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The Snark
04-30-2006, 08:26 PM
A slight tangent here. Last week there was a poster who floated a mathematical formula for explaining strip-club behaviour and who was promptly flamed off the site. But he included a link to a blog about a strip club, which, as it happens, is the same one I sometimes visit. So I started reading his blog (http://cafecleopatra.blogspot.com/). And his entry for Thursday was as follows:

Aren't we all victims of some form of a compulsive impulsive form of behavior?
You say to yourself, I am going to pay a short visit to that strip club. Just a short visit. You go to that strip club. You were planning to just spend an hour or so in there, but you end up spending more than that, much more. You just don't want to leave. Why should you go back into that dull world? Your strip club looks just like a paradise. You are much tempted by those sexy strippers. A stripper comes by. She is so sexy, she is so friendly. She asks if you wanna a dance, you're so lonely, but you don't have enough money. You ask the stripper to wait while you go to the ATM. You know that you need that money to do something else but you still go to the ATM. You go back , you tell the stripper that all is ok and that you can go to the booths. A Few dances later, the fantasy is over, and you pay the girl all the money you took from the ATM.

His closing line, which he has since deleted, was: "I hate myself and I wish I had the courage to commit suicide."
Now, if this is not the mind of an addict engaging in self-destructive behaviour, I don't know what is. How common is this? I don't think anyone could say. But I'm sure that there are many other customers who go through the same sort of torment, and I'm equally sure that the strippers who sell them dances are totally oblivious to what's going through their minds.

Jenny
04-30-2006, 08:32 PM
^^^
Or he reads this site and has been reading this thread....

Seriously, not everyone buying something they cannot afford is an addict. In fact, most aren't. Or perhaps they are, but if that is so then the culpability is more or less the same across the board. Not everyone who regrets buying something after they buy is an addict/compulsive. And trust me - I know from compulsion.

Jenny
04-30-2006, 09:27 PM
no one, including xdamage, has asked anyone to feel guilty.
Okay. Now I feel so confused. The title of the thread is "do you ever feel guilty?"

if you're aware that retarded customer is doing retarded things for you, because he thinks (an idea of his own creation) it will get him somewhere. well, his retardness isn't your responsibility. OTOH, as a stripper, you can either refuse or benefit from his retardedness. however, whatever course of action you decide to take. you are responsible for that decision.
Okay, the word "responsibility" doesn't really encompass what we are talking about here. I am, by definition, "responsible" for everything I do - like the socks I choose in the morning and choosing cafe verona over french roast. However, this thread is referring to a certain degree of culpability.

And, again, you are assuming things about my customer, or my former customer, based on your own preferences.

xdamage seems to admire strippers who are aware they're benefiting from a customer's retardedness more than strippers who are not. frankly, i could care less, but he thinks otherwise.
Well, again. This is not about simple awareness. And, again, I actually, really and truly don't think my customers are retarded.

an informed, mature sc customer? LOL....now, that's funny! hold on, i think i need to go change my underwear.
Okay, take your point. And, by the way, way too much information. When we need to know about your panties, we'll ask. But he is a allowed to go around making much larger purchases and nobody bats an eye.

well, he's not doing it now. look, xdamage doesn't mind if a stripper decides to take the money. his pet peeve seems to be whether or not she's aware of her decision and it's impact.
Again, you are draining the question of the question. His position is that a stripper who feels guilty for taking a customer's money is more emotionally mature than one who doesn't - and moreover that one doesn't sees things in a childish "black and white" way. My position is that guilt is, except in exceptional circumstances, entirely misplaced and generally unnecessary, specifically because we are NOT victimizing the customers, but providing them with what they want. In those instances in which it is appropriate to feel guilty - that is, that you have specific knowledge or are behaving in a way that would warrant it, then I think it would be better to NOT DO IT/NOT TAKE HIS MONEY than to just sit around feeling bad about it.

