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Wwanderer
01-12-2006, 06:40 PM
See

http://ublib.buffalo.edu/libraries/asl/exhibits/schrodinger/e_schro.html

for some entertaining material on Schrodinger's equation, especially the Java Applets link. I bet they'll be surprised to see incoming traffic linking from SW. (Btw, for anyone who was traumatized by the other link I posted today, don't worry; this one is VERY different.)


I thought I knew something about that silly cat, too, til I tried to understand Murray Gell-Mann's take on it...

I don't think poisoning little kitties locked in boxes is a suitable topic for delicate pink side sensitivities.


ah, well. I think some people are SO smart that they actually feel excruciatingly uncomfortable in the world.

Dick Feynman used to say "if quantum mechanics doesn't bother you, then you don't understand it".


Clues, clues everywhere...makes me wonder if someone is trying to con me. :eek:

-Ww

All Good Things
01-12-2006, 06:54 PM
}:D Smart and nasty, it's an unbeatable combination. Oh and Nic's way with a sentence gives me wood. }:D

Yeah, well, don't make me pull out my chainsaw. ;)


My impression is that the reaction of highly intelligent people to formal education depends a lot on their particular psychology and personality.

Exactly. Nic's also right about family attitudes and opportunity. I'd argue, though, that peer group pressure is immeasurably more important to shaping reaction to formal education than family influence. A radical notion, I know. I think psychology's "family prejudice" is just now coming under the proper intense scrutiny. More than a handful of studies are showing what we've all known intuitively and by experience: that peer pressure drives choices in the critical decision years.

Nic mentioned the various intelligences, and she's right about that. We tend to think of intelligence as verbal and mathematical because of "IQ prejudice," but there are at least five recognized variations of human intelligence, from spatial-mechanical through musical and emotional. Formal education, unfortunately, tends to emphasize the verbal and mathematical and is more likely to reward, encourage and influence individuals with those specific gifts. It's short-sighted, narrow-minded and terribly unfortunate.

Oh, and since Schrodinger's cat is just a thought experiment to illustrate a quantum-mechanical flouting of the Newtonian mindset (virtual cats before the virtual age, as it were), I think the sexy braniacs on pink (the only ones reading this right now) can certainly handle it.

All Good Things
01-12-2006, 07:22 PM
And anyway, isn't the amount of dirty nasty raw animal sex you get inversely proportional to your level of education? :P

Oh, my most beautiful girl, I hope to God not. For how else would you explain the two of us? :)


In fact, sometimes I think that the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are to reject formal education...Does anyone agree?

You'd get a much better correlation with stubborness, rebellion, original insight, creative instinct, and the pernicious influence of frustrated high school teachers with limited options, a recognition of their own limits and a terrible mean streak.

Having said that, my own high school teachers literally saved my life. A topic for another thread, of course.

Nicolina
01-12-2006, 07:45 PM
Oh, my most beautiful girl, I hope to God not. For how else would you explain the two of us? :)


Hey, I don't have anything beyond a HS diploma...That's how I explain it! :P

Casual Observer
01-12-2006, 07:54 PM
Family attitudes play a role too, as does access and opportunity...

I smell a neo-Marxist theme entering the debate here...tread carefully, lest ye get my dander up about that.

;)

Mastridonicus
01-12-2006, 08:03 PM
Hey, I don't have anything beyond a HS diploma...That's how I explain it! :P


If I may inquire,

Any college at all?


***EDIT

NEVERMIND! Thanks TOO!

Wwanderer
01-12-2006, 08:08 PM
Oh, and since Schrodinger's cat is just a thought experiment to illustrate a quantum-mechanical flouting of the Newtonian mindset (virtual cats before the virtual age, as it were), I think the sexy braniacs on pink (the only ones reading this right now) can certainly handle it.

If you think so, fine, but you tell them about thinking about poisoning little kitties locked in boxes with diabolical gadgets which end up producing cats that have used up half of one of their 9 lives. I already made one (quite smart) woman cry with that particular tale; I'm not going to repeat the mistake. ;)

However, before falling silent on this emotion laden topic, I would like to say that I think Gell-Mann is correct but missing the point in the quote Nic posted and know that some others, far more qualified than I to debate the matter, agree with me.

