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Jenny
08-29-2005, 03:07 PM
Small point here as well - enjoyment doesn't constitute consent. Even if he did enjoy (and in my book that is a big, big if - that is he "enjoyed" it enough to maintain an erection, perhaps against his will) that doesn't make it any more consensual. I have this funny idea that the only thing that constitutes "consent" is... well, consenting. I don't know if, in the event that I was sexually assaulted and chose to file charges, I would want my vaginal secretions to be deemed a greater indicator of my consent than me simply saying "yes", "no" or some variation of those two words. If he were penetrated anally groaned in such a way that the rapist may infer consent, does that make it a consensual encounter? I think not.

MinahSky
08-29-2005, 03:28 PM
The minute that she/they touched him in any way/shape or form without his consent or with him saying "No", it was a sexual crime. The way I see it, they would be guilty at the very least of sexual battery.

venusofwillendorf
08-29-2005, 07:13 PM
ways men can be raped (at least in some states, the laws vary) without acheiving erection:

via anal penetration
being forced to have the phallus stimulated orally
have a hollow dildo or ppa placed over the phallus and then being used for sexual intercourse
having an erection rod placed in the urethra, causing the non-erect phallus to remain stiff enough to be used for penetration
one accomplice holding the phallus between two vertical fingers in such a manner as the stiffness of the fingers can be used to facilitate penetration into the orifice of another accomplice
inserting a speculum or other dilating device into the vagina (or anus), then inserting the flaccid phallus

also, a man with penile implants used to treat erectile dysfunction could be forced to have an erection quite easily, by working the pump.

threlayer
08-30-2005, 09:01 AM
Viagra does not make a man want to have sex nor does it make the penis get erect. Viagra is not an afrodisiac. It only helps blood flow faster into than out of the penis WHILE IT IS BEING STIMULATED by some other means. (At least in my experience - with my gf I no longer need it and when I used it before, about 30 mg lasted 2 days.)

I say having four sets of fingers and two mouths work on a penis, even with a threat, can make a guy hard, but it may not make him go to climax. What it did in this case is not provable by the information released so far.

Gabe
08-30-2005, 04:16 PM
Viagra does not make a man want to have sex nor does it make the penis get erect. Viagra is not an afrodisiac. It only helps blood flow into fater than out of the penis WHILE IT IS BEING STIMULATED by some other means.

I say having four sets of fingers and two mouths work on a penis, even with a threat, can make a guy hard, but it may not make him go to climax. What it did in this case is not provable by the information released so far.

I would like to dispute that....
Viagra has a tendancy to auto erect someone.
Often times, staying erect after the business has been handled.

Bridgette
08-30-2005, 05:17 PM
Just for the record, I've many times said that "I don't care what anyone thinks" and every time I said it, I was bullshitting. Humans are social animals and yes, we do care what the other humans we interact with think - which is precisely why we angrily exclaim "I don't care you think"... if we really didn't care we wouldn't even bother to say so.
Yeah, I'm really terribly concerned with what some anonymous dude on a message board says. LOL!


And also for the record, please don't confuse my hypothetical "what if someone responds by" with my own opinion of your veracity, since my whole point is that telling somone who says they have been raped that they haven't been raped is wrong.
And I think you are wrong. Nothing's changed.

Amethyst
08-30-2005, 05:51 PM
Just want to point out that when LITTLE BOYS and boys in the pre-teen - early-teen category have been raped, most have had erections and have ejaculated. But I guess since they had erections, it wasn't really rape. *rolls eyes*

Both erections and ejaculation are physiological responses. Anything can "set them off", even when the kid, or in this case, the man, is scared shitless.

Women also expand and produce lubricant when being raped. It's the bodies response to being invaded, not b/c the woman is sexually stimulated, right?

