. As with all things different people chose to see the same situation different ways.

My personal feeling is that what matters is intent. A stripper that intends to treat her customer fairly, a customer that intends to go have a good time, a stripper that intends to deceive her customer, a customer that intends to find a girlfriend in a club, and so on. We can't easily tell just by looking an in individual what their intent is but in fact there are some of both to be found in the stripclub/customer relationships.

In context, the response to Jennys post, in the big picture neither strippers nor customers have the "upper hand". Putting aside individuals and extreme individual cases, strippers and customers both mutually take advantage of the same situation. And outside of the stripper/customer relationship, there are plenty of people that think both strippers and customers are fucked up loser with psyche problems.


p.s. some sales people are lying bastards and it's why I try to avoid dealing sales people. ;)

p.s.s. maybe I'm in the minority, but I see the stripper/customer infighting as an ironic one. Here is the irony in a nutshell -

To the guy who thinks all strippers are loser - as someone who chooses to be a patron of losers, what kind of person does that make you?

To the girl who thinks all customers are loser - as someone who chooses to make your money by feeding off losers, what kind of person does that make you?

See there is no way to throw stones at the other side and come out looking good ourselves. Strippers and customers exist because they both benefit from (and take advantage of) a common situation.

xdamage
07-11-2005, 06:26 AM
Yea, yea, yea. The truth is: we don't have respect for people who have to pay for sex or female companionship. Yes, I have made friends with some customers, the ones who still happen to have people inside, and they are pretty nice guys in every other respect. But I still wouldn't date anyone who has to pay for female companionship. It means they have issues of some sort, and I don't want to deal with it. Now am I perfect? Shit no, I've got issues too. But that still doesn't make customers attractive to me.

This is like a customer who thinks strippers are losers or dirty, and would never date or marry a girl who strips (though he might bang one), but he goes to the clubs and take of the situation anyway. Guys like that I just want to... well slap some sense in to them.

But it's good to read that at least some of the dancers here don't have such negative, and simple on/off mindset towards customers.

To be fair to you though. You are:

1.) You are being honest about how you feel about customers, which I can't fault you for.

2.) The situation between dancers and customers isn't equal because we (customers) come and go as we please (this is why we think we are in control btw). While you (dancers) are stuck there 8 hours day. Well, stuck by choice. You could always choose another line of work, and you have.

SportsWriter2
07-11-2005, 07:00 AM
...after the first year or so in the biz I decided not to "date" (i.e. recreationally fuck) my customers.
So true. After the first year you understand that the real money is in fucking other dancers' customers. ;)

Sorry Nic, but I couldn't resist. Whenever I had an ATF at your old club, other dancers would offer more action for less money. Totally ruthless. :O

Katrine
07-11-2005, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by erotictonic
Yea, yea, yea. The truth is: we don't have respect for people who have to pay for sex or female companionship. Yes, I have made friends with some customers, the ones who still happen to have people inside, and they are pretty nice guys in every other respect. But I still wouldn't date anyone who has to pay for female companionship. It means they have issues of some sort, and I don't want to deal with it. Now am I perfect? Shit no, I've got issues too. But that still doesn't make customers attractive to me.


I also respectfully disagree. Sometimes the best way to live out a fantasy is to pay for it. Or get paid for it. Know what I mean?

Ok, I know this musician. He is very handsome, charismatic, and known to be one of the biggest manwhores in town. During a particularly honest moment, he told me that he once paid two black prostitutes to have sex with him. He could have found two girls that matched that description to do him for free, but he chose to pay.

mr_punk
07-11-2005, 10:01 AM
Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...
well, that's not suprising. if someone had a certain image that she wanted to project or protect. i'm sure they would be quite upset at your candidness.

I separate how women behave from how strippers behave (which is pretty atrocious behavior from a certain point of view), but can still see the woman behind the stripper.as i've said many times in the past. a sc is nothing more than an artificial social environment. it's surprising how many strippers or customers either seem to forget that fact or ignore it at their own peril.

Around strippers I put up a big set of protective measures, which isn't to say that I totally devalue them as women, but in the SC itself it's necessary to put up the protective measures in order not to get taken advantage of (and yes as you elude at it below, to take advantage of in some cases - thats the game we play).exactly...there is no upside to being a "nice guy" in a sc. the "nice guy" usually has no clue about what he wants out of his sc experience. the "nice guy" in a sc gets his wallet picked clean for very little in return and then he comes to SCJ to whine about how he's such a "nice guy" and how could a stripper take advantage of him since he's such a "nice guy".

