Log in

View Full Version : follow-up to duke rape case



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

azcustomer
04-18-2006, 02:21 PM
There was a great kid who was depressed over the death of his best friend and sought psychological help and was expelled.

Optimist: Can you share more about this story? Was it Duke?

francescadubois
04-18-2006, 06:00 PM
Some one just called me and told me that the new word out is there is no DNA because she WAS raped with the broom handle. Makes perfect sense and is utterly deplorable.

Lena
04-18-2006, 06:55 PM
My professor, the head of the social work department today, told that class that "first, lets be clear I'm not blaming the victim... but she definitely had some responsibility for what happened to her"! Then the whole class agreed with her, and were saying that the girl was asking for it because she went back into the party and because she was a "stripper, I mean exotic dancer." When I said that she'd just gone in to get her shoes this girl turned around and told me that, "you don't just forget your shoes in a party, trust me." Then the professor told me that I was wrong because the girl wasn't a stripper, she was an exotic dancer. And I'm paying for this education!

Katrine
04-18-2006, 07:51 PM
I was assaulted at a bachelor party once, it was really traumatic. This girl is very brave for what she has been through. I never did anything about it because it was my culpability for being there wasted and not paying attention, but what she went through was gruesome in comparison, I hope that justice is served. :(

Optimist
04-18-2006, 07:58 PM
AZ, the guy I was talking about went to another university. All of them have a general code of conduct and I was salty that it's so inconsistently applied from one school to another, one school officer to another, etc. His story was on recently and I thought it was sad that he was expelled because he was afraid of being a danger to himself. (He wasn't) He's now suing his former school. But then this kid is actually charged by police with assault up in DC and gets to attend school anyway?! Crazy!

azcustomer
04-18-2006, 09:33 PM
Optimist,

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, it sucks to see glaringly different sets of standards.

By the way, if it makes anyone feel any better. It is pretty much guaranteed that the players in question are suspended from the school. The university gave an artfully worded announcement today which pretty much states it without holding the university open to lawsuits by the parents.

Finally, court documents released today offer the addresses of the parents. I google earthed up images of them: Mansions on golf courses.

By the way Kat & Lena - so sorry to hear about what both of you had to go through. I can't imagine what it's like to have to go through that stuff.

francescadubois
04-18-2006, 09:52 PM
^^^^^"Finally, court documents released today offer the addresses of the parents. I google earthed up images of them: Mansions on golf courses."


Sweet Geezus, that is crazy, crazy, crazy!! Can you imagine what was going through these creeps' minds when they were planning to bring these girls in. Do you think that they planned to do these things (e.g., if the broomstick thing is true, they knew no DNA would be present)? This really scares me.

Melonie
04-19-2006, 04:02 AM
now that indibtments have been served, this case is going to hell in a handbasket very quickly. From the initial 'uber-rich white college students rape poor black single mother' media angle, the indibtments have opened the door for the public introduction of all sorts of evidence that the college students might not actually be guilty, that the dancer has a previous criminal record, that the dancer's personal life was an absolute mess etc. Some media is now working the angle that the dancer is simply a 'stereotype' stripper who lied through her teeth in an effort to extract a settlement from the uber-rich white 'customers'.



Please understand that I'm not making any comments whatsoever in regard to the specifics of this case ... but pointing out that the widespread media coverage is now spreading/reinforcing the 'stereotype' that dancers are lying, thieving, drug addicted whores who will say or do anything for a buck.

If this court case finally turns out failing to convict the college guys, on the heels of the Kobe Bryant case, I'm very concerned that this will lead to law enforcement simply refusing to believe the future statements of exotic dancers that crimes were committed against them without hard evidence being provided by the dancer to back up the charge.

erotictonic
04-19-2006, 04:16 AM
nbut pointing out that the widespread media coverage is now spreading/reinforcing the 'stereotype' that dancers are lying, thieving, drug addicted whores who will say or do anything for a buck.



