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BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 10:40 AM
Big Green, again, you don't know what you're talking about.
exactly how many time do you feel the need to point that out and have me admit it???


1-The 6 foot rule that is ignored in Tampa doesn't apply to Pasco clubs. They are in different areas and the laws are different.

well,instead of reminding me and the forum that i dont know what im talking about,how about you honor the request of some posters and tell us what the laws are for that county.
Wouldnt that be easy??

Or could it be you dont know at all??
I have found that MOST custies DONT know the laws of the clubs they walk into from county to county,they think whatever going on inside the club must be legal.


2-These are not "high mileage, extras" clubs. I wouldn't call them fringe clubs either. I've never been in these places but I've driven by them. They look like your average, run of the mill semi-suburban SCs. The girls in these clubs were giving your standard, garden variety lap dances. As they are described in the police reports, I've witnessed ten times as much mileage at Mons and other places, especially in So Fla (Tootsie's is a prime example in Miami).

You have never been in them,so as you say I dont know what im talking about,
guess what,
you dont either.


3-These raids are a scare tactic meant to satisfy bible thumping old biddies. If you're cool with that, and think this is just a way to thin out the herd so big chains can dominate and drive what you perceive as crappy clubs out of the biz, then be prepared for the chains to be targeted next.

Are you pissed because you cant get mileage from a lapdance???

If not,exactly why are you upset that the law is being inforced??

I know as a custie,its not in your best interest,but im all for WHATEVER stops the extras.
I can see why you would not want that.

The top clubs and the chains wont care,they are trying to stay within the law already,They cant afford not to.

Whats worse?????

A bible thumper who wants clubs regulated???
or
A custie who wants it wide open for extras???

Sorry Hyde,im siding with the bible thumpers on this one.

This industry needs regulations,and they need to be enforced.
Not for me or you,but for the protection of the girls themselves,who may not care at 18 about a black mark of prostitution on thier record,but will when they are 35.
I dont think the Vegas gambling model will work as someone suggested,but i sure think its a good place to look for ideas,cause imo,some of the ideas would work for our industry.
Start with regulating the owners and management would help alot imo.

Then,
And im sure your not gonna like this one,
They should bust the girl AND the custie.
Just like they target the johns in street stings.

HA!!!!!

You want to help stop extras,arrest the guys trying to get them,not just the girls who feel driven to doing them.


But then again,yadda yadda yadda,I dont know wtf im talking about.(so no need to point it out for the class again)

michele1
07-31-2005, 12:42 PM
Actually pasco county clubs are fairly new so this law which is a statewide law was meant to target pasco clubs because they can be nude and have alcohol.

michele1
07-31-2005, 12:45 PM
Actually pasco county clubs are fairly new so this law which is a statewide law was meant to target pasco clubs because they can be nude and have alcohol. This new law alows for officers to go into any strip club in any part of florida and be offended and arrest. Its just a matter of what counties want to wastw money doing it. This law went into effect july 1st. This is the first raid so far. I saw it happen in clearwater years ago to and these were bikini bars with no private table dance areas and tame dances. These clubs were harrases for a while now there onto pasco. Nothing new.

Melonie
07-31-2005, 12:52 PM
Im ok with the 1 in 5 clubs closing down and im ok with 7's and lessor leaving the industry. What customer goes to a club looking for a 4 and doesnt have extras on his mind???
Thats why he goes to that club and not the showbar down the road.

A bit of confusion here I think. A strict anti-dance club law environment with heavy enforcement against 'extras' of any kind every single night would lead to one squeaky clean zero contact show club remaining open (employing only '9's and '10's) and and four closed down 'regular' clubs out of every five clubs which previously existed, with virtually all girls who were not '9's and '10's being left with no club to work at. 20% of the original customer base (the upscale business, tourist segment) would continue to patronize the show clubs, but 80% of the original customer base would move on to massage parlors, local bars etc.


They also have a lot less incentive to do it when the clubs are sending "anonymous" checks to the local LE's Widows and Orphans fund. Its hard to get eggs from the golden goose if you end up killing her. Strip clubs owners have learned, much like bordello owners before them, that enforcement is nine-tenths of the law.

Ain't that the truth ! However, in today's conservative political climate, you can't count on the fact that politicians and cops will 'stay bought', meaning that even when sleazy clubowners continue to 'pony up' there is still a risk of an unannounced bust if political conditions warrant it.


These are not "high mileage, extras" clubs. I wouldn't call them fringe clubs either. I've never been in these places but I've driven by them. They look like your average, run of the mill semi-suburban SCs. The girls in these clubs were giving your standard, garden variety lap dances. As they are described in the police reports, I've witnessed ten times as much mileage at Mons and other places, especially in So Fla (Tootsie's is a prime example in Miami).

This is merely confirmation of the fact that the VAST majority of lap dances being given in clubs all over Florida (and all over the country for that matter) are technically against the law, that a zealous DA and a motivated mayor could bust any one of them at any given time, and that the dancers WILL wind up with a misdemeanor charge on their record as a result. The argument regarding 'relative sleaze' i.e. outright sex acts being available in some clubs versus heavy grinding and a bit of crotch grabbing being available in other clubs doesn't mean s#!t from a legal standpoint as they both technically constitute prostitution under a strict interpretation of the law. If there is a REAL difference it is monetary, i.e. girls willing to provide outright sex acts in exchange for money earn a lot more than girls who are only willing to do heavy grinding, while both face the same prostitution charge, the same fine, and the same black mark on their record.

Ironically, this actually means that 'extras' girls can afford better lawyers and actually stand a better chance of walking away from a bust than girls who only do heavy grinding and earn much less ! This also guarantees that any 'sleazy clubs' which remain open and continue to play the revolving door game of busts, fines, and back to business will only get sleazier and sleazier.


