View Full Version : Gas in Arizona now $3.00/gal.?
Deogol
07-05-2006, 06:57 PM
Time to bring this one back. Oil on July 5th exceeded $75 a barrel which in even the cheap markets means gasoline will be exceeding $3.00 per gal. (if not more like $3.25.
The same analyst who was poo-poo'ed back when oil was 30 and he said it would hit 70 also says gas will hit 6.00.
God I wish I could find that damn link.
babykay26
07-09-2006, 03:32 AM
be thankful that its only 3.00. I live in CT, its gotten to over 3.50 for regular in the past year. It changes everyday. Its been at about 3.19. It SUCKS :'(
Melonie
07-09-2006, 06:05 AM
^^^ the price of crude oil is only half of the gasoline pricing picture. The other half can be found at this link ...
(keep in mind that the state gasoline excise tax prices do not include another 18 cents per gallon in federal tax. They also don't include X percent in state/local sales taxes in those states/localities which have a sales tax)
Jay Zeno
07-09-2006, 09:36 PM
again there's no arguing with the fact that in the early 70's the exchange rate was in the 300 yen to the dollar ballpark, making the US$ price of a Japanese car extremely cheap i.e. less costly than Detroit could have even built an equivalent car for without profit margin. By the Carter years, the US$ had devalued to the 200 yen ballpark, making the US$ price of a Japanese car 50% more expensive than a few years earlier. By the Clinton years, the US$ had devalued further to the 120 yen ballpark (where it more or less still is ... a 'fairly valued' level), nearly doubling the US$ price of Japanese cars on top of the previous 50% increase. Recognizing this, in the late 70's the Japanese gov't stepped up to stem slumping US exports by Japanese companies, providing subsidies to Japanese car manufacturers to offset their loss of competitiveness when the Yen exchange rate returned to somewhat 'reasonable' levels. Today Japanese cars are flat out more expensive than US cars, and the Korean Won is undervalued making them the most recent bargain.
I either missed this, or I had grown weary of the Debate Death Spiral.
Sure, I can argue with it, although doing so doesn't shed a lot of light on the situation. I was in Japan in 1978, and the exchange rate was 160 and had been falling steadily, with the Bank of Tokyo buying dollars to shore up the rate.
Honda, the first Japanese company to establish manufacturing in the U.S., didn't get subsidies, or at least at nearly the same levels, as the "traditional" Japanese auto companies. Honda had to buck the Japanese manufacturing caste system just to get their cars over here.
I assume that the falling yen was another reason that Japanese companies started building plants here. Honda produced US-assembled motorcycles in the late '70s and cars by the early '80s.
My real one point in this rhetorical drek is that I feel the traditional American car companies have failed to be truly competitive, have engaged in whining, finger-pointing, and excuse-making for their market shortcomings, rather than turning those energies into making the types of cars that the market wants.
Is that an oversimplification, not grasping all the dynamics? Sure. I just know in business, at least my business, that if you find yourself at a competitive disadvantage, you work your ass off to be competitive again. Complaining about your perceived disadvantage is understandable but off-task. You figure out what they want and crank on getting it to them.
Niceguy
07-09-2006, 10:34 PM
There is some prediction that gas will hit $3.50 in southern Illinois by August. I'm arbitrarily picking southern Illinois as almost the center of the US, and an area with minimal local gas taxes, and mass transit taxes per gal. Obviously Chicago would be a bad benchmark because it has many of the same characteristics of New York City gasoline prices, that is state taxes, county taxes, city taxes (?) and a mass transit tax per gal., plus logistic higher costs in getting the gas to the stations. If $3.50 in rural Illinois near the south, then it will easily be $4.00 in California and New York City and parts of Florida.
All bets are off if a hurricane approaches the Texas side of the Gulf near the oil installations.
TigersMilk
03-01-2008, 12:29 PM
Opening this up again...
! What the hell lets go for $4.00 a gal.!!!
Foreshadowing?
^^from another thread
Seems gas is climbing well over the $3 mark. I would kill for earlier listed gas prices in this thread. Just when I think over $3/gal is crazy..it shoots up even higher. Although around election time they'll probably dip down to the low 3's to very high 2's. They are so screwing us.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/23393698
Look out, here comes $4 a gallon gasoline
Friday, February 29, 2008
CNBC -- U.S. motorists may face gasoline prices as high as $4 a gallon this summer as crude oil costs smash records, painting a bleak picture for consumers already feeling the pinch of an economic slowdown.
