PDA

View Full Version : Imagine your daughter is a dancer...



Pages : [1] 2 3

pet_rock
08-23-2005, 02:43 PM
...what would you think of her?

Now I've read that some of you guys here HAVE daughters, so be honest, now. I suppose you'll all say you'd have no problem with it...

But here's the REAL question:

What if she were not only a dancer, but one who gives as much mileage as you're personally used to looking for from a dancer? What would you think of her then?

How much mileage would she have to give to change your opinion of her?

(I'm childless and want to stay that way--too much responsibility--so I can't really imagine this.)

Mastridonicus
08-23-2005, 02:46 PM
Well, assuming I am not a deadbeat father, I would have raised her as best as I could and I would hope she could make decisions like an adult. If I found out she was a dancer at 18 I would be nervous, but step back and prepair to help her if she falls. At 21, I don't think I would mind, however the only times I would mind is if she never spoke about it and put off the vibe that she was unhappy.

Other than that, she's a grown woman, I can only make sure I can help her if she needs it :/ Why bother being a dick about it. If she is a 'DANCER' then she already did all the work, and I would be proud to know my daughter was hot enough too to be one...Tho I dunno where she'd get the good looks from.

::Mast::

SportsWriter2
08-23-2005, 03:10 PM
A`favorite once told me, "If you were my father, I wouldn't be a dancer." I really can't imagine it.

That said, I'd care about personal health and safety more than whether she broke club rules.

kassyS
08-23-2005, 03:34 PM
A`favorite once told me, "If you were my father, I wouldn't be a dancer."

This is implying that if she had a father, her economic situation would have been better and she would not have become what she is now.

Sorry, I don't buy this.

I came into this line of work, mainly because it afforded me the fastest and quickest way to make a whole lot money fast. And I have.

Not to say that I did not have a loving home, two parents, two other sisters,
but sometimes you got to strike out on your own.

Call me mercenary, or whatever, but I could never had the opportunity for education, to advance myself.

I saw too soon what my future was going to be, like my two older sisters, trapped in a loveless marriage, burdened with children, catering to their husbands every whim.

No, if I was going to have my future, I was going to have to create it, and this line of work has helped me. It sure did.

xdamage
08-23-2005, 03:35 PM
pinkies probably want to look away now...

Its difficult to answer without adding a stipulation.

I'd be very unhappy if my daughter who has the intellectual talent, potential, and curiosity to do more than remove her clothes and grind on guys cocks ended up spending her 20s dancing when she could be using that time to further her intellectual career. There is simply no substitute for experience, and losing 10+ years can be irreplaceable time in most scientific and engineering fields. When all is said and done school isn't enough; it's a starting point of a career, but it's the people who love their field enough to work in it and involve themselves in it on their off time that are the real stars and winners in their fields.

Now of course some people can't afford school. I couldn't afford much. My parents didnt save any money for college so I payed for it by working full time. But there are other careers then stripping and I found one related to my field. Stripping wasn't a choice of course ;) But working my related field was critically important in the long run when it came time to look for new, and better paying, work. So I'd encourage anyone with career aspirations to consider there is a tremendous long term cost associated with not working in a job that is related to your career.

Anyway... thats the stipulation. If however she didn't have it in her to be in a field where experience is critical and she ended up stripping then I can't say I'd really care how much mileage she put out as long as she has the good sense to be safe. No unsafe fluid exchanges. If you're going to grind a little, then you may as well grind a lot.

As Mast suggested, the only other major issue would be if fundamentally she bitched about it all the time, but kept on doing it. I don't have a lot of patience for people that burn up their time in life doing something they don't like but that for all the bitching don't find the motivation to find something that they do like. The old saying about money isn't everything applies. Also she'd surely get a lecture from me on how ironic it is that she burned up so much time telling me about how males have better career opportunities then females if she then ended up choosing to work in the oldest female profession in history.

SportsWriter2
08-23-2005, 04:23 PM
This is implying that if she had a father, her economic situation would have been better and she would not have become what she is now.

Sorry, I don't buy this.

I think she meant a combination of genes, environment and money. But yeah, even that's no guarantee.

doc-catfish
08-23-2005, 04:24 PM
Someone's daughter becoming a dancer is God's/karma's way of getting back at dead old Dad for visiting strip clubs. Feminists try to use this 'what if it were your daughter" argument to guilt trip us all the time.

Needless to say, I would hope to bond enough with my kids where they could approach me or their mother on about anything. If I had a daughter who was interested in dancing, I'd hope that she would have enough courage to tell her parents without fearing their wrath. If she got into it, did some things she wasn't proud of, and decided that the business wasn't for her, I'd hope she'd feel free to chat with us about that as well.

While I would be understandably worried, I would only raise objections if I saw that she was being sucked in to the pitfalls related to the job. The more upfront she could be with me about her work, the less I feel that she would be hiding from me, and the better her mother and I could sleep at night.

And even if I had to object, perhaps I could convince her to go to beauty school, move to Utah, open up a Bikinicuts shop, and make impressionable young Mormon boys graduate into puberty.

http://www.bikinicuts.com/

Judging by the website, she could even keep her stripper clothes. ;)

FBR
08-23-2005, 05:58 PM
My one and only daughter is prime stripper age..22 y/o. She's a doll and probably would do OK but she does struggle with appearance confidence issues.

Without actually experiencing it, I believe I would support her regardless of her career choice. But to be honest, I'm glad she has her Masters.

FBR

yoda57us
08-23-2005, 07:14 PM
Strangely enough I had this conversation with my daughter a few years ago when there was a news story of a coed getting kicked off of whatever college team she was on because she was dancing to pay her tuition. Mythen 14 year old couldn't understand what the dancer was doing wrong.

I'd be OK with it but not thrilled. It's got nothing to do with morality, it's simply because most men in stripclubs are assholes and it's a parent's natural instinct to want to protect their kids from assholes.

Oh, and by the way, those without daughters are really not qualified to judge in this case.
You can't imagine what goes through your head every time a guy looks at your teenager the way we all did when we where teenagers unless you've lived it.

Katrine
08-24-2005, 08:26 AM
Well, in my actual experience with this, my father called me a whore and told me to remove any evidence of my existence from his home. We patched it up a few months later after my mom convinced him that there was NO WAY I would actually be doing something as horrid and lowly as stripping. I imagine that your reality would be closer to mine if it happened to you.

And I know my father regularly cheats on mom AND sees hookers in Mexico. That's about all of my input.

