View Full Version : follow-up to duke rape case
azcustomer
04-10-2006, 05:35 PM
Just wanted to point something out.
First, it's quite probable that condoms were used, making DNA matching improbable, but still a standard investigative procedure.
Last week's Durham City Council meeting was aired on-line by a local tv station.
In the meeting, one of the city council members, Howard Clement III (a Lawyer) mentioned that he had heard that not all 46 players who had DNA warrants issued for had provided samples. He further stated that he had heard that some of the players' parents had quickly shipped the players out of state (and out of the country) so they couldn't be compelled to provide DNA.
Now, during the meeting, Howard did come off like he was pontificating, but ever since the meeting (April 6th), I've closely watched the reporting. I've seen the Durham DA (Nifong) and the police release official reports that warrants were issued for the DNA of 46 players. I've seen many, many reports of defense lawyers stating that 46 samples were taken. I've seen newswriters report that DNA reports from the 46 players were delivered - while I've never seen any qote from the DA or official police report stating that 46 DNA samples were collected.
This may be shoddy reporting. The DA has never said it had RECEIVED DNA samples from 46 players. They said warrants were issued for DNA samples of the 46 white players. The DA has also said that it probably would not release the DNA test results. Why would they? They aren't interested in keeping the case in the press. Doing so only gives more information to the defense attorneys and further taints more potential jurors, making thier jobs more difficult.
So why did we hear about this today? More than likely it was a leak provided by the defense lawyers. The DA is required to provide a copy of each report to the player from which the DNA sample was gathered. So, at lease one of the defense lawyers received negative test results. If you are that lawyer, the first thing you need to do to protect your client is leak it to the press that the results of the DNA tests were negative.
What if one of the DNA tests came back positive? We won't hear it until charges are brought - and the DA won't charge anyone until they feel confident in thier ability to get 3 convictions.
leilanicandy
04-10-2006, 05:38 PM
AZcustomer you are right!
Dj Captain Rob
04-10-2006, 05:41 PM
If the team members actully DID use a condom when they supposedly raped her, the there would have been traces of spermicide, latex etc.. that the experts would have been able to detect that one was used. They didnt find evidence of that either. This case is done for, the DA will not be able to make a case of this based on the solo testimony of the alleged victim. Sad to say but i doubt this will even go to trial. It also just came out in the lasyt few hours that the "rape kit" showed no evidence of any kind of sex in recent days.
I had my doubts on this one from the start but was reserving judgement until the physical evidence came out, well there ya go. IF thhis really did occur then the DA screwed this up from the start. But I still think my thought from a different post is more the case.
Cap't
I didnt buy the Kobe case entirely either but there WAS Physical evidence in that case, the victim just got bought off and dropped the charges.
francescadubois
04-10-2006, 05:47 PM
^^^^^^^^This is so discouraging and sad! I honestly believe that we are not getting the whole story and even if someone is guilty, no punishment will be given since the victim is marginilized (lower class, single mom, and Jesus, black on top of it all). I hate to bring up the race thing, but every message board I have been on (excluding this one) concerning this situation is flooded with racial epithets and terribly disgusting comments on black (and in some cases, mexican) women. It scares me to know we still have so many people who think so negatively on women and minorities. I'm literally shaking as I write this....
Deogol
04-10-2006, 06:41 PM
After learning further details about this I don't see how anyone could say that racism didn't play a part in the intentions and actions of the players on that night.
Now about the Fox News clip mentioned in this discussion I have to say why is anyone surprised ? I mean this is FoxNews we are talking about here. It's the home base for all that is corrupt or should I say Conservative. Just look at the last two weeks of breaking news. An attempted sexual encounter with a minor by a top republican, the Prez being the source of the classified information leak. The list of corrupt, improper and illegal activity just goes on and on with those people. So is it really any wonder that Rush would say what he did about this case.
It's no surprise to me . I would be surprised if it went the other way. Now that would be shocking !
