View Full Version : guys,would you be a regular with a girl that doesn't put out?
SportsWriter2
12-17-2005, 04:31 PM
ISo why would we assume that absent an explicit "go on ahead and put your fingers in my vagina" that that will something I'm just alright with?
The polite dancer invitation is "You can touch me anywhere." :)
Mastridonicus
12-17-2005, 07:47 PM
"You can touch me anywhere." :)
OHHHHH thats what the code is.
I got that at the Odyssey by "Dancer Jobber #1" when paige and I went.
*sigh*
Jenny
12-17-2005, 09:40 PM
See, here's the thing too: if the girl is really, actually, truly okay with, she WILL let you know. If she is not making the offer (and my language was a little bald - Sporty or Jay's scenario is a little more likely) chances are good she, in fact, doesn't want it, doesn't like it, and is feeling pressured, and probably thinks it is the only way she will pay her rent. If you like pressuring unwilling women into sexual act, well, then - well, actually, that would just make you a bad person, and there is nothing I can do about it (and y'all know who you are). But if you are looking for someone who is actually comfortable with it (as in "doesn't mind" not "really likes it"), wait for the offer.
It seems that a lot of people seem to assume that because a girl dances nude for money that she is a prostitute. Well I hate to disappoint some of you, but that's not the case. It's not your fault, many types of people, even hollywood, foster this kind of stereotyping. I live in Chicago where it's much easier to find a hooker than it is to get to my favorite stripclub. I enjoy the club for what it is, and find no reason to why I would want anything else other than the service that it provides.
confession
12-18-2005, 08:22 AM
Jenny, Sorry to hear about the weird guy burning you. I know that some of these guys have all the charm of a doorknob in a public toilet. I do empathize with your situation, and in no way do I find his behavior appropriate.
I understand where you’re coming from and ideally, yes, in average social situations one should always ask permission before encroaching on another’s personal space. But I wasn’t talking about going on a date, walking down the street, or an average social situation— I was talking about strip clubs. The point of strip clubs is to defy the average social situation, at least sexually. In your average social situation, people aren’t selling a sexual service.
A few things make a strip club’s ethical landscape different from a normal one, but the most important from my perspective is the sales transaction between dancer and customer. The dancer is selling a product. That product is sexual. Selling it doesn’t depreciate her personhood or eliminate her rights, but given the context of a strip club, it does make her sexual boundaries blurry to the outside world. She provides a sexual service that can range from provocative gestures causing arousal to something more intimate, like a lapdance. As a seller, she has a responsibility to be truthful to the buyer if asked what the product includes. Anything less than that is fraud. Being indifferent, ambiguous, and misleading when selling a product leads to lawsuits. It’s considered unethical. But in a strip club, consumer rights are limited because of the product’s nature. In this way, it resembles the underground markets where rules are indiscriminate. This means a dancer can lie without legal repercussions, but it’s probably in her best interest (and safety) to be honest. People generally have a less than positive reaction to getting ripped off.
That’s the specific situation I was describing-- not the dancer who says no and gets violated, but the customer who asks for details and is lied to, either directly or in bad faith. The dancer struts up to the customer and says, “Let’s go have some fun.” He looks her up and down and smiles, “How much fun?” She grabs his arm and says “More fun than sitting here.” He asks, “Can I touch your pussy?” She pulls him out of the chair and says, “C’mon, let’s go!” They walk to the VIP, sit on a sofa. When the song starts, she strips down to a G-string, starts to air dance, and he grabs her crotch. She screams, kicks him in the balls, runs to the bouncer. The guy gets thrown out.
In my opinion, it’s her fault as much as his. She’s the seller and he’s the consumer. He asked what he was buying. She declined to disclose the details of her product. Yes, there’s also the responsibility of the customer. Does he ever have the right to touch her inappropriately without her consent? No. Does he have the right if he sought permission but she never gave a definite answer? No. But in the latter scenario, she’s partly responsible. It’s her product. She’s accountable for disclosing its limitations to her consumers. The limitations are relative to the product’s function. No one expects a rice cooker to vacuum the carpets, but they might ask if it will also steam vegetables. Consumer expectations in strip clubs vary from person to person depending upon a variety of factors--his experience with strip clubs, the level of contact he’s accustomed to, his experiences with other sex workers, etc. I don’t understand why that’s so surprising. In an environment that fosters sexual arousal between strangers for a price, it’s an understatement to say confusion seems more likely than clarity.
yoda57us
12-18-2005, 10:22 AM
Trying to apply ethics in a strip club is a slippery slope. I don't ask a dancer what her rules are because A: You will seldom get a straight answer and B: I like adventure. I will buy a dance from a woman who intrigues me and if she continues to intrigue me I will buy more. For me this works with high contact, low contact and no contact dancers.
Playing the "I'm so naive, I thought when she bent over she was sending me a signal to shove my finger into her kitty" card is BS. Just because you are in a strip club doesn't mean all obligations to be polite and considerate to the opposite sex are thrown out the window.
Letting the dancer take the lead is always the best way to go. Once your in a VIP booth her goal is to keep you there. If she's ok with contact of any sort she's not going to be shy about it at that point.
mr_punk
12-18-2005, 12:16 PM
Seriously - I can see a difference between implied consent in a strip club and a more "normal" situation.obviously, what happens in the civilian world isn't always applicable in the sc.
See, here's the thing too: if the girl is really, actually, truly okay with, she WILL let you know.thanks for clearing that up for us. it's kinda hard for us to tell the difference between a stripper scoffing and rolling her eyeballs vs putting her nipples directly on our lips.
If she is not making the offer (and my language was a little bald - Sporty or Jay's scenario is a little more likely) chances are good she, in fact, doesn't want it, doesn't like it, and is feeling pressured, and probably thinks it is the only way she will pay her rent. If you like pressuring unwilling women into sexual act, well, then - well, actually, that would just make you a bad person, and there is nothing I can do about it (and y'all know who you are). But if you are looking for someone who is actually comfortable with it (as in "doesn't mind" not "really likes it"), wait for the offer.LOL...it's called CS. you know, the flip side of SS. ie: dancers will promise customers the world to get him into the VIP because rent is due. however, no one feels sorry for the guy who succumbs to that hustle. no one wrings their hands over the fact that he may feel like a complete sucker afterwards. we would all say caveat emptor is the watchword in a sc. so, if some customer waves his money under the nose of a stripper who is 2 months behind in her rent and he suggests that all she has to do is______. oh well, sauce for the goose.
But in a strip club, consumer rights are limited because of the product’s nature. In this way, it resembles the underground markets where rules are indiscriminate. This means a dancer can lie without legal repercussions, but it’s probably in her best interest (and safety) to be honest. People generally have a less than positive reaction to getting ripped off.sure, overpromising and underdelivering is an art form in a sc. ultimately, it's in the customer's hands to protect not only his wallet, but his own interests as well.
Jenny
12-18-2005, 12:52 PM
LOL...it's called CS. you know, the flip side of SS. ie: dancers will promise customers the world to get him into the VIP because rent is due. however, no one feels sorry for the guy who succumbs to that hustle. no one wrings their hands over the fact that he may feel like a complete sucker afterwards. we would all say caveat emptor is the watchword in a sc. so, if some customer waves his money under the nose of a stripper who is 2 months behind in her rent and he suggests that all she has to do is______. oh well, sauce for the goose.
Okay - first: Like I said. If you enjoy pressuring unwilling women into sexual acts there is nothing I can do about your karma. I cannot stop you from doing it - I just don't happen to think it makes you a good person.
Second - I don't understand your customer analogy. I mean, I don't feel sorry for a customer who buys a VIP. I would feel sorry for a customer who forked out $300-$900 for the VIP and then the stripper spends 1/2 the time outside the room, or sits silently staring at the wall, or if she had directly promised certain contact that she didn't deliver. And, in most establishments I've worked in, that customer gets his money back if he complains. Of course, most guys who spend money on me are not sorry they did it afterwards. They don't feel like suckers afterwards, and I actually like my customers to feel like the money they spend is well spent (and I do all this (mostly) without fluid exchange). I have said before that I do not think it is nice or ethical to lie to customers.
Jenny
12-18-2005, 01:40 PM
Jenny, Sorry to hear about the weird guy burning you. I know that some of these guys have all the charm of a doorknob in a public toilet. I do empathize with your situation, and in no way do I find his behavior appropriate.
Yeah - everyone feel sorry for me now. My life is so sad. I'm kidding - I do appreciate the flaws in that analogy, and I do see the difference between a guy grabbing my crotch and stubbing out cigarettes on my back. If nothing else, I would far, far rather have my crotch grabbed (if I were in the rather unlikely situation of having to choose between those two things)
I understand where you’re coming from and ideally, yes, in average social situations one should always ask permission before encroaching on another’s personal space. But I wasn’t talking about going on a date, walking down the street, or an average social situation— I was talking about strip clubs. The point of strip clubs is to defy the average social situation, at least sexually. In your average social situation, people aren’t selling a sexual service.
