Log in

View Full Version : For all of you who think pinkies are such hardliners on hooking . . .



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5

evan_essence
10-05-2005, 11:13 AM
3) It's nasty no matter WHERE the wet spot is. I don't want to sleep on my OWN sticky sweet in my own bed, let alone touch SOMEONE ELSE'S anywhere on my person AT WORK. Nasty, nasty, nasty. Ewwwwww.But if you strippers didn't have Sticky to bitch and moan about, you'd still be sitting around the bar whining about some other reason you weren't happy on the job. That's why I pay my $20, to not have to hear you yelp like a scolded puppy when you get stuck in a wet spot. Some girls will gladly accept Sticky without complaint to earn that $20. The others, I don't have to give my money to because it's my hard earned money. I don't force them to sit in Sticky; I won't come right out and say, "Sit in the Sticky, bitch! You love it!" but if they don't accept it graciously when it happens, I move on.

I worry about it when strippers tell customers that a non-sticky environment would be good for customers. They're as judgmental and hypocritical as the public is about them. They don't realize the public makes no moral distinction between a stripper who will roll in Sticky and one who reacts violently against it. Health-related arguments against Sticky are merely veiled attempts to justify one's hypocrisy with embellished concern about chronic sickness and early death.

With most flaky strippers, if it's not one bizarre act, it's another, so there's little significant difference. One could take a black light or Luminol or whatever those CSI things are, and determine that microscopic DNA exists everywhere, so you're sitting in some Sticky even when you think you aren't. Remember, one person's leftover Sticky deposit is another person's hope to achieve a Sticky deposit. Not to mention, think about all the cooties you rub against when you're on stage working the pole, which customers aren't even responsible for. Therefore, go ahead and just roll in it. I mean roll with it. Inhale it. Embrace it. Lick it. Deify it. It's part of the customer service job you signed up for. The days of the non-sticky club died with the Atomic Energy Commission, Conelrad and Duck & Cover.

::)

-Ev

Nicolina
10-05-2005, 11:22 AM
Bravo, Ev.

Nicely done.

Jenny
10-05-2005, 12:52 PM
Wow.

Just.

Wow.

Check out my speechlessness.

yoda57us
10-05-2005, 04:43 PM
Many people don't give a rats ass if a girl is a hooker or a stripper as long as it doesn't directly affect them. Your economic point is valid, however there are reasons why a girl sets her own limits, and behind those limits tend to be strong social (often for valid reasons) influences. I think we would be naive to believe that strippers are emotionally free of the the same feelings shared by the society they were brought up in, or that those feelings didn't shape their own limits.

I'm not saying strippers are emotionally free of anything. What I'm saying is that they are able to separate emotion from the equation while working in order to make money. I'm not saying it's always easy, but if hey couldn't they would starve. Would the average woman walk up to a strange guy on the street, hug him, tell him how handsome he is and then duck into a phone booth and accept $20 bills from him in 3 or 4 minute increments to grind on his lap? No. A dancer can do this because she is able to temporarily suspend a certain part of her reality in order to fulfill another part-the need to earn.

Katrine
10-05-2005, 06:33 PM
Evan, you sounded JUST like Mr_Punk there. Is there a rat in the whorehouse (or something?)

Katrine
10-05-2005, 06:38 PM
I'm not saying strippers are emotionally free of anything. What I'm saying is that they are able to separate emotion from the equation while working in order to make money.

Its acting, its all an act. Its the same as the trophy wife who suckles her ugly millionaire's husband's balls lovingly and every night. Its the same as Jenna Jameson getting it on with a double dildo and a some guy with a 12" cock. The performance IS the service/product. Call it fantasy or dick grinding if you will.

Our "self" is 100% based on outside judgements and expectations. So yes, we often feel like whores because we're supposed to, but its excerted externally upon us, it doesn't come from the inside.

What makes ME feel bad isn't the sexual content, its the lies and bullshit, which are 100% required to do a job well done. You customers demand the sucking up and feigned interest. Otherwise, I would have no problem just rotating my bottom upon your pencil dicks without saying nary a word or even looking at you. So cruel, yet true, well, for the most part.

SportsWriter2
10-05-2005, 06:44 PM
Ev, you have moments of brilliance. :D

Scariest thing I learned this summer was on a crime show. The forensic lab checked an upscale hotel bedspread for a suspected rapist's semen. They found semen samples from 12 different guys!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you imagine how many different samples there are on those blotchy patterned bedspreads in Motel 6? Or Red Roof? I just toss those things into a far corner. :O

MinahSky
10-05-2005, 07:17 PM
Ev, for some reason if I say it's raining out side, you have to say it's freakin' sunny.

I do my job and I dont bitch about it. Why? Because I chose it. But this has nothing to do with our job. If I don't do something at home, I'm not going to do it ANY-FUCKING-WHERE. That was the point of the section of my post you chose to bring up. Not so-called bitching about it. And this is a free country. I can bitch about who I want, where I want, when I want in any fucking language I want. That also means you can like it or lump it.

I dont' yelp like a puppy, since I am not one.


Lay off me, Ev.

Nicolina
10-05-2005, 07:29 PM
Minah, I read Ev's post as satire....specifically, I think she was speaking in the voice of a fictional customer (based, I might venture to guess, on some of our beloved blueballers--mr. punk and xdamage come to mind).