Jenny
08-30-2005, 06:23 PM
^^^
Precisely. Some women do auto-lubricate and some don't. That is one reason why some women suffer more vaginal damage than others during forced intercourse. Really, to extend this contention to women (the whole his physiological reaction was similar to indications of enjoyment, therefore his consent isn't an issue) would be "her words said no, but her vaginal secretions said yes." It is not okay, under any circumstance, to force yourself on someone. Just because a guy has an erection doesn't make him public property.

Analogy - I sit on guy's laps, move around to sexually arouse them, blow in their ears and I still bloody well still expect them to not touch me any place I have not specifically deemed okay - the fact that I appear to be enjoying myself is completely irrelevent. What I have ACTUALLY CONSENTED to is what is at issue.

venusofwillendorf
08-30-2005, 08:02 PM
tangent issue-
little boys being raped experience erection and ejaculation? i was under the impression that this isn't possible before puberty. or are you talking about 13 and 14 year olds?

Rhiannon
08-30-2005, 08:21 PM
^It certainly IS possible before puberty. Imagine my surprise when my Son, who was FIVE at the time, woke up with an erection. I was freaking out more than he was, and he was pretty bad. I had to call my then father-in-law and have him tell me that it was normal.

So yeah, it does happen.. And it happens young.

LoveSexMoney
08-30-2005, 08:26 PM
puberty starts within the body before there are any visible signs. I started getting pubes at 10. So for me, puberty was probably starting at, what, 9?

aussiepunkshocker
08-31-2005, 02:12 AM
Fuck, I can't belive some of the responses to this post! It's fucking sad that male rape is still misunderstood and ridiculed in this day and age! One of the biggest problems male rape victims have to face is that they do get it up when they're terrified - that's a fact. yeah really fucking funny.

stant
08-31-2005, 05:50 AM
...
having an erection rod placed in the urethra, causing the non-erect phallus to remain stiff enough to be used for penetration....
Never thought of this one. Not to make a joke out of a serious topic, but I'd say this qualifies as a double penetration of sorts. YOUCHHHHH that sounds painful.

Mr Hyde
08-31-2005, 06:44 AM
An erection while scared shitless.... Is this possible? of course.

come on guys... for all of you who stated "Well, I'm a guy, and I know this couldn't happen", I ask you this: ever had morning wood? ever had an erection while sitting at your desk at work? ever had random wood while driving?



Yes but I didn't have a gun at my head at the time. Bad analogy.

Sorry, not believing it.

I've been scared shitless. I've had a gun pointed at my head. I can pretty much guarantee you that getting an erection at that point would not have been possible.

Rhiannon
08-31-2005, 07:35 AM
Fuck, I can't belive some of the responses to this post! It's fucking sad that male rape is still misunderstood and ridiculed in this day and age! One of the biggest problems male rape victims have to face is that they do get it up when they're terrified - that's a fact. yeah really fucking funny.

You and me both, Aussie. If this had been a female raped by 3 males, you all would be readying your torches and pitchforks. Just because a man has a penis, doesn't mean he can only be raped anally.

This is the reason why most abuse against men (by WOMEN) goes unreported. Because the men are ridiculed and thought of as less than masculine. And if it's a case of unwanted sex, people refuse to accept that a man actually *wouldn't* want sex.

If the genders were reversed, it'd be a different story, and you'd all want those 3 rapists dead.

A_Guy
08-31-2005, 09:27 AM
I've been scared shitless. I've had a gun pointed at my head. I can pretty much guarantee you that getting an erection at that point would not have been possible.

::)

and at that point were three women trying to get you off to have sex with you? also a bad analogy

We've all been scared shitless with or without a gun pointed at our head. You can not draw a parallel with your experience and his in this case unless three women were trying to have sex with you. I would bet anything, that if you were in this specific situation, you just may obtain an erection.

It seems the court of public opinion is weighing in here heavily to one side... you better hope that something to this effect (i.e. being raped by a woman/women) never happens to you. there is no reason why anyone would be more sympathetic in your case.

regardless if this guy is telling the truth or not, I just hope the judge and jury base their decision on the facts presented and not the general opinion "come ooooonnnnn. he's a guy!":censored:



You and me both, Aussie. If this had been a female raped by 3 males, you all would be readying your torches and pitchforks. Just because a man has a penis, doesn't mean he can only be raped anally.

