View Full Version : Total Devastation.
Vyanka
09-02-2005, 02:05 PM
That whole wording between blacks and whites is really fucked up. They made the black lady sound like a criminal & not a victim in a time of disaster! Um, wow. So sad how the media sounds pretty fucking racist to me. :-\
Bridgette
09-02-2005, 02:08 PM
The nature of this city and it's residents have to be understood. Being black I have an understanding of the mentality of poor blacks. This city is over 2/3's black and in the South, where whites and blacks don't assimilate with each other as much as in the other parts of the country.
Many of these poor blacks hate white people for holding them down, and this intense hostility causes them to devastate their own neighborhoods. They don't react with reason, but with anger and despair. They are trying to survive in a white society whom they feel caused them to be poor.
Plus being a poor city which has a huge, black population, these residents did not have the transportation or financial resources to leave town. The needs of an area like this are more than the city and state have resources to handle.
The mayor has every right to be angry. A white mayor would not be able to handle a city with such a large downtrodden non white population.
9/11 in Manhattan is NOTHING like the problems faced in New Orleans. I respect the mayor of NO far more than Giuliani. Knowing all the problems that exist there and not having the resources and federal support to handle them is wrong. Yes the fact that most of those who stayed behind were black and poor had a lot to do with the slowness of evacuating them.
More people will die or are dead in NO than in 9/11, and the sad thing is that it could have been prevented. Poor black people just don't matter.
OTB, I am glad you got out, and hope you will fare ok over the months NO will be shut down.
I have to agree with the gist of what you're saying here. But I'd add that another cause for the slowness of hauling these people out is that people in other cities most likely don't want to have to deal with them either. New Orleans having the reputation for crime that it does, these people being mostly poor, combined with the fact that crime and poverty go hand in hand, makes it hard for people in other areas to accept them being hauled into their communities by the busload - natural disaster or not, whether they're black white or purple. Add to this the footage of looting and violence being broadcast, and people just don't want to deal with those folks in their cities.
Also, we're talking about tens of thousands of refugees - a nearby city has to have some time to prepare for that. Can't just dump them off in the street - it' cause even more chaos in the welcoming city than it already will. A sudden influx of this many helpless refugees would be a burden on any community.
How much you wanna bet the city of Houston will see a spike in its crime rate this year?
There's alot more to it than just the simple fact they're black and poor.
Bridgette
09-02-2005, 02:15 PM
I would also point out that we don't know where that bread and soda the white people "found" came from. Who's to say they didn't literally find it floating outside the store? And don't yall think if they'd expended the energy to wade through chest-deep sewage, go into the store and steal food, they'd have taken a bit more than bread and soda? I would've. So eager to jump to conclusions, people. Might hold off on pulling the ever-so-tired racist card for a sec.
CuriousJ
09-02-2005, 02:38 PM
I really hope this doesnt turn into a race issue , if I lived there and I had no food or water for my family I would of gone into a store to get me some it doesnt matter what color you are you do what it takes for survival . Everyone is playing the blame game damn humanity get together for once shit ! It was a natural disaster one like we have never seen on a scale this large . Even the reporters are just grabbing information out of the air not having any communication is a bitch . Being negative at this time is just counter productive and not helping anyone .
Casual Observer
09-02-2005, 03:46 PM
Many of these poor blacks hate white people for holding them down, and this intense hostility causes them to devastate their own neighborhoods. They don't react with reason, but with anger and despair. They are trying to survive in a white society whom they feel caused them to be poor.
The per capita income of blacks in NOLA averages $11K; whites don't fare much better at only $31K (national per capita income is over $41K). No question NOLA is/was a poor city, but as for whites holding down blacks, please. Blacks have run most of the city government since the late 1970s. Eddie Jordan's recent racially-motivated hiring scandal in the attorney general's office is a classically tragic example of the self-defeating criminality that permeated every level of NOLA's government. If laying NOLA's socio-economic condition at the feet of whites makes you feel better, well then have at it, but the reality is something altogether different.
Plus being a poor city which has a huge, black population, these residents did not have the transportation or financial resources to leave town. The needs of an area like this are more than the city and state have resources to handle.
This is what's being largely overlooked; people who had the means to leave--technically and financially--did so well in advance. Those lacking those means, white or black, simply didn't leave because they couldn't. That said, there's no small number of criminal opportunists profitting from the chaos of the situation, and that opportunism knows no racial loyalty.
The mayor has every right to be angry. A white mayor would not be able to handle a city with such a large downtrodden non white population.
Huh? The mayor is half of the reason why the situation has deteriorated so badly; his waffling on evacuation orders in the beginning and failure to immediately institute martial law (and the consequent deployment of ANG units) laid the foundation for the lawlessness taking place. Granted, the post-storm condition of the communications system hampered damage assessment considerably, but Nagin is no hero. He can be angry all he wants, but for every finger he points at the governor and GWB, there's three pointing back at him.
How much you wanna bet the city of Houston will see a spike in its crime rate this year?
I wouldn't bet against that myself.
Katrine
09-02-2005, 03:48 PM
^Exactly..
Most of the news stations have stopped referring to people who have been evacuated as "refugees", because people complained. Hell, the people in the situation themselves even complained. That term being applied to them bothered me more than anything.
They really do need to learn how to word things. They're insulting the people they're claiming to help.
What is the problem with using the word "refugee"? It applies to anyone seeking refuge. Is it because of the political connotation? I consider myself to be a refugee, once upon a time as a kid, and am not ashamed of the term.
Rhiannon
09-02-2005, 03:52 PM
Doesn't have to do with politics. It's just a personal opinion. Apparently though, my opinion is shared by those who are in the situation themselves. They have stated over and over again that they are NOT refugees. They are displaced citizens of the US.
I find the term offensive. That's all.
