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xdamage
09-29-2005, 09:27 AM
Clearly, some of you guys prefer SC extras to regular incall or outcall prostitution. I think I understand why, but I'm thinking of starting a new thread on this.....

This has been brought up by other girls like its some great mystery why. It's a simple thing. It is safe and convienent to drive to the club. Once there a guy can shop around for a woman that is visually a turn on. If he finds nothing he likes he can leave without any hassle. With an outcall it's a complete gamble as to what she is going to look like. And relatively high risk that its a bust or her pimp is some crazed asshole. It's not just the customers that are watching the door for cops in the club. It's the other girls, and club managers. Its a pain in the ass to get a motel room, check in, check out. Strip clubs are convienent and a guy take his time choosing the girl before he forks over his $$s.

Besides if brothels were more readily available some guys would go, but they aren't. And then there are the guys who don't want to be seen going into a brothel (morals, guilt, their image, etc.) On the outside at least the stripclubs portray the its just clean fun image. Like "Vegas", what goes on in the clubs stays in the clubs.

Nicolina
09-29-2005, 09:34 AM
...you could choose 'anal with hairpulling' off the menu and the girls didn't even have heads.


Gee. That's not really possible, is it? (I mean, you could have hairpulling or headless, but not really both, huh?)

I guess it could be the SCJ version of a Zen koan....

:P

Moneywise
09-30-2005, 05:42 PM
Well, I'm puzzled. I don't even understand why you would go into a club like that when it's supposed to have a reputation for less vigorous contact than you like. It's obviously not targeted to you, so why waste your time trying to achieve something the club's not known for? Are you so selfish that you can't respect the boundaries club management is trying to establish? Can't you keep your sh*t in your own nest? Is this some sort of male conquest thing that you are comfortable in your own territory but have to mark inhospitable areas too?




I’ve always enjoyed a challenge. I lend credence to having played multiple sports where there is only one victor. That mentality still drives me.





Well, obviously not, huh? I realize it's not going to be any different than other LD rooms. We both know it's an inherent contradiction to have private rooms and expect to enforce any rules with any consistency. Even with cameras, there are blind spots, or they're only there for show with very little actual watching being done.




If it makes you feel any better I went back to that same club a couple of hours ago looking for Ms. Orlando. I ended up chatting up the bartender. Another dancer (the one that thought she knew me the first time I went in) came over to the bar and introduced herself. The three of us enjoyed great conversation. The dancer went to the stage and I tipped her a few “wads” ($9 total..lol). Afterwards I thought I would try her out in the LD room. (redhead..nice smile..chatty.. I should have known better) I hinted at possibly getting multiple dances. The first dance always decides it for me. Not even 5 seconds into the song she says “watch those hands”..lol



Needless to say I was a good little boy for the rest of the dance. “Would you like another?” she said. “Nah. I’ll stop at one this time” I replied and told her to have a good night. She babbled something about possibly skipping out early if guys aren’t buying dances to which I thought to myself “One person’s slow night is another’s goldmine”.





This surprises me. You spent an extra $9 on the girl when you could have gotten right to the LD area before she took the stage. What are you turning into - a big spender?




Contrary to my handle used here I have been known to drop money “when appropriate” as my TRs do tell. There won’t be too many free rides coming from this direction. I thank Ms. L for that mentality. One thing I can guarantee you’ll never see.. That’s MW being led to an ATM by a starry eyed dancer.





Well, literally, three would mean you enjoyed LD after LD after LD. But usually a phrase like that implies a longer series, maybe half a dozen. Then again, I'm just being a picky bitch who also thinks it takes more than $4 to qualify as a wad.




To whom? You or I? See my previous response.





What a peculiar statement. Your hand slipped by unzipping your pants and masturbating? Or you mean she unzipped you but your hand slipped up and down on your shaft before she took over? Or do you mean she literally stole a turd ("jacked my shit") from your shorts? I'm really unclear who started what here. On second thought, I don't want to know. I'd rather know, from a fashion point of view, how silly the long baggy shirt looks over shorts OTC where it has no practical purpose.




The second scenario. I’ve never unzipped my pants in a SC. I follow leads. She worked my shaft like she was sculpting a piece of art. I finished later.


Hey! How dare you judge my casual dress? The baggy shirt actually served a special purpose. You learn something new every day.





What? No description of this? We was robbed.




I don’t think anyone needs a dissertation of the artistic manner in which I jack my shit. I prefer to tell about my interactions with the female persuasion. Frazier and I are the best of friends. That’s plenty.






I knew it was in here somewhere.




I’m glad you got it.





Aw, that's nuthin. I can do all that and check my Blackberry messages at the same time.


Call me.





Well, that's because the irony of reversing the reasoning in the passage to which I was responding went over your head. But I'll bet Jenny snickered at it. And if I entertain but one person with these expositions, I'm happy.




I’m glad to have been of some entertainment value. Giving a little back is the least I could do.





Now that's not true or else you couldn't have completed your endeavor at home. By the way, with real escort type service, you can begin, prolong and complete endeavors all at one time in one location. Sorta like having J for OTC, only every time.




It’s absolutely true. It starts ITC and continues OTC. I prefer the enjoyment of cultivating versus dialing up the neighborhood heavenly ham. That’s too easy.


I actually enjoy the moments that lead up to having Ms. J OTC. It’s really all the same. One takes time. The other is but a phone call away..sorta like my fuck friend. She’s free btw if you don’t count the expense of having to deal with her bad little offspring that happens to think the world of yours truly.





I never said otherwise, and I could gripe that you're reading more into what I wrote than what was there, but it's not like I don't ever do that to other people. All I'm saying is that Miss Orlando should be upholding the club's image, not multitasking Eddie. No, not Eddie. Um, Frazier. Eddie was Frazier's dad's dog. I get those sitcom references confused. You and she should go to a club that is known for that activity so everyone's on the same wavelength. The two of you are polluting the environment where other people would like to be free from that stuff. I don't understand why you can't respect that. (Keep in mind, I wouldn't say that if you hadn't specified that this club is known for policing those activities.)




Cute. I do wholeheartedly prefer the freedom of going where I want to go. Unfortunately Ms. Orlando didn’t show today. She’ll know I was there though since I spend 1 dance with her girl after having questioned her about Ms.Orlando extensively at the bar..fun fun fun.


“ Girl! You know that M%^&$%&% F^&#$^ only got one dance.”

“Oh really? He got multiples from me lest week.”


They could compare notes and bring further definition to the slow night/goldmine theory.





Rubbed me the wrong way? C'mon. I just said everyone was facinated. I just don't think you need the excuse of quoting Ev in order to tell your little stories.



Whatsa matta? You no like my little stories?




Yeah, I think I've already said that I hardly think it would make me either rational, intelligent, open minded or whatever is the opposite of sticking one's head in the sand is to take the word of a few strange, perverted guys on the internet over my own many years of personal experience and observation


I yield to your superior wisdom of the inner working of the SC business. I can only report what I experience. If it jives with what you know. Cool. All is well. If not then I can’t help you with that.




Believe it or not, I am not hopelessly stupid; I can see, hear, extrapolate and I know perfectly well how reliable or not dancers are (you know - being one and all). In fact - I don't even know what you'd call someone who actually sublimated as much observation time as I've had in strip clubs to the silly stories that people, who I will never meet, on this message board, but it isn't "brain surgeon". Or "rocket scientist."




Perhaps a book deal is in your future.




And Ev - for shame. You just made me laugh, like out loud, in my class. Now my prof thinks he's hilarious.


Knowing that I made a tiny contribution to your splendor makes me warm & fuzzy inside.

FBR
09-30-2005, 05:44 PM
I guess it could be the SCJ version of a Zen koan....

:P

Nic, dammit, I feel stupid. You are talking over this old guys head. What the heck is Zen koan?

FBR

FBR
09-30-2005, 05:55 PM
Maybe its me but things seem to be getting a little testy here. Methinks a chill pill is in order.

FBR

mr_punk
09-30-2005, 06:45 PM
mr. p, I know this. I worked in a club that got shut down despite the fact that no undercover cops splooged in the making of the bust.well, you must be one of the few strippers who does realize it. most of them act as if it's impossible. that's the biggest flaw with this whole whiny, "extra girls are putting us all at risk" argument. why should i sympathize and condemn another person's behavior when the person who's asking me to do such a thing is part of the problem?

I also know that there's a real difference between wiggling around upon denim-bedecked dicks while remaining untouched by the customer, and straight-out fucking for money. They're on the same continuum, but they aren't the same thing. I don't think I'm in denial about anything here [am I?], though I know that some dancers are more hypocritical in this regard.no, i don't think you're in denial. i don't even think you're being hypocritical. furthermore, you can set any personal moral boundaries you wish. you don't have to explain anything to me. i'm just a PL not a vice cop. it's not me that you have to worry about.

I was only pointing out that even if we think the law sucks, we have to acknowledge the fact that it is, indeed, the law. That's hubristic?frankly, the law doesn't affect me. OTOH, strippers are a different story. what's hubristic is a stripper thinking the same way you do like in the previous quoted statement. however, unlike yourself, she doesn't realize that it ain't worth a hill of beans in the eyes of the law. there's a reason why LD have never been granted protection by the courts ever since the first stripper jumped off stage and into a customer's lap.

LE can see that a stripper who is grinding her ass and other various body parts (all those little things that strippers do to hustle extra dances out of customers) against a customer's cock isn't dancing. it's called playing with a customer's willy for cash and trying to hide it under the pretense of "speech", "creative expression", "entertainment" or whatever other euphemisms dancers choose is an absurd idea to them. now, a stripper doesn't have to agree with the idea, but she better be cognizant of it. otherwise, a stripper thinking that a millimeter of thin cloth grants her some kind of immunity from the consequenses is being hubristic.

In fact, as I said, when I went to the Diamond Club and recognized that the guys expected more contact, and that all the other girls were providing that level of contact, I went ahead and provided that level of contact. [again within my boundaries....So, no touching the kitty. It's not a moral issue, it's just that I wouldn't let that happen for the price of an LD. It's just stupid.]
This is all in keeping with what Ev is saying. I tried to keep the services that I provided in line with what the club was willing to tolerate and what the other girls were providing. I don't know why this concept is so threatening to you guys.but what if there were girls who did let the customers finger the kitty for an extra $20? i'm sure she wouldn't advertise that fact in the dressing room. at least, not if she wants to keep her eyeballs. my point is that strippers don't provide the same level of contact. they never did and long-time sc customers know some strippers do things (and i'm not necessarily talking about extras) that other strippers won't do to hustle the customer into spending more. so, it's not threatening. it just sounds like dressing room lip service.