This is the reason why most abuse against men (by WOMEN) goes unreported. Because the men are ridiculed and thought of as less than masculine. And if it's a case of unwanted sex, people refuse to accept that a man actually *wouldn't* want sex.

If the genders were reversed, it'd be a different story, and you'd all want those 3 rapists dead.

thank you :worship::-*

stant
08-31-2005, 09:46 AM
The one thing that really bugs me about this article is this statement:

"They asked him for directions to the Savoy Hotel and he got into the car to show them the way."

Huh? He got in to show them the way? Say what? Whatever happened to, "take a left at the second barn, but if the dog's a chiuhaua you've gone too far...."

Then after having a drink, he does it again? This may be a major cultural assumption on my part. The article does mention that they "convinced to have a drink", however maybe "asking for directions" is some coy way of picking up a guy in South Africa. I'd have thought the article would say something like that the women said "get in and show us...", but it doesnt. Smells hinky to me.

OK, VERY different story written by another reporter:
http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1760586,00.html

This one is quite believable.

dlabtot
08-31-2005, 10:21 AM
^^^ because as we all know, once you get into someone's car, go up to someone's hotel room, smile at someone, dress sexy, or kiss someone, you forfeit any right to later say that, no, you don't wan to have sex with them...

Jenny
08-31-2005, 10:28 AM
Stant - that story was very different? It seemed pretty much the same to me. Anyway - yeah, he got in the car and had a few drinks with a couple of girls. He probably didn't find three girls looking for hotels to crawl to be that threatening. I wouldn't. I doubt anyone here would think that because three girls invite you for a drink that they are going to pull a gun on you and rape you. Agreeing to join people - yea, even strangers - for a drink is not giving them licence to your body.

venusofwillendorf
08-31-2005, 06:30 PM
people make bad decisions all the time. that doesn't mean they should be raped, or have forfeited their right to refuse consent.
for example:

a 12 year old sees britney spears on tv and now sneaks off to the mall to buy a bustiere and wears it around town.
a naive girl new to the city, having lived in a small town all her life, accepts a ride with a strange man.
and old woman accepts a strange man's offer to help her outside to her car.
a young man accepts a ride from an older man whom he does not know.

have any of these people already forfeited their right to say no? i think the real issue here is that many of us are not ready to believe that men can be victimized by women.

threlayer
08-31-2005, 06:50 PM
^^^ because as we all know, once you get into someone's car, go up to someone's hotel room, smile at someone, dress sexy, or kiss someone, you forfeit any right to later say that, no, you don't wan[t] to have sex with them...

Legally that is just wrong and is a dangerous attitude. A person can say 'NO' (or somehow espress 'no') at almost any point in the seduction sequence and the other is suposed to stop right there. I don't know where it stops before permission has legally irrevocably been granted. Nor do I know how it is proveable in court, but is is possible to believe things are going just fine and then get in huge trouble. It is a highly troublesome issue in so many regards. Much, much better to know you can trust your partner - respect, affection, etc.

Rhiannon
08-31-2005, 06:51 PM
i think the real issue here is that many of us are not ready to believe that men can be victimized by women.

Whether or not people are ready to believe it, these things do happen. And they happen every single day, in one form or another. Honestly, not acknowledging it is ignorant.

There would be a vast array of shitstorms going on here if this had been posted about a woman, and there were the same responses (ie., "She liked it!")

And turning a blind eye, and cracking jokes while laughing it off wouldn't go over real well if it was the other way around either.

amylynnej
08-31-2005, 07:01 PM
I fully support what rhiannon says. and most of these posts are just stupid and asinine. Think before you type and post.

stant
09-01-2005, 12:19 AM
...
have any of these people already forfeited their right to say no?
Of course not. I don't believe anyone here implied as much.

i think the real issue here is that many of us are not ready to believe that men can be victimized by women.Again, this is not the issue. Although I tend to believe the story based on the second article, other's here simply don't believe his story. No one said men can't be raped.

