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TarynJolie
04-04-2006, 12:43 AM
I saw this (http://cagle.msnbc.com/news/flag/flag4.asp) cartoon today and it got me thinking and curious to know what other people think about the Confederate Flag.

What does it mean to you ? What does it stand for in these modern times and does that differ from what it stood for in the past ?

Emily
04-04-2006, 12:48 AM
I see it as a symbol of hatred.

Blade
04-04-2006, 01:07 AM
What does the Confederate flag mean to me......
It's a symbol of rebellion, a symbol of pride, and the logo for my tongue in cheek racing team( White Trash Racing,lol) and it's the logo for my clothing line - Redneck Punk
I've never associated it with hate, seeing as it was one of the first flags in our nation...maybe I'm strange but the Confederate flag and the American flag both stand out as symbols of hope,pride and history

Susan Wayward
04-04-2006, 01:15 AM
^^ It's just that it represents a particular nasty part of history. I'm all about the Southern pride and am fond of my heritage--the music and food are better down there--but by god, that flag represented a group of people who wanted to own another group of people, and there's just no way to make that inoffensive.

Now, Blade, I have no doubt that you lack a racist bone in your body, but be aware that for a lot of people, that flag instantly brands its bearers as big honking racist rednecks who should have fun with that "state's rights" argument in downtown Detroit.

Djoser
04-04-2006, 01:32 AM
Being from the north--Detroit actually--I never had much opinion about the flag, and I mostly saw it in military history books.

But get this, when I was a senior in high school in Maine, my mom told her employers to shove it, in considerably nicer but firm language, and we had a big party for her. To mark the house for guests I painted a rebel flag--as in rebel, which she surely was in that situation.

I liked the flag I had painted, and hung it in my dorm room on the south side of Chicago. One of my good friends, a guy who turned me onto the best funk out there, was a black guy I worked with.

Boy did he hate that flag...

I tried to explain it had nothing to do with slavery or even blacks in my mind whatsoever, and he didn't ever really get it, and I can't say that I blame him. I can't remember if I took it down then or not, but I've hung it less since then--right now it's carefully saved in one of the boxes in storage.

cinammonkisses
04-04-2006, 05:20 AM
Seeing that flad makes me very uncomfortable. There is a girl at my club who has a confederate outfit on that she wears on the weekend. I can spot her from a mile away, but I avoid her at all costs when she wears it. I can't help but roll my eyes.

Most confederate flag men who come to my club leave the stage when I get up there, or give disgusted looks at me when I walk the room. I see this...

kinda_normal_guy
04-04-2006, 05:52 AM
Just so we don't start with the wrong history lesson, the Civil War was not initially about ending slavery and its amazing to me how we have almost come full circle on what the Civil War was really started over.

The Civil War started and was fought move over states rigths than slavery. Lincoln only made the war about slavery as a political move when the war was going badly and France was about to enter on the side of the Confederacy.

Today (maybe the last 20 years) we have seen a big move in the same direction, towards states rights and away from a big federal government (its not working but thats another issue). More and more people think the federal government is out of touch with their issues and want the states and local governemnt to have more of a say. Almost exactly the same issues that started the Civil War.

As for the flag, if you don't like it, don't ever go to a NASCAR race, I'd never seen so many Confererate flags in my life

soybeangirl
04-04-2006, 05:54 AM
I live right on the Tennessee/Georgia Line. Literally. I see this flag all the time and I honestly don't even give it a second thought. In the South this flag has very different meanings. Lots of southern people are VERY and perhaps TOO proud of where they are from. They take pride in their laidback lifestyle and funny accent and fattening foods. This flag, to them, is representative of being southern and nothing more. There are also those who take the flag and it's meaning to a much more hateful level like racism.

I personally don't identify with the flag at all.

former_LV_dancer
04-04-2006, 06:00 AM
I smell poo.......this topic is WAY too touchy.....we've been here before.

Blade, White Trash Racing....like it. Don't forget the image of Miss Britney Spears on a racecar barefoot eating a big bowl of mac-n-cheese with her fingers......;D

WiseGuy_TX
04-04-2006, 06:03 AM
I'm with Blade, Djoser and KN_Guy. The flag, back in its day, also represented many things other than slavery. Pick up a book or google it and read about it. It's pathetic that certian groups or certian people, today, want to use it only as a symbol of racism/hatred. Whereas, some people like Blade dont use it that way.