Yes, indeed - this does make a difference. However, I think what I was trying to say, which perhaps I didn't say clearly enough, was why not assume that, absent explicit permission, what is on offer is the "standard lap dance" (and yes, I realize that there are regional differences, so I am assuming, for the pupose of this paragraph that we are considering men and women who both know the standard, local rules) and that anything outside of that requires explicit permission or invitation?
A few things make a strip club’s ethical landscape different from a normal one, but the most important from my perspective is the sales transaction between dancer and customer. The dancer is selling a product.
The dancer is selling a service. But I agree - who was it who posted the thread on "special ethical arenas"?
That product is sexual. Selling it doesn’t depreciate her personhood or eliminate her rights, but given the context of a strip club, it does make her sexual boundaries blurry to the outside world. She provides a sexual service that can range from provocative gestures causing arousal to something more intimate, like a lapdance. As a seller, she has a responsibility to be truthful to the buyer if asked what the product includes. Anything less than that is fraud. Being indifferent, ambiguous, and misleading when selling a product leads to lawsuits.
Hmm. Okay - I don't think many courts are going to hear a suit over a $20.00 lapdance. Waste of judicial resources. But, incidentally - in no way is refusing to answer a question a lie. It may not, in another environment, be an effective technique - like if I were buying pants and asked if I could return them and the salesperson said "Just buy them, okay?" I would probably say no, or insist on an answer. But the answer that she gives (just buy them) is not really implying "yes."
Indeed, the fact that the customer asked in the first place shows that he is aware that this is not standard, or not necessarily included, and one might think that the fact that he bought without any agreement on the matter shows the opposite - that he could reasonably understand that he DIDN'T have permission. But we started with remedies, and haven't got to agreement yet, so take that with a grain of salt.
It’s considered unethical. But in a strip club, consumer rights are limited because of the product’s nature.
See I think this is interesting. In most clubs I've worked at the customers CAN get back their money. They have someone to complain to, etc, if the girl actually lies. On the other hand, there is nothing we can do to force them to pay us, and they refuse to pay in advance (there has been another thread here). There is actually a lot of trust that goes into this, as unlikely as it sounds, and it is mostly on our end.
I agree that girls should not directly lie. On the other hand, if the girl has explicitly said "Yes, you can touch my pussy" that would probably as invitation or agreement. If she hasn't said this, she hasn't. Now, why assume that the dancer is putting EVERYTHING on the table, rather than only that which is standardly handed out? Like we COULD say that "in absence of other circumstances (explicit refusal, for example) Dancers imply consent to A, B and C when they agree to a lapdance" (A, B and C representing the standard lapdance behaviour) rather than "Absent specific refusal, dancer accede to all sexual conduct when they agree to a lapdance." This very adequately looks after the consumers rights, while maintaining some semblance of respect for the fact that is a woman's body, and freedom of person that we contracting out here.
Incidentally - I would never do what you describe largely because it really wouldn't work. I mean, the guys I meet are either A) looking for standard lapdance, and wouldn't ASK if they could touch my pussy B) looking for someone who they can take home (either paid or free) or C) would respond with a "No, really, can I touch your pussy?" if I responded with a "Let's just go already" to that question. I cannot imagine a customer who is bald enough to say "Can I eat your pussy" who would be all "Score!" with that kind of evasion. I think you might be crediting the customer with some excessive naivete here.
That’s the specific situation I was describing-- not the dancer who says no and gets violated, but the customer who asks for details and is lied to, either directly or in bad faith. The dancer struts up to the customer and says, “Let’s go have some fun.” He looks her up and down and smiles, “How much fun?” She grabs his arm and says “More fun than sitting here.” He asks, “Can I touch your pussy?” She pulls him out of the chair and says, “C’mon, let’s go!”
But this is not lying. This, in another field, would be excessively bad salesmanship and customer service, but I think that is why this particular transaction might not translate too well.
They walk to the VIP, sit on a sofa. When the song starts, she strips down to a G-string, starts to air dance, and he grabs her crotch. She screams, kicks him in the balls, runs to the bouncer. The guy gets thrown out.
Well, this goes back to local standards. If every other girl in the room is doing an airdance, she has every reason not to expect to be grabbed. I've personally never had bouncers handle that kind of situation for me - the only time I involve bar security is when the customer is being verbally abusive (Brenton! He's being MEAN to me! Can you please make him stop?) or when they are being full out physically abusive - which has happened like twice (and would be accompanied by a blood curdling scream, usually some tears and followed by a lot of sympathy drinks, the first of which was from the management to distract me from gathering up my My Little Pony lunchbox o'dancer supplies and running home: "Here, sweetie, drink this: you'll feel better") I would at least try a "Please don't grab my crotch" before getting the guy (and his money) thrown out.
In my opinion, it’s her fault as much as his. She’s the seller and he’s the consumer. He asked what he was buying. She declined to disclose the details of her product. Yes, there’s also the responsibility of the customer. Does he ever have the right to touch her inappropriately without her consent? No.
But see here's the thing - logically, if he DOESN'T have a right to touch her without permission, the onus is on him to get permission, not on her to explicitly refuse. If we are saying that he sort of has a right, absent explicit refusal, then clearly he does have some right.
The limitations are relative to the product’s function. No one expects a rice cooker to vacuum the carpets, but they might ask if it will also steam vegetables.
Indeed. But (and this is, as I said, one of those scenarios that doesn't translate too well) if the salesperson simply declined to answer and says simply "Just buy it already" that is not a guarantee. If you hired a nanny and asked if she also cleaned (which is outside the purview of most nannies) and she scoffed at you... well, you probably wouldn't hire her, because that is really impolite (again, those situations that don't translate too well) but there is no way you would interpret that to mean "Of course I do" - nor would hire her, and then demand that she do the dishes, grab her hands and force them into the soapy water, screaming out "YOU NEVER SAID NO!!!" If she replied to that question saying significantly "I will take excellent care of your child" would you assume that meant "Yes, I will do your dishes" or "No, I will perform the usual job of nannies, which is childcare"? Or, would you do the bright and intelligent thing and say "Well, does that mean Yes or No?"
Consumer expectations in strip clubs vary from person to person depending upon a variety of factors--his experience with strip clubs, the level of contact he’s accustomed to, his experiences with other sex workers, etc. I don’t understand why that’s so surprising. In an environment that fosters sexual arousal between strangers for a price, it’s an understatement to say confusion seems more likely than clarity.
See, here's the thing. I don't think that this generally happens over confusion. I don't think the customers are confused. I think they are trying to get the most that they can. I think they assume (correctly) that my physical integrity is compromised, and that means to them, that whatever they can grab is theirs (and that is the part that is incorrect). This is not confusion. This is (drumroll) dehumanization.
mr_punk
12-18-2005, 10:14 PM
Okay - first: Like I said. If you enjoy pressuring unwilling women into sexual acts there is nothing I can do about your karma. I cannot stop you from doing it - I just don't happen to think it makes you a good person.true, he might get reincarnated as a fly in a air dance club in the next life. seriously, save the lectures for sunday school, sister. there is no rule book that says that customers are prohibited from the act and strippers are allowed to promise customers the world to get into the VIP. my point is that if either party is going to step into the ring. perhaps, it's not a good idea to expect your opponent to drop his hands and stick out his chin. sorry, no one has to take a dive for a stripper because she thinks they should.
Of course, most guys who spend money on me are not sorry they did it afterwards.well, it's not specifically about you, jenny. however, don't act as if you don't know that strippers do commit such acts. it does happens. now, whether you agree or disagree is your own business. however, that doesn't mitigate the fact that it is acceptable behavior in your industry.
Jenny
12-19-2005, 09:27 AM
Okay. I don't know where I'm losing you. I am one of those people that think that ethical behaviour belongs everywhere, not just Sunday school. What ethics MEAN may be somewhat changable or relative but they don't just disappear. I don't happen to think that stepping into a strip club makes it okay for women to steal or lie, or for men to sexually assault or lie. (See - lie in this context has meaning. I don't think a guy is "lying" in a culpable way if he says he's single when he's not or says that he has a different job than he has because these are not material lies. A culpable lie would be "in 20 minutes I will buy 8 dances" when he knows perfectly well he isn't going to. A dancer is not culpable if she says she is a nanny during the day because it is not material. She is culpable if she says "You can touch me anywhere" and doesn't mean it, extracts the cost of the VIP and then doesn't deliver - see? Relative lies.) What is so wrong or onerous about seeking out women who WANT to do this behavioiur rather than exerting pressure on those who don't? Why is this such an ethical burden?
well, it's not specifically about you, jenny. however, don't act as if you don't know that strippers do commit such acts. it does happens. now, whether you agree or disagree is your own business. however, that doesn't mitigate the fact that it is acceptable behavior in your industry.