Jenny
08-24-2005, 08:36 AM
I don't know - really I don't even know how fair the question is. I mean, how many father's would want to know about their daughters engaging in similar behaviour for free? Or want to know about their intimate details of what they like and don't like sexually? I don't think parents should really have to deal with their children's sexuality in today's society - since we have so sanitized all family relations, it's bound to seem weird and discomfitting when someone else doesn't see them in that sanitized way. I don't tell my parents because it's not something I'm interested in forcing them to deal with - although I have absolute faith that neither of them would call me a whore or disown me. They would both insist that I quit immediately, and probably use whatever means they had at their disposal to try to make me. I must admit - I do have a little incredulity that everyone here would be SO okay with it. I would not want my hypothetical kid doing this, and I think relatively few dancers would.

pet_rock
08-24-2005, 09:38 AM
Well, I perhaps meant to open the guys who write the trip reports that she is SOMEONES daughter--could be their own! }:D

And I guess I was also going for the awkwardness of introducing your daughter to your boss at a dinner and saying she's a stripper--it's got that stigma attached to it. Just like you might not want to introduce your son as a garbage-man, say. (Now please don't go on about that being a necessary job, since it IS critical, but it is also looked-down on as a warm-body sort of position, if you see what I mean.)

Has there ever been a poll on the pink side that asks if your parents know about your stripping? It seems like a LOT keep it on the down low and I'd be curious as to the actual numbers...

As for their child's sexuality, I agree that most parents don't want to know. Movies poke fun of the dad going after the guy she's dating because HE knows what the mother f'er is trying to do to his daughter! Dealing with a boyfriend would be bad enough--they don't want to think that their girl is out there night-after-night doing some level of 'it' with different guys in a SC for money. (Stripping--it's not just a job, it's a sex adventure!)

Anyway, the question IS fair here since the people we're asking know all about SCs and what they in their heart-of-hearts think about it and the women they select...

Katrine
08-24-2005, 10:47 AM
. (Stripping--it's not just a job, it's a sex adventure!)

::)



Anyway, the question IS fair here since the people we're asking know all about SCs and what they in their heart-of-hearts think about it and the women they select...
::)::)::) Tool

xdamage
08-24-2005, 11:00 AM
Well, I perhaps meant to open the guys who write the trip reports that she is SOMEONES daughter--could be their own! }:D


Or could be someones mother (eventually) or sister, could be your own. ;)

Welcome to the wonderful world of conflicts of interest in what we want. We all struggle with them. Its a fair question you raise, but it's unresolvable. Bottom line is I want to have my cake and eat it too. Most people do. Some are more or less honest about it. Some are better able to resolve the conflicts and hold to their 'ideals' .

I want a society that makes it legal for girls to strip; I want to be able to occassionally enjoy stripping as a customer; I wouldn't want my daughter doing it not as compared with so many other things she might do for work. Inconsistent? Yes.

I don't know that I really care too much about if she has a freaky sex life in private, although I wouldn't want to talk about it with her.

I do care that she earns her living using her very talented brain and not waste that talent as I'm quite sure she'd end up ultimately feeling bitter in the long run if she wasted that talent. Plus I'd hate to see her treated like crap because everyone (including myself) ended looking down on her for choosing to strip vs choosing some other job that would carry more prestige (and less negative social stigma).

Beyond the social stigma I'd hate to see her grow up to be bitter and negative about men and it seems a lot of stripper do end disliking men if they stay in the business long enough.

This summer she spent the summer in her first real high pressure job, working for an engineering company as an apprentice. Its done her a world of good to spend the last summer working in "man's" job, in an engineering company with pressures and deadlines to meet. She's been raised with a lot of PC notions about males vs females in the job market. But it's really changed a lot of her childlike notions about what men do all day in a technical oriented job. She is getting some exposure to how business operates. What a shame it would have been if she spent her life thinking that all men do all day is focus on sex (not that its not in the back of our minds but we do actually manage to to find time to feed ourselves and accomplish a bit more than spank the monkey all day).

pet_rock
08-24-2005, 12:33 PM
Quoted from pet_rock:
(Stripping--it's not just a job, it's a sex adventure!)


::)


Hmmmm, I meant that over here on the blue-side I wasn't sure if it's just a job and NOT sexual at all, or if you're sex-workers and if it's reality or if it's all fantasy and which dancers hold which positions on these ideas--it's soooo confusing! /:O

Since I specified the mileage you expect to normally get, I guess the closest I can come is to think about my own reaction by thinking about my ATF. I'm perfectly fine with her contact level with me and she can do that with any other customer all day long. However, if I found out she was giving heavy extras I would be disturbed and disappointed. (And NOT just because she's not giving them to me! }:D )


Quoted from pet_rock:
Anyway, the question IS fair here since the people we're asking know all about SCs and what they in their heart-of-hearts think about it and the women they select...


::) x 3 Tool

Hmmm, I was going to say 'A Perfect Circle!' Then I was going to say 'Hoe! :D ' since a hoe is a Tool...but I guess I'll just admit I'm confused as to what there was to be sarcastic about--who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men, after all?

(Did you know you can't have more than 5 images--including smilies--in a post? That's why I had to go with Roll Eyes x 3 above...)

mr_punk
08-24-2005, 04:38 PM
Imagine your daughter is a dancer......what would you think of her?nothing. my contribution to mankind is not to have kids. however, if i did have a daughter who was a stripper. i suppose, i would have to send her to a 12-step program (http://sexindustrysurvivors.com/main.htm)}:D. sheesh, it seems they have a recovery program for everything under the sun these days. i wonder what the meetings must be like. hmmm...:

stripper #1: hi, my name is candy and i'm a recovering stripper.
group: hi candy.
stripper #1: last night, i fell off the wagon and worked a shift at the stripclub. i let a customer finger me and performed 3 HJ and 2 BBBJ.
stripper #2: i'm gonna claw your eyeballs out. you nasty, filthy, cum-sucking biatch. you're messing up my money! oh, i'm so sorry candy. old reflexes die hard. i forgot that we're trying to quit stripping..BTW, how much money did you make?

Feminists try to use this 'what if it were your daughter" argument to guilt trip us all the time.i agree. let's save the social arm twisting for sunday school.

And I guess I was also going for the awkwardness of introducing your daughter to your boss at a dinner and saying she's a stripper--it's got that stigma attached to it. Just like you might not want to introduce your son as a garbage-man, say. (Now please don't go on about that being a necessary job, since it IS critical, but it is also looked-down on as a warm-body sort of position, if you see what I mean.)actually, it's more likely he would that introduce his daughter as the garbage man. since, that would be a more acceptable cover story for the daughter rather than tell her father that she's a stripper.