There are many flags in the world that represent the rights and beliefs of a people. There are people in the world that believe the American flag is a symbol of evil. Perhaps they are not understanding all it represents either.

leilanicandy
04-04-2006, 07:25 AM
The Cofederate Flag is a symbol of Hatred! The only reason why the south got that flag. Was because they did not want to agree with the goverment, when it came to freeing those slaves. Because they felt black me was not equal to them and that they where those white people property! I had pay attention in US history! The confederate flag was to respesent thier new country and thier beliefs of keeping black inslaves. Nobody stupids! But what gose around comes around! Karma is a real bitch!

lunchbox
04-04-2006, 07:29 AM
It's context to me.

Flying at Stone Mountain = not bad.
As a tattoo next to a swastika = bad.
Hanging outside of a KA fraternity house = not bad.
Being carried by a color guard in white hoods = bad.
etc. etc. etc....

Rhiannon
04-04-2006, 07:34 AM
This is heading to Member Boards, because 1) It is definitely Poo-ish, and 2) A discussion about the Confederate Flag already took place in a thread about the Dukes Of Hazzard. Link is below, so you'll get an idea of how well it went over.

Prester_John
04-04-2006, 08:48 AM
Just so we don't start with the wrong history lesson, the Civil War was not initially about ending slavery and its amazing to me how we have almost come full circle on what the Civil War was really started over.

The Civil War started and was fought move over states rigths than slavery. Lincoln only made the war about slavery as a political move when the war was going badly and France was about to enter on the side of the Confederacy.

Today (maybe the last 20 years) we have seen a big move in the same direction, towards states rights and away from a big federal government (its not working but thats another issue). More and more people think the federal government is out of touch with their issues and want the states and local governemnt to have more of a say. Almost exactly the same issues that started the Civil War.

As for the flag, if you don't like it, don't ever go to a NASCAR race, I'd never seen so many Confererate flags in my life

You are utterly wrong. The paramount issue that caused the Civil War was slavery. Abraham Lincoln had supported the ending of slavery from his early days as a Congressman. His election to a party and a platform that was negative to slavery was the final impetus for South Carolina to secede in December 1860, and the other slave holding states followed suit.

If one doesnít believe this, all one needs to do is read the Secession Ordinances of both Georgia and South Carolina. Both specifically mention the preservation of slavery.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/secession_causes.htm.

In the above link is the Official Statement put forth by South Carolina. In it it states

..."The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery (http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/july/slave-auction.htm), has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. "

It was written by C .C. Memminger, who would go on to be the Secretary of the Treasury for the Confederacy.

The issue of States Rights would never have come to a head if the issue of slavery was not paramount. The South and North had many differences, - tariff issues, manufacturer vs. agrarian society etc, but NOTHING effected the South in terms of socio-economics as the abolition of slavery. Slavery was the foundation of their economic life and the cornerstone of their society.

That isnít to say the majority of the North did not hold similar views of Race as the South. It did, for the most part. However, the North wasnít dependent on slavery, as the South was. Thatís why even though relatively few Southerners actually owned slaves, most were willing to fight for it. Relatively few Northern soldiers fought to free the slaves in the beginning. They fought to preserve the Union. However, after the Emancipation Proclamation and white Union soldiers fought along side USCT soldiers, that attitude changed in many.

In 1832 South Carolina passed the Ordinance of Nullification, which stated that it would not collect the high tariffs on the goods that Congress had imposed (which was advantageous to the manufacturers of the North, and disadvantageous to the plantation owners of the South), and threatened to secede. President Andrew Jackson, a Southerner himself, sent Federal troops to South Carolina to suppress this. While the rest of the South states wholly supported the rebellion against the tariffs, it was nowhere near enough to get the as a group into open rebellion period.

Although States Rights were a serious and main issue of the Civil War, it would NOT have forced war if it wasnít intertwined with Slavery. To say it was one and not the other is an incomplete statement. The Civil War would not have happened if there were no issues due to slavery.

doc-catfish
04-04-2006, 09:36 AM
It's context to me.

Flying at Stone Mountain = not bad.
As a tattoo next to a swastika = bad.
Hanging outside of a KA fraternity house = not bad.
Being carried by a color guard in white hoods = bad.
etc. etc. etc....
Context is everything. Too many people see a controversial symbol like the Confederate Flag and just knee jerkedly react to it, as if their connotation of what the symbol means is the only true or correct one.

The Swastika is another symbol that people automatically associate with hatred due to its history with Nazi Germany, but a lot of people forget that it has also been used as a positve symbol in many parts of the world for reasons not remotely related to the Nazis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I wonder how many people today would look at a "left-facing" swastika (the Nazi swastika faces right) and just instantly assume the worst.