But you know that's not going to pass any legislature. For one, there'd be a public outcry from some of the moron majority that the state was "sanctioning" sex businesses through establishing such a law, and secondly, the clubs would throw all their money and politicking against it. Nope, it's easier just to round up the usual suspects every so often to make it look like they're doing something. The result will be a lower class of employee in the clubs with little more to lose by performing illegal extras. My prediciton is that authorities will never actually follow through to the extent needed to shut down the high mileage clubs. Therefore, BG, don't hold your breath.

This is exactly what has happened in other states. 'Clean' dancers who are '9's and '10's migrate to the few remaining show clubs and cater to the zero contact businessmen/tourist business. "Dirty" dancers continue to earn big money at 'sleazy' clubs, are periodically busted, and play the revolving door game. The segment which disappears are 'middle of the road' clubs, because customers simply won't buy air dances from girls who are '7's and '8's when they can get the same air dances from '9's and '10's at a show club or they can get 'extras' from '7's and '8's at a 'sleaze' club.


Dont alot of states have a three strikes rule??
Wont it be a felony after the third time of the same offense??

And while Shanna may be smiling now,im sure in the future the black marks on her record for prostitution will come back to haunt her or hamper her.

Where 'victimless' crimes are concerned, no. As I said, having 50 prostitution busts on your record is really no worse than having two. In some states there IS a difference between having 1 and 2 though, in that girls who choose to leave the business after their first bust do stand a chance of having the record of their first bust expunged after some period of time has passed without futher charges of any kind being brought. Therefore many girls who are concerned about their future in the 'straight job' world are forced to quit dancing after their first bust.

But for those girls who for whatever reason choose to continue and wind up with a second prostitution charge, from that point forward it doesn't matter a bit whether there are 2 or 10 or 50 charges accumulated on their criminal record - they are all going to be treated the same way in the 'straight job' world. From that point forward all that really matters is making money, and from that standpoint offering 'extras', HJ's, BJ's, FS etc. provide progressively higher earnings potential with absolutely zero additional legal or financial risk if/when they are busted yet again. This is the mechanism that guarantees that 'sleazy' clubs will only get sleazier.

doc-catfish
07-31-2005, 01:08 PM
Whats worse?????

A bible thumper who wants clubs regulated???

A custie who wants it wide open for extras???

Sorry Hyde,im siding with the bible thumpers on this one.

This industry needs regulations,and they need to be enforced.
Okay, what if the regulations are so strict and so tightly enforced that the very people you need to come into the club to spend money don't want to come in anymore?

I'm not talking about guys seeking extras here, just ordinary joes out looking for a plain vanilla lap dance or two. Its a little hard for clubs and the people who work inside of them to make money when the local authorities have effectively prohibited the very thing that generates 80-90 percent of customer expenditures. We certainly aren't coming in for the overpriced beer.

The point of a distance rule isn't to prevent extras. Its to attempt to shut clubs down by taking away the very thing that makes the club's business model financially viable. I enjoy going to see my ATF, but there's no way in hell I would spend the kind of money I do on her if I had to enjoy her company from three, four, or six feet away.

The owners of clubs under such rules, (and dancers working in them), essentially have two choices:

1. Violate the ordinances at whatever level local enforcement will allow.
2. Obey them and kiss their business goodbye.

These "extras girls" more often than not, aren't cheating because they want to, its because under the legal and economic circumstances they are working under, they pretty much have to. To paraphrase an old saying gun control opponents use, "if lap dances are outlawed, only outlaws will give lap dances".

If the authorities really wanted to prevent extras, they'd narrowly define prostitution the way it should be, an actual act of sex (vaginal, oral, digital, etc.) for money, and tell the club that if they catch someone stepping over the line, the penalties will be severe. However, any activities that fall short of that definition (like say lap dances) are all fine and dandy. This way, activities that Joe Blow customer is still willing to pay for are still legal, and dancers have plenty of incentive, both legal and monetary to stay within the stated rules.

Melonie
07-31-2005, 01:30 PM
If the authorities really wanted to prevent extras, they'd narrowly define prostitution the way it should be, an actual act of sex (vaginal, oral, digital, etc.) for money, and tell the club that if they catch someone stepping over the line, the penalties will be severe. However, any activities that fall short of that definition (like say lap dances) are all fine and dandy. This way, activities that Joe Blow customer is still willing to pay for are still legal, and dancers have plenty of incentive, both legal and monetary to stay within the stated rules.

Agreed from a theoretical standpoint. However, from the standpoint of political reality this will never really happen because it would require that some politician take a stand in favor of 'legalizing' lap dances - undoubtedly causing a thunderous backlash from the christian coalition and other local voters. Instead, other than the '9's and '10's who are actually able to work in a zero contact zero bust risk show club environment, every other club and all other dancers wind up having to work with one eye constantly over their shoulder in a 'catch 22' situation - if they stick to the letter of the law they starve to death, but if they do what's necessary to earn money they run the risk of being busted.

All I can say to Florida dancers is 'welcome to the rest of the USA', as this situation already exists in virtually every other state. The secret of success is the same though ... analyze the political climate surrounding every club you're considering working at, and avoid clubs in areas that are politically 'hot'.

BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 01:53 PM
If it were left up to me,this industries trend to turn all the clubs into lapdance assembly lines would end.
The focus would be on the exotic dancer on stage dancing.
The private dances would be only air dances,with no touching.

The amount of problems this would get rid of is staggering.

Good thing it aint up to me huh??lol

Melonie
07-31-2005, 02:30 PM
If it were left up to me,this industries trend to turn all the clubs into lapdance assembly lines would end.
The focus would be on the exotic dancer on stage dancing.
The private dances would be only air dances,with no touching.

The amount of problems this would get rid of is staggering.

