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GnBeret
09-03-2005, 04:14 AM
LOL...i think you're confusing the boys from the smurf site with the fuckos who post mostly on the pink site.

"fuckos" ??? Moi?

Pardon the interruption but, seeing as how I appear to be being referred to in this manner, would very much appreciate it if you could explain what, exactly it is that I'm being called.:confused:

mr_punk
09-03-2005, 07:03 AM
take the quiz to find out if you're a Fucko. (http://www.zbone.com/internet/bestofzbb/bb021223.htm)

SeppeSai
09-03-2005, 08:23 AM
I always liked that quiz. I "failed" it by answering yes to more than a few of the questions. So be it.

Gendai73
09-03-2005, 08:32 AM
i guess i'm a fucko i answered yes to all the automatic fucko questions

Destiny
09-03-2005, 09:09 AM
Okay, here's my last post on this.

As I've said before, I have no problem with moneywise paying for sex. It sounds to me like she definitely undercharged him, but then again, isn't this the same girl someone said was borderline retarded? I would think any fuck worthy of a posting in the Holy Grail section of the smurf site would be worth a minimum of $500, but maybe that's just me.

All I said is this:

If someone you have some type of relationship with asks you for your opinion, you have a moral obligation to give them an answer based on what is best for them. Anything else is slimy.

The responses fall into three categories:
"You're just saying that 'cause it was sex." - No, I'm not. See above.
"Why can't you accept that there are win-win situations?" - This is nothing more than the old, "the ends justify the means" argument. I don't care if moneywise's girl had the greatest orgasm of her life and he in fact did pay her $3,000, not $300. The DJ's actions were slimy, not because of the result, but because of his motivation, which was clearly to help MW get some pussy.
"Strip clubs are dens of sin, you strippers shouldn't complain if a co-worker stabs you in the back" - I think it was Jenny that pointed out that it is only the customers that are using this as justification. Would you feel the same if your co-workers treated you that way?
Lastly, you guys can't have it both ways. On the one hand, you argue it was a "win-win" situation. In other words, the DJ's actions were acceptable because things turned out fine. On the other hand you want to argue that stip clubs are such evil places that the workers there have no ethical duty to look out for each other. Which is it? You can't credit the slimy DJ for his part in arranging the liason and yet claim he bore no responsibiliy for the result. What if instead of giving her the fuck of her life MW had strangled her and dumped her body in the river? Should the DJ bear any responsibilty for his role in that?

Returning to lurking mode now.

evan_essence
09-03-2005, 09:21 AM
if i may use an analogy. the view from a stripper's POV sort of like this, MW: imagine that the DJ and either the stripper you banged or fingered are siblings rather than co-workers.Thank you! That's a good comparison, at least in terms of reflecting the thinking behind that side of the argument. Not that it will do any good.


at least, that's the theory. of course, this theory conveniently ignores the fact that this is an industry where the outlaw element is quite prevalent among the people who work in it. IMO, it's a bit hubristic even for an individual who's aware of this fact to think they're somehow immune just because they're co-workers or paying a tip-out.Well, if one accepts the theory, then it follows that one would characterize the dancer as not being too bright for being so trusting. Myself, I still can't figure out why she didn't collect $500 as per the original offer, instead of $300. Maybe she extended the employee discount to MW; that's really popular marketing these days.


i simply can't share your moral outrage over it.Yeah, but at least you get the point rather than pledging allegiance to the DJ. I don't understand why calling his actions "not nice" garnered so much controversy from some. I think Jenny just attracts argumentative opposition like a magnet.


i don't think too many guys are going to get worked up over the idea of one weasel eating another weasel.Say now, you shouldn't denigrate MW's choice of friends and Holy Grails that way.

-Ev

All Good Things
09-03-2005, 12:44 PM
I always liked that quiz. I "failed" it by answering yes to more than a few of the questions. So be it.

The guy who wrote that quiz desperately, desperately needs to get laid. Preferably by a dancer. One who chooses him, and specifically chooses him to fuck him.

What's amusing about quizzes like that is that the authors don't seem to realize what they reveal about them. This quiz points to a flashing neon "REJECTED" sign on his forehead. The stench of failure. Blistering jealousy.

I haven't seen that combination of righteous indignation, hostility and juvenile breath-holding since the Junior High drama of "geeks get rejected by cheerleaders."

In real life, the smart, pretty girls choose you when you are worth being chosen. That intangible "thing" travels with you into the club. Even recognizing that money is the primary driver in the club, if your reaction to being ignored there is to furiously scribble pathetic "wacko" tests as darts aimed at fellow customers who are attracting more attention than you are, then you are revealing something unsettling about yourself that you may be better off concealing.

aggieed
09-03-2005, 02:36 PM
I would think any fuck worthy of a posting in the Holy Grail section of the smurf site would be worth a minimum of $500, but maybe that's just me.

LOL! I've found that most guys paying that much (for strippers anyway) are the ones LEAST likely to post about it. I have a couple of friends who pay some premium prices for their OTC activities (more than I would ever pay certainly), but in the "Internet" world, they're pretty much non-existent.