Like the athletes aren't ::)... they are the rapists! This society is so fucked up it makes me want to throw up. When are we gonna get smarter? A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it, and it doesn't matter who is the victim... why can't we see this? It's simple logic. Crime committed, person victimized, criminal prosecuted. It's not that hard. When it is cut down to those simple terms, then the US will be getting somewhere. You can tell I'm a liberal lol.

Zabrina
04-19-2006, 05:32 AM
However this case turns out, it has really brought light to a sick double standard we have in our society. Rich people can do anything and get away with it. They can drink and drive, do drugs and nothing sticks! They can do all that and still become president! Think of some everyday poor kid who is arrested with a little pot. He/she gets a permanent record that never goes away. Youthful indescretions for the rich=a okay, but anyone else who does the same or even lessor crimes is forever a criminal!

And to think of how often date rapes occur and go unpunished in that sort of environment. How no woman wants her name drug through the mud when some rich rapist is going to say that she lied for money. Many of these rich people who have never had a difficult day in their life have have lost touch with what it's like to be human. They have no sympathy, no understanding. They see other people as scum asking for handouts, yet fail to realize that they themself are only where they are because they got a handout from mommy and daddy!!! Sorry for the tangent but this case and all that it implys really sickens me!

Melonie
04-19-2006, 09:04 AM
^^ be that as it may, the 'real world' is what it is ... most newspaper publishers, lawyers, judges, TV anchormen, lawmakers etc. are 'rich white guys'. As you almost said, a rich white guy can get drunk, drive his car off a bridge, drown his babysitter, leave the scene of the accident, and still be a US Senator (just making the point that this isn't a political issue but a 'class' issue"). As to the 'victim' mentality, the news coverage is beginning to make the case that it was the 'rich white guys' who were victimized by a greedy 'stripper'.

I wasn't making a judgement as to the ultimate fairness of the Kobe Bryant case or the upcoming LaCrosse case, but merely pointing out the 'real world' future effects of all this negative publicity ... that in the future the word of a 'stripper' accusing a 'fine upstanding citizen' of a criminal act in the absence of hard evidence to back it up will probably result in doubt/disbelief by local cops and prosecutors.

This will make future crimes committed against dancers much more difficult to prosecute, because every cop and prosecutor is likely to have the thought of 'lying in order to collect a settlement' in the back of their minds. Ironically, this will also make criminal charges levelled against dancers themselves (prostitution, lewd conduct) easier to prosecute based on the same official lack of credibility in the absence of hard evidence to prove their innocence.

mark45y
04-19-2006, 10:13 AM
I read a bunch of stuff about the case. It seems to me that the guys did the crime. There are a lot of blogs talking about that have a bunch of information that has not been mentioned here.

Apparently the two accused voluntarily went to the police station without lawyers to give statements and offered to take polygraph tests but the police told them they did not want any polygraph tests.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12115147/site/newsweek/page/2/

Don’t they give polygraph tests to eliminate subjects as a general rule? Why did the DA refuse to give them polygraph tests?

Eques
04-19-2006, 10:18 AM
Because polygraphs are not full proof. People can fake them and get negative results while a good defending lawyer can easily making a positive polygraph test look like shit. Lie detector evidence is pretty much crap.

gypsy_girlchild
04-19-2006, 10:22 AM
^^^I don't think they hold up in court, either
This whole thing makes me feel ill...

Lena
04-19-2006, 11:34 AM
Don’t they give polygraph tests to eliminate subjects as a general rule? Why did the DA refuse to give them polygraph tests?

No. A polygraph just measures physical reaction to saying something. Anyone who's played around with biofeedback can pass a polygraph easily, as well as anyone who is really confident even if they are lying.

azcustomer
04-19-2006, 12:48 PM
Polygraphs provide horrible evidence that can only muddy up the waters.

By the way, Mark45guy - just to point out two things.

It wasn't the accused who offered to talk to the police and take a polygraph, it was the three boys who live at the house in question.

Also, as I found out in my divorce - if the boys attorneys had already notified the police/DA that they represented their clients, then the police and DA are not allowed to talk to them without their attorneys present.

