View Full Version : Anti-Fur
mollyzmoon
11-30-2005, 08:24 AM
Peter Singer's argument (as far as I can remember from first year)...is essentially also Jeremy Bentham's utilitarian argument:
Premise 1: Pain is bad. As such, it is better to avoid pain.
Premise 2: Animals feel pain.
Therefore, Inflicting pain on animals is bad.
Just like it is wrong to kill people, it is wrong to kill animals. Most philosophers who like steak and leather counter this with some kind of reason to exclude animals from the moral community. Singer replies to this objection with some convincing analogies of past 'moral communities' that excluded black people, jewish people, women, etc...
And just as you wouldn't 'make up your own mind and not preach' about your personal moral problems with say, genocide, in Singer's view you are MORALLY REQUIRED to speak out against the same abuse of animal life (ie- factory farming that he compares to the holocaust- don't bite me over this, I am paraphrasing!).
But then, people didn't really say much about the Holocaust, or Cambodia, or Rwanda until AFTER the fact anyway. Because? They didn't really appreciate the gravity of the situation at the time? Who's being naive there- hi, this is CNN, and as you can see those are some Africans with machetes hacking at other Africans...it's really too bad, isn't it?
Maybe utilitarians have an issue with overestimating human compassion.
Jenny Says … “Really. All other things being equal a vegetarian diet is healthier than a meat based one. There is concern for children under two getting enough protein per gram - largely because children "naturally" would be weaned between 2 and 3 and we tend to wean them at 6 weeks.”
“Vitamin D is not found in the vegan diet but can be made by humans following exposure to sunlight. At least ten to fifteen minutes of summer sun on hands and face two to three times a week is recommended for adults so that vitamin D production can occur.”
From : http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/vegan.htm#protein
Sorry, but if for no other reason, the vegan diet is not the best way to eat nor is it a completely balanced diet. It is missing Vitamin D.
“Although vegan diets are undoubtedly beneficial in certain respects, they are detrimental in others, causing minor to serious health problems that often go unnoticed. Critics maintain that even the most informed, health-conscious vegans run the risk of malnutrition [4]. There are several nutrients that are found in abundance in animal products, but exist in only a handful of vegan foods. Therefore, critics argue, while it is possible to get all of the essential nutrients on a vegan diet, it is extremely challenging.”
From http://starchefs.com/features/food_debates/html/issue_01.shtml
“Furthermore, many vegans lose all skepticism and sense of perspective. They believe anything remotely pro-vegan, or even slightly anti-meat. Any health study is either proclaimed as showing that a vegan diet is the best, or else the researchers are condemned as anti-vegan mercenaries. Veganism will cure anything, and any speck of animal product is deadly poison. Any counterevidence is omitted; unknowns are dismissed; uncertainty is disregarded; grey areas are ignored”
From http://www.veganoutreach.org/sanfranspeech.html
Look this list can get longer and longer of VEGANS that agree with me on many points.
The point is, sometimes people take things too far. First meat, then meat products, then clothing form animals … so no hamburgers, no eggs, cheese, milk, no leather, fur … well if you are going to go that far, you have to include down, wool, silk … zealot is the only word that comes to mind.
Jenny says “Okay, this is ridiculous. I have been a strict vegetarian for 10 years. My hair doesn't fall out. I have a minor case of anemia that I have had since I was 8 years old. My iron levels are no higher or lower. My skin doesn't crack. Most of my friends are vegetarians or vegans who occasionally indulge in cheese. Nobody I know has this problem. You are obviously one of few people who are prone to extremely low iron, and it's likely that you shouldn't be a vegetarian. But you are the anomaly - this is not indicative of a human condition.”
And so what if I am one of the few people that have the problem .. Probably I wasn’t getting the things n my diet that I needed, some of which I probably could have, and still been vegetarian. That isn’t the point. I was just stating my particular experience. I wasn’t saying your hair was going to fall out.
“That is not even true. You can deprive a bear of meat and it will still be fat and sassy. Deprive it of vegetation and it will rapidly get mean and starve”
Well, I never said that instead of not eating meat people should not eat veggies, I think they should eat both. Both are what God intended us to eat.