Nor do I know how it is proveable in court..Like any crime, it has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt from evidence presented at trial. Evidence would presumably include his testimony, trace evidence and testimony of CSI types, witness at any of the locations (hotels, pickup, alleged rape location). By far the most important task for a jury will be to determine his credibility. (In the US...) Will ALL 12 people believe his story? Is there any evidence to corroborate his story? Is his courtroom testimony consitent with prior statements he has made about the alleged attack? How do the assailants size up against him? Are these three angry looking butch ass biotches vs. one scrawny hard up scared little dude? Jury gets to take all of this into account.

That's all people are doing here. Much like the Scott Peterson case, we're doing some armchair jury guessing based on one short article. This is not some deep gender-bias sociological issue. Would a man lie about a gang rape? Yes. Would a woman? Yes. Tawana Brawley claimed that three police officers gang raped her, then later admitted the entire story was a fabrication. It happens. Is it more difficult to believe that three woman could arouse a 30 year old man enough to maintain an erection at gunpoint and gang rape him....or that three men could commit the same crime against a woman? I think the answer is obvious. More difficult to believe does not mean he's lying. It's just one factor. Realizing this is a very unusual case does not make a person an evil misandrist.
http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/newsmakers/tawana/

evan_essence
09-01-2005, 07:38 AM
Try this version:

She got in the car with three strange men and had drinks with them. And THEN they raped her at gunpoint. And then she went home before filing a police report. LOL yeah right.

One story immediately evokes credibility and sympathy (and frequently, misandry) while the other evokes instantaneous doubt, ridicule and scorn. Funny how that works, isn't it?Well, you're dangerously close to implying that the opposite story would evoke 100 percent sympathy. I suspect it would have a similar percentage of doubters as the original, relying on parallel objections. Does that make it right? No. But I hope that we can stay away from having to imply that women rape victims don't struggle with the same disbelief from the public in order to argue that such disbelief is unwarranted for this male.


Of course it is his fault, he is the man - must have been what he was wearing!

(With this crowd, if he had shot them in the head in retribution or self-defense - he surely would be a serial killer of women.)Well, let's emphasize the fact that "this crowd," assuming you mean the doubters, has been both men and women, and I believe the majority of doubting posts here have been men claiming an erection would be unlikely. And of course, women have been among the believers. I realize you know that and it's obvious to anyone reading the entire thread carefully, but a few people could misconstrue a vague term like "this crowd" to implicate only the women of SW.


There would be a vast array of shitstorms going on here if this had been posted about a woman, and there were the same responses (ie., "She liked it!") True, but I think this thread qualifies as an equitable shitstorm. Different gender, similar arguments.

-Ev

dlabtot
09-01-2005, 10:56 AM
Legally that is just wrong and is a dangerous attitude. A person can say 'NO' (or somehow espress 'no') at almost any point in the seduction sequence and the other is suposed to stop right there. I don't know where it stops before permission has legally irrevocably been granted. Nor do I know how it is proveable in court, but is is possible to believe things are going just fine and then get in huge trouble. It is a highly troublesome issue in so many regards. Much, much better to know you can trust your partner - respect, affection, etc.

Perhaps SW needs a 'sarcasm' tag... I thought my post was obvious sarcasm, but I guess not....

threlayer
09-02-2005, 12:05 PM
I'm sorry DL. I can take a hint, but it has to be given to me 5-6 times.

Ciara
09-02-2005, 12:22 PM
This is why ALL victims of rape have problems coming forward. If it was a woman, would you say the same? Men get beaten and raped just like women do. They have an even harder time reporting it.

