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erotictonic
08-18-2005, 10:53 AM
Before I answer, I would just like to say that I don't consider any sort of dental work extreme cosmetic surgery. I consider dental work a necessary part of life. Everyone wants healthy teeth. Breast augmentations are UNhealthy.

My point is that alot of people who go for cosmetic surgery have something broken inside they are trying to fix - self esteem, and to fill an emptiness that is there. A new nose or a breast augmentation is not going to fix that. They are going to get surgery, not feel a bit better inside, then seven years later have to go back for more. And if they don't go back, they may end up looking like a freak, which they may end up looking like anyway with a bad doctor or a fouled surgery. It may give them a temporary feeling of goodness kinda like winning at gambling. Long term, doesn't do a thing. You like that? That's fine with me. But I am not going to promote it because I don't think it's the answer to a societal problem which happens to be low self esteem. That's my point. The human body, ugly or pretty, is fine the way it is. It's the insides that are broken. I can understand surgery in extreme cases. Other than that, no way.

I know beautiful women who are suicidal, and I know ugly women that have successful, fulfilling lives and are happy. What's the difference? The insides. And no cosmetic surgery is going to change that.

My point in my last post was that it doesn't matter what they want.... it isn't going to solve the problem. If you are unhappy, you've got some internal work to do. Just like people think money will solve it.... it doesn't. So I think it's foolish to sacrifice your health for a quick fix. You want to do it? Be my guest.

Jenny
08-18-2005, 11:41 AM
Who said anything is broken on the inside? You've made this huge leap of logic or you're judging.

It's no bigger than yours. Your just pre-convinced that your leap is right. Think about it - you are willing to cut yourself open, destroy your breast tissue, make yourself an inappropriate candidate for breast feeding, ruin sexual response in your breast risk permanent disfigurement and scarring to go up a cup size so that boys might like you. Does that sound like the behaviour of a rational person? Or does it sound like someone who is dealing with self-esteem issues? Do you think a mentally healthy woman would fixate to the degree that you are describing on such minor issues in her appearance (because you are already disavowing what you call "extreme" surgery, so we are already dealing exclusively with minor problems) like moles? Like enough to cause her the intense emotional pain you are hoping that we will empathize with? Because that doesn't sound normal to me. It sounds like she is struggling with some internal issue - also note, very few people are dealing with one single imperfection. There will be a whole myriad of things that she can fixate on after she gets her mole removed.

Jenny
08-18-2005, 11:56 AM
I know several women that are just plain out unattractive. They are good people, but its clearly weighed heavily on them their whole life. They have for all practical purposes been ignored by men because of their looks. I completely don't see the relation to the quote you used there. In any case, I find this a little hard to believe because I have seen a lot of very unattractive people fall in love and get married and have babies, and their affection and story is not one bit less important or less romantic to themselves because they are not beautiful


Given an opportunity to live their life again, and look more attractive and have men give them attention 'just because' of how they looked, I know each would gladly put up with some temporary surgery if they could have that level of attention from others. I don't know if you can really grasp how painful it is for them to be ignored by men year after year after year because they aren't sexually attractive.
You and I have very different dating priorities. And "I'm going to cut myself open so that boys like me" is the worst rationalization I have ever heard.


These are not women that don't strip because they don't want to be touched for money. These are women that nobody wants to touch, let alone pay to touch.
Again - I don't know. I've seen some pretty ugly strippers. At the last club I worked at in Toronto my roommate came in to visit and made me laugh by seriously starting when one of the dancers walked by. She's like "Hey, there you a... Ahhh!"


You can blaim that on society if it makes you feel better, but I believe the truth is they would be unattractive in any culture, and society because they got screwed in the genetic lottery.
You're obsessed with blame. And I can't help but notice that you are quoting me, but you're not really responding to what I'm saying at all. Is this because you think that I am not familiar with these rationalization? That I have never heard them before? Like if you are trying to express that they are to some degree valid, surely you can demonstrate it in a way that is not simply vehemently repeating them. "No really! Ugly people are unhappy! Because they are ugly! And a very minor procedure will fix it! Somehow. Even though if it were a minor issue, perhaps they weren't really THAT ugly in the first place."


As I said, they are good people, but there is no point in lying and saying its all just social. They are physically unattractive on a genetic/biological level.
That is a ridiculous contention. Because A) it is impossible to know. Biologically attractive? What does that even mean? Like she is unattractive on the genetic level? This is just nonsense. However - I am not denying that some people are unattractive. I'm saying that becoming obsessed with it and then trying to fix that obsession with a scalpel is problematic - and it becomes more problematic when you examine it as a social issue (as in society wide) rather than simply each individual making a choice - and then even more problematic when you factor in the role of doctors and surgeons in our society and how they are playing that role. Nothing I have read here is even close to what you are arguing against.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 12:14 PM
Before I answer, I would just like to say that I don't consider any sort of dental work extreme cosmetic surgery. I consider dental work a necessary part of life. Everyone wants healthy teeth.

Breast augmentations are UNhealthy.



It's a scale and the point was to say that cosmetic surgery and the risks are not all or nothing type of issues.

Some dental work is of course necessary to maintain the integrity of the teeth, but a lot of orthodonitic work is just cosmetic, the teeth work fine, yet people pay for this cosmetic work and go through a lot of pain. It's not necessary in most cases, but it is aesthetically pleasing. While breast augmentation is on one end of the scale, orthodontics is on the other. But in between those are all kinds of common procedures .

On the orthodontics end of the scale its not particularly unhealth to have your teeth straightened. Its just often not needed. While on the other, the breast augmentation, can be unhealthy and not needed. So I agree there is a difference. But it doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In the middle is something like a rhinoplasty (a nose job). There is no insertion of any foreign body. Its not particulary unhealthy. Its cosmetic in most cases. In some its overlapped with fixing a deviated septum. The same with blepharoplasty (eye lid surgery), no new foreign bodies, just some minor incisions and rearranging of the body which is not so different from orthodontists re-arranging your teeth. In rare cases its also beneficial.

Then there is something like breast reduction, again no foregin bodies, sometimes done for cosmetic reasons, sometimes for practical reasons, sometimes a bit of both. Or liposuction, no foreign bodies, but again, sometimes done for practical reasons, but most often done for cosmetic reasons. The risk of complications is also not simply all equally dangerous. Rhinoplasty and Blepharoplasty risks are relatively minor. On the other hand liposuction risks are quite high.

If you're main gripe with plastic surgery is breast augmentation, then I agree that that particular cosmetic surgery is relatively high risk, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know. Then again I don't have any fetishes for big breasts, but I still trust people to weigh this decision for themselves.




