View Full Version : Is Lap Dancing Prostitution?
doc-catfish
04-04-2006, 03:24 PM
The people need to be protected from themselves.
No we don't, and even if we did, such protection has never worked, in fact you can make a good case that in many respects it has actually backfired. Prostitution is one such case.
Prohibiting so called "undesirable" behaviors does nothing to make those behaviors go away, it just creates a lucrative underground market for organized criminals. Much of the seedy transient nature of strip clubs in fact, including the existance of extras, is because the business is already mired in a state of semi-legality.
onlythebest
04-04-2006, 03:30 PM
^^^This is the same exact thing as arguing making drugs legal.You either agree,or you don't.
Paris
04-04-2006, 04:09 PM
The people need to be protected from themselves.
Only until they are 18 years of age. After that they are adults that have to make choices and decisions on their own and are fully responsible for their own actions.
Otherwise, you end up with a totalitarian situation. And likely the religious right will be in control of such a society.
Saving our eternal souls and all.
Paris
04-04-2006, 04:14 PM
OTB, check out this novel illistrating what happens when average folks decide it is better to let our "leaders" decide what is right or wrong for us.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038549081X/sr=8-1/qid=1144192231/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2840350-0409446?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I read this book back in the late 80's and it was kind of scary for me to think about that such societies do exist in other nations around the world. It is sci-fi but it makes a huge social statement.
onlythebest
04-04-2006, 04:15 PM
I'm not saying make it a totalitarian society,but regulations on what goes on.
OTB, check out this novel illistrating what happens when average folks decide it is better to let our "leaders" decide what is right or wrong for us.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038549081X/sr=8-1/qid=1144192231/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2840350-0409446?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I read this book back in the late 80's and it was kind of scary for me to think about that such societies do exist in other nations around the world. It is sci-fi but it makes a huge social statement.
Was this book made into the movie by the same name???
yoda57us
04-04-2006, 04:47 PM
Ever watch the show on HBO about the Bunny Ranch? Those idiots are taken to a room and conned into paying very average looking women thousands of dollars for the same thing I just paid $300 for a couple of weeks ago. And the woman I paid was actualy hot looking! If legalizing prostitution means paying more to get less I'll pass thank you very much.
The fact is if prostitution was ever legalized it would be very heavily regulated. This regulation would in turn cause many providers to go underground in order to avoid having to register, submit to testing and paying taxes. In other words, nothing much would change.
doc-catfish
04-04-2006, 04:58 PM
I'm not saying make it a totalitarian society,but regulations on what goes on.
Yes, but when you outright prohibit something, you can't regulate it, which leads me to...
Otherwise, you end up with a totalitarian situation.
If the authorities have the ability to enforce said prohibition, then yes you have a totalitarian situation, but more often than not the authorities don't have such ability because they only have so many resources they can dedicate to that effort.
What often happens instead is that you have an outbreak of the very lawlessness the prohibition was intended to stop because there is no difference in penalties for breaking the law an inch versus breaking it a mile, so you might as well do the mile and make the extra money. The proliferation of extras in strip clubs over the last decade is one such result of this.
Call me crazy, but I think if lap dances with a decent yet moderated degree of contact were ever legally codified into the law books where dancers could do them without fear of being arrested, it might to some extent actually deter extras because then the girls would have more incentive to work within the bounds of the law.
onlythebest
04-04-2006, 04:59 PM
Yoda,you utilize the services of brothels???
doc-catfish
04-04-2006, 05:10 PM
Ever watch the show on HBO about the Bunny Ranch? Those idiots are taken to a room and conned into paying very average looking women thousands of dollars for the same thing I just paid $300 for a couple of weeks ago. And the woman I paid was actualy hot looking! If legalizing prostitution means paying more to get less I'll pass thank you very much.
The reason for the high prices that Nevada brothels charge is because as far as legal prostitution goes (and all the safety benefits that go with it), they pretty much have a monopoly on the market. If every major city in the U.S. had legal brothels within a reasonable drive, I think prices would come down considerably.
The fact is if prostitution was ever legalized it would be very heavily regulated. This regulation would in turn cause many providers to go underground in order to avoid having to register, submit to testing and paying taxes. In other words, nothing much would change.
That is true. Even in countries where prostitution is legal there are regulatory hoops that some people don't want to pay the time, effort or money to jump through.
