View Full Version : 5 Tampa area clubs raided
Melonie
08-02-2005, 09:25 AM
There are no anti lap dance ordinances were this occured hence the prostitution charges which he believes will be thrown out because most of what was on the reports does not constitute as prostitution. The exposure charges were supposedly for girls exposing more of theirselves if you know what I mean. These clubs are lisenced for nudity so it wasnt a matter of plain old nudity. The clubs are paying for all the girls defences. I also asked the question of weather the club owners can get charges as well and he said the club can be closed down for 1 year with 2 prostitution charges. Tese cases will be in appeals for months so we wont even know the outcome for sometime.
Well, for the busted dancers' sake, I hope that they realize that the 'free' legal services being provided for them by the club may in fact result in their own legal asses being thrown to the wolves in a plea bargain arrangement. Every single time I have heard of this happening, ultimately the club's attorney and the DA wind up working out a 'horse trade' which involves convicting the dancers of something or other via plea bargains, in exchange for dropping any and all criminal charges against the club/clubowner.
As to the prostitution charges being thrown out, I highly doubt that this will happen at the city/county court level. This could very well happen at the state appeals court level, however to get there involves some $5,000 worth of legal fees per defendant to file a state superior court appeal. I highly doubt that the clubowner is prepared to be that generous. Stand by for the 'next step' in this scenario if it goes down similarly to other areas - the club announcing that it now needs to keep 50% of all private dance money to cover legal fees.
Archangel
08-02-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm not so sure about that in this situation, Mel. The charges probably will not stick in this particular case.
I am of the opinion that the raids are being done as a scare tactic. How many girls will want to dance knowing that it may cost them having their pictures and personal info plastered everywhere? How many want to even chance the months of litigation and mental anguish of the fight?
They know that the club owners have the money and drive to fight for as long as it takes down in this state. Just look at Joe Redner. There are too many customers to be able to go after them. The next logical answer is to go after the dancers. Most will not have the means to fight or want to suffer possible public humiliation, so they will slowly go away. It's working wonderfully for thr RIAA and MPAA.
Use cutting down a tree as an analogy. The roots are the businesses. The girls are the trunk and the customers are the leaves. Where is the most efficient place to attack to take it down?
And yes, you are right in thinking that all this will do is drive exotic entertainment out of the clubs and into the underground scene, more than it already is.
Tigerlilly
08-02-2005, 03:30 PM
I am very interested to read the laws for myself . Does anyone have a link to the actual laws pertaining to SC's in Pasco county ?
Thanks !
DancerNTampa
08-02-2005, 10:33 PM
hahah....number 014 has a nice lil herpes sore on her lip...yummy!! hahaha
and number 016 has a black eye...
what great representations of our industry...
these clubs are only about 30 minutes from me, and ive been to see them...theyre awful...
DancerNTampa
08-02-2005, 10:37 PM
So they asked for a drink? Or they exposed themselves....during the course of a NUDE dance? That is just fucked up. There is no reason to post their mug shots with their full names. Horrible. >:(
I dont know how the laws vary in different states, but here in the Tampa Bay area, its illegal to ASK for a drink...i dont know WHY, but it is...any time ive ever worked in a liquor bar...(here, full nude=no liquor..nude=no liquor)...the manager always makes it clear never to ASK for a drink from a custy...
Also...the exposure of a sexual organ must refer to the exposure of the customers organ, not hers...thats what i would assume, anyway....Ive been in my club when it was raided for a 6 ft rule that is no longer enforced, and we never got in trouble for exposing our own cookies ;)
Archangel
08-03-2005, 07:25 AM
Also...the exposure of a sexual organ must refer to the exposure of the customers organ, not hers...thats what i would assume, anyway....Ive been in my club when it was raided for a 6 ft rule that is no longer enforced, and we never got in trouble for exposing our own cookies ;)
Actually, it is for exposing herself. That's the beauty of the new change. Only the officer needs to be "offended" to be able to bring up charges and force it to trial. Lewdness is nearly any intentional behavior that can potentially offend someone's personal sense of decency.
Times are changing... :-\
Archangel
08-03-2005, 08:01 AM
I am very interested to read the laws for myself . Does anyone have a link to the actual laws pertaining to SC's in Pasco county ?
Thanks !
Here's the codes for the entire country. Just click the state and then the county. You can do a seach within the code once you've selected where you want to look. http://www.municode.com/resources/online_codes.asp
To see the change made and the reasoning, go to http://www.flsenate.gov and "jump to" bill 730 in the 2005 session.
Amethyst
08-03-2005, 08:53 AM
The clubs are paying for all the girls defences. I also asked the question of weather the club owners can get charges as well and he said the club can be closed down for 1 year with 2 prostitution charges. Tese cases will be in appeals for months so we wont even know the outcome for sometime.
I would be REALLY REALLY careful about trusting the club owners to take care of the dancers' defense. An example (as well as an update on what's happening here in SAT), I can share is how my club's loser lawyer claimed to be fighting for all the dancers, telling them not to hire their own lawyers because he was taking care of it, the charges would only be for "lewd conduct", blah blah and for months, none of the dancers that had been ticketed did anything.