My point is that alot of people who go for cosmetic surgery have something broken inside they are trying to fix - self esteem, and to fill an emptiness that is there. A new nose or a breast augmentation is not going to fix that. They are going to get surgery, not feel a bit better inside, then seven years later have to go back for more. And if they don't go back, they may end up looking like a freak, which they may end up looking like anyway with a bad doctor or a fouled surgery. It may give them a temporary feeling of goodness kinda like winning at gambling. Long term, doesn't do a thing. You like that?



I don't know if thats true. The few people I know that have had done it were and still are quite happy that they did it. I don't know what statistics there that show peoples happiness with surgery over the long run so this may just be guessing. Some of the procedures like rhinoplasty, liposuction, and breast reduction, and to a lesser degree blepharoplasty result in life long improvements with few long term risks as long as the surgery was not botched to begin with. But again perhaps you are thinking mostly of breast augmentations which require the people go back for fixes. I really don't know how many women are long term happy with that.



That's fine with me. But I am not going to promote it because I don't think it's the answer to a societal problem which happens to be low self esteem. That's my point. The human body, ugly or pretty, is fine the way it is. It's the insides that are broken. I can understand surgery in extreme cases. Other than that, no way.


Like I said, its not all or nothing for me. If that works for you thats cool, but lowered self esteem isn't necessarily a big deal in my mind, as long as it's reasonable and in context. I think if someone is walking around with something that is visually unpleasant (e.g., crooked teeth) and it bothers them they should weigh the risks of fixing it vs the risks of not doing so. People enhance their looks in many ways from what clothes they buy to their tattoos and piercings - again its just a big scale of self esteem improvements that people engage in. While medical procedures are riskier than say getting a tattoo or risker then say getting your ears pierced, I don't view it as a human flaw that humans feel driven to improve their looks and attractiveness to the opposite sex. I view it is a normal human condition, the want to improve oneself, and the want to increase ones attractiveness to the opposite sex.

Actually I really think someone who is adimittently insistent that they have no self esteem issues or insistent that people who have them have problems makes me think they over compensating and trying to convince themselves it is so. But I'll give you that some people seem to go to far, they are already gorgeous, and yet get locked into an extreme pattern of surgery or never feel a reasonable amount of self esteem regardless of their situation in life. But I don't believe in simple all or nothing absolutes when it comes to people (or most things). People just arent like that. Even those with high self esteem still have some self esteem issues, which is actually a good thing because without those self-doubts they wouldn't self-improve, they wouldn't be able to relate to the other people in the world. And likewise, most normal people have some self esteem issues, for their whole life, it's normal, and if channeled correctly is actually in my mind a good thing. Its the extremists that worry me, not the normal/average up/down esteem issues that people go through their entire lives.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 12:14 PM
It's no bigger than yours. Your just pre-convinced that your leap is right. Think about it - you are willing to cut yourself open, destroy your breast tissue, make yourself an inappropriate candidate for breast feeding, ruin sexual response in your breast risk permanent disfigurement and scarring to go up a cup size so that boys might like you. Does that sound like the behaviour of a rational person? Or does it sound like someone who is dealing with self-esteem issues? Do you think a mentally healthy woman would fixate to the degree that you are describing on such minor issues in her appearance (because you are already disavowing what you call "extreme" surgery, so we are already dealing exclusively with minor problems) like moles? Like enough to cause her the intense emotional pain you are hoping that we will empathize with? Because that doesn't sound normal to me. It sounds like she is struggling with some internal issue - also note, very few people are dealing with one single imperfection. There will be a whole myriad of things that she can fixate on after she gets her mole removed.

TOTALLY. Been there are done that myself. It's not just that mole.... it's your nose, your hair, your face, your teeth, your elbows, your arms.... etc. It's a never ending quest to fix yourself, when all you need is to fix your self esteem. Somewhere down the line you believed that you were flawed, and now you have to fix that internally.

Jenny
08-18-2005, 12:15 PM
Yes the greater agenda is called your genes.

My genes are the agenda? The reason that mutilating yourself to be pretty is acceptable, but mutilating yourself for artistic/intellectual reasons is nutty? How do my genes factor into that?


In some cases its appropriate, in some cases less so. Its not all or nothing. Of course not. But it is certainly useful to examine why we react with such a normalizing attitude to some sorts of self-mutilation and such horror and distancing to others - it certainly shows that it is not truly about making individuals happy or making individual choices.


But for a woman with very small breasts, it could be a source of a lot of emotional pain for her, and if an implant would alleviate that emotional pain, its an option worth considering. What are we talking about? Her psyche, and years and years of her life vs what? A few thousand bucks, and a few surgical incisions that will very likely heal well. We arent talking about her going to a crack pot. We arent talking about her taking off an arm or a leg. We are talking about a small surgical incision that could possibly result in decades of emotional satisfaction. That seems like a fair trade to me, at least to consider.
This is a big part of what we are contending - why small breasts would constitute such emotional pain as to justify a surgical intervention. Heart surgeons won't say "You don't really need this surgery, but you'll probably be fine, and it might be a hoot." Any other specialist would put of that kind on intervention until it was truly necessary. Except cosmetic surgeons. To whom necessity constitutes "I don't like my ankles...."

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 12:34 PM
It's a scale and the point was to say that cosmetic surgery and the risks are not all or nothing type of issues.

Some dental work is of course necessary to maintain the integrity of the teeth, but a lot of orthodonitic work is just cosmetic, the teeth work fine, yet people pay for this cosmetic work and go through a lot of pain. It's not necessary in most cases, but it is aesthetically pleasing. While breast augmentation is on one end of the scale, orthodontics is on the other. But in between those are all kinds of common procedures .

On the orthodontics end of the scale its not particularly unhealth to have your teeth straightened. Its just often not needed. While on the other, the breast augmentation, can be unhealthy and not needed. So I agree there is a difference. But it doesn't mean we have to throw the baby out with the bath water.

In the middle is something like a rhinoplasty (a nose job). There is no insertion of any foreign body. Its not particulary unhealthy. Its cosmetic in most cases. In some its overlapped with fixing a deviated septum. The same with blepharoplasty (eye lid surgery), no new foreign bodies, just some minor incisions and rearranging of the body which is not so different from orthodontists re-arranging your teeth. In rare cases its also beneficial.

Then there is something like breast reduction, again no foregin bodies, sometimes done for cosmetic reasons, sometimes for practical reasons, sometimes a bit of both. Or liposuction, no foreign bodies, but again, sometimes done for practical reasons, but most often done for cosmetic reasons. The risk of complications is also not simply all equally dangerous. Rhinoplasty and Blepharoplasty risks are relatively minor. On the other hand liposuction risks are quite high.