I embrace my sex starved pig side - its part of who I am, and as strange as it may seem, the sex starved pig side of men can also be a good thing at times. Likewise I look at strippers and for all of the greed, lying, bs, those can be good traits too under the right circumstances.arrggghhh! matey...i'm really in touch with my dark side. before i set sail into a sc, i strip myself down to the bare essentials. i make my inner white knite, gentleman and nice guy walk the plank and feed them to the sharks. so, when i meet a stripper. the thought of whether or not a stripper is pretending to "like me", thinks i'm "special" wants to "date me", or even wants to have a "relationship" never crosses my mind. it's irrelevant. i'm not looking to get that serious in the first place. i'm looking for something more a bit more casual. so, the fact that some lying, greedy stripper is simply interested in my money is no problem for me at all. "arrgghh...you can have it, lass but let spread those cheeks first". ultimately, i treat strippers as sex workers. there's no need for me to make something more of it.

It's a power play, and we both do it (strippers and customers). But to me that player power (properly channeled) isn't all bad. You just have to find the point where it's constructive without taking yourself too seriously.the problem is that instead of taking things like a good sport. there are a lot of sore losers around here on both sides.

Like, trip reports: why? I'm not criticizing, just wondering. Like do you guys really jerk off to this? Do you like reading it is a sexual way?i don't think i've ever sported lumber after reading a TR. i mean, they're not exactly a harold robbins novel. men like details and they want to know the answer to questions like, what kind of club is it? how much are laps? how big are her tits? how nasty does she get during laps? etc, because he might want to try that club or dancer one day.

I suspect, though, that most of you are sharing the stories the same way frat boys would share stories of conquests.well, don't ignore the fact that we are talking about sc and strippers are sex workers. i suppose, we could start sharing our feelings and taking each other's emotional temperature every five minutes and talk about mundane topics like the wife and kids, etc. however, if we did such a thing. i think we should change the name of the website to Strip Club Depression.

You are doing it to show each other, and maybe yourselves, your dominance over these women, these clubs."dominance"? well, i wouldn't go that far, but i see your point. however, the behavior is no different than say 'stripping general'. speaking for myself, to dominate someone you still need their comsent. like my daddy}:D always told me,"free will..it's a bitch, son". futhermore, it's like i've said on more than one occasion. despite what the industry promotes, there are no guarantees in a sc for a customer. it's never been that kind of business. it's up to the customer to be very discerning about whom he spends his money. it's up to the stripper to justify whether or not the money is worth her efforts.

Like how in charge you are, how in control, how much you get for how little money when other guys have to pay so much more for so much less.sure..which is pretty much like 'hustle hut' except that it's more about how little service the customer receives in return for his money. to a certain degree, each party does have a certain amount of control, but it's mostly over one's self. sure, there are plenty of suckers in a sc that a stripper can find and clean out his wallet and there are plenty of strippers who don't mind getting really nasty for the money. however, the trick is finding the right customer or dancer and there's no guarantee that it will happen every time.

I also respectfully disagree. Sometimes the best way to live out a fantasy is to pay for it. Or get paid for it. Know what I mean?exactly. futhermore, it's one common reason that strippers (actually most women) most often overlook. they think every customer wants to "date" them or enter some kind of "relationship" or be their "friend" when nothing could be further from the truth. sometimes, all he wants to do is tap that ass and for her to leave and keep her mouth shut. IOW, he just wants a sex worker not a girlfriend.

During a particularly honest moment, he told me that he once paid two black prostitutes to have sex with him. He could have found two girls that matched that description to do him for free, but he chose to pay.it's perfectly understandable. after a ball collapsing double BJ. i'm not in the mood for pillow talk. i need to rehydrate my bodily fluids and take a nap.

Jenny
07-11-2005, 10:06 AM
You came close to the mark or on it below. It's a power play, and we both do it (strippers and customers). But to me that player power (properly channeled) isn't all bad. You just have to find the point where it's constructive without taking yourself too seriously. It's the simpletons, the retarded child like minds that actually seriously believe they are pure, blaimless, flawless while the other is a really fatally flawed. And they can't accept the world or their place in it for what it is because to really understand themselves and the other sex, that both sexes have some not-so-great traits. Yes, customer behavior sucks. The irony is so does stripper behavior. But we are mutually taking advantage of the same situation.
See, again, I don't think this is what I meant. I was really more talking about what goes on HERE on this message board, than in the club, and I was certainly not saying that the customers here all suck, or that the dancers are all perfect. I was saying that this is part of the reason we respond to each other the way we do (HERE, not in the club) and that we are both trying to assert dominance in a hypothetical relationship (like you and I might have a hypothetical dancer customer relationship, because you are a customer, I am a dancer and we respond to each other within that framework even though we don't actually interact within that framework - if that made any sense. Sometimes I feel completely unable to communicate, like I'm just throwing out synonyms, hoping that one of them will work). And incidentally, I don't think that customer behaviour sucks (always) and I certainly don't think my behaviour sucks (usually). Incidentally, my understanding of guys comes from having no understanding of "guys" (with a few exceptions that would have nothing to do with what you would imagine). I understand every guy as an individual - customers, I can tend to lump together.