[And damn good satire at that. ;) Ev, you should write for the Onion...]

SportsWriter2
10-05-2005, 07:40 PM
Minah, I read Ev's post as satire....
Ev was just writing a ridiculous blueballer response to you, Minah. Too bad she didn't borrow the "face in her butt" avatar. :D

Moneywise
10-05-2005, 08:03 PM
Minah, I read Ev's post as satire....specifically, I think she was speaking in the voice of a fictional customer (based, I might venture to guess, on some of our beloved blueballers--mr. punk and xdamage come to mind).

[And damn good satire at that. ;) Ev, you should write for the Onion...]

Twas cute Ev. For a moment there I thought you were going bipolar or something. :P

A good sense of humor is essential in all walks of life. Nice read. :yes:

evan_essence
10-06-2005, 06:41 AM
Lay off me, Ev.Aw, honey, your remark was the jumping off point for the satire, but it wasn't meant to be directed at you. I thought my content was so absurd that it wouldn't be taken seriously, but I should have realized that type of assumption routinely gets authors in trouble. I'm sorry I didn't include mock <satire> </satire> tags or some other obvious disclaimer that it was a spoof parroting the response you might get from an overly zealous bluebee. Forgive me? :ashamed:

And trust me, if I wrote real criticism of you that arrogantly, you'd have no shortage of defenders ready to chop my head off in a show of support. I think most of the boys kinda have a crush on you, and probably some of the women as well. For good reason. If I weren't spoken for, I'd be enamored too. Especially after the way you told me off. Now that was f*ckin' hot. ;)

-Ev

doc-catfish
10-06-2005, 08:30 AM
Health-related arguments against Sticky are merely veiled attempts to justify one's hypocrisy with embellished concern about chronic sickness and early death.
That seems to be my home club owner's philosiphy on the state of the men's bathroom there, and "sticky" is exactly what your shoes will be after you use it.


Scariest thing I learned this summer was on a crime show. The forensic lab checked an upscale hotel bedspread for a suspected rapist's semen. They found semen samples from 12 different guys!!!!!!!!!!!! Can you imagine how many different samples there are on those blotchy patterned bedspreads in Motel 6? Or Red Roof?
Oh, don't remind me Sporty. To sleep comfortably in a Motel 6, you truly need to have willing suspension of disbelief in regards to the state of the linens (either that, or some potent alcohol to drink).

Although truthfully, there's probably more hooking going on at the local Radisson than the Econo Lodge. Guys who can afford good hookers can afford good hotel rooms. Budgety johns usually bypass the chains and head for the $22/night mom & pop roach motels.

Mastridonicus
10-06-2005, 09:13 AM
Oh yes, I must concure,

At ybor strip, I was nieve enough to wonder why patrons are going to the bathroom after the specials. It all made sense so quick. Especially because I was sitting close to the door, and some guys don't like to keep their manual orgasms to themselves.

I also agree upon the whole hotel thing,

While I can stay at a motel6, If bringing a woman back is an option, dancer or otherwise, the Renaissance it is. But really, its not for her, It helps add to the enjoyment i would say.

But let me say this. If the local "Travel Lodge" is the only option.....its the only option.

mr_punk
10-06-2005, 07:32 PM
But if you strippers didn't have Sticky to bitch and moan about, you'd still be sitting around the bar whining about some other reason you weren't happy on the job.yes.

That's why I pay my $20, to not have to hear you yelp like a scolded puppy when you get stuck in a wet spot.YES!

Some girls will gladly accept Sticky without complaint to earn that $20. The others, I don't have to give my money to because it's my hard earned money.YES!YES!YES!

::)tease...:'(...LOL.

Evan, you sounded JUST like Mr_Punk there. is that it? until the end..i knew there was some reason why i almost started to like her

What makes ME feel bad isn't the sexual content, its the lies and bullshit, which are 100% required to do a job well done. You customers demand the sucking up and feigned interest.true...guys do want to walk out of the whorehouse feeling loved.

Otherwise, I would have no problem just rotating my bottom upon your pencil dicks without saying nary a word or even looking at you. So cruel, yet true, well, for the most part.quite the contrary, i don't find it cruel at all. then again, i've always been more of a PSE type customer.

Katrine
10-06-2005, 09:24 PM
then again, i've always been more of a PSE type customer.

PSE is a highly underrated SS act. I'm a big fan of that. Hell, I don't even mind pants splooging, as long as its inside the pants and I don't have to touch it. I find a good run of PSE preferance customers far less mentally draining than the GFE customers who want to cuddle and talk. Plus I get a better workout from the former since I will be grinding more vigorously. See if I hold this opinion tomorrow though, the right asshole can make me reneg in a split second.

mr_punk
10-08-2005, 06:15 PM
PSE is a highly underrated SS act. I'm a big fan of that. Hell, I don't even mind pants splooging, as long as its inside the pants and I don't have to touch it. I find a good run of PSE preferance customers far less mentally draining than the GFE customers who want to cuddle and talk.really? anyway, i wouldn't know how underrated or mentally draining either act may be to a stripper, kat. however, if this MB is any indication. i get the feeling that most strippers around here think they are some kind of performance artist rather than sex workers serving the base psychological and sexual needs of their customers. but hey, "fantasy" seems to be the breakfast of champions around here.

Jenny
10-08-2005, 06:32 PM
Whatever is PSE anyway?

