View Full Version : Stanley "Tookie" Williams
Jenny
12-09-2005, 06:30 PM
Hey Sirona - I think most people would agree with you. However, things to keep in mind - not everyone in prison is a murderer. Some people just can't pay their parking tickets. Granted, they don't need gender reassignment surgery, but you get my point. In any case, if one concedes that prisoners do still have BASIC human rights (the general care) there is inevitably the conversation about what constitutes a basic right over a privilege, and of course what the reason for the prison system is. Most people in prison are going to get out some day (because they are not all multiple murderers, as I said). And that leads one to question what sorts of people we are molding them into while they are in, and what "real chance" they have when they get out. I think it would be really interesting to create real qualifications for prison guards, instead of treating it like a menial position. I wonder if anyone does that - requires a social work or psychology background for prison guarding, and how well their system works. Anyone?
Casual Observer
12-09-2005, 06:47 PM
But isn't the point of clemency to exercise sheer political discretion? Or do I not understand clemency?
You understand it fine. Political discretion in clemency means that the law is not being equally applied, and that's what galls me. Either he is guilty of the crimes he committed (see below) or he's not guilty, and if he's guilty, the sentence must be carried out per the law. This is one of the inherent problems with capital punishment; if Williams "merely" received life without parole, none of this would be up for discussion.
Like if it were justifiable or "fair" in any way, it would be another appeal, yes?
When the elitist, neo-Marxist US Ninth Circus, err, Circuit Court of Appeals rejects your requests for retrial and/or reconsideration, you know you're fucked. Williams' case speaks for itself.
Yekhefah
12-09-2005, 06:50 PM
Capital punishment is all about revenge and emotion...
That's not true. I support capital punishment for those who have a strong likelihood of hurting or killing other innocent people - pedophiles, for instance, who have a repeat-offender rate about 100% and WILL offend again if they get the opportunity. It has nothing to do with revenge or emotion, it's about protecting their potential future victims.
If you have a Rottweiler who has been mistreated to the point it is incorrigibly vicious, and the dog mauls someone, you are obligated to have the dog put to sleep. It's not about revenge or hatred for the dog. I personally would feel sorry for the dog; it's not its fault and it can't help being vicious. But it's more important to protect the innocent people it could potentially harm in the future. No hard feelings, puppy, but you have to be put to sleep.
If it were about revenge, we wouldn't use lethal injection. We'd shoot Tookie in the face and leave him to bleed to death like his victims did. Instead, we put him to sleep like a mistreated puppy. That's not vengeance.
Sirona
12-09-2005, 06:55 PM
Jenny - I agree, not everyone in prison is a murderer, nor did I mean to make it sound that way. If I did, my apologies. You have to admit, most of the folks who are in prison are there for a damn good reason, namely the fucked up and broke the law, generally more than once. Yes, the do deserve BASIC human rights but when they have more rights than the average joe walking around free there is something horribly wrong.
CO - You know I love you. :) I think it's safe to say this is one subject we really don't agree on! I just don't see Tookie Williams as deserving of jack shit.
The guy is a murderer who was sentenced to death. End of discussion. I don't care if hhe runs around wiping elderly nun's asses with cotton soft bunny tails, he's still a scumbag.
I guess i'm just frustrated by how easy it is for people to avoid responsibility for thier actions. It pisses me off to no end so i'm sorry if i'm comming off as a cold bitch because i'm not.
madmaxine
12-09-2005, 07:08 PM
Sooooo....how many of you have been at the scene of a murder? I have. It's not fun. (In fact, the one I was at is mentioned in "Club Chat" on Stripperweb for Papa Joe's, in Ceiba, Puerto Rico- October 2004. ) I saw a kid's brains all over the parking lot & a big puddle of blood pouring out of his head. I watched his friends cry and walk around like zombies while they waited for the cops to show up.
Tookie is indirectly responisible for the murder of Joe Cole- Venice Beach Crips. Look it up.
PS My mom & sister & I had a big arguement over Tookie. They were for clemency. I was for execution. I told them, "Hey, ignorance is bliss!"
PPS A bullet would be cheaper.
Melonie
12-09-2005, 07:11 PM
All that said, just because the idiots that hand out Nobel prizes to every leftist celebrity that piques their interest love Mr. Williams, that should have no bearing whatsoever on the equal application of the law under the 14th Amendment. If Mr. Williams is not executed, what is it saying to those sitting on California's death row? What does it say to the rest of us? It says, a la the George Orwell book, Animal Farm, that some prisoners are more equal than others
Nice summation ! And what makes this all the more interesting is to see how things will go down on Tookie Williams' execution, versus the execution of the next scheduled California 'death row' inmate 'Fresno County crime lord and white supremacist' Clarence Ray Allen. Even though Williams killed four people personally and arguably is indirectly responsible for countless murders and other crimes carried out by Crips members, I'll take bets that Williams' death sentence is commuted due to media pressure / celebrity backing etc. On the other hand, Clarence Ray Allen is as good as dead, even though he didn't personally kill the three people whose murders resulted in his own death sentence. But the media has an entirely different 'spin' on the two cases ...