It's the guys version of talking on the phone with your friends and filling them on the stories of the day, trying to understand the opposite sex better. Thats a simple way to put it but it would take more than a few lines to explain what goes on in a guys head.
Maybe, but it seems to me to be fairly analagous to the girls talking about their contempt of customers.



It's the people that can't laugh at themselves, and themselves too seriously in the stripper/customer relationship that should get out of it. It's not for them. They should go back to more normal social regulated male/female relationships and work out their male/female adjustment issues there. Find a nice guy/girl to figure out who they are with. The whole strip club thing is just too much for some dancers, some customers.
See, I don't know about this either. I think that it is "too much" for everyone. I have NEVER met a dancer who has never, ever cried over her job.

Jenny
07-11-2005, 10:28 AM
well, that's not suprising. if someone had a certain image that she wanted to project or protect. i'm sure they would be quite upset at your candidness.
Okay - little point here. Katrine, you know that given the opportunity I would completely be your bitch, and I absolutely agreed (yea, even publically) with what you said, the comment you referred to came about, not because of your candidness, but because you called the entire pink site a "bunch of hypocritical bitches." Or was it "biatches"? Something like that, in any case. It was really the style, not the content of the post that was objected to.



exactly...there is no upside to being a "nice guy" in a sc. the "nice guy" usually has no clue about what he wants out of his sc experience. the "nice guy" in a sc gets his wallet picked clean for very little in return and then he comes to SCJ to whine about how he's such a "nice guy" and how could a stripper take advantage of him since he's such a "nice guy".
Why must we polarize into "nice guy" (meaning schmuk) or dickhead (meaning dickhead). Surely there are other options.



so, when i meet a stripper. the thought of whether or not a stripper is pretending to "like me", thinks i'm "special" wants to "date me", or even wants to have a "relationship" never crosses my mind. it's irrelevant.
Well, good. But again, you act like the only alternative to being a sucker bled dry is being a dick.



the problem is that instead of taking things like a good sport. there are a lot of sore losers around here on both sides.
Well, note. To some of us here, this isn't a game.


i don't think i've ever sported lumber after reading a TR. i mean, they're not exactly a harold robbins novel. men like details and they want to know the answer to questions like, what kind of club is it? how much are laps? how big are her tits? how nasty does she get during laps? etc, because he might want to try that club or dancer one day. But they use pseudynyms. And what about the YMMV thread? And the thread in which guys said that it was okay to spill the details because they weren't spilling the identifying details? That just doesn't sound right to me.



well, don't ignore the fact that we are talking about sc and strippers are sex workers. i suppose, we could start sharing our feelings and taking each other's emotional temperature every five minutes and talk about mundane topics like the wife and kids, etc. however, if we did such a thing. i think we should change the name of the website to Strip Club Depression.
Okay. Where to start? A) I know. B) Not necessary. I thought I had made clear (but obviously didn't) that I wasn't really criticizing so much as deconstructing. I thought that the TR thread is pretty analogous to the way that dancers denigrate customers, in terms of motivation - unless some of you are reading it in a masturbatory way which is an alternative that would make sense.


"dominance"? well, i wouldn't go that far, but i see your point. however, the behavior is no different than say 'stripping general'.
I know. That was my point. Well, sort of. It differs a great deal (in my opinion) from "stripping general", but it certainly shares characteristics with ways that women behave on this site (most notably the ones that I was specifically making analogy to... I really need to work on my communication skills. I am just not being clear here).


speaking for myself, to dominate someone you still need their comsent. like my daddy}:D always told me,"free will..it's a bitch, son". futhermore, it's like i've said on more than one occasion. despite what the industry promotes, there are no guarantees in a sc for a customer. it's never been that kind of business. it's up to the customer to be very discerning about whom he spends his money. it's up to the stripper to justify whether or not the money is worth her efforts. Yeah, sure, whatever, but that is not what I am talking about. What I was talking about is what goes on HERE, and conversationaly dominance HERE.


sure..which is pretty much like 'hustle hut' except that it's more about how little service the customer receives in return for his money.
No. See Hustle Hut is specifically about money, not dominance. What you guys do, isn't.



to a certain degree, each party does have a certain amount of control, but it's mostly over one's self. sure, there are plenty of suckers in a sc that a stripper can find and clean out his wallet and there are plenty of strippers who don't mind getting really nasty for the money. however, the trick is finding the right customer or dancer and there's no guarantee that it will happen every time.
Again, dude, you are obsessed. Either that or you are just trying to make this conversation into a model in which you feel particularly comfortable (i.e. why you are justified in objectifying dancers). Nothing to do with what I just said. At all.

xdamage
07-11-2005, 10:44 AM
I was saying that this is part of the reason we respond to each other the way we do (HERE, not in the club) and that we are both trying to assert dominance in a hypothetical relationship (like you and I might have a hypothetical dancer customer relationship, because you are a customer, I am a dancer and we respond to each other within that framework even though we don't actually interact within that framework - if that made any sense.