Good thing it aint up to me huh??lol

What you're talking about is basically a return to the exotic dancing business model of 10-20 years ago. Unfortunately, the 'genie' has been let out of the bottle. Most of today's club customers have been spoiled by the availability of 'up close and personal' contact with dancers, and will never again pay big money to merely watch a nude girl from a distance. Well, maybe, but only if she's a '10' and there's no 'up close and personal' contact with other dancers to be found !.

BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 02:56 PM
What you're talking about is basically a return to the exotic dancing business model of 10-20 years ago. Unfortunately, the 'genie' has been let out of the bottle. Most of today's club customers have been spoiled by the availability of 'up close and personal' contact with dancers, and will never again pay big money to merely watch a nude girl from a distance. Well, maybe, but only if she's a '10' and there's no 'up close and personal' contact with other dancers to be found !.

sooo right,the cat is long out of the bag.

But those sure were the days.

20 years from now,when people are looking back on these days,I wonder how far the industry will be then.

any guesses???

cassidykarma
07-31-2005, 02:57 PM
I find it amusing that one of the police reports states that he got TWO dances. TWO......

after she already had done enough to permit arrest he still got another dance. How sweet of him huh? (Maybe she is his ATF?)

Soliciting a drink...My assumtion is this arrest was made on the fact that those girls were under age (they were) otherwise this would not have been an issue.

BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 03:09 PM
Soliciting a drink...My assumtion is this arrest was made on the fact that those girls were under age (they were) otherwise this would not have been an issue.

Ok I didnt know some were underage,and I hope the club is fined because of it.

In some states,you cant ask someone if they want a beer,even a waitress or bartender can do it.You cannot suggest booze,you can only suggest beverage,not beer or mixed drink.

In Va,to be in a strip club,the custie has to have a beverage in front of him at all times or its loitering,and against the law.
In Va,drink minimums are illegal.
In Va,a customer cannot have more then 2 drinks in front of them.(I forgot how many total ounces)
This also means a baller cant walk around the club with a bottle of dom like a rap video.
The bottle must be served with a glass.


There are alot of crazy rules and a dancer should know them all,and not take the owners or managers word for it.

michele1
07-31-2005, 03:29 PM
No it wasnt because they were underage. Its illegal to ask for a drink here in florida. When I worked at vip in chicago( super upper echelon club) the customers couldnt even buy you a drink. Same way in alot of states. Melonie I think you are under the impression theres all these upscale clubs here in the area of discusion and you sont live here so. The only sort of upscale club is thee doll house and um I worked there for 3 years and they get busted too and your assumtion that these clubs getting busted have 5 and 6s working there is wrong. The girls in the some of the clubs mentioned are 8s and 9s. Got news for ya in this area most of the 9s and 10s dont work at thee doll house.

Mr Hyde
07-31-2005, 04:09 PM
No, I haven't been in them but I know about them, have talked with friends who have been to Bare Assets specifically, so yes, I do know somewhat of what I speak.

Like I said, if you're ok with them going after these clubs, be prepared for the next thing, which is shutting down all clubs.

How you managed to shift this from a discussion about the stupidity of raiding clubs using bogus interpretations of laws to scare clubs away into a discussion of thinning out your interpretation of extras clubs, I don't know...

BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 04:31 PM
Like I said, if you're ok with them going after these clubs, be prepared for the next thing, which is shutting down all clubs.

Im ok with shutting down most of the clubs in the United states.
make it like a pro sports team if ya ask me,give each city its own 1 or two.

The quality would be better,not just for the entertainers,but also for the custies and thier wives.
Notice I said wives.
I want the clubs and the girls to be top shelf,a kind of place where a guy can bring his wife.
Im not sorry that the exotic dancers of the world would only be the top 8-10's.
Im not sorry that the clubs would have to be upscale and follow all local laws.

The only people who lose is the girls that cant make the cut,the girls who want and depend on the extras,and the custies who want more then just the fantasy.

There will always be strip clubs,i just dont want them to continue to head more towards the bunny ranch then a vegas show.


How you managed to shift this from a discussion about the stupidity of raiding clubs using bogus interpretations of laws to scare clubs away into a discussion of thinning out your interpretation of extras clubs, I don't know...
If you dont know,how the hell am I supposed to know,i dont know what the hell im talking about??



Maybe, if its not to much trouble,maybe you can tell us,under its current path and evolution,where you see strip clubs at in 20 years??

Do you have any guesses??

Tigerlilly
07-31-2005, 04:46 PM
Actually pasco county clubs are fairly new so this law which is a statewide law was meant to target pasco clubs because they can be nude and have alcohol. This new law alows for officers to go into any strip club in any part of florida and be offended and arrest. Its just a matter of what counties want to wastw money doing it. This law went into effect july 1st. This is the first raid so far. I saw it happen in clearwater years ago to and these were bikini bars with no private table dance areas and tame dances. These clubs were harrases for a while now there onto pasco. Nothing new.

So you are familar with these clubs and that county michele1 ?

A couple of questions for you then, if I may...

So in that county in FL it is legal to have exposure in a place that serves booze , right ? If so, then are the exposure arrests bogus ? I'm confused /:O

Due to a new law all contact dancing is illegal , right ? So nude air dances in an alcohol club is all that is legal in Pasco - Am I understanding this correctly ?

Tigerlilly
07-31-2005, 04:50 PM
There are alot of crazy rules and a dancer should know them all,and not take the owners or managers word for it.

Amen to that !

michele1
07-31-2005, 05:23 PM
Southern charm, yes the clubs have been operating this way for over 3 years now. With this new law enacted july 1st giving officers the right to be offended when entering adult esablishments I guess its not because of the arrests. I would think they would have to have a no lap dance ordinance effective in pasco which I dont think they do though. So if not the charges might not stick but with the new law ho knows. I am meeting with a lawyer to discuss this tommarow and will post more then.