And there are always people who are risk junkies. I've read through ASPD on a number of occassions and it amazes me that with all the providers that are there, many whom get very positive reviews and apparently work for a reasonable price, that a number of guys on those boards will openly state a preference towards cruising for streetwalkers. Different strokes I guess.
yoda57us
04-04-2006, 05:54 PM
Yoda,you utilize the services of brothels???
No OTB I don't use brothels, but I do see escorts including a few that are either current or retired dancers.
yoda57us
04-04-2006, 05:59 PM
The reason for the high prices that Nevada brothels charge is because as far as legal prostitution goes (and all the safety benefits that go with it), they pretty much have a monopoly on the market. If every major city in the U.S. had legal brothels within a reasonable drive, I think prices would come down considerably.
You may be right but I doubt they would fall to the $300 to $350 price range that many very good providers are working for right now. As far as safety issues I really don't see the big deal about what the ladies in Nevada go through. I've never gone near a provider without protection and none has ever offered BBS to me for any price. Any smart women on either the legal or illegal side of escorting is going to practice the same safety precautions.
onlythebest
04-04-2006, 06:02 PM
No OTB I don't use brothels, but I do see escorts including a few that are either current or retired dancers.
Suddenly,I am very curious about the on goings of your life.....
yoda57us
04-04-2006, 06:52 PM
Suddenly,I am very curious about the on goings of your life.....
Well, I've always been pretty open here about the various things I am willing to pay beautiful women for. Ask away! If it's too sordid for these boards I'll PM ya'}:D
Yoda since its pink here it might be...but we trust your judgement.
FBR
onlythebest
04-04-2006, 07:05 PM
Well, I've always been pretty open here about the various things I am willing to pay beautiful women for. Ask away! If it's too sordid for these boards I'll PM ya'}:D
OK,you can PM me.I don't frequent the "blue site" much,so I have no idea what is talked about there.You can dish to me about your encounters.;)
yoda57us
04-04-2006, 07:41 PM
Yoda since its pink here it might be...but we trust your judgement.
FBR
No worries FBR, I'm definitely not color blind and I would never post anything resembling a TR over here on the pink side. Just rolling with the conversational flow.....;)
Wwanderer
04-05-2006, 05:55 AM
Although lap dancing does meet the legal definition of prostitution in some jurisdictions, in a "real world" practical/informal sense they are usually pretty clearly different things from both the sex worker's and the customer's points of view, imo. In other words, the service(s), the venue, the fee, the expectations, the "business model" and so forth are all distinct from each other in major and obvious ways. There are certainly some places in the world where the differences, if any, are not so large, and I am sure that there are lots of individual cases one could mention that are in some sort of grey zone, but to the extent that we are talking about mainstream strip clubs vs traditional escorts/prostitutes in Western countries, lap dancing and prostitution are not really the same thing.
That said, they are very closely related imo. Lots of strippers also work as prostitutes, either at the same time they are dancers or at some point in their careers, and vice versa. Lots of the customers of of SCs also see escorts and vice versa. Lots of the attitudes (towards the activity and towards each other), motivations, perspectives, rationalizations, working condition issues and so forth are the same or extremely similar...and again for both the sex workers and their custormers in both industries, imo.
So, I think the answer to the question asked in this thread is "no, but it is a very closely related activity".
-Ww
kami_andrews
04-05-2006, 06:08 AM
... but I doubt they would fall to the $300 to $350 price range that many very good providers....
Provider? I remember that term from an old Star Trek. It's either a glowing brain in a glass case, or an Indian monolith. I'm a dork. Hi! :)
Wwanderer
04-05-2006, 07:39 AM
OTB, check out this novel illistrating what happens when average folks decide it is better to let our "leaders" decide what is right or wrong for us.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038549081X/sr=8-1/qid=1144192231/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2840350-0409446?%5Fencoding=UTF8
I read this book back in the late 80's and it was kind of scary for me to think about that such societies do exist in other nations around the world. It is sci-fi but it makes a huge social statement.
Having just returned last week from the Middle East, and not even one of its more repressive/fundamentalist nations, I can confirm that there are indeed societies in which "regulations on what goes on" (OTB's words) should make anyone (but especially women) be careful about wishing that the government would protect us from ourselves!
-Ww
TROU8LE~
04-05-2006, 08:56 AM
we're all prostitutes in some way
I'm not talking about dancers, but anyone that works for a living.
-That is so true!
Lurker
04-05-2006, 09:32 AM
You may be right but I doubt they would fall to the $300 to $350 price range that many very good providers are working for right now. As far as safety issues I really don't see the big deal about what the ladies in Nevada go through. I've never gone near a provider without protection and none has ever offered BBS to me for any price. Any smart women on either the legal or illegal side of escorting is going to practice the same safety precautions.