-Ww

PS - Perhap we should move the discussion here: http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60566

PPS - Or maybe: http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60528

kikin
01-12-2006, 08:45 PM
Yeah, well, don't make me pull out my chainsaw. ;)
Oh, and since Schrodinger's cat is just a thought experiment to illustrate a quantum-mechanical flouting of the Newtonian mindset (virtual cats before the virtual age, as it were), I think the sexy braniacs on pink (the only ones reading this right now) can certainly handle it.
I doubt it.

callista
01-12-2006, 08:51 PM
i know that i was sitting and talking once to these two guys, and one of them said something about physics...... well, the only physics that i know of are of the quantum type, so i started talking about that.

homeboy and his buddy spent about 300 on me after that. they were shocked.

i've never been so giddy about physics!

Nicolina
01-12-2006, 09:47 PM
Yeah, well, don't make me pull out my chainsaw.

Now, now... Be nice, Baby.

He didn't mean it, Docido.

(Okay, maybe he did. But I appreciate the sentiment nevertheless. ;) Nice signature line, btw. ;D)

MojoJojo
01-12-2006, 09:58 PM
Hmmm - I couldn't answer the poll directly. I don't have a "requirement" that she is brilliant...although the smarter she is, the more intrigued I am....but it's not actually a deal breaker. Was I surprised? Nah....I meet all sorts of smart people. Some have college degrees...and some have GED's...likewise, I know people with PHD's who are dumb as a box o' rocks.




Guys,

Were you surprised when you met your first highly intelligent stripper? What was the experience?

I've certainly met dancers who inhabit the far ends of this spectrum in either direction. Do you prefer your strippers brilliant or dim? To be honest, I can see the charm in both extremes...

Nicolina
01-12-2006, 10:10 PM
If you think so, fine, but you tell them about thinking about poisoning little kitties locked in boxes with diabolical gadgets which end up producing cats that have used up half of one of their 9 lives. I already made one (quite smart) woman cry with that particular tale; I'm not going to repeat the mistake. ;)

Well, don't hold your tongue on my account. At New Year's Eve dinner, after everyone had told their stories about rescuing stray cats and opting to save their lives by employing costly cutting-edge feline surgery specialists, I regaled my companions with an account of how I'd watched a predator control technician on a Navy-owned island kill a feral cat that had been caught in a leg-hold trap by injecting adrenalin directly into its heart. A co-worker then cut off the cat's head because she wanted to bury it and add the skull to her collection when it had been stripped by the subterranean scavengers who specialize in such things. (SORRY!!! I'm a biologist!!! We forget, sometimes, that this sort of behavior isn't considered normal. :-\ )

Needless to say, this story did not go over very well with my dining companions. I like cats; I really do...



However, before falling silent on this emotion laden topic, I would like to say that I think Gell-Mann is correct but missing the point in the quote Nic posted and know that some others, far more qualified than I to debate the matter, agree with me.

Ww, is he basically just saying that, in the "real world" (i.e., on the scale of everyday human-perceived objects), the cat really is either dead or alive, and not in that weird quantum state of being both (or neither) until the moment of observation?

...Or something like that?

Wwanderer
01-13-2006, 09:22 AM
Well, don't hold your tongue on my account. ... SORRY!!! I'm a biologist!!!

Offending your sensibilities was not my worry, Nic. And I know what you mean about biologists. I once lived with group of people that included a tiny Malaysian woman with a cheery smurf-like disposition and voice who was at the time a grad student in biology. Everyone in the house soon learned to keep her off the topic of her work during dinner!


Ww, is he basically just saying that, in the "real world" (i.e., on the scale of everyday human-perceived objects), the cat really is either dead or alive, and not in that weird quantum state of being both (or neither) until the moment of observation?