Self preservation instinct I guess. Like I said in some other thread, I'm not much of a junkie as don't go to the clubs often, but when I do go though I have this big truckload of defense mechanisms I erect before walking in the door. Unfortunately, even though you and I are talking from miles apart, through a big shield (a forum), it's just a kind of self preservation instinct.

In the clubs it's just reality and necessary as too many guys get eaten alive in the clubs. Maybe it's because we have this big soft side, our natural instinct is to respond to women in a certain way. A way that just doesn't and can't work for a guy in the clubs. It's an artificial environment and guys who go in as nice guys get screwed in the strip clubs. Oh maybe not by you personally, and maybe not on a single visit, but if they go regularly there are plenty of strippers out there who will play on a nice guys instincts like the way a musician plays an instrument, and these guys do suffer for it in the long run.

So my 1st reaction on a board like this is to put up my stripper defense system. Part of that defense system is reminding myself that it is I who chose who I will spend my money on, how much, and for what. I suppose if I'm coming across as a guy who is trying to assert my dominance, then I'm probably doing it for my own benefit. Instinct.



Maybe, but it seems to me to be fairly analagous to the girls talking about their contempt of customers.


Yea, agreed.



See, I don't know about this either. I think that it is "too much" for everyone. I have NEVER met a dancer who has never, ever cried over her job.

Well, now you've struck on a bit of painful truth. We have millions of years of evolution behind us that shapes who and what we are. The strip club environment, and modern society are relatively new things on the historical scale (just a blip in time). For the most part neither men or women are entirely comfortable or in control in the strip clubs. Just that some of us (both men and women) have a bigger set of defense mechanisms than others to help us cope. Laughing at ourselves is a defense mechanism. Feeling dominant, another. Projecting negative feelings on the other sex, as a way of maintainig our sense of control, another. Some of these work better than others. Some are healthier than others.

And yes, the dancers do it too. They protect themselves emotionally. Remind themselves and us they are in charge. They choose who gets a dance, for how much, how far it goes, etc. Even on a board like this, where it should be safe to talk without the defense mechanisms, it's instinct.

Dancers might be a little more refined at their defense mechanisms than the customers because the dancers have 8hrs a day to practice, and we customers have only a little time here and there to erect our defenses, but we do need them. So maybe the guys that are particularly pushing the "I'm domininate" line don't have as much finesse about as they could. But these poor guys that have no defense mechanisms, that walk into the clubs as nice guys and fall for a stripper, these guys are screwed and so mis-guided in their emotions. They need some defense mechanisms, they need to see the situation for what it is. Maybe that means they have to act like assholes for a bit until they get it under control. Whatever works. Or in some cases, some of the guys that go to clubs just can't self defend in which case they probably shouldn't go to the clubs. It's just too much for them.

mr_punk
07-11-2005, 12:23 PM
Okay - little point here. Katrine, you know that given the opportunity I would completely be your bitch, and I absolutely agreed (yea, even publically) with what you said, the comment you referred to came about, not because of your candidness, but because you called the entire pink site a "bunch of hypocritical bitches." Or was it "biatches"? Something like that, in any case. It was really the style, not the content of the post that was objected to.okay - little point here. if kat is referring to a specific post where she called the entire pink site,"bunch of hypocritical bitches.". it's not down here.

Why must we polarize into "nice guy" (meaning schmuk) or dickhead (meaning dickhead). Surely there are other options.well, i'd like to hear some of your suggestions.

Well, good. But again, you act like the only alternative to being a sucker bled dry is being a dick.did i give you that impression? i might be wrong, but why can't you accept the fact that if you can't do what a customer requires. he's not being a dick. it's just business. true, you might not like it, but i don't need you to like it. i don't get wrapped in personalities just performance. of course, you don't have to do anything you don't wish. however, if you expect me to pay you for service. i'm not going to pay for subpar work.

Well, note. To some of us here, this isn't a game.duly noted..however, it still doesn't change the fact that it's a business and not a very nice one for the uninformed.

But they use pseudynyms. And what about the YMMV thread? And the thread in which guys said that it was okay to spill the details because they weren't spilling the identifying details? That just doesn't sound right to me.i'm sure, it probably doesn't sound right to you. i'm sure the thought of someone writing (in a post or PM) something about the quality of your performance makes you uneasy.
No. See Hustle Hut is specifically about money, not dominance. What you guys do, isn't.i disagree. obviously, you've never had the pleasure of a stripper putting the hard hustle put on you.