“This is not a matter of competing with nature; it is a matter of examining our own role - even a complicit role”
Well, Jenny, last thing I heard we were still at the top of the food chain. If the bear was at the top of the food chain do you think it would not eat us because it isn’t ethical … no … if it was that bad, he wouldn’t have the anatomy to eat us. He was made to eat meat and that is exactly what he will do.
I do have a question … where did you read that you could starve a bear of meat and that they could live healthily and happily off of just vegetation? I would like to read that article.
Mia M
12-02-2005, 07:06 AM
Wow, such an intresting thread! Everyone is so passionate about their beliefs. Someone mentioned earlier that you shouldn't force your opinion onto others, I'm in the same camp.
I don't know about a grizzly on a vegan diet, but a pandas digestive system is a carnivorous one yet they choose to eat nothing but bamboo. They have to eat half their body weight in bamboo daily and sleep 20 hours a day due to thier nutrient lacking diet. So there is proof in the animal kingdom that you don't need to eat something because your body is designed to. They also spray like cats. That has nothing to do with the subject, I just thought it was an intresting/gross panda fact.
However, I once had a cat named Opie. My vet told me Opie would become very sick if I fed him dog food because it contained less meat proteins than cat food. "Cats are carnivores," he said "they need more meat than the average pet to stay healthy." If that's true, I'm sure putting Opie on a vegitarian diet would of killed him. Of course I wasn't about to put his theory to the Pepsi challenge so we'll never know.
Someone mentioned boycotting a circus because of cases of animal abuse. I actually knew a guy who was an animal trainer for Wringling Bros. He was a zebra trainer at the time, but he's trained every exotic animal in the circus including elephants. He LOVED his animals. If one was sick, he'd sleep next to it's corral at night until it got better. He swore he'd personally strangle anyone if he caught them abusing any creature. He said his dream job was to take care of the animals at the Wringling Bros animal retirement community.
He was good to those animals and he was good at what he did. Abuse of animals in circuses is a sad and unfortunate occurance but for every abusive trainer, there are a dozen others who give thier animals the best possible care. Some would argue that an animal in a circus is abuse, feel free to start a thread about that.
As for dogs and cats posing as luxery fur, most decent fur products come with tags stating what type of animal it's made of; rabbit, mink, chinchilla etc. If you can't find the appropriate ingredients list, don't be upset if you later find out you're wearing Rover. Most likely, you won't have to worry about your beloved pet being stolen out of your backyard and sold at Burlington Coat Factory unless you live in Taiwan. Most mystery fur products are made overseas.
Was the guy being insensitive by wearing the fur trimed coat? I don't think so (the racoon may think differently). His comment about it being okay because he didn't purchase it may be considered a little ignorant to some, but I don't think the offending fashion makes him evil or stupid.
Did she have the right to refuse to entertain him? Absolutely. She decided to uphold her beliefs and she didn't try to convert him. I think you did the right thing. You have the right to beleive in whatever you want and refuse service to who ever you want just like he has the right to wear what he wants. Kudos to you for expressing yourself without forcing your views onto others. I wish anti-choicers would do the same. Again, feel free to start another thread on that.
Now I'm going to eat some veal while wearing my rabbit trimmed calf skin boots.
Jenny
12-02-2005, 09:36 AM
Sorry, but if for no other reason, the vegan diet is not the best way to eat nor is it a completely balanced diet. It is missing Vitamin D.
Hmm. You've got a point here. If you are a vegan and 24 hours a day all year (because Vit D is one of the few vitamins your body stockpiles) in a dark room you might suffer from a lack of vitamin D.
There are several nutrients that are found in abundance in animal products, but exist in only a handful of vegan foods.
Well this I already know. However those are the nutrients that people really only require trace elements of.
Therefore, critics argue, while it is possible to get all of the essential nutrients on a vegan diet, it is extremely challenging.”
From http://starchefs.com/features/food_debates/html/issue_01.shtml
Oh. Critics say that? You don't say.
“Furthermore, many vegans lose all skepticism and sense of perspective. They believe anything remotely pro-vegan, or even slightly anti-meat. Any health study is either proclaimed as showing that a vegan diet is the best, or else the researchers are condemned as anti-vegan mercenaries. Veganism will cure anything, and any speck of animal product is deadly poison. Any counterevidence is omitted; unknowns are dismissed; uncertainty is disregarded; grey areas are ignored”
From http://www.veganoutreach.org/sanfranspeech.html
So because some vegans are ridiculous, the vegan diet is unhealthy?