I agree w/Yoda that the safety issues don't seem to be that big a deal. But I totally agree w/Doc C that the reason prices are so high for ordinary-looking prostitutes in Nevada is because they are legal. The customer base will pay a lot for something that A) isn't a LE sting and B) is going to deliver what it promises in a safe environment. There is a lot of flakiness out there in the world of escorting/prostitution.
I also think prostitution should be legalized, in part because of the very issue raised in this thread--if a contact lap dance ISN'T prostitution, what is? Penetration? Orgasm? It starts to seem very arbitrary, at least to me. I think it's a very personal decision and best left to the individuals involved.
I generally feel the same about drugs, though if I was confronted with compelling evidence about the societal damage done by the legalization of "hard" drugs I'd probably change my mind. For now, though, I'm for decriminalization.
Djoser
04-05-2006, 09:50 AM
I sure as hell don't need to be protected from myself--especially not by some legislator or cop who is doing far worse things than I would dream of, but can get away with it due to their position of power in society.
Or perhaps they used to do it, but found God and are really, really sorry--so no one else gets to do it or they go to jail.
Right...
So long as something harmless is illegal, and people are getting arrested for it, you have a large number of people who are criminalized, and large amounts of taxpayer dollars tied up prosecuting, defending (public defenders), and incarcerating people who otherwise could be productive members of society.
We have overburdened courts, and way more non-violent offenders being imprisoned for no good reason than is necessary--where they are likely to become much more violent by nature, even if motivated largely by self-defense.
The situation right now is ridiculous--if the laws on the books were enforced most of us here in this forum would be in jail. Saying if they aren't enforced means they can't hurt us isn't really accurate, since at any time and for whatever reason someone decided to crack down, everything is in place making it a simple matter to enforce atavistic laws.
This happened in Daytona for about a year and a half.
The fact that laws against prostitution are in place means that old ladies and uptight assholes everywhere can consider all strippers prostitutes, and all men who work with them pimps, in the eyes of the Law, and their patriarchical, judgemental version of God.
Decriminalizing prostitution would cause some distress, but would be far more useful than the present situation. It would in the long run make it easier to avoid the current confusion in the minds of so many people, where the difference between dancers and prostitutes is concerned.
leogirl876
04-05-2006, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=Djoser
Decriminalizing prostitution would cause some distress, but would be far more useful than the present situation. It would in the long run make it easier to avoid the current confusion in the minds of so many people, where the difference between dancers and prostitutes is concerned.[/QUOTE]
I absolutely agree with that!
Wwanderer
04-05-2006, 12:29 PM
Decriminalizing prostitution would cause some distress, but would be far more useful than the present situation. It would in the long run make it easier to avoid the current confusion in the minds of so many people, where the difference between dancers and prostitutes is concerned.
Agreed...and it is not really a matter or opinion or speculation, in that legal prostitution is a reality in many countries and works quite nicely. Furthermore it exists in reasonable harmony with the SC industry in most of these places. So, we pretty well know that it can work.
-Ww
laplover69
04-05-2006, 02:32 PM
I'm all for decriminalizing or legalizing prostitution, which should be left up to the STATES i.e. Nevada. Unfortunately with the Religious right and the Republican party still in power this probably never will happen except for maybe in a few states (Oregon, Rhode Island)?? It's sad that some clubs are busted strictly for a clothed lapdance, just to appease some local religious organization like the CCV or CDC. It's absurd where our taxdollars go for CONSENSUAL crime enforcement where no harm is being done to anyone other than PERHAPS the partakers. Isn't there a party truly for LESS GOVERNMENT in peoples lives that we can empower like the Libertarians? Nothing will change in this country when we have either Republican or Democrats in charge when it comes to issues involving family values/morality, although I would have to say that the Democrats GENERALLY aka Bill Clinton's are the lesser of two evils. Canada seems to have prostitution laws about the way they should be in the USA.
I do think that decriminalizing the industry would be good. It certainly would be good for club owners who would save on legal fees. An owner and the market place could determine the type of club. It could be upscale, very clean, or sleazy. Dancers and patrons would have a clearer understanding of what was expected. People could openly discuss what was allowed and what was not.
I also believe that it would greatly benefit the dancers that wanted to be very clean. Consider that many patrons go to clubs where they can spend time with pretty girls that are unattainable to them, that would make the girls in a clean club have a certain mystic and increase the fantasy.
