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evan_essence
09-20-2005, 07:50 AM
Ok, I can see that I need to clarify something here before I get ratted on to the pink side and am banned for life... ALL DANCERS ARE NOT WHORES AND MOST ARE CLEAN AND PURE AS THE DRIVEN SNOW. OK?
There's your Pink Side Safety Disclaimer. You're now covered under the Pink Side Monolithic Mindset.
:)
A breath of fresh air! :worship:

The irony is that "Girls who do more than I do are immoral, and those who think I am immoral are judgmental" is the norm here. There seems to be an inordinate difficulty in dealing with reality.A breath of fresh air? No, it's the same ol' stale accusation that a few people persistently bandy about here. Someone please point me to the posts on the pink side that say extras aren't taking place in strip clubs or that their prevalence isn't increasing because I apparently missed those. Honestly, it would be a breath of fresh air if the pink side were referenced in this forum in a proportion no greater than that of the references to the blue side appearing on the pink side. Never gonna happen because a few too many people here enjoy mischaracterizing the discussions over there rather than simply focusing on the topic at hand.

-Ev

MinahSky
09-20-2005, 08:16 AM
First off, I certainly hope the post above wasn't a swipe at me (and if it is, so be it). I respect the pink side and the kind of conversations that are held there. However, being an American and all, I like my freedom of speech and choose to go to a place that it is welcomed. It was made perfectly clear to me long ago when I originally joined the pink side (and found this side by mistake) that frank and honest conversations about sex connected in any way with SC's was not going to go over well there. Many of the comments that I have made here would have gotten me in trouble over there. That's why I make them here.

I don't know why this "side" has to reference the pink side any more than the pink "side" references it.

And if anyone missed it (because obviously some have-and mercifully, some haven't), the comment about being ratted on to the pink side was SARCASTIC.

See, if I was in England, I wouldn't have had to explain that... (See? I made a funny.)

For some reason, I get into it with ladies even on the internet and we're not competing for customers (and I can SWEAR on a stack of bibles in front of the Pope that I didn't do a damn thing wrong). I might as well go to work if this is what's going to happen.

The point of the posts above (and if you check the pink side, I made the SAME EXACT POINT THERE at the exact time it was warranted) is that some call the extras girls names forgetting that the moment someone finds out you're a dancer even in the most chaste of circumstances, you're a cock-sucking, drugged out whore in their eyes as well. It's easy to miss the stones being thrown at your glass house when you're so busy throwing them at others...

Susan Wayward
09-20-2005, 08:37 AM
True, true, 90% of the country thinks we're hookers. But the customers only hope we are.

The things I don't like about working in a club where extras happen is the assumption of customers that 1) we all do it and 2) it's O.K. to proposition all of us. Like the jackass who exposed himself to me last week. That's just not right, and while he's got problems if he thinks that's reasonable behavior, I also, just a tiny bit, blame the girl who danced for him earlier who was O.K. with it. (But not a lot; he still should have had more common sense).

Back to the original topic, kind of, I also have a problem with the low low prices in-club extras girls charge. I think that they should at least get more of a reward for the risk and that they're poor businesswomen. I don't think they're bad people because they do extras. I think they're kind of dumb at worst, and for sure some of them are totally desperate for money for various reasons. But some of them just don't think they can earn any other way. I don't think they even try.

yoda57us
09-20-2005, 09:26 AM
Back to the original topic, kind of, I also have a problem with the low low prices in-club extras girls charge. I think that they should at least get more of a reward for the risk and that they're poor businesswomen. I don't think they're bad people because they do extras. I think they're kind of dumb at worst, and for sure some of them are totally desperate for money for various reasons. But some of them just don't think they can earn any other way. I don't think they even try.

I agree. I think a lot of hardcore extras girls have either gotten lazy or just plain given up on earning money any other way. Unfortunately, I also think that the hiring practices in many clubs make an increase in extras innevitable. Long ago, n a galxy far away, girls who performed full service ITC actually had a price list and The Holly Grail was at the top. Nowadays, lady's who give it up are often times doing it for the going rate of a VIP room or a few dances. The girls that I've gotten extras from have never even ASKED if I wanted them. Actually, I turn down the ones who come up and whisper "ya wanna fuck?" in my ear.

xdamage
09-20-2005, 11:14 AM
Back to the original topic, kind of, I also have a problem with the low low prices in-club extras girls charge.


Well the original topic was after receiving the holy grail do you guys come back repeatedly or grow bored after a few times.

But not surprisingly because the word "extras" or "holy grail" or "FS" came up the topic was derailed into hooking, what is/isn't extras, extras are nasty, "we aren't hookers" etc.



I don't think they're bad people because they do extras. I think they're kind of dumb at worst, and for sure some of them are totally desperate for money for various reasons. But some of them just don't think they can earn any other way. I don't think they even try.

But of course you know the irony is this is the exact same mentality that most of society has about strippers. They figure you can't make your money using your brain, you must be desparate for money that you have to stoop to rubbing on guys cocks to make $20, you don't think you could earn it any other way, you don't even try to earn money other ways, etc. Its just a matter of degrees but no real difference in attitude.

Susan Wayward
09-20-2005, 11:19 AM
yeah, yeah, I stated that I knew what the outside world thought, but this board is not the outside world and as such my comments are addressed to this audience and not the whole wide world. And my observations are based on my personal, actual observations at work, not secondhand knowledge, the media, movies, or books. I am addressing their work as strippers within the stripping world, not our common position in the judgement of the public.

Jenny
09-20-2005, 11:26 AM
But of course you know the irony is this is the exact same mentality that most of society has about strippers. They figure you can't make your money using your brain, you must be desparate for money that you have to stoop to rubbing on guys cocks to make $20, you don't think you could earn it any other way, you don't even try to earn money other ways, etc. Its just a matter of degrees but no real difference in attitude.

Actually there is a big difference in attitude. Susan does not think they are dumb because they are providing the service, nor is she assuming that they couldn't make money any other way (in fact, I think she is rather assuming that they COULD). She thinks they are dumb because they undercharge. Note her comments about poor business women, and getting adequate reward for the risk. Now this may be just my experience, but I haven't noticed a lot of social morality arguing that strippers are dumb because the market will easily support $50 a dance and we're doing it for $20.

And Susan - darling - you must have realized by now that as mere industry people, we don't actually know about the industry. The customers are the one's who know all about the industry. We just try to keep up.

xdamage
09-20-2005, 12:23 PM
I don't think they're bad people because they do extras. I think they're kind of dumb at worst, and for sure some of them are totally desperate for money for various reasons. But some of them just don't think they can earn any other way. I don't think they even try.


Actually there is a big difference in attitude. Susan does not think they are dumb because they are providing the service, nor is she assuming that they couldn't make money any other way (in fact, I think she is rather assuming that they COULD). She thinks they are dumb because they undercharge. Note her comments about poor business women, and getting adequate reward for the risk.


You seem to be putting words in her mouth regarding undercharging.

But my gut reaction is you're grasping at logic straws here to try and salvage something that doesn't need to be salvaged. It's common human nature to hold sets of beliefs that don't always completely add up. Humans are like that, our sense of values and morality and how we perceive others is often heavily tuned to align with what benefits us, and where we draw our own lines.

p.s. I also don't think its just about not charging enough. I suspect most strippers would be pissed if the SCs had a menu of (legal) extras for $50 and $100 or $200 (more than you make lap dancing), and the strippers were losing a lot of business to those girls who would do the services that they would feel morally/personally objectionable too.