Don't be silly. Of course it is. You know that dancers are self absorbed. In any case, who would it be about then? I don't get your point here either. Some dancers are unethical. So what? Some men commit violent rape - I don't think that would justify me running around castrating men at random and then saying "But you KNOW some men rape women. You KNOW it happens. Don't pretend that you don't know it happens." That would make me psychotic. And I don't think that unethical behaviour is acceptable in my industry, and more than in any other. There are some people who are not nice. You characterize them as the norm rather than the exception, why? You've made it clear that you don't give dancers the opportunity to take advantage of you, so it's not from personal experience. It's just something that you like to do for fun, and because it justifies your own behaviour. In my opinion that is kind of cheap. It would be like me pickpocketing my customers and saying that they would screw me over given the chance, when the sensible thing for me to do would be just NOT get screwed over in the first place. And my point when I mentioned that the majority of my customers are not sorry they spent the money is that guys will spend money and then not feel bad about it. You characterize every encounter in which a guy spends a lot of money and/or the guy doesn't get blown by the dancer as some kind of rip off that is the direct result of some kind of deception by the dancer or club. This is just not the case. Dancers are not implicitly culpable, which is, I think at bottom of a lot of your assumptions.
As I said, I cannot make everyone behave ethically, let alone nicely, and I'm not responsible for your karma. But arguing that some stripper somewhere has misreprented her services and that it is therefore okay for you to exert pressure or touch without asking, or whatever nasty things you guys like to to do to women is really weak, really cheap and really fallacious. I mean, I think the least you wouuld have to do under the "she deserves it" rationale would be to show that she, specifically, deserves it, and it's not just because some other girl somewhere might have done something wrong.
mortalman
12-19-2005, 10:28 AM
So, your contention is that by not explicitly forbidding this contact in advance that she is implicitly agreeing to it? That the other party should not have to have explicit permission to touch her, but should just be able to presume complete possession of her person unless warned in advance? I was riding the subway the other day and someone grabbed my ass, and squeezed, hard enough to be viably called a pinch, but like a full hand pinch, you know? I couldn't tell who it was (it was very crowded) so I turned to the general vicinity and said "What the hell do you think you're doing? Do not touch me" Now I shall outline two scenarios:
A person said "Oh, sorry. You never said that I couldn't grab you, so I thought it was okay. You didn't, after all, explicitly define your boundaries. C'mon people: am I right?" Then a nearby person said "Well. He does have a point. If you don't want people intimately touching you, you can't just assume that they ought to wait for an invitation. On the contrary, you need to issue an express "dis-invitation" for all those you don't want touching you." Then a teenager standing nearby said, "Really. Your jeans are really tight. And it's winter, but your coat isn't covering your ass. If you walk around like that, you realize that guys will want to grab your ass; you are in fact encouraging them to grab your ass. You can't really be that dismayed when they do." There was, at this point, a general murmur of agreement. So I said, "Well, gosh. I never realized that these jeans and this coat were so provocative as to lay waste to our entire concept of personal freedom. I now realize that in the future, if I choose to wear these jeans, I must carry a sign that says "Please do not intentionally touch me unless I specifically and expressly invite or request such contact." Underneath I shall have a proviso in smaller print that allows for minor, incidental contact necessary for brushing past people on stairwells and such."
Or
There was random shuffling and nobody copped to it, because the person (who I presumed was male) knew damn well that he had done something wrong; that my lack of "disinvitation" did not equal "invitation" and that "invitation" is generally, in these situations, what is required.
However, If I was on a subway or a bus or in a grocery store or lets say strip club private dance area and a woman is grinding her ass on my hard on, I might be inclined to grab and squeeze some areas that would be off limits under more normal circumstances. I don't think your analogy is correct in relation to a strip club environment.
In the club, keeping in mind the differing rules from area to area, if I touch a dancer and she tells me not to do that or "implies" it by moving my hands somewhere else, then I do stop and respect her boundries. Apparently some guys don't.
mortalman
12-19-2005, 10:34 AM
pretty plain and simple question huh?....but for those who don't understand!
if you were a regular at a club and had gotten a private vip dance with one of the hottest women there and didn't get any,would you continue to get vip's with her knowing that your not??
Yes an no.
I have, but ultimately lost interest and moved on.
mr_punk
12-19-2005, 02:12 PM
Okay. I don't know where I'm losing you. I am one of those people that think that ethical behaviour belongs everywhere, not just Sunday school.oh no, i didn't say the behavior was unethical. quite the opposite, it's ethical in a sc. like i said, it's acceptable behavior within your industry. if i thought otherwise, i would agree with PLs when they post about a stripper who lied and tricked him. in any other industry, he might have a very good point. however, in a sc. it doesn't exactly work like other industries. my point is that if your industry wants to play under those rules. hey, it's no skin off my nose. however, that means everybody (customers and strippers alike) gets to play under those rules. IMO, you can't point and say "no fair" when it's to your disadavantage. otherwise, it's a situation that's basically," strippers can shovel out the SS with impunity, but they really can't take the the CS. so, don't shovel it at them.".
I mean, I think the least you wouuld have to do under the "she deserves it" rationale would be to show that she, specifically, deserves it, and it's not just because some other girl somewhere might have done something wrong.unlike other customers, i don't take strippers to task for their method of hustling money out of customers. quite the opposite, i'll take the PL to task for not knowing things work. so, this idea of my statement being seen as some sort of "she deserves it" argument would only makes sense. if i thought strippers were being unethical in the first place.
confession
12-19-2005, 10:11 PM
Yes, indeed - this does make a difference. However, I think what I was trying to say, which perhaps I didn't say clearly enough, was why not assume that, absent explicit permission, what is on offer is the "standard lap dance" (and yes, I realize that there are regional differences, so I am assuming, for the pupose of this paragraph that we are considering men and women who both know the standard, local rules) and that anything outside of that requires explicit permission or invitation?
If the customer knows the rules, then yes--invitation or permission. I’ve worked in Mr. Roger‘s “neighborhood” strip clubs and I didn’t have much of a problem with the Mr. McFeelys in comparison to metropolitan areas that are knee-deep in football stadiums and convention centers and there’s more turnover. There’s a few locals, of course, but you’re getting a steady flow who are unfamiliar with the rules. And of course, they’re always trying to get more pussy for their peso.
The dancer is selling a service. But I agree - who was it who posted the thread on "special ethical arenas"?
No idea. I’m relatively new.
But, incidentally - in no way is refusing to answer a question a lie.
It’s not a lie, it’s bad faith. In my example (which is admittedly faulty, inflated, and dashed off) the woman chooses to avoid a decision, to pretend the customer’s intention doesn’t exist or have any significance in terms of cause and effect and possible outcomes. Or she’s completely aware of the risk and avoiding her freedom to say no. Of course, it could be argued that she just has bad judgment or has been sniffing too much rubber cement. She’d have to be conscious of her avoidance, or have an intent to deceive him to be acting in bad faith. If she’s acting in bad faith (or just blatantly lying) than my opinion remains the same--she’s partly responsible. We’re all free agents. Avoidance is when one chooses to bobble along like a cork in someone else’s stream instead of acting when faced with a decision.
But see here's the thing - logically, if he DOESN'T have a right to touch her without permission, the onus is on him to get permission, not on her to explicitly refuse. If we are saying that he sort of has a right, absent explicit refusal, then clearly he does have some right.
No, he doesn’t. He’s acting in bad faith too. But in this case, he’s deceiving himself of the possible consequences for not getting her explicit consent. He’s also guilty of violating her. So, if I had to get out my moral measuring stick, I’d slap his wrist five times and hers twice. I assume she has freewil. She chose to put herself in a situation that could have been avoided by answering the question. For that much, she is responsible. If she’d said no, she wouldn’t be responsible at all.
See, here's the thing. I don't think that this generally happens over confusion. I don't think the customers are confused. I think they are trying to get the most that they can. I think they assume (correctly) that my physical integrity is compromised, and that means to them, that whatever they can grab is theirs (and that is the part that is incorrect). This is not confusion. This is (drumroll) dehumanization.
I agree that they’re out for themselves a lot of the time. But that should be an incentive to protect oneself and be assertive, not an excuse to avoid decisions, play passive, victim, self-deceiver, or pretend the risk doesn’t exist.
But hey, I respectfully agree to disagree with you on certain points concerning this issue. After all, I’m a free agent.