GFE is still a false sense of intimacy and moving from GFE to an actual relationship is a very tough proposition. i'm not saying it's impossible, but i wouldn't go to a sc looking to beat the odds. however, many retarded customers do.
Well I'm not a gambling person, so I don't recommend that anyone try to beat the odds. However, I would contend that many people enjoy the fake intimacy with any delusions of "realifying" it, and some without any desire to make it genuine. Like I have customers who are married, and who are pretty fond of their wives.

i value results..production. i don't care exactly what a guy wants. so, if he wants a stripper to stand on her head and sing "O'Canada". well, find a stripper who can deliver the goods. otherwise, why pay a stripper that can't stand on her head and sing "O'Canada"? yet, many customers will pay a stripper that can't stand on her head and sing "O'Canada". which is why i find them so entertaining.
Yeah, see you say that, but you lie. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt, but you are a filthy, vicious liar. You don't believe that other guys want something that you don't want. So you do "care" - I mean, I doubt it's keeping you up at night, but the gist of this ongoing argument is that some guys want to buy something you don't want to buy and so they are idiots who don't really want to buy what they ostensibly want to buy, but are buying it anyway.

well, whether he has realized it or not. you do see my point. he was looking to turn this stripper into his GF. so, he did all these retarded things for her hoping it would get him a GF. it got him nothing. so, now he's mad about it...."caveat emptor".
I agree that is HIS situation. I don't know that it applies to my customers.

hmmm...you don't know exactly what "cuddle bitch" means, do you?
Um, no. I was taking it as a colloquialism that had been invented on the spot. According to your definition then, he is not a cuddle bitch. I mean he does get some fairly serious sexual contact, just no sex.

basically, it's sort of like a gay male friend of a woman. it's a guy who wants a relationship with a woman. except, the woman doesn't want to have a relationship with the guy. however, in every other respect she treats him like a BF (ie: hence the "cuddle" in cuddle bitch).
Okay, now I'm confused. Does she fuck the cuddle bitch, or not? Like are we talking about friendly cuddles and company, or no-strings sex? Because I thought you guys liked that.

actually, quite the opposite. i sure he likes you very much. in fact, so much, i'm sure he would still like you to be his GF. look, it really doesn't matter how many times you tell him it ain't happening. he's going to have to reach this conclusion all on his own.
Okay, well, what I meant was that some people also like me without agenda. I mean y'all can't really tell, but I'm really nice when you get to know me.

well, since you don't seem to know what cuddle bitch means. i'll let this one pass because that's not what i'm getting at.

Thank you, I was confused. However, my point stands sans the cuddle-bitch expression.

Nicolina
04-30-2006, 09:36 PM
I do think stripclubs can be addictive--and not just for the guys.

I don't think there's a particularly legitimate distinction between addiction to a substance and addiction to a behavior. Cocaine blocks your dopamine receptors and so that your brain gets flooded with dopamine. Sex (or something like it) floods your brain with all kinds of hormones, endorphins, and other neurotransmitters. Either way, you're getting high on your brain's own happy chemicals.

I had a really hard time adjusting to life after stripping because it was very much like quitting an addiction. I still miss the high-stimulus environment and the adrenalin-n-hormone rush of a really good night...When I first quit, the craving was painfully intense. Occasionally, it still is.

I think it's undeniable that some guys--a small percentage of SC customers--get addicted to the chemical & sexual rush they get from some of their interactions in clubs. I was surprised that Jenny didn't acknowledge that outright. In some cases, it's a fairly harmless addiction...In other cases, real damage to they guy's life may result because he can't control his SC urges.

Should we feel guilty? I don't know.

I mean, a lapdance isn't (in my opinion) inherently harmful--so it isn't like cigarettes.

It isn't (probably) as addictive as, say, heroin--so I don't think we should feel as guilty as a dope dealer should.

It isn't as risky as gambling in that you can't really lose quite as big--If you spend 20 grand at a club, at least you got 20 grand in liquor and lapdances...(ok, I guess it's similar to gambling in that all you really have in the end is the memory of the experience...but still--when you're gambling, you're not paying market value for a service, you're just risking the money you have in exchange for a small chance that you'll end up with more at the end of the game).

The only real problem with selling a lapdance is that it isn't a necessity. I mean, a doctor doesn't feel guilty when he charges a patient for some procedure, even if he knows that the patient can barely afford the charge. Why? Because he feels that the procedure is necessary.

But a lapdance (arguably!) is NOT a necessity. So, the only possible source of guilt is that we're peddling a pleasurable luxury to someone who should be spending the money on a necessity....Right?

I can think of a couple customers of mine who did seem addicted. Sometimes it seemed that they could afford the addiction, but sometimes it was apparent that their money would probably have been better spent elsewhere (my diner-waiter regular comes to mind.)

