View Full Version : Racist 13 yr. old twins
cinammonkisses
10-25-2005, 07:58 AM
Off-topic, but why the opposition to homeschooling?
I oppose homeschooling (on some levels) because the children are not apart of society. They are not around their peers, just indoors for hours upon hours per day. Young children need to be around their peers. To learn about diversity, tolerance, and develop social skills.
How do you think an adult feels when they look back on the last 14yrs of his/her life? They didn't have a life. They have no (in school) childhood memories that we all have. For ex. Having a crush on the boy/girl sitting next to you, going to a school dance, shoot how about PROM?!!!
You need to have real life experiences. I feel like for some parents to keep their kids in homeschool environments, they are treating them like they are the BOY IN THE BUBBLE. You have to let your child grow...
threlayer
10-25-2005, 08:08 AM
I oppose homeschooling (on some levels) because the children are not apart of society. They are not around their peers, just indoors for hours upon hours per day. Young children need to be around their peers. To learn about diversity, tolerance, and develop social skills.
Specifically ignorance of different types of people and lifestyles fosters the ignorance that seems to cause racial hatred. Further, that degree of isolation can inhibit being prepared for real life in many other ways. In the same way that not being exposed to some infections doesn't prepare the immune system.
But I can see both sides of home-scholling in general. When and where I went to public school, things were socially better than they are now in schools. And the schooling was better too.
I wonder if there is the concept of a homeschooling network? One teacher cannot teach everything you need to know from elementary thru high school levels. Teaching is not a simple activity that anyone passing thru high school can do successfully. Some public school systems allow some low level of participation (excluding most extracurriculars), but this would seem to bypass the isolation parents seem to want.
Rhiannon
10-25-2005, 08:19 AM
^There are homeschooling groups in almost every area. They go on field trips, and some even combine all the kids and teach them that way. They are most definitely socialized and not sheltered and kept away from society. Sure, there may be some parents who strictly homeschool at home. But there are far more that choose to teach in groups and have very social group activities.
Things are a hell of a lot different than they were when I went to school. I saw the change when my Son was even in KINDERGARTEN. The bus situation got so bad that I came home from working 3rd shift every morning, got the kids ready, and drove my Son to school. Then, I picked him up. He was pushed, and even had death threats made against him. Death threats against a FIVE year old.
There's a difference between treating them like they're the "Boy in the Bubble" and protecting them. It's latter is your job as a parent. They only get one childhood and it's the parents' job to make it count.
Who says that Homeschoolers can't have a prom? Or crushes? If they are in a social homeschool setting, they most certainly can, and do.
FL Dancer
10-25-2005, 10:52 AM
Off-topic, but why the opposition to homeschooling?
I think the home school stigma comes from the fact that the most often those who we see or read about that home school their kids do so to indoctrinate kids with various propaganda such as we see with these "Prussian Blue" girls for example.
I think if those who don't have that intent, like Rhiannon for example , were more vocal the stereotype would change alot .
My personal objection to home schooling is more along the lines of are how many parents qualified to be teaching subjects like chemistry or advanced math, science or foreign language courses.
I don't see a problem with grade school level home schooling ( if kids are also put into social situations ) but I question middle and high school level home schooling.
FL Dancer
10-25-2005, 10:58 AM
Both of you are making excuses for racist propaganda in the form of music. Gangsta rap (the "kill/blame/f*ck whitey" brand) is no more appropriate than Prussian Blue's bullshit and no amount of history lessons or "they did it fir-irst" will change that.
THANKYOU !!!!!!!!!!!!
Mastridonicus
10-25-2005, 11:06 AM
Its one thing to be proud of your heritage. I'm proud of being Italian, and I am proud to see CinnamonKisses Smile, but the line of racism is drawn when you look at someone and feel that they should hate themselves for their heritage. Its no different than the catholics telling gays their only entrance into heaven is to not have sex.
Fortunatly, america is about equality, I had a Muslim fellow employee who's mom was to ill to celebrate Ramadahn <sp?> so I celebrated it with him. I made it too. He isn't evil because he's muslim, he just plain isn't evil. One of the most integrity driven people I have ever met.
We'll never leave Hate. and all its forms. Its not going to happen, its a Ying Yang of life, all we can do is enforce laws that stipulate that once this passes freedom of speech that the nation does the right thing to protect the potential victims.
Are we no better than to cast hatred on these girls for spewing their message of hate to people with similar beliefs? Call me crazy, but giving it a name of Racism just catagorizes hate. We, as a people, have a right to not enable these youths by not buying their albums, boycott them...etc... sure, its not much, but its what we can do.
Do I think what these girls are doing is right? Nope. I feel sorry for them for missing out on all the cultural differences that are so incredibly interesting and learning why Budhism is so important to a Buddist, etc. However, until they break a right, I feel that its my business to change the channel or not buy the album, but not cast hate on them for what they are doing.
Don't get me wrong, I think this thread is a great outlet for opinions on this issue, and this is a most appropriate way of handling it <ALL I AM SAYING is that I AM NOT SAYING that posters are wrong for being upset with this topic> however, if a Racist hates you for being who you are, and you hate them for being racist, who truly is better. Is one better? I really don't know. I wont waste my hate on you.
BLAH BLAH BLAH I hate being serious all the time.
Melonie
10-25-2005, 11:34 AM
I think the home school stigma comes from the fact that the most often those who we see or read about that home school their kids do so to indoctrinate kids with various propaganda such as we see with these "Prussian Blue" girls for example
... as opposed to public school kids being indoctrinated with NEA and state ed dep't 'officially sanctioned' propaganda ?