Well...about a month ago, there was a note on the housemom's mirror (she had mysteriously taken off) stating that the lawyer was going to drop the appeals unless the dancers forked over $200 for his legal defense. Oh, and that the money would be due within the next two days. Guess it sucked for those who weren't working until the weekend, huh? Those that didn't make it, ended up paying the fine for violating the human display ordinance AND it is on their record.
Jury is still out on those that did pay, but a fellow dancer who is paying for his legal services (ha!) recently went to pay a traffic fine and was asked by the clerk when was she planning on paying her fine for the no-touch ordinance.
In short, the club's lawyer is just that - the CLUB'S LAWYER. He is there to protect their interests, not the dancers'. Expensive as it is, I would recommend obtaining one's own legal services and not rely on the club.
Melonie
08-03-2005, 09:21 AM
I can share is how my club's loser lawyer claimed to be fighting for all the dancers, telling them not to hire their own lawyers because he was taking care of it, the charges would only be for "lewd conduct", blah blah and for months, none of the dancers that had been ticketed did anything.
This is exactly what I was talking about. The club's attorney did NOT try to fight to have the original charges against the dancers dropped, or allow the girls' cases to go to trial. Instead he plea bargained the charges down a notch (assumption from 'lewd conduct' a misdemeanor to 'public display' a violation ?) for the girls who paid him extra, and simply submitted a guilty plea with request for leniency for the girls who did not pay extra. Either way, the club's attorney's actions GUARANTEED that the dancers would wind up pleading guilty to something. And in the case of the plea bargained girls, the club's attorney's actions GUARANTEED that the girls' criminal records could not be easily expunged or that the charges cannot be appealed by a different attorney at a later date. Oh, and don't tell me ... not a single charge was made against the clubowner, right ? When the dancers' attorney is also the club's attorney, there is a subtle conflict of interest in progress i.e. the attorney will make sure that any charges against the club get dropped first, and THEN worry about the legal ramifications upon the dancers. As I said earlier, the DA will usually agree to drop charges against the club in exchange for the club's attorney handing on a silver platter bargained pleas to lesser charges by the dancers - which makes the DA happy since he has his convictions to publicize plus the city/county doesn't have to incur further court costs prosecuting the club or the girls.
While I'm not familiar with the specifics of Florida law, I've been more familiar with the specifics of similar laws in other states than I ever wanted to be. The last time an overzealous DA decided to make bogus charges against an easy target out of state feature dancer (me), it cost damn near $10,000 in legal fees, lost income, and travel/accomodation expenses to successfully fight the bogus charge through the state appellate court and prove my innocence. Even so, the only thing that guaranteed that my appeal would be successful was the existance of a club security tape showing exactly what did and did NOT happen on stage at the time the bogus bust was made.
Trust me these charges against the Florida girls are not going to just disappear, and no clubowner is going to bankroll a legal defense beyond the local/county level without expecting something major in return (like 50% of all future VIP money from every dancer in the club). If these Florida girls were thinking straight, they should pool their funds and hire a different attorney to defend them from the one the clubowner(s) are using.
Also, I haven't even mentioned the cruelest twist of all to these bogus busts. If any of these girls tries to move to Atlanta, Vegas, Texas etc. to dance, there is almost no chance whatsoever that they will be granted a dancer's license with a 'sex crime' conviction on their records. But it's also distinctly possible that Pasco County or the entire State of Florida for that matter could pass a dancer's licensing law tomorrow ... in which case every single one of these girls would be looking for a 'straight' job.
Melonie
08-03-2005, 09:57 AM
Also, the law you really want to look at is the Florida Prostition Law ---
796.07 Prohibiting prostitution, etc.; evidence; penalties; definitions.--
(1) As used in this section:
(a) "Prostitution" means the giving or receiving of the body for sexual activity for hire but excludes sexual activity between spouses.
(b) "Lewdness" means any indecent or obscene act.
(c) "Assignation" means the making of any appointment or engagement for prostitution or lewdness, or any act in furtherance of such appointment or engagement.
(d) "Sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another; anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; or the handling or fondling of the sexual organ of another for the purpose of masturbation; however, the term does not include acts done for bona fide medical purposes.
(2) It is unlawful:
(a) To own, establish, maintain, or operate any place, structure, building, or conveyance for the purpose of lewdness, assignation, or prostitution.
(b) To offer, or to offer or agree to secure, another for the purpose of prostitution or for any other lewd or indecent act.
(c) To receive, or to offer or agree to receive, any person into any place, structure, building, or conveyance for the purpose of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation, or to permit any person to remain there for such purpose.
(d) To direct, take, or transport, or to offer or agree to direct, take, or transport, any person to any place, structure, or building, or to any other person, with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the purpose of such directing, taking, or transporting is prostitution, lewdness, or assignation.
(e) To offer to commit, or to commit, or to engage in, prostitution, lewdness, or assignation.
(f) To solicit, induce, entice, or procure another to commit prostitution, lewdness, or assignation.
(g) To reside in, enter, or remain in, any place, structure, or building, or to enter or remain in any conveyance, for the purpose of prostitution, lewdness, or assignation.
(h) To aid, abet, or participate in any of the acts or things enumerated in this subsection.
(i) To purchase the services of any person engaged in prostitution.