Jenny
07-11-2005, 12:56 PM
okay - little point here. if kat is referring to a specific post where she called the entire pink site,"bunch of hypocritical bitches.". it's not down here.
Well, no. It's on the pink side. But it was in response to the post to which I referred that someone told her she could stay down here. I'm not arguing that if someone calls you names, it's okay to call them back. I'm just making the point that the comment that has so defamed our little Kitty's honour was not actually in response to her brutal, unflinching honesty, or because she is disturbing other's canonical habits. It was in response to her calling everyone a bunch of hypocritical bitches. And there were a fair number of responses giving her a LOL and various thumbs up, and various forms of agreement (like I said, including mine).



did i give you that impression? i might be wrong, Yes, you did. And yes, you are.



duly noted..however, it still doesn't change the fact that it's a business and not a very nice one for the uninformed.
Oh, well gosh thanks. Those of us who make our living here didn't know that already. We thought it was a nice happy place filled with teddy bear picnics and rainbows. The absence of bears and rainbows hasn't enlightened us in the least. Seriously dude - you can't possibly think you have a lot to tell me regarding the character of the industry? I'm simply pointing out that to the women that work here it isn't funny. This is how they pay for their rent or tuition or drug habit or what have you. You might equally be a sore loser if schmuks like you thought it was funny to muck about with your job.



i'm sure, it probably doesn't sound right to you. i'm sure the thought of someone writing (in a post or PM) something about the quality of your performance makes you uneasy.
Yes. And no - I mean it's the nature of it, right? Either it's "Oh, she talks so tough, but she's ugly and a prude" or "She talks so tough, but she's only okay and she's a total whore." There is really no place to be free from that kind of criticism except from retirement. I take small comfort in knowing that there is zero likelihood that I have a) met any of you and/or b) that any of you could identify me. There are about 10000 exotic dancers in Toronto, at least 10% of whom are named Jenn, Jenny, Jenna or some variation. What I really meant however, was that if it were for comparison shopping purposes, the lack of identifying details, both in club and dancer, as well as the whole concept of YMMV is kind of working against it. So it doesn't seem like that is its real purpose.


i disagree. obviously, you've never had the pleasure of a stripper putting the hard hustle put on you.
No. I haven't actually. When I was in San Francisco a friend and I went to a club, fully prepared to buy a dance from the first girls who asked us - nobody did. I was dismayed. I went to a male club once with my roommate (who thought it was terrible that I had been in the business so long and never seen a guy get naked for money - on a stage at any rate. No, just kidding. At all) again, fully prepared to buy a dance from the first person who asked. Nobody did. Very dismayifying. Besides the point though - say no. All you guys pride yourselves on your saying no ability. Trying to sell a dance in a club, is not the same as asserting dominance on a message board. I don't even know where you get the similarity from, actually.

xdamage
07-11-2005, 01:09 PM
Why must we polarize into "nice guy" (meaning schmuk) or dickhead (meaning dickhead). Surely there are other options.


Curious, what types of personalities do you see in the clubs (in general?) Do you tend to see the extremes or do you see a wide spread of personalities from schmuk through dickheads?

The unfortunate reality is that most of the guys here would, without defense mechanisms, develop emotional attachment to a stripper that turned on the sweet charm, and sexual steam. And they would be hurt and screwed for having developed emotional attachments. This is just deep seated biological reality. No matter how much another part of their brains know better, they would still become a victim of these feelings. It's nice to imagine guys are like James Bond and smooth and always in control, but it's just not the real world (though I suppose if you look long enough you'll find Mr. B somewhere). So guys in the clubs do need to put up some defense mechanisms, even yes, over compensate and embrace their dickhead side.

As I said though, the customers don't do this 8hrs a day. The stripclub is an artificial situation that plays on some deep seated emotions. The guys (the customers) that visit the clubs have a lot less time than the dancers to acclimate and prepare themselves for the emotional onslaught. Over compensating, sometimes necessary. Or I should say, it wouldn't surprise me that a lot of guys over compensate (either way, turning into shmucks on one end of the spectrum, assholes on the other). If a guy has to go to extremes to maintain his sense of perspective, I vote for being more careful than not careful enough for their own sake. But those types of guys probably don't make the best customers either. Major conflict of interest here between what the dancers want out of customers, and what customers want out of dancers and need to do to protect themselves from being taken for a bad ride.



Well, note. To some of us here, this isn't a game.


For the dancer it's a job, 8+ hours a day, serious stuff. For customers it's just entertainment, here and there, yes even a game sometimes as a way of seeing the situation and take it (and our emotions) less seriously. We're definitely not equals in this situation, and we don't need to be. But maybe in a situation like this forum we (customers and dancers) can cut back off on some of the chest beating (I AM THE MASTER!) attitude and be a bit more friendly.