Mr Hyde
07-31-2005, 05:55 PM
in 20 years? I don't know. If it were up to me, prostitution and drugs would be legal, and most antiquated blue laws and morality laws would be off the books. I think laws regarding what two consenting adults can do with each other are ridiculous. Arresting a woman because she took 20 bucks to sit on a guy's lap naked and move erotically is one the most asinine things I have ever heard. I assume you disagree?

BigGreenMnM
07-31-2005, 06:04 PM
in 20 years? I don't know. If it were up to me, prostitution and drugs would be legal, and most antiquated blue laws and morality laws would be off the books. I think laws regarding what two consenting adults can do with each other are ridiculous. Arresting a woman because she took 20 bucks to sit on a guy's lap naked and move erotically is one the most asinine things I have ever heard. I assume you disagree?
Nope,I agree to some degree.

I also think drugs should be legal,but only some,and not all.

I also think prostitution should be legal,controled,but legal.

I think the erotic dancing industry should not be involved on any level with either.

Melonie
07-31-2005, 07:05 PM
The only sort of upscale club is thee doll house and um I worked there for 3 years and they get busted too and your assumtion that these clubs getting busted have 5 and 6s working there is wrong. The girls in the some of the clubs mentioned are 8s and 9s. Got news for ya in this area most of the 9s and 10s dont work at thee doll house.

Not as large of a 'mistaken assumption' as you might think, Michele. Although Tootsies is about the only Florida club that brings in features regularly, I didn't miss out on the fact that lots of the '8's and '9's working there didn't seem to have a problem with 'up close and personal' customer attention. In fact I was getting funny feelings that I was actually in a club in San Francisco !

It doesn't surprise me at all to hear that under the previous (i.e. essentially bustproof) Florida legal setup that many of the '9's and '10's followed the money to the higher mileage clubs. However, under the new Florida legal setup where a very real risk of being busted now exists, I suspect that many of those '9's and '10's will migrate back to the 'safety' of upper echelon clubs like the DollHouse which will be forced to 'clean up their act' contact wise in order to appeal to the business/tourist crowd.

Kalandra
07-31-2005, 07:22 PM
BigGreen, give us one example of a locale where new laws like this were passed and the number of clubs actually decreased and/or the "dirty" clubs were closed. I never heard of this happening anywhere. In fact, all I've seen is that MORE clubs wind up opening and MORE dirty dancing goes on. Back up your claims or quitcher preachin!

I believe MA changed their laws and the number of SC's dwindled. Not sure if all the clubs are obeying the law but most are.

Tigerlilly
07-31-2005, 10:24 PM
I am meeting with a lawyer to discuss this tommarow and will post more then.

Oh yes, please do let us know whar the lawyer has to say as would be a good perspective to consider. Thanks.

evan_essence
07-31-2005, 10:28 PM
I also think drugs should be legal,but only some,and not all.
I also think prostitution should be legal,controled,but legal.
I think the erotic dancing industry should not be involved on any level with either.Well, by definition, the erotic dancing industry should include some grinding and heavy petting at the very least. On the other hand, if you mean the exotic dancing industry, it could confine itself to a more traditional burlesque type of show. ;D

I fail to see the logic in arguing there should not be clubs with lap dances permitted if we could get the laws changed, on a tier removed from the air dance clubs. If you believe prostitution should be legal, why shouldn't lap dancing in clubs be legal too? Doesn't make sense to argue that there should only be brothels and showbars with nothing in between. I think perhaps your argument actually should be that there should be a clear delineation, perhaps in the licensing, regulation and marketing of the differences, which would help the customer discern what's going on at each. But, again, the political reality is that's not going to happen.

I predict in 20 years or so, robotics will be perfected to the point where real women in these roles will be replaced by Stepford androids, rendering the prostitution laws moot since the only contact is with a machine. There'll be rentals you can take home, and the only money for women like me will be if we can "record" our personas and license them out to the manufacturers. Nevertheless, there will still be a running moral debate over whether or not I'm a whore for licensing my persona for that purpose. ::)

-Ev

evan_essence
07-31-2005, 10:57 PM
Due to a new law all contact dancing is illegal , right ? So nude air dances in an alcohol club is all that is legal in Pasco - Am I understanding this correctly ?Let me recap. Your conclusion is mostly correct, but the reasons are off. The new law merely makes it easier to enforce the old laws. In a previous case, Florida courts had ruled that the law at that time did not permit police officers to be the "offended" parties, that is, the ones to file the complaints. In other words, police couldn't go undercover to catch dancers doing something wrong like illegal contact. It was a legal loophole that pretty much made enforcement impossible. (What's a cop gonna do? Observe a customer and say, "Hey, buddy, I saw her grinding on your dick. Wanna file a complaint?") The new law was passed to remove that roadblock, allowing officers to file complaints as offended parties. So now, the cops can swoop in undercover and make the charges stick. The contact between the dancer and the customer's "sexual organ" was illegal before; there just wasn't any practical way for the cops to enforce it until now.

I'd love to be a defense attorney in one of these cases. "So officer, could you describe your state of turgidity for the court?" "Sticking up how many inches?" "Well, what I'm asking is, is it possible that she was trying to stay out of your way but you were just too big?" "Are you sure you want to answer 'no' to that question?" }:D

-Ev

Deogol
08-01-2005, 12:31 AM
Well, the next time a customer balks at some restriction - ask him if he voted for freedom in the last election and what he will do in the next one? Especially the local ones.

I still think when local elections come around, strip clubs should have a little flier they hand out to every customer at the door.

Mr Hyde
08-01-2005, 06:26 AM
Nope,I agree to some degree.

I also think drugs should be legal,but only some,and not all.

I also think prostitution should be legal,controled,but legal.