(3) In the trial of a person charged with a violation of this section, testimony concerning the reputation of any place, structure, building, or conveyance involved in the charge, testimony concerning the reputation of any person residing in, operating, or frequenting such place, structure, building, or conveyance, and testimony concerning the reputation of the defendant is admissible in evidence in support of the charge.
(4) A person who violates any provision of this section commits:
(a) A misdemeanor of the second degree for a first violation, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(b) A misdemeanor of the first degree for a second violation, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(c) A felony of the third degree for a third or subsequent violation, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(5) A person who is charged with a third or subsequent violation of this section shall be offered admission to a pretrial intervention program or a substance-abuse treatment program as provided in s. 948.08.
(6) A person who violates paragraph (2)(f) shall be assessed a civil penalty of $500 if the violation results in any judicial disposition other than acquittal or dismissal. The proceeds from penalties assessed under this subsection shall be paid to the circuit court administrator for the sole purpose of paying the administrative costs of treatment-based drug court programs provided under s. 397.334.
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Even a quick read by a legal layman like myself indicates the following -
girls can be busted for 'Lewdness' based on ANY activity which the complaining officer considers to be 'indecent' or 'obscene' - presumeably showing the 'cookie' qualifies
girls can be busted for 'Prostitution' for masturbatory contact with the complaining officer's penis. Since there are no stated requirements to the contrary, doing this through the guy's pants vs. fully exposed makes no difference, rubbing it with a leg or other body part vs a hand makes no difference.
Section 3 opens the door for introducing all sorts of 'supporting' evidence regarding the reputation of the club or the girl charged i.e. ex-boyfriends, bible thumping neighborhood groups etc. - effectively allowing guilt by association charges to be made and stick
Section 6 must have been written by a DA, because it guarantees an extra $500 in civil penalty (fine money) even if the DA agrees to plea bargain down to a lesser charge !
Worst of all is that this statute contains a Three Strikes provision resulting in a felony charge upon the third conviction. There might be some constitutional grounds for appeal where this is concerned (if anybody wants to pony up $50,000 + first to try and appeal the Three Strikes provision in Florida state supreme court or Federal court)
Derek
08-03-2005, 10:49 AM
This pisses me off - I read the reports at that website - the girls were simply offering lap dances, a part of their job at the club. What a trumped up fiasco. Don't these cops have some terrorists to chase?
VenusGoddess
08-03-2005, 01:26 PM
This pisses me off - I read the reports at that website - the girls were simply offering lap dances, a part of their job at the club. What a trumped up fiasco.
Well, if they have a 6' ordinance in effect, and all of the girls are doing high milage/grinding...then they would be breaking the law, wouldn't they be? I mean, if the speed limit in Florida is 25 MPH (for all of those slow older folks ;) ) and you were stopped at doing 55 MPH, would you be really be questioning the officer on the validity of giving you a speeding ticket because you don't agree with the rules/laws/ordinances which you have violated?
I don't necessarily agree with having a 3-6' ordinace in effect. I think it is a bunch of bull...however, it's a lesson to dancers to KNOW THE RULES of the state/county in which you dance and not to depend upon the club/managers to tell them. And, keeping that in mind...ignorance of the law is no excuse...so if they choose not to learn the rules/laws of their state/county, then they are subjecting themselves to jail time/fines. It's really that simple.
Don't these cops have some terrorists to chase?
Sure they do...but why go chasing terrorists (who tend to be more difficult to catch) than hitting the local SC where they can have lots of fun and then skip out of paying by arresting the dancers? ;)
Melonie
08-03-2005, 02:39 PM
Now that this issue appears to be settled, it's time to prepare for Phase 2 ... the 'better' dancers from Pasco county trying to move into clubs in adjacent counties where the enforcement efforts aren't as energetic. This will 'overload' the clubs in surrounding counties if the adjacent county clubowners simply decide to hire additional hot dancers (such that both the relocated Pasco county dancers and the girls already working in these clubs will see their incomes suffer). If instead the clubowners in adjacent counties decide to 'hold the line' on number of dancers allowed to work per shift, then some existing dancers working in these clubs will probably wind up out of a job if they can't 'measure up' to the new competition.
The other aspect of Phase 2 will of course be that dancers all over Florida will still be expected to provide levels of contact during every lap dance that customers have come to expect in order to be able to still sell them lap dances, but with the distinct possibility that the dancer might now be busted for doing so at any time thanks to the change in Florida state law.
Tigerlilly
08-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Don't these cops have some terrorists to chase?
Bush already was givin the election and he and his friends are up to their neck in Iraqi oil and contracting profits, so why would they bother chasing any real or imaginary terrorist anymore ? I mean they got what they were after so seriously what's the point ;)
Here's the codes for the entire country. Just click the state and then the county. You can do a seach within the code once you've selected where you want to look.
To see the change made and the reasoning, go to and "jump to" bill 730 in the 2005 session.
:thanx: very much for the help !
In short, the club's lawyer is just that - the CLUB'S LAWYER. He is there to protect their interests, not the dancers'. Expensive as it is, I would recommend obtaining one's own legal services and not rely on the club.
I couldn't agree more. I was once arrested with a dozen or so other dancers for exposure in a club which I was told in no uncertian terms that no contact topless dancing was LEGAL
( there were several clubs in that city, all operating within the same rule structure for over 10 years)
The club paid for our lawyer. The lawyer told us we would all have our charges dropped and not to worry that it was all a mistake and it was safe to go back to work. We trusted him and did go back to work and a few weeks later we were all arrested again !