MinahSky
10-08-2005, 06:37 PM
Porn Star Experience

Sorry if I misunderstood, Ev. Thanks for clarifying. I don't know about anyone having crushes on lil ol' me, though. ;) I would gladly accept any suitors, I happen to be quite the single right now. :O (Applications here! Applications anyone? LOL!) }:D

Nicolina
10-08-2005, 06:43 PM
I find a good run of PSE preferance customers far less mentally draining than the GFE customers who want to cuddle and talk.

Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, I'd rather sell my ass than my soul.

SportsWriter2
10-08-2005, 08:02 PM
I find a good run of PSE preferance customers far less mentally draining than the GFE customers who want to cuddle and talk.
Same here. I hate when a good PSE says, "I don't wanna be your little whore anymore; I wanna be your girlfriend." :O


Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, I'd rather sell my ass than my soul.
When you buy a soul, everything else pretty much comes with it. :)

"

mr_punk
10-08-2005, 09:56 PM
Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, I'd rather sell my ass than my soul.well, my father already has your souls :devil:. so, all that's left is your ass...preferably sticking out towards my face. seriously, your answer is a surprise as opposed to Kat's. i mean, if i had to guess. i would have thought that PSE would be more mentally draining than GFE for you because a lot of strippers are offended by the whole sex object/objectification issue. BTW, i've never been banished from SW and considering the topic being discussed where you made that statement. i hope you can see why.

Nicolina
10-08-2005, 11:14 PM
well, my father already has your souls :devil:. so, all that's left is your ass...preferably sticking out towards my face.
I'd oblige, but I've already posted those pictures elsewhere. ;)


seriously, your answer is a surprise as opposed to Kat's. i mean, if i had to guess. i would have thought that PSE would be more mentally draining than GFE for you because a lot of strippers are offended by the whole sex object/objectification issue.
Well, I'm surprised that you're surprised. When I first started posting here, I made it clear that I didn't think objectification was a bad thing in the biz...it allowed me to compartmentalize better, and allowed the customers to more freely indulge in fantasy. I was a hit-and-run hustler like Kat. I didn't have a lot of regulars, because I wasn't willing to pretend to be some needy fucker's best friend. To me, that was far more demanding than giving a dirty lapdance. I was selling a physical experience, not access to my psyche.

I could care less about being a 'sex object.' I considered it part of the job--and not uncomfortable or insulting either.


BTW, i've never been banished from SW and considering the topic being discussed where you made that statement. i hope you can see why.

Ooooohhh.....so now I know you read pink. :P
I was just teasing....though I'm not sure what you mean by "considering the topic being discussed....I hope you can understand why." Care to explain?

Nicolina
10-08-2005, 11:17 PM
When you buy a soul, everything else pretty much comes with it. :)


Exactly. But when you buy an ass, the soul is not necessarily included.

MinahSky
10-08-2005, 11:23 PM
Hell, it's like in "Titanic" (brought up ONLY for the comment made), I'd rather be "his" whore, than "your" wife... For me, this means I'd rather be with someone of my own choosing and be less wealthy yet still happy than be miserable with someone I despise although the money would be plentiful.


I know many wealthy (not rich, I saw the Chris Rock special, "I'm not talking about rich, I'm talking about wealthy") people that would give their eyeteeth (always wanted to say that) to have less money and more genuine happiness. I live in Los Angeles and see it first hand every day.

I grew up seeing it in my community. I had a car before I had a driver's license. Most of us drove to school in Porsches and BMW's. I learned the value of a dollar at a young age, however. One thing always repeated to me was that if I had some thing too early, I would not appreciate it later on, when I should have it.

I say all of this to make this point: What I have I have earned. It's mine. No one can take it from me because I got it the right way. I worked for it. Fuck all those that don't like that I did it by dancing/stripping. Five years from now when I'm sitting in my paid off house, with my paid off cars and my money in the bank, I will be no where near all those naysayers. I won't be married to some asshole I can't stand and all the cocks I grinded will be a mere memory.

I have no delusions about what I do or where I do it. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The minute I choose to dance whether it was in a bikini bar with no touching at all or a fully nude place, I became a whore to a great many people. People that I tell to go to hell because when my child needs something, they do not provide it. People that can kiss my enTIRE ass because they do many things much worse than I ever will. People whose own children are so screwed up that they need to pay more attention to their life than mine. So what I do makes no difference. Another saying I grew up with is "anything you can do at 12 midnight you can do at 3 in the afternoon". If you're a whore, you dont' need to be on the street or in a strip club to be one.


And hell yeah, I want my damn $20 when you cum and haven't the good sense given to you to put a condom on before we dance. You know you're gonna splooge. Perhaps then you'll be more inclined to saddle up before I ride...


I really should not post when I'm so tired...LOL!

GnBeret
10-09-2005, 02:21 AM
... I have no delusions about what I do or where I do it.... People that can kiss my enTIRE ass because they do many things much worse than I ever will.... If you're a whore, you dont' need to be on the street or in a strip club to be one.

"Pot?!?...," "Kettle!!!" Ja ja ja... although I'm obviously not telling you anything you don't already know, dancers don't even rate when compared to some of the real whores (who, coincidentally, comprise a large part of the group of "people" that run around name-calling) running around in the so-called "white-collar" business world. Trust me on this one... you want to see some REAL "whores," check out the lawyers and accountants whose specialty is 'Keepin' the World Safe for Banks and Oil Companies'!



