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spiderman05
04-17-2006, 01:50 PM
Whenever a guy goes to a strip club his goal is to find a girl who provides the best dances and/or has the nicest personality. Taking erotism out of it, this is a pure combinatorial optimization problem. These problems are dealt with on an almost-daily basis by engineers, economists, mathematicians, managers, transport companies...

A combinatorial optimization problem can be described very simply as follows. You are given a set of entities (a countable set of entities to be more accurate, but that does not matter here). This is called the search space. A profit (or a cost) is associated with any of these entities. The goal is to choose an optimal entity, that is an entity with a maximum profit (and/or minimum cost) value. The optimization process is generally subject to some constraints. Entities that do not fulfill these constraints are discarded.

Also there are 2 types of optimal solutions: global optima are the best entities over the whole search space, whereas local optima are the best entities over a very restricted area of the search space, often called a neighborhood.

Now, let me apply these concepts to a specific domain that is strip clubs. Also, I will put myself on the client's side. I will apply the same concepts from a dancer's perspective in another post. I am not a dancer, as you might know by now, but I can still make guesses.

Our search space is the set of dancers in a given strip club. Each dancer is an entity by herself. The profit function is client satisfaction. A hardly-quantifiable goal that usually depends on variables like the nature and quality of private dances, the appearance of the dancer, her personality, whether she is honest or not...

There are 2 types of constraints, those related to dancers and those related to clients. An example of a dancer-related constraint is her body type. Some customers are not attracted by bigger girls and thus any girl fitting in this category (no word play was intended here) will be discarded by the client from the start. An example of a customer-related constraint is money. Customers usually have a limited amount of money to spend in strip clubs.

There are many techniques to solve combinatorial optimization problems. I am going to decribe 3 broad families of these techniques, applied to the problem at hand, namely finding the SC gem.

Exhaustive Search: Clients choosing this technique will have to try every girl in the club (subject to their predefined constraints) until they find the best dancer. With this technique, the client is sure to reach the global optimum entity. Nevertheless, there are some drawbacks. Notably, the client would need a lot of money and time to reach the best dancer. The problem becomes even harder as the number of dancers increases.

Random Walk Search: In this technique, clients will randomly choose the girls, then just keep those with a higher profit value. Also, in this technique, the client only explores a subset of the search space, say only 20% of working girls. Of course, the technique does not ensure reaching the global optimum. In general, random walk search has rather a poor performance.

Heuristics: This is a very broad family of techniques which sits in the middle between exhaustive search techniques and random walk techniques. Here the client will just explore a subset of the search space like in random walk. However, the client will try to base his decisions (i.e. buying or not a dance from a specific girl) on some educated guesses, such as:

1- Decisions based on previously-read reviews.
2- The dancer is being turned away by most of the other clients, then she must be bad.
3- The dancer did not spend more than 2 songs in the booths with clients, she must be bad.
4- The dancer is very busy, then she must be good. Typical masculine ego enters into play here as men tend to prefer hard-to-reach women.
5- The dancer has provided a very poor stage show or she looked very rude on stage, then she must be bad.

These criteria are generally combined together to make the final decision with a weight/priority associated to each criterion. My personal ordering of these criteria (with decreasing priority) goes like this: 5,2,1 (Here, I tend to give negative reviews a higher weight, but that's me), 3, 4 (actually when a dancer is busy, I forget about her that night, as I always wait to be approached by the girls and not the opposite).

Heuristics work pretty well if a nice combination of selection criteria is made. As the optimization goal itself is subjective, the best criteria combination also depends very tightly on the client. Heuristics allow to reach good entities at a reasonable cost. However, there is a problem with heuristics and this problem is called "Premature convergence towards a local optimum". Please allow me to introduce, this problem.

Remember that the client is just willing to try a fixed number of dancers, say 10 out of 40. He will ultimately order these girls with respect to his satisfaction and will choose, say 1 of these to become his regular. Our client just reached a local optimum here. The girl he chose is the best, when considering the sample he tried. However, the best dancer might be still waiting out there. We say that the client prematurely converged towards a local optimum, if he decided after just a few visits and a relatively small test set to choose his regular. The technique of escaping the trap of a local optimum is called hill climbing in optimization. More concretely, the client should accept, once in a while to take risks and try some, new seemingly-bad, dancers This will allow him to keep exploring the search space (though at constantly slower rates, to avoid going back to a random walk). Controlled randomization generally helps getting better entities if not the global optimum entity.