Jenny
09-03-2005, 02:42 PM
besides, other than being a source of amusement or indifference. i don't think too many guys are going to get worked up over the idea of one weasel eating another weasel.
Okay - first thing. I am not a weasel. And I think that analogy is insulting to both strippers and weasels. Secondly - have you ever seen a weasel eating another weasel? Or heard of such a thing? I don't think weasels eat weasels. I've never seen a weasel personally, but I used to have ferrets which are quite weasel like (they died of old age everyone - I didn't eat them) and I never saw them chewing on each other. Even when the poor things were locked in cage for at least a couple of hours with a corpsey member of their brethern. I think if I saw a weasel eating another weasel, I would personally be really freaked out.

Katrine
09-03-2005, 04:06 PM
LOL! I've found that most guys paying that much (for strippers anyway) are the ones LEAST likely to post about it. I have a couple of friends who pay some premium prices for their OTC activities (more than I would ever pay certainly), but in the "Internet" world, they're pretty much non-existent.

10-4 on that one sir! Well, from what a little birdie told me, prevailing market rate is a locker-room bragging myth, even in Austin. 8)

SportsWriter2
09-03-2005, 08:24 PM
Okay - first thing. I am not a weasel. And I think that analogy is insulting to both strippers and weasels. Secondly - have you ever seen a weasel eating another weasel?.... I think if I saw a weasel eating another weasel, I would personally be really freaked out.
Weasels go into chipmunk burrows, eat the chipmunks, and take over their homes. If chipmunks didn't exist, weasels would probably eat each other. They're vicious little carnivores. :O


What if instead of giving her the fuck of her life MW had strangled her and dumped her body in the river?
Look, she knew she was in for the fuck of her life. DJ P knew she was in for the fuck of her life. Even you knew it. Do you like being choked and passing out while you get off? Sorry, MW doesn't do that stuff.

Me, I don't even play with dancers who have asthma. :O

Katrine
09-03-2005, 10:38 PM
Look, she knew she was in for the fuck of her life.

Fuck of her life? The girl is what, 23? Only men think this way. Sporty, get a grip. ::)

Moneywise
09-03-2005, 11:24 PM
I think "fuck of her life" is stretching it a bit. ;)

She wasn't even the fuck of my life.

If the fuck of my life was something I would have had to pay for I would consider that rather pathetic.

The fuck of my life is Australian. (actually aboriginal from Papua New Guinea w/ a sexy little Aussie accent)

I've talked about her before.

We fucked like wild rabbits about 10 years ago and still, to this day, keep in touch via email/phone. My heart still melts whenever I talk to her. We're both in our early thirties now. She's married. He doesn't mind her talking to me. Secure man.

Although she's far from "fuck of my life" territory Ms. J is definitely worth another looksie.

Mastridonicus
09-04-2005, 09:15 AM
Fuck of her life? The girl is what, 23? Only men think this way. Sporty, get a grip. ::)


Thats a curious thought entirely self standing. How the hell does a girl think? I, so far, suck soooo bad at this sport, I'm afraid to masterbate in fear of my hand feeling unfufilled,

REGARDLESS, The point of interest still stands, How do woman approach this subject in locker room bragging, I mean hell I doubt its even talked about cause it seems once women have found a good fleecer, they don't want anyone to know cause once they do....its competition. But I digress, I really don't care THAT much. ::)



If someone you have some type of relationship with asks you for your opinion, you have a moral obligation to give them an answer based on what is best for them. Anything else is slimy.

The responses fall into three categories:

1. "You're just saying that 'cause it was sex." - No, I'm not. See above.
2. "Why can't you accept that there are win-win situations?" - This is nothing more than the old, "the ends justify the means" argument. I don't care if moneywise's girl had the greatest orgasm of her life and he in fact did pay her $3,000, not $300. The DJ's actions were slimy, not because of the result, but because of his motivation, which was clearly to help MW get some pussy.
3. "Strip clubs are dens of sin, you strippers shouldn't complain if a co-worker stabs you in the back" - I think it was Jenny that pointed out that it is only the customers that are using this as justification. Would you feel the same if your co-workers treated you that way?


I still think this is getting WAYYY blown outta proportion, but I think you CHOOSE to leave Category 4 out of this.

#4 - The girl KNEW what she was doing, and was going to take MW up on his offer regardless of DJ input.

YOU CAN'T BE SLIMY IF NO ONE CARES.

10-1 he was in ear shot and she just kinda included him.