If you're main gripe with plastic surgery is breast augmentation, then I agree that that particular cosmetic surgery is relatively high risk, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know. Then again I don't have any fetishes for big breasts, but I still trust people to weigh this decision for themselves.




I don't know if thats true. The few people I know that have had done it were and still are quite happy that they did it. I don't know what statistics there that show peoples happiness with surgery over the long run so this may just be guessing. Some of the procedures like rhinoplasty, liposuction, and breast reduction, and to a lesser degree blepharoplasty result in life long improvements with few long term risks as long as the surgery was not botched to begin with. But again perhaps you are thinking mostly of breast augmentations which require the people go back for fixes. I really don't know how many women are long term happy with that.



Like I said, its not all or nothing for me. If that works for you thats cool, but lowered self esteem isn't necessarily a big deal in my mind, as long as it's reasonable and in context. I think if someone is walking around with something that is visually unpleasant (e.g., crooked teeth) and it bothers them they should weigh the risks of fixing it vs the risks of not doing so. People enhance their looks in many ways from what clothes they buy to their tattoos and piercings - again its just a big scale of self esteem improvements that people engage in. While medical procedures are riskier than say getting a tattoo or risker then say getting your ears pierced, I don't view it as a human flaw that humans feel driven to improve their looks and attractiveness to the opposite sex. I view it is a normal human condition, the want to improve oneself, and the want to increase ones attractiveness to the opposite sex.

Actually I really think someone who is adimittently insistent that they have no self esteem issues or insistent that people who have them have problems makes me think they over compensating and trying to convince themselves it is so. But I'll give you that some people seem to go to far, they are already gorgeous, and yet get locked into an extreme pattern of surgery or never feel a reasonable amount of self esteem regardless of their situation in life. But I don't believe in simple all or nothing absolutes when it comes to people (or most things). People just arent like that. Even those with high self esteem still have some self esteem issues, which is actually a good thing because without those self-doubts they wouldn't self-improve, they wouldn't be able to relate to the other people in the world. And likewise, most normal people have some self esteem issues, for their whole life, it's normal, and if channeled correctly is actually in my mind a good thing. Its the extremists that worry me, not the normal/average up/down esteem issues that people go through their entire lives.

Oh no, I definitely have self esteem issues. And I've been around tons and tons of people who do. Self esteem is extremely important. To say that it is not that important is just insane. Does it matter that Angelina Jolie's right breast is at least one cup size bigger than her left? Does it matter that some would say she has ugly feet? What Angelina Jolie has is an intense beauty that comes from within.... she is someone who is deep and who believes in herself (and she's also a recovered borderline ;D). She just exudes intensity and confidence. People feel that, and it means so much more on the attractive scale than breast implants (or any other surgery) EVER could. Self esteem is a huge factor in how successful you are in life, and it will determine how you feel about yourself and whether you feel attractive. The mind is the sexiest feature. I know ugly guys who get all kinds of chicks.... because they exude a certain something, and that comes from being happy with themselves.

From what I can see, you have problems stepping outside your environment. Breast implants today will be seen as just as freakish as wearing corsets in 100 years. To go under the knife to satisfy a societal norm is just silly to me. The media model that is attractive today will be different in the future.

SportsWriter2
08-18-2005, 12:40 PM
Does it matter that Angelina Jolie's right breast is at least one cup size bigger than her left?

Last time I saw her in a flick, her right arm was a flamethrower, so maybe I overlooked the boob details. :O

xdamage
08-18-2005, 01:05 PM
You and I have very different dating priorities. And "I'm going to cut myself open so that boys like me" is the worst rationalization I have ever heard.


The topic wasn't about you. Im quite sure nobody said you should cut yourself open so boys will like you. The topic was about others who make the decision to have surgery for their own reasons. It has nothing to do with you. It doesn't affect you what they choose to do. If you feel like somehow the topic is directed specifically at you, or society is somehow impinging on your ability to choose then well, talk to someone. What other people do with their bodies has nothing to do with you or what you chose to do with yours.




You're obsessed with blame. Is this because you think that I am not familiar with these rationalization? That I have never heard them before?

The word I used was "responsibility", not "blame". Its about taking a stance on humans and their responsibility so that a discussion about human nature doesn't constantly get thrown off track. The problem with the social argument is that it gets abused. It used as a way out, a way of reassigning responsibility (?blaim?) to men, or someone else when its convienent for the argument you want to believe in. It leads to complete and utter confusion when it comes to understanding human behavior.

Here as an example of it in the extreme:

When its convienent, we can argue that 50% of society is and always has been female. That females are equally as intelligent as men. That females are 50% responsible for shaping society. That females share in 50% of the construction of societal beliefs. That females influence other females as equally as men do.

When thats inconvienent, we can argue that females are nitwits, cattle minded, outplayed by men at every turn of society, just dragged along by society against their will, not responsible for their choices because men have shaped society and men have put ideas into their head.

Pick one. When you randomly switch when it confirms a conspiracy theory about men, or allows women to not be responsible for things that dont jive with your notions of society, the only one you end up confusing is yourself. I happen to think women are intelligent, that they are equally responsible for the shaping of society, and also I happen to think women want these procedures, its not just men who are trying to trick them. Maybe that doesn't jive with your conspiracy notions that men are tricking women into wanting these procedures, but that doesn't mean that they don't want them. Its very clear to me why they want these procedures. Why they buy makeup. Why they buy attractive clothes and jewelry. Why some even go so far as to work as models and strippers. No male conspiracy theories are required to explain this behavior. It just basic human nature at play.

Yes, its a societal demand to look better, to compare ourselves with extremes, but its not because women are nitwits or incapable or knowing what they want for themselves. Its because women are participatory in the societal beliefs and influence each other. And as adults, they are responsible for their choices. Women influence each others social beliefs as much if not more so then men. So lets treat them like grown ups, and make them equal participants and equally responsible for the shaping of society and the demand for these products.

Once, or if you get to that point, then all we can say is that yes, society (other people, men and women) influence other men and women to have these procedures. But it still gets down to individuals have to take on responsibility for their choices. The argument that society influences them is fine, but it doesn't change that people make these decisions for themselves, just like you've made a decision to be a stripper for yourself, even though that also feeds into someone elses notions that you've selected to work in a female sex oriented profession because society influenced you. A lot of people pointing a lot of fingers in a lot of directions, except for at themselves.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 01:16 PM
To say that it is not that important is just insane.