I did feel a little guilty about that, I guess--but then, I felt sorta uncomfortable about the whole situation with that guy. I was never very good at stringing along devoted regulars...I made it a point to employ a minimal amount of SS in general, and regulars always seemed to require more than I was comfortable dishing out.

In the end, I figured that, as punk might say, all's fair in love and cock-grinding. A fool and his money are soon parted, but then again, god protects fools and little children. It all evens out in the end. No matter how nice a person she may be outside the hallowed, carpeted walls of the VIP room, a stripper's got to have a mercenary attitude or she'll be eaten alive (no pun intended.)

I was addicted to stripping, he was addicted to my lapdances, both of us probably could've been doing more productive things with our time but what the hey? We were both grown-ups and capable of choosing a quick and dirty high over some sort of delayed gratification.

I guess that's all I have to say on the subject.

(Except that dlab seriously needs to chill--Dlab, if you think you can win an argument with Jenny, you're clearly suffering from delusions of grandeur. I know, i know--no diagnoses--Sorry JZ!!!)

ok, now, back to calculus. and entomology. and linguistics. argh.

Jenny
04-30-2006, 10:53 PM
Oh, Nicolina. I have missed you so much; I envy your self-control.


I don't think there's a particularly legitimate distinction between addiction to a substance and addiction to a behavior. Cocaine blocks your dopamine receptors and so that your brain gets flooded with dopamine. Sex (or something like it) floods your brain with all kinds of hormones, endorphins, and other neurotransmitters. Either way, you're getting high on your brain's own happy chemicals.
Ooh, honey. Seriously, Nic, I have all due respect for all your bioligcal, sciency knowledge, because I don't have any of it. What I do have, in this instance, is some limited experience with heroin addicts. And I know - like, know, know, know - that it is different. People get addicted to all kinds of behaviours - sex, shopping, certain kinds of risk taking. But there is an inherent difference. Like, if nothing else (and there is other things) you are a lot more likely to be a addict of heroin if you use it regularly than an addict of shopping. You don't get chills, constipation and then lose controls of your bowels coming off of shopping or stripclubs. You are also highly unlikely to get AIDS or Hep, to die, develop ulcers and eating disorders etc., etc. There is a difference between chemical and behavioural addiction.


I think it's undeniable that some guys--a small percentage of SC customers--get addicted to the chemical & sexual rush they get from some of their interactions in clubs. I was surprised that Jenny didn't acknowledge that outright. In some cases, it's a fairly harmless addiction...In other cases, real damage to they guy's life may result because he can't control his SC urges.
I think I did acknowledge it outright. I also said, however, that the percentage is likely to be very, very small, not easily identified and the industry was not set up, the way tobacco companies are, to foster addiction. I think the comparator I used was the Gap. Are they responsible for shopping addicts the way Rothmans is responsible for nicotine addicts? I just can't see that.


Should we feel guilty? I don't know.
Okay, I shall tell a story. A friend of my dad's - and don't ask how I know this story - wife left him, and he became terribly depressed. He made the decision to commit suicide, liquidated everything and started spending like a maniac (planning on leaving nothing, incidentally, for his small son). A huge amount of this spending went on in and around strip clubs. When I say 'around' I mean like he brought in expensive gifts. He spends tons of money, and then at the end of about a year - when he runs out - kills himself. I believe he jumped off something, but I'm not sure. Now, I doubt that these women knew anything of what was going on inside this guy's head. As far as they know he is just a guy who likes to spend money. There are lots of them. Should they feel guilty? I mean, I would certainly feel bad if I ever found out. But does that mean that it translates into my fault or become my responsibility in any way? That is - should I feel "guilt" in its proper, responsiblity laden sense, outside of normal, human shock and sympathy? I mean, if you knew about it beforehand, and kept taking his money, frankly I think it is a bloody poor measure of character to say "Well, I still took his money, and I bear the responsibility, but I'm honest about it." That actually happened, by the way. Nothing to do with me as a dancer, I was a child.