I dunno, I still subscribe to the theory that adults are adults and that killing someone isn't ok because the DJ said that if you're going to do it, the victim is a good choice. I don't see anyone complaining that the DJ didn't tell MW to wear a condom since, because she's human, and has sex, she MAY have a VD. When I first read this, I completely overlooked the DJ, and secondly, I get a good laugh out of the point of view that people have regarding this girl and how it must have been like a storybook:

*As Smurf Posters see it
And slowly, she turned to the DJ, amist the music, and looked at him with the most sincere, and inquisitive yet lovingly innocent gaze, cocked her head to the left and said,
"Dj Jazzy Jeff," she fluttered her eyes
"Should I take the MoneyWise fellow up on his offer?" She asked him, she really didn't know if she should, sure MW has bought thousands off her in LDs, and has spent many hours with her, but what did she know of him, REALLY, I mean, sure he was attractive, but now....her entire decision rests on the ripling shoulders of the dashing devilish satan worshiping dj as he replied,
"OF COURSE YOU SHOULD" his eyes alit with the fires of hell
"HE'S A PERFECT GENTLEMAN! AAAAAHAHAHAHA"


I mean CHRIST. people DO THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

I really wonder tho, what COULD the DJ have said that would have made him a good dj? I mean, I garauntee she woulda fucked MW ANYWAYS. And to the DJ its either tell her not to do it and explain to mw, or step outta it and just be another opinionless sucker, or realize that if she's asking, SHE'S ALREADY ACCEPTED THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF SEX FOR MONEY, and not overanalyze it and go with the, enjoy it and be safe reply. I'm thinking you all wanted him to pull out some pamphlet on safe sex, cite club policy, and then pray with her because she concidered it.

And secondly what if the DJ/Dancer was the one to post this thread? Say the dancer? "I just had amazing sex with a custy that a DJ recommended" She'd be pm'd by me and every other complete pl on this site asking for a specific how to.

Ok. Done.

*shakes head*
hahah
I get to into this one.

Mastridonicus
09-04-2005, 09:19 AM
on a second thought, MW is probably never going to post a thread again hahaha
Hows it feel up there on the cross MW?

Rath
09-04-2005, 10:50 AM
It seems very clear to me that Jenny (and Destiny) is/are completely right in this discussion.

And I'm a guy who frequently pays strippers to sleep with me, so you can't say I think this because I think there's anything wrong with the kind of behavior these women were unfairly influenced into engaging in.

I also think it's interesting that it's the guys, who have at best secondhand experience of this industry, who keep insisting that anything goes because it's an "outlaw" scene. I think guys like to romanticize the industry like that, to make themselves seem like outlaws or pirates or something cuz they spend money in strip clubs. Whereas, to the strippers, it's just where they work.

aggieed
09-04-2005, 11:57 AM
Well, from what a little birdie told me, prevailing market rate is a locker-room bragging myth, even in Austin.

Well, the 2-3 bill range for OTC isn't a myth based on my own personal experience and the experience of other guys I trust (of which there are only a small handful). I've paid two before (several times in fact with my last ATF ranging in "time" of 2-4 hours), was once quoted $250 for 1.5 hours by another (but never went through with it), and recently negotiated 3 bills with one dancer (but then got cold feet, so to speak, when I realized that most others were paying in the 2-250 range with that dancer...stupid me, especially since I was actually kinda proud that I negotiated down from the original 5 bills she quoted me...that and some other issues had me ignoring her phone calls. :P )

As for guys paying 4-5 bills and up...eh. I have one friend (aforementioned)who cracks me up sometimes. We were recently talking about a couple of strippers he took home with him for a pseudo-threesome. I say pseudo because he basically paid them 4 bills each to "play" with each other while he watched. His only interaction was a little DATY with a HJ finish. A waste of money, IMO, but given the number of strippers he's had "interactions" with over the years (most of whom he has actually slept with) and his success rate (the highest of ANYBODY I know), I'm usually just amazed.

yoda57us
09-04-2005, 12:09 PM
I also think it's interesting that it's the guys, who have at best secondhand experience of this industry, who keep insisting that anything goes because it's an "outlaw" scene. I think guys like to romanticize the industry like that, to make themselves seem like outlaws or pirates or something cuz they spend money in strip clubs.

I agree. It's sex for money and, though I certainly don't have any problem with it (being a willing participant and all) I don't see any point in romanticizing it or attaching any sort of macho braggadocio to it either. I look for a girl who I feel a connection with when I go to clubs. If I meet one and at some point in the relationship she happens to offer OTC playtime (I never ask) I'm all for it. If my wallet needs to be involved (which it is 99% of the time) I’m ready with the ATM card. Since I'm not a stranger to escort agencies I do have my limits as to what I will spend for an OTC dancer encounter.



Good sex is good sex and, when I'm having it, I'm not judging either myself or my partner based on weather it was free or involved an envelope full of cash.



The "fuck of my life" will be the one that kills me.;)

SportsWriter2
09-04-2005, 02:10 PM
"The 'fuck of my life' will be the one that kills me." - Nelson Rockefeller to Megan Marshak, January 1979.

FBR
09-04-2005, 02:12 PM
"The 'fuck of my life' will be the one that kills me." - Nelson Rockefeller to Megan Marshak, January 1979.