Like I said in another reply, I don't think you are capable of grasping non black/white type thinking. I didn't say its not important at all. You'll have to take it on faith that my mind doesn't live in a state of absolutes. I can walk around, and a part of me can have a lot of self esteem, while other parts have some self esteem issues, and its fine, the normal everday ambiguity that non-bpd people live in a state of all the time.



My genes are the agenda? The reason that mutilating yourself to be pretty is acceptable, but mutilating yourself for artistic/intellectual reasons is nutty? How do my genes factor into that?


Hmm? Its not about you personally Jenny. But for those who choose to have the procedure done, and you could talk to them and ask them what motivates them since clearly they are motivated, roughly speaking they perceive the "mutilation" as less important then the increases in sexual attractiveness that the operations gives them. The want to be sexually attractive is in their genes. Maybe you have different genes. Or maybe you really can't understand why it is that think the way they do for other reasons.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 01:32 PM
but lowered self esteem isn't necessarily a big deal in my mind,



Then what does this mean? You said lowered self esteem is no big deal. That's what I was posting about. I said it is very important in attracting the opposite sex. You take the same guy and give him self esteem and a different attitude and he'll get tons more chicks than if he is walking around like a doormat. I've seen it happen. It has so little to do with a big nose or even fat.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 01:42 PM
Like I said in another reply, I don't think you are capable of grasping non black/white type thinking. I didn't say its not important at all. You'll have to take it on faith that my mind doesn't live in a state of absolutes. I can walk around, and a part of me can have a lot of self esteem, while other parts have some self esteem issues, and its fine, the normal everday ambiguity that non-bpd people live in a state of all the time.


You said "it's no big deal". I didn't say you said it wasn't important AT ALL. I said that you said it's not important, which you did. You need to drop the bpd shit. This is a debate. To try to fall back on what you see are my issues is weak. And it seems that you are using that to try and see something that is just not there, which I just proved you just did. I see you as having just as many issues, if not more than I do. I'm in recovery, but you can't see your problems. You think a new nose is going to change someone's life. What changes lives comes from within. Now honestly, I can see why some would consider plastic surgery. If I was as all-or-nothing as you seem to think I am, would I be able to think that? I am actually a good non-linear thinker, and I am studying now to be a programmer. I am far from a simpleton. And I am tired of being accused of that. If I were simple, I would be buying the bullshit that I need breast implants, lipo, etc. BPDs may be childish, but intellectually we are at the same level as everyone else. I am also college-educated.

And yes, in summary, you DID say that people have the surgeries because they wanted to be more attractive to the opposite sex. You tend to have problems with reading comprehension.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 01:50 PM
Then what does this mean? You said lowered self esteem is no big deal. That's what I was posting about. I said it is very important in attracting the opposite sex. You take the same guy and give him self esteem and a different attitude and he'll get tons more chicks than if he is walking around like a doormat. I've seen it happen. It has so little to do with a big nose or even fat.
The best I can tell you is that healthy people have a good strong sense of themselves and their self worth independent of secondary self esteem issues they may be having. And that healthy people can self evaluate well even if that means that at times they see things in themselves that they need to improve. That doesn't mean their self esteem is shot. It means that they have a strong enough sense of their self that they can look at the not so great areas of themselves and not be afraid that they are going to see things in themselves that could use improvement. Thats about the best I can say it in a few words.

As for the type of guy you talked about, thats fine, and yes there are many (often immature) women that are attracted to men with the over-the-top personalities, lets call it the stereotypical rock star fear nothing type, but it doesn't follow that those types of men are actually mentally healthy. Sometimes they are assholes because they lack the ability to self examine. It also doesn't follow that all guys want women who are attracted to these types.

Look at it like this. Take the over-the-top air-brushed super-sexy perfect-confidence model in Playboy. Imagine she is the stereotypical real bitch but because she looks hot and acts hot a part of me finds that attractive. But another part of me, and the more realistic part, and the part that really counts, finds her to be fake and boring. Fake physically. And fake emotionally because I'd just be thinking okay great, I see just this one sided person. Where is the rest of her? Where is the rest of the things normal people feel and think? There is no way someone like that would keep my attention. For anything long term, I'd much rather be with someone who is more complete, more well balanced, yes even someone who can explore their negative self esteem issues and share that.

Maybe that explains it, maybe not, but real strength transcends the secondary up/down esteem issues real people go through.



You need to drop the bpd shit.


You're responding like someone with this problem.


Look your the one that started the thread.

Why you'd even care what others do with their bodies is beyond me, but if its really bothering you enough to bring up the topic and make a stance that its always wrong, then you're just going to have to accept that you're bound to get responses like mine or others who disagree. Clearly so since several girls here do have plastic surgery, and all I'm doing is filling in that there are obviously many other people having surgeries and its clearly made many other people happy.

You can insist that these people are all nuts, or unable to think for themselves if you want, but since other people are having these surgeries, and since the evidence is hey are overall happy, what difference does it make to you why they do it? Why do you care? If its not right for you, don't do it for you, problem solved.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 02:04 PM
The best I can tell you is that healthy people have a good strong sense of themselves and their self worth independent of secondary self esteem issues they may be having. And that healthy people can self evaluate well even if that means that at times they see things in themselves that they need to improve. That doesn't mean their self esteem is shot. It means that they have a strong enough sense of their self that they can look at the not so great areas of themselves and not be afraid that they are going to see things in themselves that could use improvement. Thats about the best I can say it in a few words.

But who's to say it isn't great? Again you are using a model promoted by the media to tell you what looks good. You can't think outside the box. What about BBW magazine? The guys that buy that don't believe in lipo.

As for the type of guy you talked about, thats fine, and yes there are many (often immature) women that are attracted to men with the over-the-top personalities, lets call it the stereotypical rock star fear nothing type, but it doesn't follow that those types of men are actually mentally healthy. Sometimes they are assholes because they lack the ability to self examine. It also doesn't follow that all guys want women who are attracted to these types.

I'm not talking about fake self esteem. I'm talking about a good attitude and high self esteem. It has nothing to do with a "rock star".

Look at it like this. Take the over-the-top air-brushed super-sexy perfect-confidence model in Playboy. Imagine she is the stereotypical real bitch but because she looks hot and acts hot a part of me finds that attractive. But another part of me, and the more realistic part, and the part that really counts, finds her to be fake and boring. Fake physically. And fake emotionally because I'd just be thinking okay great, I see just this one sided person. Where is the rest of her? Where is the rest of the things normal people feel and think? There is no way someone like that would keep my attention. For anything long term, I'd much rather be with someone who is more complete, more well balanced, yes even someone who can explore their negative self esteem issues and share that.