We'll never leave Hate. and all its forms. Its not going to happen, its a Ying Yang of life, all we can do is enforce laws that stipulate that once this passes freedom of speech that the nation does the right thing to protect the potential victims.
I'll accept this premise ... if only the potential victims of all races were equally protected.
FL Dancer
10-25-2005, 12:15 PM
... as opposed to public school kids being indoctrinated with NEA and state ed dep't 'officially sanctioned' propaganda ? .
NEA, as in National Endowment for the Arts :
The National Endowment for the Arts is a public agency dedicated to supporting excellence in the arts, both new and established; bringing the arts to all Americans; and providing leadership in arts education.
What is wrong with giving kids education in the arts ? I fail to see how teaching kids about Mozart, Degas or Charlie Parker is teaching propaganda.
Music involves ratios, fractions, proportions which help kids in thier math studies. Studies have also shown that kids who learn music, regardless of socioeconomic background, get higher marks in standardized tests such as the SAT.
Drama classes have been shown to improve kids verbal and memory skills.
Dance has many of the same benefits as learning music and keeps kids more active physically. Considering the obesity rates in children in this country, well I don't see the problem with exposing kids to it as an alternative to sports.
How is encouraging kids to play the piano or express themselves through painting, creative writing, dance or drama indoctrinating them with propganda?
And if so what is the message of said propganda and why is it a bad thing to expose children to ?
... if only the potential victims of all races were equally protected.
Which race or races are you refering to ? Who do you feel is not being equally protected ?
vegasbebe
10-25-2005, 12:52 PM
On a funny note, do you see the way that one little girl is hanging from that swing set pole? Future stripper, future stripper! LOL
I can't believe that shit like this still goes on in America. Those kids aren't to blame, obviously. They're bizzare fucked up family is!!
I mean, the kids don't even know what they are talking about. "we want to keep staying white.." Like, as if they're gonna wake up one day and be another race if they don't continue to hail hitler? What the fuck?
I recently had a VERY scary experience with racism. I was going to work on a friday night, and I took a cab... OKAY! So, my roommate is a black guy. I'm white. My roomie walked me out to the cab and gave me a hug. Well, my fucking psycho cab driver who is obviously in the KKK told me he knew, this is SO sick so don't read on if you don't want to hear something horrible, a group of men that would burn kkk in the forehead of of white girls who dated black guys with acid. I seriously was clutching my pepper spray, thinking this guy was going to abduct and kill me or some crazy shit like that!! I had him drop me off at a casino, not the club I work at, and took another cab from there. I also got his cab number and called tai cab authority.
This is a sick and sad world, I don't understand having that kind of hate for people.
janx34
10-25-2005, 12:54 PM
Aaaahhhhhhh yes ::) Wonderful Bakersfield CA. many stories.......
My boss saw someone get shot to death when he stopped for gas in Bakersfield on his way through to San Diego!
A guy who was driving crosscountry pulled over and took a nap in his car in Bakersfield. Some dude walked up to his car shot him in the head and walked away. Didn't know him....didn't steal anything....just shot him...
Most missing person posters I've seen in Cali are of people who were from Bakersfield.
It's a really diverse and interesting place. I don't recommend anyone ever set foot in that town for their own safety.
Like MadMaxine said "It's Bakersfield! If you grew up there, you'd be crazy too"
skanklover
10-25-2005, 12:59 PM
I think melonie is refering to whites and our mistreatment by the liberal media over the past four decades. (Typical conservative crapola I think...Melonie must be from Texas?)
I agree with Mastridonus...Hate is hate regardless of color or national origin. The bottom line is that when you believe that someone does not deserve to live because of what they are rather than who they are that is a problem. These girls are being taught to hate others who are not what they are...that goes beyond being taught to be proud of who you are.
Melonie
10-25-2005, 01:33 PM
NEA, as in National Endowment for the Arts :
I assume that you're breaking my ... chops ! ---> will take you to the National Educational Association, which wields a great deal of clout in regard to selecting 'acceptable' textbooks and curricula for use in public schools throughout the country.
Originally Posted by Melonie
... if only the potential victims of all races were equally protected.
Which race or races are you refering to ? Who do you feel is not being equally protected ?
well, lets see ...
or
(broadcast nationwide by C-SPAN at taxpayer's expense, technically making the US gov't agency an accomplice in the crime of disseminating hate speech)
or my personal favorite
~
FL Dancer
10-25-2005, 01:44 PM
I assume that you're breaking my ... chops ! ---> will take you to the National Educational Association, which wields a great deal of clout in regard to selecting 'acceptable' textbooks and curricula for use in public schools throughout the country.]
nah, I thought you were refering to National Endowemnet for the Arts and was thinking , wtf ?
well, lets see ...
or
(broadcast nationwide by C-SPAN at taxpayer's expense) or maybe
I'll have to read those before responding. I'll get back to you tomorrow if I feel I have anything further to add on that subject.
scarlett_vancouver
10-25-2005, 01:59 PM
I oppose homeschooling (on some levels) because the children are not apart of society. They are not around their peers, just indoors for hours upon hours per day. Young children need to be around their peers. To learn about diversity, tolerance, and develop social skills.
How do you think an adult feels when they look back on the last 14yrs of his/her life? They didn't have a life. They have no (in school) childhood memories that we all have. For ex. Having a crush on the boy/girl sitting next to you, going to a school dance, shoot how about PROM?!!!
You need to have real life experiences. I feel like for some parents to keep their kids in homeschool environments, they are treating them like they are the BOY IN THE BUBBLE. You have to let your child grow...