Anyone who wants to learn a lot about the rules of court/law, etc. should take an afternoon and visit a local courthouse. You'll see lawyers meeting their clients in prearranged locations nowhere near where the police/opposing attorneys are.

Yekhefah
04-19-2006, 07:31 PM
1. There *is* DNA evidence; it just didn't match the samples allegedly taken from the players.

2. That has nothing to do with your apparently baseless accusation that she was a prostitute.

3. Even if she was a prostitute, which nothing suggests, that has nothing to do with whether she was violated.

4. The evidence now shows that she was assaulted with an object rather than a penis.

sexysweet
04-20-2006, 05:48 AM
Originaly posted by yekhefah:

"The evidence now shows that she was assaulted with an object rather than a penis."

Where is this info?

Tara Nicole
04-20-2006, 09:18 AM
No Dna Evidence.

This is the case in 75% of rapes. Rapists now know that using a condom lowers their chances of being caught. I also have heard that there are more DNA tests being done so there may or may not end up being a DNA match inthe case.

Keep in mind that there is medical evidence as reported by the people who did the rape kit which shows evidence of rape. Also there has been mention of the two women being threatened sexually with use of a broomstick. There are links posted here in this thread that discusses most of what I just mentioned.

Deogol
04-20-2006, 09:46 AM
Like the athletes aren't ::)... they are the rapists! This society is so fucked up it makes me want to throw up. When are we gonna get smarter? A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it, and it doesn't matter who is the victim... why can't we see this? It's simple logic. Crime committed, person victimized, criminal prosecuted. It's not that hard. When it is cut down to those simple terms, then the US will be getting somewhere. You can tell I'm a liberal lol.

Yes, a crime is a crime - but is the crime rape... or is it extortion?

There is more and more evidence the guys accused were not even at the party at the time. Maybe she was hoping "the mean looking could-be jerky ones" in the picture line up were there as well "I am going to get you for calling me those names!"

Google "false rape accusation tawana al sharpton" for more.

Yekhefah
04-20-2006, 09:50 AM
I knew it would come to this... every black woman who accuses a white guy of rape is going to be Tawana Brawley from now on. Greeeeeeeat.

Jenny
04-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Ladies - only take this for what it is worth.

There are guys who feel it is their duty to the male sex to (a) take joy when rape cases are undermined and (b) constantly undermine the issue of rape. They feel it is a political issue. And they are right. It is a political issue. They feel that an inherent right to possess women's bodies is being undermined with every successful rape conviction. Again, they are right. It is. You are not going to change their minds on this, and trying to rid the internet of stupidity and misogyny, let alone racism, is a grinding and thankless task. You are only working yourselves up.

P.S. - all the guys who want to raise their hands and say "but not all guys are like that..." - I know.
All the guys who want to raise their hands and say "I am like that, but it's different because I'm right" personally, I would beg you not to bother.

francescadubois
04-20-2006, 04:24 PM
If I hear Tawana Brawley's name again, I'm gonna scream. Whenever someone brings this up, it makes me aware that it IS about race and most people DO see race. If I get raped by a white guy tomorrow I guess I shouldn't report it, since Tawana Brawley paved the way for my getting dissed/ignored by law enforcement. You're sending a real nice message to minority women.

Bella21
04-20-2006, 05:52 PM
My professor, the head of the social work department today, told that class that "first, lets be clear I'm not blaming the victim... but she definitely had some responsibility for what happened to her"! Then the whole class agreed with her, and were saying that the girl was asking for it because she went back into the party and because she was a "stripper, I mean exotic dancer." When I said that she'd just gone in to get her shoes this girl turned around and told me that, "you don't just forget your shoes in a party, trust me." Then the professor told me that I was wrong because the girl wasn't a stripper, she was an exotic dancer. And I'm paying for this education!

I hope you marched yourself right over to the office to report that professor! What a horrible, biased, offensive thing to say! As for that girl who told you "you don't just forget your shoes in a party, trust me"... What did you do? Did you ask her why the fuck you should trust her? Is she a leaving-shoes-at-parties expert or something? I've forgotten PLENTY of shit at parties (that I wasn't dancing at) before.