Oh please like the democrats/liberals aren't corrupt either. They like to take our money by force (just try to not pay taxes) and then spend it on the stupidest shit known to man. Your man Sen. Kennedy is all talk about alternative energy until the possiblity of wind farms come into the horizon of his "compound." Let's not even get into the mass of rapes and death that surround the Kennedy clan.
I now return you to your regularily scheduled thread.
azcustomer
04-10-2006, 07:01 PM
If the team members actully DID use a condom when they supposedly raped her, the there would have been traces of spermicide, latex etc.. that the experts would have been able to detect that one was used. They didnt find evidence of that either.
It is not the case that if a condom is used, you will always find evidence of latex and spermicide. These popular TV shows where the infallable CSI always can find the solution have skewed the general public's perception to an unreal world. In the real world, it is incredibly hard to find. Initially, the players denied the police access to the crime scene. Access was not granted until a warrant was obtained and served a full 64 hours after the incident.
If you are lucky enough to find the evidence of DNA, latex and spermicide, then they help your case. The lack of this evidence can not be used as evidence that a crime didn't exist.
The prosecution needs to be as aggressive as they can, building charges against as many players as they can in order to break the wall of silence and cooperation amongst the players.
It also just came out in the lasyt few hours that the "rape kit" showed no evidence of any kind of sex in recent days.
I haven't seen any report of this - please point out where. The defense lawyers usually leak such information to the New Observer. http://www.newsobserver.com/ (http://www.newsobserver.com/)
As soon as the defense attorneys announced that DNA evidence was provided by thier clients, I knew they would try to get our anticipation whipped up for the CSI style proof of guilt.
More importantly, I am saying that it is difficult for us to piece together a picture of what happened that night when:
Both sides (DA, Defense) can control what information they chose to release and how they release it. Releasing information can 1) alter the opinion of the general public prior to a case going to trial and 2) give the other side the ability to better prepare for a case / coordinate stories.
1) It is in the DA's best interest not to release to the press information as they collect it nor to explain how they collect it. If it looks like the DA is releasing vague information which contributes to a storm of negative public opinion about the players, it will be difficult to find a judge and venue to prosecute. If they release false or misleading information, people get fired.
2) It is in the defense attorneys' best interest to release vague and misleading information. Remember, there are 46 players represented by multiple attorneys. This gives those word-smith spinsters ample opportunity to muck things up. Thier job right now is to ensure there is "reasoble doubt". If they release false or misleading information, they get praised for aggressively protecting thier clients.
If a lawyer makes a statement to the press, expect it to be spin. As long as a lawyer is representing thier client and weren't directly involved, they can say and do just about anything.
False rape accusations are common, so are real rapes which aren't adequately prosecuted or proven.
Regardless, this case presents an example of the very different worlds the accuser and defendants come from.
This is a case of a group of elitist young men pumping up thier egos by belittling a few "commoners" in thier eyes. The case also happens to include sex (rape) and race, but in the big picture, those are secondary issues.
Deogol
04-10-2006, 07:02 PM
Well, I just saw some interesting conversation on two of the news channels.
There are people suggesting that charges be brought against the dancer!!!
Now, people are more or less trying to explain away DNA as required for a case than trying to explain away other items. Funny (as in weird not ha ha) how that is.
The GUESS going on now, is that the meat heads at the party DID say some derogatory shit at the dancer. This is why they are keeping their mouths shut because they DO have a ton of dirty laundry they would rather not face up to.
They have pictures of the dancer grinning etc. after the rape/assault. Who knows what that means, it could simply be a little pick me up joke or some shit. Others are saying "She's thinking judgement money."
Others are saying that it was a set up. That she didn't get paid what she thought she should get paid and that the rape is fake (like that hasn't happened before) to line up a civil law case against a bunch of rich white kids - noting that everyone was game for a lawsuit except for the lone black kid there.
The email definitely didn't say anything about raping the next dancer. It did refer to skin though - and we all know where a human's color is contained - in the skin. So the email was to be more considered racist than to be considered threat of another rape. It was vile by specifically said there would be no nudity.
