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miabella
08-22-2006, 01:31 AM
you didn't offend, it's just a conflict that doesn't have any easy or immediate solutions. i mean, having worked with so many extras girls, i know they look at the extras part of things the way non-extras girls look at the stripping part of things (flexibility, money, chance to save up cash if need be). and some of them are amazing stage performers and private dancers.

otoh, even in houston i know plenty of waitstaff and bartenders and cocktail waitresses (not stripclub ones) making 100-200 a shift most nights of the week. and 'full-time' in the restaurant industry is 20-30 hours a week.

i try to consider every kind of stripper and her motivations. not every clean dancer saves her money or is doing it to pay for school, and not every extras dancer is drug-addled. but everyone's emotions get really worked up (justifiably) when the whole picture is considered.

i don't know, it's probably all just a reflection of the world splitting even more obviously into super-rich and the masses of poor.

PookaShell
08-22-2006, 02:01 PM
Good observation Mia. The whole thing sucks for everyone. We should all go back to being cavemen.

TROU8LE~
08-23-2006, 08:44 AM
I know it isn't the only choice out there mia, but it is sad to hand over the entire industry without some kind of fight. The hours and money are great and can be really helpful to people in college, single moms, etc and sure there are plenty of other ways but it is sad to see every club turned into a brothel one by one and the girls who really benefitted from the flexibility don't get to have it as an option. It just sucks is all.

I totally agree with all of your posts here, PookaShell! Our ecconomy suucks ass right now, and its driving me crazy! :P

Siber
08-23-2006, 10:05 AM
Paris, way back there, wanted a comment from Vegas, so here goes.

I haven never been in a SC, but I do frequent, and I mean frequent casinos. Casinos, like SCs, have seen a boom in a sister industry. Card players have seen a sister thing boom: Internet gaming.

Went to a Connecticut casino for the first time in a while and saw some casual card players. These dudes were young, all had obviously seen poker on ESPN, many had obviously gambled on the internet, and all, and I mean all, did not know the first thing about how to really play cards. They were overdone, terrible, cardplayers. They overbet, overdid, overeverythinged. Big, big big. Big stacks of chips, big drinks, wanted to be in the casino equivilent of the VIP right away, wanted to be Phil Ivey right away, and thought they deserved it. Even tried stupid cheats! Saw three (three!) dumb dumb chip pushes, the dumbest of all cheats in two days. Who do these idiots think they are? Answer? The guys on TV.

TV and the internet made the casino something they already knew when they were 23. They lost their sensitivity.

Y'all have the same problem. DVDs and internet porn. The idiots that I now have to suffer with can point, click and gamble. Your custys can point, click and see boobs. They lose their sensitivity to it. For me, seeing a moving boob was still kinda new when I was "that age." Now? They need more and more to keep it up, keep the rush, and, as the stuff in their study, at their fingertips gets worse, so must y'all.

If they can be card sharks and pornstars at home, how macho must they be when they go out? Yeeks.

I mean, hell, doesn't everyone want to be like the guys on TV? Or, these days, like the guys on the internet?

Life was better when there was some mystery to blackjack and what was under a woman's shirt. Now there isn't. That's all.

Siber

PookaShell
08-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Thanks Trou8le.....!!! I appreciate it.

KennedyWinters
08-23-2006, 10:15 AM
and tons of college girls seem to do all right without stripping their way through school.

Tons of college girls also have help in the form of financial aid from their parents or the government. I have neither. I noticed alot of girls are also willing to SHARE A ROOM for the first couple of years or after. Also- if you're coming straight out of high school it's not as likely you've racked up any debt. Coming to school for my third time now, going as many hours as I do- there really is not another high paying flexible job that could makes ends meet and pay down my huge bills. Which is okay...because I like it.

PookaShell
08-23-2006, 10:24 AM
Very true Kennedy. I don't have huge debts because I am coming straight from high school, but I don't have any help paying for anything and with alot of hours it is really hard to get any other job that can offer what dancing can. Working 35 hours at a restaurant for 150 bucks a week? Its okay for the girls who just need extra money for little things but not for bills.

miabella
08-23-2006, 10:40 AM
i know a lot of people making way more than 150 bucks a week working in food service. most of them work 20-30 hours a week. that's another myth that needs to be squashed.

i guess i just don't feel that stripping is necessarily this super-ideal choice it is often made out to be. but then, i wasn't making 3k in 4 shifts every week either. but then i never hear of girls making that kind of money at it complaining about extras women cutting into their money.

consumer culture is insidious. for way too many people, earning any amount of cash in hand each night is an excuse to spend more.

meh, i've always been ambivalent about the joys of stripping because i'm not society's or stripperville's standard of hot and so it was always a struggle to earn well or at all. i suspect burlesque will be much the same once i am doing that, although maybe the audiences will surprise me.

PookaShell
08-23-2006, 10:47 AM
Well maybe I just sucked at it or people in south texas don't know the rules of tipping because I worked at a nice italian food restaurant for a year and a half and that myth was never squashed in my pocket book once I tipped everyone out, Mia.

threlayer
08-23-2006, 11:46 AM
The adage "water seeks its own level' literally means that water, where it can, will flow to even out changes in level. This applies here....