Jenny
12-20-2005, 07:24 PM
oh no, i didn't say the behavior was unethical. quite the opposite, it's ethical in a sc. like i said, it's acceptable behavior within your industry. if i thought otherwise, i would agree with PLs when they post about a stripper who lied and tricked him. in any other industry, he might have a very good point. however, in a sc. it doesn't exactly work like other industries. my point is that if your industry wants to play under those rules. hey, it's no skin off my nose. however, that means everybody (customers and strippers alike) gets to play under those rules. IMO, you can't point and say "no fair" when it's to your disadavantage. otherwise, it's a situation that's basically," strippers can shovel out the SS with impunity, but they really can't take the the CS. so, don't shovel it at them."Okay. Again. Don't know where I'm losing you. Nobody (least of all me) is suggesting that there should be "different rules" (in the sense in which we are speaking right now). I'm saying that both parties should behave ethically, and in my great and varied experience, I would say about 20% of strippers (at a very generous estimate) lie to customers (materially - like pay me $500 now and I'll meet you in a hotel after work). Strippers have a way, way softer sell than your average retail person (in another thread there is some schmuk bitching because a pretty girl talked to him for 54 seconds while he was waiting on someone else, then told him to have a nice time and went away). This is not the way people act when the sell cars or clothes or cookware. Seriously - I have a friend to manages a clothing store. The first time she came to a bar she was shocked at how easily we took a no, at how non-aggressive we were. She sells evening dresses and business suits. Dancers might tell you that you are good looking when you are not; they might pretend that you are interesting when you are not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you do not: this is Stripper Shit. Customer Shit (as we've defined it here) is sexually harassing unwilling women. These things are not equivalent. If this is seriously what we are contending, the problem is not with my industry, it's with my customers.
unlike other customers, i don't take strippers to task for their method of hustling money out of customers. quite the opposite, i'll take the PL to task for not knowing things work. so, this idea of my statement being seen as some sort of "she deserves it" argument would only makes sense. if i thought strippers were being unethical in the first place.
Well your constant refrain of "well strippers do this, strippers do that, so it's okay" certainly has a ring of "she deserves it."
SportsWriter2
12-20-2005, 08:43 PM
Dancers might tell you that you are good looking when you are not; they might pretend that you are interesting when you are not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you do not: this is Stripper Shit. Customer Shit (as we've defined it here) is sexually harassing unwilling women. These things are not equivalent.
Customers might tell you that you're a 10 when youre an 7.8; they might pretend that you are interesting when you're not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you're simply the best available dancer on an off night: this is Customer Shit. I never thought of it as sexually harassing, because what would that get you?
evan_essence
12-25-2005, 06:13 AM
"Yeah, I'm going to spell out everything I'll allow when you ask the question. How stupid do you think I am, officer?"
No one has brought up how the "Stripper, may I?" question is a Catch-22 for dancers. It's the gray nature of what might get me in trouble with management or the law that primarily drives my unwillingness to answer that question with specifics. I don't like to waste my time on a customer who expects more than I'm planning to offer, but there's no Match.com survey filled out ahead of time. If I give an answer that's within legal parameters, even if I'm willing to go further, then we both lose out on the transaction. If I answer it with the truth and you're a cop, I've provided a nice audio clip for the prosecution to use against me. If you're not a cop, it's still going to get back to management eventually that I'm vocally promising something beyond official club policy.
In addition, how far I go may be directly dependent on how well you behave and how closely we're being watched at that specific moment. If I see you're going to let me lead, then I may lead you further than if you try to go pioneering on your own, simply because I can stay in control of my comfort level and my risk when I lead and you respect that (oops, I mean tolerate that). But hey, if the control-freak bouncer is lurking about, I'm toning it down. Sorry I don't give a thesis paper response outlining all these factors when I'm asked. If I did, the answer would still be tantamount to saying "It all depends," which wouldn't satisfy you any more than a scoff and eye roll. Not answering directly can be maliciously deceptive or it can be a simple matter of self-preservation.
-Ev
mr_punk
12-28-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm saying that both parties should behave ethically, and in my great and varied experience, I would say about 20% of strippers (at a very generous estimate) lie to customers (materially - like pay me $500 now and I'll meet you in a hotel after work).ok, so you consider 20% of the strippers you've worked with to be unethical. well, if you say so, but as they say in your biz, "the more you tip. the better it gets." ...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.
Dancers might tell you that you are good looking when you are not; they might pretend that you are interesting when you are not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you do not: this is Stripper Shit.actually, SS is composed of a whole lot more. so, while techniques may vary. (ie: making goo-goo eyes is just as much SS as a stripper finishing up a very lame dance by putting her knee in a customer's crotch and softly whispering, "and the next dance will be better than the last"...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). ultimately, the whole point of SS is to get the customer to spit out $20 like an ATM....period.
Customer Shit (as we've defined it here) is sexually harassing unwilling women. These things are not equivalent. If this is seriously what we are contending, the problem is not with my industry, it's with my customers.sexual harassment in a sc? LOL...like objectification, isn't that part of the job? so, let me see if i have this straight. take one financially irresponsible stripper who finds herself caught in the perfect storm. add one customer with a tiproll. now, maybe she tells him a holiday SOB story. Or perhaps she asks for a "loan". Or maybe she's doing something out of the ordinary like feeding, fingering, or stick shifting. you know, increasing her mileage to keep customers in their seat longer. after all, business is bad, rent is due and she needs to buy that new xbox and drum kit for the guys at beaver bong. now, since the stripper didn't make the offer. that's sexual harassment in your book? which begs another question: do you buy your instant cop-outs in bulk at costo?
Well your constant refrain of "well strippers do this, strippers do that, so it's okay" certainly has a ring of "she deserves it."oh, i'm sure it does. i'm sure most people would get that impression after you tell them they can't put a horseshoe in their glove.
"Yeah, I'm going to spell out everything I'll allow when you ask the question. How stupid do you think I am, officer?"yeah, that's all fine and well when you're working. frankly, i don't care if the reasons for giving ambiguous, vague and evasive responses is for hustling purposes or to protect themselves from LE. however, it tickles me to no end. when strippers come in here and play dumb as if have no idea what they're doing or that nobody else knows what they're up to, when they're pulling that stunt.
No one has brought up how the "Stripper, may I?" question is a Catch-22 for dancers.which is why i don't even bother asking in some instances. you'll just get more SS. hell, i've even had strippers tell me upfront and without prompting that they don't do anything illegal and it turns out that isn't the case at all. but hey, it's like they tell me while fumbling with the fly of my pants, "i really don't do this with my customers."....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.
Jenny
12-29-2005, 12:02 AM
ok, so you consider 20% of the strippers you've worked with to be unethical. well, if you say so, but as they say in your biz, "the more you tip. the better it gets." ...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.
Well - one could think that it means "the more you tip the better it gets" and not "one more dollar and you can stick it anywhere" - is it only me that sees a distinction?
actually, SS is composed of a whole lot more. so, while techniques may vary. (ie: making goo-goo eyes is just as much SS as a stripper finishing up a very lame dance by putting her knee in a customer's crotch and softly whispering, "and the next dance will be better than the last"...whatever the hell that's supposed to mean). ultimately, the whole point of SS is to get the customer to spit out $20 like an ATM....period.
Um. I don't understand. Are you saying that stripper shit is acting like the customer is handsome, interesting and nice FOR THE PURPOSE of getting him to spend money? You're objecting because I left out the part where the dancer is trying to sell dances? Seriously? I thought that was a given. Very well: Dancers might tell you that you are good looking when you are not; they might pretend that you are interesting when you are not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you do not in order to get you buy dances: this is Stripper Shit.
sexual harassment in a sc? isn't that part of the job?
Hmmm. No. Not at all, not even a little bit. You might say that I'm there to be eye candy, to keep the customers company, blah, blah, blah or to sexually stimulate the customers. I am not there to be harassed or assaulted. At all. Ever. If I wanted to make money being sexually harassed and assaulted I'd work at a Hooters.
I'm kidding - but really. If I wanted to be assaulted and harassed for money I could probably find a more lucrative environment. Not a Hooters. But some kind of dungeon maybe?
so, let me see if i have this straight. take one financially irresponsible stripper who finds herself caught in the perfect storm. add one customer with a tiproll. now, maybe she tells him a holiday SOB story. Or perhaps she asks for a "loan". Or maybe she's doing something out of the ordinary like feeding, fingering, or stick shifting. you know, increasing her mileage to keep customers in their seat longer. after all, business is bad, rent is due and she needs to buy that new xbox and drum kit for the guys at beaver bong. now, since the stripper didn't make the offer. that's sexual harassment in your book? which begs another question: do you buy your instant cop-outs in bulk at costo?
Hmm. I'm sorry. If we are so sure the stripper in fact doesn't mind, and that she is this anxious to keep you in your seat, why not allow her to make the offer? Like if the strippers WANTS to be fingered in keep you in your seat, why can we not rely on her initiative here? We hear so many stories here about strippers initiating all of this sex; the ones who want to do it don't seem to be shy. So one might assume that the shy ones DON'T. So what is the problem with leaving them alone? I don't understand the resistance in this thread, actually. To me this seems so simple: do not assume consent to shove your fingers into a woman's vagina; instead ensure that consent is actual and extant. Do not prey on reluctant women; instead find women who are not reluctant. How is this so onerous exactly? Like, do guys really find it THAT hard not to be despicable people?
miabella
12-29-2005, 12:25 AM
i have noticed it's a common theme for sexworkers among some of the clients, that if you are doing x for money, OF COURSE you should expect to do or be hit up for y for more/less/the same money. like, whores should OF COURSE be forced to do anal when they say they do not, strippers should OF COURSE be fingered when they don't wish to be, and so forth. it's the same mindset that says a prostitute can't be raped, because since she agrees with some guys to sex for money, she is implicitly consenting to sex with ANY GUY FOR MONEY OR NOT.
it's a rapist's view of the world, or one that sees service workers as less than human because their services have a sexual/sensual component. take your pick.
yoda57us
12-29-2005, 06:39 AM
i have noticed it's a common theme for sexworkers among some of the clients, that if you are doing x for money, OF COURSE you should expect to do or be hit up for y for more/less/the same money.