Home schooled kids are not necessarily kept in a bubble, so to speak. There's more to a kid's social life than school- afterschool lessons and teams offer a social environment that is generally more positive than school. Also, kids waste less time in homeschooling. Learn what needs to be learned, then go play! No need to spend 7 hours a day in school.
Deogol
10-25-2005, 02:31 PM
....here ya go. I found a few links.
Blog away and let them know how you feel:
See the video:
They kinda suck don't they? With all the hoopla I was expecting a little more.
Melonie
10-25-2005, 02:38 PM
yeah they do kinda suck, but that's beside the point ... half the 'hot' recording artists kinda suck as far as my ears are concerned. The real issue is as follows :
(snip)"Imagine a white country-western singer performing lyrics that call on whites to torture and kill blacks, and imagine him rising to fame with backing from major record labels. The image is not believable. If a white singer tried to build a career today by spewing out violently racist lyrics, the outcry would be immediate and overwhelming, with denunciations, pickets, and perhaps even violence at music stores. The double standards of the entertainment industry are such, however, that viciously racist lyrics do become popular when the artist is black."(snip)
janx34
10-25-2005, 02:51 PM
Home schooled kids are not necessarily kept in a bubble, so to speak. There's more to a kid's social life than school- afterschool lessons and teams offer a social environment that is generally more positive than school. Also, kids waste less time in homeschooling. Learn what needs to be learned, then go play! No need to spend 7 hours a day in school.
I don't oppose homeschooling but DAMN it sucks for the kids when it's done wrong and you are sheltered and miss out on all the social events of regular school. It sucks when you're a 22 yr old just figuring out simple things that people learned in grade school. You feel held back. To far behind and not worth trying to catch up. When you can't talk to people because you never had any experiences that they had that you can relate to. You never had this class or that class or read that book ...........
I know this personally
PhaedrusZ
10-25-2005, 04:46 PM
This is regarding schools again, but these two links have some interesting information as to how our U.S. public school system is built on a model imported from, of all places, Prussia! And from about 200 years ago at that!
This link provides a good overview.
http://nj.npri.org/nj98/05/prussian.htm
Much more extensive is this link, of seven pages, but very readable, complete with footnotes. The last page (page 7) even mentions a symbol which would morph into the modern-day swastika! So our current system of public education in the U.S., has its own problems even now, deriving from the history of the Prussian model of its origins. Btw, I found these by placing "U.S. schools Prussian model" in Google, and had 557,000 hits! IMHO, considering how this thread has progressed, more than just a little bit ironic!
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/7a.htm
Amethyst
10-25-2005, 06:13 PM
well, lets see ...
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Seattle_Schools.html
or
http://www.wral.com/news/5156689/detail.html (broadcast nationwide by C-SPAN at taxpayer's expense, technically making the US gov't agency an accomplice in the crime of disseminating hate speech)
or my personal favorite
http://www.adversity.net/fed_stats/OPM2005/001_blacksFY2004.htm
~
Link 1: So how should they decide? At the private school I worked at, whenever we had more qualified applicants than seats, we went with legacies/siblings first. This automatically put the Black, Hispanic, and Asian applicants at a disadvantage because 95% of the students were White. We also had a huge push from teachers, admin, parents, students, and most importantly,DONORS who wanted us to have more "qualified culluds" in our admission pool for social and educational benefits. So you take five extremely-well qualified students of different ethnicities, none of which have siblings. Who do you choose?
Link 2: Then ABC is an accomplice to the White Power Movement because they let those freaks come on and spout their hatred. And Faux..I mean Fox...is also an accomplice for letting Whore-o-witz break bread with O'Reilly at least six times.
Link 3: First, I love the concentration on evil Blacks. Just as sure as the sun will rise... anyway, I'm still looking over the charts from the actual OPM website - not "adversity.net" - but is it really that hard to believe these people were qualified for those positions over other applicants? Just asking. BTW, it looks like Asians were number two in being "overrepresented". And I'm still searching OPM to figure out where they have their list of racial quotas as last I heard, they are illegal. I see some things on Affirmative Action - but towards people with disabilities, not race.
Mr Hyde
10-25-2005, 06:36 PM
I'll say it...homeschooling sucks. Unlesss the parent has been trained in teaching, they are shortchanging their child. Further, a parent does not have the resources that a school has in terms of music, art, physical education, technology, library/media, sports, etc. Also, the older a child gets, the worse it is. In HS, teachers specialize in subject areas that no parent can possibly all have mastery of.
Jenny
10-25-2005, 07:02 PM
I don't know - I think it is a very nice idea. And I have to say - teachers, although skilled, aren't necessarily rocket scientists. I mean, I went to college. I went college with teachers. I got better grades than teachers. The degree doesn't have that much cachet to me, and I actually have doubts about validity of school. And no, parents don't hae a music room or gym (art supplies, I'm pretty sure they do) but the kid can get violin lessons and join a soccer league or take dance lessons or swimming lessons - home schooling doesn't mean you want to keep your child prisoner 24 hours a day.
Homeschooled children (those that take SAT's, and that is likely a lower proportion than non-homeschooled children) don't do worse on standardized tests (for what that is worth) than high schooled children, and they don't do worse in college - so I'm not sure how short changed they are.
Casual Observer
10-25-2005, 07:16 PM
I'll say it...homeschooling sucks. Unlesss the parent has been trained in teaching, they are shortchanging their child. Further, a parent does not have the resources that a school has in terms of music, art, physical education, technology, library/media, sports, etc. Also, the older a child gets, the worse it is. In HS, teachers specialize in subject areas that no parent can possibly all have mastery of.