I think the erotic dancing industry should not be involved on any level with either.

In the eyes of those who like morality laws, they are, even if they were just like you wish them to be.

BigGreenMnM
08-01-2005, 07:14 AM
Well, by definition, the erotic dancing industry should include some grinding and heavy petting at the very least. On the other hand, if you mean the exotic dancing industry, it could confine itself to a more traditional burlesque type of show. ;D

erotic dancer,exotic dancer,titty dancer,burlesque dancer,Vegas showgirl,I want them all to mean the same thing.

If this industry was running as the traditional burlesque shows,do you think we would have many of the problems we do today?
[/quote]
I fail to see the logic in arguing there should not be clubs with lap dances permitted if we could get the laws changed, on a tier removed from the air dance clubs.[/quote]
well,lapdances werent illegal in many places,and thats how the industry got in,nobody saw it comming.
A club would start to offer them,or a club is bought by a chain club and introduces them to an area that didnt offer them,then its almost to late for the jurisdiction.
They have to scramble to make new laws to control it,not to stop it.
But then so much is grandfathered in that a club with a few good lawyers can play give and take,and in the end,still have some form of lapdance.



If you believe prostitution should be legal, why shouldn't lap dancing in clubs be legal too? Doesn't make sense to argue that there should only be brothels and showbars with nothing in between. I think perhaps your argument actually should be that there should be a clear delineation, perhaps in the licensing, regulation and marketing of the differences, which would help the customer discern what's going on at each. But, again, the political reality is that's not going to happen.
Thats what I want,a clear deffinition.
Strippers on one side of the line,and hookers on the other,with everyone able to see the lines that seperate between a dry fuck and a wet one.


I predict in 20 years or so, robotics will be perfected to the point where real women in these roles will be replaced by Stepford androids, rendering the prostitution laws moot since the only contact is with a machine. There'll be rentals you can take home, and the only money for women like me will be if we can "record" our personas and license them out to the manufacturers. Nevertheless, there will still be a running moral debate over whether or not I'm a whore for licensing my persona for that purpose. ::)

-Ev

lol kewl!!!!

Look how far the blow up doll has come in 20 years.If they can perfect the robot vagina to feel even CLOSE to real,hookers are going to have a hard time making money imo.
I still think the real life exotic dancers will have a stage,only the guys will have to go home to the ole bucket of bolts to get thier rocks off.

tampadancer
08-01-2005, 07:27 AM
Green, am I correct in the assumption that none of the girls who PAY YOU at the end of the night do so by giving lapdances? All the work at your club is done on stage or with no contact at all??

riiiiiiiiiiiight.

So, if all of the dancers at your club started refraining completely from any sort of contact and had no money to tip you out at the end of the night, you'd be okay with it, right?

Pretty_Penny
08-01-2005, 07:48 AM
i WISH they would arrest all the prostitutes working in strip clubs here in the tampa area. i'm not even saying prostitution should be illegal, i just don't think it belongs in a strip club. those girls need to work for an escort service. the problem with raids like this is that they go after EVERYONE dancing at the club. all they seem to care about is how many girls they can arrest, not wether or not they are doing anything wrong. "solicitation of alcohol" WTF! i was warned about that when i started at my club... i'm like "ok, so i'm not allowed to ask them for a drink, even though i'm an independant contractor, but i'm also not allowed to REFUSE a drink offered by them?" it's ridiculous. also... the exposure charges likely occured at a topless or bikini bar where the dances were not allowed to expose themselves. i still think it's a shitty charge though. i work in a bikini bar and sometimes a girl will flash her boobs in the back room for a customer. i don't do it because i'm super paranoid of undercover police, but i don't think flashing your tits should be such a big deal.

Archangel
08-01-2005, 07:54 AM
I just wanted to point something out. Exposure and Lewdness can now be prosecuted anywhere in Florida on the testimony of a single officer.

Define lewdness.

Lewdness can be considered nearly anything related to dancers. For example: In Pinellas County, it is even illegal to wear a visible thong in any public place. Last I checked, a place of business open to the public is considered a public place. They do enforce this at will.

In effect, even air dances are illegal if the woman is not fully clothed in at least a full coverge bikini. Hell, just walking around in provocative clothing is technically illegal. Expect this to spread though the state.

If you do a little digging in the news, some officials are even worried about the effect this little revision could have on events like Spring Break, Bike Week, Fantasy Fest and so on.

What it comes down to is that the current administration is making some important changes to propel Florida down the path of the "rightousness and morality" and there's not a thing anyone can do about it except to wait it out until the tide turns to civil liberty again.

Bunny
08-01-2005, 08:43 AM
Lewdness can be considered nearly anything related to dancers. For example: In Pinellas County, it is even illegal to wear a visible thong in any public place. Last I checked, a place of business open to the public is considered a public place. They do enforce this at will.
I was at the State Attorney's Office in Clearwater and bent over in front of an attorney not knowing my skirt was unzipped. Luckily he was kind enough to tell me it was unzipped because none of the guys at the metal detectors or anyone else who may have seen had the decency to tell me. So I guess I could have been arrested for this, huh?

Archangel
08-01-2005, 08:46 AM
Only if they thought you did it on purpose. Still need to have intent, I believe. ;)

pet_rock
08-01-2005, 08:52 AM
OK, I started going to SC's 14 years ago here in Shreveport--a mid-sized bible-thumping town. Had to be SIX feet from the stage and the clubs gave you a 'tip-stick' which was a three foot dowel with a clothes-pin on the end so you could get the dancer her money. Pasties and thongs, NO lap dances, dancers not allowed to ask for drinks, dancers had to be 'street legal' in their dress on the floor, which usually meant mini-skirts or mini-dresses. (If they went outside they WOULD get a lot of looks, but not be arrested!) Bossier City was the same though you could be three feet from the stage.