Look this list can get longer and longer of VEGANS that agree with me on many points.
Well. Since all my points centred around vegans knowing everything and always being in perfect concerted agreement as opposed to a vegan diet being perfectly healhty I can see your point.
The point is, sometimes people take things too far. First meat, then meat products, then clothing form animals … so no hamburgers, no eggs, cheese, milk, no leather, fur … well if you are going to go that far, you have to include down, wool, silk … zealot is the only word that comes to mind.
How is that too far? Someone making a personal choice not to wear wool is "too far?" Too far for what? You think someone not wearing silk is a zealot? And, as I've already said - I think your contention that all ethical exercise must be all or nothing is ridiculous; some action is always better than none.
And so what if I am one of the few people that have the problem .. Probably I wasn’t getting the things n my diet that I needed, some of which I probably could have, and still been vegetarian. That isn’t the point. I was just stating my particular experience. I wasn’t saying your hair was going to fall out.
I think my point is that the effect of the diet on you is an anomaly - some people are allergic to broccoli - it doesn't mean broccoli is unhealthy or bad for people. Just that that one person shouldn't eat broccoli.
Well, I never said that instead of not eating meat people should not eat veggies, I think they should eat both. Both are what God intended us to eat.
Oh my god. Are we concerning ourselves with god's intentions now? If god's intentions for us to eat the animals was going to be so strict, he (or she) might have been a little considerate and NOT given them the ability to feel pain. And I don't think you'll find much in any religioius document anywhere condoning or necessitating factory farming. My point with the bear is that omnivores don't really require meat - they do require vegetation.
Well, Jenny, last thing I heard we were still at the top of the food chain.
Oh god. The food chain argument. I love the way people talk about the food chain like it exists.
If the bear was at the top of the food chain do you think it would not eat us because it isn’t ethical … no … if it was that bad, he wouldn’t have the anatomy to eat us. He was made to eat meat and that is exactly what he will do.
Actually bears eat about 90% vegetation. Apparently they also seek out fermented fruit. You can always indentify the drunk bears because they are rowdy and trying to disco. In any case, bears don't factory farm and bears aren't concerned with ethics. Me, I am. If you are trying to say that you wish the have the ethical introspection of an animal - well good luck to you.
I do have a question … where did you read that you could starve a bear of meat and that they could live healthily and happily off of just vegetation? I would like to read that article.
Honestly, sweetheart, I don't know. I read a lot, and I know lots of things - far too many to readily track every piece of trivia. If you are actually interested in the subject I'm sure you could find lots of information with a cursory search.
Jenny
12-02-2005, 09:43 AM
ooh.
I didn't mention.
Although bears don't factory farm, apparently ants keep farms. Of aphids. I don't remember where I read that either. But apparently the ants "milk" something out of the aphids.
Pamela
12-02-2005, 10:10 AM
Just catching up with what i wanted to say.
Humans have a choice. You want to take that Chemo and suffer, do it or dont!
Animals have NO choice, once you are caught and caged, it's a done deal 99% of the time, capture or escape is their only hope.
Also yea, the bear can live on a non-meat diet? Whoa...would be nice to read the facts on that one! They can't hun.
Me i am Vegan! Not a damn thing wrong with me! I put NO animal products in my body at all, and try my very best to research all products used for my skin hair etc.
Again, a personal choice.
Yes babies go on Vegetarian diets!!!!! I have seen and talked to mothers of them at work before!
Humans eat meat becasue they LIKE it! That is a fact! What are you getting out of meat today except hormones, antibiotics, steroids and other dead animals fed to them with the grain! Ok, a tad bit of Iron, some B's....well thay are all abundant in other foods!
How many times have you read and heard i like my meat? However we can live without it and not die...as a matter of fact get healthier....FACT.
Get facts! They are out there. Talk to you're doctor. Veg. friends, books, whatever...It's the much needless suffereing of the animals that needs to stop!
And i wish circus animals are treated with love and compassion. But a Elephant NEEDS a prod with a hook for training...
And a Zebra needs lots of cracks on the face neck and ass.
Behind the scenes footage shows this. And, the trainers say "do it now back here, because we can't do it out there"! I only wish.
OH....J Crew stopped the selling of FUR on their clothing a couple days ago announced!