To be perfectly honest, guys come in to see me (or not to see me) for all sorts of reasons, and they vary from normal to moderately lame and predictable to incredibly depressing. And frequently the more depressing the story, the more they have reason to value the service I provide. But all I can know about them is what I know - if you know what I mean by that. And if I have no reason other than the brand of a guy's jeans to believe that he "can't afford a dance" - that is that he is making decisions based on compulsive/addictive behaviour - I can't see that I'm accountable or responsible for it.


a stripper's got to have a mercenary attitude or she'll be eaten alive (no pun intended.)
I think even with the pun it holds true.



(Except that dlab seriously needs to chill--Dlab, if you think you can win an argument with Jenny, you're clearly suffering from delusions of grandeur. I know, i know--no diagnoses--Sorry JZ!!!)
Indeed. I am a pitbull. Just. Grr. But really - he won insofar as I stopped arguing with him before he stopped arguing with me. In terms of internet arguments, I think that counts. So maybe they are not delusions after all.

Nicolina
05-01-2006, 12:08 AM
Jenny, I've missed you, too!!

Wish i could write more, BUT:

My point about the addictions was that there is a biochemical, physiological component to both types of addiction. You don't get addicted to shoplifting itself (or whatever)--you get addicted to the cocktail of neurochemicals that floods your brain when you slip that eyeliner(or whatever) into your pocket.

Obviously, there are degrees of addiction: some substances (whether they are purposely imbibed or naturally produced) are more addictive than others, and some addictions are more benign than others. There's a spectrum of addiction--or maybe compulsion would be a better word.

People who exercise compulsively are probably addicted to the endorphin rush, but their "addiction" is probably not going to do them much harm beyond the occasional sports injury, and taking time away from other worthwhile pursuits.

People who visit stripclubs compulsively may be "addicted," but it is unlikely to be as destructive an addiction as heroin. (i've dealt with heroin addicts, too, and i agree that it is some powerful & terrifying shit.) Still--I can see some pretty destructive scenarios: a guy who spends all of his savings, goes deeply into debt, his wife finds out the extent and source of his spending, the marriage goes to shit, now he has alimony on top of everything else, he's lost his home and his family, becomes deeply depressed...say his compulsion extends to visiting other sex workers--yes, i know that most prostitutes are very careful about condom use, etc, but still, he's increasing his risk of being exposed to the same nasty diseases that the heroin addicts may contract....It's an extreme scenario, but I think we've all known at least one guy who seemed to be flirting with this sort of thing....

And in the story you told about your dad's friend, I don't think the dancers should have been expected to feel guilty in the least--he was suicidal, not addicted. They didn't contribute to his depression or his desire to commit suicide. The dancers presumably had no way to know that he wasn't just a wealthy guy who could afford to throw money around. OTOH, an argument could be made that dancers contribute to a guy's SC addiction, and are partly responsible if the addiction ruins his life. I'm not saying I'd agree with that argument, I'm just saying that it could be made.

The OP seemed to be referring to guys who seemed unable to afford the luxury, but spent a lot of money in the clubs anyway....I think the question was whether, if you have an inkling that a guy can't really afford you, should you feel guilty about taking his money?

xdamage
05-01-2006, 05:34 AM
I do think stripclubs can be addictive--and not just for the guys.
I did feel a little guilty about that, I guess--but then, I felt sorta uncomfortable about the whole situation with that guy. I was never very good at stringing along devoted regulars...I made it a point to employ a minimal amount of SS in general, and regulars always seemed to require more than I was comfortable dishing out.


Like I said about the original poster, I think it's admirable that you can do what you have to do, and want to do, and still maintain some sense of awareness and compassion for the small percentage of other (human) customers that affects in a negative way.



In the end, I figured that, as punk might say, all's fair in love and cock-grinding. A fool and his money are soon parted, but then again, god protects fools and little children. It all evens out in the end. No matter how nice a person she may be outside the hallowed, carpeted walls of the VIP room, a stripper's got to have a mercenary attitude or she'll be eaten alive (no pun intended.)



Interesting way to put it ;)

There is always going to be tensions between what people want, and not everyone is going to fair equally. There is no point in feeling overwhelming guilt about that, but it's also unhealthy to block out all awareness of it. We all need to make a living, and we can't all plod along at the rate of the slowest among us for fear that someone is going to be left behind. That's how the world has evolved, and it's what works. But people also need each other to survive, and balancing what the individual wants with what's best for the group is part of the struggle we all deal with. And it too is what works.