Clearly, some of you guys prefer SC extras to regular incall or outcall prostitution. I think I understand why, but I'm thinking of starting a new thread on this.....really? well, please do start a new thread...

mr_punk
09-30-2005, 06:59 PM
mr._punk, it is silly to pretend that a girl is as likely to be charged with prostitution while she is keeping the guys pants on - or making him keep pants on, or whatever - as while she has them off. This is not hybris. This is just me not being retarded.so, you don't think dancers can be retarded as long as the customer's keeps his pants on? oh sure, i just see a vice cop looking to make busts thinking to himself, "hmmm...the stripper is rubbing her tits up and down my cock, but she's doing it over my shorts. damn it..i can't arrest her, but i think i'm going to pop.".

seriously, we could talk about the likelihood all day. still, it's obvious that you see that the possibility exists and that alone should give any dancer pause. one would think that they would take some steps to protect themselves out of self-perservation like other sex workers. however, we are talking about flaky strippers. but hey, i understand. it's an extra $20 or more. so why bother, right? however, don't whine to me about it when a "clean", but retarded stripper finds herself in the pokey because she was under the misguided impression that she was "less likely" to get caught because the customer's pants stayed on. she can save the crocodile tears about "dirty" girls for someone who cares.

BTW, speaking of retarded (and drunk) strippers (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0729051strip1.html%20) who kept the customers pants on and who were probably working under the misguided impression that they're not likely to get busted. while i'm sure you strippers may think the dancers were unfairly charged. IMHO, the authorities were well within their rights to charge them as such. if i were a vice cop. i would have busted the retards myself.

That's why I kind of think it might be nice if you were. Obligated I mean. Not because I wish any of you a particular difficulty, but I think it might be neat if the entirety of the tension between market demand and illegality wasn't sitting entirely on us - especially when dealing with situations in which all parties are equally guilty under the law.perhaps, it wouldn't be such a burden to you ladies. if you retarded strippers learned how to cover your asses instead of trying to grind that extra $20 out of a strange PL.

About Mr P's signature lines: Kimora Lee Simmons is 29, a former supermodel, and the wife of hip-hop and fashion mogul Russell Simmons. The bitches are women who try to take Russell down as she gathers wrinkles and cellulite. It's not easy being shallow.i never heard of her until i read that article. i thought she was pretty hilarious (although, i'm sure it was unintentional on her part). she sounds exactly like some strippers i've met when they bitch about other strippers.

mr_punk
09-30-2005, 07:24 PM
Like any workplace, there needs to be consistency and standards to have a viable business. Normally, management enforces those, but given the fact that this is not the case in all SCs, it seems to fall on the independent contractors to police their own.well, if it is the responsibility of the independent contractors to enforce consistency and standards. from a customer's POV, you ladies aren't doing a very good job of it on a collective basis.

Regardless of the style of bitching, at its core, it's a valid grievance about inconsistencies in how some people are carrying out the business model. Kinda like how some customers bitch about dancers sitting at the bar and isolating themselves even when the custy is trying to get her attention. That's a valid complaint about how she's doing her job. I could legitimately gripe about that kind of behavior, too, because it might mean certain customers won't return. So the validity of the complaints are the same. If she's too far outside the consensus practice, she's causing a problem for her co-workers.from a customer's POV, that problem is easily solved if he is a proactive customer. i always tell guys to never trust the claims of a stripper or sc when it comes to customer service. in the end, that responsibility is going to fall squarely on the shoulders of the customer. it is up to him to be a discerning consumer.

I swear, is it just because I'm a stripper that my professional opinion gets dismissed so often by you? If I were still a journalist and was talking about inconsistencies and faults at my newspaper, would I get this same reaction from you as a reader? Would you say it's just a bunch of flaky reporters having a bitch fest that should stay confined to the sports bar?LOL...actually, i'm not dismissing your opinions on SCJ. OTOH, if we were in a sc. i would either dismiss you (literally) or completely tune you out. some strippers think i'm paying them to bitch instead of paying them to sit on my balls. now, i freely admit to being a degenerate letch, but i'm not kinky in that way.

So? That's a justification for dropping all standards? I've got no problem with customers bitching about the other inconsistencies and lack of quality control, so let me bitch about this one.i didn't know there were standards in the first place. tell me, at what point in time has your industry ever expressed any interest in anything beyond separating the PL from his money as quickly as possible? overpromising and underdelivering is the cornerstone of your industry and concepts like quality control or customer service have never qualified even as an afterthought. futhermore, as long as PLs are willing to pay for such a shoddy product. sc will continue to be a viable business. so, there really is no compelling reason for a stripper or your industry to change.

One would think that for all the bitching that customers do about why some dancer choses to work at a club that limits extras, it would finally click that the reason why she wants a club like that is because (A) it's not a club structured with you in mind, and (B) the dancers are not your type. So, just move the f#ck on and hit up some escort service and the dancer will sell dances to another customer.or how about: one would think that for all the bitching that dancers do about why some customer chose to buy dances from blonde with huge bolt-ons instead of small breasted, natural brunettes. it would finally click that the reason why he didn't pick you is because (A)he's not your customer and (B) you're not his type of dancer. so, just move the f#ck on and hustle some other customer and he'll buy dances from another stripper.

in the end, a stripper will still find some reason to bitch about how some other stripper is cutting into her money. do you really think if extras disappeared tomorrow. all of a sudden, strippers wouldn't have any other reasons to bitch to customers about why she thinks other strippers are cutting into her money. currently, they don't always bitch about extra girls in the club.

Well, tough. As long as the problem exists, you're going to be hearing it and it's going to interfere with customer satisfaction. Which is all the more reason that some standards should be adhered to, so the problem goes away.but it's not going to go away until PLs stop paying for such a shoddy product. BTW, that's the only reason why sc and strippers get away with their behavior. customers have to start delivering messages in the only language these people understand. so, when more customers start treating strippers like sex workers instead of their potential girlfriend, confidante or buddy. things will change. when a stripper starts showing her flaky ass and more customers start cutting her off at the knees. things will change. when more customers start separating the strippers who want to earn their money and start freezing out the strippers who think you should throw money at them. things will change. on second thought, things might change....after all, you can never really tell when it comes to flakey strippers.


I've made that same argument over on the pink side. There's always some level of risk. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that the odds of getting caught aren't reduced with lesser activities. And it doesn't mean that the business model won't be jeopardized by dancers who deviate far from the standard menu and price schedule.no, i'm not saying you made the argument. it's just that i find the argument specious from a customer's POV. i'm sure there are plenty of guys on SCJ who've had more than their fair share of laps with strippers who like to walk that edge. we can tell the difference between a stripper giving a standard pedestrian lap and a stripper giving a nasty lap with the intent to make a customer splooge (and in the other sense of the word) more cash. BTW, the latter is a far more common among strippers than extras.

And since we know that will never happen, you'd think he could at least express some appreciation for the risk we take on behalf of generating his orgasm. Yes, I myself chose to take that type of risk in order to make the money, but the risk can exceed the value of the money if the risk actually materializes. Fire fighters get paid for taking risks, too, but they still get public appreciation from the people they serve. All we get are reactions that we're full of sh*t.on the contrary, i do appreciate those strippers who work hard to earn my money. if i didn't appreciate them. they would stop receiving my money. OTOH, if a stripper gives me tsuris. well, my decision is amazingly simple. i just cut her off at the knees without a second thought.

BTW, one of the reasons men go to see sex workers is to free themselves from certain obligations. i mean, i wash my ass and brush my teeth. i trim my nails and wash my hands before laps, but beyond that point. i really don't want to put forth a lot of my time, effort or energy towards the process. all i need to bring is money. which is a lot easier to give than time, effort or energy in this instance. furthermore, it's really not as difficult to earn my money as it sounds. i don't require preliminary effort from strippers. so, she can save her energy for the LD and after a series of laps. i really only need her to work hard for the next three..ok..maybe..two minutes.}:D

evan_essence
10-01-2005, 09:16 AM
well, if it is the responsibility of the independent contractors to enforce consistency and standards. from a customer's POV, you ladies aren't doing a very good job of it on a collective basis.Yeah, well, let's attack the extras first, then we'll get to the rest of the laundry list. I assume you'll help by reporting the next girl who tries to get into your pants.


i didn't know there were standards in the first place.In using the word, I think I was either making the point that it would be better for business if there were some uniform standards, and/or that, barring that, one should stick within sight of the common practices of the majority within a given club. You know, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.


tell me, at what point in time has your industry ever expressed any interest in anything beyond separating the PL from his money as quickly as possible? overpromising and underdelivering is the cornerstone of your industry and concepts like quality control or customer service have never qualified even as an afterthought.I don't think I said quality control was de rigeuer at present; I said I understand if customers complain about it. Obviously, if the product is improved, there should be more PLs willing to pay.


futhermore, as long as PLs are willing to pay for such a shoddy product. sc will continue to be a viable business. so, there really is no compelling reason for a stripper or your industry to change.See, you're making my point. There's reason to do a better job luring PLs to make more money; there is no compelling reason to overdeliver to attract customers like you. So why the hell are some girls doing it??


or how about: one would think that for all the bitching that dancers do about why some customer chose to buy dances from blonde with huge bolt-ons instead of small breasted, natural brunettes. it would finally click that the reason why he didn't pick you is because (A)he's not your customer and (B) you're not his type of dancer. so, just move the f#ck on and hustle some other customer and he'll buy dances from another stripper.Okay, so you're telling me I'm never impacted by this downward spiral of a different type of customer being attracted to a club that used to attract my customers. You've never seen that happen to a club? See, eventually there won't be any customers left for me to hustle because I'll be the one far outside the norm. That's why I need to claw some eyes out when I'm the norm.

Here's what's going on here. You're arguing you should be able to walk into any club anywhere anytime and get whatever the hell you want, and that doesn't effect me. Just me do my thing and your girl does her thing, never our styles nor customers shall meet, and we'll all live happily ever after. Nah. Bullshit. The clientele of the club is dictated by what goes on there. We've all seen it. So I will be affected.