Bollocks.
I will say without hesitation that some of the most capable and gifted people I've met in my time in higher education were homeschooled. All the ostensible reservations and villifications about homeschooling exist only in a vacuum, as if the community of homeschoolers in the US have no resources, connections, or avenues available to them, and as if the NEA and ATF are somehow uniquely and singularly qualified with regard to education. Considering what passes for public education in most of the country--LCD education--there can be no question that the 'professionals' of public education are whistling through the graveyard.
It's this kind of quasi-intellectual elitism that is drawing increasing numbers of parents to the homeschool/private school option in the first place.
Madcap
10-25-2005, 09:57 PM
My main problem with homeschooling is that a great deal of the parents can hardly read, themselves, much less teach someone else how to. Not to mention the filk who homeschool their kids for some goofy religious reason ("*GASP!* Public schools teach about the law of gravity! There IS no law of gravity! IT'S A VAST LEFT WING CONSPIRACY TO DENY THE POWER OF GOD!!!! I must now teach my child only 4-5000 year old fables as truth, as if the last few millenia just didn't exist...)
Melonie
10-25-2005, 10:37 PM
reply to Amethyst ...
We also had a huge push from teachers, admin, parents, students, and most importantly,DONORS who wanted us to have more "qualified culluds" in our admission pool for social and educational benefits. So you take five extremely-well qualified students of different ethnicities, none of which have siblings. Who do you choose?
Well, as proven by your own anecdote, the gov't provides a financial incentive and media provides a social incentive to choose 'qualified culluds' - which ultimately boils down to gov't sponsored racism favoring black students over white students.
Then ABC is an accomplice to the White Power Movement because they let those freaks come on and spout their hatred
Fact check ... ABC's parent is actively promoting (and profiting from) 'gangsta rap' recordings by black artists a la Ice Cube (with absolutely no attention paid to the racist anti-white hate content of the lyrics BTW), while Prussian Blue is only backed by a tiny 'independent' recording label. ABC itself seeks 'gangsta rap' artists as guest stars for its regular programming, but publishes 'Prussian Blue' and 'Racist' in the same news headline. IMHO ABC's publishing of a 'Racist' news story regarding Prussian Blue certainly doesn't constitute active promotion, and arguably constitutes NEGATIVE promotion. There's no denying the clear existance of a double standard on the part of ABC and it's parent concering the racist hate lyrics of one 'color' versus the racist hate lyrics of a different 'color' . And for the record, ABC did not allow the Prussian Blue girls to make any direct statements for the news story, thus no 'spouting' was allowed.
but is it really that hard to believe these people were qualified for those positions over other applicants? Just asking. BTW, it looks like Asians were number two in being "overrepresented". And I'm still searching OPM to figure out where they have their list of racial quotas as last I heard, they are illegal
Illegal or not, the reality of the situation is that mere coincidence can't explain the incredibly disproportionate hiring practices of gov't agencies favoring black new hires over equally qualified white applicants, which again smacks of gov't sponsored racism.
Again, I'm not making a value judgement that any of these occurrences/situations are morally right or wrong. I'm only pointing out that they do exist, and the apparent driving force seems to be gov't or corporate sponsored racial favoritism of black over white. The logical position of course is that ALL forms of racism are supposedly wrong, and that rights to free speech are guaranteed by the US constitution. But the real world position appears to be that gov't / corporate sponsored racial favoritism towards black people is OK, and that hate based anti-white racial comments/lyrics by black public figures/artists are OK, but that any public comments/lyrics by a white person which are negative towards black people in any way automatically equate to the reincarnation of Hitler.
~
Amethyst
10-26-2005, 08:15 AM
reply to Melonie
Well, as proven by your own anecdote, the gov't provides a financial incentive and media provides a social incentive to choose 'qualified culluds' - which ultimately boils down to gov't sponsored racism favoring black students over white students.
No, read again. PRIVATE school = PRIVATE money. Govt. had nothing to do with it. Contrary to what you may think, White people - both conservative and liberal - pushed for more diversity because of the benefits - meaning socialization benefits and creation of an inclusive environment - the student body would receive WITHOUT being pushed by the government. Some people like to do the right thing. These people recognized that the school had had a history of excluding people of color - whether through financial means or ethnic discrimination - and therefore, saw a change needed to happen. Some very prominent, wealthy people in SAT that were members of the board or otherwise donors helped make this happen.
SAT has made some progress, but still, the majority of the property in the best neighborhoods is owned by White people. This gives their children access to the best public schools AND access to the connections and recruiting from the best private schools. Upon recognizing this, the admission team (my team) was pushed to hit ALL districts harder - including rich minority, poor minority, and poorer White students. Most of these students had never even heard of the school and those that did thought you had to be rich AND/OR have connections in order to attend. Of course, that had been the case previously, but we were able to put a dent in that.
Should be easy to connect the dots from there.
BTW, I want you to take notice of how you stated "Black over White" WHEN I SPECIFICALLY STATED BLACK, HISPANIC, AND ASIAN STUDENTS. Again, as sure as the sun will set, you will turn Black people into some kind of threat. Why is that? Racist-based propaganda?
FYI, at the time of my departure, the school was still at least 90% White, only there was an increased number of poorer Whites and those who lived in not-so-rich districts. Hispanics are next (a good portion of which are Mexican Nationals) with Asians, Blacks, and Middle Eastern students following. There were about 8 Black students of 900, two of whom came from an interracial family.