Katrine
09-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Doesn't have to do with politics. It's just a personal opinion. Apparently though, my opinion is shared by those who are in the situation themselves. They have stated over and over again that they are NOT refugees. They are displaced citizens of the US.
I find the term offensive. That's all.
Why are you so offended by it Rhi? I am proud to say that I was a refugee and this country took me and my family in, took care of us when we decided to suddenly leave our homes. Now I am no longer a refugee, and those people will not be refugees forever. "Displaced citizens of the US" just sounds like overly PC-crud. Are all of those people citizens? Living here doesn't make a person a citizen automatically, but you know that.
I know its not the time for debate, but "refugee" is NOT a dirty word, its not a racial slur. I'm offended over the offense, know what I mean? We could go on forever over the semantics. I still love ya girl, just my $.002. Know what REALLY offends you, and WHY. ;)
Rhiannon
09-02-2005, 04:29 PM
I can't really explain why it offends me. It's just a feeling I get. It's not racial, nor is it political.. It just gives me the creeps. But eh.
Anyway.. The words "Displaced citizen of the US" weren't my own. I actually heard the term when a reporter was interviewing someone in New Orleans. They actually prefer the term "evacuee". Probably should've put the whole thing in quotes or found a link or something. But, I'm already doing 10 things all at once. Heh.
Love ya too girl.. I'm not looking to get into an argument either. And I wish I could tell you why I'm offended at the term.
I know Nagin is no hero. I don't believe any mayor who is caught in the midst of a catastrophe is. He is simply overwhelmed. The mainstream news has not told you all of the efforts the city bosses were trying to implement to get the people out. They ran into a lot of red tape. For example, he was trying to get all the school buses to be used for evacuation purposes, and that ran into a snag. The mayor and his people know and understand the conditions and mindset of the NO residents, and knew what kind of problems were going to occur. They asked for backup immediately, knowing they did not have the manpower to rescue people, and protect property with their available resources. The people on the outside who needed to act instantly reacted too slowly, and failed to respond to the city's requests. This is not the first time the city leaders encountered resistance in dealing with the unique needs a city like this has, but by far it is the most serious.
Go to the NO paper, The Times Picayune website, and read more detail of the problems from a local perspective.
The displaced people don't understand all the red tape city leaders have to go through to run a city like NO.
Many of the police knowing the danger they face dealing with inner city riot conditions chose to not risk their lives taking on known gang members and thugs, and many walked off the job. A city leader can only do so much when his subordinates refuse to take direction, and choose their lives over their jobs. Hell, I wouldn't risk my life on the streets if I were a cop under those conditions either.
Bridgette, I agree that having to instantly find places able and willing to house mass amounts of inner city residents, when crime has always been rampant in their city does make people hesitant.
And sure Houston will see an upsurge in crime. The crime there can't stand much more of a boost anyway.
As far as looting goes, I agree that if any of us were there, along with getting food, water, and toiletries, if we had the opportunity to "shop" for free without fear of arrest, with hundreds of other residents for expensive items that could be easily carried, at Saks and jewelry stores for example, we would have done so too. Hell, the cops were "shopping" with their carts at the Super Wal Mart, weren't they? The cops knew they were outnumbered. It's not like in the movies where 2 cops can take on dozens of people with no backup. The cops boarded up the Sports Authority store and confiscated the guns, and the looters tore down the boards and stole all the knives. How can regular city protectors combat that kind of action?
The reason I reference race in this issue, is that this area is heavily black. Sure the whites stole too, but the white population there is miniscule in comparison to the black one.
I hate to see my race on TV breaking the law blatantly, and I don't think in this case the on site media was making this a black issue. Most of the population is black there, that's all. This situation needed to be handled quickly and carefully. The city leaders knew that, didn't they? They deal with high crime rates on a daily basis. They just couldn't get the outside leaders to react to what they requested when they requested it.
sol_de_pr2
09-02-2005, 06:13 PM
I'm really glad that you're OK. My thoughts are with you :hug:
threlayer
09-02-2005, 06:42 PM
Thw whole city and maybe state was in absolute denial that is could be DESTROYED.They lived with it for years and years, knowing intellectually that someday it would happen. But that knowledge never sunk into their senses because it would have erased their complacency. And whenit did finally happen, they were not only unprepared but they delayed critical decisions when finally a realistic sense of doom overcame their love of their comfort. Reality always wins out.
SW Siren
09-02-2005, 07:11 PM
if you are on the eastcoast and interested in if or how the government shares the blame for NOLA check out your local ABC channel right now !
and if you are interested in if race played a part in why the relief for the victims in NOLA has been sooooo slow check out tonights edition of Nightline, also on ABC.
Amethyst
09-02-2005, 09:23 PM
I would also point out that we don't know where that bread and soda the white people "found" came from. Who's to say they didn't literally find it floating outside the store? And don't yall think if they'd expended the energy to wade through chest-deep sewage, go into the store and steal food, they'd have taken a bit more than bread and soda? I would've. So eager to jump to conclusions, people. Might hold off on pulling the ever-so-tired racist card for a sec.