Unless you are going try and now convince me that women in the sex industry have absolutely no sense of moral or personal limits, and that they draw their lines using nothing but pure economic logic. I am quite sure I know human nature a bit better than that ;)

Jenny
09-20-2005, 12:42 PM
Okay. You must realize that you are selectively quoting. If you read her entire post (which incidentally is about 6 lines longer than what you quoted, so it is hardly onerous), the last part is beautifully contextualized, and obviously supports my point. Not wanting to engage in certain activities does not equal hating, disliking or holding yourself morally above those who do. If there was a menu of legal extras, they would A) not be extra and B) a regulated part of the business, engaged with the same way I engage with dancing. That is I would make a decision about whether I wanted to do it, or not. If I was losing business to those girls, I think I would just find it (similar to how I find it now) to be an example of the market regulating itself. I've already gone on record about how I feel about people bitching because the market doesn't regulate itself the way they think it should. Moreover, I cannot speak for the feeling of every dancer, or most dancers. I feel that I can speak for myself, and I can address the fact that you are taking Susan's post out of context and applying a faulty analogy. That is the limit of my scope here.

You are obsessed with telling everyone that humans are innately hypocritical. This may be so - I realize perfectly well that not every belief is obviously and neatly congruent with every other. However, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

xdamage
09-20-2005, 01:16 PM
Okay. You must realize that you are selectively quoting. If you read her entire post (which incidentally is about 6 lines longer than what you quoted, so it is hardly onerous), the last part is beautifully contextualized, and obviously supports my point.


No I was not selectively quoting. Her other 6 lines didn't need to be quoted.
The 1st part of her point was that not all dancers are hookers and extra girls are bad because they encourage customers to expect it from all dancers. It didn't need to be quoted because all it did was tell us that SW doesn't do extras and that extras girls have a negative impact on her.

It doesn't change my point or that the that the quoted part sounded a lot like the church lady who derides strippers for not using their brains to make money. That should at least make you stop and go "hmmm".




I feel that I can speak for myself, and I can address the fact that you are taking Susan's post out of context and applying a faulty analogy.


Or it is the correct analogy, and you just dont like the way the incongruency makes you feel. In any case SW is obviously a smart girl. She can hold her own against me just fine without needing defense.



This may be so - I realize perfectly well that not every belief is obviously and neatly congruent with every other. However, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

And what do you think the issue at hand is?

The original question is the topic was "Re: After receiving the "holy grail" IN THE CLUB, do you stay with that dancer?" But in short order the thread was hijacked and turned in yet another we are good strippers, and those extras girls are bad/nasty/dirty/dumb thread.

I think the issue at hand is that we should answer the original question, and drop the extras girls are bad/nasty/dumb/dirty whatever topic this being turned into (or start it up in a separate thread if it must be started again).

SportsWriter2
09-20-2005, 01:22 PM
The question posed by this thread was answered most recently in post #36.

To continue on that thread, I sometimes get tired of the provider even when the extras come at no additional charge. :-\

Jenny
09-20-2005, 01:42 PM
^^^
Lol
Indeed. Sometimes my roommate does like to remind that it is not my lone responsibility to correct every stupid thing that is written on the internet.

MinahSky
09-20-2005, 02:07 PM
Thanks for attempting to wrangle this thread back where it started. Once again, I keep forgetting that not everyone thinks like me and that believing that since it's a given that extras happen in and around many SC's ( I started out in a bikini club and the girls would take the men outto their cars, service them then come back inside) , that it would stay on track...

That said, I believe that part of the problem with staying with a dancer you've done the do with is: if she charges more than the cost of dances and someone else does the do and doesn't charge extra . Now, that is only applicable in clubs in which dancers have to share what they make with the club (such as here in Los Angeles where the club gets a portion of each dance and/or VIP). Some places, like in Vegas, the girls pay a fee when they walk in and then what they make is theirs. Doing extras is simply another way to get more of the custies money. I say this because it seems to be normal that dancers in clubs that don't have to pay out of their own money to kind of make their own deals with custies, such as an hour of dances for $250, if they would normally be $350.

I would like to end this post dangerously by stating that part of the problem with some extras girls is that they do it simply for the amount of the dances/VIP. This makes it hard (no pun intended) for the ladies that don't do extras to get dances, since many men would choose a BJ/HJ/FS over just dances.


MANY MEN, NOT ALL MEN.

***Disclaimer*** These are the thoughts and opinions of MinahSky. Not the out and out truth, not the Gospel according to John, simply MinahSky's God-given right to speak her mind in a forum such as this. She is well aware that she has no place to judge others. Thank you.

miabella
09-20-2005, 03:03 PM
well, to get back on topic, i've worked almost exclusively in houston, where extras are a regular part of the strip club environment. as such, men come in often expecting to develop ATF relationships with 'preferred providers' of extras. at least at the club i was most recently at, the guys who got the holy grail after a couple of visits were happy to continue visiting that girl as long as she worked at that club. some of those guys would get extras from other girls if their favoritest one wasn't available, but overall, the dynamic was very similar to dancers with regulars that just want dances.

although i will say a few of the guys who got the holy grail and got into the habit of it also would try to play for freebie extras or discounted extras. for some reason it was relatively rare, because in the dressing room, everyone was very quick to note customers who cheaped out on extras or dances and extras-related payment issues were rarely mentioned.

but this is all based off running into other girls' regulars and how people would explain their regulars to others.

as an aside, and possibly worth noting, all the guys who came to have extras ATFs were very large. but the 2-3 regulars of non-extras dancers who never received the grail were of normal build. and they came by slightly less often. anyhow.

xdamage
09-21-2005, 06:48 AM
Thanks for attempting to wrangle this thread back where it started. Once again, I keep forgetting that not everyone thinks like me and that believing that since it's a given that extras happen in and around many SC's ( I started outin a bikini club and the girls would tak , that it would stay on track...


Sure, and hopefully we can move past the never ending and non-resolvable discussion about are extras bad and answer the specific question.



I would like to end this post dangerously by stating that part of the problem with some extras girls is that they do it simply for the amount of the dances/VIP. This makes it hard (no pun intended) for the ladies that don't do extras to get dances, since many men would choose a BJ/HJ/FS over just dances.


It's not really a new problem. It's an ongoing scale. There was a time when exotic dance clubs were places you looked from a distance but not touched (or at least that was the way the law dictated it should be). Slowly but surely the distance between dancers and customers has been reduced, and most dancers today will allow customers to touch their arms, back, hair, etc., all places which the laws disallow. And it's my experience that it is fairly common that dancers will try to using kissing or DFK or grabbing a guys dick through his pants, and other extras that dancers of old would have been shocked at! By yesterdays definitions most dancers today would have been extras girls. And slowly but surely everyone is desensitized, and slowly but surely if you want to stay in the business and make money you have to do what the other girls are doing or be left behind. I have no doubt that in time strip clubs could end up being the everyday brothels of the future, well at least for a while, until our society does one of its likely turns on itself goes through a wave of being more conservative.

So on a scale where there are varying degrees of extras I have never felt any compulsion to stick to one dancer only because she offered extras. I have felt a compulsion to return for more if she was very sexually compelling and there a good chemistry. But it is short lived. After a while the fact that I'm having to peel off wads of cash from my money clip takes priority and I figure why stick with just one girl if I'm paying?

Your original question though was about staying with the dancer after getting the holy grail inside of the club. I suppose if she is the only one or few doing it then the guy will stick with her, but if many girls are agreeable to FS I think the guys will generally try out the other options. I think you were here while Derek was here. He was right about one thing. The holy grail isn't that holy if you have no particular standards. Its really only a big deal and hard to get if a guy obsesses over getting it from a dancer that won't do it. But once he has it? He is probably going to grow tired of that chase at some point. Probably if he tries or looks he can get it from some other girl (and if not in the club, he may be setting up inside, and doing it outside).



MANY MEN, NOT ALL MEN.

***Disclaimer*** These are the thoughts and opinions of MinahSky. Not the out and out truth, not the Gospel according to John, simply MinahSky's God-given right to speak her mind in a forum such as this. She is well aware that she has no place to judge others. Thank you.

