View Full Version : strippers vs. escorts: who would win?
Luke34
01-31-2006, 04:03 AM
What's that philosophical quote about 'its the journey and not the destination'.
Widget
02-01-2006, 01:04 PM
I think men who spend lots of money for fake romance do so because they are very rich or because they are tools. Same thing for spending lots of money on a girl while dating. A bit controversial on a dancers' website, but that why I don't see escorts, don't buy dances (unless mentally compromised by certain substances), and rarely spend more than $100/month on dancers or dates unless they are a lover/LTR.
Wwanderer
02-01-2006, 01:43 PM
I think men who spend lots of money for fake romance do so because they are very rich or because they are tools. Same thing for spending lots of money on a girl while dating. A bit controversial on a dancers' website, but that why I don't see escorts, don't buy dances (unless mentally compromised by certain substances), and rarely spend more than $100/month on dancers or dates unless they are a lover/LTR.
Imo, the fallacy in this perspective (which is a common one among guys who don't see escorts or go to SCs) is that it imagines that the only reason that a man would partake of commercial sex services (either escorts or SCs) is that he is unable to obtain sexual stimulation in any other (romantic or otherwise non-commercial) way. There definitely are such men, but an even remotely open minded look at actual commercial sex service customers reveals that they vary all over the map in their motivations and characteristics. A lot of the other possibilities are indicated in above posts in this thread, as well as in many other threads on SW/SCJ and elsewhere, but anyway, just to mention a few: Some guys want sexual connections to a wide variety of women because they get some particular thrill from each new partner/"conquest"; some want women/sex on a regular basis even when they are traveling extensively; some want it with women of ages and/or appearances that are unavailable to them romantically, at least for all practical purposes; some want it without the investments of time, energy and attention that romantic relationships involve (at least at some point during their lives); some want it to satisfy kinky desires that their romantic partners find distasteful (or worse!); some do it to enable themselves to maintain a marriage/relationship that is sexually unsatisfying for the benefit of their children (or their partners); some just do it for the pure fun of it, as a form of relaxation and recreation basically. And so on and so forth... For many, maybe even most, it is a combination of two or more of these reasons.
Fwiiw, I have underlined the motivations that are most important to me personally in the list above. I have been incredibly fortunate in my adult life, for nearly 4 decades now, at never having wanted for non-commercial sex partners - a significant number of truly wonderful women have accepted me as a lover and/or romantic interest for reasons that I truly do not understand (especially when I look in a mirror!), but that has not kept me from VERRY HAPPILY spending a quite a bit of money on escorts and dancers over the years and decades. So, I just don't think the above quoted analysis is realistic; more specifically, it is seriously incomplete.
Btw, I don't understand what you mean by the word "tool" in the quote.
-Ww
miabella
02-01-2006, 02:12 PM
he means 'simpleton' or 'sucker', wwanderer.
Wwanderer
02-01-2006, 02:18 PM
^ Thanks. Back in the '60s that word was used to refer to people who would be called geeks or nerds there days, at least in some places.
-Ww
Widget
02-01-2006, 02:25 PM
^^^Just my personal view.
I used to spend a lot of money on dances, but then quit wanting to. We want what we want. One can rationalize anything, joining the peace corps, paying for romance, becoming a doctor, using crack, converting to a religion, whatever. One person thinks its good, another person thinks its bad. What influenced my view is probably several women telling me the enigmatic statement "If you want something, just take it" and an article called "Dating Is For Tools". The question of the article was 'why spend money on women who may think you are a reject?' I do know that one can solve a lot of problems by throwing money at them, provided one has the money to keep throwing, but it may be more satisfying to accomplish it without the money.
Tool = one who is used or manipulated by others
Yekhefah
02-01-2006, 02:45 PM
Charlie Sheen said that when you hire a prostitute, you're not paying for sex. You're paying her to get up and leave afterward, and never call you. The transaction is appealing for its simplicity.
I had a good time at the Chicken Ranch, and I enjoy buying lapdances, but they're both very different. Most of the time I'd rather have the lapdance - it's cheaper, and in many ways, more fun.
Wwanderer
02-01-2006, 03:00 PM
^^^Just my personal view.
Understood, and of course I'm also just expressing a personal perspective.
paying for romance
My main point is that a lot of customers are not "paying for romance"; they may not be after romance at all. In fact, as Yekhefah points out
Charlie Sheen said that when you hire a prostitute, you're not paying for sex. You're paying her to get up and leave afterward, and never call you. The transaction is appealing for its simplicity.