First, the victims of Katrina are NOT refugees. They are AMERICAN VICTIMS. Refugees are people displaced outside of their country of nationality or habitual residence who fear persecution from their home country. Again, these are American citizens, so people need to cease referring to them as refugees. It's not that "refugee" is a slur. It's that it serves as a disconnect from other Americans. Second, how do YOU know the media wasn't jumping to the conclusion that the Black kid didn't "find" his loot? Maybe he was carrying everything he took from his house? Or maybe he found the items in the same place as the White couple found their loot? That, dear, is the problem. The ASSUMPTION that the Black kid looted while food items just happened to float by the White couple. Why is it that everytime someone points out something blatently unfair, they're accused of pulling "the race card"? Whatever. Whining that someone is playing the race card is what is "ever-so-tired" ::)
Bunny
09-02-2005, 11:58 PM
I really wish everyone would quit trying to make it into a racial thing. There are a lot of white people holed up in their homes on the westbank, lakeview, uptown, and I haven't seen shit on the news about any of those areas. I know several white people who stayed in their homes and we cannot get in touch with them and for all I know they are dead. This is a tragedy that has nothing to do with race. People are dying and losing everything. It is happening to EVERYONE! Unfortunately a lot of the people who could not leave were poor and black but the failure to rescue people is just shitty. Everyone wants to blame it on something.
former_LV_dancer
09-03-2005, 08:30 AM
^^ YEP! I am so tired of race being dragged into this. Holy shit this is the time to band together and freaking help one another not point fingers and say people are not being saved because they are black. My GOD! NO is 70% black...so um yeah you're seeing images of black people. It's horrible they couldn't evacuate, yes, it also happens to be a poor area of the country. NO ONE thought the damage was as bad at first, the levees broke Tues, roads were impassable. Within 3 days we rescued THOUSANDS...and yes we weren't prepared but please leave race out of this. It's not the time. FOCUS on doing what you can and helping in this time of need, not whining about racial issues. Address those issues at a later date.
Sorry but this has really been pissing me off.
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 10:32 AM
Well I do happen to think race has ALOT to do with why it not only is taking so long to get relief to the victims but also why relief was not in place and ready to go beforehand.
I mean the Fed KNEW 2 days before hand that things were going to be bad and they KNEW that the odds were that N.O would flood .
When the storms hit FL last year there was relief being given out to people immediatly afterward. That part of FL is not a "poor" area for the most part nor does it have a mostly black population either. They didn't have to wait days for relief, they got it immediatly.
People can deny that race has something to do with letting these people in NOLA suffer so badly but personally I think that is just closing ones eyes to the obvious.
I also feel that had there not been so much outrage in the press about how long it was taking the Fed to send help to the people it would have taken even longer and maybe not at all. The focus would have been 100% on the oil and ports and nothing else.
It's just disgusting how this situation has been handled. The Fed CHOSE to not be prepared. It is just not forgivable under any circumstances.
former_LV_dancer
09-03-2005, 11:14 AM
I'm not going to get into an arguement here. But why is ALL the focus on the Federal gov't.? Did they screw up by not totally being prepared, yes. But why is NO FOCUS going towards the LOCAL goverment there as well? They have a black mayor and many black people in gov't. held offices there....so where were they? They knew the storm was coming too. ALOT of people "dropped the ball" here, not just the Federal gov't. Look, we can all point fingers or we can as AMERICANS, each and every one of us get off our political agendas and HELP these people. I'm white and so is my bf does that make us evil? We have donated ALOT of money so far, blood, clothing, shoes and more to come. Last night my bf couldn't sleep, (and he never has a problem sleeping) why? He was full of grief over this disaster, we both want to do more and the images from this are eating away at us. Complain about the politics LATER, help now. If you feel wronged by the gov't. that's your right as a citizen, but complaining isn't going to help these people who have lost everything. Money, volunteer work, and compassion will help them. It's really sad as a nation in the midst of a crisis people cannot fully band together for the cause at hand.
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 12:59 PM
We can all band together and offer our help and support and still point out the wrongs of what was allowed to happen and why.
Just because I feel racism is involved in the NOLA situation and am complaining about it doesn't mean I am not helping the victims. I donated $ 5,000 as well as blood and am now looking into adopting a pet or two who has lost their owner.
Personally, I think speaking out against the racism is part of helping these victims as well as trying to protect others from having this kind of thing happen in the future.
I don't see how ignoring it helps anyone now or in the future :-\
by the way the Mayor of N.O did ask for help and for years many of the local government people have been trying to get the leeves fixed for yeras now but Bush refused repeatedly.
check this link out for more details
The local governement officials do not have the resources to handle evacuating hundreds of thousands of people without federal assistance. The construction of the levy involves federal funding. The city of New Orleans has less than two weeks woth of operating money at this moment.
You have several hundred thousand people and 1-2% of that number in police officers. If you read up on this disaster the real problem was in getting the feds to react. The big impass involved an argument over where the feds responsibility started and the local and state governments ended. The city officials requested massive support immediately and ran into red tape. That is what you are not seeing on TV.
While the local officials may have responded a little better in some areas, they basically did what they could in opening up the convention center and Superdome and then requesting the military and National Guard in heavy numbers to take the people away.
When a city calls for emergency help, it should have been taken seriously. There is NO reason why people should have been left in hospitals for days with no electricity. That wouldn't have happened anywhere else, would it?
I'm sorry, but 90% of the blame for this chaos and the deaths is on the feds back.
This country always talks about preparing itself for disasters and terrorist attacks, yet every major city hasn't got an emergency evacuation plan coordinated with the feds to quickly get everyone out of a major city AND have places for hundreds of thousands of people to go instantly, and the transportation for them to get there quickly. New Orleans is a vivid example of that.
Of course racism plays a part here. How much of a part, I don't know. Dirty politics is involved also.
Realistically everyone should have evacuated Sunday but in a poor area where everyone has no transportation and funds that is not an easy task and again the feds would have to be involved. We are talking hundreds of thousands of people here. One bus only holds 45-50 people.
What happened is total bullshit. >:(
GLAD to hear from you OTB!
Now, where's Crow?
HERE! MY GOD.. the coast is gone, I'm heartbroken. My property is somewhat damaged but livable. I'm staying with my Mommy in Indy - when I decide where I am going I will start asking about clubs.
Politicians suck ass because if they would stop jacking around so many people would not of died. Thank you guys for all your thoughts and prayers, I'm so greatfull for it all. Be safe, stay well, Love for you all. Will keep you updated.