I read this crap all the time on other boards(even here when the trolls come out) and hear it from guys in the clubs. "Every girl has her price". It's BS. It's a rallying call for every jerk who wants to justify fingering a dancer when she turns her back on you and bends over or every moron who buys one dance and then asks you how much to go back to his hotel.
evan_essence
12-29-2005, 08:31 AM
yeah, that's all fine and well when you're working. frankly, i don't care if the reasons for giving ambiguous, vague and evasive responses is for hustling purposes or to protect themselves from LE. however, it tickles me to no end. when strippers come in here and play dumb as if have no idea what they're doing or that nobody else knows what they're up to, when they're pulling that stunt.Well, I'd contend most of us know exactly what we're doing, and I don't recall a rash of posters who've played dumb about it. I suspect many of the customers know exactly what we're doing and what they're doing. Most of them know full well that lack of an answer does not constitute consent, so why do they behave otherwise? Simple. Because they want to do what they want to do without consent, come hell or high water, so they make up a sophist argument to justify what they want to do. We rationally explain the weakness of the argument and still get flak because, again, people who don't want to stop it justify their behavior through rationalization that cannot be dispelled.
I'd prefer a customer, at least in this forum, be honest and admit his attitude is "F*** you Evan, I'm testing you whether you give me consent or not because I know I can get away with it. That's how I find the extras girl who doesn't show it fast enough, and how I can pressure a borderline girl into heading south of the border."
but hey, it's like they tell me while fumbling with the fly of my pants, "i really don't do this with my customers."....whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.You honestly don't understand the marketing appeal of this? Perhaps you're one of those enlightened males who don't mind his women having performed the same sexual act with the previous dozen customers. That's very cool if you are so progressive. For that matter, it would be fine if you were simply one of the naive ones who doesn't think too hard about multiple fluid exchanges. Either way, I understand you don't need the benefits derived from such a fictional statement. Remember, however, that some other customers are not as open minded as you and need some illusion to cling to, thus creating the PR value for such fiction.
-Ev
mr_punk
12-29-2005, 03:47 PM
Well - one could think that it means "the more you tip the better it gets" and not "one more dollar and you can stick it anywhere" - is it only me that sees a distinction?very good, you noticed the ambiguity of the statement and you filled in the blanks. strange, how you didn't consider that the statement could also be absolutely meaningless. ie: the dance is exactly the same lame dance as before you give the dancer a tip. plenty of PLs have thrown good money after bad believing that line.
You're objecting because I left out the part where the dancer is trying to sell dances? Seriously? I thought that was a given.i know. i thought i made that clear. however, i notice you have this habit of limiting SS to your own ethical measuring stick. every stripper doesn't exactly behave the same way you do, jenny. some them of act far, far differently and that doesn't make it any less SS because you don't do it.
Um. I don't understand. Are you saying that stripper shit is acting like the customer is handsome, interesting and nice FOR THE PURPOSE of getting him to spend money? You're objecting because I left out the part where the dancer is trying to sell dances? Seriously? I thought that was a given. Very well: Dancers might tell you that you are good looking when you are not; they might pretend that you are interesting when you are not; they might pretend that you sexually stimulate them when you do not in order to get you buy dances: this is Stripper Shit.you don't understand? you're not playing dumb with me, are you? anyway, don't you find this strange. i mean, i could have sworn i mentioned something about "next dance being better than the last" being just as much SS. yet, there's nary a mention by you in your rephrasing. well, let me clear it up for you. a stripper acting that a customer is handsome, interesting and nice to sale a dance isn't the same as a stripper being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive to close the sale on a dance. saying ,"the next dance is better than the last" is none of the things that you mentioned and just because a stripper says it, doesn't mean it's true. don't get me wrong, it's all SS and the end goal is still the same. however, there are differences.
Hmm. I'm sorry. If we are so sure the stripper in fact doesn't mind, and that she is this anxious to keep you in your seat, why not allow her to make the offer? Like if the strippers WANTS to be fingered in keep you in your seat, why can we not rely on her initiative here?well, aren't we saying the same thing? i said the stripper increased the mileage. she's already getting fingered. i just want to know if you think it indicates unwillingness on her part because she didn't verbally say, "want a BJ"? or "want to finger my pussy?" and pull out a drop down menu.
mr_punk
12-29-2005, 04:02 PM
Well, I'd contend most of us know exactly what we're doing, and I don't recall a rash of posters who've played dumb about it. I suspect many of the customers know exactly what we're doing and what they're doing.if that's the case. you'd also have to acknowledge there's an element of responsibility on both sides. no, the customer's actions does not absolve him if the stripper is being ambiguous, vague, or evasive to sell a VIP. however, because the stipper knows that she is being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive. furthermore, she knows that she's leaving the customer to fill in the blanks. at some point in time, the customer is going to fill in the blanks in a manner that isn't to her liking. like i said, that doesn't absolve him. however, it doesn't absolve the stripper either. no one hands are completely clean here. no one is the innocent party. so, she can't throw up her hands and say, "duh...i don't know what happened". she knows exactly what happened. he can't throw up his hands and say, "she lied and manipulated me". he knows she didn't do that. like you said, they know what they doing. otherwise, that is playing dumb and handing out cop-outs.
Most of them know full well that lack of an answer does not constitute consent, so why do they behave otherwise? Simple. Because they want to do what they want to do without consent, come hell or high water, so they make up a sophist argument to justify what they want to do.really? if a stripper puts her nipples on a customer's mouth. no, i'm not talking about her brushing her nipples in an accidental or brief fashion. no, i'm not talking about him chasing after her nipples. i'm talking about that she knows exactly where her nippples are located on her body in proximity to the customer's mouth and knows exactly that she letting them sit there. now, that doesn't that imply that he has permission to suck her nipples. however, she isn't going to say, "suck my tits" either. however, they sure don't get upset about it when they are sucked. hell, she doesn't even ask for a tip, but the smart customer knows that he better give her a tip. my point is that sometimes strippers don't spell things out (at least verbally). in fact, for the very reason that you mentioned.
You honestly don't understand the marketing appeal of this? Perhaps you're one of those enlightened males who don't mind his women having performed the same sexual act with the previous dozen customers.LOL...oh, i understand it. however, the statement itself is irrelevant to her production. in fact, it's more for her benefit than mine's. like most sex workers, strippers sometimes get conflicted about what they do. so they have this thing about being perceived as skanky whores (either by their peers, customers, friends, family, the general public, etc) even if they're just simply grinding on cocks. so, they feel this need to explain that what they're doing isn't what they're really doing. frankly, i could care less about it. unlike a lot of customers (and strippers), who have this whole madonna/whore complex concerning strippers. i'm all for letting a stripper be a stripper or a ho be a ho. i don't expect them to be temple virgins or future girlfriends. anyway, if she needs to feel as if what she's doing isn't what she's really doing in order to produce. i'll play along.
Jenny
12-29-2005, 09:05 PM
very good, you noticed the ambiguity of the statement and you filled in the blanks. strange, how you didn't consider that the statement could also be absolutely meaningless. ie: the dance is exactly the same lame dance as before you give the dancer a tip. plenty of PLs have thrown good money after bad believing that line.
Well. Is there ambiguity? Yes. So what? There is a difference between being ambiguous and lying. I've never met these PLs you speak of. Seriously - as I told Confession, I think both of you are crediting customers with far too much naivete. If I say something like "it's better" they ALL want to know "how, exactly?"
i know. i thought i made that clear. however, i notice you have this habit of limiting SS to your own ethical measuring stick. every stripper doesn't exactly behave the same way you do, jenny. some them of act far, far differently and that doesn't make it any less SS because you don't do it.
Well, yes I use my ethical measuring stick. Whose else should I use? Your sad little nub? I've made clear the kinds of behaviour that we are dealing with - and situations in which girls are directly lying are not in contention here. Situations in which girls do not give clear answers are - and as Ev said, you guys all know damn well that "You'll enjoy yourself" doesn't equate to "cum on my face."
you don't understand? you're not playing dumb with me, are you? anyway, don't you find this strange. i mean, i could have sworn i mentioned something about "next dance being better than the last" being just as much SS. yet, there's nary a mention by you in your rephrasing. well, let me clear it up for you. a stripper acting that a customer is handsome, interesting and nice to sale a dance isn't the same as a stripper being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive to close the sale on a dance. saying ,"the next dance is better than the last" is none of the things that you mentioned and just because a stripper says it, doesn't mean it's true. don't get me wrong, it's all SS and the end goal is still the same. however, there are differences.