Crude oil, the main feedstock refiners use to make fuel, hit an all-time peak over $102 a barrel Thursday, nearly doubling prices from a year ago amid a surge in speculative investment.
"American consumers know these oil prices are an unpleasant omen of events likely to occur at the nation's gas pumps over the next few months," said Geoff Sundstrom, spokesman for travel and auto group AAA.
"If current oil prices hold, American drivers should expect to pay new record high prices for gasoline which could easily reach $3.50 per gallon or more by summer. In some regions of the country the average price could approach $4 per gallon," Sundstrom said. </snip>
Its been said before but by summer we'll be nearing the $4 mark very closely.
hardkandee
03-01-2008, 12:55 PM
Oh balls.
Why must they hike up prices every summer? Thankfully I live in one of the cheapest places to get gas, so I suppose I shouldn't complain.
Another reason to get a Smartcar I suppose. :)
Emily
03-01-2008, 01:04 PM
Another reason to get a Smartcar I suppose. :)
what's the other reason?
BrunetteGoddess
03-01-2008, 04:34 PM
Fuck dude, it's $2.97 down here and since being back from California, this is cheap! I remember about 2 months ago gas was $3.19 in NorCal and I almost did a damn happy dance! I was used to about $3.33/gallon.
hardkandee
03-01-2008, 04:53 PM
what's the other reason?
I like small, little cars. I'd prefer to have a two-seater but can't afford a hot sports car yet.
Plus they're cheap.
doc-catfish
03-01-2008, 05:04 PM
Shoot, its $3.08 here.
I was walking through a grocery store parking lot yesterday and what I saw has caused me to conclude that we as a society are doomed. Probably within a span of 50 yards, I saw five bigger than hell SUV's, lined up one after another, trolling the lot for that parking space closest to the door. All but one of them had a single passenger aboard, and in every case the driver was some 40+ female. One was chatting on her cell phone, and another was sucking down a fountain drink, almost oblivious to the other cars and pedestrians. I could almost see the expression of entitlement oriented smugness on their faces. It was almost if to say "my immediate comfort outweighs the fact that I'm needlessly raising demand for oil." Mind you it was 55 degrees outside.
And I'm sure that scene was repeated in millions of grocery store parking lots across the country. What's it going to take to get this demographic to give up their precious not so little tanks? Four dollars a gallon? Five? Six?
BrunetteGoddess
03-01-2008, 05:08 PM
^^I dunno, but maybe they'll be living in them before they give them up..... And then I will laugh.
R's friend actually has a use for his 98 F150, but even he said if it hits $4/gal, he will have to downsize.
Emily
03-01-2008, 05:09 PM
I like small, little cars. I'd prefer to have a two-seater but can't afford a hot sports car yet.
Plus they're cheap.
it was kinda tongue-in-cheek. I didn't really think you'd answer seriously!
I can see why people like the car, but I can't imagine it being good as an only car since it has absolutely no cargo space.
However, I'm one of the Prius People, so I'm biased. :-X
hardkandee
03-01-2008, 05:24 PM
it was kinda tongue-in-cheek. I didn't really think you'd answer seriously!
I can see why people like the car, but I can't imagine it being good as an only car since it has absolutely no cargo space.
However, I'm one of the Prius People, so I'm biased. :-X
Naw, I wouldn't keep it as an only car. We'd still keep a Jetta in the family but get rid of his big ol' truck. Really though, I never use my trunk. I buy groceries and produce very frequently and never have more than two (reusable!) bags full.
I travel light.
I like the Prius too. :D
Melonie
03-01-2008, 10:13 PM
However, I'm one of the Prius People, so I'm biased
and you're also subsidized !!! Perhaps that Prius wouldn't seem such a good deal if buyers weren't being helped to pay for their Hybrids with thousands of dollars worth of other people's tax money, and if Prius owners were still being charged their fair share of 'road tax' based on miles driven rather than on gasoline purchased.
To be honest here, the world price of oil / gasoline hasn't risen all that much in the last year. Also, the world price of gold, wheat and many other global commodities haven't risen all that much either in global terms. But as Americans, we measure the prices of the gasoline and food we buy in US dollars. So what we are actually seeing for the most part is the exchange rate devaluation of the US dollar versus most other world currencies !