...ABC's parent is actively promoting (and profiting from) 'gangsta rap' recordings by black artists a la Ice Cube (with absolutely no attention paid to the racist anti-white hate content of the lyrics BTW), while Prussian Blue is only backed by a tiny 'independent' recording label. ABC itself seeks 'gangsta rap' artists as guest stars for its regular programming, but publishes 'Prussian Blue' and 'Racist' in the same news headline. IMHO ABC's publishing of a 'Racist' news story regarding Prussian Blue certainly doesn't constitute active promotion, and arguably constitutes NEGATIVE promotion...
No idea where you are getting your info, so please do share when ABC started with the Ice Cube promotion. It is my understanding that Ice Cube left that anti-white crap a few years ago and actually spoke out against it. Not trying to excuse him for anything, but did ABC promote him before or after? Also, what other Gangsta rappers have been on ABC? Remember, gangsta rap does not equal anti-white. If you're talking about NWA or Ice-T of the previous decade, okay. If you're talking about Snoop Dogg or Jay Z - please.
Disclaimer - I don't have the time nor inclination to listen to gangsta rap.
Also, by putting Prussian Blue on the airwaves and allowing even their handlers to speak, they are promoting the group. ANY publicity is good publicity and you know that. Check the blogosphere to see how much popularity they've gained since the show. So, if C-Span is guilty of promoting simply for having someone on as you said about Prof. Hitler v.3, then they're guilty of the same for Prussian Blue.
Again, I'm not making a value judgement that any of these occurrences/situations are morally right or wrong. I'm only pointing out that they do exist, and the apparent driving force seems to be gov't or corporate sponsored racial favoritism of black over white.
Melonie, if you can, try to NOT concentrate on Black people as the public enemy #1 for a second and look at the big picture. Think about the history of this country. Then connect the federal and state laws of past to the social constructs of today. It's only been 40 years since Jim Crow. People of all ethnicities are still feeling the effects of it. I think money is fast becoming the strongest factor in discrimination, but the fact that Black and Hispanic people still have very little property and very little money due to past constructions keeps ethnicity tied in as well.
And no, the world does not support anti-White racism from Black people or any other ethnic group. Most people are appalled, and yes, unfortunately, some laugh it off and don't take him seriously - didn't people originally laugh Hitler off as well - and yeah, you have some folks who support him. But I don't see ONE prominent media outlet that actually supports him.
cinammonkisses
10-26-2005, 09:41 AM
^^^^^ Tell it Girl!
Melonie
10-26-2005, 10:08 AM
please keep in mind that the original question was as follows ....
Originally Posted by Melonie
... if only the potential victims of all races were equally protected.
Which race or races are you refering to ? Who do you feel is not being equally protected ?
in regard to the expression/promotion of grammy winning rappers who are arguably espousing hate lyrics against whites with impunity ---> . Obviously all of the recording companies listed at that link are promoting and profiting from those artists/recordings - with Prussian Blue and other white artists clearly not receiving the same promotion even though their message is essentially similar from a hate speech standpoint.
in regard to the disproportional hiring of blacks (and to a lesser degree the disproportional hiring of asians and other non-white minorities) for gov't jobs, yes there is certainly a large group of Americans that feel such measures are justified as 'payback' for past wrongdoing. However, the law says that racial discrimination is illegal, and these gov't hiring practices are clearly continuing de-facto discrimination in regard to the race of qualified applicants. Thus, arguably, qualified white applicants are not receiving equal consideration.
in regard to the original link about discrimination in education, for a fact race is being used as a deciding factor in Seattle. Race is also used as a deciding factor in college admission decisions --> ... based on a controversial 5-4 Supreme Court decision which conveniently skirted the Equal Protection under the Law question.
Again, from a personal standpoint, I'm not condemning or condoning any of these things - I'm merely pointing out that they do exist.
threlayer
10-26-2005, 10:15 AM
Better being "indoctrinated by the NEA" than being indoctrinated by poisoned parents.
Jenny
10-26-2005, 11:13 AM
I must say I haven't noticed a distinct lack of white, hetero men in corporate environments (and yes, I have even worked in them) or government jobs (particularly higher level ones) or schools (although there are equal numbers of white women). Until you show me something that seriously demonstrates that a significant number of CEO's and VP's in either country are otherwise, I have difficulty believing that the scary people of colour are really exercising this stranglehold. Our Charter very specifically says that the section set out to ensure equal treatment cannot be used against programs designed to equalize disadvantaged groups.
In regards to the music - don't take this as a huge endorsement of any kind of violent music (I'm a rock fan of the Tragically Hip/Death Cab/Weakerthans oeuvre myself) but there is no point in pretending that these things are created in cultural vacuum. You may still believe it is a problem - and I do - but it is silly and simplistic to equate the two (sort of like saying that a topless man and a topless woman are equally naked. Cultural currency very obviously and on the face dictates difference)
Casual Observer
10-26-2005, 02:53 PM
Ok so I looked at the links Melonie provided to support her position that white people do not get equal protections in the US and I have to say I did not find them to be very conviencing .
I just cannot agree with her suggestion that white people are generally denied equal protections in this country or that white people are systematically or regularly discriminated against because of their race.
Of course not, TL, because you only believe in selective application of the 14th Amendment.
Nothing new to see here, move along...
doc-catfish
10-26-2005, 03:19 PM
Better being "indoctrinated by the NEA" than being indoctrinated by poisoned parents.