.. I really should not post when I'm so tired...LOL

Why? 'Cause you're too tired to be "PC?" Screw that - much better this way!

yoda57us
10-09-2005, 08:26 AM
Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, I'd rather sell my ass than my soul.

Well said Nic (as usual).

The problem with "clingy" regulars is that they think it's a package deal. The dancers I know who make the most money are the ones who are best at compartmentalizing the ass from the heart/soul. Some girls can handle stringing along regulars AND doing the hit and run thing but the regular has to be worth her time. I consider myself a regular with about 6 ladies. A couple of them I have known for five or six years now. I show up on slow nights and they know I'm going to spend on them. We shoot the breeze for a while, do some griding and go onto the next piece of ass in another club. I'm not gonna ask them out or whine if they see an oportunity elsewhere in the club and want to go pursue it. Anytime OTC is initaited it's always from the dancer's side. Most of my favs know that I see escorts as well and I think this actualy removes some of the pressure (on both sides) that I will eventualy start looking for more than they want to offer.

evan_essence
10-09-2005, 02:43 PM
yes.
YES!
YES!YES!YES!
tease...:'(...LOL.Aw poor baby. You forgot I'm a strip tease artiste. :P

-Ev

evan_essence
10-09-2005, 02:52 PM
Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, I'd rather sell my ass than my soul.Ah, but it's so much easier to fake selling your soul. I've yet to figure out how to fake the sale of ass. Perhaps slipping him a roofie before he takes delivery.

-Ev

Nicolina
10-09-2005, 04:52 PM
Ah, but it's so much easier to fake selling your soul.

-Ev

Perhaps that's true. But the idea of faking something like that is so distasteful to me that I'd never even try.

SportsWriter2
10-09-2005, 06:26 PM
Ah, but it's so much easier to fake selling your soul.

Perhaps that's true. But the idea of faking something like that is so distasteful to me that I'd never even try.
A favorite once told me, "If you can fake selling your soul, you don't have a soul." Almost everyone uses some method of dissociation to cope with past traumatic events, but expanding that dissociation can be dangerously self-alienating. :-\

Nicolina
10-09-2005, 08:52 PM
Can't . . . move. . . . Thumb . . . in . . . ass. . . . Send . . . help!
:D :D
OMG, mr. p.!!! I remember that one!!! My friends and I adopted that as a catch phrase for a time...I'd totally forgotten about it til now!


frankly, i put these guys in the same category as customers who push like to push the physical boundaries of strippers. the difference is that they like to push emotional boundaries instead.

That's really rather insightful of you, mr. p. :O

Some girls are more comfortable stretching their physical boundaries; others are more comfortable stretching their emotional boundaries. I was in the former category.

But that said, I can't deny that there really were some customers who behaved very well in SC--they weren't PLs/RILs who pushed emotional boundaries, and they weren't raincoaters who pushed physical boundaries. They paid for what we offered and respected the boundaries we set, had a good time ITC and went home happy at the end of the night. Sorry, punk, but dancers really do appreciate those guys....

Jenny
10-09-2005, 08:52 PM
Okay - do we really think that we can equate pretending to like someone (regardless of how ethical you might find that, or how unpleasant you might find that) is selling your soul?

I'm not exactly sure what selling your soul would involve - what you are providing, and why it would make you feel that you are giving up an integral part of yourself. I mean I find that pretending to like someone is a drag, and, honestly, I find it unethical to (directly) lead a customer to believe that he is buying something he is not buying (i.e. the opportunity to either directly or eventually sleep with me, or date me or get married and have children). But I don't know that doing it would rob me of my soul - I think it would just make for an unpleasant week.

These guys, by the way, are not really looking for an extra soul. They mostly just want you to pay attention to them and to like them.

Nicolina
10-09-2005, 10:10 PM
Okay - do we really think that we can equate pretending to like someone (regardless of how ethical you might find that, or how unpleasant you might find that) is selling your soul?

I'm not exactly sure what selling your soul would involve - what you are providing, and why it would make you feel that you are giving up an integral part of yourself.


Jenny, those are really fair questions, and I wish I could explain better what I am talking about. I actually tried, in that last post, but I couldn't.

All I know is that when I flirted briefly with the possibility of having a regular that I saw OTC--you know, one of those well-meaning, but socially inept and slightly creepy guys who offer to take you shopping/take you out on the town thinking that it will lead to true love--I found that I just couldn't do it. When he called me, I literally felt physically ill.

A lot of guys don't just want you to pretend to like them--they really want access to your personal life. They want to talk to you every day. They want to pay for your car repairs, and drive you around while your car is in the shop. They want to meet your kids. They want you to call them when you have a fight with your boyfriend, and offer you a place to stay. They want to help you move. They want you to become dependent on them.

Now, it's one thing if the guy is doing it, genuinely, out of friendship. I'm sure there have been cases where there was a relationship like this and genuine mutual affection was involved.

However, if the guy really is a PL/RIL, and he's doing all this in the hopes that you really will love him one day, and you're leading him to believe that he has a snowball's chance in hell of someday being your boyfriend....If you're using him for what he's willing to do for you, and he's encouraging your dependence on him because he's hoping that, in a moment of weakness, you'll give in and begin to share with him everything that you would share with someone with whom you are in love.....That's where we get into really yucky territory.