Well. Was the next dance better than the last? Even marginally? If the customer doesn't prepare for what he is buying, that is hardly her responsibility. If she says the next dance will be better than the last and lets the guy grab her ass instead of just squeezing the backs of her thighs, that is "better." It may not be "enough" for you, but that doesn't make it false. I realize that just because a stripper says something doesn't make it true. But just because some stripper somewhere lied, doesn't mean that I can justifiably be subjected harassment.
Yes, the dancers maybe evasive. But as Ev points out - y'all know damn well that "it'll be more fun than sitting here" doesn't mean "yes I will fuck you in the VIP." And - as I said - I really don't run into a lot of customers who buy lines like that anyway. I think you are crediting the customers with some excessive stupidity.
well, aren't we saying the same thing? i said the stripper increased the mileage. she's already getting fingered. i just want to know if you think it indicates unwillingness on her part because she didn't verbally say, "want a BJ"? or "want to finger my pussy?" and pull out a drop down menu.
So the stripper initiated? Then how does it even relate to what I said? If the stripper initiated (it does, however, have to be actual initiation. Not just "well she never said no in advance" and "she answered me evasively, thereby demonstrating an unwillingness to agree to this act, but I wanted to do it anyway, and I don't really see her a person with rights to freedom of the person that have to respect) it is obviously not harassment and would not fall into the situation I outlined. I might ask if you are playing dumb with me. Is this your way of saying you didn't get enough attention as a child, honey?
Jenny
12-29-2005, 09:24 PM
if that's the case. you'd also have to acknowledge there's an element of responsibility on both sides.
Umm, no I don't. I also don't argue that there is some responsibility on the customer if the stripper jacks his wallet when he is drunk. If the woman is consenting to certain things when she agrees to the dance, all others should be explicit.
no, the customer's actions does not absolve him if the stripper is being ambiguous, vague, or evasive to sell a VIP. however, because the stipper knows that she is being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive. furthermore, she knows that she's leaving the customer to fill in the blanks. at some point in time, the customer is going to fill in the blanks in a manner that isn't to her liking.
Now, see this is not true. The customer doesn't have to fill in the blanks. The customer can ask specific questions and get specific answers. If the customer wants to finger the stripper he can get EXPLICIT permission before doing so. If this is a deal breaker then the customer is being extremely silly in buying before the deal is made. If the stripper does not agree to be touched, I fail to see how she is culpable. You are arguing that in the absence of specific refusal the customer can infer consent. If he can't viably do that, then the consent DOESN'T exist. This doesn't seem complicated to me. Yes means yes. Anything that is not yes is not yes. (And I include under yes all synonyms of yes).
like i said, that doesn't absolve him. however, it doesn't absolve the stripper either.
The stripper doesn't need to be absolved. She hasn't done anything except not consent to be intimately touched.
he can't throw up his hands and say, "she lied and manipulated me". he knows she didn't do that.
Well, he can if she did lie and manipulate him. If she just refused to answer his question, it doesn't seem very manipulative and it is certainly not lying. If anything it is telling the truth by omission.
really? if a stripper puts her nipples on a customer's mouth. no, i'm not talking about her brushing her nipples in an accidental or brief fashion. no, i'm not talking about him chasing after her nipples. i'm talking about that she knows exactly where her nippples are located on her body in proximity to the customer's mouth and knows exactly that she letting them sit there. now, that doesn't that imply that he has permission to suck her nipples. however, she isn't going to say, "suck my tits" either. however, they sure don't get upset about it when they are sucked. hell, she doesn't even ask for a tip, but the smart customer knows that he better give her a tip. my point is that sometimes strippers don't spell things out (at least verbally). in fact, for the very reason that you mentioned.
Well - come on. If I took a customer's hand and shoved his fingers into my crotch, that is obviously explicit permission and, for that matter, initiation.
LOL...oh, i understand it. however, the statement itself is irrelevant to her production. in fact, it's more for her benefit than mine's. like most sex workers, strippers sometimes get conflicted about what they do.
I wonder where you get this idea. I mean you don't listen to them or anything. I find this idea hard to believe, if for no other reason than because the women who are sucking cock all night are in a good position to be aware of it. A simple "Wasn't me" is not a particularly effective self-shielding technique. The guys on the other hand, find it very important. Because why are half of them in strip clubs instead of brothels? To make a stupid conquest - to get someone to give something up that she wouldn't normally. Look at the trip reports. How many times are stupid guys are getting hard over the thought of a girl giving them something "special" - like that guy over there paid $1000.00 just to look at her pussy and I can eat her out for $20.00.
so they have this thing about being perceived as skanky whores (either by their peers, customers, friends, family, the general public, etc) even if they're just simply grinding on cocks. so, they feel this need to explain that what they're doing isn't what they're really doing. frankly, i could care less about it.
Well, here you go - a much more effective self-shield is not giving a fuck what your customers think, and considering most of them beneath you anyway. Most of the girls don't think much of the customer's opinion, and the more conflicted they feel the less they consider the opinion of the customer to be worth. But hey. What do I know. I, after all, don't go in and pay $20 to try to get a girl to suck my dick. I'm just, you know. One of the girls you're talking about and all. How would I know how they think.
mr_punk
12-29-2005, 11:28 PM
Well. Is there ambiguity? Yes. So what? There is a difference between being ambiguous and lying.and i didn't imply that it was lying. however, you do understand the principle. you do see how someone could wrongly fill in the blanks when someone is being deliberately ambiguous, right?
I've never met these PLs you speak of. Seriously - as I told Confession, I think both of you are crediting customers with far too much naivete.i know what you told her and you played dumb with her. BTW, you can include yourself in that naive group because you fell for it hook, line and sinker....sucka. seriously, it's a mistake anyone could make (including you) and it's how things can end up very badly in the sc.
Well, yes I use my ethical measuring stick. Whose else should I use? Your sad little nub?sad little nub? hold on, it's a biological fact that men shrink drastically in the shower. oh, you're talking about a ruler, right? right? heh..heh..right?
I've made clear the kinds of behaviour that we are dealing with - and situations in which girls are directly lying are not in contention here. Situations in which girls do not give clear answers are - and as Ev said, you guys all know damn well that "You'll enjoy yourself" doesn't equate to "cum on my face."why shouldn't the behavior be in contention? what? you don't like it? you want a cop-out? seriously, it's a perfectly fair and legitimate point to question. furthermore, like i told evan. i'm not saying it absolve the customer's behavior by a long shot. however, it doesn't absolve the stripper's behavior either. the only legitimate mitigating circumstance would be if the stripper really has no idea what's she's doing. however, i'm assuming that you and evan aren't wide-eyed rookies anymore and know better.
Well. Was the next dance better than the last? Even marginally? If the customer doesn't prepare for what he is buying, that is hardly her responsibility.IOW, you're leaving it up to him to fill in the blanks. well, it's nice to see you stop playing dumb for a change. seriously, don't get me wrong. i agree it isn't her responsibility. it's his responsibility to make sure that she can produce. if she can't produce. it's his responsibility to eighty-six her ass ASAP. furthermore, i'm not saying you're lying or even being unethical. if you want to run that game in the club...fine. however, don't try to run that bulls#it in here. more importantly, as confession mentioned, no one likes feeling ripped-off (including strippers). the fact of the matter is that playing this game with people who don't understand can give some of them the feeling of being ripped-off. people often react badly to being ripped-off. now, you strippers can play dumb, garb yourselves in angel wings and halos and treat it like a f#%king joke for all i care. however, you can't say, "duh...i don't know how that could have happened".
So the stripper initiated? Then how does it even relate to what I said?well, my point is that she didn't initiate it verbally. let's just say started it by she scooting up in the chair and the customer's hand ended up right on the kitty...and she ain't moving it.
mr_punk
12-29-2005, 11:46 PM
Umm, no I don't. I also don't argue that there is some responsibility on the customer if the stripper jacks his wallet when he is drunk. If the woman is consenting to certain things when she agrees to the dance, all others should be explicit.so, you're evan now? anyway, of course you don't think there's an element of responsibility. that's why they call it a cop-out.
The customer doesn't have to fill in the blanks. The customer can ask specific questions and get specific answers.well, it sure didn't stop your from filling in the blanks, now did it? yes, he can ask specific questions. however, if a stripper is being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive to close a sale. what are his chances of getting a specific answer? i'd say not very good.
The stripper doesn't need to be absolved. She hasn't done anything except not consent to be intimately touched.and the hits just keep on coming. you're playing dumb again, right? it's the "i don't how that happened" defense. is that it?