I agree with you. That's my point all along, is that physical fakeness does not make the person. My bf is not that good-looking, but he is everything I ever wanted in every other way. And he is happy and healthy, and he has high self esteem. He is way more attractive to me than any Chippendales dancer or rock star. He doesn't need a new nose to be the guy I want, or the guy he wants to be. That's healthy. Trust me, I've been around a lot of people who have had cosmetic surgery. Most of them I don't want to be around, because they have issues.

Maybe that explains it, maybe not, but real strength transcends the secondary up/down esteem issues real people go through.

Sorry, but you don't need to explain shit to me. I have been around, and I know what healthy people are like.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by xdamage
The best I can tell you is that healthy people have a good strong sense of themselves and their self worth independent of secondary self esteem issues they may be having. And that healthy people can self evaluate well even if that means that at times they see things in themselves that they need to improve. That doesn't mean their self esteem is shot. It means that they have a strong enough sense of their self that they can look at the not so great areas of themselves and not be afraid that they are going to see things in themselves that could use improvement. Thats about the best I can say it in a few words.

But who's to say it isn't great? Again you are using a model promoted by the media to tell you what looks good. You can't think outside the box. What about BBW magazine? The guys that buy that don't believe in lipo.


I said not one word about looks and you are off trying to tell me how I think about looks again in some stereotypical nonesense.

Look as I said, your not capable of understanding how I think. Your going to keep on trying to fit my not so rigid views into this simpleton all or nothing model you have painted in your mind, and my thoughts on the matter just don't fit.






Then what does this mean? You said lowered self esteem is no big deal.


You asked.


Sorry, but you don't need to explain shit to me. I have been around, and I know what healthy people are like.

So I answered. If you knew the answer then don't ask.

polecat
08-18-2005, 02:12 PM
These are not women that don't strip because they don't want to be touched for money. These are women that nobody wants to touch, let alone pay to touch.
This is an important point. You don't see these women stripping, but instead you usually see them at the grocery store or department stores *VERY* happy, pushing a baby cart with a 2nd child tugging at their side. You also can't help seeing the look of utter contentment on their face knowing they are loved, appreciated and accepted for WHO THEY ARE.

Honestly- think of what, by your 'I wouldn't want to touch HER!' measuring stick... where have you seen the most noteworthy examples of this? Pushing baby strollers in public/married, huh? I'll bet this is the case, hmmm?

Are there lonely people? Yes, but honestly, I see them more frequently as those in pursuit of beauty/physical attraction levels than amongst unattractive. It's either that or it's the unattractive still trying to live by this fallacy.

Stripclubs, beauty pageants and the cosmetic surgery industry are basically the "Church of the Broken/Shallow Values" as they subsidize this broken concept... a relentless pursuit of tieing self-worth, value and capability for love/warmth and acceptance almost entirely to the physical realm. It's much, much easier to worship at this altar than it is to fix what's truly broken. What's funny is the denial behind this as those that live here have to put on horse-blinders every day by their personal contact with those that distort this rule in everyday life (at the grocery store, their neighbors, etc.etc.).

I have one male acquaintence that is so absolutely good looking that he's totally lost in misogyny from it. He's gone out with me and other male friends to propagate his "all women are superficial, looks-based ho's" philosophy in profound ways through constant illustrations. He can dress like a total dork, snort-laugh, walk messed-up and swing his arms like a ninny when we go places and still 5-6 women are pawing after him like dogs in heat. Funny thing is, they are all above average to 'hot' in appearance, many of which with numerous augs/surgeries. They're simply living by the same measuring stick they apply to themselves. While he may pride himself on having a little black-book overflowing with 'hot chics' that he can call and have them over inside of 15 minutes for a "sponge-bath, blowjob and dump to the curb".. I'm not seeing him as having won any 'lottery' in my book.

At the same time, he TRULY cares if a woman has stretch marks, celluite, moles or non-symetrical features... and has absolutely no qualms with making this issue relevent (and a primary focus) in every woman he comes in contact with. In fact, it seems to be the main attraction factor- shallow, low self-esteem women rushing to him in knowledge he's going to confirm the church they worship at. They all want to touch him, but they don't want anything to do with a guy that thinks they're beautiful as-is. It's a big, giant, circular disease spreading ritual... played by both sides.



Most of us do care if the opposite sex wants to touch us. We like the opposite sex and we like touching and being touched by them. It's normal to want to be touched. If you really don't care if others touch you then it sounds like you have issues. Others though are very much interested in being touched by the opposite sex. It plays a great role in what drives us in life to improve ourselves.
This is the single most important facet here... and ties it all together.

My friend from the above example.. he really does NOT want to be touched by the opposite sex. The whole shallowness of it all puts a certain animosity once the concepts start sink in. It's a pretty clouded reality based on very selective experiences. Selective experiences DO cloud our realities.

Psychological surveys insist that the greatest majority of Americans suffer a state of being 'touch deprived'... human contact (mainly opposite sex) is what truly does establish our own internal definitions of: we are desireable, we are wanted, we have worth, we are special. This is why what some would deem 'unattractive' that have this in their lives really don't fall prey to the false church.

Unfortunately, we DO live in a society that is littered with broken people that suffocate these simple principles based on how they view others solely on physical appearance. They build walls against only those that don't match their physical criteria. They spread the disease. Most live in heavy denial, explaining how they would LIKE to live (i.e. "It's what's inside that counts!"), yet have horse-blinders on to how they treat/behave towards the 'hotties' in their lives (arousal, interest, focus & flocking) and how they treat/behave to the 'less than hotties' in their lives (distraction, disinterest, sterile).

xdamage- you don't live in denial, so I can respect that. Your desire to touch someone is at least totally initially based on how physically attractive you find them. I can understand this, where it comes from, and all your stilpulations towards the benefits of cosmetic surgery. One's own experiences will shape how they feel about this and it will vary geographically and on one's history. I do tip my hat your way though as you're at least honest with your concepts and not in denial.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 02:16 PM
Why you'd even care what others do with their bodies is beyond me, but if its really bothering you enough to bring up the topic and make a stance that its always wrong,

AGAIN, I NEVER said it was ALWAYS wrong. Read my words. I said in some cases, I can see where someone would want it. I think I said that three or four times now. Are you with us?! But people are doing it just like they are buying a pair of new shoes. lol. It's ridiculous the way some people are doing it. I simply don't believe in cutting yourself open in the name of looks. It's shallow. And the person needs to fix themselves within. And, you are putting your life and your health in danger for a self esteem issue you could actually fix instead of getting a new nose and then feeling the damn same. Doesn't matter how many men think you're hot if you feel inadequate inside.

then you're just going to have to accept that you're bound to get responses like mine or others who disagree. Clearly so since several girls here do have plastic surgery, and all I'm doing is filling in that there are obviously many other people having surgeries and its clearly made many other people happy.