I totally understand why some girls get into relationships like that, especially if they have no family safety net. I have a harder time understanding the motivation of the RIL.

I suppose I'm being melodramatic when I use the term "selling your soul." I guess you're right, and the reason I find it distasteful is that it's just really dishonest. If you see that the guy in question is very emotionally vulnerable, and really seems to be believing that he's "dating" you, even though he has to pay you every time he takes you out, and if you meanwhile find him quite unattractive and would never in a million years spend time with him if money was removed from the equation...then clearly, you're doing something unethical. To me, it's morally suspect, because you're doing something that is hurtful to another person. It's just a simple case of "do unto others..."

But really, I guess I'm just talking about the Obsessive Love guys here. I'm not talking about the normal (i.e. non-obsessive) guys who you actually kind of like, who occasionally take you out for a nice dinner and some conversation, with some vague hope that they might get you drunk enough (or offer you enough cash) to get lucky.

The reason I can't handle the obsessive love guys myself just has to do with my own emotional makeup. For one thing, I think there must be something seriously wrong with them if they're obsessed with me. For another, I'm really (in some ways) a pretty fiercely private person whose inner life isn't really an open book to anyone, not even my very closest friends. (Why do you think I'm so fucking addicted to this anonymous sharing of my inner life here on SW? ::) Sick, but kinda true...yikes.) I need massive amounts of time alone, and I reserve my limited social/emotional energy for my important relationships.

This is, perhaps, why I felt that letting the obsessive-love type guys into my personal life constituted giving up an "integral part of myself." And it really did feel that way to me--that's a pretty apt description. (Happily, though, I didn't attract the obsessive love guys too terribly often...)

I think maybe the girls who handle this type of relationship best are the ones who are kind of emotionally insatiable themselves--the obsessive love offered by a RIL partially fills those emotional voids in her own psyche (or soul). I just don't think I have the right kind of voids to fill....

Good Lord, did that make any sense at all?????? Please forgive my rambling....I just can't seem to shut up lately...

yoda57us
10-10-2005, 05:25 AM
Nic: Yeah, it makes sense. To me, the key to being successful as a dancer has a lot to do with identifying and honoring your own physical as well as EMOTIONAL limits. Some will call it "selling your soul" while others will call it good acting. All that matters is that you identify and apply what works for you, not the girl in the chair next to you. It doesn't mean you will never exceed one of those personal limits at one time or another when a customer waves enough cash in your face or sounds sincere enough to-at least temporarily-cause you to let down your guard. It happens; we are all human and all fallible.

evan_essence
10-10-2005, 06:39 AM
A lot of guys don't just want you to pretend to like them--they really want access to your personal life. They want to talk to you every day. They want to pay for your car repairs, and drive you around while your car is in the shop. They want to meet your kids. They want you to call them when you have a fight with your boyfriend, and offer you a place to stay. They want to help you move. They want you to become dependent on them.A lot of customers aren't satisfied with having limited contact with my body; they really want full sexual contact with my body. So I've drawn a line and I've been sticking to it. I don't see much difference in either scenario.


However, if the guy really is a PL/RIL, and he's doing all this in the hopes that you really will love him one day, and you're leading him to believe that he has a snowball's chance in hell of someday being your boyfriend....If you're using him for what he's willing to do for you, and he's encouraging your dependence on him because he's hoping that, in a moment of weakness, you'll give in and begin to share with him everything that you would share with someone with whom you are in love.....That's where we get into really yucky territory.How am I using him any more than I'm using him in a lap dance? I do my best to Svengali him in any dance to buy more. Should I stop that and advise him that the truth is it's not the wisest use of his money? In this case, he simply wants a different service. Am I using him if I deliver what he orders? If I am using him, is he not using me to an equal degree? Ya know, I'm not going to pronounce that if I don't offer it, someone else will, because I understand the fallacies in that, but I will observe this. I don't think I'm protecting him by not being the provider.


I totally understand why some girls get into relationships like that, especially if they have no family safety net.Gee, whatever happened to the motivators of it's a job, it's money, and it's not for real?


I suppose I'm being melodramatic when I use the term "selling your soul." I guess you're right, and the reason I find it distasteful is that it's just really dishonest. If you see that the guy in question is very emotionally vulnerable, and really seems to be believing that he's "dating" you, even though he has to pay you every time he takes you out, and if you meanwhile find him quite unattractive and would never in a million years spend time with him if money was removed from the equation...then clearly, you're doing something unethical. To me, it's morally suspect, because you're doing something that is hurtful to another person. It's just a simple case of "do unto others..."I think you just shot the engine out of the entire industry business model. By that line of reasoning, I also shouldn't be interacting in a sexual way with any customer because it's not motivated by true sexual interest, therefore dishonest. I'd never lap him if money were removed from the equation. My sexually stimulating interactions ITC might be hurtful because how do I know whether he has a healthy or unhealthy attitude about it? I haven't conducted a psychological profile on him. How do I know whether or not his wife or girlfriend know about his visits and may consider it cheating? Ad infinitum.