Jenny
07-11-2005, 01:30 PM
Curious, what types of personalities do you see in the clubs (in general?) Do you tend to see the extremes or do you see a wide spread of personalities from schmuk through dickheads?
Actually, in some way I have the customers well divided up:
There is Group A) that comes in for the touch. These guys are fine by me so long as they a) pay (I hate the guys that as soon as you sit start stroking you like you are their fucking cat, and then won't buy a dance - like, Dude! Just get a fucking cat! This is why I decline to be stroked for free) and b) don't try to anally probe me (I'm sorry, am I being abducted? Get out of there!) There is Group B) the bachelor party or some such equivalent - a group of young or trying to be young guys prancing around like they've discovered women for the first time. Don't care for those, here. In other places they aren't so bad. There is Group C) and Group Ca) the guys that come in to be paid attention to, and the guys who come in feel like they belong - these ones are the ones who say "I don't buy dances, but any time you feel tired, come on over here and I'll buy you a drink" or "I know the whole game here". I suppose there could be Group Cai) which would be the same thing except they do buy dances. Group D) guys that come in because they really enjoy having the opportunity to turn girls down and Group E) the guys who come in to look at the stage. In this town, in the club I am in now, I see quite a lot of D. You can tell the Ds because of how happy they look when they get to say no - E's just want you to go away and Ca's tend to look a little embarrassed, because they know they are trying so hard to suck your time without paying. D's are really happy about it. The more time they've sucked, the happier they feel. They hate the "wanna dance" girls. They feel cheated of the whole experience of rejection.

My personal speciality in terms of customers is the one off, sort of dorky guy who is really shy in real life and is looking to spend somewhere in between $60 - $100 in about 45 minutes. I'm too shy for the fetish guys, and I look kind of... nice for the touchy ones, and I just can't be bothered remembering the Cai's. Schmuks I find kind of intimidating - they pay too much attention to you, and sort of implicitly demand it back and they always seem a breath away from shoving you in a freezer, to take you out once a year to say "You're still so perfect." It's too much work, I don't care for it.

Rath
07-11-2005, 02:18 PM
Here's the thing with the "no choice but 'nice guy' or dickhead" and "strippers selling dances are liars" stuff.

I was in my favorite club a few nights ago. I was having a nice chat with a dancer. (Don't worry: I don't mean I'm fooling myself that she really liked me. I just mean that it was a pleasant chat.) I bought a couple of dances from her. They were on the high side of expectable public-floor-dance contact level at that club: not out of the ordinary, but good. It involved stuff like her stroking me through my pants, miming oral sex through my pants, all that usual kind of stuff.

We continued to chat pleasantly for a while, and then one or the other of us mentioned the possibility of going up to a VIP room. At that club, VIPs cost $900, $500 of which goes to the dancer. I hope it will not make me seem to be a low-end cheapskate when I say that, although it's an amount I'm willing to pay, $900 is not an amount I toss around lightly. I asked the dancer what a VIP would be like with her. She licked her lips and said I'd have good time. Not knowing her well enough to trust her with that lip-licking shit, I asked her if she could tell me what the rules would be. She said, "None. No, two. No, three. No, two." I asked her if she could tell me what the two no three no two rules would be, and she said, "No blow jobs and no sex." I told her that, considering the club's VIP rate, she didn't have a sale.

We chatted some more. She krept into my lap, started stroking away madly, and making a lot of I guess you'd call them fuck faces. Finally, she asked if I really wouldn't do a VIP according to her rules. I told her I wouldn't. She said, "I can't believe that all you're interested in is blow jobs," stomped away, and proceeded to bad-mouth me to most of the rest of the girls there (most of whom had done VIPs without her two rules).

I understand this girl was upset at losing a sale. I understand she's frustrated at being outcompeted by women she perceives as playing dirty. And I understand it hurts her self-image to think of herself as someone men think they can pay for sexual services.

But wait a minute -- men CAN pay her for sexual services. It 's just that there are some she's decided are OK with her, and some she takes umbrage at. She, meanwhile, seems to have no idea of the meaning of $900 for at least some of us (particularly some of us who aren't on expense accounts).

And wasn't she lying when she licked her lips before she told me I'd have a good time? I don't mean the kind of lying that damns you to eternal perdition. Just the kind that makes it hard for you to take the moral high road. And, of course, at the rates this club charges, isn't that kind of lying pretty much necessary to sell a VIP if you don't actually provide the kind of services I wanted (which a lot of women there do provide)?

So am I a dickhead because I was on guard against that kind of lie? Because I chose not to spend what is at least to me a significant amount of money if I didn't get the service for it I wanted? (Note that I wasn't impolite. Note that I didn't demand any kind of service. I just asked her what her rules were, and then demurred when they didn't match what I wanted for $900.)

This is sounding defensive. I don't mean to be. I just mean to try to show Jenny what the customer is up against. Now I'm not saying poor, poor me or anything. I just wonder what Jenny would have had a customer do in my position. Not go to the club (at least unless $900 is an inconsequential amount of money)? Never do VIPs (even though lots of the women there do extras)? Do them indiscrimately, even though they cost a significant amount of money?