We have to be more politically correct here then in some churches ;)

By the way I think it was clear (or at least it was to me) that you weren't condonding or admonishing extras, nor did you say are doing FS, you were just asking a general question to validate your thinking. Seems like it should be a simple thing to answer that without needing to put up multiple disclaimers (but I guess not).

evan_essence
09-21-2005, 07:43 AM
First, I'd like to remind everyone that the thread veered off topic when more than one person started ragging on the pink side. No one but me decried that twist until the conversation expanded to where those now crying off topic didn't want it to go, but not when it went off topic with the first comments those now crying off topic apparently didn't have a problem with. This thread has a perfectly viable topic without also introducing complaints about the pink side, so if you don't want to open that additional topic up for discussion, don't bring it up. And for heaven's sakes, if you do bring it up, don't then feel that replying to it is off topic without declaring the original comments are off topic as well.

So I guess we're all agreed that the pink side complaints were, at the very least, off topic, and that we don't want to argue in this thread whether or not they were also a mischaracterization. At least, that's what I'm surmising considering how desperately those who didn't see that as being off topic in the first place now want to stay on the original topic rather than expand the topic to a two-sided discussion of the issue they brought up.

-Ev

Asbat
09-21-2005, 08:17 AM
so far i have stayed with the girls. but my defintion of the holy grail is a bit different than the norm.

dlabtot
09-21-2005, 11:02 AM
The question posed by this thread was answered most recently in post #36.

To continue on that thread, I sometimes get tired of the provider even when the extras come at no additional charge. :-\

Yeah, that's what sucks about the blue side. It seems like almost every thread I am interested in ends up devolving into one of three arguments between the same few people.

On topic: I am just glad that I don't go to a club where that would ever happen. If I want FS I will look up 'Escorts' in my handy-dandy Yellow Pages.

xdamage
09-21-2005, 11:19 AM
so far i have stayed with the girls. but my defintion of the holy grail is a bit different than the norm.

I have to tell you man, my first reaction is that guys who think the holy grail is something like "I just want to get to know them" or "I just want her to trust me" are BSing themselves about their own nature. Because usually the unstated part is "I just want her to trust me... because ... I want her to bang me for free" A lo of guys have been brought up with this stupid idea that they need to be "nice", that it's bad to want to fuck the woman you're interested in. That nice guys just want to have a good relationship. There is a lot of crap in there like wanting them to like you, respect you, need you, all kinds of crap that is fine and the stuff long term relationships are made of, but in the end the real holy grail that is driving this is tends to be no different then any other guy, wanting to bang a hot chick and have her like it. Guys work this from one end, women tend to work it from the other (unless that is you are hot yourself and they want to fuck you badly enough, then they will skip over the crap in the middle, but then you dont have to pay those girls $$s to talk with them).

And I'll go out on a limb and be really politically incorrect and say that women tend to know this (sans the dumb ones) that guys ultimately just want to hit it, and they know that once most guys have hit it a few times that they tend to go back into their seeking for new pussy mode. Oh I'm not saying it never happens otherwise. It does. And women are very good about understanding how to keep men coming back for more (if they want to). And really the good hustler in the club plays on that basic want to hit it. The big difference between the PL and the experienced club goer is the PL gives up his $$s for a lot less than the experienced customer. All the women have to do is pass off hints that you might have one chance in a billion of hitting it for free and the PL opens his wallet.

But human nature being what it is, guys tend to grow bored after they have hit it a few times. Throw in the fact that it's costing him $$s, and if your not there with him regularly to keep working on his mind (aka the relationship) he's probably just going to do what guys do, start thinking about banging the next girl that he can.

MinahSky
09-21-2005, 12:38 PM
In my club when I started her in SoCal, there was ONE girl that was doing extras and every man that came in asking for extras would be pointed toward her. Conversely, the ladies would pull you back if they saw you veering towards someone known to be her customer, since he was used to getting the HG. She made A LOT of money because (IMHO) she was the only one. I don't believe it was her looks, because she was old (looked it, too), looked washed and used up-sorry. I think the club kept her around for the reasons of her making money and she was the only one doing it (therfore keeping the rst of the girls able to make good money by simply dancing).

However, when more ladies that didnt' mind doing extras came along that were younger and better looking, that's when the question I posed comes up. I think certain issues come up at that point: the looks of the lady, the amount she charges, what she does, how she does it, etc.

Once the lady makes it known that there is a menu, then the custy is going to sample as many wares as he can (or can afford). If there are multiple ladies with menus to cull from, he's going to sample as many as he can. If all the ladies are on the same level physically, I believe he's going to partake of them all as often as her can and the only thing that will make a difference is who is there when he walks in the door. Who thought that going to strip clubs would involve a complex algorithm? :P

xdamage
09-21-2005, 01:00 PM
If there are multiple ladies with menus to cull from, he's going to sample as many as he can. If all the ladies are on the same level physically, I believe he's going to partake of them all as often as her can and the only thing that will make a difference is who is there when he walks in the door. Who thought that going to strip clubs would involve a complex algorithm? :P

Yea I full agree. If a customer is looking for FS and there are many good looking girls offering it, chances are he is going to sample what he can afford and attracts him. As I said there are the PLs who think its a relationship and maybe they will be true blue or he is so fetished over one girl he doesn't buy from anyone else, but the average guy already has one woman he is exclusive with (as much as the guy is exclusive). If he is looking for FS in the club (or even just to get off with clothes on, or HJ and BJ) chances are any sense of exclusivity he has is reserved for his woman outside of the club, not the ones he is paying direct $$s for.

Nicolina
09-21-2005, 01:02 PM
So, Minah, I think we have an answer for you:

If the sex is good, the custy will stay with that girl...for a little while. Eventually, he'll move on. The definition of "a while" varies considerably, depending on the individuals involved.

***

xdamage: I really must take you to task for your rants here . I find exactly ONE, and only one post in this thread that could be construed as an "extras girls are bad" post (the one by Susan W, nearly 60 posts into the thread.)

I asked about the quality of yoda's encounters. Jenny asked about the logistics of performing extras ITC with a fair amount of discretion. That evolved into a discussion about the purse-carriers vs. the non-purse carriers (an interesting subculture tidbit that is apparently a fairly recent development....back in my day, [i]everyone carried money in a purse....or maybe I just worked with a bunch of hos and never knew it?!?). At that point, there was ONE POST about extras girls vs. non-extras girls. You are the one who seems obsessed with this topic, not the girls over here on the blue side. I think we all understand that extras happen, and most of us are pretty non-judgmental about the whole thing. So....WTF? /:O

You don't like the pink side, you don't have to read over there. Problem solved. I also prefer it over here, for the reasons Minah and others have stated...but I don't go out of my way to deride the girls over there. Minah's original post about the pink side and dancers being pure as the driven snow was funny, and I appreciated the sentiment behind it, but unless I missed a since-deleted post, she wasn't responding to anyone in particular. I don't see any posts from angry pinkies anywhere in this thread. So chill.

That said, since you've brought it up and you seem a little obsessed with the topic, let me address it. There is a HUGE difference between stripping--even in a fairly high-mileage environment--and prostitution. I'm talking about the psychological and emotional ramifications to the provider of each service, as well as the amount of assumed risk. And I'm speaking from personal experience. Women in the sex industry must make a conscious effort to define where their personal boundaries lie. Otherwise, it is far too easy to lose one's moorings, at least temporarily, and the consequences are potentially pretty dire. That is why you see such heated discussions regarding the drawing of these boundaries among the women who post on both sides of this board. I am non-judgmental in general...but for some people, their judgments regarding boundaries are probably essential to their ability to keep those boundaries firmly in place. Do some girls lie on the boards about where their boundaries really are? Probably so...and well they should, since prostitution is illegal and it is never very wise to publicly admit to criminal behavior, even if you are cloaked by some degree of anonymity.