And then to really top off this milkshake nicely, several people who argue that my complaint has no validity also argue that I'm a moralistic/judgmental prude for lodging the complaint. It's this clever little guilt trip ya all try to lay at my and my colleagues' over-extended heels. Bless you, however, for avoiding the moral/judgmental characterization in favor of claiming we're being whiny bitches.


in the end, a stripper will still find some reason to bitch about how some other stripper is cutting into her money. do you really think if extras disappeared tomorrow. all of a sudden, strippers wouldn't have any other reasons to bitch to customers about why she thinks other strippers are cutting into her money.Okay, good, fine. Strippers will continue to bitch. But ya know what. Whether they continue to bitch about something else, or stop cold turkey, it isn't a bit relevant to the issue of the activity inside the club dictating the type of customer.


currently, they don't always bitch about extra girls in the club. but it's not going to go away until PLs stop paying for such a shoddy product. BTW, that's the only reason why sc and strippers get away with their behavior. customers have to start delivering messages in the only language these people understand. so, when more customers start treating strippers like sex workers instead of their potential girlfriend, confidante or buddy. things will change.Again, you unintentionally touch on my point. Targeting a strip club to the ones seeking potential girlfriends is a viable business model without needing to broaden the scope.


we can tell the difference between a stripper giving a standard pedestrian lap and a stripper giving a nasty lap with the intent to make a customer splooge (and in the other sense of the word) more cash. BTW, the latter is a far more common among strippers than extras.Really, I haven't read that research. It was nice that the participants being polled were so honest.


on the contrary, i do appreciate those strippers who work hard to earn my money. if i didn't appreciate them. they would stop receiving my money. OTOH, if a stripper gives me tsuris. well, my decision is amazingly simple. i just cut her off at the knees without a second thought. You just made the point that ALL strippers are taking a risk of getting arrested. Not just the ones who go to the level of "earning" your money. You can't have this both ways. Either they're all at risk and therefore, all deserve to be appreciated for taking that risk, or the ones who stop short are not at as much risk, don't earn your money and therefore, it's understandable they don't garner your appreciation.


i don't require preliminary effort from strippers. so, she can save her energy for the LD and after a series of laps. i really only need her to work hard for the next three..ok..maybe..two minutes.}:DNow you're just elaborating on the jacking of your shit like Moneywise. Braggert.

-Ev

Jenny
10-01-2005, 12:28 PM
so, you don't think dancers can be retarded as long as the customer's keeps his pants on? oh sure, i just see a vice cop looking to make busts thinking to himself, "hmmm...the stripper is rubbing her tits up and down my cock, but she's doing it over my shorts. damn it..i can't arrest her, but i think i'm going to pop.".
Um... what? I said that it would be retarded to pretend that a girl is as likely to get arrested doing fully clothed grinding as she is to get arrested while fucking the guy in the club. The dancer, in this scenario, has nothing to do with the level of mental competence, regardless of her or her customer's state of undress.




seriously, we could talk about the likelihood all day. still, it's obvious that you see that the possibility exists and that alone should give any dancer pause.
Now you are just being naive. If we sat around pausing all day over these things, we would never get to work. The fact is that the local norms differ, usually greatly, from the local laws. You have, yourself, repeatedly pledged yourself to keeping this gap as wide as possible. So what, precisely (precisely, mind you) are you suggesting here?


one would think that they would take some steps to protect themselves out of self-perservation like other sex workers.
what steps would those be, exactly, in this particular industry?


don't whine to me about it when a "clean", but retarded stripper finds herself in the pokey because she was under the misguided impression that she was "less likely" to get caught because the customer's pants stayed on.
this is not a misguided impression. And it's not about getting caught. It's about the likelihood of being arrested and charged. And a club that routinely offers full sex is more likely to be busted than a club that routinely doesn't (all other things being equal).


she can save the crocodile tears about "dirty" girls for someone who cares.
Now, here's a interesting comment (entirely outside that fact that evidently at least a few people who are participating in this conversation do care). What is it, exactly, that you care about? I don't mean in terms of the universe as a whole. I mean you come here and post and reply, usually with some care. You seem to reply to lot of threads, ideas and thoughts that you don't care about. Which one's do you care about? Like which one's keep you coming back, exactly?


perhaps, it wouldn't be such a burden to you ladies. if you retarded strippers learned how to cover your asses instead of trying to grind that extra $20 out of a strange PL.
Again, I am facinated by this idea of covering my ass (figuratively speaking, I presume). How exactly does one do that in this business, besides by leaving it?


Whatsa matta? You no like my little stories?
Well, really, I don't know how many times I can be expected to read "and I fucked another stripper" and care. (Indeed, considering the guys that I have seen fuck strippers, it neither seems like a talent or an accomplishment). Of course, your right to tell them, and everyone's evident homoerotic facination is uncontested - I just don't think you need to resort to sneaking them into replies to Ev's rather intelligent and insightful commentary.


I yield to your superior wisdom of the inner working of the SC business. I can only report what I experience. If it jives with what you know. Cool. All is well. If not then I can’t help you with that.
I'm not sure if this is a boy-girl thing or what - what on earth has given you the idea that your help, in this matter, is required or wished for? In fact, I think I just outlined all in the ways in which it is wholly superfluous.

The Snark
10-01-2005, 01:16 PM
BTW, speaking of retarded (and drunk) strippers (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0729051strip1.html%20) who kept the customers pants on and who were probably working under the misguided impression that they're not likely to get busted. while i'm sure you strippers may think the dancers were unfairly charged.
Great link, Mr. P; the expressions on the mugshots are priceless. I especially like the herpes sore on the upper lip of #6, and would dearly likely to know exactly what happened to the left eye of #12.

Nicolina
10-01-2005, 02:43 PM
well, you must be one of the few strippers who does realize it. most of them act as if it's impossible. that's the biggest flaw with this whole whiny, "extra girls are putting us all at risk" argument.
Well, now I come to find out that the club I thought was moderately clean was actually a total den of iniquity. So who knows?
Actually, in the affadavit, to be perfectly honest about it, there were some allegations about girls who propositioned for more than a tabledance. Frankly, I thought they made the shit up. Why? Because, first of all, they clearly targeted the Latina girls, and they accused one girl in particular who I am about 99.9% certain would never in a million years proposition a guy.

I do think it's silly for you to insist that a club in which extras never happen would be exactly as likely to get shut down by vice as a club that was basically a strip-brothel. Though it is true that ultimately, if the residents of a city make a big enough stink, the local politicians will pressure LE to shut the place down, and eventually they'll get the job done.


why should i sympathize and condemn another person's behavior when the person who's asking me to do such a thing is part of the problem?
Indeed, why should you condemn another person's behavior when that person is vigorously rubbing your dick? Frankly, I don't know why anyone would expect you to do such a thing.



no, i don't think you're in denial. i don't even think you're being hypocritical. furthermore, you can set any personal moral boundaries you wish. you don't have to explain anything to me. i'm just a PL not a vice cop. it's not me that you have to worry about.

Well, gee. Thanks for giving me permission to be exactly the kind of ho I wanna be. ::)

frankly, the law doesn't affect me. OTOH, strippers are a different story. what's hubristic is a stripper thinking the same way you do like in the previous quoted statement. however, unlike yourself, she doesn't realize that it ain't worth a hill of beans in the eyes of the law. there's a reason why LD have never been granted protection by the courts ever since the first stripper jumped off stage and into a customer's lap.
Frankly, I don't understand what the hell you're getting at here. /:O




LE can see that a stripper who is grinding her ass and other various body parts (all those little things that strippers do to hustle extra dances out of customers) against a customer's cock isn't dancing. it's called playing with a customer's willy for cash and trying to hide it under the pretense of "speech", "creative expression", "entertainment" or whatever other euphemisms dancers choose is an absurd idea to them.

So...wait a minute now. You're telling me that cock-grinding isn't high art? Fuck! I was about to ask for an NEA grant to fund my boob job and buy new minidresses and stripper shoes. ::)

The Supreme Court has ruled that obscenity is not protected speech (though the cool Justices thought that it should be.) I am inclined to agree that stage shows and lapdances are both intended to appeal to "the prurient interest." So if you're not going to grant Constitutional protection to "obscene" speech, then LE is 100% correct in seeking to curb the activities of even the cleanest stripper.

There. Are you happy now? Now you can't even get a clean lapdance. Where are you going with this argument? It seems that you are claiming that all the activities in strip clubs are illegal, and all clubs should be shut down.



but what if there were girls who did let the customers finger the kitty for an extra $20? i'm sure she wouldn't advertise that fact in the dressing room. at least, not if she wants to keep her eyeballs.

mr. punk, I'm not a complete and total idiot. I am quite sure that there were other dancers who allowed that. I'm sure there were even some girls who allowed it without charging extra, thinking (rightly) that they would benefit by getting more dances from a customer who was interested in fingering her.

My point was that I felt comfortable sticking to a happy medium within the context of the club. I wasn't the dirtiest girl, but neither was I the cleanest. It kept me out of trouble and kept me from going broke at the same time.


my point is that strippers don't provide the same level of contact. they never did and long-time sc customers know some strippers do things (and i'm not necessarily talking about extras) that other strippers won't do to hustle the customer into spending more. so, it's not threatening. it just sounds like dressing room lip service.


Of course strippers don't provide the same level of contact. Speaking for myself, I can honestly say that the level of contact I provided to any given customer at any given moment depended on a number of things: my mood, my level of comfort with the given customer, the amount of money I had made so far, and (of course ::)) my own level of intoxication.

I still made an effort to stay out of trouble with management, the other girls, and my own conscience. This wasn't "dressing room lip service", it was a survival skill.

yoda57us
10-01-2005, 03:26 PM
On a recent trip to San Diego I bought dances from 3 women at a club that had recently been raided and involved in a corruption scandal. All three dancers spent at least part of the first dance trying to figure out if I was a cop or not. After they felt like I was "OK" they proceeded to administer one-way medium contact LD's with their clothes almost completely on. The last two girls decided it was ok for me to reciprocate a bit but the first girl wouldn't hear of it. The possibility of a bust just wasn't worth it to her. I did two dances with her and 10 each with the other two dancers.

Look, I feel sorry for any dancer who doesn't realize that lap dancing is not actually on the books as legal anywhere in the US. What jurisdictions and clubs allow is a whole 'nother thing from what is legal. Frankly, the vast majority of dancers I've known understood this, even if it wasn't a constant topic of conversation, and proceeded with appropriate caution when they felt it was needed.
I don't think all that many dancers are fooling themselves about what they do or what some of their fellow dancers may do to make money.
It's all about making a living in an industry where the "rules" change all the time based on economy, geography, politics and a bunch of other variables. The reality is that, to make money as a dancer, you are often times going to be in direct violation of a civil ordinance that is recorded somewhere in the bylaws of the city that you are dancing in. Personal boundaries are really all a dancer has-regardless of what the law may or may not see as acceptable.

Moneywise
10-01-2005, 05:26 PM
The last two girls decided it was ok for me to reciprocate a bit but the first girl wouldn't hear of it. The possibility of a bust just wasn't worth it to her. I did two dances with her and 10 each with the other two dancers.



More truth. Those patrons who are crafty at discerning the real from the fluff spend wisely. I wouldn't call it anything more than a good business sense. ;)

my own random thought: Who cares if your club was just busted? As long as you didn't have to spend any nights in the slammer my heart is contented. Now keep your head on a swivel and lead me to the promise land. }:D

yoda57us
10-02-2005, 08:23 AM
Who cares if your club was just busted? As long as you didn't have to spend any nights in the slammer my heart is contented. Now keep your head on a swivel and lead me to the promise land. }:D

Well, I'm kinda on the fense with this one. The previously posted "Smoking Gun" web link is a worst case scenario of what can happen when a dancer or a club get complacent. I don't like the idea of one of my favs winding up on SG just because she was grinding on some guys lap, trying to earn a living, when some politician woke up on the wrong side of the bed one morning.