R
bikinigirl04
09-03-2005, 01:32 PM
glad you are ok girl! whew i was kinda worried when u hadnt posted since i think the 28th! hugs and more hugs!
Pictures of my house and my neighborhood. Sadness. Glad to hear you and yours are safe OTB. :)
R
VenusGoddess
09-03-2005, 01:52 PM
Wow...thank god you are ok, Crow!
Good to see you back!
two-timer
09-03-2005, 02:12 PM
Written with about as much credibility as Cindy Sheehan:
90% of the blame for this chaos and the deaths is on the feds back.
Anyway, I've seen some pictures of some of these looters. These SOBs are very physically fit. I have the opinion that these people intentionally stayed behind for the purpose of looting. They could have used their strength to migrate, by foot if necessary, away from the storm's path, just like animals migrated to higher ground prior to the coming of the tsunami in south Asia.
Yo Tina! I suppose those school buses that weren't deployed was the fault of the feds too, right?
Bridgette
09-03-2005, 04:25 PM
When the black kid is shown ON VIDEO breaking down a door to a store and later carrying stuff out, you know he didn't "find" it. All I was saying is that the word "find" would have been used in reference to the people carrying a bottle of soda and bag of bread, because most likely they weren't SEEN busting into a store to get it. Furthermore, when comparing a guy carting off a dozen pairs of Nikes to a couple carrying FOOD, people are generally less inclined to give Nike guy the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what color he is.
Yes, the race card is fucking tired. Racism will stop when EVERYBODY is willing to fucking let it go. Somebody's ALWAYS right there ready to scream racism at every possible opportunity. So a couple carrying food were assumed to have "found" it, while the people hauling Nikes by the dozen, beauty supplies, jewelry and electronics are automatically accused of looting. Big friggin deal. Yeah, if they were hauling anything but food or essential toilettries I'd assume they were looting too ::) No matter what color their skin is.
As far as the refugee thing. Obviously the people complaining about it don't know what it means and are looking for anything to complain about. The refugees complaining about being called refugees are mostly uneducated or poorly educated people who've likely only heard the word used on tv in reference to say, Afghanistanis fleeing to Pakistan because of US invasions, and god forbid we use the same word in this case ::)
refugee
n : an exile who flees for safety
exile
n 1: voluntarily absent from home or country [syn: expatriate] 2: expelled from home or country by authority [syn: deportee] 3: the act of expelling a person from their native land
War victims aren't the only ones who flee for safety and refugee doesn't ONLY apply to people displaced from country by war. If these hurricane victims - left homeless, jobless, with no place to go, surrounded literally by shit, garbage and other harmful people or toxins - aren't in exile and fleeing for safety, then wtf is it? By published definition, they ARE refugees. Don't those massive chips some people lug around get heavy after a while?
As for the lack of federal assistance, IMO that's a reflection of the shittiness of our president. He would be the one to give orders to send help. If he weren't still spending so much of our resources in Iraq, we might be better equipped to handle our own problems at home at a more appropriate pace. This really shows how vulnerable he's made us. To those who voted for him, there's what you voted for.
I'm not disagreeing Tina, that there should have been federal assistance in shoring up the levees a long time ago. It's been widely known for years that the levees couldn't withstand a big storm and the city needed federal assistance to deal with it. I'm also agreeing that there should be more federal assistance NOW, to get this stuff cleaned up. The national guard would have been called up immediately if it were New York, for example.
HOWEVER, as formerLV et all point out, the local government has consistently dropped the ball in New Orleans and Louisiana as well. The city is and always has been poor, but I can tell you that putting things off and expecting help from everyone else while not doing much yourself, and blaming everyone else is SOP in their local politics. Everyone wants but no one wants to work for it in NOLA. "Play now work later" has long been a huge part of the culture there - it's part of the charm that draws so many tourists, and it's a large part of the reason NOLA is also a difficult place to live. It's hard to get anyone to just do their fucking job. I think local government, past and present, is just as much to blame as federal.
former_LV_dancer
09-03-2005, 04:29 PM
Crow I'm glad to hear you are ok in all of this chaos.
Tina-I usually think your posts are very informative and fair, but I have to disagree here. I don't think ANY city could handle what happened with Katrina with local gov't. only. I agree the feds had to have a major hand in this, but I don't think they are 90% responsible. I read an earlier post of yours about how the mayor ran into red tape before the storm and that's understandable. Unfortunate but it's part of political BS that we all know exists. The media is showing us what they want to, and the racism aspect is out of control. I'm not saying there is NONE or to ignore it, but I have a really hard time believing that from the President on down through the chains of command orders were given to "slow the efforts down and let blacks die". As far as people left in hospitals to die, I don't think NOLA is the only place in a disaster that could happen. It's horrible, very horrible, but I don't believe it has been intentional. We weren't prepared for this, but alot of the good that IS being done is not being fairly reported. Showing devastation gets more viewers, sick but true.
SW Siren-Blaming ONLY Bush for the levees is incorrect. The problem also stretches back further than him in office. Not that I'm some die hard Bush supporter, but people want to blame him for just about everything that's wrong in our entire country. Americans voted him in, now we deal with it, whether it be good or bad.
I think alot of posters on SW are great people with alot to contribute, and discussing these issues always gets heated. One thing we can all agree on is to help the people in need right now. Whether they are black, white, green or purple.
Bridgette
09-03-2005, 04:39 PM
And Crow, I'm glad to see you're ok too.
I still have friends from NOLA I haven't heard from. :(
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Pictures of my house and my neighborhood. Sadness. Glad to hear you and yours are safe OTB. :)
R
Crow, glad to hear you're safe!! I'm so sorry about your home. Best of luck to you.