The fact is that you really can't understand the intent of the person who uses a symbol that has become mired in controversy unless you ask them what their intent is. Its only truly offensive if they're indeed trying to offend you.

TarynJolie
04-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao :wave:

Emily
04-04-2006, 10:38 AM
I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.


ironic statement

in any case, bye!

Deni
04-04-2006, 10:51 AM
BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

It's really not that hard to understand...the topic is a poo-ish topic and some people can't seem to control themselves when these kinds of threads pop up...exactly why Poo was shut down in the first place.

Rhi doesn't want to become the Lounge/Flow-over Poo moderator. She has to keep it clean if it's in the lounge. It's just easier to throw it to the member boards where there are no moderators and make it serve as an "enter at your own risk" kind of thread.

Jay Zeno
04-04-2006, 10:52 AM
The Confederate flag is to most African Americans what the swastika is to most Jews. It's a symbol of persecution and institutional degradation. There's just no getting around that.

Fly a Nazi symbol and say, "Oh, I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm celebrating Volkswagens and trains running on time and engineering and ethnic pride in the German culture."

Uh, yeah. It's the same with Confederate flags.


----------------------------


If you get mortally offended because a posting gets moved from one forum to another, may as well take off now. It's probably going to happen to you sooner or later. Apologies in advance.

Prester_John
04-04-2006, 11:09 AM
Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao :wave:

I think think we can all use this at the moment...

Rhiannon
04-04-2006, 11:30 AM
Lots of interesting responces. Thanks to those of you who responded !

BUT wtf is with putting most any topic that isn't of the bubblegum variety into members ? It's fucking ridiculous that we can't discuss things other than how much we hate/love a celebrity or there non meaningful topics in the lounge. It's especially ridiculous because the section description says to discuss whatever we want.

I've tired of being treated like a 5 year old and so I am going to leave stripperweb and move on to another BBS now.

Take care everybody and maybe I'll see you elsewhere on the net someday

Ciao :wave:

It's no secret that POO is NOT suitable for the Lounge. All topics of that sort are moved here to Member Boards because the majority of members DO NOT want to see it in the Lounge.

The Lounge is for light topics. People go there to relax, not debate.

That's the way things are. It's been explained enough. If you feel that you must leave, so be it. The rules aren't changing.

Rhiannon
04-04-2006, 11:33 AM
I think think we can all use this at the moment...

PJ.. That is CLASSIC. Keep that handy, we could use it on many occasions around here.

AlluringAva
04-04-2006, 11:34 AM
I look at it two ways. As a Civil War buff, the Confederate flag was a historical symbol which yes, did stand for pro-slavery, but let's face it...The US flag was flying long before that, and it too, legitimized slavery, not to mention the Constitution, which stated that blacks were 3/5 of what a white man was.

I also don't look at Confederate monuments or schools named after Confederate generals like Nathan B Forrest as offensive, because again, while you can say these people stood for slavery, so did George Washington.


Historically the KKK has used that flag as it does now as white supremacy. But didn't the US flag stand for that too, when the US enacted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, and in the future years, told my ancestors who came from Japan that they could not be citizens of this country, but only 'aliens?' And later interned Japanese AMERICANS them during World War II out of paranoia that they might be 'spying' for Japan? Not to mention Plessy vs. Ferguson which legitimized segregation?

I find very little offensive about this flag, because it's a flag that's part of Civil War history and this nation's history of a war that cost more lives than all other wars the US fought.

dolliest
04-04-2006, 01:36 PM
to me, far more than hatred, that flag represents treason and oath breakers.

SabrinaSweet
04-04-2006, 02:40 PM
Fly a Nazi symbol and say, "Oh, I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm celebrating Volkswagens and trains running on time and engineering and ethnic pride in the German culture."

Uh, yeah. It's the same with Confederate flags.



I agree.

To me wearing or flying a Confederate flag is a signal that that person agrees with slavery and all that goes along with it. They might as well be wearing a white hood a robe . Use of that flag just screams "White Power" . It's very distasteful.

Deogol
04-04-2006, 05:11 PM
Historically the KKK has used that flag as it does now as white supremacy. But didn't the US flag stand for that too, when the US enacted the Chinese Exclusion Act in 1882, and in the future years, told my ancestors who came from Japan that they could not be citizens of this country, but only 'aliens?' And later interned Japanese AMERICANS them during World War II out of paranoia that they might be 'spying' for Japan? Not to mention Plessy vs. Ferguson which legitimized segregation?