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 03:18 PM
I am against the legalization of prostitution ... this thread has certainly spurred some interesting insights.
Here's a question - why is any opinion that is the slightest bit conservative blamed viciously on the 'religious right' or some other snide comment about any form of religion or God.
Are we all supposed to be liberal athiests just because we're dancers (or SC patrons, even)? Someone explain this to me?
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 03:19 PM
And I'll be the loner that agrees with OTB's position... ;D
onlythebest
04-05-2006, 03:24 PM
And I'll be the loner that agrees with OTB's position... ;D
Awww,thanks sweetie.
*MUAH*
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 03:27 PM
im tellin you, OTB... great minds 8)
NOW run!! Before the flaming begins!!!!
Paris
04-05-2006, 04:06 PM
I found this article here:
legalizing prostitution (http://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/prostitution_legalizing.html)
That y'all might find interesting.
And Tampadancer, whether you like it or not, you work in the sex industry and most "average" americans think of what you do for a living as prostitution. Even the most hard core hookers have their "limits" of what is okay and what is not in the line of duty.
I totally respect your conseravtive views, and that is your opinion. But it kind of seems like you are shooting yourself in the foot by wishing for the demise of the industry.
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 04:11 PM
where did my comment suggest I wanted to see the demise of the industry?? I said that prostitution should remain illegal.. and I'm a dancer. How is that shooting myself in the foot?
doc-catfish
04-05-2006, 04:29 PM
Here's a question - why is any opinion that is the slightest bit conservative blamed viciously on the 'religious right' or some other snide comment about any form of religion or God.
Because some folks with liberal viewpoints like to portray their kind as friends of the sex industry and therefore anyone with an opinion contrary to theirs would be an enemy of such.
The slightest look into the women's studies department of most universities in this country would dispel this myth in a second, as would the fact that some of the most sucessful strip clubs in the country happen to be in convervative states and cities (Texas, Phoenix, Atlanta), and that some of the most restrictive ordinances are in traditionally liberal areas (Massachusetts, California, Seattle).
The fact is that a lot of liberals want to stamp out the sex industry just like a lot of conservatives do, their motivation for doing it is just slightly different. As I've stated many times on this board, the political battle over the sex industry is a libertarian vs. statist one, not a liberal vs. conservative one.
And while I respect the opinions here of those who oppose legalizing prostitution, I think I'd be safe to say that said opinions are to some degree borne of economic self interest rather than what might be generally best for society. That be advocating restriction of the consumer's other choices, that the consumer will be forced to choose you. It's no different really than the unionized grocery employees in some states fighting their damndest to keep a non-unionized entity like Wal-Mart from building Supercenters where they live.
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 04:54 PM
Because some folks with liberal viewpoints like to portray their kind as friends of the sex industry and therefore anyone with an opinion contrary to theirs would be an enemy of such.
The slightest look into the women's studies department of most universities in this country would dispel this myth in a second, as would the fact that some of the most sucessful strip clubs in the country happen to be in convervative states and cities (Texas, Phoenix, Atlanta), and that some of the most restrictive ordinances are in traditionally liberal areas (Massachusetts, California, Seattle).
The fact is that a lot of liberals want to stamp out the sex industry just like a lot of conservatives do, their motivation for doing it is just slightly different. As I've stated many times on this board, the political battle over the sex industry is a libertarian vs. statist one, not a liberal vs. conservative one.
And while I respect the opinions here of those who oppose legalizing prostitution, I think I'd be safe to say that said opinions are to some degree borne of economic self interest rather than what might be generally best for society. That be advocating restriction of the consumer's other choices, that the consumer will be forced to choose you. It's no different really than the unionized grocery employees in some states fighting their damndest to keep a non-unionized entity like Wal-Mart from building Supercenters where they live.
thank you for your explanation - I agree with most of what you said.
And of course I am against the legalization of prostitution because I think it would potentially negatively impact my finances. So yes, my opinions are definitely somewhat influenced by self interest - aren't all opinions usually somewhat swayed by an issues impact on that person individually? However, your statement also suggested that the legalization of prostitution would be what is "generally best for society." (unless I am misunderstanding you) How is legalizing prostitution good for society as a whole??
onlythebest
04-05-2006, 05:04 PM
How is legalizing prostitution good for society as a whole??