Since I specified the mileage you expect to normally get, I guess the closest I can come is to think about my own reaction by thinking about my ATF. I'm perfectly fine with her contact level with me and she can do that with any other customer all day long. However, if I found out she was giving heavy extras I would be disturbed and disappointed. (And NOT just because she's not giving them to me!it doesn't sound as if you're dating her. so, why would you even care? let me guess... it's ruining your fantasy?

yoda57us
08-28-2005, 08:23 AM
Well, I perhaps meant to open the guys who write the trip reports that she is SOMEONES daughter--could be their own! }:D

Well, then why didn't you ask that in the first place? totaly different question.


And I guess I was also going for the awkwardness of introducing your daughter to your boss at a dinner and saying she's a stripper--it's got that stigma attached to it. Just like you might not want to introduce your son as a garbage-man, say. (Now please don't go on about that being a necessary job, since it IS critical, but it is also looked-down on as a warm-body sort of position, if you see what I mean.)

I would bet that most dancers wouldn't introduce themselves as dancers to total strangers. However, the stigma is yours, not theirs.


Has there ever been a poll on the pink side that asks if your parents know about your stripping? It seems like a LOT keep it on the down low and I'd be curious as to the actual numbers......

Why don't you go look?


As for their child's sexuality, I agree that most parents don't want to know.......

Good point, though it took a parent and a daughter to point it out to you.


Anyway, the question IS fair here since the people we're asking know all about SCs and what they in their heart-of-hearts think about it and the women they select...

Which question? The one you started this thread with or the one you actually wanted to ask? Like I said, two entirely different questions.

evan_essence
09-01-2005, 08:10 AM
I want a society that makes it legal for girls to strip; I want to be able to occassionally enjoy stripping as a customer; I wouldn't want my daughter doing it not as compared with so many other things she might do for work. Inconsistent? Yes.Thank you for being honest about that.


I do care that she earns her living using her very talented brain and not waste that talent as I'm quite sure she'd end up ultimately feeling bitter in the long run if she wasted that talent.Explain to me how she'd be wasting her brain stripping compared to engineering. She's got the same brain in either job. Am I incorrect in assuming she'd use it to do the best and make the most money in either job? That, if she chose to apply her mind to stripping, she wouldn't fit Mr_P's description of "flaky" strippers. Perhaps you're making a value judgment here and disguising it in terms of amount of intellect used?


Plus I'd hate to see her treated like crap because everyone (including myself) ended looking down on her for choosing to strip vs choosing some other job that would carry more prestige (and less negative social stigma).Since you can't control how others treat her, I can understand why you'd hate to see her in a job that's stigmatized by others. However, might I suggest that you stop looking down on women for choosing to strip? That's one person I know you can control. And it would be one less person contributing to the social stigma which you wouldn't want your daughter to experience.

-Ev

xdamage
09-01-2005, 10:40 PM
Explain to me how she'd be wasting her brain stripping compared to engineering. She's got the same brain in either job.


You're playing word games with yourself and only confusing yourself. I'll spell it out by way of example:

My dog can learn to do a trick where he rolls over.

I can learn to do do a trick where I roll over.

My dog cannot learn how to do calculus.

I can learn how to do calculus.

My dog is not wasting his talent doing roll over tricks.

I am wasting my talents doing roll over tricks.

Let's not have a silly argument that removing ones clothes for a living is an equivalent use of her mental capabilities and mental potential as say, engineering, or medicine, or many other potential jobs that she might do, just because she has the same brain either way.

While she could indeed learn to remove her clothes and lap dance, she could drop out of school and learn that. Removing ones clothes may indeed pay well, and may be emotionally stressful, and require polishing ones hustling skills, there is a reason why a sexy drop out can get a job stripping, but cannot get a job as a doctor, or a lawyer, or a computer programmer, and so on. Conversely there is a reason why a very intelligent, A+ student might get a job as an engineer, but not have the looks to be a stripper. Innate intellectual talent, and curiosity in areas of math, and science are not equal requirement for these jobs for the same reasons that beauty and looks are not equal requirement for these jobs.

And lets not personalize it because its not just about dancing.

She could also end up as janitor, and have the same brain. And I wouldn't recommend she do that either.

Nor would I recommend she spend her life baking cookies, or arranging flowers as a florist. She could of course bake cookies, or mop floors for a living We teach retarded adults to those kind of jobs. But those aren't the jobs that are really going to push her or use her full sets of abilities. And conversely the retarded adults cannot be trained to do the types of jobs she is capable of doing.

Its not just about dancing, so lets not personalize it.

Plus let's not be short sighted. There are many jobs where if you waste your 20s and your not active in the field you will not be taken seriously later.. If she spends her 20s spending 8hrs a day dancing (or arranging flowers, or baking cookies, or mopping floors) thats 8hrs a day that she is not going to be involved in an industry where she will be pushed and put under pressure to learn the skills she needs to be effective in many fields that require years of study and practice. People do notice when your resume is a big blank for several years, or you put down some job which clearly has nothing to do with the field you want to work in.

She cant afford to waste that time in her life, then wake up later and realize her dancing days are over (because her looks have faded, and they will fade, yours too) and then find that people only want to hire her for intellectual skills, skills that she spent very little time developing as compared with people who are working in the industries she will be competing against.



Since you can't control how others treat her, I can understand why you'd hate to see her in a job that's stigmatized by others. However, might I suggest that you stop looking down on women for choosing to strip? That's one person I know you can control. And it would be one less person contributing to the social stigma which you wouldn't want your daughter to experience.
-Ev

Easily said, but I think it would be more enlightening if you included Jenny in that:



I would not want my hypothetical kid doing this, and I think relatively few dancers would.


Once you've resolved how it is that someone in the industry wouldn't want her own kid doing it, then you can jump on me for saying the same. I think that works better because that way you can hash out why it is that another dancer wouldnt want her daughter doing it. Then I could just nod my head in agreement or disagreement if her reasons also make sense to me.

See it might well be that its not the best choice of a job, even if some end up doing it. And then you might have to rethink whether or not its I that need to change my thinking or you that need to accept that are legit reasons why we wouldn't want our own daughters dancing.

But as I said above, don't read too much into it. I also wouldn't want her to spend her 20s working as a florist, or a janitor, or a waitress, or baking cookies, or thousands of other jobs that she might do, but that would not take advantage what she has shown that she is intellectualy capable of.

evan_essence
09-05-2005, 03:39 AM
You're playing word games with yourself and only confusing yourself.Stop imagining how I play with myself or I'll have to charge you for that. ;D


My dog is not wasting his talent doing roll over tricks.
I am wasting my talents doing roll over tricks.Well, maybe, but everyone knows from the example you gave that there's a bigger demand for a bitch turning tricks than you, so it's unlikely you'd be given the opportunity. :D


Let's not have a silly argument that removing ones clothes for a living is an equivalent use of her mental capabilities and mental potential as say, engineering, or medicine, or many other potential jobs that she might do, just because she has the same brain either way.Silly? I'm a stripper, I only do flaky. 8)

Okay, look, all of the above was tongue in cheek. Now let me be serious.