To make a long story short, we were all found guilty and the club paid all our court costs and fines.
amylynnej
08-03-2005, 04:11 PM
Here is my take on it. The sooner we can get rid of the extras girls and the gangstas, wannabe pimps and the girls that work for them, the better. Most of these girls didnt even look like they were top tier girls. It looks trailer trash day.
I know Im going to get flamed but if they did what they were accused of, well the sooner they go down the better for us. Be professional not a hobag!
BigGreenMnM
08-03-2005, 04:48 PM
To make a long story short, we were all found guilty and the club paid all our court costs and fines.
And this went on your personal criminal record for the rest of your life??
BigGreenMnM
08-03-2005, 04:53 PM
I know Im going to get flamed but if they did what they were accused of, well the sooner they go down the better for us. Be professional not a hobag!
well,my concern is for the 18 year old girl who walks in the door and is handed a bullshit list of rules to follow.
The owners/managers tell them whats ok by law.
Then they see a staff full of entertainers doing it.
What are they supposed to think??
I think the clubs should take a hit for this also,not just the girls who get caught.
amylynnej
08-03-2005, 05:23 PM
Both should. But the girls ultimately do it to themselves. They are the ones who could stop. Ironic that its always the loaw class clubs where these things happen. Other than maybe what happened in Atlanta but they got busted because of some celebrities.
Its time to class the clubs up and drive the bad girls and bad clubs into the ground.
laplover69
08-03-2005, 05:37 PM
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What is strange about the Florida Law it gives Police Officers the authority to cite what they deem "lewd acts or behavior" NOT the customers or dancers. Prior to this new law, attorney Luke Lirot convinced a judge that Police Officers shouldn't be considered as a member of the "offended party", and this was the law for years. Currently, I don't see how the charges will stick as what is deemed "lewd" to one Police Officer might be a "turn on" to another. I can't comprehend how this law can be universally enforced as it is very vague (which is a good thing for a defense attorney). Kind of reminds me of "The People vs. Larry Flynt" all over again only were dealing with "lewdness" instead of "obscenity"... Bottom line another waste of taxpayers money initiated by the religious zealouts. I would think the courts would rule this law too broad and thus unconstitutional as long as the judge is not a recent Bush appointee or Antonin Scalia clone.
doc-catfish
08-03-2005, 05:52 PM
Ironic that its always the loaw class clubs where these things happen.
No not always. I'm sure girls who have worked in high class clubs in Houston or Las Vegas have seen things that could put the goings on in some "joints" to shame.
If anything, what seems to be a big determinate in whether extras occur inside a club or not is the existence of private rooms/booths. Clubs where dances are done only in public view tend to be tamer to some degree.
amylynnej
08-03-2005, 05:56 PM
The thing is extra girls hurt the rest of us. And I find it ironic that its always the average girls who do the extras. Most of these girls look like they just graduated from fast food or the local grovery stockgirl class. They certainly dont look like winners.
These clubs are in very low class areas. Most clubs like that have these same problems.
Theyll argue that they have to do extras because there was no money in it. Well look inward, if youre not making money, maybe its you.
BigGreenMnM
08-03-2005, 06:43 PM
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What is strange about the Florida Law it gives Police Officers the authority to cite what they deem "lewd acts or behavior" NOT the customers or dancers.
Roflmao!!!!!!
So your saying we should leave it up to the custies and dancers???
Speculation on what will ultimately go on record or not for these dancers is meaningless.
The problem for OUR industry is the constant efforts by politicians and moral groups to cripple the adult entertainment industry, so that dancers will quit due to fear of arrest and a huge drop in income. Doc Catfish sized this up correctly.
As he said, full contact lap dances not involving blow jobs, hand jobs or intercourse should NOT be treated as a prostitution offense. Full contact lap dances are what men WANT when visiting strip clubs. It is what they will pay for. Some men want more, but if EVERY state in this country would allow lap dances to be par for the course, clubs in regions not as affected by law enforcement busts, would not have more dancers than customers.
As Melonie said, no politician wants to risk conservative votes openly admitting that strip clubs should be left alone. If the MAJORITY of people in this country, who have open minded liberal views as MOST of SW members have, were reliable voters, politicians wouldn't be wooing consevative votes so much. In other words the prudes of society wouldn't have much influence on politicians.
The Religious Right has been working it's way into control of the Republican party for over 25 years, so that they could use political muscle to make their agenda for this country law.
All of us have seen it and NO ONE played hardball with them. Now the Democrats just want whatever votes they can get no matter if they compromise most of us who have liberal views on life or not.
Florida and Texas have two things in common. Both have a lot of strip clubs, and both have Bush influences.
Now Florida also joins Texas as far as random strip club busts go. Dancers working in both states have their source of income criminalized. Lap dances must go on as usual in order for dancers to make money, and customers to patronize the clubs. WHEN cops are given the direction to make busts, some girls are going down.
The position you take Big Green is troubling to me. You support the very conservastism that has devastated our industry, yet you are employed in a strip club, have undoubtedly in your years enjoyed as much contact in lap dances you have purchased as you could get for your money, and I am sure have "hooked up" with more than your share of willing dancers after hours.