That's a damned good question.
doc-catfish
04-05-2006, 05:30 PM
However, your statement also suggested that the legalization of prostitution would be what is "generally best for society." (unless I am misunderstanding you) How is legalizing prostitution good for society as a whole??
Well, let me flip that question on you. How is prohibiting prostitution good for society as a whole??
Its not really a matter that prostitution per se is a good or bad, it's comparing the postive and negative impacts that both legalization and prohibition would bring forth and deciding which would be the better fork in the road to take. With regards to the status quo, I think society can do better.
Its very similar to the argument that proponents of legalizing drugs make, not to say that drug use is good, but that people are going to do drugs anyway and that the efforts being made to curb said undesirable behavior are actually backfiring and exasperating the very problem those efforts were intended to solve.
I do also point out, that legalization does not neccesarily mean full legalization. I for instance would support the idea of a safe incall environment very similar to the brothels in rural Nevada, with required condom usage and monthly STD testing for providers (and possibly clients as well). I however, would not support the idea of streetwalkers (even licensed ones) setting up shop on a downtown street corner, or inside of a strip club for that matter.
onlythebest
04-05-2006, 05:34 PM
The only way I'll agree with legalization is doing it out of the city limits/county line just like Nevada.
Lurker
04-05-2006, 05:53 PM
It's a bit like abortion...the only people that are FOR abortion are the consumers and providers of the service. But most Americans agree that it should be available legally because of A) freedom of choice issues and B) the alternative is that people will do it anyway, in venues and through channels which are much more dangerous for several reasons (as well as create the possibility of criminal involvement and/or enrichment).
The same issues (nobody is FOR it except consumers and producers; people get it regardless of its illegality in more dangerous ways than they would otherwise and criminals often benefit as a result) are present in drugs and prostitution.
TifaRae
04-05-2006, 06:48 PM
I read this Robert Ebert quote too, in his review of Memoirs of a Geisha, that said "whatever 'isn't technically prostitution' is prostitution".
That guy is an ignorant douche. Geisha are in no way prostitutes.
TifaRae
04-05-2006, 06:55 PM
In Memoirs of a Geisha, she was a prostitute! She was sold into sex slavery and had no choice, but even though geisha often just entertain, it's considered a status thing have a sugar daddy that they have sex with (according to the book).
Kinda getting off the topic, but I was suprised to learn that.
No. No. No. I've read that book 7 times over the course of 7 years and the book does nothing to perpetuate this annoying myth. Neither does the movie. I've read Geisha by Liza Dalby and numerous articles about geisha online.
A danna (sugar daddy) is something that's extremely archaic, anyways. He would pay for a geisha's schooling and fees, after he formally took her on as a mistress in a ceremony. That's like calling a concubine a prostitute.
The mizuage is even more old fashioned, and yes, that is very literally prostitution, but sometimes would not even happen (even in the old days) and only was a small moment in the life of a true geisha.
The girls were not sold into sex slavery, they were sold through Mr. Tanaka, someone who could channel them into fitting areas of society. Sayuri was geisha material, whereas her sister Satsu was sold to a brothel.
Silky
04-05-2006, 07:16 PM
Im not sure how much time per state is being dedicated by law enforcement on agency busts (ect ect.), but I feel that this time could be put to much better use battling murders...robberies...societie's real harmful issues. Agencies are minding their business anyway.
The problem of streetwalkers, which i see as a legitimate concern for opposition, would most likely be solved by allowing them to work in safe conditions. Also, the idea of strung out streetwalkers being thrown in jail every other week disgusts me too because they are not getting any real "help" for themselves in the long run. The movie "Monster" pisses me off in the beginning. Decriminilization would only possibly help make more programs acceptable to counsel women of this mindset and ensure people are in this profession for the right mindset.(These are my speculations and opinions)
Women and men who choose prostitution still will do it...and still will look for what they really want. A man in a strip club will hardly settle for a low contact lap dance if it's not what he wants. Any man that does settle for it usually is a pain in the ass and more trouble than it is worth. In my opinion, I would rather work in an enviroment where i am more sure of the boundaries and what my customers want. There is no guarantee it would make it better, but I think decriminalization of prostitution would help. I would need to know that there would be separate establishments per activity, and clear boundaries being enforced. This way, I do not have a bunch of men coming into my strip club because they now think they can get legal sex or something lol. To me, potential loss of some income is worth clearing the boundaries of my job better if possible.
I now see drugs as a little different only because they have the power to influence addicts to harm others in order to get their "fix". Prostitutes and customers do not propose this same danger. I still agree that the drug problem wont go away regardless of it's legality though.