Note that these days - it is less about word of a dancer and more about the word of a known car thief and criminal making these charges. Keeping one's nose cleans helps in situations like this.
They are also saying that search warrants show that they are getting leads from someone on the lacrosse team. So while publically they "all are keeping their mouths shut" there is someone (or more) cooperating with the investigation. If so, I am sure the prosecuter doesn't want that person(s) spooked out of cooperating further.
I am sure the reports and speculation will get even more dramatic as time goes on.
Tara Nicole
04-10-2006, 11:13 PM
Last week's Durham City Council meeting was aired on-line by a local tv station.
In the meeting, one of the city council members, Howard Clement III (a Lawyer) mentioned that he had heard that not all 46 players who had DNA warrants issued for had provided samples. He further stated that he had heard that some of the players' parents had quickly shipped the players out of state (and out of the country) so they couldn't be compelled to provide DNA.
As I mentioned before those who have nothing to hide hide nothing. Shipping these boys out of state and even out of country just screams guilty.
So far we have the wall of silence, refusal to allow access to the crime scene , refusal to submit DNA and leaving the state or country.
That is alot of hiding . Innocent people don't usually do everything they can to avoid being proclaimed innocent.
The email definitely didn't say anything about raping the next dancer. It did refer to skin though - and we all know where a human's color is contained - in the skin. So the email was to be more considered racist than to be considered threat of another rape. It was vile by specifically said there would be no nudity.
Rape was not mentioned that is correct. It spoke of murdering and removing the flesh of the next women instead. :O
scarlett_vancouver
04-10-2006, 11:50 PM
DNA is only part of a rape kit...do any of the articles mention if there was trauma to the vagina consistent with rape?
Tara Nicole
04-10-2006, 11:54 PM
Yes I think so Scarlett . From what I have heard the people at the hospital said her injuries were consistent with rape .
mark45y
04-11-2006, 12:53 AM
Nifonghas said he believes physical evidence shows a rape occurred. Nurses evaluating the woman found injuries and behavior that were consistent with a sexual assault, he said. Even without DNA, he said he could still pursue the case.
"I would not be surprised if condoms were used," Nifong said in an interview last month. "Probably an exotic dancer would not be your first choice for unprotected sex."
In 2002, she was working at a topless club in Durham, when she stole a cab driver's car keys while giving him a lap dance, according to a police report. When the driver went to the bathroom, she drove off in the cab and led police on a lengthy car chase. In the process, she smashed into a patrol car and attempted to drive through a fence, but was eventually arrested after her car got a flat tire. She tested at 0.19, more than twice the alcohol limit.
Only about 8 percent of sexual assault reports are found not to be true following a police investigation, according to Berkowitz, the national rape expert.
Yekhefah
04-11-2006, 12:54 AM
There was trauma to the vagina, but the timing can't be determined. Theoretically she could have had sex with insufficient lubrication just before the party. I know I personally have been rubbed raw for a day or two, so they can't tell just by that alone.
As far as I can tell, no one is saying that there is no DNA. It just doesn't match the team. So lots of things are possible besides her lying... she could have been violated by someone not on the team, or the team's samples could have come from stand-ins (never underestimate the power of Southern university athletic departments), or the samples could have been contaminated, etc. It's certainly possible that she could be lying but it just seems so unlikely to me.
francescadubois
04-11-2006, 06:49 AM
^^^^^^^^^Yekhefah, I was thinking the same thing about the stand-ins... This is all so very sad. :'(
ascifilullaby
04-11-2006, 08:00 AM
i don't know whether or not i believe rape occurred at the party, but the saddest part is that tawana brawley set the precedent for disbelief in these type of cases.
lola025
04-11-2006, 08:33 AM
There was a video reviewed that alledges the dancer had bruises as she came in ALREADY. I don't know. She might just be one that gives strippers a bad name. My theory is they said some demeaning racial slurs and this was her revenge?? who knows.
kinda_normal_guy
04-11-2006, 09:04 AM
Public opinion has likely already turned against the girl.