Since you’ve never been in the position of having to draw such boundaries in order to maintain both your sanity and your livelihood intact, I suggest that you could be a little more understanding and less judgmental about the nature of the discussions regarding “extras, ” both here and on the pink side.

Susan Wayward
09-21-2005, 06:13 PM
I am non-judgmental in general...but for some people, their judgments regarding boundaries are probably essential to their ability to keep those boundaries firmly in place.

Bravo. This is so true. Every woman in every aspect of the sex industry defines what, for her, feels good and feels bad, and what she is and is not willing to do. I don't have sex for money or let a series of customers suck on my nipples because I don't want to. I don't like it when a previously clean club's mileage level slips and earning potential is not determined by how attractive, friendly, and hard-working you are, but merely by what you are willing to do. I didn't get into stripping to be a semi-hooker, I got into it to shake my stuff.

And I think the response to the original topic supports my earlier observation; giving it up in the club doesn't guarantee lifelong faithful regulars or more income necessarily. And for crying out loud, I never said extras girls are "bad." I think the ones who undercharge are stupid and/or desperate. I don't judge the fact that they have sex for money; that is fine and dandy and totally acceptable in my moral universe. But doing it for a bare minimum of cash is just so seedy and desperate it depresses me. And yes, that is a judgement. I can live with the whoremongerers and strippers thinking that I am a judgemental person. I judge you all! Quiver before the judgement of a stripper let loose on the internet.

p.s. I wish Kat wasn't on vacation right now.

Nicolina
09-21-2005, 06:46 PM
Just for the record, Susan, I didn't think that you actually said that extras girls were bad in that post...I was just pointing out that your post was the only one in the thread that could possibly be construed as an "extras girls are bad" post.

And I'd rather quiver before your fine ass as you give me a top-notch non-extras lapdance than quiver before your judgment. :P

mr_punk
09-21-2005, 10:57 PM
I had a discussion with another dancer about this. I believe that men simply like new women and that after hitting it a few times will move on (and come back once in a while when nothing else can be gotten). She thinks that this is not true and that men go to their sure thing. So my question is: If you get FS from a dancer, will you continue to patronize only her because you know what you can get or will you seek other avenues of fun?well, you're both correct in a way. i'm always seeking a shiny, new piece of strange. however, what determines whether or not it's a one-shot deal or continuing patronage is strictly based on the stripper's performance. i'd much rather crawl on my hands and knees out of the VIP area in desperate need of an oxygen mask and water than stroll out and think to myself, "yawn, i could have had an V-8.".

For some reason, I get into it with ladies even on the interenet and we're not competing for customers (and I can SWEAR on a stack of bibles in front of the Pope that I didn't do a damn thing wrong). I might as well go to work if this is what's going to happen.DP is like SS. it's everywhere. in any case, it really doesn't matter what a dancer actually does ITC just as long as they maintain to each other that they're not cheap ho's and all strippers give the same McDance. otherwise, biatches will start clawing each other eyeballs out in the dressing room.

Surely if sex were as common as what you guys would lead me to believe surely by this time I would have seen SOME sign of it? Like a errrant penis as I am walking by on my way to the bathroom? Or some girl giving head in the booth across from me? I mean, surely there would be SOMETHING indicating all this illicit sex? Used condoms on the floor? Maybe a condom wrapper?aye, so it's proof ye be wanting lass? did you know that human biological fluids such as semen, saliva, vaginal fluids and urine fluoresce under UV light? so, if you ever find yourself in Houston. may i suggest you take one to TGOSE. although, i also suggest that you wear either a arc welder's helmet or those special googles for viewing nuclear blasts. otherwise, you might permanently damage your retinas from the glare.

I would like to end this post dangerously by stating that part of the problem with some extras girls is that they do it simply for the amount of the dances/VIP. This makes it hard (no pun intended) for the ladies that don't do extras to get dances, since many men would choose a BJ/HJ/FS over just dances.yeah, i've heard the theory before and i think it's nothing, but pure DP. it's no different than when strippers think the "ugly" strippers don't belong in the club. from a customer's POV, he was never the non-extras stripper's customer in the first place. point blank, customers are going to pick and choose dancers for various reasons of their own and not the strippers. futhermore, you girls don't all give the same McDance either. there are a lot of things that some strippers do to hustle an extra $20 out of a customer during a LD that isn't a BJ/HJ/FS (Dispater codes, anyone?) and will start an eyeball clawing contest in the dressing room just the same. it's an old story.

Women in the sex industry must make a conscious effort to define where their personal boundaries lie. Otherwise, it is far too easy to lose one's moorings, at least temporarily, and the consequences are potentially pretty dire. That is why you see such heated discussions regarding the drawing of these boundaries among the women who post on both sides of this board. I am non-judgmental in general...but for some people, their judgments regarding boundaries are probably essential to their ability to keep those boundaries firmly in place. Do some girls lie on the boards about where their boundaries really are? Probably so...and well they should, since prostitution is illegal and it is never very wise to publicly admit to criminal behavior, even if you are cloaked by some degree of anonymity.obviously, any sex worker can draw her personal boundaries where ever she wishes. furthermore, i could care less where a stripper decides to draw her boundaries because i will respect them just as long she respects my boundary as a customer. i really only ask one thing from strippers. which is that all strippers must earn my money. BTW, it's not open to negotiation or compromise. so, if i think a stripper is not earning my money. she's gone without hesitation and i'll still sleep like a baby at night. so, a stripper shouldn't even bother giving me a look or a comment as if i somehow wronged her because she can't earn my money. i'm not running a charity for strippers. there are plenty of other customers in a sc willing to do such a thing and she can go hustle them and there are plenty of strippers willing to indulge me......tis truly a golden age.

xdamage
09-22-2005, 05:32 AM
Just for the record, Susan, I didn't think that you actually said that extras girls were bad in that post...I was just pointing out that your post was the only one in the thread that could possibly be construed as an "extras girls are bad" post.


So it stopped at calling them dumb, and just suggesting they are nasty. Of course everyone avoids calling it outright "bad" because that be would be major politically incorrect and nobody wants to be politically incorrect.

But what's more likely? That strippers are free of the basic human emotions that shape other womens thinking? Or that they have the same emotions and same feelings about women that push boundaries? I'll gamble my money on the later.

Look I understand about the boundaries, and I understand the need to defend them for ones own sanity. I even understand their good reasons for limiting them. But some girls have choosen to push their boundaries further to make money, just like you've pushed some boundaries. And you know what happens when you push boundaries? It offends a lot of women (and men) that think that strippers have allowed the boundaries to be pushed way too far. I'll gamble my money that strippers are fundamentally really not all that different about how they feel about other women who push the boundaries further still.

Of course do what you need to do to keep your own boundaries in place, but I do think people can set boundaries for themselves and do it without having a lot of opinions invested in what others are doing, unless of course what others are doing significantly impiges on us.

It comes down to how honest we are with ourselves about our conflicts of interest and being honest with ourselves that we are fairly self serving. An obsession over that? Maybe but it seems just as likely that most people avoid this aspect of themselves. Because it's fairly painful for most people to accept that they are fundamentally self serving. Nearly impossible for most to think of themselves in this way. Even when people think they are doing things for others, they are getting something out of it if they are honest with themselves, and it's that something they are getting which is what motivates us.