Healthy human's have evolved some sense of awareness of other human beings, and how our actions impact on others. For many that awareness manifests itself as feelings of guilt or remorse when we significantly violate our sense of balance.

I think most people's difficult with this topic is due to black and white thinking. They want a world in which they NEVER feel guilt, or a world in which the mercenary approach is ALWAYS the right approach. Or the other extreme, a world in which people ALWAYS put others first. That would be really simple, great if you have the mind of a child, but it doesn't work.

In the real world people struggle to get the best deal they can for themselves while maintaining some balance with what others want. It's what works. Along the way sometimes we benefit at the expense of others. Along the way sometimes others benefit at our expense. For me the healthy person does what they have to do, but still maintains some sense of compassion for others and considers that when choosing between what they want and what is best for others.

mr_punk
05-01-2006, 05:41 AM
Okay, I really wanted to stay out of this one, but this comment sets me off. Why on Earth do you believe that you know this guy? How do you know he hasn't already reached that conclusion?oh gee, i don't know. i guess, it was the way he stalked her from guam to canada among other things. i mean, even she thought that was weird.

It's so elitist for you to believe that the only way a guy is not a retard for buying a stripper's time is for him to have the same goals as you do.oh crap..it's "fantasy" thread deux. that's not what i said, cupcake. i said, buy what you want, but make sure she can produce. call me crazy, but i think it's kind of retarded to buy something you don't want from someone who can't deliver. i have this weird idea that it will lead to dissatisfaction. but hey, you're strippers. you ladies seem to take pride in your unconventional behavior. so, maybe you broads do this kind of thing all the time. well, do you?

There are plenty of guys in this forum who pay a stripper for some temporary attention.the operative word being "temporary". i'm not talking about a temporary GF. furthermore, you had no problem telling the guy upstairs to change his perspective about trying to turn a ho into a housewife. well, if it's good enough for you. it's good enough for me.

mr_punk
05-01-2006, 05:46 AM
Okay. Now I feel so confused. The title of the thread is "do you ever feel guilty?"LOL...ok. strippers should feel guilty and responsible for taking the money of a customer who can't afford it. does that make you feel better now?

Okay, the word "responsibility" doesn't really encompass what we are talking about here. I am, by definition, "responsible" for everything I do - like the socks I choose in the morning and choosing cafe verona over french roast. However, this thread is referring to a certain degree of culpability.strange, i thought i said you're not culpable for his retardedness. look, i know what the title says, but i don't happen to agree with it. given the way you have misconstrued posts lately. it's seems as if you're disappointed and you want us to say otherwise to make you happy.

Well, again. This is not about simple awareness. And, again, I actually, really and truly don't think my customers are retarded.well, he's big on this whole awareness thing. frankly, i could care less..

His position is that a stripper who feels guilty for taking a customer's money is more emotionally mature than one who doesn't - and moreover that one doesn't sees things in a childish "black and white" way.and that emotionally mature bit really chaps your hide, doesn't it? i bet you think it just oozes with patriarcial condescension.

Well I'm not a gambling person, so I don't recommend that anyone try to beat the odds. However, I would contend that many people enjoy the fake intimacy with any delusions of "realifying" it, and some without any desire to make it genuine. Like I have customers who are married, and who are pretty fond of their wives.yeah, but my point is there's a huge difference between the two and retarded customers fall into the trap of not making that distinction.

Yeah, see you say that, but you lie. I'm sorry to have to be so blunt, but you are a filthy, vicious liar. You don't believe that other guys want something that you don't want. So you do "care" - I mean, I doubt it's keeping you up at night, but the gist of this ongoing argument is that some guys want to buy something you don't want to buy and so they are idiots who don't really want to buy what they ostensibly want to buy, but are buying it anyway.it's like i told evan. you're strippers. so, maybe you broads do buy things you don't want from someone who can't deliver. LOL...and people wonder why i call strippers flaky. oh, you poor thing. again, you sound so disappointed. this must be an anti-climactic experience for you. it's like you saw this thread and strated frothing at the mouth, busted out the ball-breaking tool kit and there's not a scrotum in sight to use it on.

Um, no. I was taking it as a colloquialism that had been invented on the spot. According to your definition then, he is not a cuddle bitch. I mean he does get some fairly serious sexual contact, just no sex.well, sex also separates a cuddle bitch from a non-cuddle bitch. you see, cuddle bitches want the whole ball of wax. the relationship, the sex, the inevitable nagging and ball breaking, etc.