The attorneys press conference was very convining on the surface. "no dna on her, none on the players, none in the area, etc, etc."
No matter what the real story is, it will be very hard now to get people 'fired up' about this being rape without some proof. "he said, she said" is much harder when there seems to be no physical evidence at all.
I may get flamed for this one, but I'm leaning towards the theory that she got stiffed on being paid and decided to get back at the boys
Yekhefah
04-11-2006, 09:49 AM
^^^ If you were a student and didn't want your family or classmates to know you were a stripper, would you file false rape charges? If you were going to file a false rape charge, would you go to the hospital and have a rape kit done? For me, it really comes down to that rape kit. That's a pretty invasive procedure and everyone knows they test for DNA with that kind of thing. There is NO WAY she would have had a rape kit done if she was lying; I just don't buy it.
leilanicandy
04-11-2006, 10:55 AM
There was a video reviewed that alledges the dancer had bruises as she came in ALREADY. I don't know. She might just be one that gives strippers a bad name. My theory is they said some demeaning racial slurs and this was her revenge?? who knows.
Where are you getting you information from? What video? Is this all heresay? The DA have not release any informations about this "video".
Please show let me know where you retrieve this accurate information, well I assume this informations is true. I am sure you would not lie about there was a video reviewed. The information I got says nothing of a video!
I will hate to see this happen to another dancer since people think all dancer are liars!
leilanicandy
04-11-2006, 11:22 AM
I hope she is not a liar! Rape is souch a horrible thing! Lola025 I will be waiting for your post!
I can not defend a liar ! That will make all black dancer look bad, this will be bad for business for black dancers!
kinda_normal_guy
04-11-2006, 12:11 PM
Lawyer: Photos Will Show Dancer Was Hurt, Impaired Before Duke Lacrosse Party
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191096,00.html
"He declined to identify the player he represents and said he would not release the photos, taken by at least two cameras, until pending DNA tests are completed."
All info from the players lawyers so who knows what the real story is, but I gotta say it's not looking good from the girls' side when nothing came back positive.
There has NEVER been a rape case brought to trial when the DNA evidence points toward innocence, every time it's when the DNA confirms the victims story.
lunchbox
04-11-2006, 12:11 PM
The fact that there was something to do a DNA test against, and that apparently none of them matched up is extremely suspect. I would presume if someone hadn't been DNA tested, that specifically would've been mentioned.
azcustomer
04-11-2006, 12:13 PM
Is there any way that a mother of a Duke player OR STUDENT could possibly be proud to tell anyone that they are?
A ticket to a Duke basketball game:
$20.
One year's Duke tution:
$46,000.
Sending your kid to a school where they learn racist and elitist epithets, and how to demean, abuse and rape poor women:
Priceless
lola025
04-11-2006, 12:22 PM
Where are you getting you information from? What video? Is this all heresay? The DA have not release any informations about this "video".
Please show let me know where you retrieve this accurate information, well I assume this informations is true. I am sure you would not lie about there was a video reviewed. The information I got says nothing of a video!
I will hate to see this happen to another dancer since people think all dancer are liars!
Yah, it's mostly speculation from my part, my roommate read some of her sources and she's big into this story. i have to ask her. I would hate for this girl to be lying believe me, I am a dancer and it will give us and real victims a bad name. I was just saying it could be a possibility that she's lying after all. Don't know why people do the things they do.
Blade
04-11-2006, 04:06 PM
"PROPERGANDA"
Dont you just love how that red neck flag that hangs so high!
somebody had to say it! I am sure I will hear a lot comments on my statement.