If the whole stripper transaction, be it GFE or PSE, isn't based on the principle of caveat emptor, then it doesn't exist ethically under any scenario. Each party is playing with mental fire and each must take responsibility for their own actions. For instance, if I fall into some of my old self-destructive habits because I'm exposing myself to this environment, it's not reasonable for me to expect him to take responsibility for that. (Let's say via a special tax for government programs to help destitute strippers.) I'm not his victim and he's not mine. If the exchange of money for company isn't registering on his radar screen that the interaction isn't about how I really feel about him, I'm not going to take responsibility for his suspension of the suspension of disbelief.


But really, I guess I'm just talking about the Obsessive Love guys here. I'm not talking about the normal (i.e. non-obsessive) guys who you actually kind of like, who occasionally take you out for a nice dinner and some conversation, with some vague hope that they might get you drunk enough (or offer you enough cash) to get lucky.Unless I become a mind reader, it's going to be rather difficult for me to sort out matters of subtle degree. Call me mercenary, but I'm of the opinion that if I size up that it's not dangerous for me, it's not dangerous for him either.


The reason I can't handle the obsessive love guys myself just has to do with my own emotional makeup. For one thing, I think there must be something seriously wrong with them if they're obsessed with me.You make this sound like you're not desireable. Likewise, is there something seriously wrong with the ones who drool over you physically?


For another, I'm really (in some ways) a pretty fiercely private person whose inner life isn't really an open book to anyone, not even my very closest friends. .... I need massive amounts of time alone, and I reserve my limited social/emotional energy for my important relationships.I can relate. But I don't feel that's me out there. Well, it's not the personal me. It's the work me. As a matter of fact, the personal me isn't nearly as competent at its duties as the work me is at its duties. The work me is good. The personal me is damn near dysfunctional at the moment.


(Happily, though, I didn't attract the obsessive love guys too terribly often...)Me neither. But I'm happy about it because the payoff isn't as likely to be worth the work, not because of some inherent evil. Of course, once I'm cast into the fiery pit, I may concede I should have shared your view.


I think maybe the girls who handle this type of relationship best are the ones who are kind of emotionally insatiable themselves--the obsessive love offered by a RIL partially fills those emotional voids in her own psyche (or soul). I just don't think I have the right kind of voids to fill....I understand that most of what you're saying is actually an outline for what's right for you, but I think you're straying into dime store psychology with some of your conclusions about what must motivate others. By this same line of reasoning, can we conclude that girls who concentrate on some level of physical interaction are physically insatiable? Are their customers filling their sexual voids? Or is that a stereotype that's not the norm?

-Ev

SportsWriter2
10-10-2005, 06:54 AM
I totally understand why some girls get into relationships like that, especially if they have no family safety net. I have a harder time understanding the motivation of the RIL.

You explained everything well from your POV. But some other realities grow deep and scary.

DIL: beautiful, fun, 20, mom dead, father in jail, cokehead XBF, no friendship network, no confidence in herself
RIL: good loooking, money, 48, bitter divorce, alienated children, stressful job, limited friendship network outside profession

It's a "You're all I have" kind of emotional hurricane, started by the vacuum at the center and fueled by the warm red environment of the club.

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 09:22 AM
Ev: I don't have time for a long or well-thought-out response, but let me just say that I think it goes back to the whole notion of strip clubs as Special Ethical Arenas. IN THE CLUB, it's buyer beware, and if a guy doesn't get it, that's not your problem. Whatever works for you ITC, go for it--everything's fair game (though I personally didn't feel comfortable encouraging guys who seemed to have Obsessive Love characteristics, even ITC...)

I was specifically speaking about OTC relationships--and not just an occasional dinner date with possible play-for-pay. I was talking about guys who desperately want to gain access to "the real you," and become involved with your real life. I can't tell from your post whether you've experienced this or not.

You say that you can't sort out an obsessive guy from a non-obsessive guy, but I just don't believe you. From what I read here, you're incredibly astute. I'm betting you can tell the difference between someone who's really emotionally vulnerable and obsessive and slightly delusional and someone who is more casually interested in you for companionship and/or sex.

The former just freaks me out--you're right, it's a personal thing. It doesn't work for me--dealing with it feels like a sacrifice that I'm not willing to make, no matter how much money is involved. If it works for you, if it doesn't feel like a sacrifice, if you're okay with it, then go for it....As you say, if you don't, someone else will. It just won't be me.

The thing about girls who can handle that kind of relationship being emotionally insatiable was just conjecture based on personal observation; I didn't mean to imply that ALL women who get involved in that kind of intense customer/sex worker relationship are emotionally insatiable. Like I said, sometimes they just do it because they really need the financial support.

(And frankly, yes, I am sorta physically insatiable. So there. :P)

I guess I'm just more comfortable selling my body/physical interaction versus selling my mind/emotional interaction because the latter feels (obviously) like it has more to do with my "real self"/"soul." All of this could just stem from the fact that I'm not a very talented actress. Or liar.

(When I use the term soul, btw, I'm not invoking it in any kind of religious sense. I'm just referring to a person's core being--I guess, in that sense, "mind" and "soul" are pretty much one and the same.)

One last thought: Pretending to like someone you don't particularly like isn't really a big deal. Pretending to love someone you don't love is something I just can't do--just the thought of it makes me queasy.

mr_punk
10-10-2005, 09:24 AM
Some girls are more comfortable stretching their physical boundaries; others are more comfortable stretching their emotional boundaries.sure.