Damn, and I was just about to add that pithy comment to my signature line and attribute it to Yoda ;)

FBR

FBR
09-04-2005, 02:51 PM
I suspect MW could have "negotiated" the price down even further had he tried. Because to all indications Ms J's interest in MW is not just monetary, the POP index in his area really doesnt apply. Kinda similar on this end with Miss D.

When she first approached me about OTC, she quoted $250 which I assumed to be for an hour or so of her time. "Thats just for oral" she said "No fucking". We were in the mddle of a hot LD at the time so my negotiating skills were subjugated to Pulsating Penis Syndrome (PPS...a real illness in Junkiedom) :P I didnt ask if that included the hotel room, which would be the case in an incall escort encounter. We wound up having a late lunch and then heading off to the local Holiday Inn, which I paid for BTW. True to her word, it was "just" oral but it was some of the hottest 69 action I've ever had. If I'm not mistaken I wrote a TR/HG about it ::) Total time together was a couple of hours or so.

That was in February, '04. Since then, the price has drifted upwards a bit, voluntarily on my part. But so have the associated activities during the OTC's. And since I have a great deal of fondness for Miss D (not RIL but not too far away either) ROI doesnt really come into play.

FBR

yoda57us
09-04-2005, 04:31 PM
"The 'fuck of my life' will be the one that kills me." - Nelson Rockefeller to Megan Marshak, January 1979.

Sporty: Where do you FIND this stuff?:O

Jenny
09-04-2005, 07:35 PM
And by the way:

i wouldn't necessarily assume she isn't too bright. people (customers and strippers are guility of this as well sometimes) often assume that strippers and prostitutes think and behave alike. in my experience, that simply isn't true. strippers tend to be very extremely sensitive about any hint, comment, implication or inference about selling their body when compared to an escort. it's like anything else in the sex industry. if one girl does something another isn't comfortable doing. they set up lines of demarcation and start clawing each other eyeballs out.

of course, MW is just after the pussy, but perhaps she took the $300 because in part because of the chemistry and MW's game gave her the impression that she's not a whore by feeding her attention, adulation and the idea that he respects or cares about her. so, she thinks it's true and she takes a lower price because she doesn't want to think of herself as a whore and she doesn't want want MW to think she's one either. i don't know if that happened in this case, but i've seen the phenomenon before.

I think this is exactly what Evan means - and is certainly part of what I mean - when I say she is not too bright. Like - how delusional and stupid do you have to be if you don't see taking money for sex as... well, as taking money for sex? and you can enjoy it as much as you want, and power to you, but you can ALSO get the going market rate. It's just beyond silliness to accept LESS money with the rationale that it makes you less hookery. At least - you know. That's the way that I would do it (if I didn't have that thing about saliva).

As per expecting you guys to get worked up over MW's DJ friend - I can even get if you just don't care. But I can't understand for the life of me this continued insistence that the DJ is in fact a great guy and I certainly find the insinuations - or indeed outright statements - that strippers deserve to be manipulated and/or lied to because they are strippers to be wildly contentious and, honestly, pretty stupid.

evan_essence
09-05-2005, 02:11 AM
Like - how delusional and stupid do you have to be if you don't see taking money for sex as... well, as taking money for sex? and you can enjoy it as much as you want, and power to you, but you can ALSO get the going market rate. It's just beyond silliness to accept LESS money with the rationale that it makes you less hookery.Yeah, after all, it's not the offering of extras that hurts those who don't offer them in or out of the club, it's the price undercutting. Probably seemed obvious to everyone else, but I usually only think of the issue in terms of consistency in what's offered at a certain franchise, like the McDonalds menu being the same everywhere. Now I'm thinking, hell, it wouldn't hurt me any if another dancer offered HJ, BJ or FS at the same place I'm working, as long as she priced it proportionately when compared to a lower level of service. And really, OTC ought to cost a lot more than the LD area.

How do we get the POP up where it belongs? I'd love to see it driven way up to create a POP bubble like the price of gas. Unfortunately, I suppose the Federal seX Trade Commission (FXTC) would investigate any POP gouging. We could deny any complicity, however, and claim the problem was too many guys rushing in to top off our tanks.

-Ev

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 05:27 AM
Now I'm thinking, hell, it wouldn't hurt me any if another dancer offered HJ, BJ or FS at the same place I'm working, as long as she priced it proportionately when compared to a lower level of service. And really, OTC ought to cost a lot more than the LD area.

Your angst is in the pricing, but you have to accept the implicit value of "he cares about me" and "I'm really not a ho" and "I love cock." :)

Rath
09-05-2005, 07:59 AM
I think it's just wrong to say that strippers who selectively "date" a few customers are deluded for thinking they aren't hookers, and to say they're stupid for charging below market rates.

First, the rates. I would think that a component of a prostitute's rate is a risk premium. Whatever screening method she uses, she doesn't have that great an ability to screen out johns who could be dangerous and abusive. Strippers who only "date" customers they've gotten to know pretty well over a decent period of time are in a much better position to protect themselves in this regard. I'd also imagine there's less of an "ick" factor in only selling sex to guys you know pretty well already and have a large hand in choosing, as opposed to complete strangers.