Moneywise
10-02-2005, 08:49 AM
Well, I'm kinda on the fense with this one. The previously posted "Smoking Gun" web link is a worst case scenario of what can happen when a dancer or a club get complacent. I don't like the idea of one of my favs winding up on SG just because she was grinding on some guys lap, trying to earn a living, when some politician woke up on the wrong side of the bed one morning.

I frequent a place where the cops spend more time trying to impress mr. p with their stories of how they fucked dancer A. Last night I stopped by for a couple of hours. There's always a cop there on Friday & Saturday nights. This one kept coming in the booth to get his smoke on. He also kept asking p questions about the girl on the stage who happened to be Ms. J. Cops are so corrupt it's not even funny. I learn something new about cops every time I venture into my ol stomping grounds. If it's not a story told by P it's something I witness first hand. I actually dealt with some of the girls (incl Ms. J) thinking I was an undercover cop for the longest before I was finally able to convince them otherwise. Why? I'm not from here where the majority of men of color talk with a southern twang & dress like they're going to a football after-party. I'm clean cut. I am also a military brat so I have no discernable accent. I start talking & the sensors go up. It took awhile to get beyond them thinking I was a cop but there's not doubt in their minds now. :P


Now that I am done babbling, I don't like that idea either. However, having seen some of the things that I eluded to above, I take getting busted with a grain of salt. I know that sounds as if I don't care. Actually I do for my owns selfish reasons. }:D

Moneywise
10-02-2005, 08:56 AM
I just clicked the link to that Smoking Gun website. I wouldn't want to see any of the dancers I chill with on that website holding up a sign as a result of any interaction between us ITC. If that happened it would only mean both she and I are both slipping as I enjoy multitasking & also enjoy finding those with like skills.

Mastridonicus
10-02-2005, 09:11 AM
I just want to know whats up with that chicks EYE?!

ugh, I couldn't buy dances from that unless I like already knew her!

I feel so superficial, but it keeps taunting me!!!

SportsWriter2
10-02-2005, 09:36 AM
The previously posted "Smoking Gun" web link is a worst case scenario of what can happen when a dancer or a club get complacent.
One 88-pound dancer, two masturbators, one beaten eye, one herpes sore, five dogs, and a fattie taken down by cops who can't even spell "prostitution" on a mug shot card. Ev, where are the Independent Contractor Police when you really need them? :-\

evan_essence
10-02-2005, 09:53 AM
I just clicked the link to that Smoking Gun website. I wouldn't want to see any of the dancers I chill with on that website holding up a sign as a result of any interaction between us ITC. If that happened it would only mean both she and I are both slipping as I enjoy multitasking & also enjoy finding those with like skills.Well, I think I can speak for every stripper on here when I say WTF are you trying to say? First, you don't care if my club is busted. Then, you elaborate with justification that makes no sense. Then you post you do care. Then you qualify that by more confusing explanation including the fact that you only care for your own selfish reasons. I didn't follow any of that.

A specific example...


I wouldn't want to see any of the dancers I chill with on that website holding up a sign as a result of any interaction between us ITC. If that happened it would only mean both she and I are both slipping as I enjoy multitasking & also enjoy finding those with like skills.What exactly does that mean? Slipping at what? Multitasking? That must have some meaning in this context I'm not picking up on if it keeps one from being arrested.

-Ev

evan_essence
10-02-2005, 10:40 AM
One 88-pound dancer, two masturbators, one beaten eye, one herpes sore, five dogs, and a fattie taken down by cops who can't even spell "prostitution" on a mug shot card. Ev, where are the Independent Contractor Police when you really need them? :-\Okay, I know you're clowning but remember, the hypothetical IC Police only enforce club norms, not legal requirements or your norms. Wait, you only have abnorms. Anyway, from what I could tell from the police reports, there's nothing presented that indicates whether or not the women arrested were giving anything other than a lap dance that was customary for that club. Florida law defines prostitution as involving any genital contact so any grinding or even brief brushing of a clothed penis would qualify for arrest.

-Ev

yoda57us
10-02-2005, 10:40 AM
The average beat cop may very well be corrupt but the average beat cop is not responsible for most SC busts. The most I've ever seen a cop on a club detail do is tell the manager to tell a dancer to ease up on the contact. Clubs get busted when some politician decides to impose his morality on the rest of us. When this happens, there is little any dancer working at that particular time can do to prevent it. Blaming it on an individual dancer is unfair. The whole point of my 2 dance vs 10 dance post was that the 10 dance girls knew they might be putting themselves at risk but allowed me some leverage anyway because they knew it would directly effect their income. They rolled the dice....sometimes that's what you have to do. You have no choice.

Moneywise
10-02-2005, 11:26 AM
Well, I think I can speak for every stripper on here

Wait. Let me adjust your soapbox a bit so you don't lean too far forward & fall on that lovely face of yours.


WTF are you trying to say?

Let me say it once more for you. This time I will put it as plainly as possible. I care about the welfare of the lovely ladies I patronize solely because I have invested too much time & money into having it my way. They don't care about me. They care about what I carry so happily in my pocket. ;) It's a mutually rewarding self centered relationship.

Let me also say this again just so it sinks in this time. I seek those with like skills. A good multitasker is a must simply due to the fact that we will probably find ourselves skirting a few rules and I wouldn't want her to get busted for not having her head on a good swivel. See. I care. ::)


I didn't follow any of that.



Sorry. I'm not easily understood.


First, you don't care if my club is busted. Then, you elaborate with justification that makes no sense. Then you post you do care. Then you qualify that by more confusing explanation including the fact that you only care for your own selfish reasons.

I'm a Libra. What can I say? If the scales get tipped too far in one direction I tip them back. However, the crux of it all has been defined yet again just a few lines above this one.




What exactly does that mean? Slipping at what? Multitasking? That must have some meaning in this context I'm not picking up on if it keeps one from being arrested.


A good multitasker excels above those who cannot in all circles.

mr_punk
10-02-2005, 08:39 PM
I do think it's silly for you to insist that a club in which extras never happen would be exactly as likely to get shut down by vice as a club that was basically a strip-brothel. Though it is true that ultimately, if the residents of a city make a big enough stink, the local politicians will pressure LE to shut the place down, and eventually they'll get the job done.it's not as silly as you may think. in fact, that's a point i made in another thread. extras alone have very little to do with any kind of club getting busted or shut down. in fact, there are strip-brothels that are allowed to operate because the reasons behind most sc busts are mostly political rather than legal. for example, houston is in a conservative state. however, many houston clubs are allowed to operate because of (A)greased palms (B)it's still a good ol boys town.

Well, gee. Thanks for giving me permission to be exactly the kind of ho I wanna be.no problem...never let it be said that mr_punk isn't a friend of the ho's.

Frankly, I don't understand what the hell you're getting at here.since strippers don't have protection. the burden of possibly getting arrested is going to fall on the stripper's shoulders not mine. so, it pays to be cognizant of that fact.

I am inclined to agree that stage shows and lapdances are both intended to appeal to "the prurient interest." So if you're not going to grant Constitutional protection to "obscene" speech, then LE is 100% correct in seeking to curb the activities of even the cleanest stripper.that's not quite accurate. lap dancing has never had protection. OTOH, nude dancing does have protection, albeit in a limited form, when compared to other first admendment issues. although, local governments can't ban it simply becuase they don't like it. they can regulate it. which is why they can make strippers wear latex or create distance rules between dancers and customers, etc. IOW, the courts have pretty much left the stripper's asses hanging in the breeze and at the mercy and whims of local goverments.

Where are you going with this argument? It seems that you are claiming that all the activities in strip clubs are illegal, and all clubs should be shut down.you think so? no, that isn't my intent. it's nothing special. i'm just pointing out that whether strippers like it or not. sex work of all kinds go on inside of sc and for all this talk that everyone does around here about how people outside the industry are close-minded and judgemental towards strippers. i find it ironic that strippers are not that much different.

Of course strippers don't provide the same level of contact. Speaking for myself, I can honestly say that the level of contact I provided to any given customer at any given moment depended on a number of things: my mood, my level of comfort with the given customer, the amount of money I had made so far, and (of course ) my own level of intoxication.sure....YMMV.

I still made an effort to stay out of trouble with management, the other girls, and my own conscience. This wasn't "dressing room lip service", it was a survival skill.no doubt....i'm sure you were very attached to your eyeballs.

link, Mr. P; the expressions on the mugshots are priceless. I especially like the herpes sore on the upper lip of #6, and would dearly likely to know exactly what happened to the left eye of #12.it isn't hard to guess. it looks like one of her co-workers tried to claw out her eyeball.

mr_punk
10-02-2005, 09:16 PM
Yeah, well, let's attack the extras first, then we'll get to the rest of the laundry list. I assume you'll help by reporting the next girl who tries to get into your pants.well, even being a snitch requires effort and you know how i feel about expending my energy in a sc. BTW, it's always about the extras girls with you. it's almost as if they are the sole reason why a stripper prefers to sit around the bar at work, get drunk and bitch to customers about how there's no money.

In using the word, I think I was either making the point that it would be better for business if there were some uniform standards, and/or that, barring that, one should stick within sight of the common practices of the majority within a given club.better for whom? are you speaking for the sc owners? the strippers? or both? often the two parties have very different ideas about what's better for business and the ideas doesn't necessarily work to the other parties benefit and to be honest with you. i'm always wary when either party talks about what's good for customers. which is why the phrase "caveat emptor" should always be on the mind of a customer when going to a new sc or meeting a new stripper.

I don't think I said quality control was de rigeuer at present; I said I understand if customers complain about it. Obviously, if the product is improved, there should be more PLs willing to pay.but there are more than enough PLs willing to pay now. i mean, a sc owner would have to be a complete idiot (yeah, i know) to go broke in your industry because so many PLs are willing to pay for a shoddy product.

See, you're making my point. There's reason to do a better job luring PLs to make more money; there is no compelling reason to overdeliver to attract customers like you. So why the hell are some girls doing it??ummm....because they're flaky? seriously, what do you expect? your industry has always attracted all kinds of women who are drawn to the money and/or the transgressive nature of the business. furthermore, as jenny pointed out many times, it's a low skill job. sc owners don't seem to be very particular about who they hire as long as they get the stage fees and the strippers make money for the club. as a result of the sc owners lax attitude towards personnel. the strippers he's hiring may not have the same set of moral values as you do when it comes to hustling customers. so, while evan might not go around DFK (among other things) customers and telling him that he's "special" and stringing him along to hustle that extra $20. there are other strippers who have no problem doing such a thing or while evan might not by give a BBBJ. there are other strippers who have no problem doing such a thing.