It was also illegal for a customer to touch a dancer AT ALL whether she was on or off the stage, so when she would put her chair up next to mine and I would put my arm around her--that was technically illegal. When she put my hand midway between her thighs that was clearly illegal (but greatly appreciated!) but these relatively mild things which could be done in any neighborhood bar to an amenable stranger were ILLEGAL in a SC.

About 10 years ago they started using latex in place of the pasties...

About 5 years ago they started having a separate stage where you could go to buy a private show--you'd still be 3 feet away, though it would have more light than the main stage and it would just be you and the dancer so you could talk to her and maybe request what she do. (Did that once and thought it silly, BTW.)

I had a 4 year hiatus from going to SC's and during that time there was a HUGE fight here over Deja Vu getting a permit and opening and the bible-thumpers were, and still are, up in arms about it. (They're still fighting to have it closed down.) I almost decided to go visit just to thumb my nose at the prigs, but I wasn't 'free' to do so...

Two years ago I went into a club and found they had lap dances! Since they were clothed (dancer has to have a top and bootie shorts on) I didn't think much of it and declined getting any; it took my ATF to buy me a couple of them for me for Christmas that opened my eyes as to what a female body could do with a little ingenuity and a desire to turn a man on!

Now there is STILL a three or six foot law in place here so there should be no contact AT ALL, but NONE of the girls give an air dance. In fact, at the club I frequent they have 'dollar dances' where all the girls in the club circulate and they give you a 30-second lap dance on the floor for $1 so you can see if you want to buy a $20 dance! The only rule is 'Gentlemen, please don't touch the dancers!' but even that gets broken a lot.

The point being is that I had no idea what was going on in the clubs in my absence and I'm sure the bible-thumpers have completely no idea what the true state is--they would be even more up in arms than just the thought of women dancing semi-nude.

Back in the day I had more offers to meet up outside of the club for prostitution--but once I found an ATF that fell off my radar; since I found my ATFs quickly this time around it still may be going on now, though it seems it actually can transpire IN the SC??? (I'm naive, what can I say?)

The big club around here DID get raided 7 or 8 years back and a lot of girls I had known got busted for drugs or prostitution or lewd dancing...Just this Saturday (7/30/05) a Shreveport club got raided and five dancers busted for lewd dancing or public nudity, etc.; the club I go to now has never been raided per se, though my ATF said some girls have gotten tickets.

So back in the day with a 'show-bar' the dancers made money either by being a prostitute on the side (my supposition) or else by getting regulars like me who they would sit and TALK to. Now BigGreen seems to be advocating going back to this model, but I've read a LOT of comments from dancers on here that indicate that they would fail completely since they don't want to TALK to the customers at all--they just want to grind on them and go on to the next one...

...which is actually illegal in most if not all places. I know I DO like lap dances now and wish they could be made legal, but I just don't see any politicans passing legislation to make that happen--it's more likely to become more restrictive or to at least have cries for enforcement of current laws to placate the bible-thumpers. A don't ask, don't tell policy of what's going on in the SC's seems to be the best that can be hoped for.

If too much is going on for your comfort as a dancer OR as a customer, go to a different venue.

Archangel
08-01-2005, 09:35 AM
Looking back through history shows us the cycles of "morality." The current rash of government figureheads overstepping their boundaries on matters of personal freedom and choice has happened before. It will eventually reverse for a while. Then happen all over again. After all, history always repeats itself although not in exactly the same way... It is simply human nature.

These types of laws can be fought. And sometimes you can win. But the question becomes: Do you really want to be the one that fights it at the expense of your own time and money? :-\

doc-catfish
08-01-2005, 09:37 AM
So back in the day with a 'show-bar' the dancers made money either by being a prostitute on the side (my supposition) or else by getting regulars like me who they would sit and TALK to. Now BigGreen seems to be advocating going back to this model, but I've read a LOT of comments from dancers on here that indicate that they would fail completely since they don't want to TALK to the customers at all--they just want to grind on them and go on to the next one...

...which is actually illegal in most if not all places. I know I DO like lap dances now and wish they could be made legal, but I just don't see any politicans passing legislation to make that happen--it's more likely to become more restrictive or to at least have cries for enforcement of current laws to placate the bible-thumpers. A don't ask, don't tell policy of what's going on in the SC's seems to be the best that can be hoped for.
I'll be very honest with you, I don't think a lot of strip club owners ever want to see lap dances get any sort of legally protected status. In many ways, the mainstreaming of the business, and oversupply which has resulted from it has taken a lot of the naughtiness out of it, and hence has mitigated a lot the profits.

Also, once something is legal, the government can start taxing it. Once they know how much tax that a club is generating, they can use that information to get a framework of how much revenue a club actually takes in versus what the owners reported to the IRS. Not a pretty scenario, esspecially if a club owner has some shady connections, or "investments" in a considerably more nefarious enterprise.

Katrine
08-01-2005, 09:37 AM
I just want to grind and go on to the next one for the most part.

BigGreenMnM
08-01-2005, 09:47 AM
Green, am I correct in the assumption that none of the girls who PAY YOU at the end of the night do so by giving lapdances? All the work at your club is done on stage or with no contact at all??

riiiiiiiiiiiight.

So, if all of the dancers at your club started refraining completely from any sort of contact and had no money to tip you out at the end of the night, you'd be okay with it, right?
all the girls I have worked with for many years have depended on lapdances more then stage money.
Im just entertaining ideas to reverse the trends.
It would be crazy for any one club to make a stand against lapdances at this point.
I think it has to be a minimum of statewide or at best industrywide for it to work.

Deogol
08-01-2005, 10:40 AM
As far as the bible thumpers go - between the islamic terrorists and the christian right - religious groups are getting a little tiresome on people's patience. It will probably be another five years or so, but I bet the pendulum will swing wide to the other side by then.