Okay, now I'm confused. Does she fuck the cuddle bitch, or not? Like are we talking about friendly cuddles and company, or no-strings sex? Because I thought you guys liked that.sorry, there is no sex with a cuddle bitch. i think that's what they call a friend with benefits.

Jenny
05-01-2006, 07:20 AM
LOL...ok. strippers should feel guilty and responsible for taking the money of a customer who can't afford it. does that make you feel better now?
sigh. I wish people would stop talking to me like I'm some sort of a crazy person. Look, you're acting right now like I'm pulling this guilt/culpability/responsibility thing out of my butt. This is what the thread is dealing with. If you are dealing with something else, you are the one making things up, not me.


strange, i thought i said you're not culpable for his retardedness.
Actually my position was that he wasn't retarded.


look, i know what the title says, but i don't happen to agree with it. given the way you have misconstrued posts lately. it's seems as if you're disappointed and you want us to say otherwise to make you happy.
Okay, now I'm absolutely confused. You started out by trying to argue x's position, which most certainly had something to do with guilt. And now you're saying that you are... arguing something else?


well, he's big on this whole awareness thing. frankly, i could care less..
Well, you clearly care a little bit. After all. Here we are. Again.


and that emotionally mature bit really chaps your hide, doesn't it? i bet you think it just oozes with patriarcial condescension.
Yes I do. Although I really think it is pretty much just a way of hurling insults at people who don't agree with you. I prefer the direct approach: e.g. you are, right now, likely just compensating for the fact that you only have one testicle.


yeah, but my point is there's a huge difference between the two and retarded customers fall into the trap of not making that distinction.
Um. Okay. Well my customers are aware that I am not the aforementioned wife. Therefore they are not retarded. Just out of curiosity - how would a customer act, short of acting like you, to show that they are in fact buying something that they want?


it's like i told evan. you're strippers. so, maybe you broads do buy things you don't want from someone who can't deliver. LOL...and people wonder why i call strippers flaky.
Again, my position was that he was buying something he DID want, and that he got and was satisfied with. Although once I ordered a pair of shoes off of ebay that I never received. Is that what you're talking about?


oh, you poor thing. again, you sound so disappointed. this must be an anti-climactic experience for you. it's like you saw this thread and strated frothing at the mouth, busted out the ball-breaking tool kit and there's not a scrotum in sight to use it on.
Oh, I dunno. I feel like I've been doing okay.


well, sex also separates a cuddle bitch from a non-cuddle bitch. you see, cuddle bitches want the whole ball of wax. the relationship, the sex, the inevitable nagging and ball breaking, etc.
Well, I am a champion at the nagging and the ball breaking. But really, I don't think that is what any guy has in mind. So, again - what you are saying here is that no sexual contact short of sex has value.


sorry, there is no sex with a cuddle bitch. i think that's what they call a friend with benefits.Oh god. Another expression that bugs the freaking hell out of me.

And, since you don't remember - he didn't technically stalk me from Guam to Canada. He was restationed somewhere much closer. And the whole thread that started that was "Is this weird?" You guys, as a body, ASSURED me that it wasn't. You can't take it back now, like 10 years later. It was established then that it was at least a semi-normal thing to do.

Jenny
05-01-2006, 07:34 AM
Jenny, I've missed you, too!!

Wish i could write more, BUT:
Well, if you finish for the summer term, you shall be expected to live here.

Me, I find the more I study the more I SW (yes, stripperweb is, henceforth, a verb). Because I take short breaks without moving from my desk. Although the day I finished I was like - I am moving around today. All my blood has pooled in my ass.

xdamage
05-01-2006, 03:36 PM
Okay, now I'm absolutely confused. You started out by trying to argue x's position, which most certainly had something to do with guilt. And now you're saying that you are... arguing something else?


You said yourself, you have some code of morales, and you try to stick to it, even when it comes to customers. And of course sometimes you slip up. We all do. We are human. So for all the arguing, and all the nit-picking over the word "guilt", I don't see anything wrong with the original poster having some morales of her own, and feeling some guilt or remorse or whatever word we nit-pick about, when she violates her own sense of what is right and wrong.