I disagree. Indoctrination sucks regardless of whose doing it, but at least when parents do it to their own kids, the tax dollars of other parents who may not agree with said indoctrination aren't involved.
LilSweetVixen
10-26-2005, 05:29 PM
I'm all for homeschooling if I have the time. I don't think they learn anything in school and yes I'm one of those conspiracy theorists that thinks it's all about the industrial-military complex and glorified machinary. Non-Christians are misled about the under God phrase in the pledge because they aren't listening, or else the word Republic would sink in and wouldn't so easily replaced with the word Democracy. Christians are misled about the evolution thing because they don't learn evolution in the first place. They will never read Origin of Species or learn what natural selection is. They just learn obscure latin phrases. I don't see why my kids won't have social skills, it's not like they won't be in any activities. They can do sports, arts, volunteer, and work. They'll probably have better social skills from having been homeschooled, because they wouldn't have been filtered into a racial segregated in some cases hegemonic, socially feudalistic, sexual mixed-message, heteronormative environment, where silence and complacency is rewarded.
threlayer
10-26-2005, 06:36 PM
I disagree. Indoctrination sucks regardless of whose doing it, but at least when parents do it to their own kids, the tax dollars of other parents who may not agree with said indoctrination aren't involved.
Then we have to deal with their 'poisoned' progeny for a few more generations. At least the NEA doesn't support genocide, thought they probably grind 'politically correct' and etiquette into the ground.
aussiepunkshocker
10-26-2005, 11:02 PM
I can't help but think that one day these girls may look back and be just a touch embaressed about all this. I feel that being sheltered from the real world is never good, but to get all this attention, well maybe in the long run that's a good thing. I think it just highlights what a shallow and narrowminded upbringing these girls have had and I hope that if anything comes out of the publicity that it's to have to have a real good think about what they've been taught at some stage and question it because obviously alot of other people are! Besides being taught hatered is not something that's going to get you by in life, it's a practically usless tool and it's not even fun - onya Mum, lol!
TarynJolie
10-28-2005, 07:20 PM
People interested in this topic may want to check out this coming Tues. episode of Law and Order: SVU.
Melonie
10-30-2005, 05:43 PM
I'm having difficulty finding a synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode you are you referring to. Does it have anything to do with the following statistics ?
"Major Findings:
• Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities.
Crime Rates
• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Gangs
• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.
Incarceration
• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely."
TarynJolie
10-30-2005, 06:13 PM
I'm having difficulty finding a synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode you are you referring to.
I guess you didn't look too hard, lol.
The synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode I was referring to is available on the Law and Order website
A SCHOOL SHOOTING TURNS OUT TO BE RACIALLY MOTIVATED--A WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUP LINKED TO THE CRIME -Oscar Winner Marcia Gay Harden and Cody Kasch guest-star
http://www.nbc.com/Law_&_Order:_Special_Victims_Unit/
Amethyst
10-31-2005, 10:18 AM
in regard to the expression/promotion of grammy winning rappers who are arguably espousing hate lyrics against whites with impunity ---> http://www.amren.com/rap1.htm . Obviously all of the recording companies listed at that link are promoting and profiting from those artists/recordings - with Prussian Blue and other white artists clearly not receiving the same promotion even though their message is essentially similar from a hate speech standpoint.
How cute - use a bunch of lower tier rappers (with few exceptions) to excuse people Prussian Blue, Resistance Records, etc...::) I especially like the labels where the parent companies are in the UK or Germany. Anyway - tip of the ole iceburg here:
Guns 'N Roses - "One in a Million" - Geffen Records/Universal (parent co)
David Allan Coe - "N*gger F*cker" - Columbia Records, etc..
Bloodhound Gang - "Yellow Fever" - Geffen Records/Universal
Now if I had the time or the inclination - and again, I don't - I would continue searching and posting more racist lyrics (after reading the full songs and the history behind the artist/s instead of posting a ready-made list from "AmeriKKKan Renaissance). Do I believe that GNR (who, along with Coe are by far more popular and more "promoted" than any of the groups shown on AR's cute little list) is a racist group? No. Neither is Ice Cube or the majority of those groups. Did GNR have some racist lyrics - yep, so did Ice Cube, etc. The point is, the parent companies of these labels have themselves so far removed from the actual artists, that they rarely have to worry about any backlash from the media.
in regard to the disproportional hiring of blacks (and to a lesser degree the disproportional hiring of asians and other non-white minorities) for gov't jobs, yes there is certainly a large group of Americans that feel such measures are justified as 'payback' for past wrongdoing. However, the law says that racial discrimination is illegal, and these gov't hiring practices are clearly continuing de-facto discrimination in regard to the race of qualified applicants. Thus, arguably, qualified white applicants are not receiving equal consideration.
"Payback"? Or "leveling the playing field"? Promoting diversity is not the same as "de-facto discrimination". BTW, in regard to the "adversity.net" link - where are the stats on White Women? Were THEY proportionately hired?
Again, from a personal standpoint, I'm not condemning or condoning any of these things - I'm merely pointing out that they do exist.
:O
Amethyst
10-31-2005, 10:53 AM
I'm having difficulty finding a synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode you are you referring to. Does it have anything to do with the following statistics ?
http://amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm
"Major Findings:
• Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities.
Crime Rates
• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Gangs
• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.
Incarceration
• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely."
You can BET when I'm out of class I'm responding to this hodge-podge of manipulated stats, but in the meantime - what in the world do these "stats" have to do with Law and Order??
Jenny
10-31-2005, 11:09 AM
I'm having difficulty finding a synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode you are you referring to. Does it have anything to do with the following statistics ?
http://amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm
"Major Findings:
• Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities.