In other words, you have benefitted from the fruits of this business, but you support the conservative ideaology mentally, and with your votes, that is tearing our business apart.
You are the type of customer/employee who enjoys the business, but doesn't want your daughter to be a dancer, or your son to patronize clubs, and know that you do. You are not comfortable with casual sex being more mainstream in society, and for our business to operate as it should, and to operate fairly, sex must be more mainstream and not kept in the closet.
I travel far away from my home to work where there are not more dancers than customers, and where the vice isn't banging on the clubs doors. Our industry shouldn't have to be in such bad shape, but it is.
We are in the "taking a step backwards before we take a step forward" phase in this country.
Miss America has lost it's appeal. Why would the go go bar of 30 years ago attract customers in the 21st Century? Music has changed. R&B songs of the past talked in riddles around wanting sex. Nowadays the lyrics come right out and say "Give me that Pussy".
Guys want more arousal from the money they spend on dances. To keep guys coming back for the arousal and not the "real deal" the clubs must be fun and a party atmosphere, plus be customer oriented and plush in order to attract a wide age range of customer.
We can't go back 40 years in time. Eventually the uninformed citizens who are voting for the conservative candidates who are trying to make this happen for monetary gain will wake up and things will progress in the opposite direction.
Until then our business is eroding at a rapid rate.
No one wants to discuss how to begin the fight against this problem, but until the fight begins, and more mainstream Americans see how foolish policing strip clubs and adult businesses is, then things will keep getting worse and worse.
This is not a "pep talk" Big Green, this is reality.
amylynnej
08-03-2005, 06:56 PM
As a republican I take offense to you saying that republicans are taking away any rights. And I also dance in Texas. I have not seen in my area any attempt by the so-called religious right to criminalize stripping.
What happened in tampa is pure prostitution. And these dont even look like grade a girls. Theyre 5'sd and 6's at best. It seems those are the girls that usually resort to prostitution because they cant make money just by stripping and private dances.
Amy Lynne, you're in Dallas, right? There has been a MAJOR war against strip clubs and adult entertainment there, waged by the Southern Baptists. How long have you danced in Dallas? Girls were going to jail right and left there, and every offense involved at least $4000 in fines, not counting attorney fees. If the cops come in your club, and you dance for them, you will go to jail too. The 3rd dancer violation is a felony and gets child molester status in Dallas. You work in an extremely volatile city.
The girls in suburban Tampa Bay work at smaller clubs and not the glitzy variety of Dallas, Houston, and Austin. Most states don't have clubs like you work in.I wouldn't put them down. Their violations weren't for anything worse than what the average dancer does in your clubs. What happened to them could have easily happened to you, me, or anyone else on this board.:(
Extras come about because customers push for them everyday in every club around. Obviously every dancer is not going to turn down men for extras, when these men are offering them more money than they have been making in the club, since many clubs are slow nowadays. Strict laws are often the cause of extras. People need money, and if it is hard to get through normal means, at some point girls will do whatever they have to to get it. What one dancer would not do regardless of how bad her financial situation is, another one wouldn't object to, right?
The Republican party is dominated by the Christian Conservatives. Texas is their hotbed. Study up on the reasons the clubs moved off of Northwest Hwy and you'll see who is behind this.
Sure there are some Republicans who are less staunch in their religious beliefs than others. But the party's moral stance now is to push for implementation of moral and family values into law.
Major church operations are headquartered in the Dallas Metroplex. There is A LOT of reading on their war against strip clubs there if you'll do some research. Club owners have spent MILLIONS to fight them over the last several years.
BigGreenMnM
08-03-2005, 07:18 PM
The position you take Big Green is troubling to me. You support the very conservastism that has devastated our industry, yet you are employed in a strip club, have undoubtedly in your years enjoyed as much contact in lap dances you have purchased as you could get for your money,
Sorry,although I have taught 100's of girls to give lapdances over the years,I have never had a lapdance,to include working birthdays.
No way could I work with a girl after getting a lapdance,no way could I work in a showbar,with the rest of the girls if I got a lapdance.
and I am sure have "hooked up" with more than your share of willing dancers after hours.
well,we all learn our lessons.
In other words, you have benefitted from the fruits of this business, but you support the conservative ideaology mentally, and with your votes, that is tearing our business apart.
Yes I have,and still do on occasion.
I dont see my views as tearing it apart,I see it as elevating the standards and getting rid of 80% of the industry that should not be here imo,its making the rest of us look bad.
You are the type of customer/employee who enjoys the business, but doesn't want your daughter to be a dancer, or your son to patronize clubs, and know that you do.
Well no,I dont want one of my 5 daughters to be a dancer,I have worked way to hard so they dont have to.
They have been brought up in the bar and restaurant business,so i wouldnt mind if they wanted to open one.
The three oldest have run our family restaurant for years,and they continue to do it now.I expect the twins will be raised in the same way,as owners and workers,not employee's.
Thats not ment as an insult to anyone,its just something I have wanted for them,and they have earned it.
You are not comfortable with casual sex being more mainstream in society, and for our business to operate as it should, and to operate fairly, sex must be more mainstream and not kept in the closet.