Here's what I was thinking, but I didn't have a good description of it until I thought further on it. If your daughter chooses to be a janitor because she's simply fascinated with janitorial work, she's not likely to stay at the usual janitor level. She's going to figure out how to apply that superb mind to what she loves in a way that's highly stimulating and lucrative for her. She'll likely rise to be the CEO of her own janitorial frachising firm with offices worldwide. In other words, her achievement will rise to meet the mental potential available to her. That's what I mean by the same brain.

In stripping, she could decide to do it on the side for extra investment money or fulltime to make and invest enough money to buy and sell us 100 times over, then quit at 30 and start training for an entirely new career in something else. What does she put on her resume? I dunno - her net worth? You can find a plausible workaround for that with some clever planning, especially if you're embarking on a remake of yourself. Again, that's the potential of the same brain that's capable of tackling engineering.


Once you've resolved how it is that someone in the industry wouldn't want her own kid doing it, then you can jump on me for saying the same. I think that works better because that way you can hash out why it is that another dancer wouldnt want her daughter doing it. Then I could just nod my head in agreement or disagreement if her reasons also make sense to me.The difference between what Jenny said and what you said, is that you stated people including yourself would look down upon a daughter who stripped. Looking down upon her is more extreme than stating you wouldn't want her to do it. You both stated the latter; only you stated the former. Plus you described it as wasting her talents. Those are the comments that triggered my response. That and a good deal of defensiveness since this is about the third thread in which you've raised the idea I'm wasting my life but noooo, I won't take it personally. Oops, that slipped out, sorry. /:O

-Ev

Jenny
09-05-2005, 08:45 AM
^^^
I wouldn't look down on my daughter for stripping. Because that would be stupid considering my life. And anyone who looked down on my hypothetical daughter for stripping would get no sympathy or understanding from me - they would most likely get a metaphorical kick in the teeth - which incidentally is probably pretty much what they'd get from my mum or dad for looking down on me. I am choosing not to elaborate on my reasons because they have to do with feelings, and I would feel silly telling you guys about my feelings. But I can say with emphasis that it has nothing to do with the social value of stripping.

See interestingly, although I don't think there is anything inherently wrong in not wanting your kid (or hypothetical kid) to strip because you feel uncomfortable with knowing too much about her sexuality, or whatever (like parents know their kids have sex, but they don't want to think about it or know about it too much) but I do think it is kind of questionable to consume in an industry that you generally have such disrespect for.

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 11:26 AM
Dancer (running toward me, arms open wide): DADDY!
Me (giving her a hug): How's my little girl?
Dancer: I'm good, Daddy. (yada yada, probation officer, drug classes, period in two days....)
Me: Are you being a good girl in champagne?
Dancer: Uh huh, I'm only bad with my DADDY.

It doesn't bother me that she dances. :D

yoda57us
09-05-2005, 01:44 PM
As long as your paying her at below fair market value, right Sporty?:great:

Katrine
09-05-2005, 02:02 PM
Dancer (running toward me, arms open wide): DADDY!
Me (giving her a hug): How's my little girl?
Dancer: I'm good, Daddy. (yada yada, probation officer, drug classes, period in two days....)
Me: Are you being a good girl in champagne?
Dancer: Uh huh, I'm only bad with my DADDY.

It doesn't bother me that she dances. :D

Can I just say....ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, that's just not right man! :ill:

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 02:29 PM
Can I just say....ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, that's just not right man! :ill:

Oh yeah, it skeeves me out, too, but her real dad's in prison for a long time. :-\

FourWinns
09-05-2005, 03:24 PM
I think most of us have to survive using a combination of our bodies and minds. You can honor or sell out either one.

I've been an intellectual whore many times over to keep my business afloat. Pride's not even part of the equation anymore. If it pays what I need and I can sleep I'm mostly OK with it. One of my clients has an acronym for the shit they want me to put up with - "BOHiCA" - Bend Over Here it Comes Again.

From my SC experience it doesn't seem that stripping is a very good way to get by for a girl - maybe for a limited time - maybe I'm wrong on this point though.

It's still a few years before my girls are stripper age but mostly I wouldn't have a problem with it if they need (which is likely) to supplant their education dollars. I hope to teach them enough to coldcock some bastard like me that gets too handsy with them. What a girl learns from dancing about males, etc. has to be worth more than what she may earn in
dollars.

evan_essence
09-06-2005, 09:29 AM
And anyone who looked down on my hypothetical daughter for stripping would get no sympathy or understanding from me - they would most likely get a metaphorical kick in the teethWhat's your hypothetical daughter's name? Can we see hypothetical pictures? Erm, and who's the hypothethical daddy?

-Ev

xdamage
09-06-2005, 10:14 AM
What does she put on her resume? I dunno - her net worth?
-Ev

We don't hire engineers based on their net worth. We also don't hire surgeons, lawyers, chemists, physicists, mathematicians, and so on based on their networth. We hire them for their intellectual skills.

Drug dealers also have accumulated a great deal net worth by 30, but that doesn't have anything to do with their prepardness for jobs that are intellectually oriented.

While its fine if you want to spend your 20s or 30s dancing, there are legit reasons why its not the best choice for everyone, not if your plan is to enter some careers, and you don't need that money. My daughter doesn't need the short-term money because I'm covering her college expenses.



You can find a plausible workaround for that with some clever planning, especially if you're embarking on a remake of yourself. Again, that's the potential of the same brain that's capable of tackling engineering.
-Ev

Some girls do it for money, its more than they will make per hour doing something elese.. Thats fine, but since I was talking about my daughter and since Im paying for her school thats irrelevant to my comments.



The difference between what Jenny said and what you said, is that you stated people including yourself would look down upon a daughter who stripped.
-Ev

Im pretty sure I said if she wasn't capable of doing more or had to make the money I'd say otherwise, but mine doesn't need the money and she is capable of doing more.

As for society looking down on strippers and customers, well they do. We can pretend that isn't so or we can face the reality of it. I don't really give a shit if society is a wonderful good morale neutral place that embraces stripping because thats not going to happen, and I'm not going on some crusade to try and change that. I do however care what happens to my daughter in life, and I do protect her. Besides, if I was to feel like a crusader (which I don't) I don't entirely have good things to say about strip clubs either. You'd have to take the good with the bad and I think we are just better off not going there. ;)



Plus you described it as wasting her talents.
-Ev

It is what it is. I'm not going to be politically correct here. There are plenty of people who will do that ;) I think you already know my take on this from other threads..