Finally, with the emergence of virtual revieweing communities, a new form of premature convergence has appeared. I coined the term "Collective premature convergence" to it. This is having a whole community converging to a small subset of dancers. The same girls are being reviewed over and over again. The majority of the dancers are just being ignored with no positive or not even negative reviews written about them. How to overcome collective premature convergence. That is an interesting reflection topic by itself.

Reflection Over.

velour1141
04-17-2006, 02:09 PM
Not to be mean.... but what's the point?

sassysummer
04-17-2006, 02:25 PM
^thank you, I was wondering the same thing :O

Phil-W
04-17-2006, 02:30 PM
Whenever a guy goes to a strip club his goal is to find a girl who provides the best dances and/or has the nicest personality.

Bit simplistic on our motive here, aren't we. Some go to strip venues because they want to "date a dancer", some go for sexual relief, some go [God help us], so they can feel "superior" to the dancers.


Our search space is the set of dancers in a given strip club. Each dancer is an entity by herself. The profit function is client satisfaction. A hardly-quantifiable goal that usually depends on variables like the nature and quality of private dances, the appearance of the dancer, her personality, whether she is honest or not...

That assumes customer tastes are systemic. Unfortunately, some like brunettes, some like redheads...Some like pert brests, some like big breasts....

Before I continue ad infinitum in this vein, I would suggest that combinetrics is not the best form of maths to apply to a strip venue - perhaps Chaos Theory is.

Now - Strange Attractors - there's a mathematical concept more appropriate to strip venues.

Phil ;-)

spiderman05
04-17-2006, 02:43 PM
That assumes customer tastes are systemic. Unfortunately, some like brunettes, some like redheads...Some like pert brests, some like big breasts....
Phil ;-)

No, customers tastes are not systematic. I am aware of that. Whatever you customers like is just inluded in your profit function.

PS. Sorry for those who do not get the point as this post is very specialized.

miabella
04-17-2006, 02:45 PM
bizarrely (and i do mean extremely bizarrely), i have had such a conversation with both a customer and my fiance (at different times, heh). curious that a post about it should turn up so randomly.

cinammonkisses
04-17-2006, 02:45 PM
^thank you, I was wondering the same thing :O

:rotfl: Dam, I actually refrained from first posting on this thread. The whole time I skimmed (yea it was a little to dry for me to read the entire thing) I kept thinking, "now what is the fuckin point" ::)

miabella
04-17-2006, 03:26 PM
the OP has quite a lot of larger-scale relevance to stripping and even sexwork as a whole. the OP just worded everything clumsily and may not in fact be aware of more extensive applications of his ideas/concepts.

greggy
04-17-2006, 03:27 PM
^^at least you skimmed, I stopped after the first two paragraphs and thought, "This has no point."

SecondChance
04-17-2006, 03:30 PM
I'll never look at Discrete Math in the same way ever again. LOL!

dlabtot
04-17-2006, 03:38 PM
the OP has quite a lot of larger-scale relevance to stripping and even sexwork as a whole. the OP just worded everything clumsily and may not in fact be aware of more extensive applications of his ideas/concepts.

He did say a lot of extremely obvious things in such a way that it seemed complicated. But I don't really see what the point is either.

Since you seem to feel that you know what the point is, perhaps you could share it with the rest of us.

spiderman05
04-17-2006, 03:42 PM
If you have no background in discrete maths you will not see any point for sure. It talks more to clients than to strippers. I guess, I will not submit my other post about strippers being optimizing machines as noone will likely get the point neither. I will try to keep my posts here down to earth next time. Sorry.

dlabtot
04-17-2006, 03:49 PM
^^ LOL a lot of people in academia say really obvious things, dress them up to look complicated, and then when challenged about it, act as if the problem is that the audience is incapable of understanding. Thanks for the demonstration.

spiderman05
04-17-2006, 04:04 PM
Stupid community and stupid strippers and jerks. Please remove my account from this board. Sorry that the strippers here do not have enough intelligence to understand this. I'll go back to merb a much smarter community than this one.