See people who care make a diference!!!!!
Even China can be HAD :)
Pamela
Look, I could care less what you do/don’t eat. I am not trying to convince you to eat meat. I don’t care if you ever buy fur again. I do care if you wag your finger in my nose telling me that my steak promotes the abuse of animals as you wear a wool hat and leather shoes.
If you really have strong moral convictions pertaining to animal rights, then damnit, actually stick to your convictions. Don’t tell me lying is wrong and you only do it when it is convenient.
A lot of people with strong beliefs make shit up and believe everything they hear that goes along with there side. Apparently you are one of them. Like you said, I am the exception to the vegan diet, maybe the Panda is the exception. Also, bamboo obviously isn’t healthier...
“They have to eat half their body weight in bamboo daily and sleep 20 hours a day due honestly, sweetheart, I don't know. I read a lot, and I know lots of things - far too many to readily track every piece of trivia. If you are actually interested in the subject I'm sure you could find lots of information with a cursory search. To their nutrient lacking diet.”
“"Advertising" is not a concern of mine. Not contributing or contributing as little as possible to animal cruelty and environmental pollution is.”
Ok … so advertising that something you believe is wrong is actually ok is not contributing?? I don’t understand that. Look, If I wear a swastika, people are going to assume that I am racist, why, because people that are not racist and believe it is wrong would not wear one … why is that any different for fur. If you think it is that wrong, you shouldn’t wear it. People are going to see that on your body and think .. Oh, I like that I think ill go get one too. By wearing fur you are telling everyone that it is ok to slaughter animals and put them on your back... you have to think like that, hell you have one of em on your own back!!!
“You are obviously one of few people who are prone to extremely low iron”
What does iron have to do with my hair falling out? Sorry, but anemia wasn’t the cause of my problems, if it was, don’t you think I just would have taken an iron supplement? My problems were a cause of several dietary related problems.
“However what I see here are unreasoned, unresearched, unknowledgable and unthoughtful responses that are blatantly condescending to and insulting much more reasoned and thoughtful positions on no basis except for equating compassion with simplistic stupidity.”
Right and we know that you did your research because you are willing to put up the places that you got your information from … right? “much more reasoned and thoughtful posts” … hmmm …. A reasoned and thoughtful post would not ask skeptics of your research and knowledge to go look it up them selves. They would have resources to support there ideas. I will admit that before you posted that, I didn’t have resources, why… because I didn’t think someone was going to make comments like those. No I can say the same for you … you un-researched, unknowledgeable posts about how bears can be fat and sassy off of a vegan diet are insulting to say the least. Look, I know a lot of people will just believe anything they hear, you sound like one if you believe that, but I am not one of them, your theory is wrong until you prove to me that it is correct. I am showing where I get my info/facts, why don’t you show me you got yours.
I would like to throw in there that since in does not offend meat eaters for others to choose not to eat meat, and it does offend non-meat-eaters for us to eat meat, I am simply defending meat-eating. I do not see anything wrong with eating a steak. I also do not see anything wrong with not eating a steak if that is what you want to do. I do see something wrong with people telling me I am wrong especially when they do the same thing only in a different form. One might say that “I am doing my part and something is better than nothing, I don’t eat lamb, veal, deer, anything rodent, and many other meat products. Why? Because I don’t want to. I don’t preach at others who do.
Jay Zeno
12-02-2005, 11:57 AM
There is a train of thought that the panda, given its awful digestion and procreation, would be well on the road to extinction naturally, but for the intervention of preservation efforts by humans. I just thought I'd throw that in, being a helpful guy and all.
:)
Jenny
12-02-2005, 12:32 PM
Okay, I had a whole quippy insulting response here. But instead I shall waive a white flag, and say "Let's not fight" and just delete it. I was rude, you were rude, now let's just stop and be polite again.
I do see something wrong with people telling me I am wrong especially when they do the same thing only in a different form. One might say that “I am doing my part and something is better than nothing, I don’t eat lamb, veal, deer, anything rodent, and many other meat products. Why? Because I don’t want to. I don’t preach at others who do.