My boundaries serve my self interests. Are they right? Not really all that important. They work for me because all things considered, I have a found a balance of personal safety, conflict limiting with others, and ability to cope with any guilt I might have. Others set their boundaries at different places. For this reason I don't care what extra girls do or escorts because it has basically no negative effect on me. It's the same reason I don't care what strippers do or most people do. Doesn't really affect me so I don't care what balance motivates them to choose those boundaries over some other. That doesn't mean I approve of what they do. I just don't care what they do. If it works for them and doesnt impige on me, fine, it doesn't need my approval or disapproval. I feel the same about stripping. If it works for you, and doesn't negatively affect me (and it doesn't, if anything I benefit) then cool. But I assign no particularly strong belief to the notion that stripping and lap dancing grinding is dramatically different from other sex work. Its dramatically different to the individual, but not really all that different in the big picture.

Jenny
09-22-2005, 07:53 AM
^^^
Dude, really. Why do you have such a hard time believing that anyone is different than you? Why do you have such a hard time believing that Susan (who, indeed, needs no defense - and I take for granted that she understands my interjection not as a paternalistic defense, but as a ringing endorsement and support) and Nicolina and I may think the girls are dumb with being "bad" or feeling superior (except in the rightful way endowed upon us by our obviously superior intelligence?) I think you need to face and deal with the fact that YOU are the one with issues with prostitutes (and strippers for that matter) and, for god's sakes, please, stop projecting that onto us.

And by the way - I think relatively few people who post here actually read the pink side. If you did you would probably see that the only girls arguing about how nasty and bad the extras girls are, are the one's that use words like "cuz" and "b4". Most of the girls - nearly all the "long term posters" have a more comoplicated approach - consciously balancing negative feelings attached to their own work profitability and convenience, with perfectly self-aware analogies with "how the rest of society" sees us. You guys set up this dichotomy that really doesn't exist.

xdamage
09-22-2005, 08:14 AM
^^^
I think you need to face and deal with the fact that YOU are the one with issues with prostitutes (and strippers for that matter) and, for god's sakes, please, stop projecting that onto us.


Won't happen. I think you are in self denial that your feelings about prostitution aren't really all that different then the vast majority's feelings, and that those feelings arent so different from people that feel that way about strippers. You've simply set the morality bar at a different spot.

Jenny
09-22-2005, 08:47 AM
Don’t you think it is kind of interesting that you have three women on this thread alone explaining (some of the quite eloquently I might add – kudos to Nic), in detail and with nuance, their various feeling on prostitution and rather than actually engaging with what they say, you simply dismiss it and then tell us what we are feeling? I don’t know that you even have such expertise in sociology to be even capable of telling me what “women” or “most women” feel about prostitutes; indeed if your method of discerning other people’s opinions and feelings mirror your methods here, I would go so far as to say that you have extremely limited knowledge of anyone’s opinions and feelings except your own.

MinahSky
09-22-2005, 10:58 AM
I understand that not everyone wants any kind of sex in the club. And I get my dances by doing MY thing (not meaning sex), as other ladies do as well. As evidenced here, there are men that do not want sex so ladies that do not do that indeed have a customer base.

However, for those men that would respond to the sex aspect, they would rather go for a VHM-UHM dance than one without it. Please do not forget that some men do want it, but do not ask for it for fear of not getting a dance at all (you all were neophytes at one point). There's this VERY well known SC review site here in Los Angeles, and men go on their to give trip reports and such about the clubs, dancers, etc. In fact, many PL's simply ask who the high(est) mileage ladies are in each club. So perhaps (I'm sure) my thoughts and feelings are colored by this (how could they not be?).

Many men on the site are very honest about giving dancers chances to "perform" and if they do not do so accordingly, dropping them after a certain number of chances. Not many (that is to say that all men that go to SC's in SoCal go to this site) seem to spend money on the ladies that are beautiful yet low mileage. Now get this, there are many beautiful yet very high mileage ladies out here, so looks are not a problem.

What a freakin' Pandora's Box I opened here...

Nicolina
09-22-2005, 11:10 AM
So it stopped at calling them dumb, and just suggesting they are nasty. Of course everyone avoids calling it outright "bad" because that be would be major politically incorrect and nobody wants to be politically incorrect.
She didn't say extras girls were dumb. She said that extras girls who don't charge extra are doing something dumb. It was more a comment on the marketplace and underselling than a passage of judgment upon the girls. At least that's how I read it.

And since when is it politically incorrect to call prostitutes "bad"? Did I miss this lesson in PC Speech 101?



But what's more likely? That strippers are free of the basic human emotions that shape other womens thinking? Or that they have the same emotions and same feelings about women that push boundaries? I'll gamble my money on the later.
You don't understand. We are the women who push boundaries! And we know this. Regardless of where we set our own personal limits, and regardless of our feelings towards other women in the industry who set their limits elsewhere, our relationship to the issue is a little different. That was my point.


Look I understand about the boundaries, and I understand the need to defend them for ones own sanity. I even understand their good reasons for limiting them. But some girls have choosen to push their boundaries further to make money, just like you've pushed some boundaries. And you know what happens when you push boundaries? It offends a lot of women (and men) that think that strippers have allowed the boundaries to be pushed way too far. I'll gamble my money that strippers are fundamentally really not all that different about how they feel about other women who push the boundaries further still.

Did anyone say that they were? No. I simply tried to explain why there is, perhaps, both more emotion and more thought going into discussions about boundaries when those discussions take place among sex workers.

Most 'normals' never come closer to exploring their sex-for-cash boundaries than idly contemplating whether or not they'd fuck Robert Redford for a million bucks (wasn't he the guy in that Indecent Proposal movie?)....or secretly wondering how interested they'd be in that not-so-handsome guy they're dating if he weren't so financially successful.

Strippers explore these boundaries every fucking day. 'Normals' form their opinions on this issue from the outside, and their emotional responses have more to do with the threat that sex workers potentially pose to their relationships than anything else. Sex workers form their opinions on this issue from the inside, based on what they find they are comfortable with and what makes them feel...just...icky. Our emotional responses have more to do with our self-perception than anything else.



Of course do what you need to do to keep your own boundaries in place, but I do think people can set boundaries for themselves and do it without having a lot of opinions invested in what others are doing, unless of course what others are doing significantly impiges on us.

Guess what: If you work as a dancer in a club with lax rules, where some women throw in a BJ free with the fifth lapdance and some do not, then "what others are doing" does significantly affect you! Duh. It affects your livelihood, your personal health and safety, your self-perception, and the way you are perceived by others. Not exactly trivial issues.

When I was dancing, I chose not to worry too much about what other people were doing (and I never worked in a club where extras were commonly performed--at least not to my knowledge). But the reality is that in any club environment, what the competition offers has a direct and profound effect on the other dancers. I can understand why some people would let it bother them.


It comes down to how honest we are with ourselves about our conflicts of interest and being honest with ourselves that we are fairly self serving.

I fail to see the connection. But for the record, I'll say that the smart dancers I've known (including those who post over here on blue) are, IMHO, some of the more honest and self-aware people on the planet.



My boundaries serve my self interests. Are they right? Not really all that important.
Again, I fail to see where anyone has passed any kind of moral judgment on other dancers anywhere in this thread.


They work for me because all things considered, I have a found a balance of personal safety, conflict limiting with others, and ability to cope with any guilt I might have. Others set their boundaries at different places.

I don't think that 'boundaries' for a customer can be compared to boundaries for a sex worker. Beyond the tyranny of your little head, there is really no pressure for you to cross your boundaries. Your boundaries are put in place due to moral concerns (e.g. Does a handjob from a stripper constitute cheating on my wife?) more than practical concerns (which are related to the moral concerns: e.g. If my wife finds out I got a handjob from a stripper, will she leave with the kids and take me for everything I'm worth?) But if you have trouble setting boundaries, you can easily remove yourself from an environment where you might be tempted to cross them.