I was walking through a grocery store parking lot yesterday and what I saw has caused me to conclude that we as a society are doomed. Probably within a span of 50 yards, I saw five bigger than hell SUV's, lined up one after another, trolling the lot for that parking space closest to the door
Actually, high US dollar denominated energy prices spell much larger problems for the 'suburban' American lifestyle than the cost of filling the tank of a big SUV. The energy required for commuting fairly long distances to work is only one factor in a much larger equation that threatens the economic viablilty of 'suburban' America. You've also got the energy costs of heating and cooling large single family homes. You've also got the energy costs of transporting imported products to your local shopping mall. You've also got ethanol creating an equation where higher energy costs now automatically translate into higher food costs.
~
AudreyLeigh
03-03-2008, 03:47 PM
And I'm sure that scene was repeated in millions of grocery store parking lots across the country. What's it going to take to get this demographic to give up their precious not so little tanks? Four dollars a gallon? Five? Six?
$3.62 for a gallon of regular unleaded at cheap ass AM/PM here.... thank gosh I dont drive anywhere but my husband drives 2 hours each way 5 days a week so its killing us!!
Were going to get rid of the BMW and buy a Prius in the next few months. Were over spending $800 a month on gas!
We have the Maxima for comfort and style - we drive it locally (and i drive to work) but for long distances I care nothing about looks.
fancygirl
03-04-2008, 11:18 PM
I will be very curious about this car once it goes into mass production
(150 mpg). It's supposed to be out in a year.
TigersMilk
03-04-2008, 11:46 PM
^^Whoa thats so future looking. I wonder how much it will cost?
shasta
03-05-2008, 03:12 AM
I am glad I have a little civic hatch!
Melonie
03-05-2008, 04:13 AM
The Loremo super-mileage diesel or electric car is able to get the mileage it does by cutting the vehicle's weight to the bone. If Loremo follows along the lines of the Tesla roadster ( ) this means using materials like carbon fiber instead of steel etc. which adds significantly to the cost. Given that the Tesla is priced at $100k, I would guess that the Loremo would be in the $50k range.
The major hurdle with getting vehicle approvals for sale in the USA are the crash safety regulations. In most cases, taking out the steel frame to save weight and achieve super high mileage also makes the car perform very poorly in crash tests. This problem can be gotten around by using super-strong composite materials like the carbon fiber, but this has a big price tag associated with it. Vehicle approvals in the USA also carry a minimum size / power / speed requirement for traffic safety reasons which has so far kept out a whole class of vehicles that are available in Europe and Asia. I don't know if the 30hp diesel engine will fall short of this hurdle or not.
There are two other issues on the plate for hybrid and/or electric vehicles. The first is that the US taxpayer funded hybrid / electric vehicle tax credits only apply to the first 60,000 vehicles sold per year per manufacturer. Toyota exceeded the 60,000 limit last year, and a lot of 'late' Prius buyers were rather surprised when the $3000 (or whatever) tax credit didn't materialize. This is the true reason that you are now seeing car companies spring up that you've never heard of before ... because no single company will be able to sell more than 60,000 'affordable' hybrid or electric cars in the USA without the US taxpayer subsidy on the initial purchase price. What this implies in terms of longer term dealer service and support is a big question mark.
With the Tesla it has meant a relative handful of dealerships strategically located only in major cities, total car production that will never exceed 60,000 cars per year, and very high prices based on a manipulated 'short' supply of luxury high performance electric vehicles targeted towards the 'rich'. However, with Toyota, who already had an extensive dealer network and whose hybrids were aimed at the 'affordable' market sector, this meant 'rationing' one or two hybrids per month to the larger dealers. This also meant Toyota corporation taking losses on the sale of their 'affordable' hybrids, because they cut the profit margin to the bone in order to make the car seem as 'affordable' as possible (done as a corporate strategy to boost Toyota's 'green' image, but also requiring that the profits from sales of conventional Toyotas must subsidize the production of Toyota hybrids). Tesla, Loremo etc. are not in a position where they can sell 1-2% of their cars at break even or a loss (i.e. the Hybrids) and make up for it by selling 98-99% of conventional vehicles at a substantial profit, because the only type of cars Tesla and Loremo will be selling are subsidized electrics / hybrids. Thus in order to remain economically viable, Tesla and Loremo cars will need to be sold at a profit ... which means comparatively high pricing.