Okay, so you're telling me I'm never impacted by this downward spiral of a different type of customer being attracted to a club that used to attract my customers. You've never seen that happen to a club? See, eventually there won't be any customers left for me to hustle because I'll be the one far outside the norm. That's why I need to claw some eyes out when I'm the norm.well, kat's always talking about how she made money in houston clubs despite the presence of extras and she's far from being the only exception. then again, kat knows how to hustle (maybe it's the slavic blood) instead of sitting on her ass and getting baked in the dressing room. in any case, i don't know why you strippers think that your actions are (or should be) similar in a sc. since customers are the ones paying for the laps. i can tell you that isn't the case at all with or without extras. IMO, every stripper hustles differently and every stripper dances differently. we can tell the differences, but it should be no surprise to you as well. i mean, you did say you ladies are independent contractors. well, every stripper tries gets the job done in her own little way. sometimes, she'll do her job within the club norm and sometimes not. in the end, they're all doing it to get that next $20.

Here's what's going on here. You're arguing you should be able to walk into any club anywhere anytime and get whatever the hell you want, and that doesn't effect me. Just me do my thing and your girl does her thing, never our styles nor customers shall meet, and we'll all live happily ever after. Nah. Bullshit. The clientele of the club is dictated by what goes on there. We've all seen it. So I will be affected.quite the contrary, i never said your money wouldn't be affected. if you have no chance to get my money because i'm not your customer. of course, it will cut into your money because of a lost opportunity, but here's the thing. every stripper cuts into another stripper's money at some point in time. furthermore, a stripper doesn't have to perform an extra in order to do so. contrary to popular belief, one stripper doesn't have an equal chance as another to get a customer's money. you've heard of YMMV? well, it just doesn't apply to strippers. YMMV (your money may vary) also applies to customers as well. customers pick and choose strippers for any number of reasons and despite the removal of one variable like extras. your money is still going to be impacted by another stripper in one way or another.

so, you're still going to end up with the same result without extras or without customers like me. in the end, strippers are still going to bitch and moan about (and bitch to customers) customers choosing other strippers for reasons other than extras (unless a stripper happens to find the holy grail of sc by discovering a club full of whipped PLs). customers are still going to pick and choose strippers for reasons that strippers can't control and never will. after all, the money is in his pocket.

And then to really top off this milkshake nicely, several people who argue that my complaint has no validity also argue that I'm a moralistic/judgmental prude for lodging the complaint. It's this clever little guilt trip ya all try to lay at my and my colleagues' over-extended heels. Bless you, however, for avoiding the moral/judgmental characterization in favor of claiming we're being whiny bitches.i never thought you were being a moralistic/judgmental prude because strippers are no different than any other sex worker when it comes to money. OTOH, you are a quite a biatch, but not as biatchy in that "nag-him-until-his-family jewels-drop-off" kind of way like jenny. her commando feminist training really shines in that area.

Okay, good, fine. Strippers will continue to bitch. But ya know what. Whether they continue to bitch about something else, or stop cold turkey, it isn't a bit relevant to the issue of the activity inside the club dictating the type of customer.why not? why isn't the fact that you're a bunch of hyper-competitive biatches relevant to the issue? certainly, strippers don't hide the fact that it's all about the money. you ladies don't hesitate to proclaim yourselves to be proficient at hustling customers or earning money in your respective clubs. it's no secret to customers that you ladies are more than willing to express contempt or even poison the waters of your perceived competition in order to get an edge on said competition. now, don't get me wrong, i'm as hyper-competitive as they come. so, i'm not criticizing you ladies for being competitive. however, i do know that it can color your perspective when you're competing.

Again, you unintentionally touch on my point. Targeting a strip club to the ones seeking potential girlfriends is a viable business model without needing to broaden the scope.LOL..i hope you can see why i break out into a hives when strippers talk about what's good for the customer. anyway, don't you mean viable hustle model?...if it was a viable business model. strippers wouldn't ask that PLs refrain from asking them out for ice cream sodas and actually go out with them instead of trying to string the suckers along. seriously, jenny does have a point. perhaps, strippers bitch is because the industry isn't regulating itself in a way that is most favorable to the stripper's cash flow.

You just made the point that ALL strippers are taking a risk of getting arrested. Not just the ones who go to the level of "earning" your money. You can't have this both ways. Either they're all at risk and therefore, all deserve to be appreciated for taking that risk, or the ones who stop short are not at as much risk, don't earn your money and therefore, it's understandable they don't garner your appreciation.actually, i think i said contact strippers not ALL strippers (i don't do air dance), but it doesn't matter. in any case, why do you ladies assume that a stripper has to give me a BBBJ in order for me to appreciate her charms? don't get me wrong, i do appreciate a stripper who's..er...very, very talented. however, you do know that strippers can give a nasty lap without unzipping my pants. then again, maybe you ladies don't know.

Now you're just elaborating on the jacking of your shit like Moneywise. Braggert.well, if i'm a braggart then i'm a very poor one. since, the only bragging i do is about how lazy i am in the sc. however, if i'm going to be accused of something. i might as well do a good job of living up to the expectations. so, next time i will talk about how strippers can't resist my big dick. instead talking about the strippers who try to pump me full of SS about this alleged big dick of mine that i've never seen or i'll maybe talk about giving some stripper the fuck of her life as evidenced by her fake moaning. on second thought, bad idea....even that sounds like a lot of work.

mr_punk
10-02-2005, 09:51 PM
I said that it would be retarded to pretend that a girl is as likely to get arrested doing fully clothed grinding as she is to get arrested while fucking the guy in the club.sure in Canada. where, IIRC, the sexual touching of dancers by customers is protected as long as it does not involve freeing willy. well, that has never been the case south of the border. keep in mind, a cop looking to bust strippers doesn't need to wait for an offer to perform a sexual act. a stripper's heavy grinding is more than enough to arrest her. i bet arresting those strippers was like shooting fish in a barrel (hell, the cops probably had more than enough time to make a donut run on way back to the station) because grinding was probably pretty common in that club more so than extras.

on a side note: IIRC, that decision was in part supported by the liberal and feminist judge Louise Arbour. i'm curious, does the average canadian stripper feel empowered by her decision?


Now you are just being naive. If we sat around pausing all day over these things, we would never get to work. The fact is that the local norms differ, usually greatly, from the local laws.quite the contrary, i'm not being naive at all. i know that laws and court rulings are the last thing on a flaky stripper mind because nothing is going to get between her and hustling that next $20 out of a customer when it's convenient to her pocketbook. however, i think they're being foolish by not being cautious.

this is not a misguided impression. And it's not about getting caught. It's about the likelihood of being arrested and charged. And a club that routinely offers full sex is more likely to be busted than a club that routinely doesn't (all other things being equal).this isn't canada. strippers do get arrested and charged with prostitution even if all they do is grind a customer heavily. LE (and they still do from the looks of it) used to bust the strippers (and customers) at Mons Venus despite the fact that MV is nothing more than a LD factory and extras are practically impossible in the place. of course, the busts (like most sc busts) were completly politically motivated. however, they were also completely legal.

Now, here's a interesting comment (entirely outside that fact that evidently at least a few people who are participating in this conversation do care). What is it, exactly, that you care about?what's so interesting about the comment? if some stripper came to me crying that she's being unfairly punished for grinding a customer's lap. would i be sympathetic? sure. however, if she went on to say that those "dirty" biatches are the reason why she got busted for trying to grind a customer into paste. well, let's say that feeling sorry for a sanctimonious stripper who is so willing to blame others for her own actions isn't on the top of my list.

Again, I am facinated by this idea of covering my ass (figuratively speaking, I presume). How exactly does one do that in this business, besides by leaving it?well, i'm not going to tell you that it's easy. unfortunately, it's the price strippers pay since many of their actions that are non-extras have never been protected by the courts. anyway, there is here is one way for a stripper to protect yourself. if she has never seen me before in the club and if no other stripper or staff member knows me either. she can start by refraining from grinding your knee (or any other body part) against my balls or how about not ginding my cock and/or playing with my gameboy for the next three songs in the RCG position or how about not asking me to adjust myself or making the adjustment yourself. so, my cock is correctly positioned in order to clench it between your ass cheeks thus allowing you to grind me into a pulp, etc, etc.

like i said, it's not easy and it will cut into your money, but here's the thing. the customer isn't going to look out for you. i wouldn't necessarily trust the sc owner to look out for you. in the end, a stripper is going to have to look out for herself. but hey, if it sounds too hard for a stripper to potentially give up that next $20. i understand, but when the sh#t hits the fan....she can't scream "it's not fair" or that she didn't know or blame it on those "dirty" girls because she got caught.

Jenny
10-03-2005, 07:28 AM
OTOH, you are a quite a biatch, but not as biatchy in that "nag-him-until-his-family jewels-drop-off" kind of way like jenny.
Oh, right. You're the one who feels the need to interject EVERY thread REPEATEDLY with "yes but did you/she free willy?" and I'm the nag. I think if we are defining nagging here, you and I are at least equally mulish.


her commando feminist training really shines in that area.I'm entirely self-trained, by the way.



a stripper's heavy grinding is more than enough to arrest her.
I know that. I am aware that the law, in most places, will not permit heavy grinding. I am tlkaing about the likelihood that a grinding stripper/grinding club will be targetted for such an arrest as opposed to one of the "freeing willy" variety (and I don't believe I have used that revolting phrase. God. I'm being worn down).

I don't know how the average stripper feels. I don't think I much fit into average opinions on anything. I do know that Arbour has a history of supporting sex worker labour rights, and wrote a very compelling dissent when the laws prohibiting common bawdy houses and soliciting for prostitution in public were upheld (interestingly enough the male Chief of Justice argued that keeping prostitutes off the streets was important because it would be detrimental in our society to see women in such a disempowering role. Arbor didn't think that was a particularly compelling argument as it makes no logical sense (like, this activity is legal, but you can't do it indoors, and you can't do it outdoors) and she pointed out that it was extremely elitist, and, in the bargain, neatly exonerated the men patronizing the prostitutes while keeping prosititution itself very borderline. The other female justice on the court at the time concurred in her dissent. Anyway - long story short - I feel empowered by her decision. I'll have to be satisfied with that.


what's so interesting about the comment?
I think I already mentioned what I found interesting. That you continually reply to threads and posts you ostensibly don't care about. So I'm wondering (actually wondering, not in the sarcastic way) what keeps drawing you into these discussions?


well, i'm not going to tell you that it's easy. unfortunately, it's the price strippers pay since many of their actions that are non-extras have never been protected by the courts.
But what you describe is, defacto, leaving the business. I'm sorry, but if you expect me to buy the "well you're asking for it by taking the job" argument - I think that is really weak and that you can do better. I was actually imagining (albeit briefly) that you would have some sort of actual suggestion.

MinahSky
10-03-2005, 05:50 PM
Ok, I have to jump in here. Where to start, where to start?

1. About Kimora Lee Simmons. She would beat a bitches asses because she actually loves her husband, their 2 children and the life they've grown together. Any other woman would most likely be after his $200 million plus fortune.