It's not making them happy. They think it's going to, but all the outward changes in the world won't change who they are. I've known alot of people who have gotten cosmetic surgery, and they are just as screwed up afterward as they are before, if not moreso.

You can insist that these people are all nuts, or unable to think for themselves if you want,

I never said either of these things. You love putting words in other's mouths don't you? Stop creating words that just don't exist.

but since other people are having these surgeries, and since the evidence is hey are overall happy, what difference does it make to you why they do it? Why do you care? If its not right for you, don't do it for you, problem solved.

Why do I care?! Because it shows a societal problem that isn't being solved, just like prostitution or drug addiction.

SportsWriter2
08-18-2005, 02:22 PM
Why do I care?! Because it shows a societal problem that isn't being solved, just like prostitution or drug addiction.
Not to worry, ET, you can still find inner peace. :)

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 02:36 PM
I said not one word about looks and you are off trying to tell me how I think about looks again in some stereotypical nonesense.

Look as I said, your not capable of understanding how I think. Your going to keep on trying to fit my not so rigid views into this simpleton all or nothing model you have painted in your mind, and my thoughts on the matter just don't fit.






You asked.



So I answered. If you knew the answer then don't ask.

This stuff is all screwed up. You took it all out of the original context, and I don't have the patience to go back and point out AGAIN how you have comprehended incorrectly. I'm done with this... we can just agree to disagree. You go promote cutting yourself open to try to fit some standard of beauty, which is the most shallow thing there is, and I will promote fixing oneself within. Cosmetic surgery is for broken people, and it causes more problems in society. Self-help instead will lead the people in this society to lead longer, healthier and happier lives, which is why I stand for the causes I do - to promote causes that will lead us in the right direction in the long run. End of story.

Katrine
08-18-2005, 04:00 PM
Ok, so you ARE admitted BPD now ET? I thought you weren't? Either way, hope you had a fun birthday!

This debate is severely skewed in a forum where the women are earning their bread and butter from their looks, and where the men discuss the young and hot looking the women that they pay to hang with.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 04:22 PM
Ok, so you ARE admitted BPD now ET? I thought you weren't? Either way, hope you had a fun birthday!

This debate is severely skewed in a forum where the women are earning their bread and butter from their looks, and where the men discuss the young and hot looking the women that they pay to hang with.

I wondered if I was the only one that was thinking this.

I really don't care if someone makes their living in the looks/beauty industry, nor do I care if guys are initially (or permanently) attracted to women because of their looks, but I find the society-is-bad-because-it-focuses-on-lbeauty sentiment terribly ironic given where this is being discussed.

GiselleQ
08-18-2005, 04:55 PM
The world judges you based on surface appearance.
I consider myself fairly attaractive, but I am no raving beauty.

If I had a $5 for every customer I lost to another girl because she was so much better looking than me, I would be into some money by now.

But we live and we move on. Sorry for the digression.

Maybe, this is off topic here, but all this talk about surgery and reconstruction is reminding me of the novel Frankenstein, by Mary Shelley.

The monster is born as a romantic, but because of the worlds transgressions on him, he becomes an anti-Romantic and a Gothic character. The monster become dark, and wants to bring death and destruction to everything around him.
Now, when he sees beauty, he becomes jealous. “but she, shall suffer; the murder I have committed because I am forever robbed of all that she could give, had its source in her, she shall atone,; be hers the punishment!” (pg. 137)
When he first went into the world, all he desired was human interaction.
After watching and studying a family ofcottagers, the monster felt that he was part of their family without ever meeting them.
Even after the cottagers rejection he still had hope that they would accept him.

“But I did not believe my error to be irretrievable, after much consideration I resolved to return to the cottage, seek the old man, and by my representations win him to my party.” (pg. 131)
The monster had not condemned humanity until he saved the life of a young boy, and for a reward, he is shot. “

I had saved a human being from destruction, and as a recompense I now writhed
under the miserable pain of a wound which shattered flesh and bone.” (pg. 135)

After this event, he condemned all mankind. “I vowed eternal hatred and vengeance to all mankind.” (pg. 135)
He wanted to be accepted and to be human, but everyone he sees scorns and hates him. Even an innocent child despises him. ”

You are an ogre” ”Hideous monster, let me go!” (pg. 136)
He now hates the world and himself. The monster has all the connections to Romanticism, such as his temper being parallel to the weather, his physical and intellectual abilities surpass those of a normal person, and he represents all of man kind: good and bad. The monster loves nature and its beauty, but when he is transformed into an anti-romantic, nature mocks him. “Nature decayed around me, The sun became heatless; rain and snow poured around me; mighty rivers were frozen; the surface of the earth was hard and chill, and bare, and I found no shelter.” (pg. 133)

So, would plastic surgery done to make Frankenstein more acceptable changed his attitude? Change the people around him's attitude?
I don't know.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 05:05 PM
Ok, so you ARE admitted BPD now ET?

I have BPD, and I am in recovery.

I thought you weren't?

I didn't know it then. I mainly thought it was PTSD.

Either way, hope you had a fun birthday!

Got some nice presents! Having a steak dinner, then FUN!!! :D Thanks for the wishes.

This debate is severely skewed in a forum where the women are earning their bread and butter from their looks, and where the men discuss the young and hot looking the women that they pay to hang with.

That's true, but then again, why not?



......................................

xdamage
08-18-2005, 05:06 PM
Unfortunately, we DO live in a society that is littered with broken people that suffocate these simple principles based on how they view others solely on physical appearance. They build walls against only those that don't match their physical criteria. They spread the disease. Most live in heavy denial, explaining how they would LIKE to live (i.e. "It's what's inside that counts!"), yet have horse-blinders on to how they treat/behave towards the 'hotties' in their lives (arousal, interest, focus & flocking) and how they treat/behave to the 'less than hotties' in their lives (distraction, disinterest, sterile).

xdamage- you don't live in denial, so I can respect that. Your desire to touch someone is at least totally initially based on how physically attractive you find them. I can understand this, where it comes from, and all your stilpulations towards the benefits of cosmetic surgery. One's own experiences will shape how they feel about this and it will vary geographically and on one's history. I do tip my hat your way though as you're at least honest with your concepts and not in denial.