The second issue is the fact that a good part of the hybrid operating cost savings, and virtually all of an electric's operating cost savings, is due to the fact that the feds and the states presently collect 'road tax' by tacking on up to 87 cents per gallon to the pump price of gasoline. With the advent of hybrid / electric vehicles, and also with the advent of biofuel substitution, the feds and the states realize that they are losing money hand over fist on 'road tax'. As a result there are experments underway all over the place to collect 'road tax' by other methods. One of the most promising from the gov'ts standpoint is the mandatory GPS system used in the UK. This system drops the 'road tax' from fuel sales, but instead creates a 'road tax' bill based on miles driven ... with the added wrinkle that driving on major highways during rush hour can carry a far higher 'road tax' rate than driving on back roads. Simpler systems involve the state sending out an annual bill for 'road tax' based on annual miles recorded when the vehicle must be taken in for state inspection (times some vehicle specific tax rate factor that taxes heavy SUV's at a higher rate than subcompacts). When such a system replaces the current tax on fuel sales system, the present ability of hybrid / electric vehicle owners to dodge 'road tax' will come to an end, as well a significant portion of their current operating cost savings.
There is also a new phenomenon developing in the 'cost of ownership equation' for hybrid / electric cars - depreciation. It seems that the initial batch of hybrid vehicles has now been around long enough for the car loan companies, insurance underwriters, Kelly Blue Book etc. to realize that, unlike conventionally powered vehicles, when a hybrid / electric vehicle's battery pack and or electric motor(s) start reaching the 5 year / 100,000 mile point there is a high probability that a very costly battery pack and/or electric motor replacement suddenly pops up. So far Toyota has minimized the impact of this by voluntarily absorbing a shitload of warrantee replacement costs. However, there is no guarantee that Toyota will continue to do this in the future, or that other hybrid / electric car makers will do this at all. What this is translating into is that, instead of the somewhat flat 10 year depreciation curve that applies to conventionally powered vehicles, hybrid / electric vehicles are now being viewed on the basis of a steep 5 year depreciation curve - based on the assumption that, in the absence of voluntary warrantee coverage that may disappear, hybrid / electric vehicle owners are going to dump their vehicles at the 5 year 100k mile point rather than investing 25-30%+ of the vehicle's initial purchase price to replace batteries / motors etc. In terms of car loans / lease rates / resale value, this means that where a 5 year old conventional vehicle that sold new for $30k still being worth perhaps $10-$15k at the 5 year 100k mile point, a 5 year old hybrid / electric vehicle that sold new for $30k will be worth next to nothing (since at that point it basically needs to have $10k invested in new batteries / motors to get any more useful life out of it). From the would-be buyers' standpoint this means 6 year loans will not be written, and also means near zero trade-in value when a 5 year loan is paid off.
vonniestarrr
03-05-2008, 06:23 AM
after i left work today in San Francisco....saw a Shell station sign with $3.89 for Premium...glad i only need that good ol 87! still expensive as a pot of effin GOLD though. when i first bought my trusty saturn a few years ago, $20 would fill me up all the way. now it takes about $45+...AND i have to drive at least an hour to work each day. THEN back home....geez
Melonie
03-05-2008, 03:22 PM
^^^ funny that you should mention gold and gasoline in the same post. If you do a bit of historical research, you'll actually find that the price of a gallon of gasoline in terms of ounces of gold really hasn't changed all that much over the last decade.
what this really means of course is that the real 'purchasing power' of the US dollar versus other currencies and commodities has been rapidly declining over the same decade. What this also means is that US dollar investments in stocks / bonds / CD's / IRA's are declining in real 'purchasing power' almost as rapidly despite the fact that the number of dollars is increasing by some small percentage.
AudreyLeigh
03-05-2008, 03:32 PM
So does that mean I should hold barrels of gasoline for retirement?
Deogol
03-05-2008, 06:01 PM
So does that mean I should hold barrels of gasoline for retirement?
From the looks of things, ie. speculation in the petro market, you wouldn't be the only one.
Emily
03-05-2008, 08:36 PM
and you're also subsidized !!! Perhaps that Prius wouldn't seem such a good deal if buyers weren't being helped to pay for their Hybrids with thousands of dollars worth of other people's tax money, and if Prius owners were still being charged their fair share of 'road tax' based on miles driven rather than on gasoline purchased.
that was a nice too....I got a nice $800 credit back this year for that car.
But that was bonus. I love the car and that's enough reason to buy it....not because it was "a good deal."
CinammonGirl
03-05-2008, 11:29 PM
I heard it was going up 3.00 in chicago too this summer?
StuartL
03-10-2008, 09:42 AM
Very jealous...
I just worked it out to be roughly $8.05 per US gallon here in the UK currently!
whirlerz
03-15-2008, 08:16 AM
I heard it was going up 3.00 in chicago too this summer?
Right now, it's over $3.00, upwards of $3.39, depending on county tax>:(