Sexuality is a very innate talent. Our genes have been preparing it for us for eons. Your probably good at it, a lot of girls are, it doesn't require an education to become a stripper for a reason. We are born with a lot of innate sexual abilities, and strong senses about what works sexually.

But our genes have not been preparing us to solve quantum physics problems because there is no need for it in a primitive culture and barely any need need for it in a modern one. It is not an innate talent. It requires study, commitment, and like physical training, it requires will power and mental efforts that are not innate but that require a lot of focused effort to build up those parts of our intellect that we are not innately born with.

Some people do show more talents in areas of math, physics and others the same that some show more talents in the areas of art, and music. It's a waste of these peoples talents to not use those abilities, and to do something which the average person has no interest in doing, and simply won't do because they find the math or the mental challenges just too grueling and uninteresting. Beyond that there are just many concepts that are very abstract, and that not everyone equally takes too for the same reason not everyone is equally skilled at painting what they see, or sculpting it, or expressing it in song, or matching a pitch with their voice, and so on.

People simply do not show equal intellect in all areas and when someone shows exceptional talents in an area its a waste to let those talents wither. You probably are going to not like to hear that because its very PC to believe everyone has equal "intellect" (a simple word for a complex concept) but as you well know I don't believe that. Intellectual abilities vary as much as artistic talents, physical traits (height, length, width), etc., on a bell curve where most people have similar intellectual skills, some individuals show extremely poor skills in some areas, others show extremely keen skills in some areas.

While there is nothing wrong with your choosing to dance, you also don't need (or want) my approval for it. On the flip side don't take my not wanting my daughter to do it as disapproval of what you've chosen. That choice may make sense for you. It doesn't follow though that all choices are neutral, or that it must also be a viable (equal) choice for other women.

I'm also not going to tell you that I think everyone contributes equally to society, or that I think stripping is an exceptional talent akin to that of an exceptional artist, or exceptional physicist, or exceptional surgeon. Its just sexual stimulation. Fine, we like it but thats it. And I can live with the fact just fine that there are people who engage in professions and personal persuits that contribute far greater overall useful (and negative) input to society than my mediocre contributions. Can you? The average person simply can't handle that thought. While I have no problem with people doing what they want for themselves, if you don't tell them they are the equal of a Richard Feynman (known for the likes of "quantum electrodynamics", brilliant and so far beyond the contributions of most of us), they get all PC on you about how we are all equal. Nonesense.

evan_essence
09-07-2005, 01:13 PM
While its fine if you want to spend your 20s or 30s dancing, there are legit reasons why its not the best choice for everyone, not if your plan is to enter some careers, and you don't need that money. My daughter doesn't need the short-term money because I'm covering her college expenses.Well, you're misunderstanding me. My point was that, if she wanted to dance, she could and probably would apply her intellect to doing it in a way that enabled her to do it while she was young, become very financially healthy in the process and start a new career at 30, which the money would make possible. The fixing of her resume upon launching the second career could be easily accomplished.

I wasn't trying to imply she's going to choose stripping out of a need for money to do something else. I was speaking hypothetically of a situation in which she chooses stripping because she's interested in it, realizes it won't last forever, and saves money for the inevitable moment that she wants to, or needs to, move on to something else. I didn't mean to glorify money as the end. I was glorifying it as a means to ensuring that stripping is only the first of many additional career choices she can exercise.

And for the record, I'm talking more about a hypothetical person than specifically talking about your daughter. I don't mean to be talking as if I know her; I'm speaking in general about any woman with your daughter's level of intellect. We're just using her as a convenient reference point and because I don't understand your attitude about this as it manifests itself in regard to her.


Im pretty sure I said if she wasn't capable of doing more or had to make the money I'd say otherwise, but mine doesn't need the money and she is capable of doing more.You keep returning to this point as if money and not being capable of doing anything else are the only reasons. What if she simply is interested in it and wants to do it? If she wanted to do it, would a plan similar to the one I just outlined (strip now, save money and change careers at 30) not be acceptable to you, dad? Does this plan not capitalize on her intellect? Or does it capitalize on her intellect but not in a way that you find acceptable?


As for society looking down on strippers and customers, well they do. We can pretend that isn't so or we can face the reality of it. I don't really give a shit if society is a wonderful good morale neutral place that embraces stripping because thats not going to happen, and I'm not going on some crusade to try and change that.Agreed. Please don't try that. Leave society alone. That part is beyond your control. Now, for the part that's within your control. Nothing stopping you from changing your attitude, is there? Society can rock on, but you can choose your attitude for yourself. So be a nice boy and quit looking down on strippers. Keep your dislike of the choice of career. There are plenty of pitfalls to it, so it's only logical to not want loved ones to do it. But lose the looking down from on high part. Repeating... that's just for you. Not society. No crusades (they never work anyway). Only fine tuning on you, chosen by you, for you. And speaking on behalf of stripperdom, I thank you for it.



People simply do not show equal intellect in all areas and when someone shows exceptional talents in an area its a waste to let those talents wither.See, I think those talents are going to come out regardless. I don't think you could hold them back with an extensive levee system. I think you have a very narrow view of acceptable outlets for those talents, but that's just the way I see it. That's probably the flaky me viewing it this way.


While there is nothing wrong with your choosing to dance, you also don't need (or want) my approval for it.No, really, I do. Maybe I'm just being a dope but I tend to like customer approval. It's nice, considering all the disapproval that comes from other quarters. You would think I'd at least have the approval and respect of the customers I'm serving, wouldn't you? After all, they are patronizing the service. You'd think that act alone would be de facto approval. Apparently not.

-Ev

Jenny
09-07-2005, 01:56 PM
Interestingly enough, I just started my first week at law school, and I have been talking to, literally, dozens of recruiters, professors and industry people. Not one of them seems to think that at 30 one's career is done, finished and can't be revived. They all seem quite open and interested (even aggressively so) in hiring people over 30, and don't seem to think this is an insurmountable career stumbling block. Many, many of the people in my class are over 25 - alhtough I think I might be the only one over 25 who doesn't have a PhD. Don't know how the hell that happened. Anyway - they are obviously have varied and good experience - I've met a microbiologist, chemical engineer, an actor and another English major - however obviously none of them have any experience in law except what they will garner through the school. And much of the class will be over 30 by the time we're done, even more by the time we've articled. I don't think the years between 20-28 are really all that crucial.

xdamage
09-07-2005, 02:06 PM
The fixing of her resume upon launching the second career could be easily accomplished.
-Ev

Some careers you are at a serious disadvantage if you start late. Oh you may get a job later, but you won't be competing against the senior people, you will be fighting for jobs against the newbs and junior people. You will be working with people who have a 10-15yr head start on you and that's not a great place to be when you're older and companies are laying off or looking to promote.