I agree with Minah on this one. If it was a woman with three guys everyone would be up in arms about finding the rapistsinstead of making fun of the woman saying 'oh her husband must have caught her cheating on him and she needed an alibi." Men can get raped because there are ways to get an erection out of a them even if there is a gun to thier head, when an erection is just nitrous oxide flooding the penis and the penis muscles relaxing... (thank the discovery channel for that little tid bit...lol)

I'm going to stop here before I get on to much of a rant because I know this is only my opinion and i don't want to offend anyone here. But please think of what the response on this message board would be like if the genders were revered.

Mr Hyde
09-04-2005, 09:34 AM
::)

and at that point were three women trying to get you off to have sex with you? also a bad analogy

We've all been scared shitless with or without a gun pointed at our head. You can not draw a parallel with your experience and his in this case unless three women were trying to have sex with you. I would bet anything, that if you were in this specific situation, you just may obtain an erection.

It seems the court of public opinion is weighing in here heavily to one side... you better hope that something to this effect (i.e. being raped by a woman/women) never happens to you. there is no reason why anyone would be more sympathetic in your case.

regardless if this guy is telling the truth or not, I just hope the judge and jury base their decision on the facts presented and not the general opinion "come ooooonnnnn. he's a guy!":censored:




thank you :worship::-*

I was being robbed. It was all I could do to keep from shitting myself. Hard-on? I don't think so. Sorry, this could not have happened.

Mr Hyde
09-04-2005, 09:37 AM
hold on here....let's review the facts-

Three women convince a man to go get drinks with them, he repeatedly goes with them to give them directions, all willingly, and then at the end of all of this, they pull a gun on the guy and somehow force en erection out of him, and then all three of them use that erection for their pleasure.

Yeah. Right.

Deogol
09-04-2005, 09:48 AM
hold on here....let's review the facts-

Three women convince a man to go get drinks with them, he repeatedly goes with them to give them directions, all willingly, and then at the end of all of this, they pull a gun on the guy and somehow force en erection out of him, and then all three of them use that erection for their pleasure.

Yeah. Right.

Those are not the facts. You need to re-read the article in the links.

Mr Hyde
09-04-2005, 12:43 PM
Those are not the facts. You need to re-read the article in the links.

OK, from the article-


Nothnagel said that on Saturday night the man was walking through Roodepoort when the women pulled up next to him in their maroon BMW.

They asked him for directions to the Savoy Hotel and he got into the car to show them the way.

At the hotel the women persuaded him to join them for a drink, before asking him for directions to yet another hotel. top.DisplayAds('Pos7',2,283);<!-- -->Ads_kid=0;Ads_bid=0;Ads_xl=0;Ads_yl=0;Ads_xp='';Ad s_yp='';Ads_opt=0;Ads_wrd='';Ads_prf='';Ads_par='' ;Ads_cnturl='';Ads_sec=0;function Ads_PopUp() {} http://e.as-eu.falkag.net/dat/bgf/200508/10/dd-august-220x220%286%29.gif (http://red.as-eu.falkag.net/red?cmd=url&flg=0&&rdm=28274409&dlv=631,17577,114306,136454,696104&kid=136454&chw=9136454-&tcs=&bls3=110000B&bls4=010002114302&ucl=111111A&uid=1&dmn=.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com&scx=800&scy=600&scc=32&jav=1&sta=,,,1,,,,,,,0,5,0,27288,27228,14659,380,539&iid=114306&bid=696104&dat=http%3A//www.directquote.co.za/emailquote.asp%3Fvdn%3D5925%26tel%3D0860%252010%25 2037%252063)http://red.as-eu.falkag.net/dat/bgf/trpix.gif?&rdm=28274409&dlv=631,17577,114306,136454,696104&kid=136454&chw=9136454-&tcs=&bls3=110000B&bls4=010002114302&ucl=111111A&uid=1&dmn=.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com&scx=800&scy=600&scc=32&jav=1&sta=,,,1,,,,,,,0,5,0,27288,27228,14659,380,539&iid=114306&bid=696104


While on the road to the Station Hotel the women suddenly changed direction and drove to a dark and empty field near the Durban Deep mine.