OTOH, there is constant pressure for a dancer to cross her boundaries: "Oh, come on, nobody will see..." "Candy did it, and she didn't even charge me extra..." "I'll pay you for a double champagne room if you just let me lick your toes for 15 minutes." "Come out to dinner with me. I promise I'm not a psycho, and I'll make it worth your while." "I'll give you a thousand dollars if you just come back to the hotel with me for an hour." And of course, the unspoken but implied plea of the RIL: "Just be my best friend. Let me into your soul. In return, I'll buy you a car, pay off your credit card debt, and take care of your disabled kid's daycare and doctor's bills..."

I could go on forever. Each and every night at work comprises a constant barrage of questions regarding your sex-for-cash boundaries....(and in some cases, your soul-for-cash boundaries. Personally, I'd rather sell sex than my soul. I'd suck dick for money before I'd pretend to be some PL's best friend...but that's just me. See, these boundary issues can be a lot more complex than just "I'll give a handjob, but I won't give a blowjob, and girls who do that are gross.")

It is, as I said, imperative that a dancer (or any sex worker) establishes her boundaries pretty early in the game (even if they later shift or drift). It doesn't really matter where they are. It just matters that she knows where they are. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to navigate the sex industry environment and remain emotionally healthy.




For this reason I don't care what extra girls do or escorts because it has basically no negative effect on me. It's the same reason I don't care what strippers do or most people do. Doesn't really affect me so I don't care what balance motivates them to choose those boundaries over some other.

Again, I would point out that what 'extras girls' do in a club does affect the non-extras girls pretty profoundly. Hence the occasional expression of ill will.



... But I assign no particularly strong belief to the notion that stripping and lap dancing grinding is dramatically different from other sex work. Its dramatically different to the individual, but not really all that different in the big picture.

Well, they are all part of the same entity. The women who post on this board run the gamut from strippers who insist that they are "exotic entertainers" and have nothing to do with the sex industry to those of us who are apt to say "I like to embrace my whore identity."

In reality, not only is the experience of stripping vs. prostitution very different for the individual performing the service, but the perception of each occupation by others is also pretty darn different: I wouldn't hesitate to mention my stripping career at a family get-together, or among my school friends. I'd be much less likely to start a sentence with the words, "Back when I was working as a prostitute...." ::) See the difference there?

Wow....I've completely forgotten what I was arguing about at this point. (But hey, at least I'm willing to admit it :P)

I'd try to wrap it up with some compelling conclusion, but I really have more important work I should be doing.....

Jenny
09-22-2005, 11:17 AM
aye, so it's proof ye be wanting lass? did you know that human biological fluids such as semen, saliva, vaginal fluids and urine fluoresce under UV light? so, if you ever find yourself in Houston. may i suggest you take one to TGOSE. although, i also suggest that you wear either a arc welder's helmet or those special googles for viewing nuclear blasts. otherwise, you might permanently damage your retinas from the glare.

You know, oddly enough, right now I'm wearing a t-shirt that reads "Classy Lassie". No, I kid. Yes, I watch CSI. However - I'm not in Houston. The goings on in Houston have limited impact on me. And believe it or not, some of us who are not in Houston may define industry norms as being either less localized, or localized to a different location. And - keep in mind please that I'm not likely to be wandering through my club with a UV light. And look - seriously. Nobody could possibly recommend that I disregard my own observations from years of experience and instead take the word of a bunch of guys on the internet, at least some of which I already know are lying. That would be a really weird thing to do, and I don't think that believing what I have personally seen over the weird homoerotic stories you guys like to tell each other is burying my head in the sand. I think that is the mark of the sane individual. Keep in mind - we don't have curtains and we don't have a lot of privacy in most of the clubs I've worked in. And - Minah - I'm sorry, but I disagree. I think a girl rubbing her head on a guys crotch would be readily distinguished from the girl giving head. And I am dead certain that any person could tell the difference between the energetic lapdance and fucking (I've never seen it in the club, but I did go to college. I know what it looks like). Note that I am not denying "extras" happen - I just don't think that extras of the variety which involve the guy being unzipped are very widespread.

Rath
09-22-2005, 12:19 PM
I think Jenny and Nicolina are living in a different world than I live in when they say that strippers who provide extras for the same price as other girls provide, um, non-extras are "desperate" or "dumb". (And I wish I lived in their world.)

At the better clubs here in New York, an hour in the Champagne Room costs at least $900 ($500 to the girl, $400 to the club). I think the girls who provide various forms of sex for that rate are pricing realistically. I, personally, think that the girls who charge that rate and don't provide extras are overcharging outrageously. That's just my personal view, of course -- obviously, there are lots of guys who are willing to pay $900 for what the non-extras girls provide. My point is, though, that just because non-extras girls get $900 ($500 to them) for non-extras, that doesn't mean I'm willing to pay more than that for extras. My own price calculus is that I'll pay the $900 (BUT NOT MUCH MORE) for extras (and only a lot less -- if anything at all -- for non-extras).

Moreover, I don't think that a girl who makes $500 an hour (out of $900 spent) for providing extras is "desperate" or "dumb". At the end of the night, she's clearing more than most prostitutes do here (considering such factors as (a) the 60% cut taken by most agencies, (b) the greater ease of doing multiple sessions during a single night in a strip club as opposed to as an outcall escort, and (c) the much lower rates charged at most incall prostitution places as compared to strip clubs). From conversation, I get the feeling that a lot of these girls have consulted their own boundaries and decided that they'd rather make money that way than by hustling and, often, misleading customers into non-extras VIPS. Again, that doesn't make them "desperate" or "dumb". They've simply decided what it is that THEY'RE willing to do to get $500 an hour -- a different set of trade-offs than the non-extras girls are willing to make.

There also is -- or was, before a LE crackdown -- a lively Underground scene in New York. There, oral sex went for $40 a shot, full service for $80 or so. THOSE girls were desperate -- not the mainstream girls keeping $500 out of $900.

Nicolina
09-22-2005, 01:05 PM
I think Jenny and Nicolina are living in a different world than I live in when they say that strippers who provide extras for the same price as other girls provide, um, non-extras are "desperate" or "dumb". (And I wish I lived in their world.)

First, let me point out that I never said that! I never said anyone was desperate or dumb. I simply acknowledged the fact that in the SC environment, each dancer's boundaries (i.e. what she is willing to do for cash) affect her co-workers in some way.

And let me clarify a few things:
1) I danced for about 12 years, but I left the industry in 2000. I don't think extras were as prevalent in most clubs back then--at least not in the markets/clubs where I worked (mostly New England).

2) I've never worked in a high-end NYC club where CR costs a grand. That indeed sounds like an entirely different world. I would have (as Minah might say) been kicked out of those clubs if I wasn't delivering something. In the mid-scale clubs where I worked, CR ran about 200 for half an hour. The club would take about $50. I'm pretty sure that this payscale is more normal outside of NYC and Vegas.

3) I am basing my assertion that 'extras girls' often don't charge extra primarily on what I've learned here from the blueballers. In a thread awhile back, there seemed to be a consensus that in many clubs, the dancers don't say, "I'll do x if you pay me y," but rather they include extras as kind of 'incentive' to customers who buy a sufficient number of lapdances or champagne rooms. I have to admit I was a little baffled by this behavior.

Of course, I am probably stupid for believing what I read on the internet.

I can understand that guys who pay $1000 for a CR might have an expectation of something more than an hour's worth of high-mileage laps. You can certainly pay a lot less for sex in any number of places. And I think the girls who do FS in CR at $500 a pop are being compensated pretty well for their efforts. At that point, though: why even bother going to a stripclub? In a sense, you're not really going to a stripclub. You're going to a brothel. I admit I am sort of nostalgic for the days when there was a finer line drawn between the two.