My personal opinion ... both Williams and Allen should have been put to death a couple of decades ago ! Many more people would still be alive today if this had been the case.
reesexc
12-09-2005, 07:17 PM
Sooooo....how many of you have been at the scene of a murder?
I have...more times than I like to remember.Even been a target before...indeed it's not fun at all.
Casual Observer
12-09-2005, 07:30 PM
I think it's safe to say this is one subject we really don't agree on! I just don't see Tookie Williams as deserving of jack shit.
No disagreement--all he is deserving of is our collective contempt and an 8' by 5' concrete cell for the remainder of his days. Killing him accomplishes nothing in the larger equation.
Even though Williams killed four people personally and arguably is indirectly responsible for countless murders and other crimes carried out by Crips members, I'll take bets that Williams' death sentence is commuted due to media pressure / celebrity backing etc. On the other hand, Clarence Ray Allen is as good as dead, even though he didn't personally kill the three people whose murders resulted in his own death sentence.
Perfect example of the inherent inequality of capital punishment.
It has nothing to do with revenge or emotion, it's about protecting their potential future victims.
This is a false argument; using this fallacious line of psuedo-reasoning, anyone ever convicted of a crime could face permanent incarceration, or we could even just start rounding up people we think might commit crimes, capital or otherwise. We're not talking about dogs, we're talking about citizens with civil rights.
If it were about revenge, we wouldn't use lethal injection. We'd shoot Tookie in the face and leave him to bleed to death like his victims did.
No, that would be a violation of the Eighth Amendment (Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.). Again, you're only proving another point of the anti-capital punishment crowd--the desire to inflict pain and suffering in equal proportion to that committed by the criminal. We're supposed to be above that in this country, but in reality, we're about the same as Saudi Arabia or China--only we're a little more sterile and technically savvy when we engage in state-sanctioned murder since most states use sodium pentathol rather than a beheading with a cutlass in public squares (like in Saudi Arabia) or mass public execution in a soccer stadium by firing squad (preferred method in China).
Considering how ineffectual it is at nearly every level when objectively, empirically analyzed, capital punishment isn't about justice, it's about revenge. If you support it for those reasons, then just be honest about it, but pretending that it's an effective means of delivering criminal justice is laughable on its face. What's most disturbing is the ease with which people support state-sanctioned executions while decrying the pervasiveness of government intrusion and intervention in the remainder of their lives.
madmaxine
12-09-2005, 07:36 PM
I admire very much the works of Sister Helen Prejean & other anti-death penalty advocates. BUT can't Tookie's last cautionary act against the evils of murderin' thug life be his execution? IMHO, being locked up is worse than death. I believe in an afterlife. If I was in his shoes I'd take being sent to my Maker over rotting alive in a box. Maybe life is prison is a better punishment than merciful death.
It's all a damn shame. But I get very angry when I think of the last moments of his victims. There are many disenfranchised people of color in California who DO NOT go on PCP-fueled killing sprees because the world is against them. My brother survived incarceration in The California Youth Authority. I have been out on my ass. Never have either of us thought icing people in cold blood was a good way to get what we needed. There are other ways.
Sirona
12-09-2005, 07:56 PM
I guess I look at capital punishment like this...
The world's a better place without the Tookie Williams of the world, in a cell or out.
PaigeDWinter
12-09-2005, 07:57 PM
I am firmly against the death penalty. That's really all I have to say about it.
susie
12-09-2005, 08:15 PM
Do you mean the lifestyle of "gangbangers"?
Gangbanger is such a loose term now that I wouldn't use that.
What I am talking about is not being able to walk down the road wearing my freeking addidas shirt(that I no longer have) w/out someone cat calling hollywood at me(WTF does that mean anyways??).
Now I am obviously quite ignorant on things of that nature, but it just seems to me that it is a shame that some have to live in fear of those that choose to wear rags on their faces and walk around looking for fights with anyone.
Gangs aside though, what he did was murder innocent people. When someone chooses to take an innocent life, they forgoe the right to have their own.
montythegeek
12-09-2005, 08:20 PM
I have no problem with revenge. I also believe Mr. Williams should be dropped from a 10 story window and "all government intrusion and intervention in the remainder of " his life should stop thereafter.