Tigerlilly
08-01-2005, 10:44 AM
I just wanted to point something out. Exposure and Lewdness can now be prosecuted anywhere in Florida on the testimony of a single officer.

Define lewdness.

Lewdness can be considered nearly anything related to dancers. For example: In Pinellas County, it is even illegal to wear a visible thong in any public place. Last I checked, a place of business open to the public is considered a public place. They do enforce this at will.

In effect, even air dances are illegal if the woman is not fully clothed in at least a full coverge bikini. Hell, just walking around in provocative clothing is technically illegal. Expect this to spread though the state.

If you do a little digging in the news, some officials are even worried about the effect this little revision could have on events like Spring Break, Bike Week, Fantasy Fest and so on.

What it comes down to is that the current administration is making some important changes to propel Florida down the path of the "rightousness and morality" and there's not a thing anyone can do about it except to wait it out until the tide turns to civil liberty again.

Excellant post !

Someone asked where SC's will be in 20 years.

I am sad to say I think SC's will all be illegal and a thriving black market will be the result. The holy rollers want to be able to say they wiped the industry out but it will just go underground where it is easier to ignore.

michele1
08-01-2005, 11:41 AM
Yes and once that happens they will be mostly all out brothels. Instead of just going in and enforcing the law correctly, they make bogus arrests for anything. Which in turn makes things worse. When they banned lap dances in pinellas they started doing stand up dances to get around it. Then after a few years it just went back to regular dances and they hardly get busted much anymore. Who knows whats going to happen.

threlayer
08-01-2005, 11:49 AM
...I know the dancers can't sue for having their names in the paper, but what about their addresses? I mean, granted it doesn't take much to find a woman's address through her name (unless she is living with someone else, or uses a different last name for dancing), but should the press & smoking gun be able to put their addresses out there for all to see?

In this case the 'smoking gun ' website published their official complaint affidavits for many of them. If the crime had been theft, or drunken driving, or illegal possession, their names, ages, and address would have been published in the paper and sometimes they (most likely the drunken driving charge) would get TV coverage. Media normally takes no precautions except for underaged kids.

I guess they take away your right to privacy of the have a complaint about you. It doesn't seem right to me, at least until you are convicted.


Bush's policeman complainant law is here in NYS already. This kind of lap dance is very common here and would not get a dancer busted locally. The regionality of these sex-related laws and enforcement actions would seem unfair, but the courts allow it for local 'sensitivities.' If you don't like those problems in your locale, you should just move to where your activities are more accepted. That's what this is saying.



...isn't there a way dancers could get around the whole prostitution risk? Like stating upfront that the all monies are for ... whatever is "legal" ... only and anything else (contact) is because, I don't know, "I like you" or otherwise for free? Just trying to think outside of the box here...

I like this idea, trying to work around the laws and forcing 'entrapment' or some exclusion of the arrest, even if it happens. Dancers might give air dances until the customer asks for more closeness, asking if you are sure it's all right and no one will complain. If the cops ask this (too) and then give encouragement, maybe it is arguable as entrapment if they then complain. It won't help if the dancer takes his thing out (not that I will complain), or allows him to, or diddles herself, because this wasn't asked for and is obvious. Still it may help get past the 'air dance' requirement.




(Sometimes, as I've noticed recently, a person's anger comes out during these asinine/unfair situations, and that person's expressions seem to take on a life of their own, somewhat separate from the normal flow, and the topic almost gets hijacked. Not that I'm really complaining or anything.)

prrfektwurld
08-01-2005, 11:53 AM
What cracks me up is that the police officers had some drinks, bought some dances, and had a good ol' time before arresting the dancers! That's fucking bullshit. I thought cops weren't supposed to drink on the job anyway?

As for the whole question about asking if someone is a police officer, it's called entrapment. In prostitution, if you ask someone if he is a police officer and he says no and then busts you, it doesn't stick because it's police entrapment. It's a violation of unreasonable search and seizure.

If these women got good lawyers and took it all the way, I doubt any of the convictions would stick because of entrapment. But the problem is that lawyers and court is expensive. Dancers don't want to do that. Cops know that. So they fucking do whatever.

Our country needs to get the fuck over it's obsession with "whores." It's like, everyone loves a "whore" and yet when push comes to shove, no one wants to be around or stand up for "whores." And by whores I mean women who refuse to play along to the "good girls don't" or "good girls only have enjoyable sex with and are only seen naked by their husbands" crap.

For the record, yes, Carol Leigh is my hero.

Mr Hyde
08-01-2005, 12:18 PM
There's a lawyer who works for the Mons owner locally named Luke Lirot. This guy is something like 100% victorious on cases like these and he seems to always defend strippers at clubs in the area. I'm sure he'll be involved with this somehow.

Bunny
08-01-2005, 03:04 PM
In prostitution, if you ask someone if he is a police officer and he says no and then busts you, it doesn't stick because it's police entrapment. It's a violation of unreasonable search and seizure.


I have heard a female officer who goes undercover and arrests Johns talk about how the guys always ask "Are you a cop?" and think that she has to tell them yes if she is but she doesn't have to. She said this in the presense of a defense attorney (who used to also be a prosecutor) and a prosecutor. If she was incorrect I'm sure at least the defense attorney would have begged to differ but he didn't. He just said that if they have all their teeth, usually she's a cop. (We're talking streetwalkers here...)

Anyway, I'm not saying someone couldn't argue a case. I'm probably going to start studying for my LSAT and go back to law school. I love to argue.
}:D

lenny_nero
08-01-2005, 03:19 PM
While showbars are great, lets be realistic- they hardly exist anymore. Dancers make their money giving lapdances.

I think your perceptions are skewed by living in an area that has lap dance clubs.