Thanks man. I too have friends who say the "It's what's inside that counts!" mantra but they don't behave at all like what they say. Like you mentioned exactly, around the hotties they focus, they show interest, their facial expressions change. And around the not so hot women they show disinterest, nothing happens. I am just being honest that what initially attracts me is simple physical and biological. Long term, thats a different matter but I can't lie and say that my biological system doesn't react first The only difference is they live in kind of a fuzzy state of self denial about how they really feel.

Where I do differ from a lot of other people is I don't necessarily see people as being particularly good. Sure, they can learn the mantra "It's what's inside that counts!", and if they say it enough they come to believe it, but on a more primitive level I think people are a bit more primitive in terms of what really turns them on. I know thats not politically correct. People like to see themselves as believing the mantra "It's what's inside that counts!" but when it comes down to it, you don't have to believe that to fuck, hell you dont even have to be sane to fuck. Animals fuck and it doesn't require a psychological interest to feel sexual desire.

My outlook can best be summarized in the following two books:

The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. In which Dawkins introduces his notions on how our genes have their own agendas that transcend individuals and societies.

The Blank Slate, A Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steve Pinker. In which Pinker debunks the now very politically correct and very popular notion in our culture that human are born with blank slates for brains, and that society (aka groups of humans) just dumps stuff there, completely explaining nothing about why humans behave as they do.

Finally a quick summary on my views on this this notion that sex and what interests males is just cultural and that innate human nature is not at play can be found in many articles but perhaps this is good a summary as any:

http://psychology.unn.ac.uk/nick/EPlec07.htm

In which we find that anyone that really starts to study what attracts males to females finds that there is far more consistency across cultures then there is differences.

Where I think our culture does differ from some others is that we don't have much of the mantra "It's what's inside that counts!" going on. You know the religious extremists and feminists actually are right even though they might not themselves fully understand why. In believing that if society allows sex and beauty to be objectified without limits there are negative repercussions because people don't learn the mantra "It's what's inside that counts!" After awhile they begin to see things almost strictly in terms of what is physically appealing, not what is psychologically appealing.

And there is a lot to be said for society promoting values that are greater than our animal nature (keeping in mind that on this site most people are doing quite the opposite). However, what is not valuable and is indeed dangerous is to teach people that they don't have animal natures. To teach people silly childlike notions about themselves that they have no innate drives and thats its just society that fills their head with ideas. That they are simple and pure and good inside, only driven to do what society tells them to do. Thats a great childs story, but its not real. And particularly when it comes to sex and what drives people to it, many have adopted some incredibly childlike notions of their self. Animals have managed to have sex for eons, and do it without exposure to the "media". They do it without having society telling them what to think or do. But they do have sex, and they do develop various mating rituals, and not all animals get picked equally for sexual frequency. Nobody would look at animals and say someone is just putting ideas into their heads, that there aren't innate sex drives at play. But we do this with humans. We tell ourselves complete crap like sex and sexual preference is just all learned from society. But then people like to think all kinds of romantic notions about themselves rather than just acknowledge something as simple as the sex drive is there in our genes, and not all physical traits are equally attractive. That is major not PC, like it is not PC to suggest that the earth isn't the center of the universe [oh wait, we are past that commonly held politically correct belief and weve replaced it with many other equally human-centric beliefs]). I just think we humans are very good at finding ways to avoid having to acknowledge our not so attractive sides, and we paint outselves in childlike simple ways that only acknowledge things about ourselves that we like to believe.

But as was mentioned above, its ironic to have that discussion in a forum like this considering where we are. I was hoping at least that more of the strippers would at least acknowledge that they make their living off the fact that they benefit from our societies heavy emphasis on beauty; likewise hoping more guys would acknowledge that despite the mantra "It's what's inside that counts!" that they too are very much driven by the physical. But its a PC world we live in. Its terribly incorrect to admit something as basic as, physical attraction interests me 1st, psychological attraction comes later.

GiselleQ
08-18-2005, 05:10 PM
I don't know if it is society's emphasis on beauty that makes guys go to SC's.
It is sort of like saying let's get rid of money, then all thieves would disappear.
They would find something else to steal.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 05:23 PM
I don't know if it is society's emphasis on beauty that makes guys go to SC's.
It is sort of like saying let's get rid of money, then all thieves would disappear.
They would find something else to steal.

My point was never that it was wrong to have a healthy emphasis on beauty. My point was that cosmetic surgery is taking it to the extreme. And no, I don't believe that most men go to sc because of beauty reasons.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 05:29 PM
I don't know if it is society's emphasis on beauty that makes guys go to SC's.
It is sort of like saying let's get rid of money, then all thieves would disappear.
They would find something else to steal.

No your right, guys would go anyway because they like to be around beautiful women. But less women might be in the business. More might pursue careers in jobs that focused more on their mental abilities then on their physical.

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 05:34 PM
No your right, guys would go anyway because they like to be around beautiful women. But less women might be in the business. More might pursue careers in jobs that focused more on their mental abilities then on their physical.

From my experiences of working in sc for 10 years, healthy men with good relationships do not frequent sc. The healthy male may go a few times a year or not at all. There are very few men that go to sc only because they want to see beautiful women. Only 20% of men go to sc.

FBR
08-18-2005, 05:38 PM
From my experiences of working in sc for 10 years, healthy men with good relationships do not frequent sc. The healthy male may go a few times a year or not at all. There are very few men that go to sc only because they want to see beautiful women. Only 20% of men go to sc.

ET, 20%??

I think youre focused on the wrong side of the 80/20 rule LOL

FBR

xdamage
08-18-2005, 05:46 PM
From my experiences of working in sc for 10 years, healthy men with good relationships do not frequent sc. The healthy male may go a few times a year or not at all. There are very few men that go to sc only because they want to see beautiful women. Only 20% of men go to sc.

I really dont know how often men go or know how to interpret that.

Me I go 2-3x a year, thats it. I don't obsess over it but its a blast when I go. Health relationship? Yes as much as anyones is healthy. I feel no guilt for going, but I also don't see it as the place to go to meet women. Its just a kick-ass indulgence for me, then back to reality. I like the total over the top sexy beauties. But its clear in my mind that its just a SC, a temporary indulgence in excess, nothing more.

Ana_217
08-18-2005, 05:52 PM
I see the same guys once every two to three months. Some others, once every two weeks.
Some once every four moths or longer. But when they return, they always spend a good deal of money. But they do return.
No prolem with that.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 06:51 PM
ET, 20%??