CuriousJ
12-09-2005, 10:13 PM
God-dammit
Deogol
12-09-2005, 11:26 PM
No, that would be a violation of the Eighth Amendment (Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.). Again, you're only proving another point of the anti-capital punishment crowd--the desire to inflict pain and suffering in equal proportion to that committed by the criminal. We're supposed to be above that in this country, but in reality, we're about the same as Saudi Arabia or China--only we're a little more sterile and technically savvy when we engage in state-sanctioned murder since most states use sodium pentathol rather than a beheading with a cutlass in public squares (like in Saudi Arabia) or mass public execution in a soccer stadium by firing squad (preferred method in China).
Actually in Saudi Arabia, if the Qu'ran demands a stoning death, they tie ya to a big cement slab in a hole in the ground. Then they drop another big cement slab on your whole body. Squashed like a bug and instantly entombed. No beheading involved. I tell ya - Arabs come up with some pretty crazy ways to kill people.
Back on point... if we give it to em as bad as they gave it to their victim... then how much better are we than they? Isn't that a whole lot of "Do as we say not as we do?" It all really doesn't make sense at all.
LilSweetVixen
12-10-2005, 12:29 AM
Let's see, he's an insult to: third world suffering that isn't "cool" or "important", hardworking business people in dangerous areas, the Armed Forces, options and opportunities, liberals, starving writers, racial injustices of the past, guys half his size who break up fights, mentors who have been in gangs and risk their lives to warn other kids, Nobel Prize Winners, yup... basically everyone breathing.
And my intuition tells me this guy still thinks gang life is cool after all these years. Compare him to Malcolm X who went out his WAY to let you know that he thought that crap is disgusting and more than reformed, and he was just a petty hustler who got 10 years, with obvious racial undertones.
But I'm still torn. Riots, terror, martyrdom, Lafayette Jones (Tookie Jr, who raped a 13 year old girl at gunpoint) on the loose and lost? A good ol' fashion Tupacalypse, not cute. Plus he could be useful if he dropped the Tookie's Koddled Kiddies act, like if he just threatened to send someone to kill them if they agree to join a gang.
MojoJojo
12-10-2005, 01:53 AM
Not only did he (admittedly) murder...but his murders continue to effect. Number 2 - the CRIPS gang still exists...so in a sense, he continues to murder. Sorry, pal, but it's time to pay the piper. Have some dignity, and die, you mother fucker.
NoCoverLover
12-10-2005, 05:05 AM
FYI:
Tookie was convicted of shooting Albert Owens at the 7-11 in suburban LA. The guy that ratted him out was a Canadian, "Alfred Reginald Coward". In exchange for his testimony he was allowed to serve his sentence in Canada (being a Canadian citizen).
He's currently serving his sentence at Joyceville (a maximum security penitentary in Kingston Ont., two hours eash of Toronto).
The only reason I brought this up is that Mr. Coward has been convicted of purgery, and is in fact (by all accounts) a pathalogical liar. So there is some doubt as to the validity of his statement.
As far as 'Tookie' Williams is concerned, I voted for a 'stay of execution', which now I realize was a mistake. If you shoot a 76 year old woman in the face, you lose!!
I don't like the death penalty at all. I'm glad Canada doesn't have it!! But, in spite of that, as long as the US does, I can't find anyone currently who deserves it more than Mr. Williams.
Arnold, do what you need to do!!
JustJayda
12-10-2005, 06:19 AM
Actually in Saudi Arabia, if the Qu'ran demands a stoning death, they tie ya to a big cement slab in a hole in the ground. Then they drop another big cement slab on your whole body. Squashed like a bug and instantly entombed. No beheading involved. I tell ya - Arabs come up with some pretty crazy ways to kill people.
Back on point... if we give it to em as bad as they gave it to their victim... then how much better are we than they? Isn't that a whole lot of "Do as we say not as we do?" It all really doesn't make sense at all.
ACTUALLY, like CO said, in Saudi Arabia, beheading is alive, no pun intended, and well. There may be many types of public execution. However, I have personally been to "chop-chop square", in 1997. Yes, wearing my Kemar(head covering), and Abaya(clothes covering) (sp?). They push the Americans to the front of the crowd, so we can get a close look at Saudi Arabian justice.
Jay Zeno
12-10-2005, 07:06 AM
Peanut butter however - I'm just wondering who agreed to HEAR that. Most places in the U.S., if a complaint is filed and properly served, and then not answered, the complaint is granted by default judgment. Therefore, even when the most frivolous lawsuit is filed against the state, it will take state's attorney time and energies to herd it to ultimate dismissal.