In other words, their main goal may be to avoid romance.
it may be more satisfying to accomplish it without the money.
And it may be more satisfying still to do it both ways. Far back in this thread, I showed Nicolina (via off-site email) a small photo montage of the escorts I saw in one particular period of around 18 months (a few years), ago so that she could comment on their appearances as compared to those of dancers. I very seriously doubt that any guys, other than perhaps the most extremely hot looking and cool acting ones plus maybe a few celebrities, could bed such a large group of such attractive women in so short a period of time via any non-commercial route...and most certainly not without much more time and effort than it took me to hire them.
-Ww
Widget
02-01-2006, 04:42 PM
'Romance' was probably a poor word choice. I was going to say sex, but lap-dances and dating aren't sex, and then some people pay just for talk or company, so maybe 'female companionship' is better. So, paying for female companionship is not an attractive idea to me. I have heard some people say they'd rather pay for the lower risk of STDs with an escort than with casual-sex partners or one-night stands, which may be true or not, depending on how responsible the escort is.
Lurker
02-01-2006, 05:01 PM
Out of curiosity, is the difference for you between paying for lap dances/sex/talking and paying to, for example, see a movie:
1. That the person providing the service may have a neutral or negative opinion towards you, which makes the experience unenjoyable?
2. That female companionship can be had for free elsewhere, which makes it a suboptimal thing on which to spend part of a limited pool of funds?
3. An ethical distinction of some sort?
4. Strictly a cost issue (based on your comment about how men who do it are either rich or tools)?
5. Something else?
Widget
02-01-2006, 05:43 PM
Why do I feel a difference? Why are you curious? ;)
Mostly 1 and 2, though I haven't spent a lot of time on self analysis, so maybe 5 as well. 4 to a lesser issue and probably something of 3 for all I know. I'll tip $20-30 to the dancers for dancing, which I suppose is like paying to go to the movies. That seems fair to me. Would you pay $10 for a piece of toast in a restaurant? No. And I won't pay $20/song for female companionship. Would I pay $5/song? Maybe if she wanted to make out with me, but #1 comes into play still...
With regards to the very rich, they do crazy things like rent whole theatres to watch the movie, fly from new york to paris for dinner, give millions to charity, throw opening pitches at baseball games; The Sultan of Brunei pays models just to decorate the palace and gives waitresses $10,000 tips on $500 meals, they just live in another reality.
GoldCoastGirl
02-01-2006, 07:56 PM
All I can say is that it is definately different here in Australia! I frequent FunInAustralia Forums (http://www.funinaustralia.com) because it is geared more towards escorts than strippers whilst still acknowledging strippers/strip clubs (the different opinion intrigues me).
I know that here on the Gold Coast the brothels can only have 6 girls MAX on at a time whereas the strip clubs can have as little or many as they want.... oh yeh.. and that at around mid-night on the Gold Coast in re: brothels.. you'd be lucky to have 6 ladies.. more like 1-3.. so you have a greater choice at that time in a strip club than you would in a brothel locally.
I have never worked as an escort and do not really have any friends who are escrots so my opinions are very limited in this capacity. Just wanted to 'pipe in' with my limited knowledge so as to add another perspective.
Also, to expand on how it is like in other countries.
Wwanderer
02-01-2006, 10:10 PM
All I can say is that it is definately different here in Australia!
That's for sure! In my experience in Oz (mostly Melbourne and Sydney but a bit in Canberra and Cairns too), the strip clubs are pretty similar to those in the US, but the prostitution biz, and to a considerable extent the women working in it, are quite different from the escort scene in the US, generally better I would say.
I know that here on the Gold Coast the brothels can only have 6 girls MAX on at a time whereas the strip clubs can have as little or many as they want.... oh yeh.. and that at around mid-night on the Gold Coast in re: brothels.. you'd be lucky to have 6 ladies.. more like 1-3.. so you have a greater choice at that time in a strip club than you would in a brothel locally.
That does not seem to be the case in Melbourne/Victoria or Sydney/NSW where I have seen brothel public rooms the size of a smallish strip club *packed* with working ladies, so many that they could not all even find a place to sit...and that doesn't even account for those upstairs with customers in the private rooms at any given time. The selection can be close to overwhelming...in a nice way!
However, the brothels I saw in Canberra, particularly, and Cairns were pretty small and dismal by comparison. So, lots of variations even within Australia; it is at least partly a matter of local laws I believe.
Also, to expand on how it is like in other countries.