If a group of men gang up and rape a woman. Than try to kill her! 9 chance out of ten. They knew what they was doing, and like most rapist they use a codom. This is this womans first party. She happen to get rape by a bunch racist rich dick heads. Who parent will do anything to cover up thier mess! This woman is not a liar ! The team member that sent those emails. saying they should kill strippers. Was just trying to take the people eyes off the real reason they did that to her! Was because she was a black stripper! Again nobody's stupid the men who did have issues. but the money they have help buy them the tools to cover it up! To have all those things done to her! They did it to her was like how the southern racist rednecks did to black women. But they the only differance is she survive it! The fact she is fighting back! She is one stong sister. She has my prayers!I'm lost. Why does it seem like you are fighting with me when all I did was post a link to a news story? If you're not, I apologize for misreading this post.
The_Oceans
04-11-2006, 04:18 PM
The defense is also stating that they have time/date stamped photos showing her as injured prior to the alleged rape and intoxicated.
If this woman was lying - and I'm not saying she is - she has just set back stripper progress against stigmas and race relations.
A part of me hopes she is lying because it would teach us all a lesson in jumping the gun and I hate, hate, hate the thought of a woman being gang-banged (involuntarily) and that these athletes are going to spend some time in prison. At the same time, DNA evidence does not rule out a rape. Nor do photos.
Timestamps can be easily manipulated on digital cameras, whether intentionally or on purpose, so the non-DNA match plus "time/date stamped photos" are not the double-whammy the defense hopes they are.
And as I will state later, this is only the beginning of the investigation...but if it does come out in the end that she was lying, it's a setback for anyone wanting to report being attacked or abused.
Well I see the player's attorneys have taken the smear campaign route. :-\
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=triangle&id=4072998
And the fact that they couldn't find any DNA is just going to make this worse.
I'm saddened to say this is likely going to end in much the same way the Kobe Bryant debacle, and a lot of sexual assault cases do, with the accused likely to never see a trial, but with neither party likely to see any vindication in the court of public opinion. The defendants will always be considered rapists. The accuser will always be considered a liar.
I made the mistake of reading the discussion threads attached to the story linked by doc-catfish. In this sample, there is as strong a tide against the accuser now as there was at the start against the lacrosse team - a kneejerk reaction presuming that because there's no DNA link between the lacrosse team and the accuser's injuries the team is automatically innocent.
Bottom line is that this is just the start of the investigation. All the DNA tests proved is that the lacrosse team's samples didn't match the samples collected from the accuser. That doesn't mean that someone else in that house couldn't have attacked her.
unbeleavable
04-11-2006, 06:24 PM
I'm lost. Why does it seem like you are fighting with me when all I did was post a link to a news story? If you're not, I apologize for misreading this post.
I think she does not like your flag,but I don't know.
Tara Nicole
04-11-2006, 06:26 PM
Lawyer: Photos Will Show Dancer Was Hurt, Impaired Before Duke Lacrosse Party
Pretty much anything that comes from FoxNews is propaganda and full of false information. If you want to hear actual facts on most any subject then avoid FoxNews .
Second as was mentioned already time stamps can be altered . I can do it with my Sony camera and it isn't even a top of the line model.
Tara Nicole
04-11-2006, 06:39 PM
I think she does not like your flag,but I don't know.
I venture to say you are correct . Considering the history of that flag I don't blame her . That symbol represents the height of racism in this country. Being that race is a big part of this Duke rape case it stands to reason that many women and especially women of color are going to take that flag as an indication of what position the person using it is going to have on this subject.
Also DILLIGF stands for "Does it look like I give a fuck" so the combo of the two together in an avatar give off a certain sort of attitude that is likely to offend many people.
I am not even black and I don't like it but it is a free country so if he wants that symbol and all that is associated with it to be his avatar then that is his choice. It is a matter of freedom of expression.
leilanicandy
04-11-2006, 07:52 PM
I venture to say you are correct . Considering the history of that flag I don't blame her . That symbol represents the height of racism in this country. Being that race is a big part of this Duke rape case it stands to reason that many women and especially women of color are going to take that flag as an indication of what position the person using it is going to have on this subject.
Also DILLIGF stands for "Does it look like I give a fuck" so the combo of the two together in an avatar give off a certain sort of attitude that is likely to offend many people.