You might. However one would wonder at the ethicial difference of not eating deer over not eating cattle. (One woman here noted such a difference in eating cattle and eating fish - that fish are not factory farmed. I don't eat fish, but I can appreciate the distinction. Many, even most vegetarians will eat honey, but not eggs, based on the different quality of life between kept bees and kept chickens. Same difference for silk and wool. Many people will only eat free range eggs. Many will only eat rennet free cheese. Some, like Pamela eschew all animal products. However, I doubt that even she, as the quintessential non-hypocritical vegan would find my stance (non orginal leather, free range eggs, rennet free cheese (no milk, because milk is gross) to be "hypocritical" because it doesn't go into what you called zealotry. But there is a qualitative difference there. I don't see such a difference in what you are setting out.
Pamela
12-02-2005, 02:10 PM
Well Damn...if Mast. eats meat tonite i will kick his ASS!!!!
No, i respect people and their opinions. Eat meat, wear fur....hell i have friends that do, and i don't say a word...
BUT, i feel damn good NOT supporting animal abuse!!! If anyone here thinks these animals are well taken care of and killed in a "kind" way. Well we all know that is not true.
And if you don't care, you simply don't care. So why get in an up-roar if you don't care?
I stick to what i believe, and respect those who believe in eating meat etc. Again it's a choice.
But when words are being thrown around by some who don't have facts, i just wish they would educate first...Because it's a sad situation.
Pamela :)
OK MAST....NO FUCKIN MEAT AROUND ME.....But he wants his ass kicked so i can say that!!!
Carry on ladies...i have an open mind to what others do or don't do! But not so open when we are not showing facts here...i like facts when it comes to people who will talk about what is right or wrong when it comes to animal care and slaughter!
PS, many slaughter houses are not in compliance. many PET STORES are not functioning within the proper rules and LAWS....Seems animals get the Fucked end no matter what yes?
Unless it's a 'PET" how about your pet, different game....I see. And, thoughts change then, and so will your rules...Hell it's a pet, a dog. A cat. A horse. Name it. They are all getting tortured for US, and don't have too.
Thank you Jenny...i just saw that....i try! :)
doc-catfish
12-02-2005, 02:15 PM
(I wasnt sure if this belongs in stripping general or here)
Last night a customer came in and we started chatting at the bar, he was obviously quite interested, probably would have bought a dance. Anyway I noticed the fur trim on his jacket and paused. I looked at it and said please tell me thats a really good fake, and he's said no, its real. I felt sick and asked what type of fur it was and he said racoon. I was heartbroken and had to hold back my anger/sadness. I told him how disgusted I was and he said it was ok cos he didnt pay for it, a fashion designer friend gave it to him, like that makes it ok??! Anyway I had to walk away and avoided him until he left. He called me over again, presumably for a dance but no amount of money he could offer would have made me want to dance for him or talk to him. I guess alot of people would see this as pretty dumb, virtually turning down money cos i didnt approve of a custys coat, but it upset me so much I couldnt have looked at him or it.
Dumb depends on what your motivation for going to work is. You're free to believe in any type of activism that you so choose, and support is as passionately as you want to, BUT...
Where so many people who get involved in activism (anti-fur, anti-gun, pro gun, pro death penalty, anti-abortion, doesn't matter) seem to lose their vertical hold is failing to realize that their beliefs are something that they and other like-minded people personally chose to adhere to, and not commandments that are set in stone that should be forced upon their ideological "infidels". I'm getting really sick and tired of activists of varying persausions trying to make their personal edicts everyone's edicts.
You are free to refuse service to any customer you wish, for any reason that you wish. But it should be clear that as a dancer, you are first and foremost a businesswoman. When you're in business, its not exactly wise, or healthy to one's finances, to wear their politics on their sleeve.
My parents have run their own proprietorship for 30+ years. During that time, they have been asked by numerous political candidates to put election signs or other election paraphanilia on their property. They refused every time, even if they supported the candidate. Why? Because they got into business first and foremost to make money, and can't afford to piss off any potential customers by supporting a candidate that the customer opposes. They have deeply rooted beliefs like anybody else, but as businesspeople they know deeply rooted beliefs take a back seat to putting food on the table. Have any of you ladies ever discussed politics with a customer? Well, if your answer is no, I'm sure you have a good reason for that.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to be working in a profession which entails you to be interacting with the public, I can assure you that you many of those you will be dealing with WILL have viewpoints on fur, vegetarianism, animal rights, or any other emotional topic, that aren't going to be in sync with your own. The facts are that most people eat meat. Most people wear clothing, or use goods containing animal products. Most drink alcoholic beverages. Many use tobacco products. Some abuse drugs. Some drive gas guzzling SUV's. Some of the men you entertain every night are married. Some of those married men have children. Are you going to refuse to do business with customers on account of these morally questionable things as well? Why not? I can assure you that someone out there thinks you should.