That's from the stripper's perspective. From the customer's prospective, look at the difference in what you have to go through beforehand in order to strike a deal. With a prostitute, you pick up the phone, give some info, make an appointment, and there you are. With the kind of strippers we're talking about, you establish a relationship over a period of weeks or even months, you spend money in the club, and then if you're lucky you get to "date" her -- at her convenience, not yours. Why wouldn't you fairly pay less to the stripper?

The selectivity I referred to above also shows why I don't think these girls are completely deluded in denying they're prostitutes. Prostitutes can have varying degrees of selectivity, but the fact remains that their basic job is to fuck guys they don't know. They can't turn away that many potential johns, or else they're out a job. The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism). I don't think these girls are completely on Mars if they don't think of themselves as full-scale prostitutes.

(I hope it goes without saying that none of the foregoing is meant to imply that I think these strippers are "better" than prostitutes. In some ways, I respect prostitutes more for being braver and more upfront. I just think Evan and Jenny are being a bit unfair here.)

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 08:31 AM
Well stated, Rath. The social psychology of microeconomics is an emerging field that attempts to explain decisions that are not purely rational in a monetary reward sense.

Jenny
09-05-2005, 08:32 AM
First, the rates. I would think that a component of a prostitute's rate is a risk premium. Whatever screening method she uses, she doesn't have that great an ability to screen out johns who could be dangerous and abusive. Strippers who only "date" customers they've gotten to know pretty well over a decent period of time are in a much better position to protect themselves in this regard. I'd also imagine there's less of an "ick" factor in only selling sex to guys you know pretty well already and have a large hand in choosing, as opposed to complete strangers.
So you are arguing that strippers may charge less because they "know" their customers. Well - you are assuming here that knowing someone actually makes them more palatable. And that you actually know someone through a strip club. I don't think there is less of an ick factor because you know someone. And, honestly, I don't think the ick factor has anything to do with it. You can be all sorts of hot for your clientele and STILL get the market rate. If you want to be not a hooker, you can fuck them for free. And if you want the cash you can get the going rate. It still seems stupid to accept less money and then rationalize it to yourself. I would like to point out that I personally don't know any girls who do this. The girls I know who exchange heavy contact or sex for cheap are doing it because either A) they are too drunk to make good decisions or B) they believe this is the best they can do because they are not savvy neogotiators or it is all they have to offer. I have never seen a girl who was like "Well, why don't you only pay me $200 so I'm not really exchanging sex for money. Except that I am. So I'm hoping for some boost in "morality" by only accepting a little money. Plus I just love cock." I think this may be an urban myth.

Incidentally - in terms of risk premium. The guys that seek out prostitutes don't tend to be rapists and meanies. The rapists and meanies tend to go home and beat their wives. Like I know there are serial killers and such that have targetted prostitutes, but in general. And, of course, because in Canada prostitution has never been illegal (granted it's not illegal in kind of complicated way, but it's still not illegal) the risk is not really as great - like the prostitute can go to the police just as readily as anyone else.


That's from the stripper's perspective. From the customer's prospective, look at the difference in what you have to go through beforehand in order to strike a deal. With a prostitute, you pick up the phone, give some info, make an appointment, and there you are. With the kind of strippers we're talking about, you establish a relationship over a period of weeks or even months, you spend money in the club, and then if you're lucky you get to "date" her -- at her convenience, not yours. Why wouldn't you fairly pay less to the stripper?
Yeah, but I think this is an equally stupid thing to do. Like, seriously - I have all the ego in the world, but I do not get that a guy would come into my club and spend months working his way into my pants (this is excluding the guys that think they love you. Because you know. To them you're special) when he can open the yellowpages and get the same thing in 30 minutes for way less than what he has spent on me (because I am bright and I have never let a customer finger me for the price of a drink. Not when I know perfectly well that I can get 2 drinks). This is, incidentally, why dancers are suspicious of guys who offer like $20 000 to sleep with them, and why they tend to say no without thinking about it. Because they're like "yeah, right. And I bet you've got a bridge to sell me".


Prostitutes can have varying degrees of selectivity, but the fact remains that their basic job is to fuck guys they don't know. They can't turn away that many potential johns, or else they're out a job. The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism). I don't think these girls are completely on Mars if they don't think of themselves as full-scale prostitutes.
See - I think the basic job of a prostitute is to have sex for money. Full stop. I don't think the clientele's status of ickability of familiarity have a lot to do with it. I think there could be some room for debate around professional girlfriends, but that would largely be because their job is much, much bigger and more demanding than having sex with the guy. I'm not saying that the girl is lying if she still says "I'm a dancer" instead of "I'm a hooker" when someone asks her what she does - but I do think it is hopelessly stupid if she believes that taking less money makes her less of a hooker. Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?