Have a nice life.

spiderman05
04-17-2006, 04:12 PM
I know this is the wrong place to post it as most of the members here are strippers and not clients. But anyways. I have nothing agains strippers, at least the ones who work in Montreal. US strippers tend to be more bitchy. Have a nice life loosers.
>:(>:(>:(>:(

This is the second part of my post on the application of combinatorial optimization to strip clubs. In my previous post, I put myself in the position of a strip club client and tried to discuss some techniques that may be applied by this client to get the best dancer of the strip bar, in a minimum time and without spending too much money.

Today I am going to put myself in the position of a dancer. It's been a while that I wanted to write this post, actually a series of posts where strippers and clients exchange roles. For strip club clients, strippers have always been a source of fantasy. These girls they see almost all-naked but who are still unreachable, or at least hardly reachable. Strippers on the other hand keep nourishing this illusion simply because it is good for their business. Again, taking erotism out of it, strippers are just regular girls who are trying to make money. Therefore, their main goal is to maximize their earnings, preferably in a minimum time. How do they or should they proceed? I will attempt to answer this question, based on some of my own observations and on conversations I had with some of these girls.

Some dancers, though a minority, try to apply an exhaustive search algorithm. These girls will try to talk to every single client in the club. Talking is not really the appropriate word. Actually the girl will approach every client in a systematic way, first table, then second table and so on. She will just ask the client if he wanted a dance with her. In the case of a very likely negative reply, she will just keep moving and exploring her search space, or should I say her clients space? This approach is very commercial and besides that it makes the girl look like she is desperate to get some money. Also, as this dancer is not taking her time to really talk to clients, their answer is very likely to be a blunt "NO", unless she has some other physical attributes or unless the client is a bit drunk and desperately horny or depressed. Things get worse for this dancer, if the client himself is applying rule "The dancer is being consistently turned away, then she must be bad." The poor girl will just get herself into an endless spiral of successive denials.

Some other dancers will never approach the clients or even show up on the floor. They just shy away after their shows. I've been always wondering how do these girls make money, maybe from a pool of regulars.

Most of the other strippers resort to a heuristic approach. When confronted with a new face, the dancer will try to make a quick assessement of the client's situation. First of all, does this client look friendly? Does he dress well? What is he drinking, some wine? some imported beer? or some vulgar local booze? Does the client look old with a secure financial situation or does he look too young which makes him a potential pennyless college or university student? Is the client sitting at the stage or at a table? Is he a regular? If so, does he buy dances from time to time or does he just come here to get drunk watching stage shows? If he is a regular client who buys dances, then does he always go with the same girls or is he willing to step into some wild and unknown territories? Of course, if this same client has been seen making trips to the booths then the dancer will forget all the previously-mentioned criteria and start hac in hora sine mora her "hunting" excursion.

The second step in this process and after securing a seat beside the promising client is to push this investigation a little bit further confirming or refuting some of the assumptions that let this dancer talk to this man at first place. The first question, second in worst case, is "What do you do for a living?" I don't know about you, but I rarely ask people I meet for the first time about their jobs. If you are working in some lucrative field then the cutie next to you will push her investigation a bit further. After all, you might have a good job but only some change in your pockets. What counts for the girl is the money you have NOW and not the balance of your banking account or the value of your stock options, if any. Then comes the "Have you been here for a long time?" question. Some variations are possible, like "Did you visit any other clubs before?" or "Did you talk to any other girls?". Here the stripper is obviously trying to guess the exact amount of money you have in your wallet. Personally, I don't like being asked this kind of questions, Though, I've always politely replied. The girl whould have slid the "How much money do you have right now?" question into the conversation and I would have not even noticed this question as I was already classifying all the previous ones in the same category.