To me dancers should seek to work in clubs where the level of 'nastiness', as some call it here, it what they personally can handle. There will always be dancers who will do many, if not all, the extras. No one will really be able to stop that. If not in the club, available for takeout. It is sort of inevitable. So you should take that into account when you work at a club, of whatever gradation of 'nastiness' as you choose to call it from your perspective. If more dancers made that choice well, things would be easier for those who choose not to allow such liberties.

As a result there would, ideally, be clubs of different degrees of nastiness - well, not clubs alone, but managers and dancers in the clubs working at similar levels. Well, anyhow whatever is tolerated by law enforcement anyway.

There are advantages to dancers who are uncomfortable there with inquiries and (undeserved) reputations, as well as customers who will soon find out where to go for what they are looking for. (I suppose there will always be some customers who are looking to 'reform' a particular dancer they are lusting over at a non-nasty club, hoping they can get what is better available elsewhere. For those individuals, likely they will not try that too many times, assuming they are unsucessful.)

This will not help, nor hurt, the public, and LE (lack of) regard for the industry. Only time passing and loss of more and more puritannical generations will do that.

That would be ideal, but many dancers cannot or will not move on, especially to another city or state. Those are the ones who need to tolerate what they cannot or will not change. And some of those will continue posting their rants on SW. They should still make it a goal to work in a club or elsewhere where they are more suited ethics-wise.

No matter what many guys will continue experimenting and many dancers will continue giving it out fot cash. So, seem to me that it is best to put more effort in finding your level of satisfaction and less effort at ranting about what you can not or will not change.

PookaShell
08-23-2006, 02:13 PM
That was a good post, Threlayer, and I agree with your point, however, there are alot of things that limit a dancers freedom to move around like that. I cant just stop going to college and being as the only clubs within hours of me are in Houston theres not alot of low contact options. I get what you are saying though.

skyrabluesky
08-23-2006, 03:16 PM
where are you working?

I think if I worked in a place like Houston, Tampa, San Fransisco....places known for extras, I wouldn't consider leaving the business altogether, just moving.


Emily, I live in Houston, and I am actually considering moving....Where do you think is a better location for our industry? thanks ;D

SassyMom
08-23-2006, 06:38 PM
I've been on both sides of the fence - customer and dancer. As a dancer, the guys that want extras are gross - that's why I quit.....NO, I will not f*ck you for $! That's not a dancer's job. But - the trend is out there. People have less money. Why should they give it to girls who look pretty and dance, but won't touch at all???? Ya'll would have hated me as a dancer, because I didn't mind the custies touching my ass or tits, just SHUT UP with your nasty propositions.

OTOH - as a custie, I've gotten some really hot dancers who put their tits in my mouth, among other fun things... I definitely appreciate the attention and will come back with another $20 or two or three.....of course, I'm a girl....and most of the dancers seem to want to take me home.....so maybe that makes a difference.

lilac666
07-19-2008, 06:38 PM
i don't know, it's probably all just a reflection of the world splitting even more obviously into super-rich and the masses of poor.

Yeah that is a BIG factor. I think the weaking of the middle class really is at the root of all of this. I think that demographic really carried the strip club industry in the '90s. The more cutthroat the world is and as long as the gap between the rich and the poor gets wider you will see that reflected in just about every industry.

miabella
07-19-2008, 09:58 PM
long time no see-- at least, i can't say i've seen you posting recently.

robinbanks
07-19-2008, 10:41 PM
So i was recently in a club out of town and a new girl who obviously regaurded me as new to the buisness? asked me if there were any other clubs in the area. I told her that yes there are two other clubs in the area, but the one we were in was the nicest by far. The other clubs expected girls to grind and custies expect extras where the one we were in forbid such things. She says to me "oh well Id probably do better in one of the other ones then because i just dont know how to make money here. Im from Vegas and my first boyfriend taught me how to trick fuck. You know so my pussy doesnt get worn out." All I could say was Oh. and walked out. WTF!

lilac666
07-19-2008, 10:59 PM
long time no see-- at least, i can't say i've seen you posting recently.

Hi miabella! I don't post as much but I still vist and read the interesting posts-expecially yours!:)

babyphat
07-20-2008, 04:23 AM
Yeah...I know the feeling. Its frustrating...I have no problem with hos, but if youre going to be one dont do it in a place thats supposed to be for strippers, it makes it worse for the girls that are only strippers and gives us a bad name

Melonie
07-20-2008, 05:59 AM
I have no problem with hos, but if youre going to be one dont do it in a place thats supposed to be for strippers, it makes it worse for the girls that are only strippers and gives us a bad name


I think the weaking of the middle class really is at the root of all of this. I think that demographic really carried the strip club industry in the '90s.


Y'all have the same problem. DVDs and internet porn. The idiots that I now have to suffer with can point, click and gamble. Your custys can point, click and see boobs. They lose their sensitivity to it. For me, seeing a moving boob was still kinda new when I was "that age." Now? They need more and more to keep it up, keep the rush, and, as the stuff in their study, at their fingertips gets worse, so must y'all.