My understanding, of which I am reasonably confident, is that he is pointing out that if you actually tried to perform the thought experiment in the real world it wouldn't work because no possible "box" would sufficiently isolate the poor kitty from various possible interactions with the outside world (gravitational ones at the very least) to allow the two basis quantum states (dead and alive) to remain superposed with equal probability amplitudes, due to the cat's size and mass (which put it in a quasi-classical limit). Rather, its wave function would soom be ALMOST entirely concentrated in one of the two possible states, even without any observation to "collapse the wave function". There has been a lot of work in this general area, often described as quantum non-demolition or quantunm decoherence, in recent decades...well after the classical discussions of the meaning of QM in the early years after its discovery (i.e., what you see in text books typically).

Imo, as mentioned above, Gell-Mann is perfectly correct re the above (of course), but that it is irrelevant because the whole point of the thought experiment paradox was/is to emphasize the mysterious and counter-intuitive properties of QM. In principle, you could do such an experiment, for example in a hypothetical universe which was totally empty aside from the box and its mortality-ambiguous occupant. So, the paradox does illustrate an actual property of QM as a theory, whether or not you could do the experiment. Gell-Mann's answer also somewhat misses the point because it is not essential, at least imo, to the paradox that the prob amplitudes for dead vs alive be equal. Even if they decohere and one state becomes (overwhelmingly) the dominant one, there will still be a finite (but exponentially tiny) amplitude for the other.

Sorry, but you did ask...

-Ww

CuriousJ
01-13-2006, 09:28 AM
The charm and just the vibe someone puts out to me is what makes my experience enjoyable or not - the IQ high or low doesnt matter to me . As I watch naked chicks ( as it is stated here ) I think my IQ tends to fall many points as I cease from solving the worlds problems for the moment .

dlabtot
01-13-2006, 10:00 AM
I smell a neo-Marxist theme entering the debate here...tread carefully, lest ye get my dander up about that.

;)

No one has to 'tread carefully'.... why should anyone care whether they 'get your dander up'?


pffffffffft... ::)

Mastridonicus
01-13-2006, 10:19 AM
No one has to 'tread carefully'.... why should anyone care whether they 'get your dander up'?


pffffffffft... ::)


Apparently YOU never got his dander up.......


Mast.

dlabtot
01-13-2006, 10:27 AM
^^I don't know or care. The suggestion that somone on this messageboard should curb their speech to avoid hurting some particular poster's delicate sensibilities is so lame that it deserved a smackdown.

Nicolina
01-13-2006, 10:40 AM
I smell a neo-Marxist theme entering the debate here...tread carefully, lest ye get my dander up about that.

;)

Nah, I was just thinking about the fact that if your family places a high value on formal education, you'll be more likely to pursue it, generally speaking. And if your family doesn't place a high value on it, you'll often have a tougher time pursuing it, even if you're motivated to do so.

Nicolina
01-13-2006, 10:43 AM
Sorry, but you did ask...


Thanks for the cogent explanation! You did a better job than Gell-Mann. :)

Mastridonicus
01-13-2006, 10:48 AM
Nah, I was just thinking about the fact that if your family places a high value on formal education, you'll be more likely to pursue it, generally speaking. And if your family doesn't place a high value on it, you'll often have a tougher time pursuing it, even if you're motivated to do so.


To compliment this, I only went to college because of that reason. I dropped out because it just wasn't for me. At least I had a good average when I dropped out. My parents refused to acknowledge me as anything other than a colossal failure until I started doing well. Even still tho, its brought up with an unforgiving frequency.

Casual Observer
01-13-2006, 10:50 AM
I don't know or care. The suggestion that somone on this messageboard should curb their speech to avoid hurting some particular poster's delicate sensibilities is so lame that it deserved a smackdown.

Save your pathetic platitudes for someone else. You don't get the inside joke, clearly. Moreover, this board is the equivalent of walking on eggshells as evidenced by the level of moderation on SW to protect ostensibly fragile dancer sensibilities from the less-pleasant aspects of controversial issues raised by some here.

dlabtot
01-13-2006, 10:56 AM
Save your pathetic platitudes for someone else.

No.

I'll say what I please, irrespective of whether it upsets you enough to cause you to throw out some flamebait insult. Indulge in your temper tantrum, by all means.

Mastridonicus
01-13-2006, 11:06 AM
Now you got his dander up.

Here's a dictionary.