But that said, I can't deny that there really were some customers who behaved very well in SC--they weren't PLs/RILs who pushed emotional boundaries, and they weren't raincoaters who pushed physical boundaries.actually, i didn't have a specific type in mind when i wrote that statement because one doesn't necessarily imply the other. in fact, it may not apply at all. for example, any customer could go around trying to forcefully feed or finger strippers, but that doesn't necessarily imply that he's a raincoater. conversely, a customer could go around buying a stripper gifts, constantly asking to see her OTC. however, it doesn't necessarily imply that he's RIL.

things aren't always that simple as they appear to be on the surface. what if the type i was talking about doesn't restrict himself to one stripper like an RIL. what if it's not so much about him being in love with the stripper, but about the challenge of getting past her emotional barriers. while an RIL might be genuinely interested in a relationship, friendship, etc for completely altruistic reasons. the kind of customer i'm taking about is not. it just appears that way.

They paid for what we offered and respected the boundaries we set, had a good time ITC and went home happy at the end of the night. Sorry, punk, but dancers really do appreciate those guys....LOL...any type of customer is capable of doing that, Nic. keep in mind, you can't push a boundary that doesn't exist. if a stripper gives a customer a BJ or meets him OTC. does that imply that he somehow pushed her boundaries? like you said, some girls are more comfortable stretching their boundaries in ways that you may not.

I mean I find that pretending to like someone is a drag, and, honestly, I find it unethical to (directly) lead a customer to believe that he is buying something he is not buying (i.e. the opportunity to either directly or eventually sleep with me, or date me or get married and have children).well, creating a false sense of imtimacy is how most strippers make their money. in fact, it's the most common method to hustle customers. don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing the act. like i said, most sc customers do want to walk out of the whorehouse feeling loved. however, for those customers who don't need it. it's a distraction much like a magician's trick...a very bad magician. which is why i tell those customers not to listen to the stripper's words, but to look at her actions.

All I know is that when I flirted briefly with the possibility of having a regular that I saw OTC--you know, one of those well-meaning, but socially inept and slightly creepy guys who offer to take you shopping/take you out on the town thinking that it will lead to true loveoh, jenny knows exactly the type you're talking about...LOL.

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 09:50 AM
Another thought: I think some of the girls who can handle this type of thing are just highly social extroverts. For them, it's no big deal to let people into their personal lives; they do it all the time. For me, it's a big deal, because only people I really care about are involved in my personal life.

Let me also add that I've never been in a relationship like this myself (like I said, I rejected the possibility when it arose), but I've watched other women deal with it, including a few close friends.

And I've argued this same issue with smart dancers more than once....

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 10:11 AM
Ya know, I'm not going to pronounce that if I don't offer it, someone else will, because I understand the fallacies in that, but I will observe this. I don't think I'm protecting him by not being the provider.
Oh, sorry, I didn't read that carefully enough.




I think you just shot the engine out of the entire industry business model. By that line of reasoning, I also shouldn't be interacting in a sexual way with any customer because it's not motivated by true sexual interest, therefore dishonest. I'd never lap him if money were removed from the equation. My sexually stimulating interactions ITC might be hurtful because how do I know whether he has a healthy or unhealthy attitude about it? I haven't conducted a psychological profile on him. How do I know whether or not his wife or girlfriend know about his visits and may consider it cheating? Ad infinitum.

I think most guys, no matter how emotionally unstable, are aware that strippers get paid to interact in a sexual way with guys ITC.

Most are equally aware that most dancers are reluctant see customers OTC, and they are likely to draw the conclusion that if you are willing to see them OTC--i.e., outside the special ethical arena, and outside of your role as a stripper--that implies a different sort of relationship than if you keep your interaction strictly ITC.

That's why I concentrated specifically on OTC interactions that go beyond simple pay-to-play.

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 10:17 AM
LOL...any type of customer is capable of doing that, Nic. keep in mind, you can't push a boundary that doesn't exist. if a stripper gives a customer a BJ or meets him OTC. does that imply that he somehow pushed her boundaries? like you said, some girls are more comfortable stretching their boundaries in ways that you may not.

I know, I know. You find the girls who are just dying to suck your dick, pay them for the service, and go home happy. I get it. Frankly, I don't have a problem with it. It's an honest interaction.



well, creating a false sense of imtimacy is how most strippers make their money. .... like i said, most sc customers do want to walk out of the whorehouse feeling loved. however, for those customers who don't need it. it's a distraction much like a magician's trick...a very bad magician. which is why i tell those customers not to listen to the stripper's words, but to look at her actions.


I dunno mr. p. I was pretty damn good at creating a false sense of intimacy without saying a word. :)

mr_punk
10-10-2005, 02:05 PM
I was specifically speaking about OTC relationships--and not just an occasional dinner date with possible play-for-pay. I was talking about guys who desperately want to gain access to "the real you," and become involved with your real life.

I'm betting you can tell the difference between someone who's really emotionally vulnerable and obsessive and slightly delusional and someone who is more casually interested in you for companionship and/or sex.oh, you must be talking about a customer kinda like this guy: http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43592

The former just freaks me out--you're right, it's a personal thing. It doesn't work for me--dealing with it feels like a sacrifice that I'm not willing to make, no matter how much money is involved. If it works for you, if it doesn't feel like a sacrifice, if you're okay with it, then go for it....As you say, if you don't, someone else will. It just won't be me.true..there are strippers would be more than willing to milk this type of guy for all he's worth.