And please: I understand what the girls are up against. It's not pleasant to have strange guys groping you (although, mommy, mommy, she groped me first!), and it's not pleasant to be propositioned either. But there's a lot of stuff I don't like about being a lawyer. Really, it's their choice to work in strip clubs, and it's their choice to work in a club where VIP charges are very high (and extras are common) as well.

mr_punk
07-11-2005, 02:27 PM
Well, no. It's on the pink side. But it was in response to the post to which I referred that someone told her she could stay down here.i have no have idea what post you're referring.

I'm just making the point that the comment that has so defamed our little Kitty's honour was not actually in response to her brutal, unflinching honesty, or because she is disturbing other's canonical habits. It was in response to her calling everyone a bunch of hypocritical bitches. And there were a fair number of responses giving her a LOL and various thumbs up, and various forms of agreement (like I said, including mine).
okay...point taken..i think...i still have no idea what post you're referring. so, i'll take your word for it.

Yes, you did.like i said, it's never personal with strippers. it's just business.

And yes, you are.about what? you'll have to expound on that response.

Oh, well gosh thanks. Those of us who make our living here didn't know that already.well, if you stop acting like a PL who doesn't know any better. i wouldn't have to reiterate the point.

I'm simply pointing out that to the women that work here it isn't funny. This is how they pay for their rent or tuition or drug habit or what have you.oh you poor, poor strippers. i had no idea! you see, it's a 24/7 barrel of laughs and strawberry fields for us customers. i mean, we love it when strippers tell us their boner killing stories. we like it when you make our wienies go limp in a stripclub. we love it when strippers can't bother to rouse themselves to even perform the bare minimum level of service. we love getting caught up in the latest stripper drama. in fact, it's so much fun. i urge all customers to emulate strippers. i want customers to start telling their clients about how much you need them to buy your half-assed product because a family member needs an operation or they're going to die.

Yes.okay. well, it doesn't matter how many reasons why we write TR. it doesn't matter why you think we write them. in the end, you still find them personally uncomfortable.

What I really meant however, was that if it were for comparison shopping purposes, the lack of identifying details, both in club and dancer, as well as the whole concept of YMMV is kind of working against it. So it doesn't seem like that is its real purpose.there's a reason behind that logic. it's like i told, evan. the most important details are in the PM (the club, dancer's name, etc). believe me, no one wants to kill the golden pussy.

All you guys pride yourselves on your saying no ability. Trying to sell a dance in a club, is not the same as asserting dominance on a message board. I don't even know where you get the similarity from, actually.well, don't you girls pride yourself on your hustling ability in any given situation? you don't think strippers try to force themselves upon customers with the hard sell? some of those posts in hustle hut will get you a quick "no" from me. however, that's not to say that it won't be effective on some much weaker customer a stripper can run over like a door mat.

mr_punk
07-11-2005, 02:37 PM
So am I a dickhead because I was on guard against that kind of lie? Because I chose not to spend what is at least to me a significant amount of money if I didn't get the service for it I wanted? (Note that I wasn't impolite. Note that I didn't demand any kind of service. I just asked her what her rules were, and then demurred when they didn't match what I wanted for $900.)sure...in the eyes of many strippers. you are a dickhead. so is the customer who doesn't tip her on stage, etc. many strippers think that customers should spend money in the manner of the stripper's choosing not the customer's. i disagree because the money is in rath's pocket not the stripper's g-string.

Actually, in some way I have the customers well divided up:well, that looks all very nice and neat and i'm sure it works very well...if you work as a stripper. however, if you want something more than schmucks and dickheads. you'll have to do better. BTW, what category would you classify that chump who took you doggie coat shopping? yeah..we know he's a nice man but that's a stripper euphemism for well paying customers.

Schmuks I find kind of intimidating - they pay too much attention to you, and sort of implicitly demand it back and they always seem a breath away from shoving you in a freezer, to take you out once a year to say "You're still so perfect." It's too much work, I don't care for it.oops, i see you already answered my question.

Mastridonicus
07-11-2005, 02:44 PM
Mr_Punk: your avatar makes me think of the 'Farting' thread in 'Ladies Only'

Just thought I'd share :D

lol.

I am soooo going to die alone.

Rath
07-11-2005, 02:52 PM
well, don't you girls pride yourself on your hustling ability in any given situation? you don't think strippers try to force themselves upon customers with the hard sell? some of those posts in hustle hut will get you a quick "no" from me. however, that's not to say that it won't be effective on some much weaker customer a stripper can run over like a door mat.

Yeah. I mean, I think a large part of why that stripper I wrote about a couple of posts up was so pissed off was that I somehow had the temerity to decline a VIP with her even after 10 or 15 minute of her sitting in my lap making suggestive faces at me. I think she thinks that we unattractive middle-aged customers are just supposed to melt when exposed to that stuff. (And I BOUGHT some dances -- it wasn't like I was getting jollies saying "no" to her.)