I dont think DANCERS should be in those closets.
Im all for casual sex between consenting adults,even if one of them is paying.
I travel far away from my home to work where there are not more dancers than customers, and where the vice isn't banging on the clubs doors. Our industry shouldn't have to be in such bad shape, but it is.
well,thats just it,we both see the same problems,you want to blame the bible thumpers and the law makers,im saying,this industry did it to itself when we allowed the lines to be shadowed.Alot of that stemmed from the lapdance and the vip rooms.
Guys want more arousal from the money they spend on dances.
To bad imo.
Rent a date.
Just whats the next step after the grinding lapdance that you will be ok with??
Whats next??
I do believe that dances done on the floor invite less problems than in closed off VIP, private, or Champagne Rooms. Some club owners HAVE gotten too greedy.
Sure many clubowners are to blame. But if we weren't in such a "closet" business, and clubowners could borrow money to operate just as any mainstream business does, some of the shady characters would be eliminated.
As far as what I would be ok with after grinding, there is nothing else. Unless strip clubs as I said earlier can be more of a fun place to kick it, and not such a serious environment, they will phase themselves out. Guys will just go where they can pay for sex (massage parlors, modeling studios, and escorts).
Tigerlilly
08-03-2005, 09:29 PM
I do believe that dances done on the floor invite less problems than in closed off VIP, private, or Champagne Rooms
OMG , I couldn't agree with you more Tina.
Yeah sure I will do vips if that is the way the club is set up, but really if a dancer/customer aren't misbehaving then there is no need to a totaly private setting.
Maybe a dance room where all the table or lap dances are done separate than the stage and bar area to help eliminate the customers looking for freebies. But there is simply just no need for a complete one on one unless the customer and/or dancer are looking to do more than just dances.
:twocents:
grinew127
08-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Sure many clubowners are to blame. But if we weren't in such a "closet" business, and clubowners could borrow money to operate just as any mainstream business does, some of the shady characters would be eliminated.
Concerning this, see following link,
http://www.thestreet.com/_tscs/markets/matthewgoldstein/10229586.html
.....and the following
http://www.lowellsun.com/front/ci_2899008
........ don't bite the hand the feeds ya?
Archangel
08-04-2005, 06:15 AM
Its time to class the clubs up and drive the bad girls and bad clubs into the ground.
I thought I should point something out. According to law here, YOU are a "bad girl" just for showing your thong to someone. That's illegal exposure. Are you doing things that are illegal? You are if you are a stripper rather than a ballet dancer. Get it now?
Just wait 'til you see it come to Texas. ;)
Interesting tidbit about how times are changing... This Article (http://www.dicksonherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050730/COUNTY0107/507300331/1006/MTCN02) mentions a law passed in 1997 that has been tied up since then. It has just become enforcable after 8 years of stays.
Expect to see alot more losses for the industry before the pendulum swings back the other way.
michele1
08-04-2005, 06:30 AM
Its definitely not effecting how many girls we have. We had 40 girs last night and around 10 were new girls who could care less when I told them about the bust and these girls were not unatractive girls a few of them work at scores east. So the 9s and 10s arent scared away. They saw all the cases get thrown out in tampa so I guess they dont care. Also there is no 6 foot ordinance in pasco and the attorney is a reputable attorney who represented all the girls in tampa who were arrested on the 6 foot violation. Most of the clubs in pasco are dives but bare assets is a decent club with pretty girls. Ihave worked at top clubs across the country and the doll house for 3 years, so its not a bunch of 4s and 5s working there. Also the exposure charges were for spreading thre genitilia not just nude dancing.
Archangel
08-04-2005, 07:26 AM
Good to hear that they're not going overboard. :) Hopefully it stays that way.
laplover69
08-04-2005, 12:45 PM
The only party that consistently values individual liberties over state sanctioned morality is the Libertarian party, unfortunately, there aren't enough of them in major offices to make a difference. The Republican party as a whole is much more UNfriendly to this industry than the democrats, it sure seems hypocritical to me that we are fighting wars and losing lives in the guise of "FREEDOM" while we have are own version of the "MORAL TALIBAN" in our country fighting to destroy the very liberties that are costing many good hearted men and women their LIVES. Guess maybe FASCISM under the Republican administration is synonymous with hypocrites.
This morality issue which the controlling politcal party is pushing is indeed hypocritical Lap Lover 69.
Most of these people in power trying to eradicate our liberal lifestyles are born again Christians, which includes our illustrious president. They abused sex and drugs, all the things they want to criminalize to a higher extent.
Pushing a morality agenda is all about MONEY for the very groups of people who are causing us so much hell.
Once more ordinary people start seeing that they are losing their freedoms, maybe Libertarianism has a chance of gettig the funding it needs to be a major player in politics.
As one of the clubowners I am cool with told me, if we don't put a screeching halt to the damage the party controlling our nation is causing the adult industry, many clubs will be out of business.
We all need to keep a close eye on what is happening in Missouri. The laws passed there which take full effect on the 28th will effectively run all the clubs in the state out of business. The doors may legally be open, but what is now deemed illegal in the clubs will kill all the business. And many of the dancers have gone to Kansas to work, which has cut the money down for their dancers. We only have so many places to run when a crippling law takes effect, before there is nowhere to work!