And for the record, I'm talking more about a hypothetical person than specifically talking about your daughter. I don't mean to be talking as if I know her; I'm speaking in general about any woman with your daughter's level of intellect. We're just using her as a convenient reference point and because I don't understand your attitude about this as it manifests itself in regard to her.

You keep returning to this point as if money and not being capable of doing anything else are the only reasons. What if she simply is interested in it and wants to do it? If she wanted to do it, would a plan similar to the one I just outlined (strip now, save money and change careers at 30) not be acceptable to you, dad? Does this plan not capitalize on her intellect? Or does it capitalize on her intellect but not in a way that you find acceptable?
-Ev

This is related to what I was trying to tell you in another thread were we got stuck on Larry Summers and the talk about why women aren't entering the mathematics, scientific, and engineering fields. Worse, why is the interest in these fields among females declining?

The thing is I do understand what would attract a woman to dancing! It is a common. There is a lot of biological appeal because you have eons of your genes evolving to be good at sex and sex appeal. But that I was trying to tell you in that thread is that most people simply don't find themselves drawn to these other fields, less so women. These other fields are very non-intuitive, non-biologically interesting to the average person. Even rarer still is to find women who actually love doing math, and engineering type work enough to actually want to do it.

And be careful to understand what I am saying. There is a vast world of difference between the woman who says "I like math" or who says "I like science" and those who actually love it enough to en-roll in full time school and work in these fields full time. It is extremely easy to say, but completely and utterly a different matter to devote ones life to it.

In my daughters college, there are precisely two (!2!) women enrolled in engineering. There are hundreds of males who are interested in this field. And the college is offering incentives for women to enter these fields. And you know what? The enrollment in of women in engineering, and hard sciences has been steadily decreasing over the last 10 years.

Now the point is this. And try not to take this the wrong way. I find her interest in the fields of math and engineering admirable, and unusual, I'm going to do everything I can to encourage it. I have no patience or interest in anti-male sentiment, but I absolutely do believe in womens rights to pursue the same types of jobs some men are attracted to and damnit if she loves engineernig then I'm going to help her be an engineer.

And incase you haven't figured it out, she loves engineering. It's not just me putting thoughts into her head. She is actually to make decisions for herself ;)

On the flip side I also understand why a woman would be attracted to dancing, but I don't find that particularly surprising or unusual. While many women won't strip, or aren't good looking enough to make a lot of money doing it, many still find the notion of stripping a lot more exciting then the notion of working on boring engineering problems which our genes have not prepared us for.

Let me get to the point though. The plan to dance now, save now, do something later is common (typical human nature), but when later comes the chances of a person actually then becoming a successful scientist (or suddenly taking an innate interest the kind of interest they needed to be showing as a young person) is less likely to happen. It's sounds good but its not realistic based on how people really behave. Come 10 or 15 years later the person is most likely to be even less likely to pursue a career that makes heavy mathematical and scientific demands because they are likely to find those fields utterly and completely boring, non-interesting, and the work grueling.

You know there is a saying among physicists that they do their most important work in their 20s. They teach in their 30s. And by their 40s they are burnt out. Its human nature when it comes to careers that makes demands on us to change our intellect in ways that our genes have not prepared us for. When later comes you may understand better why I say that. The time to pursue a mathematical career, or scientific career is as early as possible.



No, really, I do. Maybe I'm just being a dope but I tend to like customer approval. It's nice, considering all the disapproval that comes from other quarters. You would think I'd at least have the approval and respect of the customers I'm serving, wouldn't you? After all, they are patronizing the service. You'd think that act alone would be de facto approval. Apparently not.
-Ev

What difference does it make? There are many people who have accomplished much more than I have in life. And many people who have accomplished much less. I don't need approval from others for for what I have accomplished. By the same token, I don't want people BSing me and telling me I've done as much as I could. I could definitely have done more.

I do give you some respect. For example, I find that you are very intelligent, and I respect that you work (I assume hard) to make ends meet. That's far greater than what most accomplish. But I'm also being honest in saying there are even greater accomplishments that you could make if you wanted too. Dancing is fine, but its not the highest level of accomplishment possible, just like what I do for a living is fine, but I coud accomplish more.

[edit/added 9/8/05]

I should add here that I don't give a lot of credence to the opinions of people who answer this question that don't actually have a daughter of working age. It's easy to be idealistic when there is no real impact on you. It's an entirely different thing to answer this question in the context of it really affecting you. I am answering honestly. You may not like that it isn't all positive, but it's honest and real. When you have your own daughter and she is in the position to choose a career path, you'll find out how you real feel about her choosing to dance vs choosing a career like say medicine, law, engineering, etc.

xdamage
09-07-2005, 02:30 PM
I don't think the years between 20-28 are really all that crucial.

We have dozens of people that apply for jobs. They fall into two basic groups. Group 1 has degrees and little or no experience or evidence that they really love their field. Daddy paid for their degrees and they want jobs to pay the bills. Yawn. Group 2 has (or in some cases doesn't have) degrees, but also have many years of experience working and volunteering in the field because they love the field. Group 2 people are invariably 10x the candidates that group 1 people are. Group 1 people eventually end up getting jobs, just not with us because we don't choose people who strive to just salvage their careers. We choose people who love what they do and have shown they want to work in their career during the 20s.

Jenny
09-07-2005, 02:54 PM
Okay. However. I am entering my first year. I have no experience, volunteer or otherwise, in law. Nobody - including people that hire students and lawyers - seems to think that will be the end of me. My orientation leader was a "mature candidate" (nearly thirty) and she got one of the very coveted jobs for summer - her background, before law school was in IT and before that, music. It wasn't because of years of law experience. I'm not going to tell you your hiring criteria, but some people evidently think that you in fact, CAN choose a new field at thirty and build a career and niche for yourself. Just saying.

xdamage
09-07-2005, 03:53 PM
Okay. However. I am entering my first year. I have no experience, volunteer or otherwise, in law. Nobody - including people that hire students and lawyers - seems to think that will be the end of me. My orientation leader was a "mature candidate" (nearly thirty) and she got one of the very coveted jobs for summer - her background, before law school was in IT and before that, music. It wasn't because of years of law experience. I'm not going to tell you your hiring criteria, but some people evidently think that you in fact, CAN choose a new field at thirty and build a career and niche for yourself. Just saying.