The dancer has also to decide how much time should she spend talking to her client before asking him the fatal question. This depends on many factors, like how many dances will this client likely buy from her. If he's already a regular, then the stripper might already have a good estimation of this number. This also depends on how busy the club is. Many dancers will sit with the clients but will keep scanning the strip club for some other potential preys. And when I talk about scanning here, I am talking about a 360 degrees club coverage. I really hate it when I talk to a dancer while she keeps turning her head to the left, then to the right and ultimately turning around to see who is sitting behind us. I've always considered this and will always consider it as unpoliteness and a lack of respect towards the clients,

So this is the optimization algorithm used by some dancers I knew. Some parts of this post are delibaretely meant to be a caricature, but like any other caricature they are based on some truth. Finally, I know that there are many nice dancers in strip clubs who sometimes sit with a client just because they enjoy the company and despite the money they might be loosing while talking to this client. Some other dancers will suggest to come back later to give the customer a chance to make up his mind and maybe go for some other strippers. To answer the question asked in the title of this post, I think that most of the dancers I met at Cleopara's are not some monstreous emotionless optimizing machines. I also think that some other dancers will do anything to get the maximum amount of money from their clients. Some dancers are honest and some dancers have learned that manipulating the emotions of their most sensitive clients generally meant more bucks in their purses. The manipulating dancers topic deserves a post on its own. This would be my next thought.

kikin
04-17-2006, 04:14 PM
Stupid community and stupid strippers and jerks. Please remove my account from this board. Sorry that the strippers here do not have enough intelligence to understand this. I'll go back to merb a much smarter community than this one.

Have a nice life.
No...the idea of using such techical terms and knowledge is to "do it in a language that most everybody in the 'venue' at hand can easily understand".

If you can't or won't do that then you have failed to communicate. The true test of whether you truly know your stuff is being able to explain an intractable topic succinctly and successfully to those who don't know anything about it. Otherwise, you are just regurgitating ideas from a textbook which you are familiar with and can probably ace an exam in but don't really truly know in a fundamental way.

I hope you understand what I've just said.

;)

miabella
04-17-2006, 04:48 PM
angel, i am sure you feel terribly clever, but what you just wrote has been exhaustively analysed in numerous topics on this forum. nobody tried to say it was discrete maths, though. they just called it 'pros and cons of various hustle/sales techniques'

as for the originating post, about the nature of desire and how it is commoditised and all that stuff, you didn't really open up your topic in all its florid glory. which is a shame. perhaps if you put it in french? we have some montreal girls on this forum, and you claim they are so much kinder than other dancing girls.

threlayer
04-17-2006, 04:58 PM
Yeah, but what if she lies about what she will do in the VIP room? I'll try to figure out my angle here.

threlayer
04-17-2006, 05:02 PM
Sounds like part of a "Charlie" explanation for an episode of NUMB3RS. Now if we can only find a stripclub crime for the FBI.

FBR
04-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Good grief ::)

Most if not all the dancers here can size up a customer and his money potential in a heartbeat...and certainly a hell of a lot faster than it took you to write down all that blah blah. So I have to assume your postings are therapy for you rather than helpful information for them.

FBR

Phil-W
04-17-2006, 05:21 PM
This is the second part of my post on the application of combinatorial optimization to strip clubs. In my previous post, I put myself in the position of a strip club client and tried to discuss some techniques that may be applied by this client to get the best dancer of the strip bar, in a minimum time and without spending too much money.....

Continues for many paragraphs.....


And your point is?

Granted maths can be used to model the real world, and to provide theoretical solutions, but all I can see is analysis without conclusions being drawn.

I presume you can come up with descriptive equations to model the idealised behaviour for a dancer? Presumably, these can then be solved to give the optimum solution?

(A rather purplexed) Phil.

doc-catfish
04-17-2006, 05:29 PM
I'm sure we customers have all done in practice what Spidey described (whatever it was), but we perhaps have never conciously thought out the methods to our madness. And if we have thought it out and shared it with others on the board here, we more than likely explained it in laymen's terms.

Regardless of what side of the tiprail one is on, an understanding in discrete maths isn't exactly a prerequisite for success. I don't think people should be considered "unintelligent", "losers" or "bitchy" just because they don't speak nerd.

FBR
04-17-2006, 05:29 PM
A rather purplexed) Phil.