The fact is that the customer in this case came in to be entertained, not to get a lecture on his choice of outerwear. Just as you are not obliged to dance for him, he is not obliged to wear clothing or eat foods that are in compliance with your personal standards of political correctness. Again, sorry for my tone here, but expecting someone whom is offering you money for dances to bow to your edicts on a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with the transaction is downright unprofessional.
It would be best in the future to leave your politics at the door where they belong, or find a job where it won't be an issue in your ability to make money. If you wish to place your values above your bank account, as you did in this case, then more power to you. But it should be noted that in doing so those checks to those animal rights goups you wish to support are going to be significantly smaller than they could be.
And that's my two dollars and two cents on this issue. For some reason, a property seasoned form of dead animal seems kinda scrumptous at the moment, so I'm outta here.
:yummy:
Death threats, mail bombs, irate PETA activists and other unpleasantries should be mailed to:
:duck:
Doc Catfish
123 Yellow Brick Road, suite Z (next to Cowardly Lion Taxidermy)
Damnthatcowwastasty, KS 67999
Pamela
12-02-2005, 02:34 PM
Just for you Doc. And i wear it well. ;D
Love ya anyway....
Irate bitch...sending mail....;D Blowing up the Umm office next to you...:O OK...sheesh before i get hate mail j/K::)
Madcap
12-02-2005, 02:48 PM
Pam mentioned the circus. The curcus is another thing i'm with PETA on. There is absolutely no reason to teach a lion to stand on it's nose, it's not even interesting. Look, it's a dancing bear... *yawn*
And get a look behind the scenes. A few years ago someone got in there with a hidden camera and the footage they got was just sickening and a half. Yeah, i realize that it was the bad stuff that got trumpeted and televised, but that bad stuff was more than enough to turn me off to the circus.
Pamela
12-02-2005, 03:16 PM
Pam mentioned the circus. The curcus is another thing i'm with PETA on. There is absolutely no reason to teach a lion to stand on it's nose, it's not even interesting. Look, it's a dancing bear... *yawn*
And get a look behind the scenes. A few years ago someone got in there with a hidden camera and the footage they got was just sickening and a half. Yeah, i realize that it was the bad stuff that got trumpeted and televised, but that bad stuff was more than enough to turn me off to the circus.
Yes i myself have been able to sneak behing the scenes...how fuckin sad...i have pictures to this day!!!!
Also a LION jumping through FIRE...wow, in the natural habitat they alarm all others of the pride and RUN! Other animals NOT Lions hear this warning and flee too...smart...they are indeed smart if all are left alone.
Very sad...fuckin sad.
susie
12-02-2005, 06:14 PM
I think you live by your decisions, and if you choose to not dance for some one who wears animal products, that is your business. The raccoons are overpopulated because of city waste. They thrive in the city, the citys catch them and dump them in the country wear they either starve for lack of knowing how to survive w/out a dumpster, or they are trapped of by local farmers, and pelts are sold. They are over populated. It is bad to NOT kill these animals. You choose not to, and that is your choice.
You should have told the customer what was wrong instead of just avoiding him, he might have been waiting to buy a dance from you, and left with no dances, wear if you were honest with him, he could have bought a dance from some one who didn't mind that he had a raccoon pelt for a coat.
I lived completely animal product free for 10 years(no eggs, and even ground my own flour for my own bread), so I can simpathise to your feelings(I just no longer share them). This is, however, the land of the free. What you did is no better then some one calling you a whore because you are a stripper.
Me myself, I'm a carnivore, I love meat. I'll shoot it myself to, a nice clean shot so that it feels nothing but sleep. I will also thank the animals spirit for it's gift and make sure I use whatever parts from it's body that I can, including it's hide. I love leather :) It's beautiful and warm.
BTW* It is ILLEGAL to sell cat and dog leather/fur products in the USA, and it is moniterd even in flea markets. It is not illegal to turn your pet dog scruffys coat into a pelt so you can always sleep with him(ewww) or to cut their hair and weave it into a scarf(double ewwww).