Well if you can do it (and better late then never of course) then of course I wish you well at it and hope the new career goes well.

Obviously some people can pull the rabbit out of the hat later but its just gets harder to catch up with those who start later.

Nicolina
09-10-2005, 10:55 PM
OK.

Happily, my dad does not frequent strip clubs. If he did, he might have had more of an objection to my being a dancer. (He told me once that he didn't like clubs because he realized immediately upon entry that it was the women, not the men, who were in control.)

My parents, who tend toward radical, bragged about their stripper daughter to friends who they thought might find it a "courageous" choice. But it was always a little awkward for me to talk to them about it....

Doc, you rock. I'm pretty sure that any daughters you have would never consider such a dubious career choice. :)

yoda57us
09-11-2005, 07:23 AM
OK.

Happily, my dad does not frequent strip clubs. If he did, he might have had more of an objection to my being a dancer. (He told me once that he didn't like clubs because he realized immediately upon entry that it was the women, not the men, who were in control.)


Nic, Your dad is a very wise man. I figured out who was really in control many years ago. This is the reason why, if my daughter chose to dance, for whatever reason, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I would support her knowing that a smart woman with a good head on her shoulders can use the industry to achieve her financial goals without becoming a victim.

SportsWriter2
09-11-2005, 11:56 AM
Nic, Your dad is a very wise man. I figured out who was really in control many years ago. This is the reason why, if my daughter chose to dance, for whatever reason, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I would support her knowing that a smart woman with a good head on her shoulders can use the industry to achieve her financial goals without becoming a victim.

Well said, Yoda. I couldn't agree more.

Mastridonicus
09-11-2005, 12:40 PM
mmmm blue ballers daughters to buy dances from.....
this could be a unique experience.

The question should be,

"What if you're daughter showed up in NATO/ TR/ MW's HG OTC?"

SportsWriter2
09-11-2005, 12:54 PM
The question should be,

"What if you're daughter showed up in NATO/ TR/ MW's HG OTC?"

Well, at least she would have had the Fuck of Her Life, but I'd hope she did it for free, because I wouldn't want a ho for a daughter. :D

yoda57us
09-11-2005, 01:34 PM
mmmm blue ballers daughters to buy dances from.....
this could be a unique experience.

The question should be,

"What if you're daughter showed up in NATO/ TR/ MW's HG OTC?"

Well Mast, the wonderful thing about anonymity is that it's anonymous....

Katrine
09-11-2005, 04:22 PM
My parents also gave me money for college, it wasn't enough. They will give any student as many credit cards as they like. Debt racks up, and I am not even a big spender, overindulgent shopper, wearer of Prada tampons, etc.....

I wanted to graduate debt-free and have a clean financial slate so I wouldn't have to spend years and years paying off my old debts at the multiple day jobs I've had.

Chances are X, you aren't sending her enough money to cover all of her expenses but she doesn't tell you because she does not want to dissapoint you. I saw a lot of that.

There were no stripclubs in Soviet Union. As far as my parents understanding, girls who strip are whores and am embarassment to the family. They were ok with me being a waitress in a strip club though after lots of arguement and debate. But that's an entirely different job.....

Nicolina
09-11-2005, 05:37 PM
Nic, Your dad is a very wise man.


That's true, yoda. He is. :)


I figured out who was really in control many years ago. This is the reason why, if my daughter chose to dance, for whatever reason, I wouldn't be thrilled, but I would support her knowing that a smart woman with a good head on her shoulders can use the industry to achieve her financial goals without becoming a victim.

......In fact, I think he was making this point exactly during that conversation, which we had when I'd been dancing for a couple of years.


HOWEVER. I must be honest here. Although I consider myself "a smart woman with a good head on her shoulders," and would never describe myself as a "victim," I cannot say that I managed to avoid all the pitfalls of the industry, or that I emerged entirely unscathed. In other words, there are some things in my checkered past that....well, frankly, I'd rather die than tell my Daddy about (and my family is notorious for having inappropriate sexual conversations...) Nor did I use the industry to "achieve my financial goals" (not that I ever really had any....money was never really the primary motivation for my involvement in the sex industry.)

I would venture to say, in support of x, that I believe that the time I spent dancing largely represents a "waste" of my intellectual abilities.

Having spent most of my twenties fucking around, going to school intermittently, and supporting myself as a dancer and itinerant seasonal field tech (in wildlife biology), I now find myself struggling to finish my B.S. at an age when most people in my field of study are working on their PhD's or post-docs, and have already made some significant contributions to research. Even though I am in biology, not physics, I do feel that I am not as smart as I used to be, and I'm not sure that I'm capable of doing the same kind of rigorous intellectual/scientific work that I could have done in my twenties. Maybe it's all those braincells I murdered during my youthful exploits. Maybe you just continually lose a little energy and intensity each year as life conspires to beat you down. Or maybe I was never really all that smart to begin with. But to sum up, I am not in denial about the fact that my intellect could have been put to some better use than coming up with a hot new stripper look or figuring out how to sell more lap dances.

Frankly, I never applied my intellect to my job as a dancer anyway (though I'm sure there are some smart women who do). I went to work, got buzzed, did my job, and accepted the money they gave me without giving any of it much thought. In fact, one of the things I appreciated most about being a dancer was that my brain was my own to do with as I pleased. If I wanted to read Richard Feynman's QED one week, and Anna Karenina the next, spend the week after that watching inane sitcoms, and the next week writing furiously during all my waking hours.....it was all good.

As a result, I don't regret the time I spent as a dancer. It really did allow me explore my intellectual curiosity as I saw fit. The freedom came at a price, of course, but it's one I can live with. And if I ever get off my ass and transform the massive reams of raw writing I produced during my dancing days into something that has some artistic value, then I will feel that, while I may have squandered some of my intellect, I did NOT squander my talent. Because this will remain a possibility as long as I am alive, I don't think I'll ever feel bitter or regretful about my checkered past.


Maybe what I'm trying to say is this: If your brilliant, beautiful daughter has the desire and ability to be a great physicist or a successful engineer, encourage her NOT to be a dancer.

If, however, your brilliant and beautiful daughter has the desire and ability to be a real writer or a great artist, let her do her own thing, even if it involves some exploits you'd rather not ever know anything about.

SportsWriter2
09-11-2005, 06:15 PM
Why does it have to be either or? I've known young nurses, accountants, engineers and even a teacher who led normal lives, then drove somewhere beyond their social network to dance. Some of them were hot little freaks who needed the escape, and they got a rush from the danger of being recognized.

yoda57us
09-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Nic: Great post. I appreciate your honesty. I don't think anyone comes through a dancing career totally unscathed. By the same token I think that every life experience teaches you something either about yourself, about other people or both. I know enough retired dancers to know that the effects can be both negative and/or positive. I’m a big believer in the “whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” approach to the harsh realities of life.