Actually, IMHO at least, there were two major agents of change in the exotic dancing industry over the past 10-15 years that led to the situation that increasingly exists today.

#1 as pointed out by Siber, is the fact that the internet websites and cable porn made it possible for guys to 'see' as much female flesh as they want to ... at a very affordable price, and without having to take any 'risks'. This was opposed to the pre-internet pre cable age situation of XXX theaters and XXX video tape rentals, where an element of 'risk' existed (if no greater than being seen at the box office of a XXX theater or in the Adult section of the local video rental store). Now, besides just 'looking' webcams even makes some limited interaction possible. Thus guys to choose to spend far more money and take some 'risks' ( up to and including being swept up in a club bust) by going to strip clubs today expect to do more than just 'look' and interact verbally in exchange for that extra money and risk.

#2 - a court ruling in the late 90's resulted in the disallowance of business expense tax deductions for strip club entertainment of clients by salesmen / brokers / businessmen of all types. Besides vastly reducing total dollars spent in strip clubs, this ruling also greatly reduced the number of strip club customers whose real reason for going to the strip club wasn't directly related to wanting 'attention' from the dancers. Put another way, whereas 10 years ago two guys might go to a strip club together and drop several hundred bucks while actually discussing a business deal of some sort, today two guys will go to the strip club separately with both seeking 'attention' from the dancers as their main / only reason for being there. And obviously the customer expectations in regard to the type and degree of 'attention' continues to rise along with level of 'attention' some dancers are willing to provide.

I would also make the counterpoint that the attempted 'middle class' versus 'rich' argument simply doesn't fit the facts. While 'rich' club customers may be more 'classy' in the main club, once in a private area their expectations are no different ... and in fact may be more 'extreme' since they are in a position to spend MAJOR bucks in order to get the 'attention' they came to the club to find !

IMHO the days of exotic dancing being 'show business' ended with the dotcom bust and the court ruling regarding strip club business expense tax deductions ... around 1999. The financial shock of the 9/11 attacks, in combination with the evolution of XXX websites/webcams and pay cable porn, accelerated the transition of exotic dancing from 'show business' to 'sex business'. As the average 'tenure' for a typical exotic dancer is less than 5 years, in point of fact most girls who are now working as exotic dancers entered the business at a point where physical contact and 'extras' were an accepted (but probably low profile) business model. And in the last couple of years, as the physical contact and 'extras' issue has taken on a higher and higher profile due to the widespread availability of strip club review websites / customer comments about the 'menu' available from specific dancers etc., in combination with a worsening economy increasing strip club customers' expected 'bang for their buck', it has become virtually impossible for a non-contact dancer to earn a justifiable amount of money in the vast majority of clubs / cities.

This is the reason I retired from live club appearances 2-3 years ago. This was based on an assessment that the contact and 'extras' situation will continue to get worse and worse. This was reinforced by repeated observations in different cities that the passage of anti-strip club laws which were intended to 'clean up' strip club contact and 'extras' have in fact assured that clubs and dancers providing high contact and 'extras' (in violation of the law) will probably be the only clubs and girls able to financially survive the hard economic times that are increasingly upon us. This is simply because the customer 'draw' and thus earnings potential of clubs and dancers that adhere to the anti-strip club laws / low contact business model will continue to decline to the point where neither can afford pay their rent or utility bills or taxes !

~

head turner
07-20-2008, 06:19 AM
So i was recently in a club out of town and a new girl who obviously regaurded me as new to the buisness? asked me if there were any other clubs in the area. I told her that yes there are two other clubs in the area, but the one we were in was the nicest by far. The other clubs expected girls to grind and custies expect extras where the one we were in forbid such things. She says to me "oh well Id probably do better in one of the other ones then because i just dont know how to make money here. Im from Vegas and my first boyfriend taught me how to trick fuck. You know so my pussy doesnt get worn out." All I could say was Oh. and walked out. WTF!


trick what??:O

MysteriousMisty
07-20-2008, 06:34 AM
There are two types of nasty IMO. The nasty girls that will do the extras and the nasty bitches that are tacky enough to manipulate their way into luring a potential custy away when they saw you with him first.

Nasty girls are all over the place. Even here in Vegas. There are clubs that claim to be clean but they're really not. Just over the weekend a co-worker got so mad at a nasty girl that she almost left early. The girl approached a customer, flashed her na-na and said "Let's go to VIP." This is a topless club and she had no business flashing her Brittney. At my old club, a friend of mine was getting screwed over all the time because of nasty girls. She said it happened twice. Just as she was about to go into VIP with a guy, some nasty ---- would whisper in the guy's ear and then the custy would turn to my friend and say "I'm taking her to VIP instead." The last time this happened, the nasty bitch said she'd fuck the guy.'

As difficult as the business is (especially right now), I believe there are still guys out there that prefer clean girls over the nasty ones. Not all guys like the nasty girls because they don't know where they've been. And no one wants a disease.