But, if you want it straight. My subjective feeling is here you are arguing because you are terrified of being found guilty of something. That the word itself is a cause of anxiety. And it's more black and white thinking to me. Jenny is all good or all bad, but not some grey mix of both traits (like most of us humans). There is no way to win because the topic gets turned into a topic about Jenny and why Jenny is guiltless.



Yes I do. Although I really think it is pretty much just a way of hurling insults at people who don't agree with you. I prefer the direct approach: e.g. you are, right now, likely just compensating for the fact that you only have one testicle.


I was very being very direct. It's insulting, yes, but not for the sake of it. It's intended to help you understand that I think your perceptions are skewed by a way of thinking. Black and white thinking (and you can find a ton of info about this via Google to start) is a hold over from childhood think, and for many adults it persists into their adulthead. They want absolutes and aren't comfortable with shades of grey. In the context of this thread ---

The absolute way of thinking - NEVER feel guilty EVER. NEVER feel ANY responsibility for your customers because there is no way to be 100% sure of what they are thinking. This is all or nothing, black or white reasoning. Likewise "I NEVER knowingly take advantage of others" is black and white thinking. It's a very absolute, all or nothing way of seeing one's own behavior (or others).

The grey way of thinking - Sometimes feel guilty if you knowingly take advantage of others or hurt others by tricking them/lying to them, mislead them, etc., not because you are completely sure, but you are reasonably sure. Or alternatively, make a decision not to feel guilty because you are aware that you are the kind of person that doesn't mind taking advantage of others sometimes to get what you want. Doesn't mean you always do so, just means you knowingly do so sometimes and have accepted that part of you (not all of you) doesn't care if you benefit at the expense of another. Again, a very grey way to think, and a much realistic acceptance of how people really behave.

The problem is I write that, and then you're going to go off on a rampage about how I'm approving of mis-treating others. But you'd be wrong, and the bottom line is you won't be able to understand my position until you let go of seeing things in terms of needing to be all good, or all bad. Real people are mixes of traits. Some are just oblivious to the negatives in themselves, but being oblivious is not an excuse, it's just a way to avoid having to cope with the negatives of oneself and avoid responsibility (and subsequent guilt and remorse) at all costs.

dlabtot
05-01-2006, 04:11 PM
(Except that dlab seriously needs to chill--Dlab, if you think you can win an argument with Jenny, you're clearly suffering from delusions of grandeur. I know, i know--no diagnoses--Sorry JZ!!!)

There are no winners or losers in online discussions. I don't know who it is who would make such determinations. so I'm not looking to 'win an argument' with anyone. But I do like to point when someone is engaging in dishonest and misleading debate tactics. And I'm certainly am not gonna 'chill' -- in this case a euphemism for 'shut up' -- simply because you want me to.

xdamage
05-01-2006, 06:01 PM
FWIW, my company keeps me far away from customers. I'm just to damn honest. I don't feel good about stretching the truth about our products so I don't. I explain the capabilities accurately and the short comings. Our sales people on the other hand are quite good at glossing over the short comings. Most sales people are. They make up crap about release dates, and gloss over details they don't want the customers to be aware of. Nothing at all uncommon about that. Most sales people do that. Are they liars? Well ya, but no more so then say a stripper leading on a customer on. Maybe they have to bury their guilt/sense-of-truth to do their job. I don't know. Many of them end up believing their own crap and it's very hard to talk with them honestly as a result.

But for me I choose accuracy and honesty and as such I'm an Engineer, where accuracy and honesty matters. I really don't mind them doing their jobs and selling product. I benefit from the sales (my salary, benefits, bonuses, etc.) But on the other hand I'm not particularly impressed with being naive about what really is. If you mislead customers and start to believe your own BS, sooner or later you're bound to run into people that will call you on it. I also prefer to business with people that give it to me straight. I can smell BS a long way off and won't deal with sales people that are giving me BS.

evan_essence
05-01-2006, 10:35 PM
The grey way of thinking - Sometimes feel guilty if you knowingly take advantage of others or hurt others by tricking them/lying to them, mislead them, etc., not because you are completely sure, but you are reasonably sure. Or alternatively, make a decision not to feel guilty because you are aware that you are the kind of person that doesn't mind taking advantage of others sometimes to get what you want. Doesn't mean you always do so, just means you knowingly do so sometimes and have accepted that part of you (not all of you) doesn't care if you benefit at the expense of another. Again, a very grey way to think, and a much realistic acceptance of how people really behave.Your illustration consists of two courses of action. To me, that seems black and white, not gray. I can have choice one or choice two. As a matter of fact, I'd like to throw out a hypothesis that you are just as guilty of black and white thinking as anyone else here. You're merely outlining your version of black and white thinking as opposed to someone else's.