"One woman produced a firearm and held the man at gunpoint," Nothnagel said.

"The women got undressed and all three took turns to have intercourse with him."

The man was then ordered back into the car and dropped off along Main Reef Road

So, he willingly got in their car after being asked for directions, he went and got drinks with them, got back in their car to give them directions again, whereupon they showed him a gun, forced an erection out of him, and then used it for their own pleasure.

And that's different from my original statement...how?

Again, this is just not believable.

threlayer
09-04-2005, 01:14 PM
I was being robbed. It was all I could do to keep from shitting myself. Hard-on? I don't think so. Sorry, this could not have happened.

Scared by three women wanting sex from you after a few drinks and conversation? Or surprised by some drugged-up mugger in a dark alley?

We all can think of anecdotes to prove one thing or another, but not to prove something we don't understand and that happened to someone else.It's possible in some circumstances and by some guys, but not you in your circumstance.

Mr Hyde
09-04-2005, 02:05 PM
perhaps...I just can't see it. Has there been any research into the topic of erectile function in men under physical threat?

I have a penis. I pretty much know how they work. Sorry, I just can't see it.

A_Guy
09-05-2005, 02:49 PM
I was being robbed. It was all I could do to keep from shitting myself. Hard-on? I don't think so. Sorry, this could not have happened.

I reiterate:


We've all been scared shitless with or without a gun pointed at our head. You can not draw a parallel with your experience and his in this case unless three women were trying to have sex with you. I would bet anything, that if you were in this specific situation, you just may obtain an erection.

.....

Mr Hyde
09-14-2005, 01:11 PM
yeah, if I wanted to have sex with them. Of course, later I might regret having done it for some reason and then concocted a story to cover my ass.

LilSweetVixen
09-14-2005, 09:45 PM
Americans are once again living in a plastic bubble. This is South Africa we're talking about: Jo-Burg, one of the AIDS capitals of the entire world and probably the birthplace of HIV. Not every guy is gonna wander around having unprotected sex with random women or being thrilled about being accosted. Plus he already hung out with and shared drinks with with three women so if he wanted to lie to his wife why would he admit to having done that in the first place? That would still make him look bad to her, so there'd be no point in adding a "fake" rape story. As for the erection, if someone's drunk it's easier for them to be seduced and aroused, without being that conscious or nervous about a gun. That's still rape because then the person was in a submerged frame of mind. Lastly, in a third world country guys might lose respect for getting raped and people might joke about it. He might even lose respect from his wife even if it's true. So what are we left with? What would it afford him to make this up? Not his marriage, his health, or his reputation. So I think he's telling the truth.

lenny_nero
09-15-2005, 12:16 PM
perhaps...I just can't see it. Has there been any research into the topic of erectile function in men under physical threat?

I have a penis. I pretty much know how they work. Sorry, I just can't see it.


I have a penis. I pretty much know how it works. But I've found that other people's can do unfathomable things--hell, on these forums I've heard of guys who could get off from a lap dance while wearing pants, which seems completely outlandish to me.

I lose wood if I don't think my partner is into it, or if a candle falls over and I have to jump out of bed to pick it up. So I seriously doubt I'd be able to maintain it during this sort of scenario.

But my johnson is one of many, and they all behave differently. I've learned not to think I know the general case no matter how familiar I am with one instance...

Phedre
09-15-2005, 12:47 PM
Okay so I know you have all been to a porn store (if not you're missing out); haven't you see some of the sleeves they have nowdays. Even if his little buddy didn't want to perform~ there are things that could have stopped him from having an actual choice in the matter. The guy sure could have been raped.

Rape -defined by the Encyclopedia of Sex:
http://www.encyclopedia-of-sex.com/displayarticle47.html

Rape -defined by the Urban Dictionary:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rape

Phedre
09-15-2005, 12:48 PM
That sure doesn't mean he used common sense when he decided to go road tripping with the bitches tho.