I am not even black and I don't like it but it is a free country so if he wants that symbol and all that is associated with it to be his avatar then that is his choice. It is a matter of freedom of expression.
Blade what Tara Nicole said express a good point. Also I was not picking a fight with you! Just as you have the freedom to display that flag. I have the freedom to make negative comments about the flag. I dont know you as a person, so far you have never did anything to hurt me. I accept your apology!
Yekhefah
04-12-2006, 10:03 AM
So let's review here...
Stereotype of strippers as whores: BAD.
Stereotype of rape victims as liars: BAD.
Stereotype of black women as easy: BAD.
Stereotype of all Southerners as "racist rednecks": GOOD.
This is NOT about the fucking flag, and that flag has jack-all to do with anything. I for one am a proud feminist Southerner and I am neither racist nor a redneck. Not to hijack the thread, but I'm just damn sick to death of being subjected to this shit.
ascifilullaby
04-12-2006, 10:29 PM
^ i was going to say something about that too... i've lived in texas my entire life and i'm as far from a racist hick as one can get and neither are most southerners.
polecat
04-12-2006, 10:55 PM
The only reason why this case is getting the kinds of attention, focus and debate that it is, is because it wraps misogyny, misandry, racism, regionalism, class struggle and pro/con sex worker all into one little box.
I submit that I have yet to see anyone look at this case without some form of tinted glasses based on one's personal beliefs, biases and experiences.
Djoser
04-13-2006, 12:00 AM
What a mess...
Of course there were, no doubt, more than just the 46 (or 47, counting the one black guy) lacrosse players at the party. That 'wall of silence' might be protecting some equally sheltered friends of the lacrosse team members.
The defense lawyers will certainly do all they can to discredit the victim, who apparently is a ripe target for this tactic due to her unfortunate record. The fact that many of those spoiled boys have similar records won't help her, and won't hurt them.
The defense lawyers will certainly do all they can to make it appear that none of the DNA samples match, regardless of the stringency of the collection methods used.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that there have been some tricks pulled to ensure no matching DNA was found anyway--but then I am biased against the glorification of college and pro team sports heros. I recall hearing the methods used to lure players to the UT teams when I was in Austin, the actual payment of money being prohibited--it was disgusting. Payment wasn't allowed, but lavish gifts (like very expensive sports cars), parties, and sexual favors bought were freely used. Alumni are allowed to give gifts to whom they choose, and entertain as they see fit.
From junior high onwards, and sometimes even earlier, 'star' athletes are coddled and granted special status, their rude or uncivil behavior towards other students glossed over, their grading process subject to little or no scrutiny. And the adoring fans kiss ass on every available occasion, often in ways that make me shake my head in wonder.
Am I convicting these guys in my own mind, no--I wasn't there and have no access to the real evidence.
I am skeptical, however, that nothing took place and the woman is making it all up, though I have worked with women whom I wouldn't believe under similar circumstances, either. I am quite sorry to say this. But I do work in a pretty rough club, and I know that the women I work with are not suitable examples by which to judge the profession. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't know this. Especially people who revere that detestable swine, Rush Limbaugh.
I really wonder if the truth will ever be known.
One thing I do believe--if the wealthy parents of a guilty rapist lacrosse player can buy their way out of it, especially with the collusion of Duke University athletic department members wishing to avoid embarassment, they will...
Oh, and Deogol, I agree entirely about the Kennedy clan--much as I despise the Bush Dynasty as being downright unAmerican and dangerous to the future of this country, the Kennedy Dynasty wasn't any better as far as their personal morals were concerned. Furthermore, the dynastic trend is dangerous no matter which party or political stance it comes from.
Optimist
04-13-2006, 12:24 AM
One thing I do believe--if the wealthy parents of a guilty rapist lacrosse player can buy their way out of it, especially with the collusion of Duke University athletic department members wishing to avoid embarassment, they will...