2. In many cities, prostitution can be as simple as taking the money from the customers hand for a tip for dancing on stage. However, many laws (not even having to do with SC's) are hundreds of years old and enforced (or even known unless a paralegal gets sent to dig).Ex: in some states, its still illegal for African Americans and Caucasians to marry! Lapdances are simply tolerated and the only things that are usually considered forbidden in an SC are the obvious ones: HJ, BJ, FS. All it takes for a dancer to be dragged out of the place in handcuffs is to break the simplest law (see above). If the club owner has pissed of the HLIC (Head Lawman In Charge), then that's all it will take. God forgid if the dancers actually touch a dick...

3. I think that the problem most dancers have is the the people doing extras make the club "hot" in a few ways: 1) the non-extras dancers get more aggressive custies looking for extras(it really stinks to have to fight someone off because he thinks ALL the girls do what a few do in that club); 2) the competition can get even worse when the extras ladies do them purely just to get a dance (I know not all custies want sex-but for those that do, if I offer some hot yet not extra-filled dances and someone else offers a good BJ, I'm outta luck); 3) it really SUCKS to sit down in the VIP and you sit in a WET STICKY SPOT.


There's more, but I have to go to Bed, Bath & Beyond...

talk amongst yourselves.

Nicolina
10-03-2005, 06:14 PM
Hey, Minah! Good to see you on blue again. :)




Ex: in some states, its still illegal for African Americans and Caucasians to marry!



Really? Didn't the Supreme Court ruling in Loving v. Virginia render those state 'miscegenation' statutes unconstitutional?




3. I think that the problem most dancers have is the the people doing extras make the club "hot" in a few ways: 1) the non-extras dancers get more aggressive custies looking for extras(it really stinks to have to fight someone off because he thinks ALL the girls do what a few do in that club); 2) the competition can get even worse when the extras ladies do them purely just to get a dance (I know not all custies want sex-but for those that do, if I offer some hot yet not extra-filled dances and someone else offers a good BJ, I'm outta luck); 3) it really SUCKS to sit down in the VIP and you sit in a WET STICKY SPOT.

Yep. These are all, might I point out, practical concerns, not moral judgments!



Another thing: It definitely has an effect on how you are perceived in the straight world if you reveal that you have worked as a stripper. As I pointed out previously, being a "stripper" has generally been a bit more socially acceptable than being a "prostitute." But when the lines get blurred the way they often are in the clubs these days, it just adds to the stigma around dancing, and even if you were the most prudish airdancer who ever doffed a sequinned gown in an upscale club, people will wonder if you weren't really a low-down cock-grindin', BBBJ-givin' 'ho.

SportsWriter2
10-03-2005, 06:39 PM
Really? Didn't the Supreme Court ruling in Loving v. Virginia render those state 'miscegenation' statutes unconstitutional?

Yes, it did. All laws banning interracial marriage, cohabitation, and sex became unconstitional with the 1967 decision. June 12 is the annual celebration date for Loving Day. :)

The Snark
10-03-2005, 07:35 PM
As I understand it, anti-miscegenation statutes were ruled unconstitutional but several states (such as South Carolina) still had them on the books as late as the 1990s. The statutes just weren't applied.

But what do I know; I'm just a Canadian.

Jenny
10-03-2005, 08:02 PM
Are you? Ah, so you are. I just realized.
Canada, as well, has several statutes that are on the books but that are rendered unenforcable insofar as they conflict with (for example) Charter values. The legislature actually has to remove the statutes, and they frequently don't bother when they are already deemed unenforceable.

Nic - it's funny, because my close friends are so not average, my society is very different than the society of other people. It's easy to forget that all people aren't as open minded.

Nicolina
10-03-2005, 10:16 PM
Yes, it did. All laws banning interracial marriage, cohabitation, and sex became unconstitional with the 1967 decision. June 12 is the annual celebration date for Loving Day. :)

I guess with it so close to Juneteenth, you could just take the whole week and make a big party out of it. :)

MinahSky
10-03-2005, 10:34 PM
I was referring to what Snark brought up. it's those old ass archaic ones that get you every time...


Hey Nic!!!

evan_essence
10-04-2005, 06:00 AM
This thread went off track long before I decided to add to it.I agree with MW on this, JZ. As a matter of fact, what I was asking about was a comment that pertained to one of those off tracks. But it still didn't get any clearer for me.


Your definition does not jive with my definition of a multitasker. I consider a multitasker someone that can skillfully accomplish multiple tasks in the same time it takes the linear thinker to accomplish one.:thinking:What I don't understand is how being a multitasking stripper pertains to the concept of being less likely to get caught by the cops, which is what I thought we were talking about when you first used that term.

-Ev

SportsWriter2
10-04-2005, 06:45 AM
What I don't understand is how being a multitasking stripper pertains to the concept of being less likely to get caught by the cops, which is what I thought we were talking about when you first used that term.

It's more about being caught by a bouncer or manager.

I've seen the perfect multitasking dancer in a VIP room that always has a bouncer walking in and out. She butt grinds in a corner seat, stick shifts behind her back, drops to her knees, chews on pants for five seconds, stands up, spins around once, reaches in, pulls hard on the briefs/pants/belt, sucks the head for five seconds, spins around once, grinds with her cookie, kisses the guy for four seconds, and talks dirty 94 percent of the time. She has the skittish awareness of a prairie dog on cocaine.

xdamage
10-04-2005, 08:36 AM
Yep. These are all, might I point out, practical concerns, not moral judgments!


Actually I think this is the key problem, and the reason this thread is so painfully argumentative. An inability to acknowledge that dancers and customers do infact have feelings of morality about these things like everyone else, and moral concerns are at play. I think it's because some people are unable to acknowledge contradictions in themselves, and so construct elaborate arguments and perceptions to avoid this.

Our sense of morality is learned at fairly young age. Most people end up with pretty much the same sense of morality as their parents and teachers and young friends. Ask yourself how would my parents feel about me using a hooker? Or how would my parents feel about me being a stripper? Or how would my parents feel about me taking extra money for a BJ, and well you get some sense of how it is you also feel about it to (at least how a part of you feels).

Morality is not entirely a bad thing. Behind morality is often some very good logical reasons for the belief (sometimes not of course). But somewhere along some people seem to have gotten the ridiculous notion in their head that it's wrong to have a sense of morality. Everything has to be couched in logical practical reasoning, effectively trying to pretend that they don't have the same moral feelings as others.

It's human nature to apply morality more strongly to others than we do to ourselves. Nobody really likes to admit that to themselves, and some simply can't. But it's key to why a guy might on the one hand go to a strip club or even see a hooker, and yet not wish the same for his own children, or feel disgust if his wife/gf was to do the same.. Or why a girl might engage in extras or push the laws, yet not want the same for her daughter, or feel moral disgust at others who do the same. Why a person might smoke weed occassionally, yet tell their children not to use drugs, and even feel moral disgust over those who use "harder" drugs.

One can build elaborate arguments or simply acknowledge, my sense of morality doesn't entirely jive with how I behave, and that when it comes to myself I allow myself more moral leeway than I expect of others. When you can acknowlege that a lot of the crap becomes a lot clearer and simpler.

Jenny
10-04-2005, 08:49 AM
^^^
For someone so eager to embrace multiplicity in human nature, you have a very hard time acknowledging multiplicity in people. Not everyone shares your moral standard; not everyone shares your lack of moral fibre. I DO largely live up to my morals. Does that mean I never do things wrong, or things I regret? No, of course I do. But that is not the standard of my behaviour. My standard way of behaving is in keeping with my morals and ethics, and those times that I don't live up to it are exceptions. Many people are actually more forgiving and easier on others than on themselves. (I sense a lot of that behaviour on this board as well). Maybe some people, like Nic, Susan, myself and many of the guys ACTUALLY don't have a problem, conceptually, with prostitution. Maybe that is just you, and you are projecting your hypocrisy out onto everyone else.

xdamage
10-04-2005, 09:44 AM
Maybe that is just you, and you are projecting your hypocrisy out onto everyone else.

Or I am correct and your strong reaction is indicative of my point. Such a strong need to deny that you have these conflicts of morality vs personal benefit is normal, but key to why this forum discussion goes round and round.



For someone so eager to embrace multiplicity in human nature, you have a very hard time acknowledging multiplicity in people.


This is an invalid argument. The only thing in common is the word "multiplicity". Multiplicity in one thing (the way our brains and psyches works) does not generalize to some notion that people have radically different human natures.

And in this context, the perplexing irony is that you might just think you are a lot different from others regarding how you feel, and a feel a strong need to convince yourself and others that you feel differently, yet all that is really at play is your own multiplicity (and denial of) those feelings which takes us back full circle.

I think you've said it many times, as have many girls, they don't tell their parents what they do for a living. How your parents feel (and how so many of those around you feel) has rubbed off on you and seated itself into your psyche like or not. Nobody really looks on you with any less respect for having such feelings, except for maybe those who are also in complete self denial. BTW, and I'm not saying you have this problem, but overly strong self denial about inconsistencies in our emotions and views can be indicative of "splitting", a BPD trait. The trait can be summarized basically an inability to deal with emotional and pyschological inconsistencies in themselves and others. It's normal in young kids who see things through simplistic emotional eyes, but some people don't grow out of it. They can't tolerate inconsistencies in emotions or thoughts in others or themselves and go to great efforts to avoid being seen as having inconsistencies.

doc-catfish
10-04-2005, 11:08 AM
Okay, so you're telling me I'm never impacted by this downward spiral of a different type of customer being attracted to a club that used to attract my customers. You've never seen that happen to a club? See, eventually there won't be any customers left for me to hustle because I'll be the one far outside the norm. That's why I need to claw some eyes out when I'm the norm.

Here's what's going on here. You're arguing you should be able to walk into any club anywhere anytime and get whatever the hell you want, and that doesn't effect me. Just me do my thing and your girl does her thing, never our styles nor customers shall meet, and we'll all live happily ever after. Nah. Bullshit. The clientele of the club is dictated by what goes on there. We've all seen it. So I will be affected.

-Ev
I suppose that I have to ask a few questions here on this matter, but I'll leave it to one for the moment.

Lets hypothetsize that gals in a known extras club quit perfoming them cold turkey (both ITC and OTC) and stick religiously to that. What do you suppose the after effects of that would be on the environment of that club?

Personally I can't see the customers who were in search of extras exactly spending anywhere near the same amount of money as before on "just dances". Nor can I see a flock of customers who aren't seeking extras filling the chairs the extras seekers vacate should they leave.

xdamage
10-04-2005, 11:10 AM
Let me say it once more for you. This time I will put it as plainly as possible. I care about the welfare of the lovely ladies I patronize solely because I have invested too much time & money into having it my way. They don't care about me. They care about what I carry so happily in my pocket. ;) It's a mutually rewarding self centered relationship.