A lot could be said in this regard too; prostitution and its relationship with strip clubs varies enormously in different countries around the world. For example, in lots of Third World countries, strip clubs are just a particular form of brothel or outcall agency, in effect, not really about dancing or stripping to any significant extent. Europe is a whole different story too; for example, German FKK clubs have to be seen to be believed by someone who has only experienced commercial sex in the US or Australia, imo.
However, maybe SW is not the right site to get into all these fascinating details at too much length, but I very much agree with GCG that it is well worth realizing that the US scene is very far from being the whole story on this topic (and most others).
-Ww
Lurker
02-02-2006, 07:56 AM
Why do I feel a difference? Why are you curious? ;)
Really just curious how/why you compartmentalize the SC/sex industry experience as particularly for "tools" vs. other forms of leisure activity. Lots of people certainly do, and as you say there's no right or wrong when it comes to taste (though I guess from a societal standpoint there is if your tastes run to the antisocial or dangerous).
Mostly 1 and 2, though I haven't spent a lot of time on self analysis, so maybe 5 as well. 4 to a lesser issue and probably something of 3 for all I know. I'll tip $20-30 to the dancers for dancing, which I suppose is like paying to go to the movies. That seems fair to me. Would you pay $10 for a piece of toast in a restaurant? No. And I won't pay $20/song for female companionship. Would I pay $5/song? Maybe if she wanted to make out with me, but #1 comes into play still...
I think the ordering for the general populace of those reasons, in terms of prevalence, is probably 4,3,1,2. #4 most important because super-rich, famous, or powerful men, for whom cost is no issue, generally DO pursue commercial sex to the extent it suits them and they aren't getting it for free, so despite what anyone may pay lip service to it's normally a question of financial or other limitations. #3 because there are lots of people who simply wouldn't partake of the sex industry/SCs due to their belief system.
#1 is a biggie because commercial sex IS dramatically different than civilian sex, and you need to make sure that the actual satisfaction (physical and emotional) you derive from the experience is really worth the $$$ you're paying without the crutch of thinking that the vendor actually LIKES you. This can be a hard hurdle to surmount, and for people who DO go to SCs/escorts/what have you and then stop I'd guess this factor is big (as it is for you).
#2--I really have my doubts about #2. With SCs/escorts you generally get a level of attention from extremely attractive women that only really, really rich/famous/handsome/charming men get in real life. I can see that SCs/escorts compete for the same dollars as other leisure activities, I just don't see that you're "paying for something you can have for free" with a stripper or an escort. Unless you're Orlando Bloom or something, you can't just walk into a club and say, "I'd like YOU to dance on my lap in a sexually suggestive way, then YOU, YOU and I are going to go back to my hotel room and have a threesome." The fact that you can get laid by the mousy girl in the purchasing department or your roommate's college friend after 3 dates really doesn't compare. I think it still comes back to a funds issue.
With regards to the very rich, they do crazy things like...give millions to charity.
Sorry, I just thought this was a hilarious part of your post. That insane Bill Gates, spending money on children's health in the Third World!
Widget
02-03-2006, 04:17 PM
#2--I really have my doubts about #2. With SCs/escorts you generally get a level of attention from extremely attractive women that only really, really rich/famous/handsome/charming men get in real life. I can see that SCs/escorts compete for the same dollars as other leisure activities, I just don't see that you're "paying for something you can have for free" with a stripper or an escort. Unless you're Orlando Bloom or something, you can't just walk into a club and say, "I'd like YOU to dance on my lap in a sexually suggestive way, then YOU, YOU and I are going to go back to my hotel room and have a threesome." The fact that you can get laid by the mousy girl in the purchasing department or your roommate's college friend after 3 dates really doesn't compare. I think it still comes back to a funds issue.
Nope.
SportsWriter2
02-05-2006, 06:25 AM
Nic, someday you'll be teaching The Ecology of Gentlemen's Clubs. I think you're already the world's leading expert.
For me, a club is the easiest place to find bright "girl next door" college students who are also secret little freaks. They feel alone and guilty that way. They cannot trust people who would never understand.
They take a special delight in keeping it secret: "You know what turns me on most? No one would ever suspect US." Guilt is an awesome force when you learn how to use it.
It's not really about actual sex. It's more about connecting in a secret world. :)
smartcookie
02-06-2006, 06:13 PM
For me, a club is the easiest place to find bright "girl next door" college students who are also secret little freaks. They feel alone and guilty that way. They cannot trust people who would never understand.