One last thought: Pretending to like someone you don't particularly like isn't really a big deal. Pretending to love someone you don't love is something I just can't do--just the thought of it makes me queasy.so, i guess this means you didn't DFK while you were dancing..i kid..i kid. seriously, you are correct. there are strippers out there who have no problem doing such a thing.

Another thought: I think some of the girls who can handle this type of thing are just highly social extroverts. For them, it's no big deal to let people into their personal lives; they do it all the time. For me, it's a big deal, because only people I really care about are involved in my personal life.i don't know about that, Nic. isn't that akin to calling a stripper who can handle giving BBBJ a nymphomaniac?

I think most guys, no matter how emotionally unstable, are aware that strippers get paid to interact in a sexual way with guys ITC.i wouldn't be so sure about that, Nic. have you read CC? it's been a real hoot lately....LOL

Moneywise
10-10-2005, 05:01 PM
have you read CC? it's been a real hoot lately....LOL

I'll have to check out that forum. I could use a few laughs to keep me grounded. Perhaps a reminder of what once was back before I slipped into the darkness. ;)

Moneywise
10-10-2005, 05:03 PM
OMG LOL NICE (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55898)

FBR
10-10-2005, 05:34 PM
I'll have to check out that forum. I could use a few laughs to keep me grounded. Perhaps a reminder of what once was back before I slipped into the darkness. ;)

CC is a different world...hell, a different universe than here. Shouldnt be a surprise to any blueballer ;)

FBR

mr_punk
10-10-2005, 06:05 PM
OMG LOL NICEyeah,those guys are hilarious, albeit unintentionally.

FBR
10-10-2005, 06:08 PM
I think most guys, no matter how emotionally unstable, are aware that strippers get paid to interact in a sexual way with guys ITC.

Other posters opinions to the contrary, I believe you are correct. There is this one guy who is a regular at my club and is the talk of the town, so to speak. He wears the same shorts every visit (slippery shorts that resemble bicycle riders shorts but not quite as tight) with no underwear, or so I hear. He brags about his attire to the dancers (calls them his club shorts ;) ) The dancers bitch and dis him as a pervert and yet the carpet is about worn out from his trips to the LD area with willing dancers. Go figure LOL;)


Most are equally aware that most dancers are reluctant see customers OTC, and they are likely to draw the conclusion that if you are willing to see them OTC--i.e., outside the special ethical arena, and outside of your role as a stripper--that implies a different sort of relationship than if you keep your interaction strictly ITC.

Some guys are content with an LD relationship within the club. More power to them. Other guys like to move things up a notch or two. As long as the parties are willing, its all good.


That's why I concentrated specifically on OTC interactions that go beyond simple pay-to-play.

At the end of the day, its still pay-to-play. But to the extent that I can enjoy a bit of her real personna, Im pretty happy. That doesnt make me a PL, just human. Ive done the BJ/HJ club thing and found it pretty unsatisfactory after a while.

FBR

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 08:53 PM
Some guys are content with an LD relationship within the club. More power to them. Other guys like to move things up a notch or two. As long as the parties are willing, its all good.



At the end of the day, its still pay-to-play. But to the extent that I can enjoy a bit of her real personna, Im pretty happy. That doesnt make me a PL, just human. Ive done the BJ/HJ club thing and found it pretty unsatisfactory after a while.

FBR



FBR, let me just say that, even if you're a little bit in love with Miss D, I don't think you fall into the category of customer I'm speaking of. You seem to be able to keep things in perspective. You accept the relationship on her terms, and I don't think you want her to be your best friend. You like the companionship and the sexual interaction, but you seem to respect her emotional (and physical) boundaries. She seems, in turn, to have a genuine affection for you. I think you understand that you can buy her time, but you're not waiting around for her to start to love you; I don't think you're trying to buy her friendship or her affection. This is probably about as healthy as this kind of OTC relationship can be. As you say...it's all good. :) So try not to feel implicated! ;)

Nicolina
10-10-2005, 09:30 PM
oh, you must be talking about a customer kinda like this guy: http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43592

Nah... actually I was thinking more of a guy like laplover69 in that "Dancer Guilt" thread. Sad. No wonder he doesn't post over here; you guys would demolish him!

The guy in that Bianca thread was just plain scary. And that's another reason I stayed away from the obsessive love guys. They scared the bejeezus outta me.


so, i guess this means you didn't DFK while you were dancing..i kid..i kid.

Actually, you're quite right. I didn't DFK when I was turning tricks, either. I'll say it again: I'm an old-fashioned whore who thinks that kissing is too fucking intimate to do with a paying player. Save it for your fucking SO. (Sorry. It's a pet peeve of mine lately.)


i don't know about that, Nic. isn't that akin to calling a stripper who can handle giving BBBJ a nymphomaniac?

Hmmm...I don't think so. But you know, I'd describe myself as "highly sexual." I've had an unusually keen interest in sex since before I even hit puberty. Some 'mental health professionals' might even describe me as 'hypersexual.' So maybe there is some correlation between the fact that I'm 'highly sexual' and the fact that I was able to handle the occasional OTC sex-for-cash deal.

This would be parallel to the notion that someone who's "highly social" might be able to better handle social/emotional interaction in exchange for cash.

In either case, you're "going pro" in a realm in which you feel particularly confident, capable, and comfortable.

Neither conjecture seems particularly far-fetched to me....