What has recently happend in Tampa is an offshoot of the Southern Baptist movement against adult entertainment started up there in the mid to late 90's. That same movement moved on to Dallas in early 2000, and is partly to blame for Las Vegas crackdowns. These people had designs to curb adult businesses in Nevada.
I read about all of this about 7 years ago and we're all seeing it come to light, aren't we?
laplover69
08-04-2005, 01:56 PM
So true Tina, I would hope that in Missouri some judge (not a recent Bush appointee or Antonin Scalia clone) will grant a temporary injunction against enforcement until the appeals process is exhausted and constitutional issues are clearly answered. I believe the fascist governor of Missouri is a Republican isn't he?
Yep, he is. The bill was sponsored by a Republican in the Kansas City area.
doc-catfish
08-04-2005, 03:01 PM
We all need to keep a close eye on what is happening in Missouri. The laws passed there which take full effect on the 28th will effectively run all the clubs in the state out of business. The doors may legally be open, but what is now deemed illegal in the clubs will kill all the business. And many of the dancers have gone to Kansas to work, which has cut the money down for their dancers.
I'm afraid that the same stupidity exemplified in Missouri may be in store for Kansas residents very soon. This was in today's Kansas City Star.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/12298431.htm
That article in the Kansas City Star is the very reason non conservatives need to declare war on the conservative element.
These "weirdos" see us as heathen and will stop at no means to hurt our livelihood. Therefore what is stopping Non Conservatives from waging an outright war, which will generate media attention, and open up some ordinary peoples eyes to what is really happening in this country?
"The nation was founded on biblical principles and the proliferation of sexually oriented material has gotten out of hand"
The above quote by Representative Sheri Weber, a Herington Kansas Republican
Our entire government is overflowing with these Sheri Weber types, and they have to be stopped in their tracks.
An all out war against the conservative element better become mainstream, and not just behind closed doors, if we are to block these people from using a biblical value system to run this country.
If enough ORDINARY people were MADE aware of the underlying agenda these consevatives have for being in office, they would have never been voted in to begin with, would they?
laplover69
08-04-2005, 03:58 PM
The Kansas proposal doesn't mention anything about 3 foot rules, barring lap dancing or limiting hours of operation...yet. From what I read it is about imposing a "sin tax" on adult entertainment establsihments which was tried in Vegas but ruled unconstitutional as it was viewed as a violation of the "Equal Protection Clause" of our constitution. Kinda makes you wonder how the Missouri law will pass constitutional muster as the state should have to prove that there are indeed real NOT PERCEIVED "harmful secodnary effects' to these businesses and not just rely on studies done years ago and from far away cities that are not relevant to the cities/state in question (Missouri). There was a huge study done by NEUTRAL urban planners from Ball State University for Fort Wayne, Indiana that concluded there were no more harmful "secondary effects" i.e. crime, prostitution, decreased property values, etc. from stripclubs than that of regular nightclubs. The "secondary effects" theory is the guise lawmakers and religious fanatics use to justify their moral agenda and thus overly restrictive laws. We all know this is solely a MORALITY ISSUE and rarely anything to do with the "secondary effects", so I am surprised that good defense attorneys don't use some of the favorable studies for this industry when there clubs are under seige from the fascist moral taliban. Whatever happened to the Bill of Rights and Seperation of Church & State?
Tigerlilly
08-04-2005, 04:26 PM
well,my concern is for the 18 year old girl who walks in the door and is handed a bullshit list of rules to follow.
Amen to that BigGreen. That is exactly what happened to me. I had to learn the hard way ( got arrested) that I couldn't trust anyone but myself in this biz.
Tigerlilly
08-04-2005, 04:36 PM
Also the exposure charges were for spreading thre genitilia not just nude dancing.
Thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering what the deal was on those charges.
What happened to the arrested dancers as far as the club goes. Did the ones spreading get fired ?
Melonie
08-05-2005, 12:28 AM
Ironically, the theoretical legal position of 'liberals' is just as bad for American strip clubs as the theoretical position of 'conservatives'. Under the recent US Supreme Court ruling commonly referred to as the Texas Sodomy case, which provided the groundwork for the possibility of legalizing gay marriage, a fundamental underlying legal principle of that case was that sex between two 'consenting adults' is not an appropriate area for gov't investigation or regulation, period. The conduct of a dancer and a customer in a private room, in theory, meets exactly the same criteria as the two guys in the Texas Sodomy case.
Thus if a group of clubowners or whomever were to pony up enough money to take any 'strip club extras' case all the way to the supreme court, if the court were to rule in the same manner as the Texas Sodomy case, the probable result would be that the court would find for the dancers. This would establish a corrolary that the supposed constitutional privacy protections of sex between 'consenting adults' which were previously applied to the Texas gays also extends to strip club VIP rooms. This 'liberal' political position is already is in effect in countries like Holland and Germany, and the nature of US clubs would definitely migrate towards that of Dutch and German clubs should such a Supreme Court opinion be issued here in the USA. That nature of clubs is of course that a small percentage of very high class 'hostess clubs' continue to operate employing only the very best looking girls and offering zero contact entertainment, while a large percentage of clubs offer sex on stage and sex with customers.