Narcissus
12-02-2005, 07:11 PM
Jenny,
Waving a 'white flag' and saying, "Let's not fight" is hilarious. I understand that you would like to debate rather than argue, but in doing so ... you use it to back out of a losing debate (argument). After your flag waving ... you then proceed to avoid all the points that Lady pointed out except one. And the one point you chose is one in which there is no simple or easy way of demonstrating a right or a wrong as it is somewhat a matter of opinion. Either wave a real 'white flag' and concede that you were wrong or actually attempt to prove your view point. I'm mildly irritated that through this whole thread you have attacked others and made rude, insulting remarks and then when someone gets the majority of your points together and dares you to actually attempt to give some credence to them ... you wave a white flag at rudeness while avoiding/ignoring the issues that were discussed.
I am also very anti fur - and anti-leather, for that matter. However I do think that there is a difference if you don't pay for it, because you are not partaking in the industry. Nutshell - if nobody paid for it, nobody would do it, right? So second hand things don't matter as much to me. In any case, I would not have made the same decision - just because I see no greater impact; but if you don't want/need the money of someone wearing fur trim, that is your decision.
Obviously you and I have very different concerns regarding social change and ethical buying. "Advertising" is not a concern of mine. Not contributing, or contributing as little as possible to animal cruelty and and environmental pollution is. So to me it makes perfect sense that there is less or no culpability in wearing fur or leather that one doesn't pay for (or buy extension - it wouldn't work, for example, if one were given new gifts of leather or fur; one would then still be a direct contributor). If you are more concerned about "advertising" (and I'm not even going into how poor and non-reflective or non-explicative your analogy is here - but really. It's bad) than effect that is your call. But telling me that mine (effect) is hypocritical is... well, it is impolite and stupid. But I doubt your goal in calling me hypocritical was to be polite.
I'll call you hypocritical and I assure you that my goal is not to be polite, it is to point out that you are hypocritical. Even though Lady made quite an excellent analogy (and you are unable to refute it which is why I believe you criticize it), let us go this route: Analogies aside ... if you are wearing something that you are so vehemently against purchasing (or as you later amended: purchasing or having purchased for you), do you also wear a sign that says, "This fur coat and these leather shoes were not purchased by me or for me ... they are a relic of someone's evil past and regardless of their origins, I choose to wear them."? No? If not, then you are indirectly advertising those items. And I thought you were against people purchasing them! Regardless of how you would like to perceive things: Advertising a thing is advocating a thing. I hope you now understand why you were called hypocritical. If not, let me know and I'll try a different method than an analogy that is nearly a perfect match and a direct explanation.
How is that too far? Someone making a personal choice not to wear wool is "too far?" Too far for what? You think someone not wearing silk is a zealot? And, as I've already said - I think your contention that all ethical exercise must be all or nothing is ridiculous; some action is always better than none.
In my opinion, the best way to state this: "I think that your contention that all ethical exercise must be either all or nothing is ridiculous without considering all the grey areas that I create because of my inability to follow through with my own convictions."
Having convictions and adhering to them are two seperate things. Don't confuse them. If you lack the fervor and strength of will to follow them, that is because of what you lack. It can be hard to stick to your convictions, noone is trying to judge you for that. Yet rather than be willing to admit that you are unable to follow through with what you believe in, you shroud the issue and make it seem like doing one thing isn't the same as doing the other when it obviously is. Some things do have grey areas, but this isn't one of them. Regardless of how you attained the item, if purchasing it is bad ... then advocating its purchase is the same thing and thats exactly what you are doing if you wear (advertise) them.
That is not even true. You can deprive a bear of meat and it will still be fat and sassy. Deprive it of vegetation and it will rapidly get mean and starve.
Honestly, sweetheart, I don't know. I read a lot, and I know lots of things - far too many to readily track every piece of trivia. If you are actually interested in the subject I'm sure you could find lots of information with a cursory search.
I did more than a cursory search and found nothing that agrees with you. I did, however ... find numerous articles that refute you. I'm not sure if you just made that up to attempt to prove your point or if you heard it and naively took it to be true. Either way ...
Narcissus
12-02-2005, 07:24 PM
So because some vegans are ridiculous, the vegan diet is unhealthy?