(I hope it goes without saying that none of the foregoing is meant to imply that I think these strippers are "better" than prostitutes. In some ways, I respect prostitutes more for being braver and more upfront. I just think Evan and Jenny are being a bit unfair here.)
I wouldn't say that prostitutes are either braver or more upfront. I think they definitely have point though, in that a guy can't walk in and sample them for the price of a beer. I mean, he has to buy all the way the first time. This is one of the reasons they don't think we're bright. And really, I think I was the harsh one.

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 08:51 AM
I do think it is hopelessly stupid if she believes that taking less money makes her less of a hooker. Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?

I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.

This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem. :-\

Jenny
09-05-2005, 09:05 AM
I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.

This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem. :-\

Okay so "wanting something if you can't be with the guy" - right now we're supposing that a woman who really, really likes a guy but can't have him, is going to, instead, occasionally fuck him for money, at a discount. Am I the only one to whom that particular model does not make sense? If you want the guy but can't have him and you are evidently not the kind of person to just buck the fuck up and move on, then go ahead and fuck him (although I think we can already safely assume that the guy who doesn't want her is probably not going to want her more afterwards). And you want to charge him for this? Alllriiight.... I don't see how cash comes into that situation, but whatever. I don't know everything. Finally - you are going to charge him at a bargain basement discount... yeah, okay I see this. Because he will probably respect you more if you are a CHEAP hooker.... hmm. Yeah, I'm still lost here.

Secondly - we can suppose that in fact these girls who are fucking at ridiculously discounted rates are doing it, not because they are stupid (my first contention) or because they are drunk (my second) or because it is actually (for whatever reason) the best they can command (my third) but because they have low self esteem... yeah, that sounds better. Very well - I am willing to add a fourth contention - that she has low self-esteem and therefore doesn't BELIEVE that she can command any better.

By the way - are you implying above that they girls who actually fuck at the going rate, or god forbid, just dance at the going rate (oh, I'm sorry - if we are doing away with euphemisms - "grind on guys cocks" at the going rate) are the one's NOT "being themselves"? Like, somehow, being the slightest bit savvy and getting the market value for your service adds up to duplicitous character?

yoda57us
09-05-2005, 10:12 AM
Not wishing to oversimplify but, again, sex for money is sex for money. The selection process of either the buyer or the seller is pretty much irrelevant once the act is taking place or when the bill is being paid. Many participants on both the buying and the selling side try and find ways to justify their actions in order to feel less like a "whore" or a "loser who has to pay for sex". If some choose to use the amount charged for the act as an indicator of how severe the act may be that's their business. It's stupid logic but that works for some people.

The act of exchanging sex for money is prostitution as far as the dictionary is concerned. Legalities and moral implications aside that's what it is - weather you are a streetwalker, a call girl, an escort, a dancer who does OTC, a dancer who does FS in VIP or a dental hygienist who meets clients in hotel rooms (don't laugh, it happened to me and she was really good).

I wouldn't consider any one group of women who engage in prostitution to be any braver or smarter than another. Dancers get stalked every day by "normal" customers. Many escorts demand extensive "real life" contact info on their customers and check an ID as soon as you walk in the door. I have a dancer friend who meats guys for sex without even knowing their last names

All Good Things
09-05-2005, 10:15 AM
The kind of strippers we're talking about here, in contrast, will only "date" guys they affirmatively choose to (for whatever reason -- I'm not supporting some customers' delusional posts here that it's all about their sexual magnetism).

Yeah, I was afraid that post could be misunderstood.

The point of that post was different, anyway -- to emphasize that a customer's "failure" in the real world was responsible for a certain hostility manifested toward other customers inside the club. This was a subtle psychological observation that I should have explained more clearly.

On the broader subject, it might be helpful to clarify our terms when discussing OTC activities.

"Date" = Pay for Play (MW's catch and release program, for example). Money is one of the primary factors here, but as you and others have pointed out, it's not the only one. Familiarity, sense of connection, and yes, sexual magnetism, curiosity and dramatic tension are all at work, too.

Date = No pay, No way. A "real" date. Here, there is an inverse relationship between money and the degree to which the relationship is "real." (Insert obligatory "you pay one way or the other" comment here). It's probably fair to say that sexual magnetism plays a much stronger role here.

Now these two concepts are usually parallel lines -- they do not intersect -- but maybe I'm just trying to convince myself of this because of the bizarro world implications of a massive collision between the two universes. ::)

yoda57us
09-05-2005, 10:38 AM
I know a cute nurse who felt that very selective "dating" at less than market value was different than hooking. And she's right. There's a combination of feelings and wanting something if you can't be with the guy.

Um, yeah, whatever definition she wants to apply is fine if it helps her when she looks in the mirror. The act is what it is however.