Jenny
07-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Rath - I, on the other hand, absolutely could believe that you are only interested in blowjobs. Customers who ask me frequently worry about offending me (like I said, I seem nice) and I tell them that I DO work there - I'm not going to say yes, but I'm not shocked and appalled. As for what I think you should do - whatever you want, failing screwing the girl around. The only time I ever got offended at a customer not buying a VIP was after they agreed to and then dicked me around for about 10 minutes. I hate that. As for the girl lyingly licking her lips - I don't know that I qualify that as a lie. I bite my lower lip while looking up at customers during lapdances - it's just a way to act, it doesn't mean I just came. I mean, the alternative to acting cute/sexy is tapping your nails while you dance. And what she was probably pissed off about? Probably nothing to do with your temerity - she was probably just annoyed in general because she thought she had a sale, and then didn't.



okay...point taken..i think...i still have no idea what post you're referring. so, i'll take your word for it.
Thank you - seeing as we all know that strippers are filthy, vicious liars, that's very generous.


well, if you stop acting like a PL who doesn't know any better. i wouldn't have to reiterate the point.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I was just trying to do a deconstructive reading of the posts between the dancers and customers ON THIS SITE. I wasn't even talking about club interactions. I think you are a little defensive.


we like it when you make our wienies go limp in a stripclub. we love it when strippers can't bother to rouse themselves to even perform the bare minimum level of service. we love getting caught up in the latest stripper drama. in fact, it's so much fun. i urge all customers to emulate strippers. i want customers to start telling their clients about how much you need them to buy your half-assed product because a family member needs an operation or they're going to die. Again - I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about interaction ON THIS SITE, and how girls might be sore losers and have customer resentment. Do you have a lot of the girls PMing you begging for money for their sick parents? But, to respond anyway - if it didn't sometimes work nobody would ever do it. There are LOTS of customers who do love to get caught up in the stripper drama - the Ca's and the Cai's. It makes them feel like they are on the inside.


okay. well, it doesn't matter how many reasons why we write TR. it doesn't matter why you think we write them. in the end, you still find them personally uncomfortable. My level of comfort was never the point - if I don't like them, I don't have to read them. Am I uncomfortable with the possibility of guys discussing me on the internet - I don't love it, but it's happened before and it will probably happen again - well, now I only dance once a week or so. It might not happen again. Anyway, the trip report discussion was never to establish my comfort level with them.


there's a reason behind that logic. it's like i told, evan. the most important details are in the PM (the club, dancer's name, etc). believe me, no one wants to kill the golden pussy.
I'm sure - it still indicates that there is some other reason for the sharing.


well, don't you girls pride yourself on your hustling ability in any given situation?
Hee, hee, hee hee, hee. No. And hustling, in itself, is not asserting dominance. Do I think a stripper has ever, anywhere dominated a customer? Yes, but I don't think it is characteristic of the relationship. I've personally been spanked by a customer, but that doesn't mean that is something I would include in a description of an average lapdance.


you don't think strippers try to force themselves upon customers with the hard sell? some of those posts in hustle hut will get you a quick "no" from me. however, that's not to say that it won't be effective on some much weaker customer a stripper can run over like a door mat. Again, a hard sell is not the same as conversational domination between the sexes on a message board. Selling techniques - such as grab his ass when he is at the ATM (the last one I read) - do not parallel guys here demonstrating how little they pay for stripper pussy (and again - dude, if you are imagining seriously that you or they are doing it solely for each other, I think you have more self-delusion than the PL's you hold in such contempt). I recently posted in a NATO a very effective sell that involved stories of shape shifting lizards. Because I happened to melt the guy like an icecube with the story doesn't mean I was asserting dominance.

xdamage
07-11-2005, 04:37 PM
Actually, in some way I have the customers well divided up:


Sounds like about the right division to me. And good suggestion re: get a fucking cat. Here's my little buddy. He never charges me to pet him though he has tricked me into paying his room and board.

Casual Observer
07-11-2005, 04:37 PM
Some days I feel like I'm the only honest pinkie left out there.My honesty even got me requested to stay down here in in the deep dark dysmal abyss...

Yeah, you uppity bitch. How dare you diverge from the Pink nunnery monolithic groupthink?


I also respectfully disagree. Sometimes the best way to live out a fantasy is to pay for it. Or get paid for it. Know what I mean?

Truth. This is why I like SCs, one reason among many, anyway.

FBR
07-11-2005, 04:49 PM
Sounds like about the right division to me. And good suggestion re: get a fucking cat. Here's my little buddy. He never charges me to pet him though he has tricked me into paying his room and board.

Well, hell, if xdamage like pussy cats he cant be all bad ;D

We have two pussys at home, females. They both have stripper sounding names which...uh...I had nuttin to do with :P ;)

FBR