Humans eat meat becasue they LIKE it! That is a fact! What are you getting out of meat today except hormones, antibiotics, steroids and other dead animals fed to them with the grain! Ok, a tad bit of Iron, some B's....well thay are all abundant in other foods!
How many times have you read and heard i like my meat? However we can live without it and not die...as a matter of fact get healthier....FACT.
Get facts! They are out there. Talk to you're doctor. Veg. friends, books, whatever...It's the much needless suffereing of the animals that needs to stop!
The fact is ... not eating animal products and becoming a vegan because of it is asinine. I don't mean to offend anyone, but people need to stop listening to rumors and falsehoods that have been passed around for years and years and actually get the facts.
The fact is, uncounted numbers of animals are killed, maimed, and severely injured from harvesting the foods that vegans so proudly proclaim that they eat. So if you are a vegan because you feel that slaughtering animals in a slaughter house is inhumane, I hope you can learn to grow your own foods. Unless you feel that rabbits, mice, pheasants, snakes and other field animals don't deserve even as much as cows do. If you want facts about these things ... don't believe what the fanatical pro-vegan or anti-vegan groups say. Look at all the vast amounts of research that has been done by non-extremists from both sides of the issue.
The Least Harm Principle Suggests that Humans Should Eat Beef, Lamb, Dairy, not a Vegan Diet.
OSU scientist questions the moral basis of a vegan diet
Am I saying that being a vegan isn't healthy? Somewhat, yes. Many of the foods that vegans eat are beyond healthy. Packed with nutrients and goodness, they are extremely good for you ...... uncooked. That is another huge misconception about eating vegatarian foods. The foods are good for you ... but once cooked the majority of those foods lose the majority of their nutritional value.
Vegatarian Diets
Also ... for an index of informative articles go here:
For those of you with children and teens who are curious about the effects of a vegan diet in regards to your children might find the following links interesting:
How to Be a Healthy Vegetarian: A Guide for Teens
Vegetarian eating
Children harmed by vegan diets -- BBC NEWS
The healthiest diet is not vegan, it is a good combination of both. The half-truths, lies, and misinformation that has spread over the last two decades is being refuted from all sides.
The single most important thing I can say in this post is that people should read the two following articles:
Don't Let Philosophy Become More Important Than What Works, by Dr. Ben Kim of Life Essentials Health Clinic
The Myths of Vegetarianism, by Stephen Byrnes, ND, PhD, RNCP
hardkandee
12-02-2005, 07:58 PM
OK.
So I've avoided this conversation for 5 pages. I've contacted a few people to tell them how I feel about what they've said and I didn't want to get involved. I didn't want to piss anyone off, I didn't want to put myself out there as a target to be cut to shreds (as it happends nonetheless on either side). I still don't want to step on toes.
And that's my whole point. No one is trying to control anyone else. Vegans are (mostly forever) going to be a small minority. Why bother attacking that? For whatever reason, vegans and vegetarians (and any combination of the two) make the decision to not do what makes them uncomfortable. For some, the comfort range is no meat. Some no fur. Everyone has their boundaries. Many people in the United States would never consider eating horse, dog or cat. And that's where their boundaries are. That doesn't mean they are stupid or that they need to stop eating meat completely. Maybe you saw Babmi and the thought of venison just doesn't sit right. FINE. You aren't weak for not going all or nothing.
My eating what I eat doesn't hurt anyone. The only person hurting by me not going to the circus, is the circus!
It amazes me that vegetarianism and veganism is under such scrutiny. There are much more destructive behaviors for people to debate about. There are many times where I feel like people have more to say about my Tofurky habit than someone who smokes or drinks, both of which are most more obvious risks.
So, I'll eat what is on my plate and you can eat what is on yours. But at least share the table.
PaigeDWinter
12-02-2005, 08:34 PM
I really dont look up or down at anyone for their choices in attire and/or diet...
I personally eat a lot of meat, wear a lot of leather and fur, and have been hunting and fishing and raising fur & meat animals since I was 5. I believe in the Humans Have Been This Way For A Long Time theory, and I dont plan on changing it, as far as myself goes. I acknowledge my canine teeth LOL. I dont, however, agree with some of the obscenely cruel ways some folks go about obtaining meat and hide....
That's just my 2 cents.