.


I am glad you mentioned the US Flag being portrayed as a symbol of hate.

During the recent illegal immigrant protests - with all their mexican flags - people waving American flags have been called haters. Sad sad sad where the american flag is now being propagandized by those who hate america to being a symbol of hate.

Deni
04-04-2006, 05:14 PM
PJ.. That is CLASSIC. Keep that handy, we could use it on many occasions around here.


Haha! I just now saw that, but it's really funny! :D

Blade
04-04-2006, 05:41 PM
Since this thread keeps going back and forth about Swastikas and Rebel flags...
Here's some info for those who care

Jay Zeno
04-04-2006, 06:44 PM
The Confederate flag is to most African Americans what the swastika is to most Jews.
In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans polled favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol building.
I wasn't arguing history. I was commenting on symbolism. I note that some state flags suddenly started showcasing Confederate flags in the time of Brown v. Board of Education and the civil rights movements, when segregation was being attacked.

If the Confederacy hadn't been fighting so hard to keep human beings as property and consider black people as subhuman, we wouldn't be having these discussions. But they did, and we are.

Blade
04-04-2006, 06:45 PM
and that's why I figured some educational reading material was due, mostly for people like me who know what things stand for, but not the whole meaning

SexeJaz
04-04-2006, 11:14 PM
Lil' Jon and the Eastside Boys be rocking the confederate flag. At least on one of his cd albums he dose. They're way of representing the south.

AlluringAva
04-04-2006, 11:50 PM
I have an African American friend who has a Dukes of Hazzard car...without the traditional Confederate flag, but with African colors of black, green and red. He WAS going to put the traditional one on there, but his dad was like, LOL, " Son, I don't think you um want to do that.." and made us all laugh.

AlluringAva
04-04-2006, 11:51 PM
Again, have you people forgotten how racist the US flag can be? It stood for white supremacy for years and years BEFORE the Confederate flag, BEFORE the Confederacy, and was the same flag flying when my ancestors and family were targets of government racist policies.

AlluringAva
04-04-2006, 11:55 PM
and that's why I figured some educational reading material was due, mostly for people like me who know what things stand for, but not the whole meaning


To me, because my own family were targets of racism that had nothing to do with a Southern symbol, I can't even flip out over the Confederate flag. As a history buff, I can see why blacks don't like it, but I can also see why people do want to keep it as part of history. It's like I say til I'm blue in the face...America had slaves long before Confederacy, and as someone who has studied history in college in depth more than most people, I can say that slavery was not the primary reason the South left the US. The primary reason for the Civil War was economic division and the differences of industrialization as well as agricultural idealogy. Slavery in fact was only ended a few decades before the Civil War in Northern States. And in fact, very recently in this century, the US flag was flying as blacks were lynched by the hundreds, as my own ancestors could not be citizens, and on and on until you could write volumes about how racist the US flag is.

KamrynAnne
04-05-2006, 07:41 AM
for some reason in ohio people like to hang them on their trucks high in the air.. haa. its actually kind of funny....

KentuckyMysteryMan
06-22-2007, 09:41 AM
Ludacris, an African-American, in a Confederate flag jacket. There goes your white supremist argument.

Yekhefah
06-22-2007, 09:51 AM
^^^ You dug up a 14-month-old thread to show us a picture of Ludacris?

LuckiCharm
06-22-2007, 11:19 AM
^^^ You dug up a 14-month-old thread to show us a picture of Ludacris?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Bob_Loblaw
06-24-2007, 11:15 AM
Ludacris, an African-American, in a Confederate flag jacket. There goes your white supremist argument.

I don't think so. I think his wearing of the Confederate flag was intended to be an act of defiance by wearing it proudly. It may be a bad analogy but I draw similarities between that and use of the N-word by some in the black community.

Just because the swastika may have originally been used as a religious symbol doesn't mean it has its place in society today as it now means so much more. I believe the same of the confederate flag.

Mr Hyde
07-01-2007, 11:38 AM
It's context to me.

Flying at Stone Mountain = not bad.
As a tattoo next to a swastika = bad.
Hanging outside of a KA fraternity house = not bad.
Being carried by a color guard in white hoods = bad.
etc. etc. etc....

Good post.

The flag does not necessarily stand for hatred. Unfortunately, it's been co-opted by some people who want to use it for such purposes. However, in and of itself, it can also just stand for what some people believe is a unique part of the country and way of life. Growing up in the south, I never really gave the sight of the flag much thought...you just saw it all the time and it wasn't a big deal.