This was refreshing! and basically my feelings on the matter. If there was no benefit to me I wouldn't give the matter a second thought, but then again if I brought no money into the club the strippers wouldn't give me a second of their time, so as you said, a mutually beneficial self centered relationship.

I suppose if I patroned any one stripper long enough I'd eventually entangle other emotions into the situation, but that's one reason that I don't get attached to any one stripper. Most would take advantage of such emotions given the chance.

Totally out of context of the club, I generally prefer that laws not interfere with peoples private and mutually consensual lives. In that context I'd like to see strippers have more protection under the law, but that extends to hooking (although I admit to favoring customer and prostitute protection; condoms, regular checkups, etc.)

I can understand why a stripper wouldn't want other girls hooking in the club if it puts them at risk of being arrested, but most of the grinding and sex play that goes on the clubs is already illegal. All that could be solved by making hooking legal, but somehow I don't think that's really the solution that most strippers want.

I think most strippers want the right to set their own boundaries, and would like to work in a club, and live in a society where other girls set their boundaries similarly. Afterall, if the boundaries are set much higher at 9 out of 10 clubs, or by 9 out 10 girls in a club (because its all legal) that's where the majority of customers will eventually go (once society becomes acclimated to the idea), even if they don't partake of all the possible services.

Mastridonicus
10-04-2005, 11:38 AM
Let me say it once more for you. This time I will put it as plainly as possible. I care about the welfare of the lovely ladies I patronize solely because I have invested too much time & money into having it my way. They don't care about me. They care about what I carry so happily in my pocket. It's a mutually rewarding self centered relationship.


and here I am over at McDonalds fighting, while you're over at Burger King getting it your way right away.

Wonders never cease!

yoda57us
10-04-2005, 03:48 PM
I think it’s important not to confuse morality with economics here. Most of the dancers I have known don’t spend a lot of time passing moral judgment on each other. It's pretty much driven by money and a dancer's ability to earn on terms that are within her personal comfort level. I don't think most dancers give a rats ass what an escort or streetwalker does for a living since they normally would not be operating in the same venue. The only time it bothers them is if a hooker walks into their club, plants her ass at the bar and starts soliciting for tricks; thereby putting herself in direct competition with every dancer in the club for the customer’s attention by offering a product that the dancers would prefer not to offer. In this regard, a dancer offering extras is no different than a hooker sneaking into a strip club as far as how it can affect the ability to earn for dancers who just want to dance.

The level of contact is irrelevant. No-contact clubs will always have girls who will rub your leg, medium-contact clubs will always have girls who will let you suck on their tits or finger their cookies and high-contact clubs will always have girls offering HJ/BJ/FS. I’ve known extras girls who wouldn’t date customers for money and non-extras girls who would leave the club with two guys for an all-night threesome-for free. The correlation is that there is no correlation.

Their will always be good girls and bad girls but if you sit at the bar and have a drink with the former I don't think you will find her personal moral code to be all that different from the later. I’m much more concerned about a dancer’s ethics than I am about her limits. I think it's a mistake to draw conclusions about how any woman involved in the sex industry might handle her personal life based on how far she is willing to go in order to earn a living.

Jenny
10-04-2005, 04:25 PM
x - all you are doing right now is repeating endlessly that YOU are a moral hypocrite and therefore everyone else must be. You are trying, desperately, to normalize that kind of hypocrisy, why? So that nobody has moral highground over you? You have to accept that not everyone is you - they don't all share YOUR particular values and ideas.

I agree that probably everyone has mixed feelings about prostitution. However, they are not all located in what you call morality. For example: for most purposes I think prostitution should be treated like any other job. However, on some level, for some purposes I don't. I do not think, for example (and this is the only example that leaps readily to mind) that a 14 year (of either sex) should be allowed to prostitute as an after school job, even within the norms of legal sex (for example, although it is legal for a 14 year to have consensual sex with a 16 year old, I do not think that he or she should be allowed to do it for money - although he or she is allowed to do it with as many appropriate partners as he or she desires for free). I think that prostitution should be reserved for those who have reached the age of majority, although a 16 year old can have sex with whoever she or he wants to, as many times and in as many ways for free. So, yes, I have mixed feelings about prostitution, but it is located miles from what you define as moral judgement.

As for moral values instilled in us when we were little; the entire reason that generation change certain norms is because we grow up and question those values. My parents taught me lots of things when I was little, many of which have stuck; my mother taught me to feel an overpowering sense of obligation whenever anyone does me a favour; my father taught me that it wasn't cute when little boys picked on you because they liked you (my dad's answer to a boy pulling my hair? Punch him in the face. I have never actually hit anyone, but I still appreciate the lesson). My mother also taught me that premarital sex was wrong and that only perverts masturbate; she also believed until I was almost in college that homosexuality was bad (she changed her mind on that when a close family friend revealed an unusual sexual identity and is now a fervent supporter of gay rights; even for parents, that sort of taught morality isn't fixed) I suppose I can only ask you to believe that I have not internalized these lessons, even in the slightest bit, and that I masturbate and have pre-marital sex wholly without guilt.

I have said that parents shouldn't have to deal with their kids being strippers, but you left out the appropriate context - in all of those situations I pointed out that the parents should be equally free from dealing with their children engaging in that behaviour for free. That parent/child relations in our society are extremely sanitized (and that is not a value judgement, I don't think anyone suffers over it, in general) and hence, parents are NATURALLY very uncomfortable dealing with their children's sexuality. My precise point was that most parents would be equally uncomfortable thinking about their child engaging in "stripper behaviour" (i.e. taking off one's clothes and letting strangers intimately touch you 20 or more times in a night) even if no money changed hands and they weren't in an environment especially designed for that purpose.

mr_punk
10-04-2005, 07:35 PM
I'm entirely self-trained, by the way.of course, i'm sure you're very adept at channeling your inner dworkin.

I know that. I am aware that the law, in most places, will not permit heavy grinding. I am tlkaing about the likelihood that a grinding stripper/grinding club will be targetted for such an arrest as opposed to one of the "freeing willy" variety (and I don't believe I have used that revolting phrase. God. I'm being worn down).well, let's do a quick calculation. let's see..the likelihood is entirely dependent upon who isn't getting paid off, whether or not it an election year, the police need to pad their "secondary effects" stats, the odds that the sc owner is laundering money, the police hand being forced by some community busybody (who usually forgets to mention their affiliation with some moral values political group), etc. my point is that local factors play a role in any sc getting busted. a sc owner can run a whorehouse with strippers depending on the local environment. conversely, a sc owner's club can be extra-free and still get busted. i think strippers make the mistake of thinking that local goverments make some sort of distinction between the two. in reality, their actions show that, frankly, they could care less.

I don't know how the average stripper feels. I don't think I much fit into average opinions on anything.sigh.....why do broads need to make that kind of qualifying statement. this need to distinguish yourselves from other women as if it isn't obvious. it's almost as if they assume i have been interacting with nothing, but bubble-headed bimbos my entire life...:thinking:....nevermind. please continue...

I do know that Arbour has a history of supporting sex worker labour rights, and wrote a very compelling dissent when the laws prohibiting common bawdy houses and soliciting for prostitution in public were upheld (interestingly enough the male Chief of Justice argued that keeping prostitutes off the streets was important because it would be detrimental in our society to see women in such a disempowering role. Arbor didn't think that was a particularly compelling argument as it makes no logical sense (like, this activity is legal, but you can't do it indoors, and you can't do it outdoors) and she pointed out that it was extremely elitist, and, in the bargain, neatly exonerated the men patronizing the prostitutes while keeping prosititution itself very borderline. The other female justice on the court at the time concurred in her dissent. Anyway - long story short - I feel empowered by her decision. I'll have to be satisfied with that.ok..gotcha.

I think I already mentioned what I found interesting. That you continually reply to threads and posts you ostensibly don't care about. So I'm wondering (actually wondering, not in the sarcastic way) what keeps drawing you into these discussions?well, it's not always a question of whether i personally care about the topic or not. take this thread for instance. on the surface, the topic statement by itself is a non-issue because i never thought most strippers had a problem with prostitution in general. however, the statement becomes a little more volatile (it's probably the reason why some guys think it's a question of morals rather than something else) once you move the context inside the sc. now, i've heard many of the arguments before and i find some of them to be pretty specious and while i could accept such arguments at face value. i prefer to question everything because people will believe or accept a lot of things. if it's presented in an attractive enough wrapper. anyway, i'm sure you ladies understand the principle. after all, that is how you make your money.

But what you describe is, defacto, leaving the business. I'm sorry, but if you expect me to buy the "well you're asking for it by taking the job" argument - I think that is really weak and that you can do better. I was actually imagining (albeit briefly) that you would have some sort of actual suggestion.oh, but you don't have to buy it at all. after all, you do have that luxury being up in canada and all. in any case, i'm not saying, "you're asking for it by taking the job" nor am i implying that strippers somehow deserve this type of treatment for being strippers. in any case, since you made you made the statement about "leaving the business". you do realize that is the intended effect of most of the legislation aimed at adult business (and i'm not talking about just sc). the most effective way for government to hurt or even kill any industry or business is to strangle it by overregulation. but hey, you strippers don't have to take them seriously at all. although, it sure sounds like they're taking your industry very seriously.

mr_punk
10-04-2005, 08:01 PM
1) the non-extras dancers get more aggressive custies looking for extras(it really stinks to have to fight someone off because he thinks ALL the girls do what a few do in that club);correct me if i'm wrong, but don't strippers get that anyway? i mean, i would think that some customers would even try to push physical boundaries in air dance clubs and i don't think the idea of pushing those boundaries would originate from the presence of extras in the club.

2) the competition can get even worse when the extras ladies do them purely just to get a dance (I know not all custies want sex-but for those that do, if I offer some hot yet not extra-filled dances and someone else offers a good BJ, I'm outta luck);not necessarily...it depends on the situation. for example, how hot is the stripper offering the BJ? how hot is the stripper offering the dances and how nasty are the dances? if i thought one had more value than the other. i would only pick one. OTOH, if i thought they both had value. i would first get the dances from the one stripper and the bj from the other. so, to use a porn analogy one stripper would act as the set-up man (or a fluffer (figuratively speaking, of course) for the main star. after all, it's really a team effort for willy.

it really SUCKS to sit down in the VIP and you sit in a WET STICKY SPOT.i find the floor scarier than the seats. i remember getting a dance from this stripper. i don't know if she was new to stripping or new to that club. anyway..first, she tries to hustle me by spending most of the song doing one of those tease semi-air dances to entice me to buy more dances. however, this stripper was already dead to me...she just didn't know it yet. i already made up my mind to eighty-six this broad. anyway, she gets down on the floor (away from me) like she's on stage and starts rolling around. meanwhile, i am surprised (because no stripper at that club is stupid enough to do something like that) because i know there's enough DNA on that floor to clone enough people to fill Fenway Park. at that point, i was done and as i got up to pay her. i wonder if she noticed that before i bolted as quickly as possible. i held the money at arm's length and pinched between my thumb and index finger. perhaps, i should have handed her some of my purell wipes.