Well that's good to know. I can't think of statement more effective than, perhaps two southern policemen drawling "We ain't no racists. If we see a feller committing a crime, we arrest him. It ain't our fault that the feller's all happen to be black."
Crime Rates
• Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
• When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife.
• Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate.
• The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic.
Interracial Crime
• Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
• Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
• Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
• Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.
Gangs
• Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white.
• Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely.
Incarceration
• Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million.
• Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely."
You know, these stats are so compelling - I'm not even going to wonder about the methodology, or definitions of these terms - for example, I might mention that "committed" could be coloured by the fact that black defendants are about 7 times more likely to be convicted at trial, or mention that racism in the police force may account for some of that disparity or mention the fact that there is an inalienable connection between crime and poverty and there is a defacto class system built into racism or that the current system of detention is extremely self-fulfilling. Instead I shall thank you and the good people at American Renaisance (which is not at all a racist propoganda site - no! If it were racist, surely they would be using bad words! Surely their ideas can't be racist if they are not using the bad words!) for letting us know these very salient facts. It is good to know that black and hispanic people are dangerous and violent. In fact, in light of these finding, I don't know why we are letting them run the streets. Maybe we could set up some special prisons for them - or, I know! Camps! That's clearly what we need to be safe from all the bad black people. And hispanics. Actually I think Prussian Blue has a song about this.
Lilith
10-31-2005, 11:13 AM
Allow me to sum up the thread:
Whites doing it is bad; anyone else doing the same is cultural expression. Government indoctrination is a good thing. Being judged based not on the content of your character but the color of your skin is good for racial relations.
Someone remind me again how closing Political Poo doesn't mean we'll get the same debates in other forums. Tigerlily & Sockpuppet Co. vs. Melonie in a discussion about race. Deja vu all over again.
cinammonkisses
10-31-2005, 11:14 AM
http://amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm
I read the site but what year was this information comprised? Or, where they obtained this information to begin with. Numbers mean nothing until you have the sources cited. Below is a curriculum assignment for students at YALE UNIVERSITY. I copy/pasted some findings that I thought were important enough to pull out, but there is a wealth of information in the site as a whole.
Black Skin, White Justice: Race Matters in the Criminal Justice System
http://www.cis.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1996/1/96.01.10.x.html
All students generally, and Black students in particular, must come to the understanding that the racial prejudices of the larger society are also present in the criminal justice system. Attempts by anyone, especially teachers, to simply wish away these prejudices, or to gloss over them is as great a disservice to intellectual discourse as is the attempt by many to avoid any discussion of the subject at all.
Along those same lines, as the National Minority Advisory Council on Criminal Justice concluded in their national assessment of the impact of crime on minority communities, “America . . . is . . . a classic example of heavy-handed use of state and private power to control minorities and suppress their continuing opposition to the hegemony of white racist ideology.”
Oh yea, it gets better ;)
The Report of the National Criminal Justice Commission entitled: The Real War on Crime states that, “African-American arrest rates for drugs during the height of the “drug war” in 1989 were five times higher than arrest rates for whites even though whites and African-Americans were using drugs at the same rate.” As Earl Ofari Hutchinson stated “When the question is asked: Where are the white defendants? The police and prosecutors have a ready answer: “There’s as much cocaine in the Sears Tower or the stock exchange as there is in the black community,” says Charles Ramsey, head of the narcotics division of the Chicago Police Department, “but those guys are harder to catch.”8 When those in the criminal justice system believe that Whites “are harder to catch”, they inevitably concentrate their energies elsewhere, usually upon Black males.
In short, many Whites seem to agree with the system’s contention that it is colorblind. Many Blacks, and other so-called minorities, on the other hand, differ with this contention, believing that the judicial system is a “White” system where White people get justice (or get away with committing crimes), and Black people get punished.
Closer to home, the Task Force on Minority Fairness, appointed by Connecticut Supreme Court Chief Justice Ellen Peters in 1992, has made some interesting findings concerning the role of race in the criminal justice system. Consider the following:
-77 percent of minority attorneys think sheriffs and court employees are disrespectful to minorities.
-Defendants are sometimes stereotyped.
-The courts frequented by minorities are more crowded and have fewer resources, leading to the perception they are “poor people courts.”35
When the uprising occurred in Los Angeles after the first Rodney King verdict, Whites started to take a closer look at the injustices perpetrated against Blacks because they didn’t want more of the same in other major cities. Suddenly, Whites began to realize that there might be some racism in greater society and in the legal system.
It is truly odd that after the first King verdict, so many Whites talked about how we all should honor the legal system even though we may not have liked the outcome. However, after the O.J. verdict, Whites everywhere started questioning the legal system. It is this type of hypocrisy that leads to further racial prejudice. When Whites don’t win, they want to take their bat and ball and leave the field, only to play again under a new set of rules, their rules.
Jenny
10-31-2005, 11:21 AM
Lilith - come on. This is not a Tigerlily issue (and in case you're wondering - I'm not her). Posting links and reference to racist propaganda is a little beyond the pale, don't you think? I mean, I'm a big fan of generally ignoring this crap, but there does have to be SOME point where it is deemed offensive, short of her pasting a photo of herself is a sexy KKK costume.
Amethyst
10-31-2005, 11:30 AM
Allow me to sum up the thread:
Whites doing it is bad; anyone else doing the same is cultural expression. Government indoctrination is a good thing. Being judged based not on the content of your character but the color of your skin is good for racial relations.