Wwanderer
04-05-2006, 07:54 PM
How is legalizing prostitution good for society as a whole??
It is a good question indeed; here are a few answers that spring immediately to mind:
- It can (if regulated appropriately) substantially reduce the spread of STDs via prostitution (which will go on whether legal or not, of course) by requiring health checks, safe sex practices and so forth.
- It reduces the risk of violent crimes and robberies against both prostitutes and their customers by bringing both under the protection of ordinary criminal law and LE.
- It removes or greatly reduces an area of activity and major source of income for organized crime, thus weakening its power in society in general. (It is no accident that prohibition was the period of US history in which gangsters were the most successful and influential; if you make something a large fraction of the adult population wants to do illegal, you create an instant "market" for organized crime.)
- It frees up LE resources (cops, courts, prison space etc) for more important uses, fighting violent crime for example.
- It allows taxation of economic activity that is otherwise largely unreported and invisible, thus reducing the tax burden on other parts of the economy and/or giving the govt extra resources to use for other general social purposes.
- It increases overall respect for the law and the legal system; in other words, laws that cannot be enforced effectively make breaking the law in general more acceptable to people.
- It makes people healthier and happier because sex is one of the good things in life, even commercial sex.
- Perhaps most importantly, it increases the personal liberty/freedom of individuals in the conduct of their private affairs and reinforces the principles of personal responsibility for one's own choices and actions.
I'm sure that we could think of more points with a little effort; these are just some of the ones tha seem obvious to me.
-Ww
threlayer
04-05-2006, 08:07 PM
Ww is correct as stated above.
But... "It allows taxation of economic activity that is otherwise largely unreported and invisible, thus reducing the tax burden on other parts of the economy and/or giving the govt extra resources to use for other general social purposes." This obviously doesn't work for most strippers already (mostly small-timers I guess); so why would it work for prostitutes?
Wwanderer
04-05-2006, 08:19 PM
But... "It allows taxation of economic activity that is otherwise largely unreported and invisible, thus reducing the tax burden on other parts of the economy and/or giving the govt extra resources to use for other general social purposes." This obviously doesn't work for most strippers already (mostly small-timers I guess); so why would it work for prostitutes?
It wouldn't/doesn't work perfectly no doubt; cheating on taxes is always a tempting possibility in any cash-for-service business of course. However, the legality of the income does make it more likely to be reported and makes it possible to monitor at least some parts of the "industry". For example, legal brothels can be required to keep detailed business and financial records; the "Daily Planet" chain of brothels in Australia is a public corp, traded on a stock exchange, and is thus subject to all of the usual audit requirements and so forth. So, DP has to pay its taxes on the same basis as any other corporation (an extreme example to be sure, but makes the point). Less extreme example - legal brothels and agencies often accept credit cards and thus have a traceable (and therefore more likely to be reported) income stream. Etc.
-Ww
We need to move back on topic. This is not a thread about prostitution in general but whether or not dancing can be tossed into that catagory. I know its easy to drift but try and stay on point.
Thanks for keeping the thread conversations clean and mature. This topic could get squirrelly and potentially piss people off but so far everyone has been cool.
Thanks,
FBR
tampadancer
04-05-2006, 08:57 PM
Forgive me for staying a little off topic, but I had to respond to wwanderer (It's refreshing to debate and toss ideas back and forth without getting heated)
- It can (if regulated appropriately) substantially reduce the spread of STDs via prostitution (which will go on whether legal or not, of course) by requiring health checks, safe sex practices and so forth.
Is the spread of STD's really to be blamed so strongly on prostitutes? STD's are spread by people from all walks of life, not just prostitutes, so the potential reduction of STD's from prostitutes is such a small percentage of the population that it probably is not even worth mentioning.
- It removes or greatly reduces an area of activity and major source of income for organized crime, thus weakening its power in society in general. (It is no accident that prohibition was the period of US history in which gangsters were the most successful and influential; if you make something a large fraction of the adult population wants to do illegal, you create an instant "market" for organized crime.) I agree with you here
- It frees up LE resources (cops, courts, prison space etc) for more important uses, fighting violent crime for example. This is assuming that the opening of brothels, which would employ a higher class of women (I presume), would annihilate so-called 'street prostitutes.' Think about the average woman that walks the streets, selling her body. This woman is generally not what you would see at the bunny ranch. Just because brothels open up down the street does not mean that said woman will be able to get a job working there. She will still need to make money - so she will still walk the streets... so really, how much would the legalization of prostitution put an end to the street hookers that police are using resources to combat?