I've lived several different places across the country, right now I live in Virginia near Washington, DC. None of the areas I lived in had lap dance clubs, they've all had what you call showbars. Heck, in VA they aren't even topless, just pasties and g-strings...DC has full-nude dancing. Neither has any table, couch, lap, or other "contact" dances, though in some of the more raucous clubs in DC you will get some minimal contact.

You have to go to West Virginia or Baltimore to find a lap dance club.

A couple other places I've lived don't have any strip clubs at all.

Of course as melonie notes:


A strict anti-dance club law environment with heavy enforcement against 'extras' of any kind every single night would lead to one squeaky clean zero contact show club remaining open (employing only '9's and '10's) and and four closed down 'regular' clubs out of every five clubs which previously existed, with virtually all girls who were not '9's and '10's being left with no club to work at. 20% of the original customer base (the upscale business, tourist segment) would continue to patronize the show clubs, but 80% of the original customer base would move on to massage parlors, local bars etc.

DC and VA do not appear to have any shortage of massage parlors.

dlabtot
08-01-2005, 03:26 PM
standard disclaimer: IANAL

Cops can lie to you all they want, they can be deceptive during interogation, etc.... none of those things automatically qualifies as 'entrapment'... entrapment is when they induce you to commit a crime you would not have committed without their involvement.

Examples:


citizen: want some drugs?
cop: how much?
citizen: are you a cop?
cop: no
citizen: $XXX

definitely not entrapment


cop: can you get me some drugs?
citizen: are you a cop?
cop: no
citizen: $XXX

possibly entrapment

Melonie
08-01-2005, 06:12 PM
Cops can lie to you all they want, they can be deceptive during interogation, etc.... none of those things automatically qualifies as 'entrapment'... entrapment is when they induce you to commit a crime you would not have committed without their involvement.

This is ABSOLUTELY true. Also, keep in mind that when a dancer's case comes before a judge and jury, there is absolutely no guarantee that the arresting officer is going to be 100% forthright and accurate in his testimony if you catch my drift. Given that your typical jury is made up of retirees, bible thumping local yokels, housewives who are angry at their husband's trips to strip clubs, civil servants with a vested interest in not pissing off the mayor's office etc. - mostly jurors whose entire knowledge of strip clubs and 'strippers' is based on portrayals by Hollywood in movies and on TV - dancers shouldn't expect to be given the benefit of the doubt versus a local cop. In the absence of indisputable hard evidence i.e. a VIP room security tape showing exactly what a dancer did and didn't do while giving the arresting officer a lap dance, in the eyes of the jury whatever the officer says you did, you did !

Attempting to prove that the arresting officer is not telling the whole truth, or attempting to prove entrapment, or attempting to prove that you did not violate the letter of the law, is basically an impossible dream at the city/county court level. The normal result is that the dancer gets an even larger fine and/or more time in the slammer because she had the audacity to claim that she was innocent !

Yes it is possible to appeal a lower court conviction at the state level, and the odds of having the 'truth' come out during the appeal are actually rather good. However, to even get started on filing an appeal will cost you $5,000 in legal fees. Add in travel expenses, lost income etc. to appear in court (perhaps several times) in a city perhaps 150 miles or more away from where the dancer lives and works, and proving your innocence can get really expensive !

london
08-01-2005, 06:24 PM
MnM,
Just because something is the LAW doesnt make it right. Hell, I would still be considered 3/5 of a person/vote if we just went by the laws of the land. I agree with Tina. Idiotic laws stifling the sex industry ought to be challenged. Why are we allowed to see intense scenes of violence and aggression EVERYDAY on tv, cartoons, movies, etc and wonder why we're one of the most violent "civilized" countried on Earth....does the fact that is is legal to see these images make them morally right? But sexual gratification is somehow soooo wrong that you want to brand women for life with a controversial label? I don't particularly LIKE extras going on in my club, but there are plenty of men who don't want the whole shebang and there are plenty of managers who fire girls who go too far..Why would the extras girls ever quit doing what they are doing...what other respectable job could they get with their shiny scarlet letter on their public record? I don't know..Just because a law is a law doesn't make it moral or right. A lot of laws are merely to appease certain influential segments of the population for that particular time period!!!

michele1
08-01-2005, 06:49 PM
Well I just met with our attorney. I wont mention names here but he was mentioned earlier. Basically last time this happened all the cases were thrown out. There are no anti lap dance ordinances were this occured hence the prostitution charges which he believes will be thrown out because most of what was on the reports does not constitute as prostitution. The exposure charges were supposedly for girls exposing more of theirselves if you know what I mean. These clubs are lisenced for nudity so it wasnt a matter of plain old nudity. The clubs are paying for all the girls defences. I also asked the question of weather the club owners can get charges as well and he said the club can be closed down for 1 year with 2 prostitution charges. Tese cases will be in appeals for months so we wont even know the outcome for sometime.

evan_essence
08-02-2005, 06:56 AM
Two years ago I went into a club and found they had lap dances! Since they were clothed (dancer has to have a top and bootie shorts on) I didn't think much of it and declined getting any; it took my ATF to buy me a couple of them for me for Christmas that opened my eyes as to what a female body could do with a little ingenuity and a desire to turn a man on!

Now there is STILL a three or six foot law in place here so there should be no contact AT ALL, but NONE of the girls give an air dance. I'm speculating that the distance rule applies to a nude dancer but not a clothed one. At least, that's the way a new law taking effect at the end of August in Missouri is written. I suspect customers who currently are satisfied with a nude lap dance with limits will pay for a clothed dance only if there are no limits. From the dancer's perspective, a uniformed cop could walk in and instantly tell you're nude and too close to the customer, but only an undercover dick can tell what's being done to it in a dark corner by an allegedly clothed dancer. Thus, the law will accomplish the exact opposite of what was intended.

-Ev