Deogol
04-20-2006, 06:42 PM
So this is what I am hearing:

1) They danced for like 4 minutes and and then demanded $800.00. They didn't get it. I think I know a couple of pissed off strippers.

2) They made a 911 call about racist remarks - but mentioned nothing about being raped. Hmmm. I wonder how one can forget about that?!?!

3) There are pictures showing the alleged victim smiling after the alleged rape. There are pictures showing she was already scraped up upon coming to the house.

4) Some evidence she was drunk off her ass.

5) She is accusing people who were quite unlikely to have even been at the party at the time of the rape and have PROOF they weren't there.

Things are not looking good for her.

neworleansquestion
04-21-2006, 04:37 AM
The difficult thing is that the fact that he had sick fantasies doesn't prove he is a rapist. Also the fact that guys rarely talk about things like that seriously with other guys would suggest that he was joking. Either way yes the jury will hate him but he's not one of the accused.

erotictonic
04-21-2006, 04:43 AM
They did it. If a person has been raped alot, and/or is messed up in the head and is on drugs and/or alcohol, they can act in all sorts of strange ways, waking up the next day disgusted that they were raped. That's why it doesn't matter how it looks, it only matters whether the crime was committed. Have ya' ever fucked a guy/girl while you were drunk/stoned and woke up next to them feeling disgusted b/c you fucked them? Same sort of thing.

kellykelly
04-21-2006, 05:09 AM
i love to watch donny deutsch...
he always has people in hot debates...
on monday he covered the duke lacrosse stripper rape ordeal and played parts of an interview with the second dancer at the party...
she said that she was from a different agency than the victim and they had never met....when the victim went into the party, she was alert and composed, when she left the party, she basically had to be carried out...
so more than likely was slipped something....also the 2nd dancer said that the boys were practically forcing drinks on the victim...
the victim was a student at duke... i find it shameful that the victim is constantly referred to as a "stripper"...not a woman or a college student or a mother... i hate that!

i strongly believe that something awful happened to the poor girl...

azcustomer
04-21-2006, 02:47 PM
^^^^
KK:

The media's coverage is deplorable.

By the way - she's a student at the local public university, not Duke
She went from coherent to passed out in a little over an hour. The gal didn't look anorexic so that would be difficult to do with just alcohol.

She wasn't treated at the hospital until over three hours after the alleged rape. That would give time for date rape drugs to metabolize out of her system. Date rape drugs would also explain a lack of memory.

I suspect that the gal doesn't have good representation that is helping her peice together what happened and who it was. She's forced to do so with the police with everything being recorded to undergo future scrutiny.

kellykelly
04-21-2006, 02:51 PM
what a shame....
that the 2nd dancer contacted a pr firm...
she went from being a godsend to a curse...
that is disheartening :(

Deogol
04-21-2006, 02:56 PM
They did it. If a person has been raped alot, and/or is messed up in the head and is on drugs and/or alcohol, they can act in all sorts of strange ways, waking up the next day disgusted that they were raped. That's why it doesn't matter how it looks, it only matters whether the crime was committed. Have ya' ever fucked a guy/girl while you were drunk/stoned and woke up next to them feeling disgusted b/c you fucked them? Same sort of thing.

Glad to see you made up your mind already.

Deogol
04-21-2006, 02:57 PM
what a shame....
that the 2nd dancer contacted a pr firm...
she went from being a godsend to a curse...
that is disheartening :(

I don't think it is such a bad idea - the media can make her look like an idiot. Imagine saying something and then having Sean Hannity or Bill O'Reilly tear it up on national TV.

Deanna
04-21-2006, 03:19 PM
I have yet to post my view on this topic because I DO NOT make judgements on ANYONE until all the facts are presented. It really saddens me to see how people here are prejudging everyone in this case..... What ever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty??? Seems some here have already made their decisions I am just glad they are not part of the jury if and when it is shown the guys are innocent....
Just something to think about.... As women in the bizz, we all know or should know not all dancers/escorts/or people in general are honest.....people these days sue over everything!! Don't always be so quick to judge.... wait for ALL the facts to come to the surface. It might take some time but the truth will come out.