Deogol
12-10-2005, 09:27 AM
ACTUALLY, like CO said, in Saudi Arabia, beheading is alive, no pun intended, and well. There may be many types of public execution. However, I have personally been to "chop-chop square", in 1997. Yes, wearing my Kemar(head covering), and Abaya(clothes covering) (sp?). They push the Americans to the front of the crowd, so we can get a close look at Saudi Arabian justice.
Oops - you misunderstood what I said - I agree they are still in the chop chop business.
JustJayda
12-10-2005, 09:58 AM
^^^My bad
LilSweetVixen
12-10-2005, 12:44 PM
ACTUALLY, like CO said, in Saudi Arabia, beheading is alive, no pun intended, and well. There may be many types of public execution. However, I have personally been to "chop-chop square", in 1997. Yes, wearing my Kemar(head covering), and Abaya(clothes covering) (sp?). They push the Americans to the front of the crowd, so we can get a close look at Saudi Arabian justice.
How scary is that??
LilSweetVixen
12-10-2005, 01:47 PM
^^ actually after thinking about it, I agree with you. I think it's hypocritical and sets a bad example. I say no clemency, and no death. Stay of execution.
CuriousJ
12-10-2005, 02:22 PM
This kind of represents some of my thoughts further .Also I once served on a Jury of a guy who murdered three people at the time I thought the death penalty served as the best punishment . A few years later(now) as he is going through his last appeal my feelings about the death penalty have changed and I dont approve of it any longer.
Killing him serves only the act of revenge and to me revenge is directly connected to evil.
My opinion is that murder is always wrong. It makes no difference to me if it is gang related shootings such or institutionalized murder such as an execution. In my mind they are equaly immoral .
montythegeek
12-10-2005, 04:44 PM
As much as I would not mind revenge against a murders personally, the idea of the claim that taking the life of a killer has to be called revenge is the tired debating technique of attacking your opponents motives rather than discussing the facts. To the best of my knowledge, no one has suggested that the opponents of the death penalty want to coddle criminals, is soft on crime, or any other pergorative remarks.
Please refrain from such arguments or this thread will become poo-ish and get closed by the nice folks who run this place.
threlayer
12-10-2005, 04:56 PM
Execution would go right along with the de-facto purpose of prison -- punishment.
If the USA ever figures out how to reform RELIABLY this would be a case to consider.
As a productive compromise, continued life would be acceptable to me.
Deogol
12-10-2005, 06:59 PM
As much as I would not mind revenge against a murders personally, the idea of the claim that taking the life of a killer has to be called revenge is the tired debating technique of attacking your opponents motives rather than discussing the facts. To the best of my knowledge, no one has suggested that the opponents of the death penalty want to coddle criminals, is soft on crime, or any other pergorative remarks.
Please refrain from such arguments or this thread will become poo-ish and get closed by the nice folks who run this place.
Mmm... poo ... how I long for thee. }:D
I bet this would have been put into poo to begin with (if it were open.) :-\
TarynJolie
12-10-2005, 07:46 PM
It costs more to execute them than for them to serve life...strange, but true.
Interesting. I was not aware of that but it only further strengthens my thoughts on the subject.
Casual Observer
12-10-2005, 09:05 PM
^ For more info on the economics of capital punishment, go here. (http://www.mindspring.com/~phporter/econ.html)
threlayer
12-10-2005, 09:23 PM
You could say that killing him won't bring the woman back. You could say that killing him will not affect the murder rate; but it's not as if people don't already know what the killing punishment is. You could say that it isn't humane; so many things our government (and others) and other people aren't humane either. You could say that the government should show us an example; but what other examples does the government show us? You could say turn the other cheek, but how many people have tried that and still innocents end up dead. You could say that it's what society and the victim's family wants, and you'd be right. It may not be the best solution, but it's the best low-risk one we have up to now. Still, I hate the idea of yet another way the state kills people, a proportion of whom just may not be guilty. But this guy is.
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 04:39 PM
Bumping this up for all who haven't heard.. Tookie has been denied clemency (Arnold stated that without an apology and owning up to his actions, redemption was not deserved or given.) He is scheduled to die just after midnight (12:01 I believe), Tuesday.
Yekhefah
12-12-2005, 04:43 PM
Everybody, please take a moment to cross your fingers and pray, wish, whatever, that there is no rioting or other violence in Los Angeles tonight. The gangs promised last week that it would happen if Tookie died, but I don't think they have anyone else's support. I'm going STRAIGHT home after work but I really hope there is no retaliatory violence here!