The problem is I write that, and then you're going to go off on a rampage about how I'm approving of mis-treating others. But you'd be wrong, and the bottom line is you won't be able to understand my position until you let go of seeing things in terms of needing to be all good, or all bad.Yes, that's because you're arguing a new rationale for not changing your behavior after feeling guilty. More below.


Real people are mixes of traits. Some are just oblivious to the negatives in themselves, but being oblivious is not an excuse, it's just a way to avoid having to cope with the negatives of oneself and avoid responsibility (and subsequent guilt and remorse) at all costs.First, I don't agree that's what people are necessarily doing in all cases; there's being oblivious, yes, but there's also such a thing as having a different perspective on who's responsible in a situation than your perspective. Someone is not necessarily oblivious just because they don't agree with you. I think it's really weird that, for one who espouses gray thinking so much, that you fail to acknowledge other points of view on whether guilt is legitimate in a given situation.

Second, let's assume someone is being oblivious. You're advocating that, instead, they should be aware but go ahead and do that thing for which they feel guilty anyway. What good is having guilt (let's assume it's legitimate guilt) if it's not going to change behavior? I've yet to figure out how ignoring guilt is an improvement over being oblivious to when one should feel guilty. There's no difference in the outcome, and if anything, the person who believes their guilt is justified but proceeds anyway is acting more irresponsibly than the one who does not feel the situation warrants guilt.

-Ev

evan_essence
05-01-2006, 11:22 PM
oh gee, i don't know. i guess, it was the way he stalked her from guam to canada among other things. i mean, even she thought that was weird.Yeah, for the record, I don't consider it stalking when a regular seeks out his ATF at a new club. Lots of guys here do it. Sometimes hundreds of miles away. And face it, it's not unusual for an American to live less than a lifetime on Guam before returning Stateside. Ya know, small world and all. But certainly, if you want to paint someone as a retard, you'd attach that ad hominem stalker characterization to his behavior.


oh crap..it's "fantasy" thread deux. that's not what i said, cupcake. i said, buy what you want, but make sure she can produce. call me crazy, but i think it's kind of retarded to buy something you don't want from someone who can't deliver. i have this weird idea that it will lead to dissatisfaction.Thanks for making my point that you are assuming he should want what you want, or else he's inferior to you. That's my biggest complaint about you. All that intelligence but so narrow minded about what a customer should seek.


but hey, you're strippers. you ladies seem to take pride in your unconventional behavior. so, maybe you broads do this kind of thing all the time. well, do you?Yes, I buy things I enjoy at the time that I have nothing to show for after it's over. All the time. Come to think of it, so do you if you're patronizing strippers.


the operative word being "temporary". i'm not talking about a temporary GF.I have no idea what your counterpoint is here. What part of anything purchased from a stripper is not temporary, whether it be acting like a girlfriend to letting you put your face up her ass? At the end of the interaction, both you and the other customer walk away empty handed. Which, if I remember what I've read in various threads here correctly, the lack of any remnants from the transaction is one of its benefits.


furthermore, you had no problem telling the guy upstairs to change his perspective about trying to turn a ho into a housewife. well, if it's good enough for you. it's good enough for me.Oh, how flattering, that you're reading me upstairs. I didn't know you cared that much. Is that because you read pretty much everything all strippers have to say and just happened to see it, or you search for just my stuff? Now if you'd just learn to read what's written in context. The guy to which you refer clearly did have a faulty view of his relationship to his ATF and was unhappy because of it. Given the lack of similar evidence, I don't automatically assume that Jenny's customer falls into the same boat like you do. He could just as easily be a customer more in FBR's category.

-Ev

yoda57us
05-02-2006, 10:48 PM
I vote for the latter Jay. I don't really find too many cases in the real world where people need to be saved from themselves. Ditto in strip clubs. We're all grown-ups here.