I'm curious about why you choose to do SC extras rather than doing incall or outcall. Does it somehow seem less hardcore to you, as the customer? Can you sort of fool yourself into thinking that you didn't really pay for sex, you just paid for a champagne room? If you're married, does it feel less like cheating? Is it just more convenient? Are the girls hotter? Do you prefer the experience for some other reason?




There also is -- or was, before a LE crackdown -- a lively Underground scene in New York. There, oral sex went for $40 a shot, full service for $80 or so. THOSE girls were desperate -- not the mainstream girls keeping $500 out of $900.

"THOSE girls" are probably more the norm. From what I gather, the girls who work at PEC and the like aren't "mainstream", they're high-end.

mr_punk
09-22-2005, 01:08 PM
However - I'm not in Houston. The goings on in Houston have limited impact on me. And believe it or not, some of us who are not in Houston may define industry norms as being either less localized, or localized to a different location. well, houston is just one example. believe it or not, you can take a uv light with you to some of the other clubs around this country and get the same results...although, the glow may not be as intense.}:D

And - keep in mind please that I'm not likely to be wandering through my club with a UV light. well, it was just a suggestion. i mean, the proof is in the splooge, right?::)

And - Minah - I'm sorry, but I disagree. I think a girl rubbing her head on a guys crotch would be readily distinguished from the girl giving head. And I am dead certain that any person could tell the difference between the energetic lapdance and fucking (I've never seen it in the club, but I did go to college. I know what it looks like). Note that I am not denying "extras" happen - I just don't think that extras of the variety which involve the guy being unzipped are very widespread.well, believe it or not. Canada isn't the U.S. unlike Canada, our supreme court have never ever looked favorably upon the issue of LD. hell, they barely tolerate nude stage dancing. unlike canada, a U.S. stripper doesn't have to even come close to freeing willy in order to get arrested by LE. so, when you say any person can tell the difference between LD and fucking. well, that may be true up north, but that isn't necessarily the case down here. especially, with the people who make those decisions and can make them stick. so, it would beyond hubristic (talk about retarded) for a U.S. stripper to think that putting her face in a customer's crotch, putting her nipples in his mouth, rubbing his crotch through his pants with her hands or knees, trying to get a guy to splooge in his pants with her ass or putting his cock between her tits through his shorts,etc somehow makes her immume from the consequences because she didn't unzip his pants. and believe it or not, strippers as well as customers work under this false assumption as well.

Rath
09-22-2005, 01:18 PM
3) I am basing my assertion that 'extras girls' often don't charge extra primarily on what I've learned here from the blueballers. In a thread awhile back, there seemed to be a consensus that in many clubs, the dancers don't say, "I'll do x if you pay me y," but rather they include extras as kind of 'incentive' to customers who buy a sufficient number of lapdances or champagne rooms. I have to admit I was a little baffled by this behavior.

Of course, I am probably stupid for believing what I read on the internet.

Just to be clear, I don't like the "I'll do x if you pay me y" thing much myself. And most of the extras I get are from girls I didn't negotiate with them for. Rather, they just come as part of the package I'm getting for the going CR rate. As a customer, you just have to develop a good Sixth Sense for who's going to be willing to give you the kind of experience you want (as well, of course, as a good network within the club). So I'm not really saying anything different from those guys you've believed.


I'm curious about why you choose to do SC extras rather than doing incall or outcall. Does it somehow seem less hardcore to you, as the customer?

Yes.


Can you sort of fool yourself into thinking that you didn't really pay for sex, you just paid for a champagne room?

Yes.


If you're married, does it feel less like cheating?

No. My way of deluding myself on that score is that it doesn't feel like cheating as long as I'm paying something.


Is it just more convenient?

Big YES.

(This is perhaps the major factor.)


Are the girls hotter?

Yes. More congenial as well.


Do you prefer the experience for some other reason?

In addition to the above, incall is sort of dead in New York. At least high-end incall. And even when there used to be high-end-type incall places, the line-up was kind of rushed and impersonal. Strip clubs give you a chance to really check the girls out -- to see not only if you like how they look, but how they ARE -- before you decide to strike a deal with them. (And of course the girls get to do the same with customers.)

Nicolina
09-22-2005, 01:18 PM
Also, Rath:
Even though you're paying a lot of money for the CR, it sounds like the girls who do HJ or BJ or FS aren't actually charging any extra for whatever service they offer. They get the same amount of money per CR as the girls who refuse to do anything more than some good high-mileage laps. Don't they? This is the same phenomenon that the other guys have described....and it seems to occur in certain clubs no matter what the base price of the CR is.

Rath
09-22-2005, 01:20 PM
Also, Rath:
Even though you're paying a lot of money for the CR, it sounds like the girls who do HJ or BJ or FS aren't actually charging any extra for whatever service they offer. They get the same amount of money per CR as the girls who refuse to do anything more than some good high-mileage laps. Don't they? This is the same phenomenon that the other guys have described....and it seems to occur in certain clubs no matter what the base price of the CR is.

I was surprised you missed that earlier. That was EXACTLY my point. My point was that, in my opinion, these girls aren't "dumb" or "desperate" because they provide extras for the same rate as the non-extras girl get.

Nicolina
09-22-2005, 01:22 PM
Oh, oops, I wrote that last post before I'd read your response.
I see that you did corroborate that point.

Thank you very much for your (seemingly) very candid answers to my questions. :)

Rath
09-22-2005, 01:23 PM
Thank you very much for your reasonableness in discussion.

Jenny
09-22-2005, 01:50 PM
I think Jenny and Nicolina are living in a different world than I live in when they say that strippers who provide extras for the same price as other girls provide, um, non-extras are "desperate" or "dumb". (And I wish I lived in their world.)

What? You think we let just anybody in? We can forward you an application though, although we would also appreciate a CV. And perhaps a personal statement or letter or intent detailing what you think you have to offer our world, and what our world might have to offer you.

I think my original point still stands. I think that any girl is dumb (although this is a sliding scale. Like you can be $100 dumb, or $1000) who gives the proverbial "it" up for less than she can command. Significantly less - I don't mean like she neogotiated within $50 of the going rate. If I worked at a club that took half my earnings, providing me with no more incentive or love than the clubs in NY do, I'd have a perpetrual chip on my shoulder. The generation of dancers that let working conditions degenerate to that ought to kicked in their empty heads. Don't get me wrong - I don't want to kick them myself.

I just want to watch someone else do it. But, again, the volume of money that you are talking about is far outside the norm. The difference between $100 and $1000, right? But if a girl doesn't HAVE to... you know. Indulge in the proverb, for her money and does anyway for the same amount of money - yes. That seems stupid to me. And there is no point in saying that it's because I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it because it's stupid.

Rath
09-22-2005, 01:58 PM
I really think that the way many of them see it is this:

"I will get $500 an hour (out of a total $900 fee) if I get guys into the CR. I can do it one of two ways: I can hustle and even lie to them to get them to pay the $900 total fee. Or I can provide a service (which I find I am willing to provide) that actually has a value I can imagine approximating $900, with no hustling or lying. I choose the second."

Jenny
09-22-2005, 02:05 PM
Well, lying is obviously unethical. But - I'd rather fuck these guys than... hustle? Yeah, that makes no sense to me.
Your rational is obvious on its face. However. It is not necessarily a choice between Lying/Fucking. And - the same rational would apply to $400, $300, $200 and (in one infamous case that was discussed ad naseum) $60. At what point does it become desperate and stupid? I think it is generally stupid if you can obviously do better. Or conversely, maybe you can't do better because you are stupid. Now it's a chicken/egg thing.

By the way - you keep bringing up the fact that $900 was spent. This only has significance to the customer. This means nothing to the dancer, except that a huge chunk of her earning are being ripped from her grasp. The amount of money that does not go directly into the dancer's purse is irrelevant to our discussion here.

Rath
09-22-2005, 02:10 PM
I disagree.