This is the weakness of the stripclub business model. Some girls have to be themselves with real feelings, including infatuation and low self-esteem. :-\

There is no weakness in the business model Sporty. The breakdown is in people and in human nature. The model works - strip clubs and their owners make money. The dancer model may have to be a bit different since, unlike the fat bald owner in the back room counting the money, the dancer actually has to market herself to the guys out on the floor with cash in their hands. Lots of different approaches work and real feelings can be one of them. Unfortunately infatuation and low self-esteem usually don't work....at least, not for the dancer.;)

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 10:54 AM
Okay so "wanting something if you can't be with the guy" - right now we're supposing that a woman who really, really likes a guy but can't have him, is going to, instead, occasionally fuck him for money, at a discount. Am I the only one to whom that particular model does not make sense?

You understand the obverse model: a RIL knows a dancer has a BF, but he offers lots of money to occasionally take her to dinner. Does that particular model make sense? Yes, if you understand the social psychology of the decision.

You might say the RIL should "just buck the fuck up" and find an alternative at the market price (but NOT, God forbid, below the market price). :O

Katrine
09-05-2005, 11:00 AM
Well, the 2-3 bill range for OTC isn't a myth based on my own personal experience and the experience of other guys I trust (of which there are only a small handful). I've paid two before (several times in fact with my last ATF ranging in "time" of 2-4 hours), was once quoted $250 for 1.5 hours by another (but never went through with it), and recently negotiated 3 bills with one dancer (but then got cold feet, so to speak, when I realized that most others were paying in the 2-250 range with that dancer...stupid me, especially since I was actually kinda proud that I negotiated down from the original 5 bills she quoted me...that and some other issues had me ignoring her phone calls. :P )


I was talking about myself personally, and what I've been able to charge, not the skanks from Joy that you fuck (not that I'm any less a skank than they are, just a more costly skank :O). And I can't believe you got cold feet over 50 fucking bucks. If you want to screw a chick and get a reasonable rate, then go for it. I think you like saving money more than you like sex with women. What do they call your type, stingysexuals? :P

Jenny
09-05-2005, 11:00 AM
^^^
Okay, but you are right now mixing up the supplier and the consumer. You can't screw around with that dynamic and expect it to make sense.

And it is perfectly normal for the consumer (the RIL or the prostitute's client) to seek out something below the market rate. For him (or her) that would be called a "deal." That is why I didn't say that the client in question was stupid or drunk for offering below market value.

Katrine
09-05-2005, 11:12 AM
You understand the obverse model: a RIL knows a dancer has a BF, but he offers lots of money to occasionally take her to dinner. Does that particular model make sense? Yes, if you understand the social psychology of the decision.

You might say the RIL should "just buck the fuck up" and find an alternative at the market price (but NOT, God forbid, below the market price). :O

That's why he's RIL, because he's an idiot. I place him at the same level of stupidity as I do Miss J and any other dancer who consistently undercuts in terms of extras or OTC. Both parties are deluded, because they aren't honest with themselves about their goals. But everyone is receiving at least some benefit for a short time, until said RIL walks into the stripclub and mows down the dancer and half the staff. THAT'S when things get sticky......

I don't need to repeat myself to you Sporty, you are totally without clue, but I think you'll be ok, and some young women are profiting decently from your good intentions, so I'll let you live this time. ;)

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 11:13 AM
^^^
Okay, but you are right now mixing up the supplier and the consumer. You can't screw around with that dynamic and expect it to make sense.

And it is perfectly normal for the consumer (the RIL or the prostitute's client) to seek out something below the market rate. For him (or her) that would be called a "deal." That is why I didn't say that the client in question was stupid or drunk for offering below market value.
Huh? Let me make my example more concrete:

Suppose the consumer (RIL) offer the supplier (dancer) $1000 to go to a fine restaurant with him, because she has a BF and he knows he has to pay more than market rate to get the "date." Is he stupid or drunk? Does he have low self-esteem? Suppose he's worth $20 million?

Suppose a dancer bakes cookies and brings some in a bag for me. Is that an act of affection or is she stupid? Should I think of her as a kind person or a pathetic loser? How does it work in Jenny's world?

Katrine
09-05-2005, 11:17 AM
Huh? Let me make my example more concrete:

Suppose the consumer (RIL) offer the supplier (dancer) $1000 to go to a fine restaurant with him, because she has a BF and he knows he has to pay more than market rate to get the "date." Is he stupid or drunk? Does he have low self-esteem? Suppose he's worth $20 million?

Suppose a dancer bakes cookies and brings some in a bag for me. Is that an act of affection or is she stupid? Should I think of her as a kind person or a pathetic loser? How does it work in Jenny's world?

I'm not Jenny, but I'm giving you my opinion anyway. Your cookie analogy is logically flawed. I'll let Jenny explain its weakness since I'm really tired of this thread.

aggieed
09-05-2005, 11:26 AM
I was talking about myself personally, and what I've been able to charge, not the skanks from Joy that you fuck (not that I'm any less a skank than they are, just a more costly skank :O). And I can't believe you got cold feet over 50 fucking bucks. If you want to screw a chick and get a reasonable rate, then go for it. I think you like saving money more than you like sex with women. What do they call your type, stingysexuals? :P

You liked writing that...makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, does it? ::)

Katrine
09-05-2005, 11:34 AM
You liked writing that...makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, does it? ::)

I'm only mean to you because you refuse to meet me in real life. I feel rejected. You've won. Really. {extends olive branch}

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 12:11 PM
...recently negotiated 3 bills with one dancer (but then got cold feet, so to speak, when I realized that most others were paying in the 2-250 range with that dancer...stupid me, especially since I was actually kinda proud that I negotiated down from the original 5 bills she quoted me...that and some other issues had me ignoring her phone calls. :P

That's the kind of honesty that makes SCJ great.