If she just refused to answer his question, it doesn't seem very manipulative and it is certainly not lying. If anything it is telling the truth by omission.like i said, i don't think it's lying, but you do realize what you're doing, right?
The guys on the other hand, find it very important.i know. it's important to them, but it's not important to me.
a much more effective self-shield is not giving a fuck what your customers think, and considering most of them beneath you anyway.that's the problem. you do give a fuck.
Jenny
12-30-2005, 11:24 AM
so, you're evan now?
Only in my wildest dreams.
Seriously, I'm reading your posts and there is no argument there. You are not even indirectly responding to what I'm saying. I explain why I don't think dancers are accountable for what they don't agree to, and you say "you're playing dumb." Now I must say this: You've let me down mr._punk. More importantly - you've let yourself down.
So I will answer your few actual questions, and then try to pretend that this little incident never happened:
Why are the lying strippers not in contention?
Because if a strippers is directly lying (in this context) she obviously HAS directly and explicitly agreed to the contact.
What if she initiates non-verbally?
Well, that depends on the clarity. In the unlikely event that I take a guy's hand and shove his fingers into my vagina, that is obviously consent. I would say that the best rule of thumb is simple: if you have to ask, it was not permission. I have dragged my breasts over many a guy's face without expecting to be licked. I have further pressed a guys face in between my breasts without expecting to be licked. Simple proximity is not necessarily invitation.
Now I have a further question:
Why, if the stripper actually has no idea what she is doing, is that a mitigating factor? I mean, how would the customer know this? How does her secret, internal knowledge (if her behaviour is the same as all of us seasoned vets) affect HIS behaviour?
And finally: you seriously think that a guy (and keep in mind that we are not talking about guys with white knight syndrome - we are talking about guys who are bald enough to ask to finger her in the first place) is likely to take a "just come on" or "You'll have a better time than just sitting here" as a yes? You think that they actually believe that is an affirmative answer? Like they think the girl means by "Let's just go", "yes, I would love for you to touch my pussy?" If you are contending that, really man - you are the one playing dumb. If you are not then it is perfectly, crystal clear that permission has not been given - those blanks you refer to are blank - that means, by definition that they are NOT filled in, and the guy filling them in unilaterally is harassment/assault - and moreover, just NOT NICE. Why, why in the name of god, would anyone even WANT to behave that way?
that's the problem. you do give a fuck. I don't understand - do you mean me, personally? Or dancers in general? You would be surprised how many of these girls just shower you off and go home. All the girls that hassle guys for money, shamelessly just trying to annoy them into giving them like $20? How do they do that? Because they don't care if you are annoyed. They don't care what you think. All they care about is the $20 they got from you. I'm not really there, but I do admire the sentiment. I, on the other hand, actually do like (in a way) at least many of my customers. And I am not conflicted about what I do. I mean, it doesn't always make me feel nice and lovely, but that is not the same as being conflicted. Most girls I talk to don't seem all that "conflicted". I mean they have bad nights - but that isn't the same thing.
Katrine
12-30-2005, 05:15 PM
I don't understand - do you mean me, personally? Or dancers in general? You would be surprised how many of these girls just shower you off and go home. All the girls that hassle guys for money, shamelessly just trying to annoy them into giving them like $20? How do they do that? Because they don't care if you are annoyed. They don't care what you think. All they care about is the $20 they got from you.
Yuppers. True, true dat.
Sometimes they shower your remains off with you right there scrubbing their back for them. But that is another story better left for another time ;)
FBR
yoda57us
12-30-2005, 05:25 PM
Sometimes they shower your remains off with you right there scrubbing their back for them. But that is another story better left for another time ;)
FBR
Been there, but you can't get that for $20.
Been there, but you can't get that for $20.
LOL
To quote Kat "Yuppers. True, true dat."
FBR
evan_essence
12-31-2005, 05:49 AM
because the stipper knows that she is being deliberately ambiguous, vague, or evasive. furthermore, she knows that she's leaving the customer to fill in the blanks. at some point in time, the customer is going to fill in the blanks in a manner that isn't to her liking. like i said, that doesn't absolve him. however, it doesn't absolve the stripper either. no one hands are completely clean here. no one is the innocent party. so, she can't throw up her hands and say, "duh...i don't know what happened". she knows exactly what happened. he can't throw up his hands and say, "she lied and manipulated me". he knows she didn't do that. like you said, they know what they doing. otherwise, that is playing dumb and handing out cop-outs.No one is saying "duh, I don't know what happened." We're saying, "g**dammit, I didn't give him permission to finger my cooch, and he went ahead and did it anyway." In fact, most of the time, it's a case in which the attempts continue after he's expressly told to stop.
Nothing you've said has challenged my perception of this. When I don't answer the question, the blanks are unfilled. It's the customer who, of his own volition, fills in the blanks. It's the customer who is the only one who is culpable for filling in the blanks as an affirmative when he has no right to do so. How 'bout he leave the blanks the @$#%*& way they are -- BLANK? Not getting an answer is not a legitimate excuse for making one up. It is a legitimate excuse for taking your business elsewhere.
As far as what is and isn't a cop out, we can accuse each other of cop outs all day long without either one of us having a more valid definition of whose rationale constitutes a cop out than the other.
really? if a stripper puts her nipples on a customer's mouth. .... i'm talking about that she knows exactly where her nippples are located on her body in proximity to the customer's mouth and knows exactly that she letting them sit there. now, that doesn't that imply that he has permission to suck her nipples. however, she isn't going to say, "suck my tits" either. however, they sure don't get upset about it when they are sucked. hell, she doesn't even ask for a tip, but the smart customer knows that he better give her a tip. my point is that sometimes strippers don't spell things out (at least verbally). in fact, for the very reason that you mentioned.Hun, if I position my nipple onto your lips and leave it there in a clearly deliberate fashion (down boy, 'tain't happenin'), that act is a non-verbal statement of permission. If I grab your hand and move it onto my labia majora (neither is this), the same. So of course, sometimes whoever operates that way doesn't verbally spell things out. Instead, they lead you. If you're led somewhere you want to go, follow. But wait until you're led. If you're not led, don't go there. Remember, until you're led, all you've got is blanks. Erm, I mean a lack of permission. If she didn't do what you wanted to do, then find someone else and try again. It's not like you don't have underground sources of information about the Most Likely to Lead. Sheesh, I think it's even posted at the local Post Office these days.
Given strip clubs are sexually charged environments and given I want to pay my bills, I consider myself pragmatic about this so I don't castrate on the first offense if the customer is cooperative after being admonished. I assume by your body of posts that you're not doing this behavior yourself, so I'm truly perplexed by your belief that omission can be justified as permission. It's not like I'm asking for the guys to be charged with assault, so at the very least, why can't this probing without permission be declared PL behavior and stigmatized by you as such?
LOL...oh, i understand it. however, the statement itself is irrelevant to her production. in fact, it's more for her benefit than mine's. like most sex workers, strippers sometimes get conflicted about what they do. .... so, they feel this need to explain that what they're doing isn't what they're really doing. frankly, i could care less about it. .... i don't expect them to be temple virgins or future girlfriends. anyway, if she needs to feel as if what she's doing isn't what she's really doing in order to produce. i'll play along.Well, whatever the intent, the effect is the same. Matter of fact, ladies, take note of this. In addition to all that it will do for your self-esteem, it's effective to use this disclaimer to assuage the gullible consumer who wants to think he's the one and only, and, as we've learned here, it's equally as effective to use the disclaimer to boost the feelings of superiority of the smug ones.
-Ev
mr_punk
12-31-2005, 07:12 AM
Seriously, I'm reading your posts and there is no argument there. You are not even indirectly responding to what I'm saying. I explain why I don't think dancers are accountable for what they don't agree to, and you say "you're playing dumb."and i don't disagree with you on that point. here's where i disagree with you. you're proposing that in this instance strippers aren't responsible for their own actions. IOW, you seem to think that since she isn't lying (and she isn't). she can't be held accountable simply for the act of being knowingly and deliberately ambiguous, vauge and evasive with customer. my response to that argument is "why not?". true, her actions didn't cause him to finger her. thus, i can't hold her accountable for his actions no matter what she said. however, i can hold them each accountable for their own course of action.
Why are the lying strippers not in contention? Because if a strippers is directly lying (in this context) she obviously HAS directly and explicitly agreed to the contact.well, lying strippers were never in contention on my part. so, i have no idea why you keep bringing this up. OTOH, the actions of a deliberately ambiguous stripper are in contention.
I would say that the best rule of thumb is simple: if you have to ask, it was not permission. I have dragged my breasts over many a guy's face without expecting to be licked. I have further pressed a guys face in between my breasts without expecting to be licked. Simple proximity is not necessarily invitation.drag?? lol...well, dragging your tits across a customer's face is a long way from leaving your nipple right on his lips for an extended period of time, isn't it? i bet you don't do that, do you? now, as far as some customer licking some stripper's sternum? hey, i'm not into that kinky stuff.