Just my:twocents:

Melonie
04-24-2006, 03:47 PM
I agree with your interpretation regarding the 'truth' eventually coming out.

However, the media has been sparing no effort lately to make sure that the 'stereotype' comes out. Yesterday's hook was a news story with 'Escort' in the headline. Today's news story has 'drug abuse' in the headline based on a defense filing to force records release about the accuser's medical history.



I stick by my original contention, that ANY mainstream publicity involving exotic dancers in any way ALWAYS winds up doing more harm than good in regard to the mental impression of dancers held by Americans in genera. The duke case is certainly proving no exception.

Gia2608
04-24-2006, 08:47 PM
First off all please don't ever post anything that Rush Limbaugh says on here. Forcing us all to read it is torture! (J/k) but Old Rush couldn't get laid in a whorehouse with a platinum Visa card.

I thought it was creepy that they showed the other dancer (a witness I guess?) involved in the case's picture on AOL. Also, I Love how the media ( for the most part) neglects to mention that the girl that was raped is a student at another university/ oh well....

southstbabe
04-25-2006, 11:38 AM
I've had it with the media that keeps refering to the "stripper" that got raped. I've always thought it's a "women" that gets raped, not what she does for a living.

logan820
04-26-2006, 08:12 AM
its getting interesting...blame the victum a lot of these guys have misdemnor charges i would really like to see if any one else gets charged its nice to see that Nancy Grace is defending her she referred to her as a student last night

Tara Nicole
04-26-2006, 10:31 AM
She is also former military. Navy, I think it was. How often have we heard that fact when the media reports on this story ? Almost never.

MeganR
05-03-2006, 12:47 AM
Interesting article about the whole thing here:

Rush to Judgment at Duke (http://www.reason.com/cy/cy050206.shtml)
By Cathy Young

Optimist
05-12-2006, 09:11 AM
The cab driver giving an alibi to one of the Duke lacrosse players charged with assault has now been arrested. It seems Boaz Mostafa had an open warrant for larceny. He allegedly stole handbags worth $250 each.

kitkat824
05-13-2006, 03:00 AM
I used to work in domestic violence/sex assault through a city nonprofit. For over a year, it frustrated the hell out of me. It was so depressing.

Most rapes aren't reported to the police because victims don't want to go through it again or can't yet talk about it.

The ones that are reported are sometimes taken by ignorant officers (both guys and females!) who taint their intake of the stories with prejudices they hold themselves. These officers play judge and jury in this way--a major problem. Sometimes the victim can't bring themselves to tell the whole truth because they worry about this judgment--another reason you hear about victims changing their stories. Obviously, this does not look good for a victim if the press is covering the story (extremely rare).

Even when the victim goes to a hospital and a SANE nurse administers a rape kit, it's still really hard to find and collect evidence. Remember, they're going over people's bodies. When you take clothes off, put them on, walk around, etc--hairs and other teensy little things like skin cells do not stay in place! Plus, victims sometimes shower or clean themselves in some way soon after the assault. The primitive way they collect evidence doesn't help, either. When they scrape under a victim's nails for skin cells, the cells could be gone for some reason as dumb as the victim bites her nails or the fact that you put what you scrape into a folded up piece of 8.5 X 11 piece of paper which they put into an envelope and a box!! Yes, a manila envelope!!

These are just a couple reasons why most rape cases actually have little or *no* DNA evidence.

Ugh. I don't want to get myself started.

kitkat824
05-13-2006, 03:01 AM
EXACTLY, southstbabe.

gypsy_girlchild
05-13-2006, 08:45 AM
^^I agree..
I know of many girls that were raped (heck, I even know some the rapists) BUT the girls had been drugged and, to themselves, couldn't prove that they had been raped. One even went to the nurse who could see how battered up she was in her vaginal region, but she had been raped before and was in shock overit happening all over again.
I would have loved to sic a few guy friends on the guy, but she begged me not to. It was awful having to help her through that, and she still has her bad days.
The worst is what she can't remember. All she knows is she woke up without clothes, hurting very badly.
Rape is rarely reported or lied about whenit is reported that I wish we would believe them first and ask questions later.