Dont be, Phil. Condensed it was just:

Dancer sees custie
Dancer scopes out his ability and willingness to stuff her garter
Dancer either stays or goes based upon that determination

The rest was blah blah

FBR

Blade
04-17-2006, 05:54 PM
I know this is the wrong place to post it as most of the members here are strippers and not clients. But anyways. I have nothing agains strippers, at least the ones who work in Montreal. US strippers tend to be more bitchy. Have a nice life loosers.
>:(>:(>:(>:(

Hey Brainiac....its losers not loosers, jeesh!You insult the members here and continue to post...but you wonder why we aren't welcoming you with open arms? Talk about book smart but no common sense

Deogol
04-17-2006, 06:36 PM
Hell, I am a mathematician and I have little interest in reading all of that.

yoda57us
04-17-2006, 06:41 PM
Strip clubs? I was told there would be no math.

I buy a dance, if it's good I keep going, if it's bad I stop. This has worked for me since the early 1980's.

leogirl876
04-17-2006, 06:49 PM
I really thought the same thing, I'm like "what are you talking about?" "what's your point?" We're talking about dancers and strip clubs not physics or mathematics or whatever it would be.

Casual Observer
04-17-2006, 08:10 PM
That is an interesting reflection topic by itself.

Reflection Over.

Upon what exactly were you reflecting? And there was nothing particularly interesting or compelling about your reflection or the topic either.


Stupid community and stupid strippers and jerks. Please remove my account from this board. Sorry that the strippers here do not have enough intelligence to understand this. I'll go back to merb a much smarter community than this one.


So because we can't penetrate your banal drivel (based on your misguided, pathetic attempts at injecting otherwise useful mathematical analyses into an entirely inappropriate application) in an obvious and transparent effort to demonstrate your ostensibly superior intelligence, we're collectively stupid?

When your second sentence starts with, "Taking erotism out of it," we all know you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about at least with regard to strippers and SCing and there's no point in trying to digest your quasi-scientific examination of a completely non-scientific endeavor. Using an analogy you would presume to understand, separating erotism from SCing is like separating numbers from math.

lopaw
04-17-2006, 09:34 PM
Hell, I am a mathematician and I have little interest in reading all of that.

I hear ya.....I'm an freakin' engineer and couldn't get through it.
Is there gonna be a quiz on this material later?
Dammit...I hate quizzes!

Richard_Head
04-17-2006, 10:23 PM
Seems like somebody, and I'm not naming names (okay it's spiderman), has apparently got way too much time on his hands. Doesn't putting that much thought into it take some of the fun out of it?

Susan Wayward
04-17-2006, 10:23 PM
Did any of you visit the blog? The comprehensive rundown and rating of the club's dancers is disturbing in its specificity.

Katrine
04-17-2006, 10:36 PM
I believe I'll re-visit this when I'm sober. Right now all of my strategic thinking is focused on smelling the 19 year old platinum blonde dominatrix on me ;)

Blade
04-17-2006, 10:57 PM
Did any of you visit the blog? The comprehensive rundown and rating of the club's dancers is disturbing in its specificity.The only thing missing was their preference of toilet paper

someonesmiles
04-17-2006, 11:50 PM
This guy reminds me of a fellow that my Pentecostal grandmother was friends with. He had an uncontrollable stuttering handicap save reciting passages from the bible aloud. Spidey has little problem with grammar and diction (albeit devoid of effective communication) while explaining his mathematical theory, but wreaks lingual havoc on the keyboard when questioned personally on application or pertinence.

Malcolm Gladwell said, "truly successful decision making relies on a balance between deliberate and instinctive thinking."

Perhaps the key is to be eloquent and witty when you're thinking instinctively, particularly when in a defensive mode - whether you're patron, stripper, or respondent.

Now, about that blond, Katrin...?

Phil-W
04-18-2006, 04:24 AM
Did any of you visit the blog? The comprehensive rundown and rating of the club's dancers is disturbing in its specificity.

Not to mention his lack of acknowledgement that the dancers are individuals, not just robotic strippers for his amusement.