If a dancer makes an offer, I always negotiate as if I know her lowest rate, then I use some ridiculous number as a deal breaker.

Me: "You did a lawyer for $100."
Dancer: "No I didn't. I swear to God I didn't."

You always have to break off negotiations in the first round. Then she wonders who's telling stories about her. You get lots of interesting confessions that way, which is almost more fun than the act. :)

Delany
09-05-2005, 02:59 PM
They should be paying a lot more to these girls just for the hurl factor. hmmm, maybe a new catch phrase for unattractive men. On the Hurl Factor Scale he is a 9.

Rath
09-05-2005, 04:39 PM
But that's my point, Delany.

The girls I'm talking about, through selectivity, get to minimize or even eliminate the Hurl Factor (for them).

(And to be clear, I'm not saying they find the guys they choose to "date" wildly attractive -- just not repulsive.)

So why shouldn't they charge less than an ordinary prostitute, who doesn't get to be so selective?

Rath
09-05-2005, 04:49 PM
Just out of curiosity though - would you think that a secretary who occasionally had sex for money (like as in cash for service, not a boyfriend that gives her presents) would be equally non-delusional?

It depends. If she was extremely selective, and only had sex for cash with a few guys she could convince herself she "liked" on some level, then yeah I think she'd be equally non-delusional.

Please note I'm not saying these women are COMPLETELY non-delusional. Only that I don't think the distinction they're drawing is one without a difference.

Here's a better way to put it, stolen from a guy named Wwanderer posting on another board. Everybody gets all up in arms saying that as soon as a woman accepts cash for sex, she's a prostitute, as if that proves some point. But you can correctly categorize both a tiger and a house tabby as "felines". All the important and useful information, however, lies in what makes them different, not in whatever similarities they may have.

Finally, I never said that charging less than the market makes someone less a prostitute. Maybe someone else did. Although I do think these girls see themselves as getting both monetary and non-monetary compensation, which I think makes them feel less like full-out prostitutes. (OK: I know you and Delany and Evan and others will think I'm being deluded.)

SportsWriter2
09-05-2005, 05:12 PM
I do think these girls see themselves as getting both monetary and non-monetary compensation, which I think makes them feel less like full-out prostitutes.

Hooters waitresses are JV strippers. Strippers who "date" customers selectively are JV prostitutes. Whatever. :-\

yoda57us
09-05-2005, 05:31 PM
I've never paid a woman for sex who called HERSELF a prostitute-this includes real pros, OTC dancers and a few civilians in between. The difference between a $300 an hour escort and a dancer or any other non-full timer is simply that the escort is not trying to fool herself about who she is or what she does for a living.

We could argue for days-and probably will-about when a woman crosses the line from engaging in acts of prostitution to BEING a prostitute. I don't think the definition is all that important. What is important is that no one involved is fooling themselves about what they are involved in. I think that, long term, the head-games and denial can do more damage than the acts performed.

Moneywise
09-05-2005, 06:41 PM
Oh this cross is killing me.

Moneywise
09-05-2005, 06:42 PM
The sun is baking my blood.

Moneywise
09-05-2005, 06:44 PM
Damn! I go on a little roadie and return to 4 more pages debating the finer points of my HG. This thread has officially given me the heebie jeebies.

Yes Sporty. The nails through my wrists & ankles are beginning to sting a bit. ;)

If you all have issues with this HG wait until I type out what happened to me at 1:17am EST today. Most call it Labor Day. It lived up to its reputation for me personally. On Sunday morning I made a trip east to take care of some family business. I've just driven 10 hours back home from my other home on the east coast and am dog tired.

I arrived Sunday evening around 6pm. After spending some time with family I went out alone at around 12 midnight. I made it back to my mother's house to rest my head at 4am. I was back up at 9am and on the road by 9:30 after having a nice home cooked breakfast. Between 1:17am and 3:02am something happened that totally blew mind.

Hmm? Why the precise times? I'll let the blue site vets answer that one. For now I need to rest my head. It has truly been a long day. However, something happened this morning that made a 10 hour drive home feel like 8. :O

HG forthcoming. Just when I thought nothing could ever top the rush of hooking up with Ms. J...

(readying my defenses for the barrage that will follow this HG)

I'll be posting it in the "official" HG section created by Chili. The weirdness of the growing pages in this thread prevent me from posting any HGs here. This HG doesn't involves the pope.. oops I mean P... so it shouldn't ruffle too many feathers. ;)