My point is that the existing US strip club business model of 'middle of the road' clubs, where girls who are '8's can make a decent living without having to offer serious extras to customers, is potentially threatened by any extra attention from either 'liberals' or 'conservatives'. The only difference is that the 'liberal' attention would lead to bankruptcy without legal charges, while the 'conservative' attention would lead to a criminal record. Therefore, from a standpoint of future 'job security', dancers should be hoping that the future position of the US Supreme Court is a bit less liberal than the court that decided the Texas Sodomy case !
laplover69
08-05-2005, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by BigGreenMnM
Roflmao!!!!!!
So your saying we should leave it up to the custies and dancers???
Yes, if you look at "obscenity" as defined by most cities/states you have to be in violation of "community standards" to win a conviction. To establish what community standards are has never really been clearly defined on a consistent basis with any uniform precedent case. AKA "People vs Larry Flynt" comes to mind. Here we are talking about an even more vague interpretation of "lewd acts", and giving the authority to a NON CONSENTING officer of he law to cite what is "lewd" to him or her? What is wrong with simply turning the tv off if you don't like something you are ofended to or looking the other way/leaving when you are an offended viewer of "lewdness"? The problem I see with this law is there are plenty of Police Officers who spend time in stripclubs in their off time and enjoy the very acts some of their fellow officers cite for "lewd behavior" while on the clock. It simply is in the eye of the beholders and subject to wide interpretation, therefore it makes sense to just leave it up to the consenting parties who are harming nobody and not some MORAL TALIBAN FASCIST STATE APPOINTED OFFICER to determine what is "lewd" or immoral for the rest of us. By the way before this law changed recently in Florida, Police Officers couldn't be considered as members of the "offended party" and had no authority to cite "lewdness".
Melonie
08-05-2005, 09:13 PM
Laplover, you're trying to apply a Blue State principle to a Red State ! You're talking 'Community Standards' in bible-thumping country ! Pushing this issue would wind up with Pasco County Florida banning nude and topless dancing altogether !
laplover69
08-06-2005, 01:52 AM
I'm not so sure about that. Attorney Luke Lirot successfully argued many of the above points to a judge before this law was enacted, and if were lucky enough to get a fair-open minded judge again, there is a good chance the law will revert back to old way...It might take a while though.
amylynnej
08-06-2005, 09:27 AM
The ironic thing is this doesnt happen at the upscale or true gentlemans clubs. Its always at the rinky dinky, nasty dive by tyhe airports or industrial areas or near military bases.
I dont think we need less enforcement. We need more, first by the girls who are clean, then by management and as a last resort the police and law enforcement people.
The industry is strong when we work together to class up the clubs.
Tigerlilly
08-06-2005, 10:02 AM
It does happen at the upscale clubs too. It happens less sure, but no club is safe. A bust can happen over soooo many things.
There are always risks in this biz even for those of us who work mostly in air dance clubs.
Knowledge is power though, so knowing the laws ( and following them) can gretaly reduce those risk.
laplover69
08-06-2005, 10:05 AM
Well I see your point AmyLynne, however most of the clubs where I have received extras are the upscale classier clubs as I usually don't patronize the dives. What is acceptable practice and know to LE in what part of the country i.e. (San Francisco open prostitution) doesn't equate to acceptable practice in another area (Missouri) where JUST lap dancing is now banned. As long as the acts/lap dances are "CONSENSUAL" with no harm being done with except MAYBE to the parties partaking, then I certainly don't believe we need more enforcement at TAXPAYERS EXPENSE. Is it really governments role to protect ourselves from ourselves? I think not! The problems arise when one dancer is doing "extras" and the others have to compete to earn a living, if this happens just go to another club. In the outskirts of Vegas where prostitution is legal, escorts/dancers are tested for STD'S and you never hear anything about the perceived terrible "secondary effects" of open prostitution...Just strictly MORAL arguments from people who subscribe to a different UNIQUE ideology than the people who partake in these activities.
amylynnej
08-06-2005, 10:10 AM
Im not complaining. Ive always made more than the extras girls. Theyre usuallythe ones likely to have other issues- drugs, alcoholo, abusive or controlling relationships. I just think we as a whole need to do more to expose the extras girls and get them out of the business or back on the street where they belong.
I look at the pics of the girls who were busted. I doubt any of them would make money in the clubs Ive worked at. Its usually the 5's and 6's who do the extras. The girls who are slightly cute but not hot.
Its time to go upscale. Clubs that have invested millions into the decor, into restaurants, humidors etc have fewer problems than the rinky dinky, guy who owned a bar and needed to make more money so he made a stripclub out of his little tavern type.
And I believe you can still have morals and be a stripper, hell you can still do lapdances. Im a republican and I am a strong christian. So yes you can be moral and still do this.
evan_essence
08-06-2005, 12:23 PM
Laplover, you're trying to apply a Blue State principle to a Red State ! You're talking 'Community Standards' in bible-thumping country ! Pushing this issue would wind up with Pasco County Florida banning nude and topless dancing altogether !Assuming you're correct, that would still be better than having the offended party be the cops. It's possible you could point to other sexually oriented things that are acceptable or tolerated in the community as evidence that nude or topless dancing is comparable and therefore within community standards. If the cops are the yardstick, you got zippo on your side.
-Ev