Oh, and Deogol, I agree entirely about the Kennedy clan--much as I despise the Bush Dynasty as being downright unAmerican and dangerous to the future of this country, the Kennedy Dynasty wasn't any better as far as their personal morals were concerned. Furthermore, the dynastic trend is dangerous no matter which party or political stance it comes from.
I agree. I think we've never shaken that English love of royalty and we try to find signs of divine birthright in any rich or talented family. We're setting ourselves up. Rich families and talented families have the same shortcomings. People still seem to want to worship them.
erotictonic
04-13-2006, 01:27 AM
I agree. I think we've never shaken that English love of royalty and we try to find signs of divine birthright in any rich or talented family. We're setting ourselves up. Rich families and talented families have the same shortcomings. People still seem to want to worship them.
That's because they haven't had enough experiences with them.... I won't ever live in another area that's not liberal again. I know all too many rich families that are dumber than a doorknob. Talented? We are all talented in some way... some of us just have more of a chance to develop our talents.
azcustomer
04-13-2006, 09:36 AM
There are many who like to use the Confederate Flag as a sign of independent spirit and southern ideals.
Unfortunately for them, the Confederate Flag is also used as a sign of racism. If you choose to use that flag, you choose to associate yourself with racism. If you choose to use this symbol, you will need to defend youself as not being a racist and need to condemn those who continue to use the symbol as a sign of racism.
azcustomer
04-13-2006, 09:39 AM
For full disclosure, I'm a Southern Californian transplanted in the desert of Arizona. I happen to be white, but spent much of my formative years growing up in a predominantly black neighborhood (Inglewood). I am a proud graduate of an elite public university who is not impressed by rich private schools and the type of people they attract.
IMO there are three intertwined issues here:
1) A group of elitist young men who decided to pump up thier egos by hiring a couple of entertainers with the intent of degrading them.
To me, this is the most appalling and damaging attitude displayed in this event. I hope to live in a world where we show our respect for all living things. I'm not a tree hugger, I don't condemn hunting, and I'm all for showing a little humor from time to time, but these young men showed thier low self esteem by having to degrade these gals in a group setting.
2) Racism comes into the picture when the young men specifically ask for black entertainers AND later yell racial epithets at them. Interestingly, in the city known for race riots (Los Angeles), you would NEVER see anything like this. Racism is different in different places. After moving to Phoenix, I was appalled at the predominance of racism amongst locals and transplants from the Midwest and parts of the South. In my opinion, it is important to use this as an example of racism to question its' origin. The more we can talk about it in a less passionate (read: complaining) manner, I hope the issue and viewpoint loses its steam.
There are those who say that racism also came into play when the DA and police did not immediately arrest the players. Here I will disagree - apparently the police knew the victim/accuser would have difficulty identifying her attackers at the time. It would be inappropriate to arrest 46 young men for a crime committed by 3. If I were in the DA's shoes, I would be very frustrated in my inability to arrest anyone yet. Bringing up past ills shown by authorities towards black people is not relevant here and only adds steam to an already hot topic.
3) Finally, sadly, this is about a sex crime. This is a story of a few sick men who feel entitled to commit a crime and think they will get away with it. Personally, I chose to give less energy towards hating these sick three boys and save all that energy to caring for the vicitim. She needs to know that she is respected and cared for. Whether or not the young men are brought to justice by our legal system, karma and public opinion have already condemned them for the rest of thier lives.
francescadubois
04-13-2006, 06:12 PM
^^^Yeah, this irks me. Why would these guys request 2 black dancers? What type of club or how did they find these dancers? Did they come from a "gentlemen's club" or the hood's "round the way" club? I mean, come on, a group of rich white guys OPENLY showing their sexual attraction to black dancers in front of each other? Uh...that's not a southern white guys' style, ya'll (this is coming from a GA peach, no speculation. I was taught that's just the way it is here.) From the beginning it really nagged me about them purposely requesting two black dancers....Any thoughts on this?
Djoser
04-13-2006, 06:44 PM
I would suspect it was a big and very nasty joke to them--I think they were looking to degrade these women.