I think youre focused on the wrong side of the 80/20 rule LOL

FBR

The only guy I know who hasn't gone to a SC at least once in his life is from the middle east. But then he thinks women should wear burkas because otherwise men will lose control of themselves and see women as sex objects ;)

erotictonic
08-18-2005, 06:56 PM
The only guy I know who hasn't gone to a SC at least once in his life is from the middle east. But then he thinks women should wear burkas because otherwise men will lose control of themselves and see women as sex objects ;)

I am talking about men who go regularly... going once a year does not count as a strip club goer. I have been to a male strip club myself. That doesn't mean I go.

xdamage
08-18-2005, 06:58 PM
I am talking about men who go regularly... going once a year does not count as a strip club goer. I have been to a male strip club myself. That doesn't mean I go.

Woohoo - well hopefully you had a kick-ass great time at the male strip club ;)

Katrine
08-19-2005, 02:31 AM
I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your path to recovery ET. Us two crazy bitches are going to find the path one day, or drive some men crazy in our journey! *hugs* :)

Katrine
08-19-2005, 02:32 AM
The only guy I know who hasn't gone to a SC at least once in his life is from the middle east. But then he thinks women should wear burkas because otherwise men will lose control of themselves and see women as sex objects ;)

Is he that Ghendai SCJ character who keeps getting "forced" to go back? }:D

erotictonic
08-19-2005, 04:21 AM
I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your path to recovery ET. Us two crazy bitches are going to find the path one day, or drive some men crazy in our journey! *hugs* :)

Thanks Kat! :) That really means a lot to me! :) I'm actually doing well, although I fall back in periodically, I am feeling better and better.

xdamage
08-19-2005, 05:35 AM
Is he that Ghendai SCJ character who keeps getting "forced" to go back? }:D

Ha, no but come to think of it he reminds me of that guy. I have to work with him so I am forced to be civil. But I really wanted to suggest that he get to work on the male version of the burka. You know, it covers yours eyes, and ears so that these guys won't be forced to see or hear awful things like womens bodies that might put evil sexual thoughts in their heads.

Vyanka
08-19-2005, 12:43 PM
If it makes the person feel better, more power to them on getting it. If no one likes it, then that's fine.... everyone is entitled to their own opinion/taste. And as long as the surgery looks natural looking & appealing. ;)
Now as far as myself, the only thing I had done was my boobs. Nothing was wrong with them before, but I like the look of full breasts portioned enough with my figure. They don't look rediculous either. ;D Boob jobs don't make me beautiful though. If I were beautiful before then I will be after that "done right" BA. Because my tits have nothing to do with my face. LOL :P They're just body ornaments as I see them. :-*

Now as fas as other procedures in the future for me.....hell yes, when I turn into a middle aged woman whose falling a little off. Because aging is a motherfucker to some ppl & I for sure will be the 50 yr. old high maintained bitch. LOL.
Ain't nothing wrong with that IMO. 8)

So in all honesty really, we shouldn't care with what other's do to THEIR OWN body.

Vyanka
08-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Oh & P.S. Men will fuck anything.

lucy801
08-19-2005, 03:40 PM
When I was a young teen ager, I was involved in an auto accident which nearly destroyed my face.
I was lying in the hospital facing a bleak future living it with scarred remains of what was my face. Expensive reconstructive surgery like that takes money and I had none, nor did my folks.
Then some doctors told me that if I submitted to an new experimental technique, they would do the surgery for nominal charge. If it worked, fine, I would be beautiful. If it did not, fine, I would remain ugly. What choice did I have. Between the rock and the hard place.
The surgery result worked fine. Otherwise, I would not be here writing this.
I am not a doctor, so I cannot tell you what was involved, nor do I care.
I have been living with this face for the last six years and am happy with it.
In the end that is all that matters.

MinahSky
08-20-2005, 10:51 PM
I dont' know why this thread was even started. If you dont' like plastic surgery, dont' have any....SHIT.

evan_essence
08-22-2005, 07:56 AM
There's a difference between the cosmetic surgery end of the scale and the reconstructive or prosthetic surgery end. Cosmetic surgery is done primarily to change appearances and often times is motivated by vanity. The latter is done primarily to restore or improve the physical or deep-seated psychological well-being of the patient.

Even though my personal preference is against cosmetic surgery, I don't worry so much about women who have a preference for it. Rather, I worry whether government and doctors are adequately assessing the short and long term risks and distributing unbiased information for women to make an informed decision. Call me cynical, but I don't trust government or implant manufacturers to do a stellar job putting the patients' welfare first.

-Ev

NinaDaisy
09-09-2005, 09:12 PM
Hmmm, well people have been trying for millenia to improve their appearance according to current cultural beauty standars, and the surgical way is just newer. Even women in ancient Greece used to dye their hair.

I've met a few people who've had multiple surgical procedures and look great, but it was due to a combination of a great surgeon and restraint on the part of the patient in terms of what she wanted. A lot of women get one thing fixed, then they want another thing done, and another, plus an extra nip on the first thing, etc.

Case in point: how many dancers have we met that have had two or three boob jobs?

Gynger
09-30-2005, 05:20 PM
I only read the first post ET.. I didn't read all the others, so I'm answering to your very first post...

After going through the "should I get them done, should I not" for about three or so years.. I decided not to get my breasts done. Why? A friend of mine has had three surgeries over the course of ten years.. I also read that after a certain period of time you need to get them done again.. so, I'm considering a lollypop procedure.. which is a lift, mine aren't bad.. but after kids, they aren't as perky... just haven't had the time to get a consult.

I personally like natural women..

MeganS
10-08-2005, 02:51 AM
I have one augmentation, and am damn happy! Wasn't unhappy or "wallowing in the recesses of my dark empty soul" before hand, just got boobs, had 'em done; end result, happy!!!!!!!!!

MishaBliss
11-16-2005, 09:40 AM
I haven't read all other replys and it may have already been said, but i have had this discussion with many others.
I agree, i don't like all this plastic surgery. To me its a sign of mental and /or emotional inadequacy. I'm not talking about small things like mole/spot removal. Tattoos and piercings i consider relatively harmless decoration yet anything that changes your natural form i find extreme and usually, totally unnessesary.
I do however understand those who may have it for reconstructive purposes, such as after an accident or illness such as breast cancer etc..
But what do i know, each to his own and this is just my opinion.

MeganS
12-14-2005, 06:38 AM
I personally like natural women..

I personally like an individual who can choose what makes them most content. PS doesn't = (making up for) personal grief, nor emotional strife. Wouldn't dieting be the same thing? Altering one's self for acceptance? And how many women/men do that on a daily basis? Chew on that.

FBR
12-14-2005, 06:40 PM
I have one augmentation, and am damn happy! Wasn't unhappy or "wallowing in the recesses of my dark empty soul" before hand, just got boobs, had 'em done; end result, happy!!!!!!!!!

Megs, have you updated your gallery pics? :P

FBR