Additionally, I think it's safe to assume that most of the women who have been working the streets for a given amount of time have already contracted some form of sexually transmitted disease or virus. Working, legally, as a prostitute would not be possible for her because she already has an STD. What does this woman do? She keeps working the streets. My point is, would legalization really change the number of street prostitutes?
- It allows taxation of economic activity that is otherwise largely unreported and invisible, thus reducing the tax burden on other parts of the economy and/or giving the govt extra resources to use for other general social purposes. This is assuming that all women who are prostitutes are working in an establishment. If they worked independently, the odds of them reporting any income is pretty slim. I've met a LOT OF DANCERS that have looked at me like I was from another planet when asked and questioned about taxes or reporting income
- It increases overall respect for the law and the legal system; in other words, laws that cannot be enforced effectively make breaking the law in general more acceptable to people. Aaah, this is a stretcher...lalws are either respected or disregarded, and that has a lot to do with culture, background and economic status, as well as individual morals and beliefs. I obey laws because, well, they're laws.. not because they are hard to break. Other people will break laws because, well, they're laws... not because they're easy to break.
- It makes people healthier and happier because sex is one of the good things in life, even commercial sex. This is where my personal qualm with legalized prostitution comes in... which I know is irrelevant to the impact of the issue on society as a whole. However, buying sex just seems so crass to me. I know, I know.. I am too romantic and idealistic sometimes :)
- Perhaps most importantly, it increases the personal liberty/freedom of individuals in the conduct of their private affairs and reinforces the principles of personal responsibility for one's own choices and actions. I agree with your point here
Wwanderer
04-06-2006, 06:03 AM
Forgive me for staying a little off topic, but I had to respond to wwanderer (It's refreshing to debate and toss ideas back and forth without getting heated)
FBR, let me/us know if you want this taken to PMs or moved into a separate/new thread (which I guess you could do yourself), please. It does seem to me an interesting and civil discussion that is doing no harm.
Is the spread of STD's really to be blamed so strongly on prostitutes? STD's are spread by people from all walks of life, not just prostitutes, so the potential reduction of STD's from prostitutes is such a small percentage of the population that it probably is not even worth mentioning.
I agree with you that the role of prostitution in spreading STDs is probably not all THAT large, but not everyone agrees. It is often mentioned as one of the major negative social impacts of prostitution. The basic point is logical, namely that one prostitute with a STD and not using condoms is likely to infect a very much larger number of partners (and thus, in turn, the non-commercial partners of their customers too) than any but the most extremely promiscuous non-prostitutes. Somewhat ironically, one of the major reasons that it is hard to determine the truth of the matter is that prostitution is illegal and thus carried out covertly...so definitive research on the topic is difficult. In any case, based on personal experience, I can report that use of condoms and general concern with STDs is much greater among legal prostitutes than illegal ones, so it at least goes in the right direction even if it is not such a big problem for society as a whole.
This is assuming that the opening of brothels, which would employ a higher class of women (I presume), would annihilate so-called 'street prostitutes.' Think about the average woman that walks the streets, selling her body. ...
All your points re this aspect make good sense to me, and I am sure that legalization does not completely eliminate street prostitution and the burden on LE resources of suppressing it. Again, however, it goes in the right direction and is positive on the margin. Street prostitutes are the easiest/cheapest for LE to deal with (because they are out in the open), and I think that legal options do greatly reduce the customer base of street walkers, especially if it is not too expensive. For most guys, a legal brothel is a much more attractive option than street prostitution.
This is assuming that all women who are prostitutes are working in an establishment. If they worked independently, the odds of them reporting any income is pretty slim.
I would argue that there is a social benefit even if it does not result in ALL prostitutes reporting ALL of their income; it again goes in the right direction, helps on the margin and perhaps fairly significantly. Even if liscensed independents are likely to under report, I'd think that they would feel it necessary to pay taxes on at least some of their prostitution income since it is easier for the tax authorities to identify them and an audit would require them to explain their expenditures and so forth.
Aaah, this is a stretcher...lalws are either respected or disregarded, and that has a lot to do with culture, background and economic status, as well as individual morals and beliefs. ...
I'd have to agree that this claim is debatable (a stretch), and once more I wouldn't claim that it applies to everyone in any case, but there is some evidence, imo, to support the assertion. Ask experienced managers, teachers or parents about the effect of a lot of unenforced/unenforceable rules on their employees, students or children (respectively); I think many will tell you that such situations undermine their authority more generally and make for less compliance with the important rules they really care about. Basically it is about the psychology of (SOME people's) respect for authority.