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 04:54 PM
As for the lack of federal assistance, IMO that's a reflection of the shittiness of our president. He would be the one to give orders to send help. If he weren't still spending so much of our resources in Iraq, we might be better equipped to handle our own problems at home at a more appropriate pace. This really shows how vulnerable he's made us. To those who voted for him, there's what you voted for.
yup, that has a hell of alot to do with the lack of proper reaction to the situation in NOLA.
what really scares me is what if this had been a bio-terror attack ?
and Bridgette's last comment in the above quote is soooo dead on ! No pun intended.
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Written with about as much credibility as Cindy Sheehan:
Anyway, I've seen some pictures of some of these looters. These SOBs are very physically fit. I have the opinion that these people intentionally stayed behind for the purpose of looting. They could have used their strength to migrate, by foot if necessary, away from the storm's path, just like animals migrated to higher ground prior to the coming of the tsunami in south Asia.
Yo Tina! I suppose those school buses that weren't deployed was the fault of the feds too, right?
You gotta be f*ing kidding me? PUHLEASE tell me you don't really believe this crock of crap. By Goddess, this has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread so far. And I didn't think the "race-card" thing be topped...::) I stand corrected.
FYI, a lot of people didn't leave because either they didn't think it was going to be that bad OR they had no means of getting themselves or their families out of NOLA. If you made $11K a year, had two wheelchair bound elderly parents in your care, how the hell would YOU get out? Sure, FEMA & the local officials TOLD them to leave but NO ONE HELPED FACILITATE THAT PROCESS. Telling people to leave is a helluva lot easier than actually planning and preparing for an evacuation. These people had no idea where to go - all they knew was that Katrina was a'coming and they were supposed to get out. Why was there not a MANDATORY evacuation like in Florida?
And with an estimate of 10K dead, why in the world are we concerned with merchandise?
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 05:00 PM
I just read this comment in a newspaper article and thought I'd share it
The first rule of the social fabric - that in times of crisis you protect the vulnerable - was trampled. Leaving the poor in New Orleans was the moral equivalent of leaving the injured on the battlefield
lwtex52
09-03-2005, 05:17 PM
Pictures of my house and my neighborhood. Sadness. Glad to hear you and yours are safe OTB. :)
R
Good to know you survived it all. As soon as the politicians quit blaming it on each other, perhaps we can all get to work making it whole again.
former_LV_dancer
09-03-2005, 05:33 PM
As soon as the politicians quit blaming it on each other, perhaps we can all get to work making it whole again.
Amen to this statement!
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 05:44 PM
When the black kid is shown ON VIDEO breaking down a door to a store and later carrying stuff out, you know he didn't "find" it. All I was saying is that the word "find" would have been used in reference to the people carrying a bottle of soda and bag of bread, because most likely they weren't SEEN busting into a store to get it. Furthermore, when comparing a guy carting off a dozen pairs of Nikes to a couple carrying FOOD, people are generally less inclined to give Nike guy the benefit of the doubt. I don't care what color he is.
:O What video are you talking about? I'm referring to the two photos that I posted. One Black kid looting on video doesn't translate into "all them Black kids was lootin"'. Sorry.
Besides, you nor I have any idea what was in his bag. Again, could've been all of his worldly possessions. Of course he could've teamed up with the White couple and looted a couple of stores. Who knows? The problem isn't who was doing what (because frankly, I couldn't care less if someone was looting) - it's just the wording used in the captions to describe the same action as perpetrated by two different ethnicities. There are obviously White, Black, and Hispanic people looting and there are those that are also just trying to survive. Mother Nature could give a damn about someone's ethnicity, but apparently, Yahoo did.
Yes, the race card is fucking tired. Racism will stop when EVERYBODY is willing to fucking let it go. Somebody's ALWAYS right there ready to scream racism at every possible opportunity.
Saying that someone is "playing the race-card" is lazy. Why actually research and enlighten yourself about a topic when it's so much easier to say "no fair - she's playing the race-card"? Bringing up race in a topic where there is obviously cause for concern for it is not "playing the race-card". People want answers to questions and when you have a city that's 67% Black and nothing was done, should it be any surprise that someone brings up race?
I don't necessarily agree that racism played a part in not fixing the levees. etc... (I'm seeing $$$$ - or lack thereof - as the cause). Both CNN & FAUX are making it clear that people of all ethnicities are affected by Katrine, but I'm willing to at least read the argument, before putting up f*ing blinders simply because someone said "race".
As far as the refugee thing. Obviously the people complaining about it don't know what it means and are looking for anything to complain about.
Not sure where you're getting YOUR definition, but according to Websters:
One entry found for refugee.
Main Entry: ref·u·gee http://webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:popWin%28%27/cgi-bin/audio.pl?refuge02.wav=refugee%27%29)
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE, 're-fyu-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French réfugié, past participle of (se) réfugier to take refuge, from Latin refugium
: one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution
http://webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=refugee&x=0&y=0
THAT is what a refugee is and THOSE people are who it should be directed to and not American victims. Run a search (google is such a handy-dandy tool) and you'll understand what I mean. I'm sure "refugee" doesn't act as a disconnect to you, but to the masses, it does serve as one, albeit an unconcious one.
As for the lack of federal assistance, IMO that's a reflection of the shittiness of our president. He would be the one to give orders to send help. If he weren't still spending so much of our resources in Iraq, we might be better equipped to handle our own problems at home at a more appropriate pace. This really shows how vulnerable he's made us. To those who voted for him, there's what you voted for.
I'm not disagreeing Tina, that there should have been federal assistance in shoring up the levees a long time ago. It's been widely known for years that the levees couldn't withstand a big storm and the city needed federal assistance to deal with it. I'm also agreeing that there should be more federal assistance NOW, to get this stuff cleaned up. The national guard would have been called up immediately if it were New York, for example.