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 04:46 PM
While I support this execution, I fear for the aftermath. Stay safe, Yekhefah & the rest of LA. I'm sure the gangs will make good on their promises, violence is their way.
Yekhefah
12-12-2005, 05:05 PM
Yep. :(
Deogol
12-12-2005, 05:09 PM
Get out the hot dogs!
They will riot for any reason out there.
The results of Tookie's actions:
(WARNING: GRAPHIC GRAPHIC GRAPHIC)
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 05:12 PM
^Very true, Deo. They don't really need a reason, do they?
I just tried to access the website, and it's down. But, on their main page, they have a schedule of events for today and tonight. One of them includes a "Peaceful Protest". I'm not real sure about the peaceful part.
Sirona
12-12-2005, 05:36 PM
Sorry, no sympathy here...
LilSweetVixen
12-12-2005, 05:44 PM
Phone interview with Stanley Tookie Williams
http://www.tavistalks.com/ includes:
1. He maintains he didn't do it
2. He says he was never asked to be debriefed about gang life
3. That Lafayette so-and-so and the other Stanley Williams are not his children
4. That he very briefly Arnold Schwarzenegger a long time ago because they both worked out in Santa Monica
5. Last meal? Minister? Witnesses? for execution.... and more
SthnrnGrl77
12-12-2005, 05:49 PM
i doubt there will be any riots
lovely pictures,btw, i wonder what the save tookie bunch thinks about that. poor baby still had a pacifier in her mouth :( what a monster.
Deogol
12-12-2005, 05:50 PM
Phone interview with Stanley Tookie Williams
includes:
1. He maintains he didn't do it
2. He says he was never asked to be debriefed about gang life
3. That Lafayette so-and-so and the other Stanley Williams are not his children
4. That he very briefly Arnold Schwarzenegger a long time ago because they both worked out in Santa Monica
5. Last meal? Minister? Witnesses? for execution.... and more
Tavis seems to be well on his way to being the next political "Oprah." Building up his empire. His was one of the few BET shows I bothered to watch.
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 05:52 PM
lovely pictures,btw, i wonder what the save tookie bunch thinks about that. poor baby still had a pacifier in her mouth :( what a monster.
Wait.. Where was this? I missed it.
SthnrnGrl77
12-12-2005, 05:55 PM
the link deogal posted. very graphic.. :( but reality.
i'm sure they would have loved to have gotten a simple injection.
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 06:06 PM
Oh Oh! The pacifier comment threw me off. I'm not sure what that is on the victim's face, but the 3 members of that family were adults (ages 76, 63, and 43.) I'm sure he's responsible for plenty of young children's deaths though, due to co-founding the Crips.
Deogol
12-12-2005, 06:14 PM
I think that "pacifier" is an emergency medical tube to aid with breathing. Talk about going to the limits in trying to save her life.
Rhiannon
12-12-2005, 06:30 PM
Ah.. Didn't think of that.
I just read . (PDF File) There is one part that will probably stick with me for a while. It's regarding the first murder...
"During the early morning hours of February 28, 1979, Williams and three others went on a robbery spree. Around 4 am, they entered a 7-11 store where Albert Owens was working by himself. Here, Williams, armed with his pump-action shotgun ordered Owens into a backroom and shot him twice in the back while he lay face-down on the floor. Williams and his accomplices made off with about $120 from the store's cash register. After leaving the 7-11 store, Williams told the others that he had killed Albert Owens because he did not want any witnesses. Later that morning, Williams recounted shooting Albert Owens by saying "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes.
Fucking scumbag.
hannah83
12-12-2005, 06:47 PM
^^^^omg. i'm so upset over reading that and seeing all of those pictures. I'm glad he was denied clemency. and i'm normally not for the death penalty~but i feel this man deserves it.
former_LV_dancer
12-12-2005, 07:02 PM
Sick, freaking sick. Lethal injection is kind. No remorse....he's the lowest form of life. As someone else said, he made his bed.
Stay safe in L.A. I have an uncle who lives in Hollywood. Gonna call him right now and see what's going on.
Madcap
12-12-2005, 07:02 PM
The last time someone was granted clemency in California was in the late 60's. I knew he was toast weeks ago. If the 9th circuit won't even get you off on appeal your history.
madmaxine
12-12-2005, 07:26 PM
It's crap like this that makes me eager to move out of California. A large percentage of San Franciscans voted for clemency for Tookie on the SFGate site, but I'm sure a great many of these people don't live in Oakland also.....why would anyone think Tookie is some sort of moden Robin Hood.....we know his type, he's a low thug.
"No one finds God on Prom Night." Dennis Miller