They take a special delight in keeping it secret: "You know what turns me on most? No one would ever suspect US." Guilt is an awesome force when you learn how to use it.
It's not really about actual sex. It's more about connecting in a secret world. :)
*cough* *cough* ;D ;D ;D
You, my friend, are being hustled. Smart girls.
TarynJolie
02-06-2006, 07:05 PM
*cough* *cough* ;D ;D ;D
You, my friend, are being hustled. Smart girls.
Yup, LOL !
But your not supposed to spill the beans like that ;)
SportsWriter2
02-06-2006, 07:58 PM
Friends are people who use each other without feeling used. The jaded never see that. :-\
keira
02-24-2006, 02:16 PM
I only dance but get asked for sex all the time, guys do ask me why they should pay me this much to get a dance when they can go up the road and get full service for less (suposedly) I explain to them they are two different services and give them my spiel pointing out the benifits of having a dance, the stubborn ones I send off to the brothels telling them to go have a look and see what they actually can get for their money there, a lot of them come back and book me for a show, I don't think why a guy would chose one over the other is as complex as it's made out to be.
Just because they are both considered to be in the sex industry doesn't mean they are the same thing or that one is superior to the other, it's like saying all entertainment is the same thing, there's a difference between seeing a movie, a band, a show as there is a difference between playing football or fishing, doesn't make one a better activity than the other. It's what happens to appeal at that time. It's mixing up active and passive, different levels and types of intermacy.
It's how each of the various services available are viewed by the customer as to what he will see as being what is the best choice.
Oh BTW. I saw mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread about prostitutes having contempt for dancers because dancing is out in the open and prostitution is secluded (quote from a book?) Hate to burst the bubble but when people go quiet or whisper when you walk past, no matter how expensive and tasteful your dressed, they are not in awe, it means they know.
yoda57us
02-24-2006, 02:34 PM
Oh BTW. I saw mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread about prostitutes having contempt for dancers because dancing is out in the open and prostitution is secluded (quote from a book?) Hate to burst the bubble but when people go quiet or whisper when you walk past, no matter how expensive and tasteful your dressed, they are not in awe, it means they know.
Strangely enough, over the years I've heard just as many escorts bad-mouth dancers or dancing as I've heard dancers badmouth escorting. To confuse the issue even further I bought a Champagne room a few months ago from a dancer who used to escort and the last three escorts I've seen where all either current or former dancers.
I agree there there is a huge difference between the two professions but that doesn't make the two occupations mutualy exclusive to the same practicioners or customers.
By the way, Escorts aren't looking for "awe" and they don't care if you know.
keira
02-25-2006, 03:54 AM
I'm sure there are prostitutes out there who don't care who knows and frankly as long as they don't intefere with my business I don't care what they think or do, What I was saying is the quote trashing dancing for being in the open is not relying on a sound argument and the authors vanity at the idea her occupation was secret is self deceptive.
yoda57us
02-25-2006, 06:13 AM
I'm sure there are prostitutes out there who don't care who knows and frankly as long as they don't intefere with my business I don't care what they think or do.
Agreed, but I am curious about what your definition of interfering with your business would be. Every club I frequent has at least one or two dancers who do OTC for money. Obviously dancers who perform extras inside the club are a problem for girls who don't. Is a woman who will give a guy her to number and meet him at a motel for $200 after her shift hurting your business?
Wwanderer
02-26-2006, 10:15 PM
Oh BTW. I saw mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread about prostitutes having contempt for dancers because dancing is out in the open and prostitution is secluded (quote from a book?) Hate to burst the bubble but when people go quiet or whisper when you walk past, no matter how expensive and tasteful your dressed, they are not in awe, it means they know.
I think that this is the post you mean:
Strippers who feel superior to prostitutes would be shocked by the ways in which prostitutes look down on strippers: "How could they be so public about it???" "How could they be okay with having so many men looking at them every night?" "It's so classless!Those over-the-top outfits!...And those hideous shoes! They're like caricatures of sexy..." "How could they undervalue themselves like that, grinding on stranger's laps for a few dollars at a time, when they could be making $500 for a private and discreet half-hour with a trusted john? (During which a skilled provider doesn't have to do much of anything...?)"
Right? If so, I think that there is a small misunderstanding. The point is not that prostitutes feel superior to dancers because they think that no one knows that they are prostitutes (although this is indeed the case for some escorts), rather it is because they do their work in private and because it involves ordinary/real sex. They see the sexual services they provide as being very similar to "normal" romantic or hedonistic sex between two (or more) partners; the only difference is that their motives are financial rather than love or physical pleasure. By contrast they view dancers as providing some sort of degrading/humiliating public sexual spectacle, doing something for a room full of guys that most women never do even in private for their mates/SOs.