My brilliant and beautiful daughter (obviously she takes after me) wants to study psychology next year which surprises me not one bit since she's been telling people (mostly me) what's wrong with them since she was about eleven. I don't foresee her winding up in a strip club-this whole thread is really more of a hypothetical exercise to me than anything else. My point has been that if it happens, while I won't encourage it, I will deal with it.

Jenny
09-11-2005, 07:19 PM
Thank you Nic,
I hate this myth that all dancers are drugged out trailer trash - but I'm not too fond of the counter myth - that we are wildly savvy business women putting ourselves through med school. (Because, honestly, it makes me realize that most dancers really are closer to the former.) I think there could be a little something wrong with all of us for WANTING to do this in the first place. Like, I'm definitely the only one of my friends that this occurred to. I also think that characterizing the dancer/customer relationship the way it has been characterized (like the dancer is in control) is a little naive - particularly considering most of the content of this board.

evan_essence
09-12-2005, 06:01 AM
Shoot, I'm out there recruiting your daughters right now with the allure of the glitz, glamour, money, free time, drugs and hot sex. Oh, and the art of dancing. Let's not forget that. I get a commission for every soul I convert. Well, not so much commission per se, but the lifetime length of my physical appeal as a stripper is extended by one week for each convert. You see, I have this evil side that keeps emerging in spite of all my attempts to quash it.

Now seriously, the main motivation for me has always been the money, not the intellectual stimulation from conversation with undiscovered Einsteins or thinking of ingenius ways to keep my stuff from being stolen. And the flexibility of working less than a five-day week is helpful to my personal situation.

Besides, I just finished a weekend at a part-time job producing website content. Good Gawd. I thought I might want a job there fulltime; now I'm not so sure. I worked longer, harder and, of course, for less pay - all with more backache from sitting at an ergonomically-incorrect work station cursing outdated computer software than dancing would have given me. And I still had to put up with a fair amount of idiocy, like shooing off a cleaning crew guy who was looking at porn on an office computer I needed to use for a project. I should file a non-NATO NATO report on that. Sheeesh, you'd think I could get away from the subject at a real office, but nooo.

-Ev

xdamage
09-12-2005, 09:15 AM
Nicolina, great reply, well balanced.

The thing about people is that our natural tendency is to do what water does when presented with a downhill option, given a set of choices, we tend to take the path of least resistance. It takes quite a bit of will power (and often the support of others) to defer short term gains for long term gains. Of course people do choose to work, but in general we do it because there is a near term benefit (e.g., money in our immediate future) and because there is a near term pains to not doing so. Nobody likes to hear this about themselves, but basically our nature is to seek pleasure, and avoid pain/stress.

Some fields are stressful, possibly for years before there is a pay off.

While there is nothing particularly wrong or unusual in seeking short term benefits, it's the rare person who has the will power and drive to defer short term benefits for long term ones. One thing is easy and not particularly note worthy, the other can in some rare cases result in an individual who does more than ingest the works of others, but also contributes something unique/original. It may well be my daughter ends up like most of us, choosing the path of least resistance in life, but I'm sure as hell going to encourage her to do more while she is young.

p.s. While people like to pull exceptions out of their hat, most of the Engineers I know agree that they did 2-3x the work in their 20s that do now that they are late 30s, early 40s. It's not just partying, it's just genetically our brains and bodies slow, plus by late 30s early 40s most have kids, and spouses which further distract them from focusing on work. Of course someone in their 20s or teens can't conceive that their brains and bodies will be different by the time they are in their late 30s or early 40s. They know it of course from everything they see around them, but think it won't happen to them. The advantage that someone in their 30s to 40s has in a professional field is they have experience, they have developed what is called 'crystalline' memory, which is to say they know certain aspects of their job as second nature because they have been doing it for such a long time. They don't have to expend the effort on the crystalline skills so they are free to use what remaining attention/energy they have to focus on new problems. For the newbie starting late in the field, they have neither the crystalline memories, nor do they have the focus/energy they use to have when they were young.

Some fields you have to choose, play now pay later, or pay now play later in life.

All Good Things
09-12-2005, 10:15 PM
And if I ever get off my ass and transform the massive reams of raw writing I produced during my dancing days into something that has some artistic value, then I will feel that, while I may have squandered some of my intellect, I did NOT squander my talent.

Sorry, you lost me at "get off my ass." You've always known what your ass does to me, baby, so don't blame me. ;)

This notion that there is greater intellectual capacity at younger ages is nonsense; the thread has been hijacked by physics envy. Sure, engineers and physicists make their greatest contributions when younger because they are less inhibited by accepted constructs and approaches, more driven by peer pressure and jealousy and damn far more likely to put in absurd hours while the rest of the world is actually living life (incidentally, the fact that their field doesn't require them to actually know much about life or how people live is the reason this youthful intensity has any payoff at all). Even then, there is usually only one or two great years in science or math after which everything collapses. Or the hopeless library dweller becomes increasingly expert in some absurdly obscure field like 12-dimensional string theory of ablated space that only six people in the world understand and nobody cares about. Then some other hopeless library dweeb refutes the whole damn approach a few years later. Now that is wasted intellect.

The fact is that this "youth-driven intellect" fails in many other important fields that require life experience or knowledge, which is why judges, lawyers, physicians, historians, philosophers, etc. make their best contributions later in life, while writers -- a related field -- risk a rapid flameout if they rise too quickly and cannot sustain their talent. Or, worse, they run out of things to write about. That will not happen to you. ;)

[Part II continued below]

All Good Things
09-12-2005, 10:27 PM
[Continued]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, the intelligent, even brilliant dancers I've known in life are the thoroughbreds of the species. If they choose to take time off to pursue a youth-centric physical career, much like a smart professional athlete does before moving on to law school, more power to them. (The dark side comparison here holds as well -- think of how many professional athletes have lots of energy, but are young and inexperienced, so are prone to flame out quickly when seduced by the easy money, fame or attention. The smart athletes eventually work through this.)

You're an example of a racehorse with a very special pedigree. Writer, philosopher, humanist, altruist, biologist. Human experience is far more vital to your best destiny. Your fate was not to be a hopeless library dweeb.

Well, ok, maybe a dweeb with a great ass. }:D

Katrine
09-12-2005, 11:52 PM
As much as I really, really want to work with your thoroughbred analogy TOO, most of the dancers I've worked with have been closer related to the mule, and not the intelligent breed of mule either. ;)

Perhaps the standards in the clubs you frequent are very high? That would be nice.....