HOWEVER, as formerLV et all point out, the local government has consistently dropped the ball in New Orleans and Louisiana as well. The city is and always has been poor, but I can tell you that putting things off and expecting help from everyone else while not doing much yourself, and blaming everyone else is SOP in their local politics. Everyone wants but no one wants to work for it in NOLA. "Play now work later" has long been a huge part of the culture there - it's part of the charm that draws so many tourists, and it's a large part of the reason NOLA is also a difficult place to live. It's hard to get anyone to just do their fucking job. I think local government, past and present, is just as much to blame as federal.
And therein lies the REAL problem. Monday-morning quarterbacking. Beautifully articulated and I agree wholeheartedly.
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 06:23 PM
I'm not going to get into an arguement here. But why is ALL the focus on the Federal gov't.? Did they screw up by not totally being prepared, yes. But why is NO FOCUS going towards the LOCAL goverment there as well? They have a black mayor and many black people in gov't. held offices there....so where were they?
People are not bound to protect one another simply by virtue of being the same ethnicity. Although I'm curious as to why people think that the Black mayor should've been the FIRST to do something. We're all Americans, right? Exactly WHO is playing the "race-card" here?
Look, we can all point fingers or we can as AMERICANS, each and every one of us get off our political agendas and HELP these people. I'm white and so is my bf does that make us evil?
No one is saying you and your BF are evil, or that White people are evil. My BF is White and he's highly agitated by NOLA. We've both donated money, supplies, and time. I believe most people are blaming the government (FEMA and Shrubya), not White people. So again, I ask, who is playing the race-card here? Or does FEMA = White Folk all of a sudden?
Money, volunteer work, and compassion will help them. It's really sad as a nation in the midst of a crisis people cannot fully band together for the cause at hand.
Exactly!! It shouldn't come as a shock to anyone here, but when my BF and I volunteered this afternoon, we were surrounded by people of all ethnicities. It was quite lovely seeing people come together to "get 'er done" as my BF says. The arguments on a message board do not reflect the feeling of brotherhood & sisterhood that I experienced today at Kelly USA.
IMO, the reason "racism" comes up in cases like these is because there are racists in this country and there are people who have experienced racism first-hand for a LONG time and are therefore, a bit jumpy about seeing ONE ethnicity doing something that reinforces an extremely negative stereotype. By nature, people like to think the worst about outgroups (see racist boards for an example) and to see SOME Black people looting reinforces the notion that all Black people steal/riot/rape/etc...On the flip side, if you have been raised to think that no one cares about Black people, there's a massive flood in NOLA that COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED, and the people in power (real power, not "mayoral" power) are majority White, then it unfortunately reinforces THAT stereotype.
Hopefully, this situation will open some eyes. The media has done a great job of showing the diversity of the victims and how they're all in the same boat, and that people of all ethnicities and background are coming out of the woodworks to volunteer, to open their homes, to provide employment and school assistance, and medical treatment. Bush and FEMA be damned; this country has class.
The_Oceans
09-03-2005, 06:42 PM
:grouphug: Good to hear from you Crow. Sorry to hear (and see) about your home. My prayers to you and your family as you get through this.
TigersMilk
09-03-2005, 07:21 PM
God I come back and there are all these pinned topics.
Crow, Im so happy to see you are alive! :hug:
I cant believe the pictures...even on the news as much as they show it, it still feels so surreal to me. Like none of this is happening or its not that bad. The sad part is it is that bad. My heart breaks for everyone effected by this montrous storm. I still cant fathom it...
Bridgette
09-03-2005, 07:23 PM
I got my definition of refugee from dictionary.com. . There's more than one definition for most words in the english language, and words have different meanings in different contexts. The site listed several definitions of the word refugee; I just copied the most basic one. It doesn't HAVE to ONLY mean people fleeing their country due to war. ::)
(webster's online)
Main Entry: ref·u·gee
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE, 're-fyu-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French réfugié, past participle of (se) réfugier to take refuge, from Latin refugium
: one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution
(pulls definitions from several dictionaries and quotes sources with publish dates)
3 entries found for refugee.
ref·u·gee
n. One who flees in search of refuge, as in times of war, political oppression, or religious persecution. Main Entry: ref·u·gee
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE
Function: noun
: an individual seeking refuge or asylum; especially : an individual who has left his or her native country and is unwilling or unable to return to it because of persecution or fear of persecution (as because of race, religion, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion)
refugee
n : an exile who flees for safety
So, taking the basic meanings of the word, those hurricane victims are most definitely, BY DEFINITION, refugees. It pays to get more than one rather narrow source when trying to grasp the whole meaning of a word.
I found it rather narrow to pick out two pictures out of the hundreds on yahoo to point out an example of "racism". My point on the subject, Amethyst, was that we don't know how yahoo got their info about their pics, so to take THOSE TWO pics and draw the following conclusion might be just a tad quick and harsh in judgement:
Black folks loot, White folks just "find" stuff. Right. Since NO is something 67% Black and the majority of the poor NO population, it makes sense that the media would show more Black looters than White. BUT, it does not excuse the captions and the portrayal of the Black looters.
Ugh. Why are so many people always so quick with the criticisms and judgements? I think I'm done with this; I've got friends I don't know are alive or dead and no way to find out for a while. People are suffering and dying, my hometown is sitting in ruins and drowning in shit, and this hair-splitting over bullshit is pointless.
Casual Observer
09-03-2005, 07:33 PM
Although I'm curious as to why people think that the Black mayor should've been the FIRST to do something.
The reason Nagin must accept the bulk of the blame is because the federal government cannot mobilize ANG units or FEMA responders before local and state officials not only formally request assistance but declare a state of emergency. This is where the mayor of NOLA (Nagin) erred most egregiously; immediately after the storm passed he should have requested ANG units from the governor who has the independent authority to deploy them--GWB cannot do this without their consent; it's a violation of US law for military units to act in a federal law enforcement role.