Phil.

yoda57us
04-18-2006, 05:27 AM
I believe I'll re-visit this when I'm sober. Right now all of my strategic thinking is focused on smelling the 19 year old platinum blonde dominatrix on me ;)

Thanks Kat, that visual made it totally worth coming back to this thread.;)

yoda57us
04-18-2006, 05:43 AM
I know this is the wrong place to post it as most of the members here are strippers and not clients. But anyways. I have nothing agains strippers, at least the ones who work in Montreal. US strippers tend to be more bitchy. Have a nice life loosers.
>:(>:(>:(>:(


Dude, you can dress it up with as many theories and big words as you want. The paragrph above says it all. Clearly you don't like dancers very much or you wouldn't be looking to antagonize the women on SW by intentionally posting this drivel in the wrong place.

lunchbox
04-18-2006, 06:48 AM
Whenever a guy goes to a strip club his goal is to find a girl who provides the best dances and/or has the nicest personality. Taking erotism out of it, this is a pure combinatorial optimization problem. These problems are dealt with on an almost-daily basis by engineers, economists, mathematicians, managers, transport companies...
Your assesment here is worthless, making the rest of your post just a lot of words I didn't bother to read.

doc-catfish
04-18-2006, 08:33 AM
Did any of you visit the blog? The comprehensive rundown and rating of the club's dancers is disturbing in its specificity.
Oh, I wish I had one of those for road trips! :D

But of course, YMMV is always in play, so it would be about as useful as a ten year old phone book.

Katrine
04-18-2006, 09:25 PM
I'm an analytical person myself, but I've actually found out that applying a heuristic process to picking good spenders in a strip club will end up causing the stripper to spend a lot of time time sitting on her ass waiting for her "perfect discovery."

Any top sales-person will tell you that selling is about emotion as much as it is about persuasion. Monsieur, the experiences you've outlined in your blog appear consistent with this concept.

This is especially true in places like Austin and Houston, where blue-collar cowboy oil magnates and dot-com millionaires roam freely with trust-fund frat boys in cutoffs. One can never be too sure. Instinct and experience must come into play. You must be perceptive rather than judging (based on the Myers-Briggs definition, if that makes sense.)

In simplest terms, you can't judge a book by its cover. Some of my greatest clients have been young guys, blue-collar guys, non-caucasion guys, couples, etc...all of those analytical no-nos that an inexperienced dancer or clueless customer assumes are a waste of time....

yoda57us
04-19-2006, 04:35 AM
Well said Kat.

From a customers viewpoint I don't think you can eliminate emotion from the process of choosing who you want to spend money on a SC and you definitely can not remove eroticism as Spidey suggested in his initial post.

Over the years I have established criteria for what I look for in a dancer. This has worked for me often but certainly not all the time. Many times I have thrown that criteria out the window and had a great time when I least expected it. People are people, not just part of whatever demographic you may want to put them in.

I don't want to waste time sitting on my ass alone in a club anymore than a motivated dancer does. Buy a dancer a drink; chat for a bit, if you click with her buy a dance, if itís good buy more dances. It's a non-adversarial approach but it works pretty well if you have an open mind.

Having a good time with a dancer in a strip club, or with any woman, anywhere for that matter is not rocket science no matter how much effort you put into trying to make it that.

robertgrahammodel
04-20-2006, 06:12 AM
Taking erotism out of it....

And in an analysis of cuisine, a removal of flavor as a criterion would yield similarly profound insight.

Hint: Steps (1-100) Listen to girls

Hint: Step (101) Talk to girls.

mr_punk
04-22-2006, 07:02 AM
angel, i am sure you feel terribly clever, but what you just wrote has been exhaustively analysed in numerous topics on this forum. nobody tried to say it was discrete maths, though. they just called it 'pros and cons of various hustle/sales techniques'true.

Did any of you visit the blog? The comprehensive rundown and rating of the club's dancers is disturbing in its specificity.well, it's a dirty job, but someone has to do it. seriously, it may be a useful reference for a customer.

Not to mention his lack of acknowledgement that the dancers are individuals, not just robotic strippers for his amusement.careful, Phil. you might break a fingernail while wringing your hands.

When your second sentence starts with, "Taking erotism out of it," we all know you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about at least with regard to strippers and SCing and there's no point in trying to digest your quasi-scientific examination of a completely non-scientific endeavor.actually, i think he has a small point. many customers tend to be completely ruled by their emotions (ie: the little head) in the sc...not that there anything wrong with that. the problem is that many customers, let their their emotions take over the entire time while in the sc. at no point, during this time, does he ask himself, "is this stripper actually producing for me?". usually, this question doesn't come to mind until afterwards, long after the money is spent and he's on SCJ with a case of buyer's remorse. but hey, the next dance is always better than the last.