Someone remind me again how closing Political Poo doesn't mean we'll get the same debates in other forums. Tigerlily & Sockpuppet Co. vs. Melonie in a discussion about race. Deja vu all over again.
::) LOL, you might want to try actually reading the thread before attempting to summarize it, Lilith. You may learn something.
Peace,
Amethyst - proud member of the SW community and the TL Sockpupper Co since January 2003 - striving to promote inclusiveness and fighting against evil racists and their henchmen.
Casual Observer
10-31-2005, 11:39 AM
Lilith - come on. This is not a Tigerlily issue (and in case you're wondering - I'm not her).
She's talking about FL Dancer, AKA TL and a slew of other shallow and transparent psuedonyms.
I'm having difficulty finding a synopsis of the upcoming Law and Order episode you are you referring to. Does it have anything to do with the following statistics ?
http://amren.com/store/colorcrime.htm
Um, there doesn't seem to be any verifiable sourcing data for these stats, even though this is all information that's publicly available via the FBI's annual CIUS report. (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf) I'm not going to rebutt everything posted, but some of what is posted on the Amren site is demonstrably false. For example (from the Amren site):
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Not looking to drown the thread in that apparently boring, awful, terrible, mean-spirited information I love to use called valid empirical data ;), so let's just use a little bit of that evil empirical data using murder as one example of violent crime rates, since the FBI categorizes violent crimes rather thoroughly (armed robbery, manslaughter, et al, etc.).
From page 18 of the FBI's annual CIUS report: (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf)
In homicides where the
race of the offender was known, 50.0
percent were black, 47.6 percent were
white, and 2.4 percent were other races.
(Based on Table 2.5.) Data from single
victim/single offender incidents showed
that 92.2 percent of black victims were
murdered by black offenders, and 84.8
percent of white victims were murdered
by white offenders. (Based on Table 2.7.)
(Table 2.7)
Murder Victim/Offender Relationship
by Race and Sex, 2004
[Single victim/single offender]
Race of Offender Sex of Offender
Race of victim Total White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown
White victims 3,727 3,123 522 37 45 3,309 373 45
Black victims 3,067 228 2,784 7 48 2,738 281 48
Other race victims 177 42 23 110 2 159 16 2
Unknown race 68 34 15 1 18 40 10 18
Race of offender Sex of offender
Sex of victim Total White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown
Male victims 5,050 2,253 2,613 110 74 4,488 488 74
Female victims 1,920 1,139 716 44 21 1,717 182 21
Unknown sex 69 35 15 1 18 41 10 18
NOTE: This table is based upon incidents where some information about the offender is known by law enforcement. It excludes incidents reported with a value of “unknown offender.” emphasis mine
The FBI numbers in the CIUS report certainly reveal a (sometimes grossly) disproportionate amount of crime committed by blacks (and to a lesser degree, Hispanics), and does so over a historically significant period of time, but nowhere near what is being suggested by the Amren folks. And it's not like the FBI reports are new--they've been doing them since 1979, so whenever data is posted that is so clearly out of alignment with the statistical patterns and trends shown in FBI demographic crime data, you have to presume some sort of political agenda or base racial motivation.
Melonie
10-31-2005, 03:32 PM
Again the point goes full circle ... the thread which began by shouting down Prussian Blue exercising their 1st amendment rights to put forth an admittedly racist message has now progressed to shouting down anybody else who would in any way point out the hypocracy of that position versus dozens of other artists who put forth essentially the same racist message (although aimed at a different race).
Rhiannon
10-31-2005, 05:29 PM
Tigerlily & Sockpuppet Co. vs. Melonie
:rotfl: Lilith.. LMFAO.. I don't know how I missed this.
Melonie
10-31-2005, 05:49 PM
Unfortunately, some folks just do not find anything wrong with the message expressed by Prussian Blue. I doubt anyone will be able to change their minds on the matter either.
For the record, I personally do happen to find a great deal wrong with the message expressed by Prussian Blue. However, I personally also happen to find a great deal wrong with the message expressed by 'gangsta rappers'. As a libertarian, I would defend the rights of both to express their message, or at the very least would tolerate an EQUAL degree of restraint in the interest of social harmony. However, the heavy restraint towards Prussian Blue versus essentially no restraint towards 'gangsta rappers' simply smacks of politically correct hypocracy. At any rate, I echo your comment that it's doubtful that any minds will be changed in this regard.
Jenny
10-31-2005, 06:21 PM
Okay I really cannot let this slide - Melonie I have to stress this again. You are posting links to overtly racist sites that are strongly connected to and lauded by other "white power" sites to show that other races are dangerous. You are not making point about the misogynist/violent content of gangsta rap with posts like that. Just making overtly and offensive racist commentary. (and thanks to CO for providing us with facts that we were all so sadly lacking - although it still would not address social issues)
By the way - I don't think anyone is untroubled by the violence and misogyny of the kind of music that you talk about. Some people, however, believe that there is social context that helps create meaning. One might make all sorts of arguments against this, but one would not successfully bolster one's position that one is not racist and just doesn't like racism in other by linking to (for example) the KKK website that would then inform us on how bad black people and hispanics are. This does not mean that other people think this music is "problem free".
And - I might point out - neither groups legal right to produce such music is under fire here. Just the stupidity and poor taste of it.
Casual Observer
10-31-2005, 06:33 PM
And - I might point out - neither groups legal right to produce such music is under fire here. Just the stupidity and poor taste of it.
The legality is not in question; it's the social acceptability and attractiveness of one vis a vis the near-universal reviling and denunciation of another.