Naturally, the GWB haters want to lay this at his feet, but erroneously so. You want to piss on GWB for something? Piss on him because our federal government is bankrupting us at a staggering rate or because GWB caved to idiotic public demand for the creation of DHS (a completely rudderless and impotent cluster fuck of an oversight agency) which severely hampered FEMA's flexibility and efficiency or because our energy policy will do nothing to rectify the pain of a disaster like Katrina or because he's never vetoed a single spending bill. As for the catastrophe in NOLA, it has nothing to do with GWB and everything to do with the fact that, a) despite the best efforts and billions of dollars spent by the eminently capable ACOE, the Mississippi River has been confined to the detriment of the Louisiana wetlands (they've lost 2 million acres in 50 years!) and NOLA itself, b) as Bridgette noted, the local and state politicians have not made disaster preparedness a priority despite the fact that FEMA disaster exercises predicted a hurricane striking NOLA would be one of the three worst possible scenarios at a national level, and c) despite three full days to evacuate the city, it's damn hard to move a million people anywhere in 72 hours even under the best conditions and not everyone will consent to leaving--whether that be for benign, opportunisitic or malevolent reasoning.
This disaster was a long time coming, and anyone believing that spending another $100 million on levees would have saved the city from the ravages of a CAT 4 or 5 hurricane are simply fooling themselves. This tragedy was not preventable--it was going to happen eventually and everyone knew it even if they chose to live in denial about it or otherwise ignore it. Why this surprises anyone is beyond me.
GWB will take the hit on this, because he's the president and the biggest target. Sadly, no one is going to seriously look at the endemic corruption and negligence that typified NOLA politics, though I have hopes that the environmental realities of wetland loss and river flow will enter the debate about whether to rebuild or relocate NOLA entirely, since this part of the equation simply can't be ignored anymore.
Oh sorry, I should of explained.. That blonde woman walking through all of that mess is me.. from the back and my house is the one with the big purple SUV sitting in front of it. Thank Gawd it's okay, cats are okay, I'm okay.. Yay! The storm was easy, what comes next is the hard part.
R
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 10:19 PM
The reason Nagin must accept the bulk of the blame is because the federal government cannot mobilize ANG units or FEMA responders before local and state officials not only formally request assistance but declare a state of emergency. This is where the mayor of NOLA (Nagin) erred most egregiously; immediately after the storm passed he should have requested ANG units from the governor who has the independent authority to deploy them
ok , I'm confused now. It is my understanding that the help WAS requested by Nagin.
Casual, where are you getting it from that he did not ask for help ?
here's a snip from the transcript of Nagin's radio address
"I need reinforcements," he pleaded. "I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. This is a national disaster.
"I've talked directly with the president," he said. "I've talked to the head of the homeland security. I've talked to everybody under the sun."
Casual Observer
09-03-2005, 10:46 PM
^ It was. But martial law was not declared for two whole days after the storm left NOLA, so there was no deployment orders given to ANG units. You cannot deliver aid without security, simple as that. Everything from there went downhill.
Nagin's bullshit about buses would be funny if they didn't have entire parking lots full of school buses (http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html) sitting submerged--he had resources and didn't even use them all.
For all his failings--in this endeavor and others during his term--Nagin was objectively overwhelmed and the destruction of communications infrastructure surely didn't help. Nevertheless, FEMA had already started sending aid on Tuesday. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476563/posts)
I almost feel bad for him; nevermind that you couldn't possibly evacuate everyone in NOLA in three days time, even if he could, can you imagine the political and financial damage he would have incurred had the hurricane been little more than a blustery rainstorm? Still, it was a CAT 5 the day before it hit, and they whistled through the graveyard.
former_LV_dancer
09-03-2005, 10:53 PM
No gov't. office is squeaky clean, and NOLA has a reputation for corruption. Is this why the main focus is on the Federal gov.'t and the local gov't. is not being mentioned much?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1476884/posts
People are not bound to protect one another simply by virtue of being the same ethnicity. Although I'm curious as to why people think that the Black mayor should've been the FIRST to do something. We're all Americans, right? Exactly WHO is playing the "race-card" here?
I never said they were. But majority of the focus is on the Federal gov't. and I want to know why the local authorities are not claiming to be responsible for SOME of the chaos? It's their job as well to try and help the people of that city. That was my point. All I keep hearing is "the President and the Federal Gov't. let NOLA down". So then a cities mayor etc. have no responsibilities? Where was the local police force to try and keep some kind of control? Anything? Something is not adding up here. That was my point I was trying to get across.
I think in the weeks and months and years to come alot will unfold from many angles and it isn't going to be pretty.
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 10:59 PM
I got my definition of refugee from dictionary.com. http://www.dictionary.com. There's more than one definition for most words in the english language, and words have different meanings in different contexts. The site listed several definitions of the word refugee; I just copied the most basic one. It doesn't HAVE to ONLY mean people fleeing their country due to war. ::)
So, taking the basic meanings of the word, those hurricane victims are most definitely, BY DEFINITION, refugees. It pays to get more than one rather narrow source when trying to grasp the whole meaning of a word.
I found it rather narrow to pick out two pictures out of the hundreds on yahoo to point out an example of "racism". My point on the subject, Amethyst, was that we don't know how yahoo got their info about their pics, so to take THOSE TWO pics and draw the following conclusion might be just a tad quick and harsh in judgement:
Ugh. Why are so many people always so quick with the criticisms and judgements? I think I'm done with this; I've got friends I don't know are alive or dead and no way to find out for a while. People are suffering and dying, my hometown is sitting in ruins and drowning in shit, and this hair-splitting over bullshit is pointless.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/Syren77/Emoticons/smileyrevolvdoor.gif
No, what's pointless is trying to enlighten those who wish to stay in rose-colored little world where up is down and displaced Americans - in America - are called "refugees".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v151/Syren77/Emoticons/tmi.gifInstead of running "refugee" in Google to find not only a definition, but to find out how the term is actually used in America and abroad, you actually went through four freaking definitions to try and piece together a definition to suit YOUR...ahem "narrow" definition, which is still wrong btw, but whatever. Unbelievable.