I think the amount has A LOT to do with the dancer.

Guys' expectations are understandably higher for such absurdly high amounts of money.

So the girl will have to hint at (if not outright promise) more to get the guy to spend $900 than she would for $600 than she would for $400 than she would for $60.

And, if she's that kind of person, she'll feel worse for disappointing the guy (I'm using a more polite locution than "for ripping the guy off") for $900 than for $600 than for $400 than for $60.

I think -- and this is based at least in part on conversations with actual strippers, not just my own surmise -- that the high rates change a lot for the strippers.

SportsWriter2
09-22-2005, 02:19 PM
well, houston is just one example. believe it or not, you can take a uv light with you to some of the other clubs around this country and get the same results...

Houston won't be an extras example tonite... or all weekend for that matter. :O

Jenny
09-22-2005, 02:49 PM
I disagree.

I think the amount has A LOT to do with the dancer.

Guys' expectations are understandably higher for such absurdly high amounts of money.

Okay, I said for the purposes of our discussion. Didn't I? At any rate, it was implied. Whether or not the guys are being cheated/paying excessively whatever isn't the point. The point is whether or not the amount the dancer takes home makes the fucking worth while, or whether it is the going rate for a dance and she should either perform the dance as standard, or hold out for more. I will point and call you naive if you seriously believe that the only options in such a ridiculous club is fucking/lying. I know too many dancers in NY, and I don't know that many dancers in NY. The point - and again read it carefully - is that if the GOING RATE for a dance is $x.xx and you are providing full sex for $x.xx, and you cannot say that you are really exceptionally ugly or unpleasant and that is why you have to make that trade - you seem a little on the stupid side to me.

Ripping someone off - I think I'd feel less bad over the $900 than the $60.

High rates obviously change things - that's why I said there is $100 dumb and $1000. There is a sliding scale.

And dude really - I am a stripper, and I can (obviously) hardly speak for all of them. I'm sure you can't really think that chatting up a couple of girls that are on your payroll really enhances your expertise that much.

Rath
09-22-2005, 03:02 PM
1. Just to be clear, we're not talking about the price of "a dance" here. We're talking about the price of "a VIP". I don't think you have to either lie or fuck to sell a guy a dance. I think it's close to that -- not quite there, but close -- to sell a guy "a VIP", at least when "a VIP" costs as much as $900.

2. I resent your last remark tremendously. You don't claim to speak for all strippers, and I don't either. But it's not even worth talking to you when you pull shit like that, essentially saying that I don't have any right to talk about matters affecting this industry at all. You can't tell me that NO strippers think the way I'm describing. (If anything, my model provides an explanation for why girls who otherwise appear to be rather intelligent act in a way that you say must mean they're "dumb" if not "desperate".) And you can't possibly assume that all the strippers who talk to me are always lying to me. (This is why I said last week that I don't think you believe that strippers can actually "like" customers -- everytime some customer says something that implies he might believe he has had any kind of honest exchange with a stripper, you come out with something like this "on your payroll" shit.) I'm not here to tell you that you don't understand your business, Jenny. I don't claim to know more than I know. But I do claim to know more than nothing. (And that you know less than everything.) And I'm not gonna continue to participate in discussions where my contributions are disrespected solely because of my status.

Rath
09-22-2005, 03:06 PM
Getting back to "1" above, maybe one reason we're not understanding each other here is that your clubs don't have "VIPs", but only "dances" in semi-private areas? "VIPs" being where a stripper goes off to a room with a guy for an hour, with the expectation being that something more than "a dance" is gonna have to happen -- and the problem being that there's no specification of what that is?

Jenny
09-22-2005, 03:32 PM
^^^
Rath - chill the fuck out dude. I was obviously not deliberately trying to offend you - or if that wasn't obvious - I wasn't deliberately trying to offend you.

Interesting, I think kind of the opposite. I think it is because I am open to liking my customers that I do not understand (if you remember what prompted your original comment) the idea of offering discount sex - not liking or wanting them enough to do it free, but liking them a little too much to charge full price ... I'm sorry, the concept just boggles my mind. I don't get it and I don't think I could come within 9 city blocks of getting it. (I'd have to get on a subway, and I really don't go further west than where I am now. I don't even know what's over there really. I think there's a Walmart. And maybe a home depot So. I might get it next time I need to buy towels. Or a hammer. But I'm never going to need a hammer. And if I did I would probably borrow one. So it's towels or nothing.) Call me old fashioned but if I like a guy, I don't charge him to fuck me. As to why girls who otherwise seem intelligent... well. I'll be the judge of that. Most girls I know who are A) intelligent and B) willing to have sex in direct exchange for money are not schlepping around strip clubs, giving $400 to club management. That in itself is kind of dumb, when you think about it.

I'm not assuming that everyone you talk to is lying. I will, however, stand by my implication that when you are paying someone your relationship is, at least to a degree, defined by the payment. And that they will construct things in a certain way because of that definition. And that, if our visions of the strip club workplace collide, due to our respective positons in it mine is more likely to be accurate. As I said - I certainly can't speak for all dancers, and I know far from everything about the industry (or I'd be on the millionaire stripper thread on the pink side instead of wasting my time in school). Interesting thing: if you and I had a disagreement about an admissions process (this happened today. Not with you and I, just in general) and I said that I had worked in a nearby school the previous and coordinated the admissions, you would (assuming that you didn't work in a school) probably say "Oh. Well. You're probably right then" You probably wouldn't say "Well, I went to school. So I think I have some insight here."

I've worked in clubs with VIPs - but you're right. Here I'm pretty semi private (if by that you mean an area where other people can't convenient see you - in my club there are half walls, but no privacy) isn't legal. But most clubs I've worked, most places, that is the case. The only place I've ever actually worked where it was just you and the customer in a small room together was Guam.

Also, I think you are mistaken. I don't think it takes $900 for a guy to be all "what do I get for it?" (you can put whatever construction you want on the phrase, it all comes out the same. I think, at an hourly rate that attitude would become normalized at... offhand, I would say about $300.

Casual Observer
09-22-2005, 05:15 PM
Most 'normals' never come closer to exploring their sex-for-cash boundaries than idly contemplating whether or not they'd fuck Robert Redford for a million bucks (wasn't he the guy in that Indecent Proposal movie?)....or secretly wondering how interested they'd be in that not-so-handsome guy they're dating if he weren't so financially successful.

Strippers explore these boundaries every fucking day. 'Normals' form their opinions on this issue from the outside, and their emotional responses have more to do with the threat that sex workers potentially pose to their relationships than anything else. Sex workers form their opinions on this issue from the inside, based on what they find they are comfortable with and what makes them feel...just...icky. Our emotional responses have more to do with our self-perception than anything else.

I agree in full--it's what separates sex workers from civilian girls entirely.


But it's not even worth talking to you when you pull shit like that, essentially saying that I don't have any right to talk about matters affecting this industry at all. You can't tell me that NO strippers think the way I'm describing. (If anything, my model provides an explanation for why girls who otherwise appear to be rather intelligent act in a way that you say must mean they're "dumb" if not "desperate".) And you can't possibly assume that all the strippers who talk to me are always lying to me. (This is why I said last week that I don't think you believe that strippers can actually "like" customers -- everytime some customer says something that implies he might believe he has had any kind of honest exchange with a stripper, you come out with something like this "on your payroll" shit.)

I have to agree with Rath here; it's a frustrating exercise sometimes, Jenny, because of your own preconceived notions. Despite your protestations to the contrary, you do continually slag on posters when they lay it out as Rath did. If it doesn't fit your paradigm of stripper/customer relations (or more broadly, male/female relations in a macroscopic view), you reject it out of hand, in your classically dissmissive, frequently entertaining and benign fashion.

Is this too much to acknowledge?