Optimist
05-13-2006, 10:17 AM
The ones that are reported are sometimes taken by ignorant officers (both guys and females!) who taint their intake of the stories with prejudices they hold themselves. These officers play judge and jury in this way--a major problem. Sometimes the victim can't bring themselves to tell the whole truth because they worry about this judgment--another reason you hear about victims changing their stories. Obviously, this does not look good for a victim if the press is covering the story (extremely rare).

Something similar happened to me. I had a neighbor who would scream obscenities in the hallway for hours. He was a bit cracked. He strarted screaming disgusting things at me and I wasn't having it so I called the cops. They listened to my side--that this freak had called me a bitch and a whore as I passed him in the hall, and the cop said "Well are you?" I thought he was out of his mind! I said "Nooo." and he said " Sure about that?" Douchebag!!
My friend was standing with me and she tried to intervene and explain it to him again. He blew her off and gave the guy a slap on the wrist!!!
I called another day for his bullshit and I got a great cop who read him the riot act. The justice you get is so dependent on the LUCK of what cop shows up. And they won't let you call in another cop if there's a problem with the first one!!! You just have to suffer whatever they do to fuckup your case and go to AIB later. A.nd then worry about retaliation.

Djoser
05-13-2006, 04:03 PM
I've had good luck with cops, by and large--but this is very true!

In their defense, they deal with so many losers and scumbags on a daily/nightly basis, that a certain cynicism is probably a necessary defense mechanism for the retention of sanity.

But my defense of cops ends here.

Now we consider the all too common shabby treatment dispensed by sexist morons, who equate the word "stripper" with 'woman waiting to be arrested if she does the slightest thing wrong', or 'woman not to be believed under any circumstances'.

The statistics say that cops beat their wives more than any other profession's members. I'm inclined to believe it.

There are good cops out there, and they are necessary, but it sucks that we are forced to play Roulette every time we might need one.

Once I called the cops to report a VCR stolen--they brought a drug dog to search my room (I was staying in a shitty hotel many years ago). Needless to say, i never found the VCR, they never caught the thief.

I can only imagine the rage and frustration of a rape victim when the person showing up to 'help' her is a wise-cracking Neanderthal...

Tara Nicole
05-13-2006, 06:16 PM
The justice you get is so dependent on the LUCK of what cop shows up. And they won't let you call in another cop if there's a problem with the first one!!! You just have to suffer whatever they do to fuckup your case and go to AIB later. A.nd then worry about retaliation.

So true, very good point.

Silky
05-13-2006, 06:35 PM
Haha my mother always warned me never to marry a cop...

The Snark
06-04-2006, 08:35 AM
FYI:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10464110/sex__scandal_at_duke

Reminds me of the things Ariel Levy wrote about in Female Chauvinist Pigs.

mark45y
06-04-2006, 10:43 AM
FYI:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10464110/sex__scandal_at_duke

Reminds me of the things Ariel Levy wrote about in Female Chauvinist Pigs.

Did anyone actually read all four pages of that? My God how retro. I graduated from college in 1967 and things haven’t changed a bit. It is like déjà vu all over again

francescadubois
06-04-2006, 02:07 PM
''I've never been asked out on a date in my entire life -- not once,'' says one stunning brunette. Nor has a guy ever bought her a drink. ''I think that if anybody ever did that, I would ask him if he were on drugs,'' she says. ''You'll hook up with a guy, and you know that nothing will come out of it,'' says Anna. The best thing you can hope for, she says, ''is that you'll get to hook up with him again.'' Some girls they know have managed to score a regular hookup -- meaning consistent sex -- but others play the field, bouncing from one guy to the next. :'(


http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10464110/sex__scandal_at_duke/2

Classic. This is women think of themselves today. A lot of the girls on MY campus are like this. A damn shame, really...