Further, I did not use the Yahoo pictures to cry racism and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take my words out of context. Another poster was talking about BLACK people looting even though EVERYONE was looting. I point out a picture as one EXAMPLE of how this gets played out in media outlets and heavens-to-betsy I'm playing the dreaded race-card. For merely showing proof that everyone is looting, not just "White-oppressed Black people", regardless of what some people may have seen on TV or in news captions. For what it's worth (as I've said in different threads), I think that with the exception of a few problems here and there, the media have done a not-bad job of showing what's happening in NOLA, making a conscious effort to eliminate any bias based on ethnicity or other socioeconomic factors.
But alas, I grow weary of this discussion, and having realized I am not getting anywhere, I am respectfully (or something like that) declining to engage in further rounds with you regarding the definition of refugee or photo captions.
The reason Nagin must accept the bulk of the blame is because the federal government cannot mobilize ANG units or FEMA responders before local and state officials not only formally request assistance but declare a state of emergency. This is where the mayor of NOLA (Nagin) erred most egregiously; immediately after the storm passed he should have requested ANG units from the governor who has the independent authority to deploy them--GWB cannot do this without their consent; it's a violation of US law for military units to act in a federal law enforcement role.
I understand all this. I was actually responding the poster who pointed out that the mayor, along with other govt officials, is Black and was wondering where all the Black officials were at (as if to say Blacks should take care of other Blacks first).
There were a whole lot of ball-droppers that played a role in this disaster and heads will roll. I did hear on a couple of radio programs that the Gov did try to obtain $5 million in order to begin evacuations (tracking down Gee Dubya in Crawford) on August 28th, but for whatever reason, the moolah never came. (That was heard on Air America Radio and repeated on a SAT station, so take it for what it's worth :P )
My opinion? As President of the US, Shrubya saw that an entire city of his citizens were getting ready to get slammed. REGARDLESS of what's "illegal", he should have been on the horn with Nagin, Blanco, Michael Brown, etc.. getting their asses in gear and getting the residents of NOLA evacuated. I would not have flitted around town, preparing for my banjo gig.
Nagin is acting all sad and despondent now, worrying about "his people", but I saw on FAUX news (again, take it for what it's worth) that he let 400 tourists get in front of "his people" who were in line waiting for buses to get them out of the Superdome. It's little things like those that set off riots. The whole lot of them is full of sh*t; Bush is just one of the many players.
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 11:03 PM
^ It was. But martial law was not declared for two whole days after the storm left NOLA, so there was no deployment orders given to ANG units. You cannot deliver aid without security, simple as that.
ok so then we are back to where we started
he asked for the help and the fed did not respond in a timely fashion.
sorry, but it's the Fed's responciblilty to care for things like this and this particular administration has not done a very good job of it so far. It's a national disgrace and sadly this is not the first for this bunch of assholes either. It's just the latest of a long line of disgusting things.
Amethyst
09-03-2005, 11:06 PM
I never said they were. But majority of the focus is on the Federal gov't. and I want to know why the local authorities are not claiming to be responsible for SOME of the chaos? It's their job as well to try and help the people of that city. That was my point. All I keep hearing is "the President and the Federal Gov't. let NOLA down". So then a cities mayor etc. have no responsibilities? Where was the local police force to try and keep some kind of control? Anything? Something is not adding up here. That was my point I was trying to get across.
I think in the weeks and months and years to come alot will unfold from many angles and it isn't going to be pretty.
Thanks for clarifying. Within the context of our earlier discussion, you asking about the "Black mayor and Black gov't officials" - not just the mayor & gov't officials - made it seem otherwise. Frankly, I think the sh*t is going to roll uphill in this case - and rightly so.
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 11:18 PM
check this video out
you might want to skip the short Dell ad it starts with
SW Siren
09-03-2005, 11:24 PM
My opinion? As President of the US, Shrubya saw that an entire city of his citizens were getting ready to get slammed. REGARDLESS of what's "illegal", he should have been on the horn with Nagin, Blanco, Michael Brown, etc.. getting their asses in gear and getting the residents of NOLA evacuated. I would not have flitted around town, preparing for my banjo gig.
exactly !!!!! I mean wtf is up with Bush ignoring things this important anyway ?
It's just like how he ignored the intelligence that told him flat out that 9/11 was in the works. Apparently his vacation time is more important >:(
grrrrr. He and his whole crew make me so sick !
I think I am out of this thread for awhile. I'm getting pretty worked up over all the defending of Bush's and the Fed's original reaction to the horrible situation in N.O. It seriously pisses me off to see people defend that monster !
Katrine
09-03-2005, 11:30 PM
I've found multiple definitions of refugee online and most of them do refer to international displacement. But some sites have alternate definitions that could apply to the situation at hand. Its all semantics.
The displaced people I was bringing supplies to tonight really don't care what they are referred to as, they are trying to re-construct their lives. They are doctors and going back to NO in the morning to work in the severly understaffed hospitals despite being stuck in a hospital with no electricity or ventilation for 5 days, watching 1,000 patients, while helicopters flew by them repeatedly. They no longer have homes, everything was completely destroyed in the neigborhood where they live, 9th ward. They could give a shit what you call them, but they told me that they do feel like refugees.
And not ALL the displaced people are AMERICANS either. What about the resident and illegal aliens over there? See where we go when we start making up bullshit naming conventions. Refugee works fine for me.