I'll check-in in a few hours.

Lena
01-13-2006, 01:51 PM
In fact, sometimes I think that the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are to reject formal education...Does anyone agree?

I totally agree. I have learned soooo much more doing my own research and subscribing to a few good journals than I learned in four years at a state school. Which has me so uninspired to go to grad school...

Nicolina
01-13-2006, 02:18 PM
^ I can relate! Even though I've accumulated a respectable number of undergrad credits over the years, I still feel that the bulk of my knowledge comes from my efforts to self-educate during the years I've spent out of school--stripping, writing, reading good books and magazines and journals...road-tripping, travelling, hiking, taking photographs, watching wildlife....

I'm ambivalent about formal education...There are aspects of it that I really enjoy, but it's kind of horrible in other ways. I've dropped out of degree programs twice, am now back for a third try, and I've got transcripts from five--count 'em, five--institutions of higher learning.

Maybe it's that whole sex thing that's made me so dead-set on taking my sweet time to finish this damn degree! :P

Lena
01-13-2006, 05:44 PM
I'm ambivalent about formal education...There are aspects of it that I really enjoy, but it's kind of horrible in other ways. I've dropped out of degree programs twice, am now back for a third try, and I've got transcripts from five--count 'em, five--institutions of higher learning.


LOL I'm on my sixth institution of higher learning, and now that I (almost) have a degree, I wish I hadn't spent the time/money on it. I wish I could have spend a few years as an apprentice to someone very very wise. I would have gotten so much more out of it.

Katrine
01-13-2006, 06:47 PM
Nah, I was just thinking about the fact that if your family places a high value on formal education, you'll be more likely to pursue it, generally speaking. And if your family doesn't place a high value on it, you'll often have a tougher time pursuing it, even if you're motivated to do so.

Yup, anyting less than a graduate degree was unacceptable to my parents. They kind of gave up on my brother and he may or may not get his undergrad, but he's taken a more entrepeneurial route. So did I actually, but they can't know about that, they are just happy to tell people who don't give a shit about their successful MBA daughter. Whatever makes them happy, its not necessary to break their hearts.

I used to think I was oh so very intelligent, now I'm more acutely aware of how little I know and understand as time progresses.

McCain
01-13-2006, 06:55 PM
I personally couldn't give a rat's ass less about formal learning, as I've learned far more in work settings than I ever did in school.

Unfortunately, it is a necessary evil if I am to ever end up in my career of choice - family law, specializing in child advocacy.

~~McCain

Wwanderer
01-13-2006, 08:04 PM
now I'm more acutely aware of how little I know and understand as time progresses.

Imo, this attitude is indicative of a very great intelligence indeed:

“In the pursuit of knowledge,
Everyday something is gained.
In the pursuit of the Tao,
Everyday something is lost.”
- Tao Te Ching


-Ww

Djoser
01-13-2006, 09:04 PM
Well, one good thing about going to a really good school is that you can benefit from the experience of meeting and getting to know other smart people--I still miss that.

But the drawback is that so many of them spent so much time in high school being nerds, that they have little idea of how to relate to other people.

You might have the impression that I might fall into that category, if you read many of my posts--for I have been permanently afflicted with this damned academic writing style. It's hard to shake (obviously, lol). I wouldn't last 5 minutes in my club if I spoke in the same style as I write with here.

But possibly the worst thing about a really good school is the abundance of what--for lack of a better term--I call 'super psuedo-intellectuals'. These are people who have never received any attention except when they can trot out their vast knowledge or power of logical reasoning. A normal person constantly trying to show off his intelligence is merely irritating and/or boring as hell--the kind of people I am talking about are literally intolerable.

If you think I'm bad, these people would have you frantically digging in your handbag for that old can of pepper spray your ex gave you...

kikin
01-13-2006, 11:16 PM
Formal education has very little to do with intelligence.

Some very formally 'uneducated' people are very intelligent.

Some very formally educated people are not very intelligent.

Having said that, I believe if someone wants to learn and there is a lot to learn about our beautiful world, then it's best to get a formal education because it teaches you how to learn on your own. College education actually teaches very little in terms of actual content of knowledge--most people forget what they learn in college within 2 or 3 years out. And most of what is 'learned' in college is spoonfed by professors and therefore not many students remember all of it.