Why, if the stripper actually has no idea what she is doing, is that a mitigating factor? I mean, how would the customer know this? How does her secret, internal knowledge (if her behaviour is the same as all of us seasoned vets) affect HIS behaviour?it's a facetious remark. ie: the stripper is actually dumb instead of just playing dumb.
And finally: you seriously think that a guy (and keep in mind that we are not talking about guys with white knight syndrome - we are talking about guys who are bald enough to ask to finger her in the first place) is likely to take a "just come on" or "You'll have a better time than just sitting here" as a yes? You think that they actually believe that is an affirmative answer? Like they think the girl means by "Let's just go", "yes, I would love for you to touch my pussy?" If you are contending that, really man - you are the one playing dumb.LOL...oh, is that how it happens? is that how a conversation with a stripper who's being ambiguous, vauge and evasive unfolds? like i said, i'm not arguing that strippers are accountable for what they didn't agree to. in any case, why are you so hell bent on portraying the stripper running this game an innocent party? if someone is being being deliberately ambiguous, vauge and evasive with you. would you consider them to be a creditable person? i would not. quite the opposite, IMO. in fact, you should be wary of the person. don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with doing business with this person. you can still get what you want. however, one would be wise to count all the fingers, rings and check their wallets before and after doing business with them.
now, you can argue that a stripper isn't responsible for her own actions and claim she's an innocent party who's been victimized. i slightly disagree. victimized? sure. innocent? no, she chooses deliberately ambiguous, vauge and evasive. not responsible for her own actions? are you high? she's a weasel. i don't give weasels a cop-out. frankly, i wouldn't trust this stripper as far as i could throw her. i recognize my own kind when i see them.}:D
don't understand - do you mean me, personally? Or dancers in general?in general. if i say "cock grinder" or "whorehouse". inevitably, some stripper is going to chime in with a more mentally soothing euphemism like "artiste" or "gentleman's club". in some instances, when the stripper is giving up the ass. you have to present the money in a way as not to offend. like the money isn't for your ass. it's for that new xbox. yeah, that's it. otherwise, you will in inevitably hear the phrase, "i'm not a ho..". it doesn't matter to me one way or another. however, if they didn't give a fuck. there's no need to make these kind of qualifying remarks.
You would be surprised how many of these girls just shower you off and go home.actually, it wouldn't. if i were a stripper and i had me as a customer. i would want to take a scalding hot shower and scrub myself with a brillo pad to wash away the lube, discarded DNA and the imprint of my own face off my ass. all while trying to forget all the disgusting and perverted things that i made myself do. men..huh?
All the girls that hassle guys for money, shamelessly just trying to annoy them into giving them like $20? How do they do that? Because they don't care if you are annoyed. They don't care what you think. All they care about is the $20 they got from you.is this supposed to be news to me? a sex worker wanting money? why, i never would have guessed.
mr_punk
12-31-2005, 07:15 AM
No one is saying "duh, I don't know what happened." We're saying, "g**dammit, I didn't give him permission to finger my cooch, and he went ahead and did it anyway." In fact, most of the time, it's a case in which the attempts continue after he's expressly told to stop.and like i told jenny. i'm not disagreeing with you on that point.
When I don't answer the question, the blanks are unfilled. It's the customer who, of his own volition, fills in the blanks.now, where did i hear that before? oh yeah, i said it myself. in fact, jenny filled in the blanks herself. you know, people tend to do that when someone is being deliberately ambiguous, vauge and evasive.
evan_essence
01-01-2006, 09:46 AM
you know, people tend to do that when someone is being deliberately ambiguous, vauge and evasive.Tend to, as if it's divorced from concious choice? In fact, they choose how they react to the lack of clarity. "Let's see, that was very vague, I can choose to not stick my fingers in her twat or I can choose to do so. What shall I do?" It's that choice that makes the chooser 100 percent culpable, not 50.
-Ev
slogan63
01-01-2006, 12:12 PM
I am actually quite tired of this back and forth. What is wrong with us customers that enables us to treat half naked girls rubbing on our crotches, moaning in our ears and rubbing their own p**sies any different than the fully dressed waitress at our favorite restaurant. Don't we know that strippers are just regular girls and it is all a fantasy anyway. Besides every stripper, in the pursuit of god's work, alway says to each potential customer, "this is all a fantasy, I really don't like you and you should not think that you can touch me simply becuase I won't give you a straight answer because I if you do I won't get that 150.00 champagne room off of you" before commiting to a dance. God we are such idiots.I don't know why these parogons of virtue can put up with us.
mr_punk
01-01-2006, 02:37 PM
Tend to, as if it's divorced from concious choice? In fact, they choose how they react to the lack of clarity. "Let's see, that was very vague, I can choose to not stick my fingers in her twat or I can choose to do so. What shall I do?" It's that choice that makes the chooser 100 percent culpable, not 50.aren't we saying the same thing? ultimately, it doesn't absolve the individual from their own actions. no matter what the other person did to them. when confession first made the proposition. it's amazing how many people pooh-poohed the notion or were willing to give a weasel a free pass because she was victimized. especially, in light of the big ethical lecture we recieved about "bad people" and "bad karma". i'm sorry, but a weasel being unjustly victimized does not make her less of a weasel and transform her into an innocent party.
I am actually quite tired of this back and forth.so, who's stopping you from reading it?
What is wrong with us customers that enables us to treat half naked girls rubbing on our crotches, moaning in our ears and rubbing their own p**sies any different than the fully dressed waitress at our favorite restaurant.i don't know. you tell me, chief. where can a man find a nice family restaurant, where the waitresses grind on the cocks of their customers? for that matter, where can a man find a nice family restaurant, where the waitresses grind on the cocks of their customers without getting hit over the head with a baseball bat by the SO? oh yeah, you can explain to the kids why that strange woman is sitting on daddy's lap.
evan_essence
01-03-2006, 05:15 AM
where can a man find a nice family restaurant, where the waitresses grind on the cocks of their customers without getting hit over the head with a baseball bat by the SO?:rotfl: I think Slogan was gunning for me with a barrell full of sarcasm. You're sniping at your own troops with friendly fire.
-Ev
mr_punk
01-03-2006, 01:23 PM
my troops? first of all, i didn't know that i had troops. secondly, i don't need the help from his kind. he's has 8 posts to his name. which pretty much makes him a quasi-lurker. you know the type. they have little, if anything, to say in a discussion while it's unfolding, but soon as the smoke clears. that's when they decide to pop out of the woodwork to make the most obvious comments, kiss ass or take cheap shots. so, if anyone is going to take a shot at you. it's going to be me (i think i earned it) and not some human weather vane.
xdamage
01-03-2006, 09:01 PM
Well I've been away on business again and missed out on all of the follow up convo. Bottom line...
Its a strip club, and there is a lot of sexual activity going on for money. I and other guys will pay for more if we have a good time, plain and simple. FS (or putting out everything) is not required.
evan_essence
01-03-2006, 10:39 PM
if anyone is going to take a shot at you. it's going to be me (i think i earned it) and not some human weather vane.Great. I get to be dragged by my hair back to the Punk cave.
-Ev
slogan63
01-04-2006, 07:10 AM
Only 1281 until I catch up Mr. Punk. However, from this point on I will certainly attempt to have you screen my posts to ensure that you validate my opinions for posting on your board.
FourWinns
01-04-2006, 03:22 PM
Only 1281 until I catch up Mr. Punk...
... like lap dances; it's the quality that counts.
But I sure would like to know as much about SC'ing as these God/Godesses.
jannisary
01-04-2006, 11:22 PM
I've got some time this evening so figured I'd respond to this post finally. I've been a regular for about a year with a wonderful dancer, of the dancers I've met so far she is my favorite.
The only "extras" I've gotten from her were a kiss on the lips for Christmas. Would I like to hook up with her? Hell yes, but if it never happens then it just doesn't happen and I'm not even really pushing for it to happen. She's my favorite because I can walk in to her club and have an abosuletly great time with her. I respect her, she respects me and we just "click" for lack of a better description. Since I only go to her club once or twice a month, its a special treat to see her. Why forsake that just because she's not "putting out", sex is not hard to find but another like her might be.
I also know other dancers who do "put out" and I'm not sure if I'd really want to be their "regular". Though admittedly that hasn't stopped me from bumping uglies with a few a them. Of the "other" dancers there is just one that I really hold any interest in. The others were just a physical distraction from the dullness of normal life.
Cally
01-05-2006, 03:09 AM
All I can say is... this topic is STILL going? FFS people.. *shakes her head*
FourWinns
01-05-2006, 06:31 PM
All I can say is... this topic is STILL going? FFS people.. *shakes her head*
Haven't you heard? Every 100 customer posts on this site is good for one free lap dance certificate. Valid anywhere in the USA - all card carrying strippers know about this. I hope to get my freebie about 2010.
FourWinns
01-05-2006, 06:49 PM
Since you're up above; exchange rates don't apply here to the best of my knowledge.