This is where my personal qualm with legalized prostitution comes in... which I know is irrelevant to the impact of the issue on society as a whole. However, buying sex just seems so crass to me. I know, I know.. I am too romantic and idealistic sometimes :)
I regard being idealistic and romantic as good traits, in general, so nothing to apologize for, imo.
More to the point, I think that most people, including most guys (despite a lot of macho posturing from some), think that romantic sex, or even friendly casual sex, is a lot more appealing than commercial sex...a lot less crass. Few (but some) prefer buying sex to finding sexual partners in other ways. However, note that this is not always an option. Some people are very unattractive, sometimes in ways they could do something about but in other cases not. And consider the sexual options of people with severe physical handicaps or deformities. Then there are people who are sexually dysfunctional (a very substantial fraction of their customers, most prostitutes will tell you) or whose personality/psychology (such as very low self-esteem) prevent them from finding partners. There are people who are so busy with their careers or other obligations, at some points in their life, that they have little or no time and energy left for a social life. There are people whose work keeps them away from home for extended periods etc. You might make a comparison to "fast food", which in many ways is crass compared to a lovingly home cooked meal or buying a gourmet feast in a fancy restaurant (both far more romantic/appealing than a Big Mac), but sometimes "fast food" places are a perfect practical solution given the other constraints in one's life.
And, of course, in any case we presumably don't want to start making things illegal because they are crass, right? I mean what would happen to reality TV shows, Paris Hilton and (for that matter, in the opinions of many) exotic dancing?
-Ww
tampadancer
04-06-2006, 07:30 AM
And, of course, in any case we presumably don't want to start making things illegal because they are crass, right? I mean what would happen to reality TV shows, Paris Hilton...
And the problem with this would be... ??
and (for that matter, in the opinions of many) exotic dancing?
What?!? You mean there are crass dancers out there?!? ;D
Thanks for taking the time to explain your stance. Although it has not changed my opinion, I do understand the debate FOR the legalization of prostitution much better now.
Djoser
04-06-2006, 08:09 AM
Here's a question - why is any opinion that is the slightest bit conservative blamed viciously on the 'religious right' or some other snide comment about any form of religion or God.
Are we all supposed to be liberal athiests just because we're dancers (or SC patrons, even)? Someone explain this to me?
No, you aren't.
But the kind of people who think of you unhesitatingly as a prostitute, in spite of your undoubted class and admirable moral stance on the issue of dancing, are dead wrong. Not all religious people are guilty of this, but many hardcore types are.
I can't stand the type of person who would misjudge you and anyone else in this business, without knowing what you are all about. They are dead wrong.
I talk about the religious right in most uncomplimentary terms, since they would like to grant you and I and everyone here on this forum the status of sex offender. Even the guys who have paid for prostitutes but would probably never admit it to you.
Personally, I dislike all politicians, especially the ones who think God is on their side. There seem to be quite a few more Republicans with that view than there are Democrats. Though the Democrats are as full of shit when they claim to be correct about everything as the Republicans are if they do the same. Or Libertarians, or Socialists.
No one is always right about anything. Not me, not you, and not anyone else on this forum.
However, if it is my posting which has offended you, I'm sorry to hear that, you are a woman of great intelligence and and considerable charm. I would hate to think this would interfere with mutual respect, that would be my loss--and I believe yours as well, though of course you may not agree if you choose.
Wwanderer
04-06-2006, 08:20 AM
And the problem with this would be... ??
Touche', a point for you.
What?!? You mean there are crass dancers out there?!? ;D
Well, I wouldn't want to shock or upset anyone, but to be honest, I have met two or three dancers during my decades of strip club patronage who were not perfect models of refined and proper lady-like behavior (especially during "floor work")...not that I am complaining! ;)
Thanks for taking the time to explain your stance. Although it has not changed my opinion, I do understand the debate FOR the legalization of prostitution much better now.
And thank you for the interesting exchange...and for demonstrating that it is possible to disagree about a controversial topic on SW without the conversation turning mean spirited. Also, for my part, I do see it as a topic on which there are legit pros and cons on both sides...an issue about which reasonable people can disagree in other words. It is pretty complicated, and even if/where it is legalized, there are still a lot of "judgement call" type questions about how it should be regulated, licensed etc.
-Ww