Fwiiw, personally I disagree with both dancers who look down on escorts as inferior and escorts who feel superior to dancers. Imo, both are basically motivated by a desire to to elevate their own form of sex work by demeaning the other.
-Ww
keira
04-27-2006, 09:06 AM
I'll clarify what I meant, here in Australia prostitution is legal within certain guidelines, it is illegal within venues that sell alcohol which are the venues I work in, interfering with my business would be doing something like giving "extras" at work putting the club at risk of losing their licence (we also have licensing police and undercovers who come in regularly in the hope of busting the club for something, they are pretty ruthless and the penalties are harsh) What people do on their own time I don't care so long as no-one expects me to be the same. The general theory in oz is if you want a stripper you go to a strip club, if you want a prostitute you go to a brothel since both are legal and regulated. As I understand it this is not the case in the US? For someone to do both in the same venue is here is frowned upon since there are a large range of legitamate options for girls who want to do either and without the downside of either dancing in public or having sex (if you happen to share either of those schools of thought)
I guess a degrading sexual public spectacle would depend on what the dancer is doing and who for, I have seen some pretty nasty acts but there are also a lot of dancers who take great pride in their appearance and shows, it is a performance for them, some use it as a way to express themselves, others see it as purely a performance. Degrading acts are not limited to one occupation or the other and I think it depends more on the individual concerned, what she will and won't do, I'm sure there are pleanty of workers who are disliked by their collegues because of what they do with their clients. Personally I like the idea of women being empowered by their work whatever that may be and I find the sex industry in general a place where it's a constant fight to gain and keep respect, I think a lot of women in the industry don't like to see a womans sexuality used in a way they would consider demeaning (ie something they would not do themselves) because it is a fear that people will think they do that too and will treat them badly because of that belief.
bianka
04-30-2006, 05:34 PM
i don't consider stripping part of the "sex industry" unless you are selling sex
Wwanderer
05-01-2006, 04:58 AM
i don't consider stripping part of the "sex industry" unless you are selling sex
It is just semantics of course, and we can all define words as we wish in our own usage, but fwiiw, the words "sex industry" are generally considered to include exotic/erotic ("adult entertainment") dancing. See for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_industry
or
http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/viol_sexind.html
Moreover, as the two links above show, this ordinary use of the term is not based on some assumption that strippers are all prostitutes also or anything along those lines.
-Ww
Wwanderer
05-01-2006, 05:09 AM
The general theory in oz is if you want a stripper you go to a strip club, if you want a prostitute you go to a brothel since both are legal and regulated. As I understand it this is not the case in the US? For someone to do both in the same venue is here is frowned upon since there are a large range of legitamate options for girls who want to do either and without the downside of either dancing in public or having sex (if you happen to share either of those schools of thought).
Right, the situation is quite different and much worse in many ways (imo) in the US. In the context of this point, the illegality of prostitution and of a lot of what goes on during lap dances in many jurisdictions (although often unenforced or enforced only occasionally) causes much more "blending" of dancing and prostitution than there would be if both were legal, again imo. From my perspective as a visiting American, the Australian commercial sex scene seems refreshingly sane and sensible.
Personally I like the idea of women being empowered by their work whatever that may be ...
In my experience, the best and most successful dancers and prostitutes are the ones who see their work in this way.
-Ww
JohnMarckof
10-28-2022, 01:24 PM
I'd say that the initial barrier to entry is low to none with SCs while escorts take time to plan. SCs are very open to whimsy and how you're feeling at the time, but with screening considerations it can take days to set up a meeting with an escort and who knows how you'll be feeling 3 days from now? I like both but it's nice to be able to go to a SC and tip for some stage shows and leave if I feel like it, or spend some time and take a girl to a private room for quite a while. My preferred club does generally have a lot of contact and girls are very independent. As for who would win, I've been to SCs way more than see escorts.
CFMNH44
10-28-2022, 07:40 PM
... And the award for reviving the oldest thread goes to... the poster above, LOL Although it was a trip down memory lane to see some of the names and avatars on this thread.
FrankieSkyPrivate
11-29-2022, 08:08 AM
it depends on what you are looking for at a certain moment. If I go to a strip club, it would be because I have some sexual need, but just to have fun with friends, have some drinks, watch the show and that's it, to me a strip club experience would be like going to a bar or a concert