A Master's degree teaches you how to become a good learner, but it's still doesn't get you there--but it's better than college. The time it takes to get a master's degree is only about 1 1/2 to 2 years if you're going full time. This time period is too short to actually learn how to truly learn.

A Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) is where the whole thing comes together. You learn to learn on your own...your professors will not spoonfeed you, they tell you to go learn this stuff on your own and come back to talk about it when your're ready. Plus a Ph.D. takes approximately 5 years if you're going full time but it depends on the field. By the time you get out, you truly have become an independent scholar and a thinker. After getting a Ph.D. in one field, it is easier to pick up and become an expert at any other field just by putting in the time to learn it on your own...plus having your Ph.D. degree means that people will take you seriously when you gain expertise in a different field without actually having a degree in that field.

Of course you need a college degree to even think about getting a master's or ph.d. So all those years of formal education starting with kindergarden and culminating in a ph.d. means you are one cool sonofabitch scholar. And nobody can take that away from you, ever. W00t!!

Just my $0.02.

Jenny
01-13-2006, 11:27 PM
Hmm. I seem to be the only one here who really thinks there is something to a formal education. I mean, I take people as I find them - I would not simply decide someone is bright or not bright because they have/don't have a degree.

One of the brightest women I ever met was a 22 year old stripper, tanned, hardbodied and siliconed with like half basketballs on her chest - and a high school drop out. She was also funny, and crazy and said things you don't expect to hear, and read more than I did - her favourite author was Salmon Rushdie. But I think that most people who have innate love of learning and knowledge seek out education (this particular woman didn't and said she wouldn't return to school at gunpoint. But I think that is exceptional), and seek out mentors (and really college is a good place to do that). And - again, I do not prejudge people, and I am willing to take them as I find them - I personally find more aware, more knowledgeable people on a campus than off (although this is a metaphorical campus right? I don't mean a literal, geographical college campus).

kikin
01-13-2006, 11:28 PM
^^^ I'm with you Jenny. Did you read my post?

Nautilus
01-13-2006, 11:51 PM
without law school i'd be screwed for getting a job at the bar... so formal education is marginally helpful in this regard, although i truly believe it to be a formality. everyone knows you learn on the job...

and besides, unless i can find the equivalent of "law & order: the tittie unit", i might be stuck for a gig.

upside to formal education: it is a convenient period where people stop questioning what you are doing with your life...

Djoser
01-14-2006, 12:34 AM
Formal education has very little to do with intelligence.

Some very formally 'uneducated' people are very intelligent.

Some very formally educated people are not very intelligent.

...And most of what is 'learned' in college is spoonfed by professors and therefore not many students remember all of it.

True enough...

However, the ratios tend to be very much in favor of people with formal education possessing greater intelligence.

I have met some pretty stupid people who had college degrees, though not many (actually none I can think of at this precise moment--but I know I have, lol). And I have met a fair number of smart people without formal education.

I doubt I have ever met a truly stupid person with a doctorate, though--unless you are defining "stupid" as being unable to utilize that education in attaining worthy achievements. It's not intelligence that really makes you money, for instance--it's without question being shrewd that does it.

A really good school will not just spoon feed knowledge to its students, to be regurgitated properly and forgotten in a few years. It will 'train the brain', so to speak, and foster the development of an ability to analyze information and reach an understanding of underlying principles and patterns--hopefully to use that insight to advantage in some fashion.

Thus the knowledge may indeed fade away, but the ability to process it remains.

But this is growing tedious, lol--too much pedantic bullshit, by far.

BTW, JayZeno, I think you are doing an excellent job in here, as well as FBR. I would never have the patience to do so well--though I like customers far more than most would ever realize from reading some of my posts (especially the older ones). Otherwise I'd be a rotten DJ, and my club would be declining, not improving.

Lena
01-14-2006, 08:34 AM
Unfortunately, it is a necessary evil if I am to ever end up in my career of choice - family law, specializing in child advocacy.