Yep. These are all, might I point out, practical concerns, not moral judgments!yeah, yeah, yeah..we get the picture.

As I pointed out previously, being a "stripper" has generally been a bit more socially acceptable than being a "prostitute." But when the lines get blurred the way they often are in the clubs these days, it just adds to the stigma around dancing, and even if you were the most prudish airdancer who ever doffed a sequinned gown in an upscale club, people will wonder if you weren't really a low-down cock-grindin', BBBJ-givin' 'ho.i don't know if most people (outside of your friends) who would go along with that notion, Nicolina. furthermore, i don't think know if makes that much of a difference. I think the stigma will continue to exist whether or not the lines are blurred because people simply find the act of stripping offensive.

MinahSky
10-05-2005, 02:07 AM
1) No, Mr. Punk, we dont' get that all the time. When a club becomes more known for extras than not, then for the non-extras dancer it becomes worse. When the men that want the extras walk in because the last 10 times they have visited the club they've gotten extras, then they most likely expect them from ALL the ladies. There are clubs here in SoCal that at the VERY least, if you work there, you're giving HJ's (and that's considered "tame"). god help the dancer that rolls inthere without fair warning.

Case in point: This particular gentleman stopped me on the way to the dressing room. We talked for a few minutes, then he told me he was ready for a dance. We were off to the lap dance room when he said, "You're gonna fuck me good, right?" WHOA!!! I said, "Most certainly NOT". He said, "Well, so and so did". I told him to go find her, then. He told me that he wanted to fuck ME. <sigh> Freddy Krueger had a better chance of getting me to suck his cock then this idiot did getting a dance from me.

2) I was just assuming that the playing field was level look wise and such. What I was getting at was that Willy can be made to spirt joy juice in all kinds of ways (trust me, I know... ;)), not in just those that involve finding out if you had a bris or not. LOL!

But I digress. What I really meant was that for those that ALWAYS pick quantity over quality, the straight dancers are going to be ass out (take that how you will). Even if I give the hottest non-extras dances ever, to a mileage hound I'm gonna be worth less than Paris Hilton at the Jeopardy Tournament of Champions. (Yes, I am quite aware that not all custies are this way.)

3) It's nasty no matter WHERE the wet spot is. I don't want to sleep on my OWN sticky sweet in my own bed, let alone touch SOMEONE ELSE'S anywhere on my person AT WORK. Nasty, nasty, nasty. Ewwwwww. :smellie_s

Never mind the thought of having a small papercut I didn't notice and catching some shit by putting my hand in it. Good Lord Almighty. :O

xdamage
10-05-2005, 07:06 AM
x - all you are doing right now is repeating endlessly that YOU are a moral hypocrite and therefore everyone else must be. You are trying, desperately, to normalize that kind of hypocrisy, why?


Fair enough, but I could say the same. I think your trying desperately not to face your own (normal human) hypocracy. Your trying to paint a perfect image of yourself, and while you may be convincing yourself, I remain not. And please don't tell me well of course your not perfect, your hypocritcal sometimes like everyone ... thats the point, everyone is, sometimes and in some things.

As for why, I don't know how to make it any clearer. I think some of the strippers have the same basic feelings about prostitution that many women have about strippers. You draw your boundaries differently. But I do think that in the context of this discusssion deep seated feelings about prostitution are in play. The hypocracy issue is really a dodge and not all that relevant, an attempt to point the finger elsewhere but how we customers and strippers feel about sex work (independent of the fact that we both benefit) and how that influences where we draw our lines and how we treat each other, and how we feel about sex workers who draw their lines much further.

But maybe what you don't understand is that I don't have an absolutest position. Draw your boundaries where you will. Just don't be ignorant of your own feelings about those who draw their boudaries further and how that influences your opinions about their behavior. I certainly accept there are valid reasons for drawing boundaries. But to be fair, that extends also to women who have set boundaries about stripping too.



I agree that probably everyone has mixed feelings about prostitution. However, they are not all located in what you call morality. For example: for most purposes I think prostitution should be treated like any other job. However, on some level, for some purposes I don't. I do not think, for example (and this is the only example that leaps readily to mind) that a 14 year (of either sex) should be allowed to prostitute as an after school job, even within the norms of legal sex
(for example, although it is legal for a 14 year to have consensual sex with a 16 year old, I do not think that he or she should be allowed to do it for money - although he or she is allowed to do it with as many appropriate partners as he or she desires for free). I think that prostitution should be reserved for those who have reached the age of majority, although a 16 year old can have sex with whoever she or he wants to, as many times and in as many ways for free. So, yes, I have mixed feelings about prostitution, but it is located miles from what you define as moral judgement.


You're hung on a word, and arent seeing the forest for the trees.

Enjoy, because you will find even the word is difficult to define.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

The word "morality" can have some negative connotations, but that's not the full meaning of the word. Behind morality are people who have beliefs that are often based on some validity. When you look just a little bit past the word to what is important, peoples beliefs, whats important is how you feel and think about things. Not the word "morality"

And see based on the explination you gave above, you aren't really so different from anyone else when it comes to the topic. When it gets down to it, you do infact find there are legit questions and concerns about prostitution. You've set your lines where you will using the rationale your comfortable with, but this is precisely my point that your feelings on the matter have been influenced by others, and aren't so different. You've picked the age of consent because of the society you live in, but in may primitive cultures people were married much younger and would see a 14yr old a grown woman. But don't get hung up on the details, the more general point is you do have feelings and thoughts that prostitution brings up some tough questions.

And in fact there may be something to the belief that prostitution under some circumstances (maybe many circumstances), can be emotionally harmful to a girl. Likewise there may be something to the belief that stripping can, under some circumstances, be harmful.

Even Nic pointed out in another thread there is a vast difference between stripping and prostitution, and the impact on a woman. I would say its a big scale rather than an absolute, but what applies to one end of the scale probably applies to the other (to some lesser degree). And I would say on that scale, at least some strippers, feel about prostitutes (at least to some degree) no different then the way many women feel about strippers.




As for moral values instilled in us when we were little; the entire reason that generation change certain norms is because we grow up and question those values.


Generations tend to push the limits a bit but rarely make dramatic leaps. They tend to still be more alike their parents then not.



I have said that parents shouldn't have to deal with their kids being strippers, but you left out the appropriate context - in all of those situations I pointed out that the parents should be equally free from dealing with their children engaging in that behaviour for free.

Whatever you need to do sure, but it goes deeper then just avoiding telling them for their sake, or at least it would in what I consider to be normal. In a normal person it would almost assuredly have to do with a lot of feelings of self worth and struggles. Not saying you should tell them jack, but one can deal with the feelings on the matter honestly (or not).



I don't think most dancers give a rats ass what an escort or streetwalker does for a living since they normally would not be operating in the same venue. The only time it bothers them is if a hooker walks into their club, plants her ass at the bar and starts soliciting for tricks; thereby putting herself in direct competition with every dancer in the club for the customer’s attention by offering a product that the dancers would prefer not to offer. In this regard, a dancer offering extras is no different than a hooker sneaking into a strip club as far as how it can affect the ability to earn for dancers who just want to dance.


Many people don't give a rats ass if a girl is a hooker or a stripper as long as it doesn't directly affect them. Your economic point is valid, however there are reasons why a girl sets her own limits, and behind those limits tend to be strong social (often for valid reasons) influences. I think we would be naive to believe that strippers are emotionally free of the the same feelings shared by the society they were brought up in, or that those feelings didn't shape their own limits.

evan_essence
10-05-2005, 10:30 AM
Personally I can't see the customers who were in search of extras exactly spending anywhere near the same amount of money as before on "just dances". Nor can I see a flock of customers who aren't seeking extras filling the chairs the extras seekers vacate should they leave.It would take effort to draw new customers and it would take awhile for the turnover to be complete. Word of mouth, or excuse me, viral marketing as it's now known, would have to get around and/or an advertising campaign would need to be launched. And things like a new name and some remodeling would help reinforce the concept. Obviously, you couldn't state outright ("nothing terribly sleazy or illegal!") what you want to communicate; you'd have to do it with some clever semantics and imaging that appeal to the new target audience of the club. Before that, it wouldn't hurt to know, via scientific survey of potential customers, what kind of customer base there is and what types of entertainment they want. It'd be nice to gauge potential public opposition, too. Perhaps you're right and a certain change wouldn't be feasible in a given market area. But heavens, now I'm talking about research, plotting strategy and running things like a real business.

-Ev

Nicolina
10-05-2005, 10:43 AM
Actually I think this is the key problem, and the reason this thread is so painfully argumentative. An inability to acknowledge that dancers and customers do infact have feelings of morality about these things like everyone else, and moral concerns are at play. I think it's because some people are unable to acknowledge contradictions in themselves, and so construct elaborate arguments and perceptions to avoid this.

Our sense of morality is learned at fairly young age. Most people end up with pretty much the same sense of morality as their parents and teachers and young friends.

How are you defining "morality", x? I assume you're discussing "sexual mores." You may also be assuming that everyone's family instills a similar sense of "morality" in their children.

My father was an atheist and a Communist. In my family, "morality" had to do with redistribution of the wealth, and the treatment of the working classes.

I never once went to church. Nobody in my family had been brought up with strong religious beliefs, and none of them bought traditional ideas about "sexual morality." Everyone in my family believed that sexual repression was a huge problem in society. As a kid, my parents never told me that masturbation was "bad"--in fact, they never even told me that it was something to be done in private. (I figured it out on my own, eventually.) When I was very young and I asked about lesbians, my parents explained that it referred to two women who loved each other so much that they wanted to get married. I think I was about four, and I replied, "Oh, how beautiful! Two brides!" :D I recall having conversations about anal sex at the family dinner table. I have a random memory of my Dad, when I was about twelve, telling me about a funny shirt he'd seen at a store in Greenwich Village that read, "Oral sex is a dark and lonely job, but goddammit, somebody's got to do it!" :O

Despite the fact that I grew up with no religious influence, in my mind, the only "moral compass" you need is pretty well summed up by The Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). I also like "judge not, lest ye be judged."

So really, when I say that I don't have a moral problem with prostitution, it may be because I have a hard time relating it to "morality" as I learned it.




Ask yourself how would my parents feel about me using a hooker? Or how would my parents feel about me being a stripper? Or how would my parents feel about me taking extra money for a BJ

xdamage, perhaps you are failing to realize that I know exactly how my parents feel about these things. When I started dancing, I told them immediately. (I was on a payphone at a club in Connecticut. They were in Hungary on business.) When it came to my involvement in the sex industry, they worried about my safety, but they didn't beat me or berate me or threaten to disown me. In fact, they never once approached it as a "moral issue".