Whether or not they raped them, it was no doubt a sick ritual of sorts...
francescadubois
04-13-2006, 06:47 PM
You know what's funny? There is an adage among southern white men that "You ain't a real man, til you split dark oak..." I don't know if that's how a lot of southern guys still think, but maybe that way of thinking about these types of women still resides in them... I don't know.
Tara Nicole
04-13-2006, 09:25 PM
From the beginning it really nagged me about them purposely requesting two black dancers....Any thoughts on this?
Yes, I have thoughts on it. They planned to rape or do worse to a black women all along andf thought that a stripper/escort would either not be missed in the event of a murder or would not report the crime in the case of a rape.
They were wrong. Sick bastards >:(
I hear an arrest is coming next week because one or more of the attackers has been positively identified.
francescadubois
04-13-2006, 09:41 PM
^^Really?! OMG! Tara, if you can find a link or anything about that please post it!
Optimist
04-17-2006, 03:36 PM
Two players have been indicted and will be arrested as of this morning!
azcustomer
04-17-2006, 04:09 PM
Prediction: We won't start to see any further evidence leaks until jury selection is complete.
Everyone will quickly figure out who the boys are who are charged. The boys will be forced to drop out of school for their own safety.
The University is actually happy that someone is charged. They couldn't survive the scrutiny if they weren't.
We still don't know much of what happened, other than a lot of speculations and name calling.
unbeleavable
04-18-2006, 12:26 PM
I have keep my opinon to myself untill some arrests were made.I haven't heard all the evidence but from what I have seen & heard these boys look guilty.One of the two has community service for assalt & racial slurs.I hope they get these two to talk about the third kid,so they convict them all.I love how they get to turn themselves in with there attorneys present to bail them out in minutes.These kids should of had their homes raided in the middle of the night like everybody selse would have.
Tara Nicole
04-18-2006, 12:50 PM
I understand that a third player is going to be arrested soon.
I wonder if any of the other players will be charged with any crimes such as obstruction or not trying to stop the rape?
Does anyone else see this trial getting live coverage on Court TV?
azcustomer
04-18-2006, 12:57 PM
The accuser is guilty of watching too much Nick at Nite.
She didn't finger her attackers, she fingered Jethro and Opie!
But seriously, does Collin Finnerty look like a cast member for The Hills Have Eyes or what?
Finally, does anyone know if they fingered her before she fingered them?
Bella21
04-18-2006, 01:00 PM
From that last link:
"The players' attorneys also claim that time-stamped photos taken at the party showed the woman was bruised, bleeding and "seriously impaired" when she arrived at the party, which began March 13 and continued into the next morning."
That's the stupist f*cking excuse. You can set your camera to display any time or date you want. Yea right, she showed up like that. That and the email... It all makes me sick. At least she's finally getting support. I hope they try this as a hate crime, too.
azcustomer
04-18-2006, 01:12 PM
I hope they try this as a hate crime, too.
Nifong already answered that question.
They would need to provide sufficient evidence of a hate crime to the feds in order to receive the added resources. The DA would lose control of the case.
And, sadly, in the end - the penalty for a hate crime is not any worse than those charges which have already been made.
You get nothing in return for increasing the burden of proof.
I agree with your senitiments though.
Optimist
04-18-2006, 02:12 PM
I have keep my opinon to myself untill some arrests were made.I haven't heard all the evidence but from what I have seen & heard these boys look guilty.One of the two has community service for assalt & racial slurs.I hope they get these two to talk about the third kid,so they convict them all.I love how they get to turn themselves in with there attorneys present to bail them out in minutes.These kids should of had their homes raided in the middle of the night like everybody selse would have.
YES! That kills me how the rich walk in with dignity and any other accused citizen gets dragged in a' la COPS! That kid was just charged with assault last year and should have been expelled. Why take the chance of having that freak on campus? At the very least he should have been banned from any team participation until completing his sentence.
There was a great kid who was depressed over the death of his best friend and sought psychological help and was expelled. Assault is far worse! Thoses douchebags should go!>:(