McCain, I'm sure you already know this, but in most states you can be a Guardian Ad Litem without a law degree. I've volunteered as a court appointed special advocate for children who were dependents of the state for three years now, and if I wanted a job as a GAL or working for one of the programs that does educational advocacy I could probalby have it.

Wwanderer
01-14-2006, 09:54 AM
Even people with a lot of formal education often end up picking up a great deal of their knowledge and skills in informal ways, on the job, in the "real world" and so forth. Unsurprisingly, different modes of learning work better for different people and have different pros and cons. For students who find its style attractive or at least palatable (which, of course, is a big problem for some), formal education has the advantage of providing knowledge in a relatively organized and systematic way that is less likely to leave gaps or unbalanced grasps of a subject. But as Djoser pointed out, the goal of advanced formal education is less to give the student a body of knowledge than to teach him/her valuable intellectual skills - how to find information that one doesn't already have, how to problem solve, how to critically evaluate evidence and arguments and indeed how to systematically study a topic on one's own. As others have also noted, degrees amount to "union cards" in a lot of professions; without them you can't get the job you want even if you could do it perfectly well without the degreee. Overall, I'd say that formal and informal education are complementary and both very valuable.

Finally, re the anti-correlation of degrees with hot sex, keep in mind that correlations don't imply causality!

-Ww

yoda57us
01-14-2006, 10:37 AM
I tried and dropped out of college twice back in the seventies. Do I regret it? On some levels yes but I wound up in an occupation that I enjoy, pays well, gives me occasional blocks of free time to enjoy strip clubs and other hobbies. Thirty years ago there was no degree program for what I do for a living. In fact there wasn't even a trade or vocational school for it.

Most of the people I work with are college educated and are usually surprised when I tell them I never graduated. The fact that I'm 10 or 20 years older than a lot of them may have something to do with it (never underestimate the benefits of the college of hard knocks)

I like people with lucid, open minds. Common sense and an awareness of reality are much more important to me than what degree you've got hanging on your wall. I'm not implying that common sense and higher education have to be mutually exclusive but you can't learn the former in any university degree program and without it, the latter is often useless.

Katrine
01-14-2006, 07:31 PM
Imo, this attitude is indicative of a very great intelligence indeed:

“In the pursuit of knowledge,
Everyday something is gained.
In the pursuit of the Tao,
Everyday something is lost.”
- Tao Te Ching


-Ww
Hypocrisy

When the Way is forgotten
Duty and justice appear;
Then knowledge and wisdom are born
Along with hypocrisy.

When harmonious relationships dissolve
Then respect and devotion arise;
When a nation falls to chaos
Then loyalty and patriotism are born.

One of my fave's from the Tao. I take my Lao Tze and something by Herman Hesse with me on most beach vacations for inspiration. That, and Jane and Cosmo mags too, lol!

Djoser
01-16-2006, 01:48 AM
I read about half the Hesse books a few years ago, Steppenwolf being my favorite. Never did get to Siddhartha, though...

McCain
01-16-2006, 08:32 PM
McCain, I'm sure you already know this, but in most states you can be a Guardian Ad Litem without a law degree. I've volunteered as a court appointed special advocate for children who were dependents of the state for three years now, and if I wanted a job as a GAL or working for one of the programs that does educational advocacy I could probalby have it.

This is true for some states, but not all, and it doesn't seem to be applicable to Ontario. We have the Children's Aid Society here, but even that requires a formal degree in Social Work.

Personally, I will be far more comfortable representing the legal and social interests of minors if I have a solid education in the apllicable laws... it gives a better understanding of what can and cannot be done to protect said interests.

But... that's just me...

It's definitely a field in which I have great interest, and Holy Bubba knows it would a far better (read: less dysfunctional) choice for me than social work.

As a bit of a digression, you should email me sometime with some anecdotes regarding your work... I would love to know more about it from someone who has the experience.

~~McCain

Djoser
01-17-2006, 02:55 AM
Thanks for the tip, JZ...

The movies almost always suck, compared to the book. Around here, no one has ever read the f*cking book, lol--so commenting that the book was better is likely to elicit a blank stare.